1 00:00:12,870 --> 00:00:16,460 Welcome to studying law around the world I'm Claudio Claus in 2 00:00:16,470 --> 00:00:19,360 each episode, I talk with lawyers, law students and 3 00:00:19,370 --> 00:00:22,750 professors from different parts of the world to talk about legal 4 00:00:22,760 --> 00:00:26,040 education, careers, and what the profession looks like in real 5 00:00:26,050 --> 00:00:28,980 life we talk about the hard parts, the surprises and the 6 00:00:28,990 --> 00:00:31,360 decisions that. Shaped their paths, whether. 7 00:00:31,370 --> 00:00:34,010 You're planning to study abroad, thinking about working in 8 00:00:34,020 --> 00:00:37,380 another legal system, or just curious about how law works 9 00:00:37,460 --> 00:00:40,590 around the world? This podcast is for you. 10 00:00:42,930 --> 00:00:45,940 Today I have the opportunity to speak with Greg McNab. 11 00:00:45,980 --> 00:00:49,540 He's a partner in Dentons Corporate Group and also the 12 00:00:49,550 --> 00:00:52,160 Canada Co Chair for Dentons Mining Group. 13 00:00:52,170 --> 00:00:55,490 He focuses his practice on public and private financing 14 00:00:55,500 --> 00:00:59,160 matters and services and cross-border joint ventures 15 00:00:59,170 --> 00:01:02,750 involving jurisdictions that include Asia, Australia, Africa 16 00:01:02,760 --> 00:01:05,540 and Canada among others. Thank you so much for being here 17 00:01:05,550 --> 00:01:06,640 today. Greg, thank you. 18 00:01:06,650 --> 00:01:08,980 It's a pleasure to be here and I look forward to our 19 00:01:08,990 --> 00:01:10,980 conversation. I really appreciate it and 20 00:01:10,990 --> 00:01:13,800 before we dive into the podcast, I'd love to hear a little bit 21 00:01:13,810 --> 00:01:15,720 more about you and I'm sure our listeners too. 22 00:01:15,780 --> 00:01:17,520 Can you tell us a little bit about your journey? 23 00:01:17,530 --> 00:01:19,820 I know that you have a background in engineering. 24 00:01:19,870 --> 00:01:21,780 How did you get from Engineering Charlotte? 25 00:01:22,090 --> 00:01:25,430 That's, that's a question I get asked a lot and it's, it's 26 00:01:25,440 --> 00:01:27,890 really a story of sort of nudges. 27 00:01:28,460 --> 00:01:30,830 My dad was an engineer in the steel business. 28 00:01:31,040 --> 00:01:33,130 So I thought that was a great place to start. 29 00:01:33,260 --> 00:01:37,150 I had the same love for cars, construction, electronics. 30 00:01:37,500 --> 00:01:40,840 So if I went to work as a an engineer, but knowing I wanted 31 00:01:40,850 --> 00:01:42,890 to do something different eventually with, with the 32 00:01:42,900 --> 00:01:46,210 engineering side of things. Then one day I was out with my 33 00:01:46,220 --> 00:01:49,110 brother who had joined the provincial police here in 34 00:01:49,120 --> 00:01:50,890 Ontario couple years before that. 35 00:01:50,900 --> 00:01:53,250 And he had one of his friends with him. 36 00:01:53,260 --> 00:01:56,190 And that friend was mentioned to me that the police were always 37 00:01:56,200 --> 00:01:58,980 looking for people to do basically engineering work. 38 00:01:58,990 --> 00:02:00,610 And so I hadn't heard of that before. 39 00:02:00,620 --> 00:02:04,190 But shortly after that, off I went and I switched over to I 40 00:02:04,200 --> 00:02:07,270 was a police officer basically doing engineering for the 41 00:02:07,280 --> 00:02:09,610 police. And then again, now that was 42 00:02:09,620 --> 00:02:12,490 exposing me more to the, the legal side of things as well as 43 00:02:12,500 --> 00:02:13,990 combining with the engineering side. 44 00:02:14,600 --> 00:02:18,320 But after about 7 years, I knew this wasn't exactly what I've 45 00:02:18,330 --> 00:02:20,070 been looking for. So I went back to law school 46 00:02:20,080 --> 00:02:22,830 then. And by by that stage, I knew the 47 00:02:22,840 --> 00:02:25,970 legal system quite well. And coming out of that, I was 48 00:02:25,980 --> 00:02:28,710 fortunate to end up by summer that McCarthy Tetrault and 49 00:02:28,720 --> 00:02:30,430 Toronto and had a great experience. 50 00:02:30,440 --> 00:02:34,120 I was working on all kinds of tech and mining and a files in 51 00:02:34,130 --> 00:02:37,850 that transition right into articling right through into 52 00:02:37,860 --> 00:02:40,390 associate associate work. And I think it was probably in 53 00:02:40,400 --> 00:02:45,740 my this year is an associate when when they Stelco 54 00:02:45,750 --> 00:02:47,260 restructuring came through the door. 55 00:02:47,270 --> 00:02:50,980 And Stelco at the time was one of the the two large Canadian 56 00:02:50,990 --> 00:02:53,060 steel companies and it was that out in Hamilton. 57 00:02:53,070 --> 00:02:57,640 And so that restructuring came through the door and the firm 58 00:02:57,650 --> 00:02:59,800 looked around and asked does anybody know anything about the 59 00:02:59,810 --> 00:03:02,100 steel business? And because of my prior 60 00:03:02,110 --> 00:03:05,480 experience, I did. And next thing you know, off I 61 00:03:05,490 --> 00:03:08,720 went and I went from working as an engineer at one steel company 62 00:03:08,730 --> 00:03:12,870 at the Fasco to working as a lawyer at the one across the 63 00:03:12,880 --> 00:03:14,880 street at Stelco. And so it was that was a 64 00:03:14,890 --> 00:03:18,220 fabulous experience for a relatively still junior warrior 65 00:03:18,230 --> 00:03:22,620 to be inside a large public company during a multinational 66 00:03:22,630 --> 00:03:25,060 restructuring. And so I was fortunate to to 67 00:03:25,070 --> 00:03:28,850 work with some amazing people both on the management team side 68 00:03:28,860 --> 00:03:31,540 and then at McCarthy's to help me sort of navigate that. 69 00:03:31,610 --> 00:03:34,910 And then there were, after it was over, they didn't have a 70 00:03:34,920 --> 00:03:38,830 legal team in house. And so I, I just switched over 71 00:03:38,840 --> 00:03:42,610 and I was invited to join the legal team as associate GC there 72 00:03:42,620 --> 00:03:44,700 at Stelco. And, and then over I went. 73 00:03:44,710 --> 00:03:47,570 And then I was just, I was loving my life in house for 74 00:03:47,640 --> 00:03:50,540 probably about two years. And then, but then I felt there 75 00:03:50,550 --> 00:03:52,610 was time to come back to private practice in Toronto. 76 00:03:53,520 --> 00:03:56,590 At that time I set up my sole proprietorship and was happily 77 00:03:56,600 --> 00:03:59,810 working away until a friend of mine called me one day and said, 78 00:04:00,100 --> 00:04:02,390 where are you? You need to come and meet me 79 00:04:02,440 --> 00:04:05,170 behind Brookfield Place. And I walked across there and 80 00:04:05,220 --> 00:04:08,160 sat down at the table and met a fellow named Nurhan Ache. 81 00:04:08,170 --> 00:04:11,600 And we was running the securities group at Baker 82 00:04:11,610 --> 00:04:14,550 McKenzie, who at that time was the only international law firm 83 00:04:14,600 --> 00:04:17,589 in Canada. And less than a month later I 84 00:04:17,600 --> 00:04:20,050 was over. I had joined Baker McKenzie and 85 00:04:20,060 --> 00:04:23,030 was working with their hand to grow the firms international 86 00:04:23,040 --> 00:04:26,750 practice out of Toronto. And then so I stayed there for 87 00:04:26,760 --> 00:04:30,870 almost 15 years focusing on mining, International Energy 88 00:04:30,880 --> 00:04:34,010 work and then had the opportunity to rejoin some old 89 00:04:34,020 --> 00:04:36,290 Baker friends who had moved across the dent since a couple 90 00:04:36,300 --> 00:04:37,840 of years later. And same kind of thing. 91 00:04:37,850 --> 00:04:40,340 I just kind of got a nudge and then next thing you know, I'm 92 00:04:40,350 --> 00:04:43,470 over with with this group again. So that's along with the way of 93 00:04:43,480 --> 00:04:47,270 explaining how I ended up basically doing engineering law 94 00:04:47,330 --> 00:04:50,210 for lack of a better way of putting it over at dentist, the 95 00:04:50,220 --> 00:04:52,400 largest international law firm in the world. 96 00:04:52,410 --> 00:04:55,000 So it's been great and as they say. 97 00:04:55,060 --> 00:04:57,910 Boy, I bad that's amazing. What it what an interesting 98 00:04:57,920 --> 00:05:00,340 career you've had. And I want to hear a little more 99 00:05:00,350 --> 00:05:02,700 about, you know, all the international deals you've been 100 00:05:02,710 --> 00:05:04,920 involved in. So when I was reading your bio, 101 00:05:04,930 --> 00:05:08,020 we just said that basically you've advised all 12 of the 102 00:05:08,030 --> 00:05:11,140 world and I often see your you're sharing a little bit of 103 00:05:11,150 --> 00:05:12,900 these experience on LinkedIn as well. 104 00:05:12,970 --> 00:05:16,260 And I want to hear from your perspective, what makes some of 105 00:05:16,270 --> 00:05:20,780 these cross-border transactions succeed when you look at all the 106 00:05:20,790 --> 00:05:23,710 different opportunities in in all the different deals that may 107 00:05:23,720 --> 00:05:25,130 happen? You're right. 108 00:05:25,140 --> 00:05:28,990 I mean, as soon as you start crossing a border, things become 109 00:05:29,040 --> 00:05:32,550 more sensitive, more complex and more trust. 110 00:05:32,640 --> 00:05:34,150 But that you have. To overcome. 111 00:05:34,160 --> 00:05:37,430 So even particularly now, I mean, the world, at least in my 112 00:05:37,440 --> 00:05:39,710 career until the last four or five years started with their 113 00:05:39,720 --> 00:05:42,810 the Russia, Ukraine conflict. Until that time, you know, 114 00:05:42,820 --> 00:05:45,090 things were relatively stable in terms of world events. 115 00:05:45,340 --> 00:05:48,970 But then, you know, we've just had this one after another of 116 00:05:48,980 --> 00:05:52,630 disruptions, I would call them. And you know, obviously there's 117 00:05:52,640 --> 00:05:55,210 a people side to it. And then there's also, which is 118 00:05:55,260 --> 00:05:58,270 obviously important, but there's also this disruption on 119 00:05:58,280 --> 00:06:00,990 business. And so, well, it's not just 120 00:06:01,000 --> 00:06:03,270 transactions that are underway at the time, but it's also stop 121 00:06:03,280 --> 00:06:06,530 watching management. That's right. 122 00:06:07,720 --> 00:06:12,400 They, they, it has become more complex, but in some ways, you 123 00:06:12,410 --> 00:06:15,400 know, that's kind of our job at Dentons to, is to navigate 124 00:06:15,410 --> 00:06:19,260 those, the, the business risks that are developing in real 125 00:06:19,270 --> 00:06:21,830 time. And, but also, I think it's, 126 00:06:21,920 --> 00:06:27,320 it's also part of our job to figure out the, to translate the 127 00:06:27,330 --> 00:06:30,030 culture from one end of a business transaction to the 128 00:06:30,040 --> 00:06:31,970 other end. So one of the reasons that, or 129 00:06:31,980 --> 00:06:34,650 one of the complexities is, is really the cultural part of it. 130 00:06:34,660 --> 00:06:37,200 So if, if I'm working with the Canadian company who's buying an 131 00:06:37,210 --> 00:06:40,030 Australian company, then sometimes it just comes down to 132 00:06:40,040 --> 00:06:42,580 clarifying. Do you know exactly what you're 133 00:06:42,590 --> 00:06:45,230 trying to do in Australia and how it's done there? 134 00:06:45,300 --> 00:06:49,330 And oftentimes people just think, I'm doing it here, I must 135 00:06:49,340 --> 00:06:50,710 be able to do it in another country. 136 00:06:50,720 --> 00:06:53,800 And then they're shocked and disappointed and to find out, 137 00:06:53,880 --> 00:06:55,930 but it's not quite that way and it doesn't work that way. 138 00:06:55,940 --> 00:06:59,490 Or, you know, going into some places like Japan, even things 139 00:06:59,500 --> 00:07:01,810 are just some things are just not culturally done or 140 00:07:01,820 --> 00:07:03,590 acceptable. And that could be a fundamental 141 00:07:03,600 --> 00:07:05,820 part of your business. And so the short answer to your 142 00:07:05,830 --> 00:07:09,150 question of like, you know, how do we, you know, how do we 143 00:07:09,160 --> 00:07:13,550 identify early on at least why something has a higher risk of 144 00:07:13,620 --> 00:07:16,070 failing than than others? I think it's homework. 145 00:07:16,080 --> 00:07:18,030 You, you have to to talk to people. 146 00:07:18,040 --> 00:07:20,990 You have to pick up the phone, say to somebody at the other end 147 00:07:21,000 --> 00:07:22,700 and then the other country, listen, this is what we're 148 00:07:22,710 --> 00:07:25,830 trying to do. And would it normally be 149 00:07:25,840 --> 00:07:27,610 allowed? Is there something we need to do 150 00:07:27,620 --> 00:07:30,090 to prepare to it? And how do we how do we speak to 151 00:07:30,100 --> 00:07:33,030 our clients and ensure that they understand that it's not quite 152 00:07:33,040 --> 00:07:34,470 as simple as as they want it to be? 153 00:07:34,480 --> 00:07:37,560 So I mean, I guess it's communication if, if I come down 154 00:07:37,570 --> 00:07:40,820 to it, it's just knowing what's what's going to happen at the 155 00:07:40,830 --> 00:07:42,690 other end of that transaction. Amazing. 156 00:07:42,740 --> 00:07:46,510 And and Greg, a lot of my audience here in the podcast are 157 00:07:46,520 --> 00:07:49,330 early career professionals. And I wanted to ask you, you 158 00:07:49,340 --> 00:07:52,230 know, there's all these different terms when we come and 159 00:07:52,240 --> 00:07:57,330 talk about regulations and and DNA's and and financing and all 160 00:07:57,340 --> 00:07:59,350 of that. And I wanted to ask you what 161 00:07:59,360 --> 00:08:03,150 does A day-to-day look like? You know, being at a major firm 162 00:08:03,160 --> 00:08:05,950 Co leading the global mining sector. 163 00:08:05,960 --> 00:08:07,740 In your case, what does that look like? 164 00:08:07,920 --> 00:08:09,510 What? What does the day-to-day? 165 00:08:09,520 --> 00:08:11,790 Is for you. Well, I mean that's the 166 00:08:11,800 --> 00:08:15,070 international stuff is almost a it's, it's partly a be careful 167 00:08:15,080 --> 00:08:17,770 what you ask for, right. So like, so a lot of my work and 168 00:08:17,780 --> 00:08:20,810 this is Canada, Australia. And so I think there I don't 169 00:08:20,820 --> 00:08:23,710 know that there's two worst time zones to have to pair up. 170 00:08:23,720 --> 00:08:27,750 So the the week starts on Sunday, late Sunday afternoon 171 00:08:27,760 --> 00:08:30,870 for Australians and then they they taper off Friday morning 172 00:08:30,880 --> 00:08:33,030 here. So it just extends your your 173 00:08:33,039 --> 00:08:35,450 work week. I used to do a lot of work in 174 00:08:35,460 --> 00:08:37,610 China as well. And so that all of that just 175 00:08:37,620 --> 00:08:40,890 means, you know, a lot of late night calls and, and time zone 176 00:08:40,900 --> 00:08:43,970 changes and it is what it is. So there's that, there's that 177 00:08:43,980 --> 00:08:46,800 part of it, there's that obvious part of it, but there's also 178 00:08:47,240 --> 00:08:50,410 the, the acceleration of demands. 179 00:08:50,420 --> 00:08:53,940 So by that I mean with technology, you know, some of it 180 00:08:53,950 --> 00:08:56,740 good meaning mainly the in ways to communicate. 181 00:08:56,810 --> 00:09:00,620 There's a, and the sensitivity to how quickly things can fail. 182 00:09:00,630 --> 00:09:04,400 There's this now pressure that I don't think was the same 20 or 183 00:09:04,410 --> 00:09:08,380 30 years ago to as soon as something kicks off to get it 184 00:09:08,390 --> 00:09:10,520 done as soon as possible, because there's so many reasons 185 00:09:10,530 --> 00:09:12,900 why it's something might fall apart. 186 00:09:12,910 --> 00:09:15,320 And you. And so as a result of that, it 187 00:09:15,330 --> 00:09:17,910 means you're working when you're on something. 188 00:09:17,920 --> 00:09:20,530 It really does mean you're probably working harder than you 189 00:09:20,540 --> 00:09:23,420 might have been 20 or 30 years ago because there's just so many 190 00:09:23,430 --> 00:09:25,870 ways to efficiently do that. You can now do zoom calls. 191 00:09:25,880 --> 00:09:29,410 You can now e-mail as nonstop. You can monitor things in real 192 00:09:29,420 --> 00:09:30,890 time. You've got data rooms that are 193 00:09:30,900 --> 00:09:33,690 constantly being updated. And So what the day-to-day looks 194 00:09:33,700 --> 00:09:37,690 like for us is usually it's being part of a team, knowing 195 00:09:37,700 --> 00:09:40,950 exactly what your role is, what, what part of this sort of 196 00:09:40,960 --> 00:09:43,750 overall puzzle or result you've been allocated. 197 00:09:43,960 --> 00:09:46,910 Taking ownership of it. And then trying to keep up and 198 00:09:46,920 --> 00:09:50,450 make sure that you know, when you're, when you're trusted with 199 00:09:50,500 --> 00:09:54,770 delivering part A of a solution that you take the time to, to 200 00:09:54,820 --> 00:09:57,850 know what it is that's being asked of you figure it out and 201 00:09:57,860 --> 00:10:00,990 then show up at the table when it, when all the pieces are sort 202 00:10:01,000 --> 00:10:04,000 of coming back together. And then, you know, as part of 203 00:10:04,010 --> 00:10:06,780 when, when that's an international piece, sometimes 204 00:10:06,790 --> 00:10:10,580 that that takes, that means you, you've got to take the extra 205 00:10:10,590 --> 00:10:14,040 time to understand, you know, how a different market works. 206 00:10:14,140 --> 00:10:16,840 Nobody's asking. We don't a dentist, we don't go 207 00:10:16,850 --> 00:10:19,910 around asking, you know, our young, young lawyers to all of a 208 00:10:19,920 --> 00:10:22,660 sudden become Japanese lawyers and Australian lawyers and 209 00:10:22,670 --> 00:10:26,160 everything else. But we, we do as part of the 210 00:10:26,230 --> 00:10:30,330 this international culture that we work in, you know, there we 211 00:10:30,340 --> 00:10:34,990 do ask them to figure out quickly how to, how to work with 212 00:10:35,060 --> 00:10:39,670 other offices, how to communicate efficiently and how 213 00:10:39,680 --> 00:10:43,260 to recognize when another office is sort of stuttering or putting 214 00:10:43,270 --> 00:10:46,870 up like something is starting to seem off to them about maybe 215 00:10:46,880 --> 00:10:49,100 they're, maybe there's a hurdle there that we hadn't thought 216 00:10:49,110 --> 00:10:53,640 about before. And it's, it's a, it's for young 217 00:10:53,650 --> 00:10:55,890 people, it can be a bit overwhelming, you know, because 218 00:10:55,900 --> 00:10:58,360 they're in some places you just start and you're all of a sudden 219 00:10:58,370 --> 00:11:00,300 you're, you're doing Ontario a lot and that's it. 220 00:11:00,350 --> 00:11:02,850 And now all of a sudden you're on international transactions 221 00:11:02,860 --> 00:11:05,130 and you're reading the report, the newspaper every morning and 222 00:11:05,140 --> 00:11:07,210 you're wondering, you know, what does this mean for our 223 00:11:07,220 --> 00:11:09,860 international clients? On the, on the bright side, you, 224 00:11:09,870 --> 00:11:13,060 you get exposure to legal systems around the world and, 225 00:11:13,190 --> 00:11:15,680 and working more importantly, working with colleagues around 226 00:11:15,690 --> 00:11:17,660 the world. And so you just see, much like 227 00:11:17,670 --> 00:11:21,690 I'm sure you do, Claudio, the, the bit, the practice of law and 228 00:11:21,700 --> 00:11:24,920 the business of law are very similar no matter where you go. 229 00:11:24,970 --> 00:11:27,000 Like, you know, a lot of the same issues. 230 00:11:27,010 --> 00:11:29,500 It's for young people starting out in their career. 231 00:11:29,590 --> 00:11:32,520 Sure, you might have different articling periods or whatever 232 00:11:32,530 --> 00:11:34,700 the equivalent is, but the process is the same. 233 00:11:35,320 --> 00:11:38,490 The stress is are the same and it's getting comfortable with 234 00:11:38,500 --> 00:11:41,740 with your knowledge and and what you can bring to the table. 235 00:11:41,750 --> 00:11:44,930 And and just being comfortable that saying this is my part of 236 00:11:44,940 --> 00:11:48,880 whatever it is, the transaction or the the result and taking 237 00:11:48,890 --> 00:11:52,490 ownership from for it and and delivering when, when it's your 238 00:11:52,500 --> 00:11:54,250 turn to to bring it to the table. 239 00:11:54,320 --> 00:11:58,430 Fantastic well, Greg, when we when we talk about mining and 240 00:11:58,440 --> 00:12:00,550 really does issues that it seemed that you work really 241 00:12:00,560 --> 00:12:02,690 closely to you. We are talking about you know 242 00:12:02,740 --> 00:12:06,530 critical minerals TSG climate change there there's so much 243 00:12:06,540 --> 00:12:10,310 going on everywhere in the Niels the geopolitical stuff. 244 00:12:10,360 --> 00:12:13,670 So, So what is really important for companies and lawyers should 245 00:12:13,680 --> 00:12:18,180 be looking out for right now and what you know might be just the 246 00:12:18,190 --> 00:12:19,060 noise. How? 247 00:12:19,070 --> 00:12:20,320 How do we? Filter that out. 248 00:12:20,390 --> 00:12:24,440 You know, that's, that's, that's a very good question because 249 00:12:24,490 --> 00:12:27,940 it's taken, it's taken the energy in the mining sectors a 250 00:12:27,950 --> 00:12:32,040 couple years to realize that those issues are not quite as 251 00:12:32,050 --> 00:12:35,040 different as they once thought and that they're also doing a 252 00:12:35,050 --> 00:12:39,600 better job than people thought. So when I go back 20 plus years 253 00:12:39,610 --> 00:12:43,040 ago, I started off, I was doing a lot of, we called it climate 254 00:12:43,050 --> 00:12:46,270 finance, but it's really climate change related law issues back 255 00:12:46,280 --> 00:12:48,320 then. And then along came ESG, which 256 00:12:48,330 --> 00:12:50,860 is a lot of the social license to operate things. 257 00:12:50,940 --> 00:12:53,340 And then there's obviously energy and mining. 258 00:12:53,550 --> 00:12:55,540 Those were very separate practices. 259 00:12:55,550 --> 00:12:58,980 So in the beginning, I worked in the climate change group at my 260 00:12:58,990 --> 00:13:01,230 Old Firm. I worked in the mining group and 261 00:13:01,240 --> 00:13:04,260 then there was this other ESG slash sustainability group that 262 00:13:04,270 --> 00:13:07,700 I also worked with, but those were very siloed because those 263 00:13:07,710 --> 00:13:11,060 discussions for were really different people within 264 00:13:11,150 --> 00:13:14,120 organizations talking about different issues and trying to 265 00:13:14,130 --> 00:13:16,120 solve what they thought were different problems. 266 00:13:16,190 --> 00:13:20,140 But then over the last, I'd say 7 or 8 years, all of that stuff 267 00:13:20,150 --> 00:13:23,840 is really come together. So now if you're, it's not just 268 00:13:23,850 --> 00:13:26,970 the mining in the, the energy sector, it's pretty much if 269 00:13:26,980 --> 00:13:29,630 you're in any industry or any company, you've got to ask 270 00:13:29,640 --> 00:13:34,220 yourself, you know it by, by the measurement of my stakeholders, 271 00:13:34,290 --> 00:13:37,370 am I doing the right thing? Am I doing, am I adding more 272 00:13:37,380 --> 00:13:39,850 than I'm taking away? And so for, I have to admit, 273 00:13:39,860 --> 00:13:42,310 when they're back in the early days of I was one of those 274 00:13:42,320 --> 00:13:45,860 people who said like, because I, I said, you've got to come back 275 00:13:45,870 --> 00:13:48,990 to first principles. When the term stakeholders first 276 00:13:49,000 --> 00:13:52,390 started getting getting used for lawyers, It was a frustrating 277 00:13:52,400 --> 00:13:55,080 term to hear because stakeholders that in the 278 00:13:55,090 --> 00:13:57,930 beginning, you were either a shareholder, you were a creditor 279 00:13:57,940 --> 00:14:02,140 of a corporation, you were a director and officer, or, you 280 00:14:02,150 --> 00:14:04,600 know, you were a government entity that had, you know, 281 00:14:04,610 --> 00:14:06,830 issued a permit. But all this stuff about people 282 00:14:06,840 --> 00:14:10,450 around the edges of stakeholders that didn't have a legal right 283 00:14:10,460 --> 00:14:13,340 to have an influence on your building or on your, on your 284 00:14:13,350 --> 00:14:15,650 corporation. The approach in the early days 285 00:14:15,660 --> 00:14:18,890 was, that's great that you don't think that I should be allowed 286 00:14:18,900 --> 00:14:21,270 to do this, but you don't have any say in what I'm doing 287 00:14:21,280 --> 00:14:22,790 because I only answer to the government. 288 00:14:22,800 --> 00:14:24,230 I only answer to my shareholders. 289 00:14:24,280 --> 00:14:26,910 But now we're in this place where the word stakeholders has 290 00:14:26,920 --> 00:14:29,360 evolved and suddenly out of the blue, you can have new 291 00:14:29,370 --> 00:14:32,500 stakeholders that get created just because you're, you know, 292 00:14:32,550 --> 00:14:35,960 you're in their area, you're in their country, you're in their 293 00:14:37,840 --> 00:14:42,850 that's, that's forced this morphing or amalgamation of ESG, 294 00:14:42,860 --> 00:14:45,730 climate change and sustainability stuff all into 295 00:14:45,740 --> 00:14:49,210 one umbrella of if as a corporation or as a business, 296 00:14:49,320 --> 00:14:51,690 are you doing right by your stakeholders? 297 00:14:51,700 --> 00:14:56,530 And so that's an evolving question because sometimes that 298 00:14:56,540 --> 00:15:00,070 means, you know, jobs means maybe you have to build a school 299 00:15:00,080 --> 00:15:03,130 or you have to build a highway. If you look at Northern Ontario, 300 00:15:03,200 --> 00:15:05,760 you know, where we're trying to evolve the Ring of Fire, it's 301 00:15:05,770 --> 00:15:08,540 going to involve education of, of people up there. 302 00:15:08,550 --> 00:15:10,420 It's going to involve highways, it's going to involve a lot of 303 00:15:10,430 --> 00:15:12,450 things. So we've, we're now in a place 304 00:15:12,460 --> 00:15:15,870 where the license to operate just about any business has 305 00:15:15,880 --> 00:15:19,570 become not only complicated, but it's become an evolving issue. 306 00:15:19,580 --> 00:15:23,020 And so as a, if you're, if you're advising companies and 307 00:15:23,110 --> 00:15:26,260 corporations on these issues, you're, you're, you're first 308 00:15:26,270 --> 00:15:29,500 advice is to them is generally is to listen to find out what it 309 00:15:29,510 --> 00:15:32,240 is that you're facing, whether or not there are solutions. 310 00:15:32,250 --> 00:15:34,760 Sometimes, sometimes there's strong partnerships that can 311 00:15:34,770 --> 00:15:38,000 evolve that you start off thinking of something as well, 312 00:15:38,010 --> 00:15:41,300 I've got to do this. And then you realize, holy cow, 313 00:15:41,310 --> 00:15:42,900 this actually works quite well for us. 314 00:15:42,910 --> 00:15:46,260 And, and it's actually a value add for our business. 315 00:15:46,390 --> 00:15:50,340 It's great for our employees. And so it's not always a cost of 316 00:15:50,350 --> 00:15:52,460 doing business. It's not always something that 317 00:15:52,470 --> 00:15:55,900 you wouldn't have done before. Sometimes you, you find out it 318 00:15:55,910 --> 00:15:58,540 can actually increase the strength of your business and 319 00:15:58,770 --> 00:16:01,720 the likelihood of getting the result that your, your business 320 00:16:01,730 --> 00:16:05,340 needs. So that's probably the the most 321 00:16:05,410 --> 00:16:09,650 complicated part of, of doing business as as any kind of an 322 00:16:09,660 --> 00:16:12,070 organization that has an impact on either people or the 323 00:16:12,080 --> 00:16:13,870 environment these days. Fantastic. 324 00:16:13,880 --> 00:16:15,250 Thank. Thank you so much for sharing 325 00:16:15,260 --> 00:16:17,430 that. I'm curious, I saw that you 326 00:16:17,440 --> 00:16:20,760 recently participated in the payback conference and and 327 00:16:20,770 --> 00:16:22,840 you've been very active in the field. 328 00:16:22,850 --> 00:16:26,540 So looking ahead and and really compounding on what you just 329 00:16:26,550 --> 00:16:29,180 mentioned on the stakeholders point, what do you think will 330 00:16:29,190 --> 00:16:33,360 define the next 10 years for Canada in this global resources 331 00:16:33,370 --> 00:16:35,640 space? So, you know, I think it really 332 00:16:35,650 --> 00:16:38,140 does come down to seizing the opportunity. 333 00:16:38,190 --> 00:16:40,500 So, and by that, I mean, two things. 334 00:16:40,590 --> 00:16:44,200 There's we obviously have a government, we have a Prime 335 00:16:44,210 --> 00:16:47,600 Minister who's just, you know, very recently committed finished 336 00:16:47,800 --> 00:16:51,030 a road trip working with a number of allied companies on 337 00:16:51,040 --> 00:16:53,780 creating alliances and relationships that are going to 338 00:16:53,790 --> 00:16:58,050 be based on extractive sector things, so mining and energy. 339 00:16:58,110 --> 00:17:03,320 So we, those are things that Canada has a lot of when, when 340 00:17:03,330 --> 00:17:08,400 we put those things to work, it generally will benefit all the 341 00:17:08,410 --> 00:17:10,140 other sectors in the in the country. 342 00:17:11,230 --> 00:17:15,280 By that I mean, if we're, if we're paying a lot of, if we're, 343 00:17:15,410 --> 00:17:18,900 if we're generating a lot of revenue, we can then we'll have 344 00:17:18,910 --> 00:17:21,660 a lot of money for then all the other social things that Canada 345 00:17:21,730 --> 00:17:23,800 likes to build off or the people that live here. 346 00:17:24,310 --> 00:17:26,790 Where are we going to seize the opportunity at the government 347 00:17:26,800 --> 00:17:31,740 level by either policy driven initiatives such as some some 348 00:17:31,750 --> 00:17:34,820 great, great conversations that we've had so far about, you 349 00:17:34,830 --> 00:17:38,200 know, for example, combining provincial and federal approval 350 00:17:38,210 --> 00:17:42,160 for energy and mining projects right now, we've historically 351 00:17:42,170 --> 00:17:45,460 used approvals at both levels. So you had to go through a 352 00:17:45,510 --> 00:17:47,460 provincial process on a federal process. 353 00:17:47,550 --> 00:17:50,970 Oftentimes, I mean, this is a municipal process, you're an 354 00:17:50,980 --> 00:17:54,040 indigenous community process. Our governments have identified 355 00:17:54,050 --> 00:17:56,450 that as a hurdle. And so we're trying to figure 356 00:17:56,460 --> 00:17:58,970 out is there is there faster, more efficient ways to do that. 357 00:17:58,980 --> 00:18:01,920 So that's one example of what we can do to seize this moment 358 00:18:01,930 --> 00:18:04,310 because if we don't seize it, there's going to be other 359 00:18:04,320 --> 00:18:06,390 countries are going to figure out how to do things faster. 360 00:18:06,460 --> 00:18:09,380 So we don't want to be looking in the rearview mirror thinking, 361 00:18:09,390 --> 00:18:10,770 you know, what it could have, should have. 362 00:18:10,880 --> 00:18:12,840 But then the others, that's the government piece. 363 00:18:12,850 --> 00:18:14,870 And so it seems like our government's firing on all 364 00:18:14,880 --> 00:18:16,890 cylinders, saying all the right things that we're just waiting 365 00:18:16,900 --> 00:18:19,970 for that to turn into action. But the government can only do 366 00:18:19,980 --> 00:18:20,980 so much. It's got it. 367 00:18:20,990 --> 00:18:26,330 You've then got to turn over the opportunity to companies who 368 00:18:26,400 --> 00:18:29,230 have a resource or have access to a resource and they've got to 369 00:18:29,240 --> 00:18:31,940 figure out how do we take advantage of that resource? 370 00:18:32,160 --> 00:18:33,670 And then it's over to the company. 371 00:18:33,740 --> 00:18:37,700 They've got, they've got to work efficiently with their, their 372 00:18:37,710 --> 00:18:41,020 officers, the directors, the boards, the people that, that 373 00:18:41,030 --> 00:18:43,140 live in the communities where they want to build something. 374 00:18:43,210 --> 00:18:44,460 And they've got to take it seriously. 375 00:18:44,470 --> 00:18:46,840 They've got to realize that this is a once in a lifetime 376 00:18:46,850 --> 00:18:49,280 opportunity for the company and for Canada. 377 00:18:49,350 --> 00:18:52,960 And they've got, they've got to invest in the, the time, the 378 00:18:52,970 --> 00:18:56,400 resources to make things happen faster and more efficiently. 379 00:18:56,410 --> 00:19:00,380 So, and I think that's what it's going to come down to is are we 380 00:19:00,390 --> 00:19:03,740 all ready to, to do what we, what we say we're good at? 381 00:19:04,050 --> 00:19:06,390 And I think, I think we are, because one of the things that 382 00:19:06,400 --> 00:19:08,420 we don't do as Canadians, and this won't surprise you, 383 00:19:08,430 --> 00:19:10,930 Claudio, is that one of the things we don't do as Canadians 384 00:19:10,940 --> 00:19:13,420 is brag very much. We're constantly saying sorry 385 00:19:13,430 --> 00:19:16,580 for things, but we don't, we don't pat ourselves on the back 386 00:19:16,590 --> 00:19:18,290 and say, you know what, we're actually quite good at that. 387 00:19:18,360 --> 00:19:22,420 And so in the extractive sector, when you look at the RSG track 388 00:19:22,430 --> 00:19:26,380 record from say, even I don't even need to go back more than 389 00:19:26,390 --> 00:19:28,880 say 10 years, we've made significant improvements. 390 00:19:28,890 --> 00:19:31,100 And so that's a selling feature for, for Canada. 391 00:19:31,110 --> 00:19:34,480 When would the Canadian brand, we're known as being technically 392 00:19:34,490 --> 00:19:38,060 smart and responsible. And so we, we need to sell that 393 00:19:38,070 --> 00:19:39,690 more. And so I think the moment it's 394 00:19:39,700 --> 00:19:42,910 right for us to, to invest in ourselves and just do more of 395 00:19:42,920 --> 00:19:46,100 what we're good at and what the world recognizes as, as, as 396 00:19:46,110 --> 00:19:48,920 being to that. And so far it's on, it's on all 397 00:19:48,930 --> 00:19:51,980 of us to in the sector now. Just just get on with it and 398 00:19:52,050 --> 00:19:54,340 stop talking and more doing. Amazing. 399 00:19:54,410 --> 00:19:58,540 And I've, I've observed you've built quite the interesting, you 400 00:19:58,550 --> 00:20:01,740 know, board work and partnerships throughout many 401 00:20:01,750 --> 00:20:03,830 organizations. Including the Canadian 402 00:20:03,840 --> 00:20:06,770 Australian Chamber of Commerce. So I wanted to ask you, 403 00:20:06,780 --> 00:20:09,190 throughout your career, what are some of the lessons that you 404 00:20:09,200 --> 00:20:12,990 learned about creating this last connections, this lasting 405 00:20:13,040 --> 00:20:15,410 relationships between law and business? 406 00:20:15,420 --> 00:20:19,010 So I mean that that's, you know, that's probably, when I look 407 00:20:19,020 --> 00:20:22,910 back on it, that's probably been one of the things that's, that's 408 00:20:22,920 --> 00:20:26,190 helped me the most of my career. Over the last 15 years, I've 409 00:20:26,200 --> 00:20:29,230 focused on 2 partnerships, one with the Canadian Australian 410 00:20:29,240 --> 00:20:32,090 Chamber of Commerce and one with the Brazil Canada Chamber of 411 00:20:32,100 --> 00:20:34,310 Commerce. And both have been incredible 412 00:20:34,320 --> 00:20:37,740 organizations to work with. In fact, the, my, my work with 413 00:20:37,750 --> 00:20:39,880 the Brazil Canada Chamber of Commerce, that's what's taking 414 00:20:39,890 --> 00:20:43,190 me to Brazil right now. The, what I get from that is 415 00:20:43,200 --> 00:20:44,870 working with both of those chambers. 416 00:20:44,920 --> 00:20:47,510 I understand client business much better. 417 00:20:47,520 --> 00:20:51,210 So when I, when I work with, with the chambers, I'm able to 418 00:20:51,220 --> 00:20:55,010 get in the middle of discussion. So I'm able to sit in a room and 419 00:20:55,020 --> 00:20:58,990 hear an entire industry talking about what their challenges are 420 00:20:59,000 --> 00:21:01,770 and what their headaches are. And so it allows us to kind of 421 00:21:01,780 --> 00:21:04,570 go away and, and refine our offerings. 422 00:21:04,580 --> 00:21:07,150 So when I'm working with clients, I'm then able to say, 423 00:21:07,400 --> 00:21:10,770 oh, you know what, when I was, I remember when we were working on 424 00:21:10,780 --> 00:21:14,610 this trade mission for XYZ to either Canada or Brazil or the 425 00:21:14,620 --> 00:21:16,370 reverse, those were the hot buttons. 426 00:21:16,380 --> 00:21:18,630 Those were the things that everybody kept complaining about 427 00:21:18,640 --> 00:21:21,030 over and over. And so if we've got a way to fix 428 00:21:21,040 --> 00:21:24,150 those, it'll help me. And in my sort of business 429 00:21:24,160 --> 00:21:27,540 day-to-day life as certain clients, dentists, I'll now have 430 00:21:27,550 --> 00:21:30,720 the experience of having listened to an industry group 431 00:21:30,770 --> 00:21:35,420 who has the time and the ability to sit and focus on identifying 432 00:21:35,430 --> 00:21:39,520 what are the two or three really big challenges for an industry. 433 00:21:39,710 --> 00:21:42,460 And now I've got the benefit of knowing and hearing about those 434 00:21:42,470 --> 00:21:44,440 first hand. And so that in the connections 435 00:21:44,450 --> 00:21:47,460 that those, those chambers provide to you, it's, it's 436 00:21:47,530 --> 00:21:50,410 absolutely incredible. You, you, you have access to 437 00:21:50,810 --> 00:21:54,930 conversations with people all over the world who are, you 438 00:21:54,940 --> 00:21:58,580 know, delighted to, to work with you and to help you sort of 439 00:21:58,590 --> 00:22:01,030 figure things out. And, and it's all in part 440 00:22:01,040 --> 00:22:04,240 because their lives are their business and their lives 441 00:22:04,250 --> 00:22:07,900 generally work better when they've got the same access to 442 00:22:07,950 --> 00:22:11,100 you as a resource when the conversation goes the other way. 443 00:22:11,110 --> 00:22:14,810 And so you're right, those those two chambers have been an 444 00:22:14,820 --> 00:22:18,310 amazing part of my career. And when looking back at it on, 445 00:22:18,400 --> 00:22:20,320 I'm grateful for the chance to work with both of. 446 00:22:20,330 --> 00:22:23,770 Them Fantastic. To wrap up today's episode, I 447 00:22:23,780 --> 00:22:26,530 wanted to ask you if there is one piece of advice that you 448 00:22:26,540 --> 00:22:30,340 would give to a young lawyer starting today, especially those 449 00:22:30,350 --> 00:22:32,390 that want to work across borders. 450 00:22:32,440 --> 00:22:35,710 You know what the and there's such pressure on, on young 451 00:22:35,720 --> 00:22:40,040 people getting into the career now that you know that I thought 452 00:22:40,050 --> 00:22:42,390 there was a pressure for me back when I started, but it's even 453 00:22:42,400 --> 00:22:43,850 more so now. And that's the pressure of 454 00:22:43,860 --> 00:22:46,350 thinking that you have to know everything instantly. 455 00:22:46,400 --> 00:22:49,250 And so whenever somebody asks their question, you know, you 456 00:22:49,260 --> 00:22:50,570 have to know off the top of your head. 457 00:22:50,740 --> 00:22:53,830 And so the one thing I've talked to young people about over the 458 00:22:53,840 --> 00:22:57,070 years is just getting comfortable saying, I don't know 459 00:22:57,080 --> 00:22:59,620 the answer to that, but I know where to look or I know who to 460 00:22:59,630 --> 00:23:01,600 talk to and I will come back to you. 461 00:23:01,670 --> 00:23:04,840 And so that that works, You don't, you don't have to say 462 00:23:04,850 --> 00:23:07,780 immediately off the top of your head what Section 21 of the 463 00:23:07,790 --> 00:23:11,600 Securities Act says or whatever. You just have to say with 464 00:23:11,610 --> 00:23:14,750 confidence that you don't know it, but you understand the issue 465 00:23:14,830 --> 00:23:16,650 and you will come back to somebody with it. 466 00:23:16,810 --> 00:23:19,520 And that works both inside and outside the firm because when 467 00:23:19,530 --> 00:23:23,910 you get asked by somebody who's leading a team that you're on or 468 00:23:23,990 --> 00:23:27,150 by a client who just has just called you out of the blue. 469 00:23:27,220 --> 00:23:30,830 And in both cases, the people you're dealing with, they just 470 00:23:30,840 --> 00:23:33,750 want to know that the issue is temporarily off their plate. 471 00:23:33,820 --> 00:23:36,580 And in good hands, that's it. They, they just want to know 472 00:23:36,590 --> 00:23:39,510 that they can go to the next thing on their To Do List and 473 00:23:39,520 --> 00:23:43,670 that you, Greg McNabb, have taken that, that previous issue 474 00:23:43,680 --> 00:23:45,580 and you've told them that you're going to come back with it. 475 00:23:45,590 --> 00:23:48,030 So whether or not it's declined or if it's the partner I was 476 00:23:48,040 --> 00:23:51,200 working with, they just know that you've got it now and that 477 00:23:51,210 --> 00:23:53,030 you will come back when you have a solution for it. 478 00:23:53,220 --> 00:23:56,770 So just for young people, just get good at saying that you will 479 00:23:56,780 --> 00:23:59,570 take ownership of something and you will figure it out and you 480 00:23:59,580 --> 00:24:02,430 will come back with an answer. And so that's all you got to do. 481 00:24:02,440 --> 00:24:05,710 Then you bought yourself all the time you need to go away and you 482 00:24:05,720 --> 00:24:08,620 don't have to think about it on the spot and you know, get all 483 00:24:08,630 --> 00:24:11,140 stressed about it and maybe say something that's not quite 484 00:24:11,150 --> 00:24:13,340 complete answer. So it's tough as a young person, 485 00:24:13,350 --> 00:24:17,000 but just be just get used to saying I don't know the answer. 486 00:24:17,050 --> 00:24:20,100 It's not as bad as you think and it reflects actually, it 487 00:24:20,110 --> 00:24:22,850 actually reflects well on you. So that would be my 1 tip for 488 00:24:22,860 --> 00:24:25,070 young people. Thank you so much for making the 489 00:24:25,080 --> 00:24:26,760 time to be in the podcast today, Greg. 490 00:24:26,970 --> 00:24:29,760 No, Claudia, it's a pleasure. And I, I'm, I'm grateful for the 491 00:24:29,770 --> 00:24:33,220 chance to speak with you again about all the stuff that's an 492 00:24:33,230 --> 00:24:36,670 exciting career. And I'm grateful for people like 493 00:24:36,680 --> 00:24:39,840 you that want to talk about the, the industry and, and how young 494 00:24:39,850 --> 00:24:41,910 people can succeed in it. So thanks again.