1 00:00:12,880 --> 00:00:16,450 Welcome to studying law around the world I'm Claudio Claus in 2 00:00:16,460 --> 00:00:19,350 each episode, I talk with lawyers, law students, and 3 00:00:19,360 --> 00:00:22,750 professors from different parts of the world to talk about legal 4 00:00:22,760 --> 00:00:26,040 education, careers, and what the profession looks like in real 5 00:00:26,050 --> 00:00:28,980 life we talk about the hard parts, the surprises, and the 6 00:00:28,990 --> 00:00:31,890 decisions that shaped their paths whether you're planning. 7 00:00:31,900 --> 00:00:35,090 To study abroad thinking about. Working in another legal system 8 00:00:35,160 --> 00:00:38,510 or just curious about how law works around the world? 9 00:00:38,720 --> 00:00:44,350 This podcast is for you. This episode of Studying War 10 00:00:44,360 --> 00:00:48,330 Around the World is proudly sponsored by ITL Prep from imant 11 00:00:48,380 --> 00:00:52,270 Exam Prep, the comprehensive resource designed specifically 12 00:00:52,320 --> 00:00:55,420 for internationally trained lawyers preparing for the Inca 13 00:00:55,430 --> 00:00:57,970 exams. We understand that the NCA 14 00:00:57,980 --> 00:01:00,170 accreditation journey can feel overwhelming. 15 00:01:00,300 --> 00:01:03,750 You can face many obstacles getting to success Courses that 16 00:01:03,760 --> 00:01:07,910 cost too much, offer too little, or leave you more confused than 17 00:01:07,920 --> 00:01:10,490 when you started. That's why Inland Exam Prep 18 00:01:10,500 --> 00:01:14,410 created ITIL Prep, a smarter, more reliable way to succeed. 19 00:01:14,460 --> 00:01:17,950 Our module based self study courses and expert LED review 20 00:01:17,960 --> 00:01:20,810 sessions are designed. 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Visit imans dot C today. 37 00:02:14,150 --> 00:02:20,950 That's emond and use promo code ITL 50 to claim your 50% 38 00:02:20,960 --> 00:02:23,840 discount on NCA exam preparation courses. 39 00:02:28,150 --> 00:02:31,260 Today I have the opportunity to interview Yoneda Tokyo. 40 00:02:31,430 --> 00:02:35,580 She is corporate lawyer and has a very, very interesting 41 00:02:35,590 --> 00:02:39,180 practice both in corporate and intellectual property law. 42 00:02:39,230 --> 00:02:42,470 She also is attack in innovation enthusiast. 43 00:02:42,550 --> 00:02:46,400 She works closely with innovative startups at all stage 44 00:02:46,410 --> 00:02:51,020 of their business all the way from a transactions inception up 45 00:02:51,030 --> 00:02:53,300 to going public transactions as well. 46 00:02:53,370 --> 00:02:55,980 So super excited to get, you know a little more about her 47 00:02:55,990 --> 00:02:59,720 story and her background and to start our podcast today. 48 00:02:59,790 --> 00:03:02,480 Wanted to thank you once again for joining us today, Anita. 49 00:03:02,570 --> 00:03:05,170 And I wanted to ask you if you could introduce yourself to your 50 00:03:05,180 --> 00:03:06,420 listeners. Absolutely. 51 00:03:06,430 --> 00:03:09,590 Thank you for inviting me so you don't need I'm gonna need to 52 00:03:09,680 --> 00:03:12,630 make corporate and technology lawyer at Ozzie Law, which is a 53 00:03:12,640 --> 00:03:15,030 boutique a technology law firm in Toronto. 54 00:03:15,300 --> 00:03:18,170 I work with startups at all stages of your business from 55 00:03:18,180 --> 00:03:21,860 inception after an exit with work that includes structuring 56 00:03:21,870 --> 00:03:26,630 their business, raising capital, restructuring up to up to a or 57 00:03:26,640 --> 00:03:30,110 go back to transactions. That includes a lot of the times 58 00:03:30,120 --> 00:03:32,510 that graphing technology agreements for them, employment, 59 00:03:32,520 --> 00:03:37,050 privacy, everything that they require to to grow and to exist. 60 00:03:37,500 --> 00:03:39,110 They may come to us with unique questions. 61 00:03:39,120 --> 00:03:42,330 So we're trying to always be ahead and anticipate their needs 62 00:03:42,440 --> 00:03:44,630 at the same time. I also lead the firms innovation 63 00:03:44,640 --> 00:03:49,030 projects, which includes testing software, implementing software, 64 00:03:49,240 --> 00:03:52,710 coming up with legal solutions, go back solutions internally 65 00:03:52,720 --> 00:03:55,960 that's our clients can benefit from and trying to structure 66 00:03:55,970 --> 00:03:59,830 legal services as a product. So clients know about can 67 00:03:59,840 --> 00:04:03,090 predict fees and you know exactly what they're getting 68 00:04:03,140 --> 00:04:04,470 with more predictable. Fees. 69 00:04:04,550 --> 00:04:06,950 Amazing. And from what I saw in your 70 00:04:06,960 --> 00:04:09,690 profile here as I was preparing for this podcast, I saw that 71 00:04:09,700 --> 00:04:12,670 you've practiced law both in Greece and Canada. 72 00:04:12,760 --> 00:04:15,650 So I'd love to hear a little bit more about, you know, this path 73 00:04:15,660 --> 00:04:19,850 from Athens to Toronto, and also what cultural or professional 74 00:04:19,860 --> 00:04:22,970 lenses you bring to your practice today. 75 00:04:23,540 --> 00:04:26,770 It wasn't a fast transition I would say. 76 00:04:26,880 --> 00:04:30,950 I mean, when I was it was 2015 and Grace was born July 77 00:04:30,960 --> 00:04:34,130 financial crisis and me and my friend down were considering 78 00:04:34,200 --> 00:04:37,110 options and when we looked online we're like, OK, it seems 79 00:04:37,120 --> 00:04:40,710 like there's an NCAA process there's some exams we'll write 80 00:04:40,720 --> 00:04:43,610 them and then what do we have to do some articling That's fine 81 00:04:43,620 --> 00:04:46,080 we'll do it. I mean it was like that easy 82 00:04:46,090 --> 00:04:49,720 scenario in our minds and when we moved here it was everything 83 00:04:49,730 --> 00:04:53,560 but that. So we had to navigate the the 84 00:04:53,620 --> 00:04:57,670 national committee accreditation process apply told that we are 85 00:04:57,680 --> 00:05:00,140 coming from civil law jurisdiction doesn't really 86 00:05:00,210 --> 00:05:03,500 sound not going to be as straightforward as we expected. 87 00:05:03,550 --> 00:05:06,520 And because we didn't study in chronology jurisdiction, we 88 00:05:06,530 --> 00:05:10,940 asked us to write to basically go back to school and we had 89 00:05:10,950 --> 00:05:14,620 just completed an LLM degree at that time and were like, do we 90 00:05:14,630 --> 00:05:18,150 really want to do another one? And so we did because it made 91 00:05:18,160 --> 00:05:23,450 sense at the time we did that. I then proceeded to try to 92 00:05:23,460 --> 00:05:25,750 navigate the system to find party cleaning. 93 00:05:25,800 --> 00:05:28,750 And then I ended up doing the low practice 1 placement. 94 00:05:28,820 --> 00:05:31,590 So it basically transitioned from litigation that was 95 00:05:31,600 --> 00:05:33,890 practicing back home to the corporate. 96 00:05:33,960 --> 00:05:37,650 And it wasn't an easy transition because people, basically people 97 00:05:37,660 --> 00:05:40,540 treat you in any event when you move countries that you don't, 98 00:05:40,550 --> 00:05:41,790 you don't have Canadian experience. 99 00:05:41,800 --> 00:05:43,630 So you're really starting from scratch. 100 00:05:43,640 --> 00:05:46,450 But even when you're more than when you're transitioning 101 00:05:46,460 --> 00:05:49,650 practice areas, they really treat you like someone who has 102 00:05:49,660 --> 00:05:51,810 no experience. And I think that's a mistake 103 00:05:51,820 --> 00:05:54,610 because when you practice before, you're bringing in that 104 00:05:54,620 --> 00:05:58,930 maturity and that's independent of work. 105 00:05:59,040 --> 00:06:02,630 And that translates to working with clients, even if you're in 106 00:06:02,640 --> 00:06:06,000 a different practice area. And that's not really recognized 107 00:06:06,010 --> 00:06:08,430 any law firm that I worked there, like I'm treating you as 108 00:06:08,440 --> 00:06:09,630 a junior. You don't know anything. 109 00:06:09,640 --> 00:06:11,310 I'm trading training from scratch. 110 00:06:11,360 --> 00:06:13,990 But you think that that maturity comes through. 111 00:06:14,000 --> 00:06:17,400 So I always tell employers to think about who they're hiring 112 00:06:17,410 --> 00:06:18,820 because they're coming with experience. 113 00:06:18,830 --> 00:06:20,990 So it's up to them to use that experience and instead of 114 00:06:21,000 --> 00:06:23,690 treating them and so on. So I feel like in terms of 115 00:06:23,700 --> 00:06:26,250 culture, cultural and professional lessons, besides 116 00:06:26,260 --> 00:06:28,450 the fact that this is a personality trait, but I feel 117 00:06:28,460 --> 00:06:32,470 like the responsibility that comes with you taking on a task 118 00:06:32,480 --> 00:06:35,990 and following through and building trust, being reliant on 119 00:06:36,000 --> 00:06:38,770 like when someone gives you something, you go ahead and do 120 00:06:38,780 --> 00:06:40,810 it and you don't reach that trust. 121 00:06:40,980 --> 00:06:44,630 Being some motivated throwing initiatives are really 122 00:06:44,640 --> 00:06:46,350 important. And I think those are things 123 00:06:46,360 --> 00:06:49,770 that I used to do back home that helped me grow in my career here 124 00:06:49,780 --> 00:06:53,070 as well. And you just mentioned the the 125 00:06:53,300 --> 00:06:56,530 matter zone on technology and law that you do in your current 126 00:06:56,540 --> 00:07:00,200 role and also Altro your career. So I wanted to ask you a little 127 00:07:00,210 --> 00:07:03,230 more about, about that. You know, you have a specific 128 00:07:03,240 --> 00:07:06,050 point that that, you know, you could say that it's when you 129 00:07:06,060 --> 00:07:09,550 first became interested in innovation or that has developed 130 00:07:09,560 --> 00:07:12,170 over the years. What's your experience like 131 00:07:12,220 --> 00:07:14,470 with, you know, innovation and technology? 132 00:07:14,560 --> 00:07:18,230 And how does that play a role in your practice and and in your 133 00:07:18,240 --> 00:07:19,430 approach? And the work. 134 00:07:19,500 --> 00:07:22,670 So I asked myself the same when did it start? 135 00:07:22,740 --> 00:07:27,820 And I think the earlier I can think about was when I graduated 136 00:07:27,830 --> 00:07:30,960 from law school, there was a team of us that we're trying to 137 00:07:30,970 --> 00:07:35,520 think in an entrepreneurial way. And at the time, police did not 138 00:07:35,530 --> 00:07:38,880 have a centralized system where you can search up recent 139 00:07:38,890 --> 00:07:41,080 legislative updates like case law. 140 00:07:41,270 --> 00:07:45,310 So we tried to digitize it. But there was some of us, one of 141 00:07:45,320 --> 00:07:48,280 us had security domain name and there was a team of us who 142 00:07:48,450 --> 00:07:51,880 whenever something published, we went and we updated. 143 00:07:51,890 --> 00:07:55,000 So it was like a big team. It was a volunteer initiative. 144 00:07:55,070 --> 00:07:57,920 It started kind of died because there was no funding. 145 00:07:57,930 --> 00:08:01,280 Everyone had a job. So kind of dropped it at the 146 00:08:01,290 --> 00:08:04,120 end. But I think that behind it came 147 00:08:04,130 --> 00:08:07,140 the realization that all of us were interested in, in more 148 00:08:07,150 --> 00:08:09,640 innovative way of practicing law, because at the time, you 149 00:08:09,650 --> 00:08:12,780 just go and find a journal that was published and find the case 150 00:08:12,790 --> 00:08:15,720 and read about it. And then moving forward, I had 151 00:08:15,730 --> 00:08:19,720 moved to Toronto when a team of us was based internationally got 152 00:08:19,730 --> 00:08:22,980 together and we're like, let's come up with the startup idea. 153 00:08:23,030 --> 00:08:26,340 So the idea we, we thought that there was a need in Greece at 154 00:08:26,350 --> 00:08:29,610 the time was connecting lawyers with other lawyers because the 155 00:08:29,620 --> 00:08:33,750 Greece is predominantly law firms are mostly small law 156 00:08:33,760 --> 00:08:35,720 firms. So they're not like big law 157 00:08:35,730 --> 00:08:38,289 firms that you will see here, like national firms, like 80% of 158 00:08:38,299 --> 00:08:42,220 the lawyers practice solo or in a, in a small setting. 159 00:08:42,289 --> 00:08:45,230 So when someone needs to delegate some work in a 160 00:08:45,240 --> 00:08:47,200 different city, they had to travel. 161 00:08:47,240 --> 00:08:50,060 So we're like, let's disconnect those wires into the platform. 162 00:08:50,130 --> 00:08:52,340 And this is how we came up, woke up. 163 00:08:52,350 --> 00:08:55,710 So which was lawyers connected through a platform. 164 00:08:55,840 --> 00:08:59,950 So we designed platform we had a developer we working OK, so 165 00:08:59,960 --> 00:09:02,210 crazy funds. All those issues have come up 166 00:09:02,220 --> 00:09:05,490 like founders disagreeing. We actually got some awards 167 00:09:05,600 --> 00:09:07,310 until that. I love that. 168 00:09:07,880 --> 00:09:09,460 Of course, the fact that everyone was based 169 00:09:09,470 --> 00:09:12,330 internationally different time zones that they do help and 170 00:09:12,820 --> 00:09:15,350 having multiple founders more than three I realized is an 171 00:09:15,360 --> 00:09:18,910 issue at some point there is friction and well that didn't 172 00:09:19,060 --> 00:09:22,510 last long, but I was left with great classes and at the time I 173 00:09:22,520 --> 00:09:26,130 was at Osgood and Osgood had launched this Institute for the 174 00:09:26,140 --> 00:09:29,410 future of law practice program partnership with the 175 00:09:29,420 --> 00:09:32,730 universities in Chicago and Colorado. 176 00:09:33,000 --> 00:09:36,490 So I had the opportunity to be the only LLM student that 177 00:09:36,560 --> 00:09:40,060 attended this I flip Institute for the future of law practice 178 00:09:40,070 --> 00:09:43,430 period would come at the Northwestern law in Chicago was 179 00:09:43,440 --> 00:09:47,120 an amazing program and we were speaking with the most 180 00:09:47,130 --> 00:09:50,020 forward-looking lawyers, our people in legal tech at the 181 00:09:50,030 --> 00:09:51,820 time. We did some coding. 182 00:09:51,830 --> 00:09:56,040 We were trying to think about how to solve solutions in legal 183 00:09:56,090 --> 00:09:58,700 in law through legal tech. So it was amazing. 184 00:09:58,710 --> 00:10:01,150 So when I came back, I'm like, well, this is however I should 185 00:10:01,160 --> 00:10:03,320 practice. It's more efficient fines are 186 00:10:03,330 --> 00:10:05,260 expecting predictability, all of that. 187 00:10:05,270 --> 00:10:08,280 That didn't really help me with OC's because I was talking in a 188 00:10:08,290 --> 00:10:11,110 language that no one understood. So in the end, after many rounds 189 00:10:11,120 --> 00:10:15,080 of PCI, I didn't really like fall into the traditional law 190 00:10:15,090 --> 00:10:17,060 student category. So that didn't really work out, 191 00:10:17,130 --> 00:10:20,120 But I knew that this is something, this is a way we can 192 00:10:20,200 --> 00:10:24,210 acts like being overlooking and implement technology in a way 193 00:10:24,220 --> 00:10:27,530 that's all solutions to those problems, but not necessarily 194 00:10:27,580 --> 00:10:30,530 not being the only solution. So I can explain a bit more what 195 00:10:30,540 --> 00:10:33,710 I mean by that. But generally after that stayed, 196 00:10:33,880 --> 00:10:36,370 I was, I did a couple of internships when Jones and the 197 00:10:36,380 --> 00:10:38,830 Mccarthys. And then after those were 198 00:10:38,840 --> 00:10:41,710 completed, I stayed on uncharted to do my law practice program 199 00:10:41,720 --> 00:10:45,670 placement to get qualified. And after I was qualified COVID 200 00:10:45,680 --> 00:10:47,710 heads. So I wasn't hired back. 201 00:10:47,780 --> 00:10:50,770 And then I found myself trying to navigate the, the Canadian 202 00:10:50,820 --> 00:10:52,770 legal market, the hidden legal market. 203 00:10:52,840 --> 00:10:54,870 And I was speaking with many lawyers and I was trying to 204 00:10:54,880 --> 00:10:58,420 understand the system and to see where I fit because I didn't see 205 00:10:58,430 --> 00:11:01,110 myself as a traditional lawyer, but I wanted to practice. 206 00:11:01,200 --> 00:11:06,390 So that's why I met when I met the magic partner at the firm 207 00:11:06,400 --> 00:11:09,260 that I'm at now, Alan Ozio. So we were talking about 208 00:11:09,270 --> 00:11:12,780 invasion and technology and he had built like this amazing law 209 00:11:12,790 --> 00:11:14,320 firm. Everything was automated. 210 00:11:14,370 --> 00:11:17,000 He was he was very forward-looking at the time, 211 00:11:17,010 --> 00:11:20,020 like Zoom meetings and everything before Zoom became 212 00:11:20,090 --> 00:11:21,950 like the only way to have meetings. 213 00:11:21,960 --> 00:11:25,050 And when we asked me, he said, OK, what if I give you an 214 00:11:25,060 --> 00:11:26,740 opportunity to work here? What would that be? 215 00:11:26,790 --> 00:11:30,290 I said, I think it would be a hybrid role where I'm like 80% 216 00:11:30,730 --> 00:11:33,620 or protect lawyer and 20% and innovation specialist. 217 00:11:33,670 --> 00:11:37,920 So he's like, OK, let's do it. So ever since I'm here and it's 218 00:11:37,930 --> 00:11:40,280 been a great opportunity, but I think this is my fifth year. 219 00:11:40,410 --> 00:11:42,140 Fantastic. What a story. 220 00:11:42,350 --> 00:11:45,720 You know, I'm sure that many professionals like me look up to 221 00:11:45,730 --> 00:11:47,220 you. I, I just, I mentioned to you 222 00:11:47,230 --> 00:11:50,280 that I had the opportunity to watch a panel in which you're 223 00:11:50,290 --> 00:11:53,460 presented back in 2022. And I still remember hearing a 224 00:11:53,470 --> 00:11:56,440 little bit about your story and how really in a way you carved 225 00:11:56,450 --> 00:12:00,160 out the role that, that you have today, which is so amazing. 226 00:12:00,250 --> 00:12:05,380 And I wanted to ask you thinking about early career professional. 227 00:12:05,570 --> 00:12:09,280 If if someone asked me about my advice, I would say generally 228 00:12:09,290 --> 00:12:12,680 don't follow any advice because sometimes that advice can be 229 00:12:12,690 --> 00:12:15,070 well meaning, but it can be discouraging because people 230 00:12:15,080 --> 00:12:17,340 aren't trying to tell you look out for this and that. 231 00:12:17,730 --> 00:12:21,310 If I eat one piece of advice that I would give is that don't 232 00:12:21,320 --> 00:12:23,800 be afraid to take up space because I speak with many 233 00:12:23,810 --> 00:12:26,380 foreign trained lawyers and they think that they are taking up my 234 00:12:26,390 --> 00:12:29,160 time or like I don't, I don't want to bother. 235 00:12:29,170 --> 00:12:31,820 I don't want to intrude. I I don't wanna reach out to 236 00:12:31,830 --> 00:12:33,790 this person. They're not going to respond or 237 00:12:33,860 --> 00:12:36,860 they're busy. Let that person decide you If 238 00:12:36,870 --> 00:12:40,790 you have to do one thing, you know what you want to do because 239 00:12:40,800 --> 00:12:43,190 you you are definitely going to take someone's time. 240 00:12:43,200 --> 00:12:45,690 So you better be working. I as people foreign trade 241 00:12:45,700 --> 00:12:47,910 lawyers all the time. I booked those mentoring calls 242 00:12:48,240 --> 00:12:52,190 and sometimes they're like, I don't know what I want to do and 243 00:12:52,200 --> 00:12:55,320 I'm like, I think you should figure that out because 244 00:12:55,330 --> 00:12:58,140 employers don't have time to sit with them and say, let's see 245 00:12:58,150 --> 00:12:59,580 what's what you find interesting. 246 00:12:59,690 --> 00:13:03,080 They really want you to be like, I did this back home and I 247 00:13:03,090 --> 00:13:05,430 enjoyed it and I want to keep doing this or I did this back 248 00:13:05,440 --> 00:13:07,440 home and I know that I'm not going to do this here. 249 00:13:07,450 --> 00:13:11,890 So I've tested XY and Z and I know that I will act like X and 250 00:13:11,900 --> 00:13:13,960 you do X. That's why I'm talking to you. 251 00:13:14,010 --> 00:13:16,140 So be specific. Don't be afraid to take up 252 00:13:16,150 --> 00:13:18,440 people's time. When in 2020 when I was 253 00:13:18,510 --> 00:13:21,600 networking like 2 full time jobs, I was meeting with 254 00:13:21,610 --> 00:13:25,680 practice group leads on Bay Street and their hourly rate was 255 00:13:25,690 --> 00:13:27,700 over 1000. And I'm like, you know what, you 256 00:13:27,710 --> 00:13:29,400 promised me half an hour I'm going to take. 257 00:13:29,590 --> 00:13:33,240 So during that I was specific in exactly what I'm asking them 258 00:13:33,370 --> 00:13:36,790 those professional, but I did not feel sorry or I did not feel 259 00:13:36,800 --> 00:13:41,510 apologetic or taking their time. So This is why I tell don't be 260 00:13:41,520 --> 00:13:44,020 shy, go for it. Know what you want and go for. 261 00:13:44,030 --> 00:13:48,130 It amazing advice, absolutely. And I know that beyond your 262 00:13:48,140 --> 00:13:51,310 professional practice or, or as a part of it as well, you're 263 00:13:51,320 --> 00:13:55,230 very much involved with multiple initiatives, including one that 264 00:13:55,240 --> 00:13:58,630 is called accelerate grease. So I see that there is like an 265 00:13:58,640 --> 00:14:03,250 innovation ecosystem, startups and all of that happening and, 266 00:14:03,260 --> 00:14:06,390 and I find it so awesome to see this kind of initiative 267 00:14:06,400 --> 00:14:09,190 happening in the city. So I wanted you to ask you a 268 00:14:09,200 --> 00:14:11,910 little bit about, you know, this, what excites you the most 269 00:14:11,920 --> 00:14:14,790 when you're working with founders, when you see people 270 00:14:14,800 --> 00:14:18,610 trying out and, and I guess you had that bang founding founder 271 00:14:18,620 --> 00:14:21,710 experience a little bit as well. So what is that like for you? 272 00:14:21,780 --> 00:14:23,890 So I think that there are two questions there, Accelerate 273 00:14:23,900 --> 00:14:26,970 Greece and working with founders or Accelerate Greece. 274 00:14:26,980 --> 00:14:30,310 This was a program that was launched by Peter Polidor, who 275 00:14:30,320 --> 00:14:34,370 is a entrepreneur investor. He's an, he's amazing and he 276 00:14:34,380 --> 00:14:38,010 built this program where he allowed break scale ups to 277 00:14:38,080 --> 00:14:40,100 apply. And she's basically the program 278 00:14:40,110 --> 00:14:43,150 selects 3 companies that can benefit from attending a 279 00:14:43,160 --> 00:14:45,570 weeklong program in, in North America. 280 00:14:45,580 --> 00:14:48,470 It used to be in California. Now we brought it to Toronto and 281 00:14:48,520 --> 00:14:51,290 we structure it as mentorship sessions. 282 00:14:51,300 --> 00:14:54,890 And in Toronto, we have partnered with Elevated as we 283 00:14:54,900 --> 00:14:58,510 allow our companies to, to access Elevate and, and their 284 00:14:58,560 --> 00:15:00,650 network. So investors, founders, 285 00:15:00,660 --> 00:15:02,390 etcetera. I think it's a great program 286 00:15:02,400 --> 00:15:05,120 because looking back it's from the cause. 287 00:15:05,130 --> 00:15:08,690 I've kept in touch with funds in Greece, companies in Greece. 288 00:15:08,820 --> 00:15:12,510 And what I'm seeing is that they are great at taking companies up 289 00:15:12,520 --> 00:15:16,370 to the next level, scaling like growing them, but the scaling is 290 00:15:16,380 --> 00:15:18,590 a different conversation. So then they don't have as many 291 00:15:18,600 --> 00:15:21,250 examples, which is more common in North America. 292 00:15:21,500 --> 00:15:25,140 So what we're thinking is, OK, let's put together our networks 293 00:15:25,150 --> 00:15:28,490 and see how we can help them make their products or services, 294 00:15:28,500 --> 00:15:31,570 introduce them to North American markets, create those 295 00:15:31,580 --> 00:15:34,220 partnerships, spend their presence, not necessarily leave 296 00:15:34,230 --> 00:15:37,870 Greece, but create another channel distribution of their 297 00:15:37,880 --> 00:15:40,070 services and products. And from the people that we've 298 00:15:40,080 --> 00:15:42,470 received so far, everyone's finding it very officials. 299 00:15:42,700 --> 00:15:46,550 When I left, I said, OK, I wanna get to a point in my life where 300 00:15:46,560 --> 00:15:51,000 I can give back because I wasn't I wasn't born in Greece. 301 00:15:51,010 --> 00:15:54,520 I was moved there when I was 10 and I really felt that 302 00:15:54,610 --> 00:15:57,640 hospitality and people giving to me. 303 00:15:57,650 --> 00:16:00,910 So when I left Greece in 2015, felt like I really want to get 304 00:16:00,920 --> 00:16:02,560 back. And this is a way of me getting 305 00:16:02,570 --> 00:16:05,560 back and working with founders and companies and technology 306 00:16:05,570 --> 00:16:08,960 companies because this is what I do on a day-to-day basis in my 307 00:16:08,970 --> 00:16:10,580 job. I felt like I could bring the 308 00:16:10,590 --> 00:16:13,220 perspective of, OK, let me tell you if she needs to do this 309 00:16:13,230 --> 00:16:16,040 properly, if you need it, not exit, but expand from Greece. 310 00:16:16,050 --> 00:16:19,570 What to investors want to see how are you structuring those 311 00:16:19,580 --> 00:16:21,360 agreements with the partnership agreements. 312 00:16:21,510 --> 00:16:23,920 So and I I love being part of their journey. 313 00:16:24,230 --> 00:16:27,260 This I feel like there are this stage where they need people, 314 00:16:27,270 --> 00:16:30,580 they need allies and I love being part of their growth. 315 00:16:30,590 --> 00:16:33,930 What is from working with companies, what I found like the 316 00:16:33,940 --> 00:16:37,120 most common thing it'll pattern that comes up when I represent 317 00:16:37,130 --> 00:16:39,830 clients is that they don't necessarily need a lawyer. 318 00:16:39,840 --> 00:16:42,400 They need a business advisor. And they come to you and they 319 00:16:42,410 --> 00:16:46,610 say like basically unload whatever, whatever problems they 320 00:16:46,620 --> 00:16:48,550 have that they think they have. And they're like, OK, I have 321 00:16:48,560 --> 00:16:51,650 these issues and I'm just bringing them to you. 322 00:16:51,700 --> 00:16:54,200 You structured them into what you think that should happen and 323 00:16:54,210 --> 00:16:55,330 tell me what to do. So. 324 00:16:55,340 --> 00:16:57,730 And as a lawyer, you don't, they don't necessarily care to say, 325 00:16:57,740 --> 00:17:00,930 OK, the law stands for this sense here or there. 326 00:17:00,980 --> 00:17:03,530 They need to know what is the best business decision. 327 00:17:03,760 --> 00:17:06,430 And sometimes they tell them this is what the law says. 328 00:17:06,560 --> 00:17:08,470 This is what makes sense from a business perspective 329 00:17:08,480 --> 00:17:10,450 perspective. And to get to this point, I feel 330 00:17:10,460 --> 00:17:13,109 like it has been the most rewarding part of my journey is 331 00:17:13,119 --> 00:17:16,849 lawyers just being lawyers. I feel like there's only so much 332 00:17:16,960 --> 00:17:20,260 4th place you can get becoming a business advisor. 333 00:17:20,319 --> 00:17:22,380 You can be someone who's indispensable. 334 00:17:22,650 --> 00:17:25,130 Fantastic. And I'd love to hear a little 335 00:17:25,140 --> 00:17:29,360 more about come On this date today practice and what that 336 00:17:29,370 --> 00:17:31,250 looks like. So you mentioned a little bit 337 00:17:31,260 --> 00:17:34,220 about this work we founders and we've talked about some of your 338 00:17:34,230 --> 00:17:36,000 work with technology and so forth. 339 00:17:36,090 --> 00:17:39,420 And, and I was curious to know too, is there such a thing as 340 00:17:39,430 --> 00:17:43,840 you know, a few common threads that you see that either in the 341 00:17:43,890 --> 00:17:48,620 legal side or in the advising slash strategy side for, for 342 00:17:48,630 --> 00:17:51,540 tech startups or or really startups in general, but when 343 00:17:51,550 --> 00:17:54,690 they're either entering or expanding in Canada? 344 00:17:55,010 --> 00:17:57,560 There I think there are some patterns and you can see them 345 00:17:57,570 --> 00:18:01,090 more and more obvious pattern when they are coming from civil 346 00:18:01,100 --> 00:18:05,570 or criminal law and this kind of goes against my advice to for 347 00:18:05,580 --> 00:18:07,850 entry and others when I tell them when you're interviewing 348 00:18:08,000 --> 00:18:11,890 stop emphasizing the differences focus on these similarities and 349 00:18:11,940 --> 00:18:15,650 to me having practiced in both ways civil law jurisdiction and 350 00:18:15,660 --> 00:18:18,170 common law. One I the way I explain it's 351 00:18:18,180 --> 00:18:23,030 like you, the judge, judges issue a decision, although in 352 00:18:23,130 --> 00:18:26,930 the Commonwealth system the decision becomes law in a civil 353 00:18:26,940 --> 00:18:30,340 authorization so that the law that judges of lower courts can 354 00:18:31,030 --> 00:18:33,900 disregard it because it's not law, they still follow it. 355 00:18:33,950 --> 00:18:37,820 So it's still used from an interpretation standpoint. 356 00:18:37,830 --> 00:18:42,790 Essentially, it's what it's how you recognize this decision. 357 00:18:42,850 --> 00:18:45,560 The effect is the same. We know the law, but it's still 358 00:18:45,650 --> 00:18:48,220 guiding guidance in how we interpret. 359 00:18:48,310 --> 00:18:50,200 Essentially, these systems are not any different. 360 00:18:50,280 --> 00:18:53,360 This is what I tell explain the differences when I'm 361 00:18:53,370 --> 00:18:56,120 interviewing or when when I speak with to inventors 362 00:18:56,210 --> 00:18:59,180 mentorship last session. At the same time, when I'm 363 00:18:59,230 --> 00:19:02,100 representing clients, I can see that when they're coming from a 364 00:19:02,110 --> 00:19:05,340 civil law jurisdiction, their agreements are much simpler. 365 00:19:05,450 --> 00:19:07,680 They don't really focus so much on the agreement because they 366 00:19:07,690 --> 00:19:10,880 can always rely on the Civil Code to interpret everything to 367 00:19:10,890 --> 00:19:14,140 when they come here, I tell them, OK, this is treat this as 368 00:19:14,150 --> 00:19:16,500 a more formal system of like everything needs to be in 369 00:19:16,510 --> 00:19:19,310 writing that agreement that you just it's like a two page 370 00:19:19,320 --> 00:19:21,630 agreement in your country. Here needs to be a 20 page 371 00:19:21,640 --> 00:19:25,770 document because here every decision court becomes law. 372 00:19:25,780 --> 00:19:27,720 So that affects how you interpret that agreement. 373 00:19:27,730 --> 00:19:30,010 So you have to be explicit. So this is 1. 374 00:19:30,140 --> 00:19:31,990 The second one is understanding the system. 375 00:19:32,200 --> 00:19:37,360 They might come. I think great Grace is it is a 376 00:19:37,370 --> 00:19:40,960 system where there's a lot of bureaucracy on how you achieve 377 00:19:40,970 --> 00:19:43,740 things like so like layers of approval. 378 00:19:43,830 --> 00:19:47,900 But at the same time, at times it seems more informal here. 379 00:19:47,910 --> 00:19:49,660 It seems like everything has to go by the book. 380 00:19:49,670 --> 00:19:52,720 So I tell them, like if you, if you want to, for example, to 381 00:19:52,730 --> 00:19:56,480 establish a subsidiary, there are ways for you to do this. 382 00:19:56,490 --> 00:19:59,660 If you want investors to treat you seriously, your structure, 383 00:19:59,670 --> 00:20:03,080 your IP, your value, you need to need to be clear in this 384 00:20:03,330 --> 00:20:06,840 subsidiary when when you're expanding here. 385 00:20:06,910 --> 00:20:09,900 And because you may have investors in your country back 386 00:20:09,910 --> 00:20:13,960 home or you might have assets in that company, you have to think 387 00:20:13,970 --> 00:20:17,070 about like strategically how you want to divide that value. 388 00:20:17,130 --> 00:20:18,980 So thinking through those considerations. 389 00:20:19,100 --> 00:20:20,860 Is what makes my job interesting. 390 00:20:20,910 --> 00:20:23,560 Also something that comes up a lot is pitting, but they come to 391 00:20:23,570 --> 00:20:26,440 me and they think that they have a clear idea and this comes up a 392 00:20:26,450 --> 00:20:29,020 lot in the countries in the companies that come through race 393 00:20:29,030 --> 00:20:32,150 during accelerate race. They think that what they sell 394 00:20:32,210 --> 00:20:34,710 is pretty clear. So on and tell them what you're 395 00:20:34,720 --> 00:20:37,320 in the business of what and they give me something and I'm like, 396 00:20:37,330 --> 00:20:40,190 what what does that mean? I don't I not in the industry, I 397 00:20:40,200 --> 00:20:43,880 don't understand and they keep it elaborating that doesn't add 398 00:20:43,890 --> 00:20:47,040 more clarity. So tell them there's a very easy 399 00:20:47,090 --> 00:20:49,170 a formula in what you're trying to describe. 400 00:20:49,180 --> 00:20:51,550 So you have to understand that formula on based on North 401 00:20:51,560 --> 00:20:53,440 American side. Good thing is another thing. 402 00:20:53,450 --> 00:20:56,590 And as I mentioned, understanding what your partners 403 00:20:56,600 --> 00:21:00,140 here, your investors here, your clients here are expecting to 404 00:21:00,150 --> 00:21:04,640 see in terms of standard of service or the way you structure 405 00:21:04,650 --> 00:21:06,740 those agreements with them, like your terms of use on the 406 00:21:06,750 --> 00:21:10,550 website, I don't know, less than agreement subscription shares, 407 00:21:10,560 --> 00:21:12,900 who's part of this company, how you cannot just be like a 408 00:21:12,910 --> 00:21:14,390 registered that you write names down. 409 00:21:14,400 --> 00:21:17,810 You have everything to happen properly improper agreements. 410 00:21:17,820 --> 00:21:19,770 So understanding those differences feel like it's it 411 00:21:19,780 --> 00:21:22,970 takes some educational component when you when you interact with 412 00:21:22,980 --> 00:21:26,590 those clients, you'll oftentimes takes more time to like and a 413 00:21:26,600 --> 00:21:29,790 lot more hand holding to bring them here and to help them 414 00:21:29,800 --> 00:21:31,610 succeed. Thank you for sharing that. 415 00:21:31,620 --> 00:21:35,830 I also wanted to ask you through your role on innovation projects 416 00:21:35,840 --> 00:21:39,090 and testing software and all of that, you know, what have you 417 00:21:39,100 --> 00:21:42,490 learned about bringing innovation into a law firm 418 00:21:42,500 --> 00:21:45,530 environment? You did mention that you joined 419 00:21:45,540 --> 00:21:49,060 a firm and was already known for being innovative, that they 420 00:21:49,070 --> 00:21:51,470 already had lots of automation going on. 421 00:21:51,560 --> 00:21:54,350 So I'm really curious, you know, what, what that felt like. 422 00:21:54,420 --> 00:21:57,850 I think that before I should preface this by saying that the 423 00:21:57,860 --> 00:22:01,490 firm that I joined was already ahead of what I was seeing out 424 00:22:01,500 --> 00:22:03,330 there. Jenna was speaking though, 425 00:22:03,340 --> 00:22:07,430 because I was, I was a larger firms before and we were testing 426 00:22:07,440 --> 00:22:10,580 automation tools or we were testing client service 427 00:22:10,590 --> 00:22:13,740 innovation in general, like how how you can be more innovative 428 00:22:13,750 --> 00:22:14,930 when you're serving your clients. 429 00:22:14,940 --> 00:22:18,190 And I think the difference is between between those larger 430 00:22:18,200 --> 00:22:20,910 firms and the smaller firm is the layers of approval. 431 00:22:21,140 --> 00:22:23,850 So you think about something, there are many layers of 432 00:22:23,860 --> 00:22:25,820 approval because there are many stakeholders involved. 433 00:22:25,830 --> 00:22:29,150 For example, in your large firm, you want to bring in a tool that 434 00:22:29,610 --> 00:22:32,560 that's the time that lawyers spend on drafting in half. 435 00:22:32,630 --> 00:22:37,500 How are you going to bring that revenue that will be missing if 436 00:22:37,510 --> 00:22:39,780 you do the work in half the time? 437 00:22:39,830 --> 00:22:42,380 So these are the things that you have to think holistically 438 00:22:42,430 --> 00:22:45,490 before you bring in technology at a smaller firm. 439 00:22:45,500 --> 00:22:48,700 At the same time, we're dealing with clients that's larger firms 440 00:22:48,710 --> 00:22:51,460 have clients have usually don't push back on bills. 441 00:22:51,470 --> 00:22:54,130 And now lately they have. So that's why they have thinking 442 00:22:54,140 --> 00:22:56,420 outside the box and to to bring more value to them. 443 00:22:56,470 --> 00:22:58,680 But so they are responding back pressure. 444 00:22:58,730 --> 00:23:02,030 But smaller firm always had that pressure because they're dealing 445 00:23:02,040 --> 00:23:03,920 with clients that don't want to be the flowers. 446 00:23:03,960 --> 00:23:07,340 So I'm I'm dealing with startups for bootstrap and they come to 447 00:23:07,350 --> 00:23:09,950 me and they say I need to know exactly how much I'm spending on 448 00:23:09,960 --> 00:23:11,900 this. Otherwise, I'm hiring you and as 449 00:23:11,910 --> 00:23:15,050 a lawyer that I'm as a lawyer as and I as an innovation 450 00:23:15,060 --> 00:23:17,850 specialist. I, I try to be accountable to 451 00:23:17,860 --> 00:23:21,310 both the client comes to me and they say, you said four or five 452 00:23:21,320 --> 00:23:23,010 hours. I'm not paying for more. 453 00:23:23,020 --> 00:23:25,450 So figure it out how you're going to make that happen and 454 00:23:25,460 --> 00:23:28,490 accountable to the firm because I cannot go and spend 10 hours 455 00:23:28,500 --> 00:23:32,570 and then write down my time. So that's, that's where the the 456 00:23:32,580 --> 00:23:34,850 conversation starts for bringing innovation in. 457 00:23:35,020 --> 00:23:38,650 How can we cut the time that basically is admin work like a 458 00:23:38,660 --> 00:23:41,250 president that we can perhaps automate with a simple 459 00:23:41,260 --> 00:23:43,830 questionnaire that has conditional logic that can just 460 00:23:43,840 --> 00:23:47,230 give you the first draft where you don't have to control F and 461 00:23:47,300 --> 00:23:50,110 replace the name of the client and spend half an hour on things 462 00:23:50,120 --> 00:23:51,990 that could have had the president ready. 463 00:23:52,080 --> 00:23:55,550 So because in any event, that time you could not have no 464 00:23:55,750 --> 00:23:59,050 fields to, to these clients, to the startup clients and how you 465 00:23:59,110 --> 00:24:01,670 otherwise bring value where you tell them, OK, this is a suite 466 00:24:01,680 --> 00:24:04,400 of documents. It took me 0 time to prepare 467 00:24:04,410 --> 00:24:07,490 because I can automate it and I can bring you the value of like 468 00:24:07,540 --> 00:24:11,040 spending the time on advising you instead of working on 469 00:24:11,050 --> 00:24:13,750 templates that in them by themselves, they don't really 470 00:24:13,760 --> 00:24:16,830 bring enough value if someone does not know how to use them. 471 00:24:16,880 --> 00:24:20,790 Generally it's and then thinking about what clients really need. 472 00:24:20,800 --> 00:24:24,630 They need, need business person. So you have to think as a 473 00:24:24,640 --> 00:24:27,870 business person where they come to you and they say, I'm going 474 00:24:27,880 --> 00:24:31,700 to keep you along in my journey. But you also have to understand 475 00:24:31,710 --> 00:24:34,560 that there are going to be times that I cannot really pay for 476 00:24:34,570 --> 00:24:36,330 your services. And those times are usually 477 00:24:36,340 --> 00:24:38,550 before they fundraise. So you have to think about how 478 00:24:38,560 --> 00:24:42,120 to help, I mean, those waves of before the fundraising or when 479 00:24:42,130 --> 00:24:44,620 they're bootstrapping. So I feel like this has me as 480 00:24:44,630 --> 00:24:46,860 more entrepreneurial. So when I implement technology 481 00:24:46,870 --> 00:24:49,990 of the firm, what I have in mind is the client and also which 482 00:24:50,070 --> 00:24:54,930 wants to get value for and pay less and the people that we're 483 00:24:54,940 --> 00:24:57,600 trying to help to give the value to the client. 484 00:24:57,610 --> 00:25:00,680 So it's our people. We don't want it to spend work 485 00:25:00,690 --> 00:25:03,570 time at work and they, they do admin work. 486 00:25:03,580 --> 00:25:06,320 They don't feel incentivized. They they could just be doing 487 00:25:06,330 --> 00:25:09,520 this anywhere else. You want them to eliminate all 488 00:25:09,530 --> 00:25:12,360 that admin and let them focus on the actual. 489 00:25:12,410 --> 00:25:14,160 So this is what we're trying to do when we're implementing 490 00:25:14,170 --> 00:25:16,360 tools, we're like, let's see, does it add value? 491 00:25:16,410 --> 00:25:18,230 So let's create a team of early adopters. 492 00:25:18,240 --> 00:25:21,180 Let's test it, let's get feedback and then let's, let's 493 00:25:21,190 --> 00:25:22,960 adopt it. And when we adopted, let's just 494 00:25:22,970 --> 00:25:26,130 have those recurring meetings like annually or whatever to see 495 00:25:26,140 --> 00:25:27,350 does it work? Does it not? 496 00:25:27,360 --> 00:25:30,500 What can we push back on? And this is like the exciting 497 00:25:30,510 --> 00:25:32,340 part because you're saying that you're making a difference in 498 00:25:32,350 --> 00:25:35,300 your clients life and in your. Colleagues life fantastic. 499 00:25:35,450 --> 00:25:39,230 Well, to to wrap up today's episode, you gave already a 500 00:25:39,240 --> 00:25:41,550 really, really nice piece of advice for people who are 501 00:25:41,560 --> 00:25:46,190 looking into occupying space and and really finding and carving 502 00:25:46,200 --> 00:25:48,910 out those opportunities. But I also wanted to ask you 503 00:25:48,920 --> 00:25:52,140 specifically in technology, intellectual property law, what 504 00:25:52,150 --> 00:25:55,630 trends should young lawyers be paying attention to if they want 505 00:25:55,640 --> 00:25:59,070 to build a future in this space? Are there a few things that you 506 00:25:59,080 --> 00:26:02,070 think that they should be looking into as early as 507 00:26:02,080 --> 00:26:04,370 possible? Types of like industry trends, I 508 00:26:04,380 --> 00:26:06,740 feel like they are always very visible. 509 00:26:06,810 --> 00:26:11,800 So in the couple of years ago it was metaverse NF's, now it's I 510 00:26:11,870 --> 00:26:15,180 so you kind of I think it's impossible to miss the, the 511 00:26:15,190 --> 00:26:18,060 advice would be just follow those queues and keep being 512 00:26:18,070 --> 00:26:21,580 curious and read about them. See how they affect generally 513 00:26:21,670 --> 00:26:24,740 how we practice law. For example, I now there's a big 514 00:26:24,750 --> 00:26:29,270 focus on AI, see how it affects privacy laws, cybersecurity, IP 515 00:26:29,280 --> 00:26:33,360 for all of those legal aspects and see how you can bring value 516 00:26:33,370 --> 00:26:35,540 from your experience. Like if you, if you have 517 00:26:35,550 --> 00:26:38,170 something in your background or in your prior legal experience 518 00:26:38,180 --> 00:26:41,450 that has touches on these areas, trying to see how you can find 519 00:26:41,460 --> 00:26:44,440 that angle, find that niche and bring your expertise into that. 520 00:26:44,530 --> 00:26:47,580 And for example, these are like industry specific, but if I'm 521 00:26:47,590 --> 00:26:51,460 talking about like technology or corporate and technology law, 522 00:26:51,650 --> 00:26:53,700 what I would say is like if someone is trying to get into 523 00:26:53,710 --> 00:26:57,230 those areas, a lot of other privacy, a lot of times people 524 00:26:57,240 --> 00:27:00,800 come to me and with buzzwords and they say, I like technology 525 00:27:00,890 --> 00:27:02,760 and I'm like, OK, So what do you think that I do? 526 00:27:02,800 --> 00:27:05,280 And they don't know. And that was me in the past 527 00:27:05,290 --> 00:27:08,220 where I approached lawyers and I said, I want to do startup law 528 00:27:08,230 --> 00:27:11,080 and I wanted to technology law. And then like, do you really 529 00:27:11,090 --> 00:27:14,400 know what that is? And I had a very big idea of 530 00:27:14,410 --> 00:27:16,860 what it was. But by speaking with them and 531 00:27:16,870 --> 00:27:20,420 getting concrete answers about what it was held me one find a 532 00:27:20,430 --> 00:27:22,420 job because I was knew what it meant. 533 00:27:22,430 --> 00:27:26,780 And to you to be more specific that I may not necessarily just 534 00:27:26,790 --> 00:27:28,770 want to do that. And initially I said that I 535 00:27:28,780 --> 00:27:31,760 would just want to start up law and technology law, startup law, 536 00:27:31,770 --> 00:27:33,650 it's basically heading to the start of things. 537 00:27:33,660 --> 00:27:37,100 Startups, the minimum they need to get started and go because 538 00:27:37,170 --> 00:27:39,380 they will fix everything when they fundraise, even if they 539 00:27:39,390 --> 00:27:42,060 have the absolute minimum 5 product in terms of legal 540 00:27:42,110 --> 00:27:44,700 documents, they will update everything when their products 541 00:27:44,710 --> 00:27:47,780 and technologies master service agreements as agreement, all of 542 00:27:47,790 --> 00:27:49,640 these things. How many of those do you want to 543 00:27:49,890 --> 00:27:52,080 prepare in your lifetime before you get bored? 544 00:27:52,090 --> 00:27:55,240 So I'm like, OK, now I understand that I like these not 545 00:27:55,250 --> 00:27:58,800 as a focus on the parts. So what I tell lawyers come to 546 00:27:58,810 --> 00:28:01,820 me and they want to get into space, know what you're talking 547 00:28:01,830 --> 00:28:03,780 about, speak with lawyers who are doing this. 548 00:28:03,830 --> 00:28:06,600 So you, you come out as more knowledgeable and knowing what 549 00:28:06,610 --> 00:28:08,980 you want. And now going back and after 550 00:28:08,990 --> 00:28:12,860 speaking with experts, like if you, it's easier, especially 551 00:28:12,870 --> 00:28:16,370 when in times of crisis, like during COVID, it's easier for 552 00:28:16,380 --> 00:28:19,430 you to sell yourself as a, as a generalist at the time, 553 00:28:19,440 --> 00:28:21,830 especially if you're a junior, because you are ready to wear 554 00:28:21,840 --> 00:28:25,350 whatever hat is needed to find a job to help the firm generate 555 00:28:25,360 --> 00:28:27,110 revenue. So understand what brings that 556 00:28:27,120 --> 00:28:29,120 revenue. And it might not be understood 557 00:28:29,130 --> 00:28:32,750 law, it may or may not, but more often than not, it's usually or 558 00:28:32,800 --> 00:28:34,350 restructuring. So those are the things that 559 00:28:34,360 --> 00:28:36,950 really create. So be open to doing all 560 00:28:36,960 --> 00:28:38,930 corporate work. So be ready to do those things 561 00:28:38,940 --> 00:28:41,040 and then you can specialize as you go. 562 00:28:41,100 --> 00:28:44,630 So I think it was the biggest lesson because I was always like 563 00:28:44,700 --> 00:28:48,510 niche innovation technology. And now it's like, let's go back 564 00:28:48,520 --> 00:28:51,380 to basics, corporate, commercial, know that well and 565 00:28:51,390 --> 00:28:54,490 apply that as you progress and you become an expert in your 566 00:28:54,500 --> 00:28:55,630 narrative. Fantastic. 567 00:28:55,640 --> 00:28:58,370 I really appreciate you taking the time to come and answer a 568 00:28:58,380 --> 00:29:01,100 few questions here on the test and thank you all for tuning 569 00:29:01,110 --> 00:29:03,360 into today's episode. Please thank you so much for 570 00:29:03,370 --> 00:29:06,720 inviting me, I hope everyone found it useful and everyone 571 00:29:06,790 --> 00:29:08,840 feel free to reach out have any questions.