1 00:00:12,880 --> 00:00:16,450 Welcome to studying law around the world I'm Claudio Claus in 2 00:00:16,460 --> 00:00:19,350 each episode, I talk with lawyers, law students, and 3 00:00:19,360 --> 00:00:22,750 professors from different parts of the world to talk about legal 4 00:00:22,760 --> 00:00:26,030 education, careers, and what the profession looks like in real 5 00:00:26,040 --> 00:00:28,980 life we talk about the hard parts, the surprises, and the 6 00:00:28,990 --> 00:00:31,880 decisions that shaped their paths whether you're planning. 7 00:00:31,890 --> 00:00:34,010 To study abroad. Thinking about working in 8 00:00:34,020 --> 00:00:37,370 another legal system or just curious about how law works 9 00:00:37,460 --> 00:00:40,590 around the world? This podcast is for you. 10 00:00:44,580 --> 00:00:47,530 So many of the guests on this podcast have talked about how 11 00:00:47,540 --> 00:00:50,550 important it is to have strong writing skills as a lawyer. 12 00:00:51,080 --> 00:00:54,480 It's true, written communication is essential in this profession, 13 00:00:55,190 --> 00:00:58,070 but it can also be one of the trickiest skills to master. 14 00:00:58,730 --> 00:01:01,480 If you find your writing feels a bit clunky, or you're getting a 15 00:01:01,490 --> 00:01:04,319 lot of edits on your work, or perhaps you're breaking into an 16 00:01:04,330 --> 00:01:07,440 English speaking jurisdiction for the first time, Grammatica 17 00:01:07,450 --> 00:01:10,570 International can help. I'm Rebecca Lockwood, the 18 00:01:10,580 --> 00:01:13,840 lawyer, mediator and educator behind Grammatica, and we help 19 00:01:13,850 --> 00:01:17,060 lawyers and law students to write more sharply, speak more 20 00:01:17,070 --> 00:01:19,920 clearly, and advance their careers with group training and 21 00:01:19,930 --> 00:01:22,700 one-on-one skills coaching designed just for legal 22 00:01:22,710 --> 00:01:25,020 professionals. I have worked with so many 23 00:01:25,030 --> 00:01:28,480 lawyers like you who are exceptionally smart, qualified 24 00:01:28,490 --> 00:01:31,500 and capable, but need a bit of guidance to stand out in a 25 00:01:31,510 --> 00:01:34,480 competitive legal market. And I get it myself, having 26 00:01:34,490 --> 00:01:37,680 lived and worked in five countries during my 17 years in 27 00:01:37,690 --> 00:01:40,400 law and education. Whether you're looking to 28 00:01:40,410 --> 00:01:43,660 sharpen your writing skills generally, refresh your CV, or 29 00:01:43,670 --> 00:01:47,010 draft an application for a law program, Grammatica can help. 30 00:01:47,280 --> 00:01:49,990 Visit gramatica.co to learn more. 31 00:01:56,690 --> 00:02:00,040 Today, I have the opportunity to host Emil Abedian, who founder 32 00:02:00,050 --> 00:02:03,660 and CEO of an accounting firm that is specialized in law 33 00:02:03,670 --> 00:02:05,860 firms. Thank you so much for joining us 34 00:02:05,870 --> 00:02:07,600 today. Very happy to have you today 35 00:02:07,610 --> 00:02:09,580 here. Thank you so much, Claudia. 36 00:02:09,590 --> 00:02:11,430 Thank you for having me. Appreciate it. 37 00:02:11,510 --> 00:02:14,130 And to start off our episode, I'd love to hear a little about 38 00:02:14,140 --> 00:02:15,380 you. Would you be able to introduce 39 00:02:15,390 --> 00:02:16,880 yourself to your audience please? 40 00:02:16,890 --> 00:02:19,710 Yeah, absolutely. I'm, I'm a male Claudio, as you 41 00:02:19,720 --> 00:02:24,220 know, I'm a, I'm a CPA and CPA for for many years starting my 42 00:02:24,230 --> 00:02:27,000 career back in Sweden where I grew up. 43 00:02:27,270 --> 00:02:31,300 That's what I was raised and graduated from university in 44 00:02:31,310 --> 00:02:35,300 Sweden, worked there for a few years at Ernst and Young at the 45 00:02:35,310 --> 00:02:38,120 Stockholm office before I decided to move out to 46 00:02:38,130 --> 00:02:43,260 California in 2007. So about 18 years ago when I 47 00:02:43,270 --> 00:02:47,940 moved out here and I started my career at the larger firm in in 48 00:02:47,950 --> 00:02:52,680 Los Angeles area and gradually moved over and started my own 49 00:02:52,790 --> 00:02:56,520 practice a few years later in So that that that's a little bit 50 00:02:56,530 --> 00:02:58,520 about me. I don't know how much how much 51 00:02:58,530 --> 00:03:01,700 more you want to know, but the professional background is where 52 00:03:01,710 --> 00:03:04,540 that it is. And we started when I first 53 00:03:04,550 --> 00:03:08,020 started my practice, it was just the general practice without 54 00:03:08,030 --> 00:03:10,480 really knowing what my nature would be. 55 00:03:10,490 --> 00:03:14,420 But we got into doing accounting and taxes for anybody who wanted 56 00:03:14,430 --> 00:03:17,800 my services, which we pretty soon realized that that was not 57 00:03:17,890 --> 00:03:20,890 did that was not the the way to grow business. 58 00:03:21,020 --> 00:03:23,570 My well, I, I guess we'll talk a little bit more about that down 59 00:03:23,580 --> 00:03:25,070 the line here. No worries. 60 00:03:25,080 --> 00:03:27,550 Well, you, you just censored, you know, the first question I 61 00:03:27,560 --> 00:03:29,980 was thinking about asking you about this, this transition from 62 00:03:29,990 --> 00:03:34,190 EFI to funding your own firm. So if I may go into I guess the 63 00:03:34,200 --> 00:03:37,510 next step then. So what motivated you to move 64 00:03:37,520 --> 00:03:40,750 into a practice that is focused on lawyers? 65 00:03:41,480 --> 00:03:46,500 As I mentioned when I first started, when I first started my 66 00:03:46,510 --> 00:03:50,670 own practice, the reason really I started my practice, the main 67 00:03:50,680 --> 00:03:53,030 reason was because I always wanted to do that. 68 00:03:53,040 --> 00:03:56,650 You know, I, I could see myself working initially gotta work for 69 00:03:56,660 --> 00:03:59,240 a firm obviously to get some experience and know what you're 70 00:03:59,250 --> 00:04:02,510 doing, but that was never my intention. 71 00:04:02,520 --> 00:04:06,410 I couldn't see myself being at the firm, larger firm like that 72 00:04:06,420 --> 00:04:10,930 than just be a part of a bigger organization and just follow 73 00:04:10,940 --> 00:04:14,970 what that organization is doing and want us to do. 74 00:04:14,980 --> 00:04:17,050 Back on my head, I always had it in my bed. 75 00:04:17,100 --> 00:04:21,850 I need to open up my practice. But in 2009, the reason I really 76 00:04:21,860 --> 00:04:23,950 did it at that time was because I got laid off. 77 00:04:24,120 --> 00:04:28,190 So I was brand new into in, in in the country here about two 78 00:04:28,200 --> 00:04:30,910 years brand new, not really brand new, but but two years 79 00:04:30,920 --> 00:04:34,810 into the country and about a month before I was getting 80 00:04:34,820 --> 00:04:39,450 married, we got laid off me 526 people of us at the firm at the 81 00:04:39,460 --> 00:04:41,480 same day. You're probably too young, but 82 00:04:41,490 --> 00:04:47,590 2008, seven, 8-9 was not good years, especially here here in 83 00:04:47,600 --> 00:04:51,070 the in America. So the firm let let a lot of us 84 00:04:51,080 --> 00:04:53,590 go. And that really triggered, 85 00:04:53,600 --> 00:04:57,910 triggered me to really push it and decide to open up my own 86 00:04:57,920 --> 00:05:00,930 practice at that time. And to answer your question now, 87 00:05:01,100 --> 00:05:03,810 why law firms? When I first thought I was here 88 00:05:03,820 --> 00:05:05,750 for two years, I didn't go to college years. 89 00:05:05,760 --> 00:05:08,130 I didn't know people from university. 90 00:05:08,140 --> 00:05:11,230 So my my connections were really limited. 91 00:05:11,240 --> 00:05:14,500 I didn't know there are people and was obviously that made it a 92 00:05:14,510 --> 00:05:17,780 lot harder for me to get clients that I wanted to work with. 93 00:05:17,830 --> 00:05:21,400 For that reason, I, I took on whatever client that wanted to 94 00:05:21,410 --> 00:05:24,700 work with me anywhere from individual tax preparation 95 00:05:24,710 --> 00:05:28,500 clients to larger businesses, which why had they experience 96 00:05:28,510 --> 00:05:31,740 with from both Ernst and Young and the firm I was working with 97 00:05:31,750 --> 00:05:34,800 here in California. But to get those kind of clients 98 00:05:34,810 --> 00:05:38,860 was not as easy because of my limitation in in relationships. 99 00:05:38,930 --> 00:05:43,240 So that said, you build a practice and pretty quickly the 100 00:05:43,250 --> 00:05:46,280 practice is growing. As professionals, we needed out 101 00:05:46,290 --> 00:05:50,300 there, as long as lawyers, CPA's, as long as you provide 102 00:05:50,310 --> 00:05:53,460 good service, the need is out there and it just comes back to 103 00:05:53,470 --> 00:05:58,460 you on how you really provide that service and how you provide 104 00:05:58,470 --> 00:06:02,010 that service in combination with the firm that you want to build. 105 00:06:02,060 --> 00:06:05,550 Those are two different things. You can grow firm significantly, 106 00:06:05,560 --> 00:06:08,760 which I was doing at that time, but not the way I wanted to 107 00:06:08,770 --> 00:06:10,750 build the firm. I was building it because I had 108 00:06:10,760 --> 00:06:12,340 to build it. I needed money, I needed to 109 00:06:12,350 --> 00:06:13,990 survive. We just got married and all 110 00:06:14,000 --> 00:06:16,100 that. But you realize that this is 111 00:06:16,110 --> 00:06:19,530 not, at least for me, this is not the firm I wanna build. 112 00:06:19,580 --> 00:06:22,450 I want more structured firm. I want to be able to provide 113 00:06:22,460 --> 00:06:26,720 value to my clients more than just prepare tax returns or give 114 00:06:26,730 --> 00:06:28,470 them a set of financial statements. 115 00:06:28,540 --> 00:06:30,890 That's not exciting. At least for me, that was not 116 00:06:30,900 --> 00:06:33,350 exciting. So after thinking through it 117 00:06:33,360 --> 00:06:37,490 long and hard enough, I decided to get into the law firm 118 00:06:37,500 --> 00:06:39,960 industry partially because it was a coincidence. 119 00:06:40,030 --> 00:06:43,190 When I started working with lawyers and lawyers saw that we 120 00:06:43,200 --> 00:06:45,410 were providing good service, they were start they start 121 00:06:45,420 --> 00:06:48,910 referring us other lawyers. So the book of business of law, 122 00:06:48,920 --> 00:06:51,330 law firms increased significantly. 123 00:06:51,670 --> 00:06:55,930 So and with that, the more you do something, the more you learn 124 00:06:55,980 --> 00:06:58,290 that industry. Obviously, we started learning 125 00:06:58,300 --> 00:07:04,210 small nuances and small details that lawyers need that not 126 00:07:04,220 --> 00:07:08,470 necessarily doctor or dentist or an architect or contractor needs 127 00:07:08,480 --> 00:07:10,650 the same way. So we got into the law firm 128 00:07:10,660 --> 00:07:14,870 industry and kept kept on developing our skills within the 129 00:07:14,880 --> 00:07:19,090 industry and provide more and more services with lawyers. 130 00:07:19,160 --> 00:07:23,490 But at the same time, I still had my regular general practice. 131 00:07:23,580 --> 00:07:25,350 So I was kind of going hand in hand. 132 00:07:25,360 --> 00:07:29,740 I was doing both law firms and non law firms client until last 133 00:07:29,750 --> 00:07:33,690 year, about over a year ago where I decided to cut the 134 00:07:33,700 --> 00:07:36,570 strings totally. It took me a long time to really 135 00:07:36,580 --> 00:07:40,570 cut the string, but I did it right now for the past over a 136 00:07:40,580 --> 00:07:43,350 year now we are only working the law firm. 137 00:07:43,360 --> 00:07:46,410 So if any other client knocks on the door would not working with 138 00:07:46,420 --> 00:07:48,430 them. We're not taking them on unless 139 00:07:48,440 --> 00:07:51,350 there's a direct relationship to a law from client to ours. 140 00:07:51,360 --> 00:07:55,010 Obviously if your lawyer and your spouse is a dentist, we 141 00:07:55,020 --> 00:07:59,370 help you with your spouses accounting and taxes also 142 00:07:59,380 --> 00:08:02,090 because the planning goes kind of handy hand. 143 00:08:02,200 --> 00:08:05,000 But we would not work with the dentist if they knock on the 144 00:08:05,010 --> 00:08:07,410 door right now. And the reason for that, 145 00:08:07,480 --> 00:08:11,260 Claudia, in my opinion is it's been, it's been absolutely 146 00:08:11,330 --> 00:08:14,520 phenomenal to do it by the way, to actually pull the trigger and 147 00:08:14,530 --> 00:08:18,260 just do one thing and one thing great is to be able to provide a 148 00:08:18,270 --> 00:08:20,420 value. The reason is to be able to 149 00:08:20,430 --> 00:08:23,760 provide value. And when you do provide value, 150 00:08:23,810 --> 00:08:26,440 clients come. There is no way you would not 151 00:08:26,450 --> 00:08:29,760 grow a firm within the legal industry, accounting industry, 152 00:08:29,770 --> 00:08:33,240 whatever, whatever work you do. But if you provide value to your 153 00:08:33,309 --> 00:08:36,299 clients, the clients will come 100%. 154 00:08:36,309 --> 00:08:40,159 And it feels, feels just great to have done that in the past, 155 00:08:40,169 --> 00:08:41,780 past year here. Fantastic. 156 00:08:41,830 --> 00:08:44,660 Taking all of that into consideration and as you look 157 00:08:44,670 --> 00:08:48,340 back into your experience, if I may ask you, was there a big 158 00:08:48,350 --> 00:08:51,720 turning point as well in your career that that helped in any 159 00:08:51,730 --> 00:08:55,230 way the way you advise your clients nowadays and especially 160 00:08:55,240 --> 00:08:57,930 focusing on law firms? Now you know, the, the way that 161 00:08:57,980 --> 00:09:02,090 the business world is going and moving forward, people are 162 00:09:02,140 --> 00:09:05,250 there, they need advice. You know, we're getting more and 163 00:09:05,260 --> 00:09:07,710 more specialized with whatever we do. 164 00:09:08,080 --> 00:09:12,870 I know their softwares out there just doing specific little small 165 00:09:12,940 --> 00:09:15,030 thing for your specific industry. 166 00:09:15,080 --> 00:09:18,410 Same with professionals. You go to a doctor, for example, 167 00:09:18,500 --> 00:09:21,490 if you're, if you're, you have heart problem, you're not going 168 00:09:21,500 --> 00:09:24,170 to go to dentist. You're not going to go to knee 169 00:09:24,220 --> 00:09:26,150 knee surgeon. You go to heart doctor. 170 00:09:26,160 --> 00:09:30,630 Same way should apply to us as lawyers and CPA. 171 00:09:30,760 --> 00:09:35,460 And I talked to lawyers and CPA's as us because in my world, 172 00:09:35,470 --> 00:09:38,480 it's the same kind of business. We just happen to offer 173 00:09:38,490 --> 00:09:41,640 accounting services and lawyers are offering law firm services, 174 00:09:41,730 --> 00:09:45,160 but in theory, the same kind of operation, same kind of 175 00:09:45,170 --> 00:09:48,940 business, same type of clients. So that's why I keep saying us 176 00:09:48,990 --> 00:09:51,240 when I refer to CPA's and lawyers. 177 00:09:51,290 --> 00:09:53,040 But we should see it the same way. 178 00:09:53,050 --> 00:09:57,760 Like why would a client come to an accountant working with 179 00:09:57,830 --> 00:10:01,100 millions of different industries where they can go somewhere else 180 00:10:01,230 --> 00:10:04,780 to get work with someone that really knows their industry and 181 00:10:04,890 --> 00:10:07,790 knows their pain points and can really guide them in the right 182 00:10:07,800 --> 00:10:11,160 direction rather than just offering them compliance work. 183 00:10:11,170 --> 00:10:12,880 So that that's the that's the idea. 184 00:10:12,890 --> 00:10:16,760 And that's the turning point for me that the more time goes, the 185 00:10:16,770 --> 00:10:21,250 more we need to get specialized because the, the industry or 186 00:10:21,260 --> 00:10:24,110 the, the, the business world is, is asking for it. 187 00:10:24,120 --> 00:10:26,780 And if we don't follow that, I think we'll fall behind. 188 00:10:26,790 --> 00:10:28,390 We'll fall short. Amazing. 189 00:10:28,440 --> 00:10:31,680 So I think that there's a few points that are interesting 190 00:10:31,690 --> 00:10:33,970 here, first of you're experiencing entrepreneurship, 191 00:10:33,980 --> 00:10:37,450 but then also your experience specifically advising in tax and 192 00:10:37,460 --> 00:10:39,970 all that. So I would say that many lawyers 193 00:10:39,980 --> 00:10:42,890 graduate knowing how to argue cases or or maybe that's 194 00:10:42,900 --> 00:10:45,970 something we learn on the go, even not even learn it in 195 00:10:45,980 --> 00:10:48,450 school. But anyways, but we don't really 196 00:10:48,460 --> 00:10:50,830 learn how to run a business in law school, right? 197 00:10:50,890 --> 00:10:54,060 And I wanted to know from your perspective, are there a few you 198 00:10:54,070 --> 00:10:56,970 know most common mistakes especially on the financial 199 00:10:56,980 --> 00:11:00,720 sense when you see, you know, small or mid sized law firms? 200 00:11:00,790 --> 00:11:03,610 I mean, yeah, you have a great point there, Claudia. 201 00:11:03,680 --> 00:11:07,650 Law firm, I mean law school or accounting industry, accounting 202 00:11:07,720 --> 00:11:11,370 department, accounting schools are not teaching students how to 203 00:11:11,380 --> 00:11:13,870 run a business then they're just not doing it. 204 00:11:13,940 --> 00:11:17,190 Whether it's a limitation in time or limitation resources. 205 00:11:17,200 --> 00:11:20,230 I don't know if it was me that the first thing I would talk 206 00:11:20,240 --> 00:11:24,960 teach to our students how to run a business because majority of 207 00:11:24,970 --> 00:11:29,130 lawyers that comes out, yes, lot of them go to big law firms, lot 208 00:11:29,140 --> 00:11:31,710 of them stay there. But at least where we are in 209 00:11:31,720 --> 00:11:36,170 California, a lot of a lot of students that come out and work 210 00:11:36,180 --> 00:11:40,540 few years open up their practice and without having the knowledge 211 00:11:40,550 --> 00:11:43,510 and experience, we'll experience comes, but the knowledge of 212 00:11:43,560 --> 00:11:47,310 running an operation, running a business, it becomes very, very 213 00:11:47,320 --> 00:11:50,170 difficult for these young attorneys to actually scale 214 00:11:50,180 --> 00:11:51,810 their operation. They get stuck. 215 00:11:51,920 --> 00:11:55,050 They get stuck with their own little world. 216 00:11:55,180 --> 00:11:58,130 They're fantastic, as you said, they're fantastic attorneys. 217 00:11:58,300 --> 00:12:00,410 They're aggressive and courtroom, They're settling 218 00:12:00,420 --> 00:12:03,430 cases, they're drafting agreements, they're helping 219 00:12:03,520 --> 00:12:06,550 divorces go through, but they don't know the back end of it. 220 00:12:06,720 --> 00:12:10,710 So we see a lot of that. And the main number one problem 221 00:12:10,720 --> 00:12:14,810 that I see with professionals, CPA is also, by the way, not 222 00:12:14,820 --> 00:12:19,210 only lawyers, but Cpas and lawyers see their their practice 223 00:12:19,280 --> 00:12:21,660 as a practice and not as a business. 224 00:12:21,760 --> 00:12:24,870 That's my number one thing that I see. 225 00:12:24,940 --> 00:12:27,270 We're professionals. We built like that, we trained 226 00:12:27,280 --> 00:12:31,290 like that would be professionals and our professional mind is 227 00:12:31,340 --> 00:12:34,730 totally different from the entrepreneurial mind, the 228 00:12:34,740 --> 00:12:38,700 business owner mind. And in order to really drive in 229 00:12:38,710 --> 00:12:41,470 your law firm, your own law firm, if you if you decide to 230 00:12:41,480 --> 00:12:44,010 open up your firm, not everybody wants to do it and it's not a 231 00:12:44,020 --> 00:12:46,040 good fit for everybody. But if that's what you're 232 00:12:46,050 --> 00:12:50,050 looking for to open up your firm, you have to train the 233 00:12:50,060 --> 00:12:53,090 other side of the brain to become a business owner. 234 00:12:53,180 --> 00:12:56,080 Otherwise, you might be better off just working somewhere 235 00:12:56,090 --> 00:12:58,010 because you will spin your wheels. 236 00:12:58,020 --> 00:13:01,050 You will work a lot longer hours than you were at the firm. 237 00:13:01,120 --> 00:13:04,250 You will not make as much money as you were at the firm. 238 00:13:04,320 --> 00:13:07,030 And if you think that you get flexibility as a business owner 239 00:13:07,040 --> 00:13:09,390 without having structure in place, you're wrong. 240 00:13:09,400 --> 00:13:12,510 There's no flexibility. You gotta work your butt off. 241 00:13:12,580 --> 00:13:16,070 But that's to be clear also, that's not the only way of 242 00:13:16,080 --> 00:13:18,230 running for him. There are there far better ways 243 00:13:18,240 --> 00:13:19,780 of running for. But we gotta train us. 244 00:13:19,790 --> 00:13:21,730 We gotta train that side of the. Amazing. 245 00:13:21,740 --> 00:13:24,290 No, that's great. I, I was looking through a few 246 00:13:24,300 --> 00:13:26,530 of the interviews you've given in the past and some of the 247 00:13:26,540 --> 00:13:28,950 content you've written. And I think there is something 248 00:13:28,960 --> 00:13:33,860 about here regarding an investor had something that you've said 249 00:13:33,870 --> 00:13:36,260 before, you know, how lawyers should be putting on that 250 00:13:36,270 --> 00:13:39,040 investor head on. So I wanted to ask you a little 251 00:13:39,050 --> 00:13:41,160 more about that. Can you explain what does that 252 00:13:41,170 --> 00:13:44,340 mean in, in more practical terms, especially for those who 253 00:13:44,350 --> 00:13:47,220 are managing their business And, and if I understand it 254 00:13:47,230 --> 00:13:49,900 correctly, you, you've written a book on, on that? 255 00:13:50,130 --> 00:13:52,160 Talks a little. More about that right, council 256 00:13:52,170 --> 00:13:54,520 to council. Can you tell us about that? 257 00:13:54,590 --> 00:13:58,040 Yeah, absolutely. So this is my first book, So now 258 00:13:58,050 --> 00:14:01,140 you can call me author also. So it's the first book I wrote. 259 00:14:01,150 --> 00:14:05,740 It's called Council to Council. The reason of the topic is or 260 00:14:05,750 --> 00:14:10,360 the the title is, my firm's name is council CPA's and we offer 261 00:14:10,370 --> 00:14:12,860 services to lawyers charge council. 262 00:14:12,970 --> 00:14:15,530 So that's where the council, the council comes from. 263 00:14:15,580 --> 00:14:19,270 We offer service to our law firm, but not only that, our law 264 00:14:19,280 --> 00:14:21,290 firm partners our councils to their clients. 265 00:14:21,340 --> 00:14:25,490 So it's a combination of what we offer to our clients and what 266 00:14:25,500 --> 00:14:27,010 our clients offer to their client. 267 00:14:27,020 --> 00:14:29,690 That's where the title so the council comes to from. 268 00:14:29,700 --> 00:14:34,450 And we're talking about how to really build and scale a law 269 00:14:34,460 --> 00:14:36,250 firm. And it's, it's from my 270 00:14:36,260 --> 00:14:38,250 perspective, really, it's a very easy read. 271 00:14:38,260 --> 00:14:41,430 If you want to pick it up and read it, you probably read it in 272 00:14:41,440 --> 00:14:43,530 a few hours. That, that was the idea. 273 00:14:43,540 --> 00:14:45,690 It's not meant to be very technical. 274 00:14:45,740 --> 00:14:49,620 It's meant to be for me to share my experience working with 275 00:14:49,630 --> 00:14:54,350 lawyers for the past 15 plus years and what I see with my law 276 00:14:54,360 --> 00:14:58,740 firm clients success stories. Why some law firms are driving 277 00:14:58,830 --> 00:15:00,770 and others are not. We're talking about some 278 00:15:00,780 --> 00:15:03,740 success, success stories, some less success stories. 279 00:15:03,910 --> 00:15:05,980 There are no failures. Nobody is failing. 280 00:15:05,990 --> 00:15:09,000 By the way, I hate that word. So we don't fail, but we have 281 00:15:09,010 --> 00:15:12,240 less success stories in our in the book. 282 00:15:12,330 --> 00:15:16,620 And also I'm comparing my CPA firm to other law firms. 283 00:15:16,630 --> 00:15:20,020 Also, as I mentioned before, I see CPA firms and law firms 284 00:15:20,030 --> 00:15:23,280 being a same kind of business. Yes, Ioffer accounting and tax 285 00:15:23,290 --> 00:15:25,480 services, lawyers offer legal services. 286 00:15:25,650 --> 00:15:29,520 The business itself is the same. This is the entrepreneurial part 287 00:15:29,530 --> 00:15:31,200 of the brain that needs to come in. 288 00:15:31,250 --> 00:15:33,860 What is the business? What business are you offering? 289 00:15:33,870 --> 00:15:37,560 So in this book, we're talking a little bit about that. 290 00:15:37,630 --> 00:15:42,280 And to your point, I'm talking a lot about the, the business 291 00:15:42,290 --> 00:15:45,920 part, converting your practice to business, because that's 292 00:15:45,930 --> 00:15:49,600 after all, I would assume you open up a business, your own 293 00:15:49,610 --> 00:15:52,820 firm to have a business. Otherwise you will just go work 294 00:15:52,830 --> 00:15:56,020 somewhere if, if that's what you want, which is perfectly fine, 295 00:15:56,030 --> 00:15:58,680 by the way, there's no one, no one that says that running a 296 00:15:58,690 --> 00:16:00,820 business is better than working somewhere. 297 00:16:00,830 --> 00:16:03,460 But if that's what you want, if that's what you're looking for 298 00:16:03,470 --> 00:16:06,760 to have a business, then you have to change your mindset and 299 00:16:06,770 --> 00:16:09,350 put the investor hat on. That's when it comes in. 300 00:16:09,400 --> 00:16:12,810 You put the investor hat on at the same time, you must have 301 00:16:12,820 --> 00:16:15,230 your professional hat on because we are professionals. 302 00:16:15,240 --> 00:16:16,800 You can't take that away from us. 303 00:16:16,870 --> 00:16:19,740 You have to keep providing excellent service, helping your 304 00:16:19,750 --> 00:16:22,740 clients, but that's not enough. Unfortunately, to have a 305 00:16:23,110 --> 00:16:25,150 successful business, that's not enough. 306 00:16:25,160 --> 00:16:27,290 You must put your investor hat on. 307 00:16:27,300 --> 00:16:31,830 And an example that I typically draw with with this in mind, 308 00:16:31,840 --> 00:16:35,390 with the investor hat on is for example, if you are, if you 309 00:16:35,400 --> 00:16:38,810 wouldn't be a lawyer, you would go out and open up a restaurant, 310 00:16:38,820 --> 00:16:41,710 let's say, right, you buy a restaurant, that's an example. 311 00:16:41,800 --> 00:16:43,810 You've got to invest a lot of money into that restaurant. 312 00:16:43,820 --> 00:16:47,170 Whether you start from scratch or buy an existing business, you 313 00:16:47,180 --> 00:16:48,950 need to invest a lot of money into this restaurant. 314 00:16:48,960 --> 00:16:51,690 If it's a new business, you need to buy equipment, You need to 315 00:16:51,700 --> 00:16:54,710 pay rent for several months until the business picks up. 316 00:16:54,780 --> 00:16:57,040 If it's an existing business, then obviously you got to 317 00:16:57,050 --> 00:16:59,210 purchase that business from the, the, the seller. 318 00:16:59,340 --> 00:17:00,810 So it's an investment either way. 319 00:17:00,960 --> 00:17:04,670 But professionals such as lawyers and CPA's as well. 320 00:17:04,760 --> 00:17:08,300 When we open up our firm, we don't see our firm as a 321 00:17:08,310 --> 00:17:11,619 business, therefore we have a hard time investing, putting 322 00:17:11,630 --> 00:17:13,980 some money up front, including myself. 323 00:17:14,270 --> 00:17:17,660 I do not believe this is exactly the mistake I did, which I wish 324 00:17:17,670 --> 00:17:21,240 I didn't back then, but I didn't know any better and I'd done 325 00:17:21,250 --> 00:17:23,920 millions of mistakes throughout this 1520 years. 326 00:17:23,930 --> 00:17:28,200 But we live and learn and that's when if you would see this as a 327 00:17:28,210 --> 00:17:32,320 business from day one and invest some capital into your business 328 00:17:32,410 --> 00:17:37,220 and structure it in a way where it's a lot more scalable because 329 00:17:37,230 --> 00:17:39,280 alone it's just so much you can do. 330 00:17:39,350 --> 00:17:41,720 What can I do? I can't do marketing, offering 331 00:17:41,730 --> 00:17:44,240 services, go out and do networking, do my accounting, 332 00:17:44,330 --> 00:17:47,300 answer the phone calls, be the IT person in the firm. 333 00:17:47,310 --> 00:17:49,320 Like it's just your time is just limited. 334 00:17:49,370 --> 00:17:52,490 And I wish we could do all of it and not have to invest the 335 00:17:52,500 --> 00:17:54,900 money. But that's what I mean with the 336 00:17:54,910 --> 00:17:59,070 investor health on Claudio, you unfortunately have to invest 337 00:17:59,080 --> 00:18:02,110 some some money into the business if you want to build 338 00:18:02,120 --> 00:18:06,400 that business again, some firm, some lawyers just opened up. 339 00:18:06,410 --> 00:18:08,470 So you know what, I'm just tired working somewhere. 340 00:18:08,540 --> 00:18:12,050 I just want to be me myself, Just run my practice. 341 00:18:12,060 --> 00:18:15,250 Very small ownership, very small practice. 342 00:18:15,260 --> 00:18:16,930 I don't need to have a higher people. 343 00:18:16,940 --> 00:18:19,710 I don't need to have millions of clients or grow firm. 344 00:18:19,780 --> 00:18:21,230 Those cases. It's perfectly fine. 345 00:18:21,240 --> 00:18:24,470 You can just gradually grow your firm and you don't really 346 00:18:24,480 --> 00:18:27,290 necessarily need to put the investor hat on, but you still 347 00:18:27,300 --> 00:18:30,310 need to put put the business owner hat on the investor hat. 348 00:18:30,320 --> 00:18:32,330 And the business owner had this different thing. 349 00:18:32,400 --> 00:18:36,460 Investor puts money into an operation and expects return in 350 00:18:36,500 --> 00:18:39,520 return from that investment. The business owner is the 351 00:18:39,530 --> 00:18:42,890 operator, the professional is the professional who provides 352 00:18:42,900 --> 00:18:44,780 services. So there are three, three kind 353 00:18:44,790 --> 00:18:47,100 of hats that we need to consider. 354 00:18:47,170 --> 00:18:50,900 The professional 1, the business owner one and the investor one, 355 00:18:50,970 --> 00:18:54,920 which a lot of time people think the business owner and investor 356 00:18:54,930 --> 00:18:56,860 is the same. In my opinion, it's not. 357 00:18:56,910 --> 00:19:00,240 It's an investor. You could as well put $100 into 358 00:19:00,310 --> 00:19:05,320 Apple stock and expect return in dividends and expect the value 359 00:19:05,330 --> 00:19:08,410 of the Apple stock to go up. The business owner, you're 360 00:19:08,420 --> 00:19:11,740 actually in the business and doing the work involved, 361 00:19:11,790 --> 00:19:16,180 managing and growing the firm and as a professional are 362 00:19:16,190 --> 00:19:18,480 actually providing the services yourself. 363 00:19:18,550 --> 00:19:21,760 Does that make sense, Claudio? I'm curious now that you that 364 00:19:21,770 --> 00:19:25,320 you tell me that's different hats and and how you know people 365 00:19:25,330 --> 00:19:28,300 have different goals, right? But you could say it's a fair 366 00:19:28,310 --> 00:19:31,020 assumption should say to business once you have a profit. 367 00:19:31,430 --> 00:19:35,940 So I also wanted to know in your, in your experience and, 368 00:19:35,950 --> 00:19:39,900 and from all of that, are there a few things specifically that 369 00:19:39,910 --> 00:19:43,980 you've seen that separate firms that then have that growth 370 00:19:44,030 --> 00:19:47,660 sustainably from those that might struggle your after year? 371 00:19:47,750 --> 00:19:50,440 I know you said something very interesting about putting in the 372 00:19:50,450 --> 00:19:53,500 the investment up front and all of that, but are there some 373 00:19:53,510 --> 00:19:56,660 other things that you notice to some maybe trends in the sense 374 00:19:56,670 --> 00:19:58,950 of how do you grow firm? Absolutely. 375 00:19:59,010 --> 00:20:00,940 It comes back to being a professional. 376 00:20:01,040 --> 00:20:04,230 Again, as professionals, including me, I'm talking about 377 00:20:04,240 --> 00:20:07,010 myself as well here when I'm talking about professionals, 378 00:20:07,020 --> 00:20:11,190 because I'm a CPA, I was trained to be CPA, but I've been working 379 00:20:11,200 --> 00:20:14,230 on myself to kind of train my brain to be a business owner 380 00:20:14,240 --> 00:20:16,130 also. But it's, it's hard. 381 00:20:16,140 --> 00:20:19,310 It's very easy to go back and slip back to become a 382 00:20:19,320 --> 00:20:22,110 professional because that's where where we feel comfortable 383 00:20:22,180 --> 00:20:25,170 as a, as a professional. Biggest, one of the biggest 384 00:20:25,360 --> 00:20:29,390 thing that I see is the lack of delegation trust issue. 385 00:20:29,480 --> 00:20:32,870 We think we can do something better than anybody else. 386 00:20:32,880 --> 00:20:35,430 Nobody else can do it the way I do it. 387 00:20:35,520 --> 00:20:39,280 Yeah, that's, that's very true. Possibly nobody can do it the 388 00:20:39,290 --> 00:20:42,830 way I do it. But what is who am I to say that 389 00:20:42,880 --> 00:20:44,310 this is the best way of doing it? 390 00:20:44,450 --> 00:20:48,720 What if I bring in Claudio as my, let's say in this example, 391 00:20:48,830 --> 00:20:53,290 as a young CPA graduated, has few years experience, I've been 392 00:20:53,300 --> 00:20:54,880 in the business for 20 plus years. 393 00:20:54,890 --> 00:20:57,320 I've been doing the same things over and over. 394 00:20:57,390 --> 00:20:59,700 Just because I'm doing the same thing over and over doesn't mean 395 00:20:59,710 --> 00:21:02,940 that's the right way of doing bringing Claudio with his new 396 00:21:02,950 --> 00:21:07,630 way of thinking, new mentality. Yes, I might not like that we're 397 00:21:07,640 --> 00:21:10,640 changing ways of doing it, but I think that's a very, very 398 00:21:10,650 --> 00:21:14,040 crucial to be able to evolve your practice, to bring in new 399 00:21:14,050 --> 00:21:18,420 mindset, new kind of thinking, to change the way you're doing. 400 00:21:18,430 --> 00:21:22,660 Specially now with AI, like I'm pretty positive I know for a 401 00:21:22,670 --> 00:21:29,140 fact that the younger generation are a lot more AI driven than I 402 00:21:29,150 --> 00:21:31,730 am, even though I'm forcing myself to learn it. 403 00:21:31,830 --> 00:21:35,520 But someone that's 20 years younger than me right now would 404 00:21:35,530 --> 00:21:38,730 be able to implement AI a lot better than myself. 405 00:21:38,780 --> 00:21:42,630 So why not use that talent? Why not bring them in and let 406 00:21:42,640 --> 00:21:45,510 them develop the new way of doing business? 407 00:21:45,560 --> 00:21:48,550 So delegation, delegation, delegation. 408 00:21:48,560 --> 00:21:49,790 That's kind of goes hand in hand. 409 00:21:49,800 --> 00:21:51,770 It's kind of mindset and delegation. 410 00:21:51,820 --> 00:21:54,710 And Claudio come into my office or my practice. 411 00:21:54,720 --> 00:21:56,590 Claudio, this is your department. 412 00:21:56,640 --> 00:21:59,790 I want you to build new processes around implementing 413 00:21:59,800 --> 00:22:01,890 AI. Just as an example, how can we 414 00:22:01,900 --> 00:22:04,870 utilize AI to make our practice more efficient? 415 00:22:04,940 --> 00:22:06,630 That that's a problem that I see. 416 00:22:06,680 --> 00:22:10,530 Firms that are thriving are not scared of delegating. 417 00:22:10,620 --> 00:22:14,420 And in order to not be scared of delegating, it cannot be scared 418 00:22:14,430 --> 00:22:16,040 of making mistakes. Yeah. 419 00:22:16,050 --> 00:22:19,350 Maybe Claudio make some mistakes around, you know, that that 420 00:22:19,360 --> 00:22:21,530 that's part of it. I've made millions of mistakes. 421 00:22:21,540 --> 00:22:23,150 Why shouldn't Claudia make mistakes? 422 00:22:23,260 --> 00:22:26,090 We should encourage miss mistakes, actually. 423 00:22:26,300 --> 00:22:29,870 And by the way, talking about that, that's not only in, in in 424 00:22:29,880 --> 00:22:31,810 the business world. I think we should encourage 425 00:22:31,820 --> 00:22:34,090 mistakes in life. I'm talking to my kids all the 426 00:22:34,100 --> 00:22:37,030 time and I want them to make mistakes sometimes. 427 00:22:37,040 --> 00:22:40,230 I'm kind of setting him up to make mistakes because they 428 00:22:40,240 --> 00:22:41,700 learn. That's what we learn. 429 00:22:41,760 --> 00:22:46,010 And yeah, it sounds rude and cruel to set up your kids to 430 00:22:46,020 --> 00:22:48,610 make mistakes, but I think, I think that's how we learn. 431 00:22:48,900 --> 00:22:51,950 I think. And that will train their brain 432 00:22:52,020 --> 00:22:55,250 that it's OK to make mistakes. It's OK to be creative, to try 433 00:22:55,260 --> 00:22:57,310 new things. One out of 10 will stick. 434 00:22:57,440 --> 00:22:59,520 And that would be fantastic idea. 435 00:22:59,570 --> 00:23:01,980 A lot of people are telling me by the way, about making 436 00:23:01,990 --> 00:23:05,600 mistakes. A lot of people when I let go of 437 00:23:05,610 --> 00:23:08,600 all my non law firm clients because it was a pretty 438 00:23:08,610 --> 00:23:12,560 successful firm at about 2020 employees working at my at that 439 00:23:12,570 --> 00:23:14,790 firm. And I let that go and have 440 00:23:14,800 --> 00:23:17,060 someone else run it. A lot of people tell me like, 441 00:23:17,070 --> 00:23:19,460 you're, you're crazy. I mean, why would you do that? 442 00:23:19,470 --> 00:23:23,060 You've been building it for over 15 years, almost 18 years, and 443 00:23:23,070 --> 00:23:24,440 now all of a sudden you let it go. 444 00:23:24,490 --> 00:23:27,000 It's because I can see trying new things. 445 00:23:27,150 --> 00:23:29,040 Be brave. Will I make mistakes? 446 00:23:29,050 --> 00:23:32,040 It's absolutely this past year I made even more mistakes, but 447 00:23:32,050 --> 00:23:34,540 different mistakes from when I did with my other firm. 448 00:23:34,750 --> 00:23:37,120 I'm not going to make if I'm going to make the same mistakes 449 00:23:37,130 --> 00:23:39,380 I did with the other firm, then it's me to blame. 450 00:23:39,430 --> 00:23:43,110 But if it's new mistakes, which will take me to even higher, 451 00:23:43,160 --> 00:23:45,050 higher levels, I'll make the mistakes. 452 00:23:45,060 --> 00:23:47,450 I take that. So to answer your question, I'm 453 00:23:47,460 --> 00:23:49,510 going off track here. Once in a while, Claude, you 454 00:23:49,520 --> 00:23:51,750 gotta, you gotta bring me back. Answer your question. 455 00:23:51,800 --> 00:23:56,080 The ones that are delegating with systems in place. 456 00:23:56,150 --> 00:23:57,540 We need to have systems in place. 457 00:23:57,550 --> 00:24:00,960 Very important to delegate. I can't just hire Claudia and 458 00:24:00,970 --> 00:24:04,080 talent Claudio get it done. You can't do that. 459 00:24:04,290 --> 00:24:06,660 Claudia just have a couple of years of experience. 460 00:24:06,670 --> 00:24:08,600 For example. I'm just bringing you as an 461 00:24:08,610 --> 00:24:11,860 example Claudio, but and throw him out there. 462 00:24:11,910 --> 00:24:14,900 If we don't have systems in place, Claudia get will get 463 00:24:14,910 --> 00:24:17,370 frustrated. Very likely that he will leave 464 00:24:17,380 --> 00:24:21,500 within very quickly the firm because a meal as the owner is 465 00:24:21,510 --> 00:24:24,100 not supporting him. Has doesn't have systems in 466 00:24:24,110 --> 00:24:26,920 place. System does not mean control. 467 00:24:27,090 --> 00:24:29,800 You don't have to be control freak to have systems in place. 468 00:24:29,870 --> 00:24:33,520 You put systems in place to be able to measure and monitor 469 00:24:33,570 --> 00:24:36,740 what's happening and allow allow some room for mistakes. 470 00:24:36,890 --> 00:24:39,920 So that that's a key. The firms that are thriving my 471 00:24:39,970 --> 00:24:43,720 my clients that I see, the biggest ones are just in the 472 00:24:43,730 --> 00:24:48,210 background with the bird as we looking at the firm and making 473 00:24:48,220 --> 00:24:51,110 sure everything is working and when it's not, they're stepping 474 00:24:51,120 --> 00:24:52,970 in and trying to solve those problems. 475 00:24:53,040 --> 00:24:54,620 Amazing, that makes a lot of sense. 476 00:24:54,630 --> 00:24:56,630 And I, and I really appreciate you sharing that. 477 00:24:56,640 --> 00:24:59,180 I've also really liked what you said about, you know, raising 478 00:24:59,190 --> 00:25:00,890 children and teaching them how to make mistakes. 479 00:25:00,900 --> 00:25:04,130 I think that's always a nice caveat that we get here in the 480 00:25:04,140 --> 00:25:07,570 podcast, listening parenting tips and, and all kinds of 481 00:25:07,580 --> 00:25:08,950 things. And I think that that really 482 00:25:08,960 --> 00:25:10,850 makes our conversations even more rich. 483 00:25:10,920 --> 00:25:13,880 But moving forward here, I, I wanted to ask you about 484 00:25:13,890 --> 00:25:17,130 something very specific. So I'm just personally 485 00:25:17,140 --> 00:25:19,970 completing my, my law degree here in Canada. 486 00:25:20,060 --> 00:25:23,240 And, you know, a lot of the the listeners in this podcast are 487 00:25:23,250 --> 00:25:27,070 either lost students or junior lawyers just getting into the 488 00:25:27,140 --> 00:25:30,150 the workforce. And all of them listening today 489 00:25:30,160 --> 00:25:35,080 are are usually preparing to be, you know, in a future practice 490 00:25:35,090 --> 00:25:37,530 that that could mean even, you know, preparing all the 491 00:25:37,540 --> 00:25:40,850 financial side, being either a law firm owner or some kind of 492 00:25:40,860 --> 00:25:43,490 manager. So I wanted to know if you have 493 00:25:43,840 --> 00:25:47,570 a piece of advice that you give to this law students were 494 00:25:47,580 --> 00:25:50,250 starting today. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. 495 00:25:50,260 --> 00:25:54,320 First of all, you got to think of what is it that you want just 496 00:25:54,330 --> 00:25:57,830 because it looks sexy, to have a big firm, just because it looks 497 00:25:57,840 --> 00:26:02,090 cool, you know, people will talk about you and Meal or Claudia 498 00:26:02,100 --> 00:26:04,780 has a huge firm that doesn't mean crap. 499 00:26:04,790 --> 00:26:08,270 You got to feel see what is right for you based on your 500 00:26:08,280 --> 00:26:11,350 situation and what's right for you today might not be right for 501 00:26:11,360 --> 00:26:13,980 you 10 years from now. That that was me when I first 502 00:26:13,990 --> 00:26:17,960 started 2009. My idea was, you know what, I 503 00:26:17,970 --> 00:26:22,280 just wanna build a firm, help law firms, I mean clients in 504 00:26:22,290 --> 00:26:24,680 general at that time and I make a living. 505 00:26:24,750 --> 00:26:28,340 But thereafter you're, you're evolving, you are growing up, 506 00:26:28,350 --> 00:26:31,940 you are evolving, your ideas are evolving or it might not, but 507 00:26:32,040 --> 00:26:34,300 you got to see what's right for you. 508 00:26:34,410 --> 00:26:37,580 And do not be scared of making mistakes. 509 00:26:37,590 --> 00:26:40,560 I would just talked about you will be making mistakes. 510 00:26:40,630 --> 00:26:42,820 That's part of it. You have to do that. 511 00:26:43,070 --> 00:26:46,360 And do not be scared to change your route down the line. 512 00:26:46,570 --> 00:26:49,780 That happened to me. I changed my route because you 513 00:26:49,790 --> 00:26:51,610 evolved. You learn new things through 514 00:26:51,620 --> 00:26:55,090 your mistakes and you change your route towards something 515 00:26:55,160 --> 00:26:57,080 bigger and better. Why do you know that? 516 00:26:57,090 --> 00:26:59,560 Once you know what, what is it that you want? 517 00:26:59,640 --> 00:27:03,700 You got to again see this. If you want to build a firm, as 518 00:27:03,710 --> 00:27:06,530 you mentioned, most of the listeners are eventually gonna 519 00:27:06,540 --> 00:27:09,720 open up their own practice or become partners. 520 00:27:09,770 --> 00:27:13,840 You gotta see it as a business and do not only think through 521 00:27:13,850 --> 00:27:16,300 your professional, professional hat. 522 00:27:16,650 --> 00:27:21,140 That that's my biggest, biggest, biggest, biggest advice because 523 00:27:21,150 --> 00:27:23,950 I see that a bunch of clients that do not do that doesn't 524 00:27:23,960 --> 00:27:27,080 matter how much we talk to them, they still a professional 525 00:27:27,150 --> 00:27:31,080 without the business owners or investors have done and they get 526 00:27:31,090 --> 00:27:33,120 stuck. Those are getting stuck, but 527 00:27:33,170 --> 00:27:34,940 that's it. You cannot lose your 528 00:27:34,950 --> 00:27:39,030 professional hat because that's what that's who you are, that's 529 00:27:39,040 --> 00:27:41,450 what brought you where you are. You still have to be 530 00:27:41,460 --> 00:27:43,630 professional. You still have to treat your 531 00:27:43,640 --> 00:27:47,050 clients with a professional mind, but train the other part 532 00:27:47,060 --> 00:27:49,030 also if that helps. Amazing. 533 00:27:49,100 --> 00:27:51,530 Well, thank you so much once again for taking your time to be 534 00:27:51,540 --> 00:27:54,090 in the podcast today e-mail. I think those are some really 535 00:27:54,100 --> 00:27:56,570 valuable lessons and thank you all for listening. 536 00:27:56,640 --> 00:27:58,010 Thank you so much Claudia for having me. 537 00:27:58,020 --> 00:27:59,340 This was amazing. Thank you.