1 00:00:12,880 --> 00:00:16,450 Welcome to studying law around the world I'm Claudio Claus in 2 00:00:16,460 --> 00:00:19,350 each episode, I talk with lawyers, law students and 3 00:00:19,360 --> 00:00:22,750 professors from different parts of the world to talk about legal 4 00:00:22,760 --> 00:00:26,040 education, careers, and what the profession looks like in real 5 00:00:26,050 --> 00:00:28,980 life we talk about the hard parts, the surprises and the 6 00:00:28,990 --> 00:00:31,360 decisions that. Shaped their paths, whether. 7 00:00:31,370 --> 00:00:34,010 You're planning to study abroad, thinking about working in 8 00:00:34,020 --> 00:00:37,370 another legal system, or just curious about how law works 9 00:00:37,460 --> 00:00:40,240 around the world? This podcast is for you. 10 00:00:42,950 --> 00:00:46,160 Today, have the opportunity to interview Eugene Mattis. 11 00:00:46,500 --> 00:00:52,140 He has an incredible experience and so many different things 12 00:00:52,150 --> 00:00:54,280 that he's done throughout his career all the way from 13 00:00:54,290 --> 00:00:57,350 diplomacy to the military. Thank you so much for taking the 14 00:00:57,360 --> 00:00:59,090 time to join the podcast today, Eugene. 15 00:00:59,100 --> 00:01:02,030 Really appreciate it. Thank you for having me here. 16 00:01:02,040 --> 00:01:03,410 I really do appreciate it. I think it's. 17 00:01:03,420 --> 00:01:06,430 Gonna be fun, amazing and true. To start off, I'd love if you 18 00:01:06,440 --> 00:01:09,310 could introduce yourself, chair listeners and and share a little 19 00:01:09,320 --> 00:01:10,810 bit about your background as well. 20 00:01:10,860 --> 00:01:15,490 I'm from Dominican Republic originally and and I studied law 21 00:01:15,560 --> 00:01:18,360 and in a bunch of places. I studied law in Germany, I 22 00:01:18,370 --> 00:01:23,090 studied law in Quebec, civil law and common law and bought as 23 00:01:23,100 --> 00:01:27,940 well went to the military, was a diplomat for awhile, was even in 24 00:01:27,950 --> 00:01:29,810 high school teacher at one point. 25 00:01:29,880 --> 00:01:33,490 You know, I mean, I will introduce myself as someone 26 00:01:33,500 --> 00:01:37,770 that's very curious, Very, very, very, very curious and I'm happy 27 00:01:37,780 --> 00:01:43,960 to jump into things. I will say that I enjoy life a 28 00:01:43,970 --> 00:01:46,280 lot after having served in military. 29 00:01:46,290 --> 00:01:48,840 Life is so short, you have to have fun. 30 00:01:50,310 --> 00:01:54,250 Skydiver instructor. I'm a pilot. 31 00:01:54,290 --> 00:01:58,270 You'd like to do intense stuff. Keeps keeps me away from the 32 00:01:58,280 --> 00:01:59,830 work and life. Interesting. 33 00:02:00,230 --> 00:02:03,250 We're only here for such a short period of time and that's that's 34 00:02:03,260 --> 00:02:05,180 all I have to say. That's amazing. 35 00:02:05,190 --> 00:02:06,840 That's awesome. I love that. 36 00:02:06,850 --> 00:02:10,570 And I finally ask maybe jumping into a little bit of your of 37 00:02:10,580 --> 00:02:14,220 your study experience and then we can talk a little bit about 38 00:02:14,230 --> 00:02:17,740 your work and all of that. But I know you hold both a civil 39 00:02:17,750 --> 00:02:21,660 law degree then from Quebec and then some German background as 40 00:02:21,670 --> 00:02:24,180 well and also a common law degree. 41 00:02:24,510 --> 00:02:27,350 And I also come from the civil law system myself. 42 00:02:28,630 --> 00:02:30,860 Yeah, that's right. I started my career in Brazil. 43 00:02:30,870 --> 00:02:33,240 That's where I'm from and where my first degree is from. 44 00:02:33,980 --> 00:02:36,950 Keep you you put your Brazilian. Yep, Yep. 45 00:02:36,960 --> 00:02:39,250 Yeah, actually. Speaker, dish. 46 00:02:39,300 --> 00:02:41,990 Sing sing. With the band What the man? 47 00:02:42,000 --> 00:02:44,770 But what I'm curious to know, you know, we talk often about 48 00:02:44,780 --> 00:02:48,170 this differences in all of that and comparing the system. 49 00:02:48,440 --> 00:02:52,120 But I I'm wondering if for you it was a huge difference in the 50 00:02:52,130 --> 00:02:56,070 sense of, you know, switching between a code based mindset 51 00:02:56,080 --> 00:02:59,450 should expresidente base and if the thinking of it ever 52 00:02:59,460 --> 00:03:02,090 dominated the other. Or like in your current 53 00:03:02,100 --> 00:03:04,930 practice, you use more homolog. What? 54 00:03:04,940 --> 00:03:10,160 What does that look like today? I think that I find being a 55 00:03:10,170 --> 00:03:14,580 common law lawyer a lot harder than being a civilist. 56 00:03:14,650 --> 00:03:17,420 I'm going to say civilist, a civil tradition, civilist 57 00:03:17,470 --> 00:03:25,250 tradition to the point that as a civil law lawyer, you can really 58 00:03:25,260 --> 00:03:29,250 lean back on the legislature and the rules that have been 59 00:03:29,800 --> 00:03:33,120 legislated and you can lean back on the Civil Code. 60 00:03:34,470 --> 00:03:37,080 I'm sure in Brazil you have a silicone as well or similar 61 00:03:37,090 --> 00:03:39,460 tradition. You have the book, the book, and 62 00:03:39,530 --> 00:03:43,760 what I like about that book is that it says everything you need 63 00:03:43,770 --> 00:03:45,920 to know and it's so well written. 64 00:03:46,390 --> 00:03:52,870 A lot of what I what I hate, what I have that that discussion 65 00:03:52,920 --> 00:03:56,760 with the common lawyers is that they say, oh, you know, 66 00:03:56,770 --> 00:03:59,830 regulations or rags, you know, you hear about the regulations 67 00:03:59,840 --> 00:04:02,470 or eggs and Ontario then tear regulations. 68 00:04:04,020 --> 00:04:06,720 You know, they're you know, they're very sporadic, they're 69 00:04:06,730 --> 00:04:14,610 poorly written. They're they're just very timely 70 00:04:14,620 --> 00:04:19,990 written, but the regulations don't full well through time if 71 00:04:20,000 --> 00:04:23,560 I if I make sense. But when you look at a Civil 72 00:04:23,570 --> 00:04:26,600 Code, you're looking at a piece of art really. 73 00:04:26,610 --> 00:04:30,700 If you look up for example, and I'm sure then in Brazil, you 74 00:04:30,710 --> 00:04:33,650 know you would have in Germany, the same way you'd have a code 75 00:04:33,660 --> 00:04:35,830 that's written then you know bites in the pollinators 76 00:04:36,190 --> 00:04:42,620 traditions, it says the code is written in a way that you are 77 00:04:42,970 --> 00:04:47,230 from birth to death. All the chapters are so well 78 00:04:47,240 --> 00:04:51,490 written. You have how you become a 79 00:04:51,500 --> 00:04:53,490 person. What is a person? 80 00:04:53,720 --> 00:04:58,090 What are the rights of the person to How do you name your 81 00:04:58,100 --> 00:05:01,110 child? It's actually in the Quebec 82 00:05:01,120 --> 00:05:02,860 code. It actually is a rule on how to 83 00:05:02,870 --> 00:05:04,770 name your child. You should not, you know, you 84 00:05:04,780 --> 00:05:08,130 know you cannot, you know, name your child in the famous world 85 00:05:08,180 --> 00:05:12,870 and famous with the famous way. There's actually a case law 86 00:05:12,880 --> 00:05:14,470 that's actually quite interesting because if the 87 00:05:14,480 --> 00:05:19,810 person that tried to call their child the spatula and and and 88 00:05:19,820 --> 00:05:21,710 and it goes against the code because you could not name your 89 00:05:21,720 --> 00:05:25,480 child this certain way. And no, all that to say is that 90 00:05:26,530 --> 00:05:30,120 as a lawyer, it's a lot easier. It makes the life a lot easier. 91 00:05:30,130 --> 00:05:36,520 Civil, a lawyer to be a civilist I find, but it's a lost student. 92 00:05:36,580 --> 00:05:41,420 It's a different story as a law student, I know your pockets 93 00:05:41,430 --> 00:05:43,010 about lost. You know, you're talking about 94 00:05:43,020 --> 00:05:46,370 lost students and all that. And if, if, if any of common law 95 00:05:46,380 --> 00:05:50,480 students are going to go study a civilist tradition, they're 96 00:05:50,490 --> 00:05:52,280 going to have a hard time because I'll tell you this, you 97 00:05:52,290 --> 00:05:56,410 can study jurisprudence as much as you want, but if you don't 98 00:05:56,420 --> 00:05:59,940 have the right answer, you're going to get, you're going to 99 00:05:59,950 --> 00:06:02,230 get the hammer. Like you're really good at the 100 00:06:02,240 --> 00:06:07,330 hammer. And because I found when I was 101 00:06:07,340 --> 00:06:11,730 studying Camelot could have, I could read as long as I've read 102 00:06:11,740 --> 00:06:17,420 and understood the case, I could read the difference or this or 103 00:06:17,430 --> 00:06:19,680 that. And and that could just write 104 00:06:19,690 --> 00:06:22,180 and write and write and write as much as I could. 105 00:06:22,190 --> 00:06:25,200 And then I would get a good mark because it said, OK, this 106 00:06:25,210 --> 00:06:27,240 student didn't get the right answer, but this student 107 00:06:27,250 --> 00:06:29,200 understood the principles that were taught. 108 00:06:29,210 --> 00:06:33,620 And it's case this person, this, this versus this, you know, 109 00:06:34,090 --> 00:06:36,800 given the mark. Now, in civil law tradition, 110 00:06:37,130 --> 00:06:41,050 it's a different story. You really need to understand 111 00:06:41,060 --> 00:06:49,560 how to raked down regulation. The word and or not this and 112 00:06:49,570 --> 00:06:53,440 that. That's a huge strike and I find 113 00:06:53,450 --> 00:06:56,720 a lot of common law lawyers would benefit from civil law 114 00:06:56,730 --> 00:07:02,320 trade, civil education to understand, um, how every little 115 00:07:02,330 --> 00:07:05,990 word is so impactful and the work you do. 116 00:07:07,880 --> 00:07:11,520 On the other hand, around I found that common law is working 117 00:07:11,530 --> 00:07:13,550 as a common law. To answer your question, working 118 00:07:13,560 --> 00:07:18,620 as a common law lawyer is is a lot more liberating and can look 119 00:07:18,630 --> 00:07:21,490 at policies, we can look at different things, we can 120 00:07:21,500 --> 00:07:22,760 negotiate. It's a lot more business 121 00:07:22,770 --> 00:07:28,350 friendly and I've been working as a trade lawyer for a while 122 00:07:28,360 --> 00:07:32,010 now and for that reason, Can you imagine how trade has been 123 00:07:32,280 --> 00:07:35,870 absolutely gone bonkers? Now I guess it's Greenland if 124 00:07:35,880 --> 00:07:42,470 they'll be the IUSR and I find that as expensive when you work 125 00:07:42,540 --> 00:07:45,890 as a couple of lawyer, I think it's about more liberating. 126 00:07:46,140 --> 00:07:51,930 Can can negotiate more, you can interpret more jurisprudence 127 00:07:51,940 --> 00:07:56,920 obviously takes a bit more of a I have, so yeah. 128 00:07:57,960 --> 00:08:00,010 Fantastic. Now very interesting point of 129 00:08:00,020 --> 00:08:02,410 view and interesting to know a little more about, you know, 130 00:08:02,420 --> 00:08:07,270 your practice in in trade and how kind of having a specific 131 00:08:07,380 --> 00:08:10,110 law background allows you to do things differently. 132 00:08:10,120 --> 00:08:13,410 That's very, very interesting. And and I think that pretty much 133 00:08:13,420 --> 00:08:18,330 like segue into that. I also saw you have an MBA and 134 00:08:18,580 --> 00:08:21,270 always very interested in in something that that I hear 135 00:08:21,280 --> 00:08:24,930 sometimes, but I'm always curious to know what's your view 136 00:08:24,940 --> 00:08:28,120 on it. So I find that oftentimes 137 00:08:28,130 --> 00:08:33,230 lawyers are, are kind of trained to be very much risk avoidance, 138 00:08:33,480 --> 00:08:35,789 right? And I, I find them the other 139 00:08:35,799 --> 00:08:39,390 hand that business training usually focuses on managing risk 140 00:08:39,400 --> 00:08:42,650 and beating, you know, in finance in different aspects. 141 00:08:42,960 --> 00:08:46,010 So I'm wondering from your perspective, you know, when you 142 00:08:46,020 --> 00:08:50,630 advise government businesses, which kind of mindset leads that 143 00:08:50,640 --> 00:08:52,330 for you? Is it, is it like the, the 144 00:08:52,340 --> 00:08:55,790 lawyer avoid risk? Is it a business manage risk? 145 00:08:55,940 --> 00:08:57,470 Is it a little bit of everything? 146 00:08:57,540 --> 00:08:58,770 What? What are your thoughts? 147 00:08:59,120 --> 00:09:05,010 I think that as a lawyer, I think we have to stop being risk 148 00:09:05,020 --> 00:09:07,120 avoidant. You know, we have to be 149 00:09:07,130 --> 00:09:10,860 enablers, business and neighbors bring Commonwealth land. 150 00:09:10,870 --> 00:09:14,740 And for God's sake, I mean, this is the, this is, this is the 151 00:09:14,800 --> 00:09:17,060 opportunity. You have a lot of leeway to to 152 00:09:17,070 --> 00:09:18,910 look at different options as a lawyer. 153 00:09:19,950 --> 00:09:23,180 I think that do you have a client? 154 00:09:23,500 --> 00:09:26,880 Client has an option, right? So in government, you have just 155 00:09:26,890 --> 00:09:30,550 the way it usually works is that you have, well, you have an 156 00:09:30,560 --> 00:09:33,680 issue. That issue includes a policy 157 00:09:33,690 --> 00:09:36,050 option and then they have four or five options. 158 00:09:37,180 --> 00:09:40,070 That option becomes a decision. Note the call it and then goes 159 00:09:40,080 --> 00:09:44,110 to the to the attorney general. It goes to whatever the deputy 160 00:09:44,120 --> 00:09:46,710 administrator, depending on the level of the series of the 161 00:09:46,720 --> 00:09:51,080 seriousness of the of, of, of the matter, it could be, for 162 00:09:51,090 --> 00:09:54,020 example, let's cancel, OK, let's do this. 163 00:09:54,030 --> 00:09:57,700 Let's cancel Crab Royal or not. What I'm talking about alcohol, 164 00:09:57,710 --> 00:09:59,860 because that's the issue Narrative Council, American 165 00:09:59,870 --> 00:10:02,530 alcohol and all that, or EV vehicles. 166 00:10:02,890 --> 00:10:05,090 Alright, let's, but these decisions are a little bit more 167 00:10:05,100 --> 00:10:07,180 minor. I'm just, I'm just expanding 168 00:10:07,190 --> 00:10:09,610 here just for the, for the sake of the conversation. 169 00:10:09,620 --> 00:10:12,420 You have decisions, you have options to say we have option 170 00:10:12,430 --> 00:10:16,270 123 or 4. These options are policy options 171 00:10:16,280 --> 00:10:19,980 and they're going to become law later round to her. 172 00:10:20,120 --> 00:10:24,640 You know which the Legislative Council and they look at legal 173 00:10:25,210 --> 00:10:33,520 to look at the risk and it's the legal where's job too play out 174 00:10:34,010 --> 00:10:37,160 the risk and it's always been that way. 175 00:10:37,890 --> 00:10:40,820 You lay out the risks and they say these are the risks that you 176 00:10:40,830 --> 00:10:42,790 have. If you choose this option. 177 00:10:42,800 --> 00:10:44,360 These are risk. You have this option and that 178 00:10:44,370 --> 00:10:48,280 option, but I find that a good lawyer and this is where the MBA 179 00:10:48,290 --> 00:10:54,640 kicked in not only and defies the risk, but looks at looks 180 00:10:54,650 --> 00:10:58,710 like a little bit more into, into what the questions asked, 181 00:11:00,500 --> 00:11:04,130 right. So I had a case, for example, 182 00:11:04,140 --> 00:11:08,540 not too long ago about, um, these bolts going on to EV 183 00:11:08,550 --> 00:11:16,830 vehicles. They have, the supply chain goes 184 00:11:16,840 --> 00:11:21,330 from United States to Canada on different parts of vehicles and, 185 00:11:21,340 --> 00:11:24,830 and, and, and they have this code and that code gives some 186 00:11:24,840 --> 00:11:27,230 tariffs and the tariffs becomes taxed. 187 00:11:27,380 --> 00:11:31,250 And this one becomes talks about the Kuzma agreement or the USMCA 188 00:11:31,380 --> 00:11:36,340 or whatever you want to call it, sheep that bolt. 189 00:11:36,350 --> 00:11:38,740 Should we put them in? Should we put them in Canada? 190 00:11:38,750 --> 00:11:42,650 Should we? You know, all these questions, I 191 00:11:42,660 --> 00:11:47,580 think that the MPA, what it did to me is that instead of just 192 00:11:47,590 --> 00:11:53,090 flat out looking at that bolt as an issue, as a legal issue, I 193 00:11:53,100 --> 00:11:57,760 look at it as like I'm going to call the person who's dealing 194 00:11:57,770 --> 00:12:00,710 with that policy and understand the business behind that bolt 195 00:12:01,090 --> 00:12:06,140 towards coming from where it is and see a different angle. 196 00:12:07,500 --> 00:12:11,480 So maybe that risk that I'm putting it is not that high. 197 00:12:11,540 --> 00:12:15,560 I mean, it's a bit lower. All that to say is that I'm 198 00:12:15,570 --> 00:12:19,330 trying to enable my business as much as possible because that 199 00:12:19,370 --> 00:12:21,850 way you want to do is you wanted to create a service. 200 00:12:21,860 --> 00:12:24,140 You know you're not. You don't want to be a fear 201 00:12:24,150 --> 00:12:29,510 mongering Great Wall of China every time they call you, it's 202 00:12:29,520 --> 00:12:31,230 always no, it's always no, It's always a risk. 203 00:12:31,240 --> 00:12:33,490 No, you want to say well, no, there's an option. 204 00:12:33,820 --> 00:12:37,900 There's another option as well. Alright, I can't tell you much 205 00:12:37,910 --> 00:12:40,180 other story about the bulk of the swamp going, but I'll tell 206 00:12:40,190 --> 00:12:46,630 you this. What I, I, I, I, I counseled was 207 00:12:46,640 --> 00:12:50,800 that we need to look at different ways that have that 208 00:12:50,810 --> 00:12:55,320 bull travel around because that bolt essentially it's steel made 209 00:12:55,330 --> 00:12:56,690 from Canada. It goes back to the United 210 00:12:56,700 --> 00:12:58,880 States, it goes back to come back to Canada. 211 00:12:58,890 --> 00:13:04,200 I mean that whatever that old is made of, it's it's coming back 212 00:13:04,210 --> 00:13:08,280 and forth crossing the border five time zones. 213 00:13:10,030 --> 00:13:13,980 So a business perspective of just saying, oh, you know, it's 214 00:13:13,990 --> 00:13:17,620 flat out, you know, that pulled, you know, that bolt is, is is is 215 00:13:17,630 --> 00:13:19,980 bad. It's it's not a good service. 216 00:13:20,490 --> 00:13:23,600 So I'll have to say having a good business mind, an MBA gives 217 00:13:23,610 --> 00:13:28,010 you a good mind of human human resources, Project management 218 00:13:29,410 --> 00:13:32,850 gives you a good insight on how supply chain works. 219 00:13:34,670 --> 00:13:38,760 And if you're going to go to business law, it gives you a 220 00:13:38,770 --> 00:13:42,060 sign of how to run a business, which gives you all the risks 221 00:13:42,070 --> 00:13:44,920 that a business do, but all of the risks, but also all the 222 00:13:44,990 --> 00:13:50,260 detriment and the, the hard work that a lot of business people go 223 00:13:50,270 --> 00:13:57,060 through to build a business. And um, as a lawyer, if you 224 00:13:57,070 --> 00:13:59,600 understand that, you would say that maybe, you know, you could 225 00:13:59,610 --> 00:14:01,080 have be a little bit softer in council. 226 00:14:03,950 --> 00:14:06,160 Fantastic. I always love to hear that from 227 00:14:06,170 --> 00:14:08,980 from lawyers who I drew worked specifically a lot with 228 00:14:08,990 --> 00:14:11,260 businesses or have that that business background. 229 00:14:11,270 --> 00:14:14,200 And recently one of our episodes is actually called the office of 230 00:14:14,210 --> 00:14:18,320 yes and I talked to in houses. I like that spoke a lot about 231 00:14:18,330 --> 00:14:20,770 that and and I love that you touched on the same subject. 232 00:14:20,780 --> 00:14:23,210 You'll have no clients. Fair enough. 233 00:14:23,220 --> 00:14:24,840 No client. No, you'll have no clients. 234 00:14:24,850 --> 00:14:26,670 So you'll see. No, no, no, you have no clients. 235 00:14:26,680 --> 00:14:29,200 You'll understand. OK, well, it's this is a risk, 236 00:14:29,950 --> 00:14:33,140 but let's try left or let's right, right, let's try 237 00:14:33,150 --> 00:14:35,760 different ways. In different clients, we have a 238 00:14:35,770 --> 00:14:38,780 different kind of appetite for risk as well, right? 239 00:14:38,790 --> 00:14:41,750 So, so it's important to know the options because some people 240 00:14:41,760 --> 00:14:44,830 are just willing to be, you know, taking those risks and all 241 00:14:44,840 --> 00:14:47,030 of that. Yeah, actually that's you're 242 00:14:47,040 --> 00:14:49,180 making a really good point here, because there's a lot of small 243 00:14:49,190 --> 00:14:53,220 businesses in Ontario right now. They're dealing with the AI 244 00:14:53,860 --> 00:14:57,180 dealing with a lot of energy. Not energy is a big, it's a big 245 00:14:57,190 --> 00:15:04,140 thing right now coming in with the, um, data centres using 246 00:15:04,150 --> 00:15:08,110 different types of energy. Uh, there's, there's a lot, 247 00:15:08,330 --> 00:15:13,290 there's a lot going on and you cannot, you have to understand, 248 00:15:13,300 --> 00:15:15,730 there's some businesses that actually have, they're actually 249 00:15:16,680 --> 00:15:23,530 piercing into the Gray area of a non legislative wait. 250 00:15:23,580 --> 00:15:26,990 I mean, the AI, for example, is a lot of data, but I so, you 251 00:15:27,000 --> 00:15:29,440 know, and you can't and just be no, no, no, no, there's actually 252 00:15:29,450 --> 00:15:31,700 a business opportunity there. There's, there's a service to 253 00:15:31,710 --> 00:15:32,790 the client. You have to. 254 00:15:32,800 --> 00:15:35,530 You have to act on. It's amazing your gene. 255 00:15:35,840 --> 00:15:39,540 Now I want to know kind of like a different mindset as well. 256 00:15:39,550 --> 00:15:42,790 As we said, you're, you're very curious person, you've studied 257 00:15:42,800 --> 00:15:46,270 lots of different areas and, and you've been in the military 258 00:15:46,280 --> 00:15:49,110 before you work with National Defence, lots of very 259 00:15:49,120 --> 00:15:51,630 interesting roles. So we talked about kind of the, 260 00:15:51,640 --> 00:15:54,290 the lawyer mindset, that the business mindset, But I also 261 00:15:54,300 --> 00:15:56,990 wonder if there is kind of like a, a military mindset. 262 00:15:57,040 --> 00:16:00,110 I suppose that in the military a lot of decisions have to be, you 263 00:16:00,120 --> 00:16:03,670 know, immediate life saving and and so forth. 264 00:16:03,840 --> 00:16:06,540 And in law, we tend to, you know, kind of slow things that 265 00:16:06,550 --> 00:16:09,360 will analyze it. So I'm curious if you know your 266 00:16:09,370 --> 00:16:13,800 experience in the military has, has shaped the urgency in which 267 00:16:13,810 --> 00:16:16,960 you work with legal issues, legal strategy. 268 00:16:17,290 --> 00:16:20,260 So I'm, I'm just curious to, to hear a little bit about that 269 00:16:20,270 --> 00:16:22,400 from your experience. And I'll tell you this, I'm 270 00:16:22,410 --> 00:16:29,100 still in the military, I'm still an officer and and tag Hillary 271 00:16:29,110 --> 00:16:35,690 officer and cannon forces. But I will tell you this, what 272 00:16:35,700 --> 00:16:39,790 the military taught me was not to act quickly. 273 00:16:41,410 --> 00:16:43,720 I did, but I think they really had that. 274 00:16:43,730 --> 00:16:48,910 But what it did do to me is that it taught me to work as a team. 275 00:16:51,660 --> 00:16:54,350 That's what you would tell me, because I'll tell you this when 276 00:16:54,360 --> 00:16:59,250 you're in, when you're in a, in a tank, for example, right. 277 00:16:59,340 --> 00:17:03,250 You're in a mission. You have troops to feed. 278 00:17:03,300 --> 00:17:07,890 You have kidney maginess. Yeah, I even have to think to 279 00:17:07,900 --> 00:17:14,400 give halal Russian packs to someone that I have to think 280 00:17:14,410 --> 00:17:19,819 about if someone's getting divorced, I'm leading 260 people 281 00:17:19,990 --> 00:17:22,400 into battle. I mean, that's a lot of people 282 00:17:22,410 --> 00:17:27,089 and the ages of 18 to 30. I mean, it's, it's, it's, it's 283 00:17:27,099 --> 00:17:31,010 absolutely enormous that I need to take care of their pay, the 284 00:17:31,020 --> 00:17:35,320 welfare of the vacation, their well-being, but also have to 285 00:17:35,330 --> 00:17:43,130 take care of the mission, the rules of, of a fire, the the 286 00:17:43,140 --> 00:17:48,710 rules of, of engagements. If we take prisoners, there's 287 00:17:48,720 --> 00:17:51,030 legal that tactic deal with that as well. 288 00:17:51,100 --> 00:17:52,720 There's a lot of things to think about. 289 00:17:54,410 --> 00:17:57,680 Tank breaks down. What you do, you know, you break 290 00:17:57,690 --> 00:17:59,690 down all the time. You can just imagine you have 291 00:17:59,700 --> 00:18:01,220 potholes here at the carpet down. 292 00:18:01,230 --> 00:18:03,760 Imagine, imagine Afghanistan, how much things to break down. 293 00:18:03,810 --> 00:18:07,500 All that to say, to keep the story short, is that you need to 294 00:18:07,510 --> 00:18:11,510 work as a team. I I thought myself with that by 295 00:18:11,520 --> 00:18:18,630 myself, I know not a lot. I actually know nothing like in 296 00:18:18,640 --> 00:18:22,540 a law firm. Everyone has had different 297 00:18:23,110 --> 00:18:24,930 experience. It has a file. 298 00:18:24,940 --> 00:18:30,270 They've had the types of work they've had that the people that 299 00:18:30,280 --> 00:18:32,950 they're, they're experience before being in law school, they 300 00:18:33,100 --> 00:18:37,250 that they bring in everyone's just brings in a wealth of 301 00:18:37,260 --> 00:18:41,550 knowledge. The secret is it's a big good 302 00:18:41,560 --> 00:18:48,690 collab ordinator. So when you have a file, you 303 00:18:48,700 --> 00:18:53,910 have a file and I could not as a lawyer, you know, you find files 304 00:18:53,920 --> 00:19:00,030 that are completely ridiculous, like off the chart really goes. 305 00:19:00,040 --> 00:19:03,820 You have no idea, right. I had lawyers that had trade 306 00:19:03,830 --> 00:19:07,700 lawyers, for example, and I think your your listeners are 307 00:19:07,710 --> 00:19:10,280 gonna love this. They had files from Japan to get 308 00:19:10,290 --> 00:19:12,140 this. Japan is a trade law file. 309 00:19:12,480 --> 00:19:17,740 A file from Japan coming in saw it was child pornography and it 310 00:19:17,750 --> 00:19:23,550 was like it was anti comic book stuff. 311 00:19:25,760 --> 00:19:31,160 You have crazy files right coming in, but as soon as you, 312 00:19:31,220 --> 00:19:35,630 you, you, you, um, you understand, for example, that 313 00:19:36,530 --> 00:19:40,260 luckily that person, for example, had a Japanese lawyer 314 00:19:40,270 --> 00:19:43,340 beside them and saying that's not child pornography. 315 00:19:43,410 --> 00:19:46,520 That's actually comic, that's actually art from Japan. 316 00:19:46,630 --> 00:19:50,820 And they were able to they went to the CBSA became security 317 00:19:50,830 --> 00:19:55,660 Border Agency and then they actually went into the to the to 318 00:19:55,670 --> 00:19:58,780 The Supremes is the Superior Court of Hunter and. 319 00:20:00,350 --> 00:20:04,690 And they went in and did the, they discussed this and they 320 00:20:04,700 --> 00:20:07,770 said, no, this is this is artwork. 321 00:20:08,510 --> 00:20:11,900 And it worked. All that to say, you need to be 322 00:20:12,250 --> 00:20:15,020 really good collaborator with the people that you work with, 323 00:20:15,030 --> 00:20:19,660 because alone there's not much you can do. 324 00:20:19,950 --> 00:20:21,960 As a lawyer, there's not much you can do. 325 00:20:22,880 --> 00:20:25,900 You have to work with the people that you're working with. 326 00:20:25,910 --> 00:20:30,820 You need to know them, understand them, know where 327 00:20:30,830 --> 00:20:35,920 they're coming from and value that value the knowledge that 328 00:20:35,930 --> 00:20:40,150 they bring in Like that case that I thought it was completely 329 00:20:40,990 --> 00:20:43,560 crazy. I mean, you know, someone coming 330 00:20:43,570 --> 00:20:48,560 in with, you know, there's this there's like you FT student that 331 00:20:48,570 --> 00:20:52,610 went to Japan and brought brought some comics, but that 332 00:20:52,620 --> 00:20:59,590 coming had some sexual explicit stuff and and that was like, my 333 00:20:59,600 --> 00:21:02,580 God, you know, but how do they work it out? 334 00:21:03,410 --> 00:21:06,400 That case would not have been won trying the CSA. 335 00:21:06,910 --> 00:21:11,180 If that person that was not working with somebody else that 336 00:21:11,190 --> 00:21:15,170 knew about that and had known about that, that case would have 337 00:21:15,180 --> 00:21:16,210 been lost. That person would have been 338 00:21:16,220 --> 00:21:17,840 jailed. Right now that person was 339 00:21:17,850 --> 00:21:23,470 released. Um, but all I have to say is I'm 340 00:21:23,480 --> 00:21:27,580 just thinking about that case because I never had a case that 341 00:21:27,870 --> 00:21:35,920 I would call it that, that crazy or what if and more in my desk. 342 00:21:35,930 --> 00:21:40,350 But all that to say is it was all that. 343 00:21:40,530 --> 00:21:45,000 I think it's coordinating, collaborating in the military. 344 00:21:45,010 --> 00:21:49,700 I learned that by myself. I'm I'm nobody. 345 00:21:49,790 --> 00:21:54,590 I need to when I'm in the military, I needed to know the 346 00:21:54,640 --> 00:21:59,250 engineer. I needed to know the software 347 00:21:59,260 --> 00:22:02,110 engineers for the tanks. I needed to know the medics. 348 00:22:02,200 --> 00:22:07,770 I needed to know this. To that I need to know the to 349 00:22:07,780 --> 00:22:12,710 logistics officers very well, so as soon as there's an issue, 350 00:22:13,520 --> 00:22:18,100 they could just select U them right instead of having to go 351 00:22:18,110 --> 00:22:19,680 through all the people channels. Just what's up? 352 00:22:19,690 --> 00:22:22,450 Hey have an issue. Don't worry, Eugene, I know 353 00:22:22,460 --> 00:22:25,180 exactly what to do. Boom, it's done at. 354 00:22:26,260 --> 00:22:30,330 That's how we lived through my eight years in the military and 355 00:22:30,340 --> 00:22:33,470 I survived. The military is by being friends 356 00:22:33,480 --> 00:22:35,610 with a lot of people. Just be friends with them. 357 00:22:35,620 --> 00:22:39,920 Just take them out for a beer, have coffee chats, go for wings. 358 00:22:40,320 --> 00:22:42,290 I don't know. Just do something. 359 00:22:42,340 --> 00:22:44,870 Get to know them because they're going to save your life. 360 00:22:45,730 --> 00:22:47,860 Maybe not in the military sense, but they're going to save your 361 00:22:47,870 --> 00:22:50,100 life into files that you have. And that's what happened with a 362 00:22:50,110 --> 00:22:53,610 lot of my friends. That's fantastic. 363 00:22:53,620 --> 00:22:57,170 And, and I think that really kind of takes us to a good point 364 00:22:57,180 --> 00:22:59,710 here. I wanted to to finish up today 365 00:22:59,720 --> 00:23:03,210 asking about the, the field you chose for yourself in law after 366 00:23:03,220 --> 00:23:04,910 being exposed to all these different areas. 367 00:23:04,920 --> 00:23:07,890 And I feel like from my experience talking with other 368 00:23:07,900 --> 00:23:10,730 law students or early career professionals, there's always a 369 00:23:10,740 --> 00:23:14,330 little bit of a, of a question of like, what should I do with 370 00:23:14,340 --> 00:23:16,360 my career? Where should I take it? 371 00:23:16,370 --> 00:23:19,310 Should I pursue my interest or should I kind of look into, you 372 00:23:19,320 --> 00:23:22,130 know, the stuff that I need right now to, you know, the 373 00:23:22,140 --> 00:23:25,180 compensation and so forth. So I'm curious if you have any 374 00:23:25,190 --> 00:23:29,640 kind of advice that you know you wish you had received before or 375 00:23:29,650 --> 00:23:32,350 something that you tell people when you're when you're talking 376 00:23:32,360 --> 00:23:35,490 to younger lawyers? Yeah, well, first of all, this 377 00:23:35,500 --> 00:23:41,090 idea of 1L2L, I think it's complete just garbage. 378 00:23:41,920 --> 00:23:44,510 It's not good. It's two years of your life. 379 00:23:44,520 --> 00:23:46,650 Like, calm down, it's not gonna work. 380 00:23:48,030 --> 00:23:51,490 If it does, great, but it's not how you want. 381 00:23:51,530 --> 00:23:57,950 You don't have to fit the cookie cutter being a legal 382 00:23:57,960 --> 00:24:00,990 professional, for example, working at that, I worked a lot 383 00:24:01,000 --> 00:24:04,050 in Europe as a diplomat and I worked a lot in International 384 00:24:04,060 --> 00:24:07,230 Court of Justice and I worked in the Canadian Embassy in Belgrade 385 00:24:07,240 --> 00:24:08,940 and other occasional organizations. 386 00:24:11,020 --> 00:24:13,700 I gotta tell you this, they love Canadian lawyers. 387 00:24:14,920 --> 00:24:17,080 They love them. I, I had no idea, but they have 388 00:24:17,090 --> 00:24:18,830 something. They have something that became 389 00:24:18,840 --> 00:24:20,770 lawyers. As soon as there's again lawyers 390 00:24:20,780 --> 00:24:22,880 student, it's a it's an opportunity. 391 00:24:22,890 --> 00:24:28,140 I think that, you know, you don't have to be a lawyer if you 392 00:24:28,150 --> 00:24:32,150 study the law and even tell you borrow, there's a lot of great 393 00:24:32,160 --> 00:24:34,980 things you can do. And even better than being a 394 00:24:34,990 --> 00:24:38,250 lawyer, you're better paid. Sometimes it's the difference 395 00:24:38,300 --> 00:24:42,890 that someone just gets gives you for being a lawyer to being a 396 00:24:42,900 --> 00:24:46,010 communications officer, to be a logistics officer. 397 00:24:46,020 --> 00:24:49,260 In other words, the military, but I'm talking about also in 398 00:24:49,270 --> 00:24:53,080 the private sector. It's just more thoughtful than 399 00:24:53,090 --> 00:24:56,980 this person understands the rules and regulations around 400 00:24:56,990 --> 00:25:00,510 what they're doing. Why not? 401 00:25:00,750 --> 00:25:03,810 They've had a bachelors before. I'll be perfect. 402 00:25:03,820 --> 00:25:11,030 Could study before? Why not when you mention pay? 403 00:25:11,910 --> 00:25:17,420 I know Lloyd. The lawyers that I know that are 404 00:25:17,430 --> 00:25:22,970 mostly paid are not lawyers Would be happy in lawyers before 405 00:25:24,680 --> 00:25:31,670 in a long shot. The ambassadors that I've met, 406 00:25:31,720 --> 00:25:36,930 I've met a lot of heads, heads of states as well, all lawyers 407 00:25:37,240 --> 00:25:44,650 and great, great, great people. And I think that the idea is 408 00:25:44,660 --> 00:25:50,960 that you or an interior lawyer, you do interior bar, you do your 409 00:25:50,970 --> 00:25:56,370 L1L2 and you gotta go to fast scanner field chi and that's 410 00:25:56,380 --> 00:25:58,050 your life. I think it's completely false. 411 00:25:58,060 --> 00:26:02,750 I think it's I think it's it's terrible. 412 00:26:02,820 --> 00:26:07,230 It's not the way to you should view your your practice any. 413 00:26:07,240 --> 00:26:10,700 Sense I appreciate it I feel like that's one of the coolest 414 00:26:10,710 --> 00:26:13,890 parts about being able to interview so many lawyers who 415 00:26:13,900 --> 00:26:17,150 are working in interesting projects all across the world is 416 00:26:17,160 --> 00:26:19,690 really that I get to hear the everything in between. 417 00:26:19,700 --> 00:26:22,870 You know, people who kind of like went to middle school and 418 00:26:22,880 --> 00:26:24,700 decided that they wanted to be a lawyer. 419 00:26:24,800 --> 00:26:28,410 And ever since, you know, we're very happy with the firm life 420 00:26:28,460 --> 00:26:31,610 all the way to people who went through really, really different 421 00:26:31,620 --> 00:26:34,290 pathways. And I think that's what's really 422 00:26:34,300 --> 00:26:36,430 cool about it always that like you have a choice. 423 00:26:36,440 --> 00:26:39,790 Nobody does a kind of a guess on your head and and you you got 424 00:26:39,800 --> 00:26:40,920 your shoes. So I think. 425 00:26:40,930 --> 00:26:42,710 That's yeah. And especially if I have to tell 426 00:26:42,720 --> 00:26:46,810 you as well, that or, and if, if you know for your listeners, I 427 00:26:46,820 --> 00:26:51,420 could tell you that if you're a lawyer in Ontario, actually 428 00:26:51,610 --> 00:26:55,030 maybe that lawyer, if you studied law in Ontario without 429 00:26:55,040 --> 00:26:59,330 being a lawyer, you could be an international lawyer. 430 00:27:01,790 --> 00:27:04,880 You, you, you can go to The Hague as I have. 431 00:27:06,220 --> 00:27:10,910 You can work in Vienna. You can work in Geneva, we can 432 00:27:10,920 --> 00:27:15,920 work in the OR in New York as well as a jurist. 433 00:27:16,740 --> 00:27:18,440 They call them jurists and lawyers. 434 00:27:18,450 --> 00:27:24,670 They call them jurist because I wished you have, um, offices of 435 00:27:24,740 --> 00:27:28,640 lawyers of almost, you know, 30 different countries. 436 00:27:28,650 --> 00:27:33,900 Sometimes they didn't all pass the New York bar or the The 437 00:27:33,910 --> 00:27:36,220 Hague bar. They don't even speak hall Dutch 438 00:27:36,290 --> 00:27:40,850 or, you know, Flemish or French. But you know, they, they're 439 00:27:40,860 --> 00:27:42,980 lawyers. They, they, they, they studied 440 00:27:42,990 --> 00:27:47,390 law in their country. So I would definitely invite 441 00:27:47,400 --> 00:27:52,570 your listeners to also look at that option as well to look at 442 00:27:52,580 --> 00:27:55,150 broad and look at international organizations. 443 00:27:56,020 --> 00:27:59,390 Be jurist for international organizations because you don't 444 00:27:59,400 --> 00:28:05,080 have to be in interracial law Chapel organizations too. 445 00:28:05,430 --> 00:28:07,360 There's no bar. It doesn't exist. 446 00:28:07,400 --> 00:28:09,460 There's no international. Bar, I really appreciate you 447 00:28:09,470 --> 00:28:12,360 taking the time to share your thoughts with us today. 448 00:28:12,450 --> 00:28:14,480 Thank you all for turning into today's episode. 449 00:28:15,190 --> 00:28:16,540 Thank you. Thank you for having me.