1 00:00:13,080 --> 00:00:15,010 Welcome to your Studying Law Around the World. 2 00:00:15,220 --> 00:00:18,070 I'm Claudio Klaus. In each episode, I talk with 3 00:00:18,080 --> 00:00:21,050 lawyers, law students, and professors from different parts 4 00:00:21,060 --> 00:00:25,310 of the world to talk about legal education, careers, and what the 5 00:00:25,320 --> 00:00:27,020 profession looks like in real life. 6 00:00:27,730 --> 00:00:30,840 We talk about the hard parts, the surprises, and the decisions 7 00:00:30,850 --> 00:00:33,980 that shaped their paths. Whether you're planning to study 8 00:00:33,990 --> 00:00:37,600 abroad, thinking about working in another legal system, or just 9 00:00:37,610 --> 00:00:41,730 curious about how law works around the world, this podcast 10 00:00:41,740 --> 00:00:45,240 is for you. This episode is sponsored by 11 00:00:45,250 --> 00:00:47,900 Contender. How are you doing on LinkedIn? 12 00:00:48,390 --> 00:00:52,740 If you're like 99% of lawyers, your answer is not great. 13 00:00:52,850 --> 00:00:55,720 Which makes sense. You learned LinkedIn as the 14 00:00:55,730 --> 00:01:00,180 place to stash a digital resume and share firm pressers, so no 15 00:01:00,190 --> 00:01:03,460 wonder your LinkedIn presence is somewhere between vanilla and 16 00:01:03,470 --> 00:01:06,390 nonexistent. But I've got good news. 17 00:01:06,740 --> 00:01:09,970 Since we all learned LinkedIn the wrong way, it's pretty easy 18 00:01:09,980 --> 00:01:12,640 to attract more positive attention for you or your 19 00:01:12,650 --> 00:01:15,800 business. Since 2022, Contender has been 20 00:01:15,810 --> 00:01:19,770 the premier agency helping lawyers go from invisible train. 21 00:01:19,780 --> 00:01:23,430 Possible to ignore on LinkedIn. To learn more, check out 22 00:01:23,440 --> 00:01:28,950 www.contenderllc.com. Tell them Claudio sent you. 23 00:01:35,550 --> 00:01:38,880 Today, I have the opportunity to interview Fernando Garcia, who 24 00:01:38,890 --> 00:01:42,020 is the Chief Legal and People Officer at Author Group. 25 00:01:42,090 --> 00:01:44,120 Thank you so much for joining us today, Fernando. 26 00:01:44,250 --> 00:01:47,290 My absolute pleasure to be here and thank you very much. 27 00:01:48,300 --> 00:01:50,750 Well, thank you for your time and willingness to be here in 28 00:01:50,760 --> 00:01:54,490 the podcast today. We are super excited to ask you 29 00:01:54,500 --> 00:01:57,350 many, many questions about your profession and how you got to 30 00:01:57,360 --> 00:01:59,690 where you're at today and just started off. 31 00:01:59,700 --> 00:02:02,430 I'd love for you to introduce yourself to your audience. 32 00:02:02,780 --> 00:02:05,410 Yeah, great. My name is Frank Garcia porn 33 00:02:05,420 --> 00:02:09,229 Argentina and grew up in Canada. So I've been here for a long, 34 00:02:09,240 --> 00:02:15,570 long time and just My role currently is a mix of both legal 35 00:02:15,580 --> 00:02:21,390 and HR, but I have close to 20 years in the general counsel 36 00:02:21,400 --> 00:02:26,490 role at different organizations. And my background previous to 37 00:02:26,500 --> 00:02:30,250 law school or to to my legal profession was labour relations 38 00:02:30,260 --> 00:02:33,350 and HR. So I had a, you know, I did my 39 00:02:33,410 --> 00:02:36,730 BA labour studies, it didn't masters of labour relations and 40 00:02:36,740 --> 00:02:40,490 I decided to go to law school, it the the legal education and 41 00:02:40,500 --> 00:02:43,520 then completed afterward the NBA as well. 42 00:02:43,580 --> 00:02:46,380 So I've always been interested and I've always had a passion 43 00:02:46,390 --> 00:02:50,580 about sort of the legal realm, but also business and HR. 44 00:02:50,590 --> 00:02:53,640 And I think those those three are three critical components of 45 00:02:53,650 --> 00:02:56,670 any organization they work for. And so it's something that I've 46 00:02:56,680 --> 00:02:58,820 always wanted to have a good understanding and a good grasp 47 00:02:58,830 --> 00:03:01,380 of three different type of practices and try to make best 48 00:03:01,390 --> 00:03:04,760 to bring them together in terms of my profession and in terms of 49 00:03:04,770 --> 00:03:05,840 how. I do my work. 50 00:03:05,920 --> 00:03:07,300 That's amazing. Alright. 51 00:03:07,370 --> 00:03:11,320 I love that you said that your, your background mixes everything 52 00:03:11,330 --> 00:03:14,280 that, that it sounds like what a good in-house lawyer would have, 53 00:03:14,290 --> 00:03:17,750 right, a good notion of, of what goes on in a business and then 54 00:03:17,760 --> 00:03:21,020 the HR portion of it. So that's just so fantastic. 55 00:03:21,570 --> 00:03:24,340 I would love to see if there was a master plan behind it, but 56 00:03:24,350 --> 00:03:27,920 it's sort of just happened as I that became knowledgeable, aware 57 00:03:27,930 --> 00:03:30,720 of one particular practice area. And then I thought, well, that's 58 00:03:30,730 --> 00:03:32,980 really interesting. I wonder how I can marry it with 59 00:03:32,990 --> 00:03:36,120 the other one. And so it just, I can't say I 60 00:03:36,130 --> 00:03:38,100 had a master plan. It just sort of happened. 61 00:03:38,110 --> 00:03:41,120 And then I went with opportunities as they came up. 62 00:03:41,850 --> 00:03:45,340 But it just, you know, I think there's a lot of, you know, 63 00:03:45,350 --> 00:03:48,280 complementary elements of the, of the function and the roles 64 00:03:48,290 --> 00:03:52,060 that, that I play. And that's how I've I've really 65 00:03:52,070 --> 00:03:55,930 fashioned my, my career and how I fashion my approach to to the 66 00:03:55,940 --> 00:04:00,010 legal practice. Amazing what you to dive right 67 00:04:00,020 --> 00:04:01,730 into the questions of today's podcast. 68 00:04:01,740 --> 00:04:05,550 I'd love to hear, you know, what first sparked that interest on 69 00:04:05,560 --> 00:04:08,840 you to become an in house counsel and you have a little 70 00:04:08,850 --> 00:04:11,830 bit more of this applying all of this education that you had and 71 00:04:11,840 --> 00:04:14,310 all these skills together. Yeah, absolutely. 72 00:04:14,320 --> 00:04:18,790 Why again, I started in human resources and labour relations. 73 00:04:18,800 --> 00:04:23,050 So I did some some work at Ontario Power Generation, the 74 00:04:23,060 --> 00:04:27,230 labour relations department there when I was when I was 75 00:04:27,420 --> 00:04:30,360 doing my masters. And, you know, I got to work 76 00:04:30,370 --> 00:04:33,630 with some really, really good professionals, both with regard 77 00:04:33,640 --> 00:04:37,990 to, to in house at the company, with regard to my labour 78 00:04:38,000 --> 00:04:40,630 relations department and also with external counsel. 79 00:04:40,750 --> 00:04:43,590 So that, that sort of got me thinking about maybe I should go 80 00:04:43,600 --> 00:04:44,830 to law school. I think it would be kind of 81 00:04:44,840 --> 00:04:47,120 cool. I did have, you know, a passion 82 00:04:47,130 --> 00:04:49,960 for labour relations at that time, the negotiations element 83 00:04:49,970 --> 00:04:53,090 of it, feeling grievances, arbitration, that kind of stuff 84 00:04:53,100 --> 00:04:55,880 that you, it's a good, logical next step to go to law school. 85 00:04:56,090 --> 00:04:59,250 So I did that. And I had already, like I said 86 00:04:59,260 --> 00:05:02,190 before, I had already masters of, of labour relations and 87 00:05:02,200 --> 00:05:04,560 background in that. So when I, when I was going 88 00:05:04,570 --> 00:05:07,500 through law school, like I tried to focus most of my courses in 89 00:05:07,510 --> 00:05:13,040 labour relations type realm. And I graduated, went to work at 90 00:05:13,050 --> 00:05:16,020 a, at a law firm, a boutique labour employment law firm. 91 00:05:16,190 --> 00:05:18,250 And I really enjoyed it was great experience. 92 00:05:18,690 --> 00:05:22,680 But I, I made a decision at that point that I didn't necessarily 93 00:05:22,690 --> 00:05:26,330 want to be brought into a file to deal with an issue and then 94 00:05:26,340 --> 00:05:30,350 go away. I, I love more the being part of 95 00:05:30,360 --> 00:05:34,450 the initial strategy, developing the strategy, be part of the 96 00:05:34,590 --> 00:05:37,390 implementation of strategy and seeing it through to the end. 97 00:05:37,720 --> 00:05:41,200 I also liked the idea of being with the same people, working 98 00:05:41,210 --> 00:05:44,130 with the same people over and over again on a longer term 99 00:05:44,140 --> 00:05:45,850 relationship. You know, I always say it's like 100 00:05:45,860 --> 00:05:49,160 a marathon rather than a Sprint. And so that those were things 101 00:05:49,170 --> 00:05:53,770 that really attracted me to be in house versus sort of in a law 102 00:05:53,780 --> 00:05:57,290 firm somewhere where you got to deal with specific issues and 103 00:05:57,300 --> 00:06:00,490 then you walked away. Or even more importantly, when 104 00:06:00,500 --> 00:06:03,150 you're in the house, you tend to work on different elements. 105 00:06:03,160 --> 00:06:06,010 So, you know, one day, especially the GC and a smaller 106 00:06:06,020 --> 00:06:08,590 mid-size firm, one day you're working in real estate, not in 107 00:06:08,600 --> 00:06:10,510 the next year dealing with labour relations matter. 108 00:06:10,520 --> 00:06:12,220 When you're working on a contract for you, then you're 109 00:06:12,230 --> 00:06:15,960 working on negotiation. So if no single day is the same 110 00:06:15,970 --> 00:06:19,660 as the other, I'm just the type of person that if I was the 111 00:06:19,670 --> 00:06:24,680 lawyer in charge of forms 374C or whatever, I would just say I 112 00:06:24,690 --> 00:06:27,750 would not do well. I like the diversity of, of, you 113 00:06:27,760 --> 00:06:30,460 know, work. I like the, the being involved 114 00:06:30,470 --> 00:06:34,600 early on, not just firefighting. So I thought that was more a 115 00:06:34,610 --> 00:06:37,650 better fit towards in house. And I will say that my 116 00:06:37,660 --> 00:06:40,960 experience has been that indeed that was right decision for me, 117 00:06:41,130 --> 00:06:44,400 not for everybody maybe, but for me that is the best choice for 118 00:06:44,410 --> 00:06:46,710 for my own capabilities and my own interests. 119 00:06:47,800 --> 00:06:51,440 Well, that's amazing. And in the in this work some 120 00:06:51,450 --> 00:06:54,980 years ago, you, you launched this whole idea of being, you 121 00:06:54,990 --> 00:06:58,050 know, plus shaped lawyer. So you talked about the 122 00:06:58,060 --> 00:07:01,970 importance that in-house counsel to to be a little more of that, 123 00:07:01,980 --> 00:07:06,400 you know, be that pre active lawyer as you put into articles 124 00:07:06,410 --> 00:07:08,820 in the past. And I'd love to to know a little 125 00:07:08,830 --> 00:07:13,280 more about what those terms mean and and how they change the way 126 00:07:13,290 --> 00:07:15,310 we think about legal carriers as well. 127 00:07:15,610 --> 00:07:18,340 Yeah, absolutely. And there's a concept or model 128 00:07:18,350 --> 00:07:21,480 out there called the T shaped lawyer and it's a great concept. 129 00:07:21,490 --> 00:07:24,720 And the concept is that, but you're sort of horizontal skill 130 00:07:24,730 --> 00:07:28,880 set is your ability to know the law and work within the law. 131 00:07:28,970 --> 00:07:32,830 And all lawyers have that right. And you go to law school, you 132 00:07:32,840 --> 00:07:35,630 get trained to be a lawyer. So you're very good at that 133 00:07:35,640 --> 00:07:37,970 piece of it. But then there's something else. 134 00:07:37,980 --> 00:07:40,810 I think especially for in-house counsel, the the value that you 135 00:07:40,820 --> 00:07:43,510 bring is not not just naughty pay. 136 00:07:43,520 --> 00:07:46,230 This is what the law says. Great. 137 00:07:46,560 --> 00:07:49,670 But you have to be able to tie that into the multiple elements 138 00:07:49,680 --> 00:07:51,790 of being a proper, you know, multiple lawyer. 139 00:07:51,800 --> 00:07:53,870 And that that means, you know, knowing us, having a good 140 00:07:53,880 --> 00:07:56,300 understanding of the business, having a good understanding of 141 00:07:56,310 --> 00:08:00,110 the financial elements, having a good understanding of the, you 142 00:08:00,120 --> 00:08:03,770 know, the team that the risk of tolerance of the organization. 143 00:08:03,780 --> 00:08:08,430 Why did we sort of things. So the the broader perspective 144 00:08:08,480 --> 00:08:12,210 or the broader tool sets that you bring in to being in house 145 00:08:12,220 --> 00:08:16,070 counsel mean that you can have political knowledge you want and 146 00:08:16,080 --> 00:08:18,610 be a very good lawyer. That doesn't necessarily mean 147 00:08:18,620 --> 00:08:20,110 you will be a good in-house counsel. 148 00:08:20,120 --> 00:08:24,110 In-house counsel requires a deeper understanding of other 149 00:08:24,120 --> 00:08:28,910 areas as well of that affect your decision, that affect the, 150 00:08:28,920 --> 00:08:32,070 you know, the implementation of the decision making you evolved. 151 00:08:32,080 --> 00:08:35,190 So that the lawyer sort of influenced me quite a bit that 152 00:08:35,200 --> 00:08:37,070 the concept. But then I said, hey, listen, 153 00:08:37,240 --> 00:08:38,690 there should be another element too. 154 00:08:38,700 --> 00:08:40,730 So just trying to get cute with the model. 155 00:08:40,880 --> 00:08:43,309 I added the little plus sheet, that little piece at the top, 156 00:08:43,320 --> 00:08:47,650 which said you can know all the skills and past and know how to 157 00:08:47,660 --> 00:08:49,490 do that. You could be good at, you know, 158 00:08:49,500 --> 00:08:51,610 project management, You can be good at all these other 159 00:08:51,620 --> 00:08:55,550 elements, But there's also an emotional intelligence element 160 00:08:56,060 --> 00:08:58,800 that's very critical of being a successful in-house counsel. 161 00:08:58,890 --> 00:09:01,660 That means, you know, being able to work with people across 162 00:09:01,670 --> 00:09:04,320 multiple jurisdictions, you know, in diverse working 163 00:09:04,330 --> 00:09:07,260 environments, a good mindset in terms of, you know, not being a 164 00:09:07,270 --> 00:09:11,080 department of no, knowing how to deal with internal conflict, 165 00:09:11,390 --> 00:09:14,260 being able to manage all that. And that that's sort of not a 166 00:09:14,270 --> 00:09:16,980 skill per se in terms of a skill they can learn. 167 00:09:17,050 --> 00:09:19,370 That's sort of an emotional skill set. 168 00:09:19,380 --> 00:09:22,380 And that I think that's right. Added that the additional piece 169 00:09:22,390 --> 00:09:25,020 at the top of the, the plus shape layer concept. 170 00:09:25,330 --> 00:09:27,140 I mean, it was just an idea. It's out there. 171 00:09:27,150 --> 00:09:29,220 And he had quite a bit of success at the time. 172 00:09:29,230 --> 00:09:32,340 And, you know, I wrote a lot of articles about it and it was an 173 00:09:32,350 --> 00:09:34,260 interesting battle. At the end of the day, if you 174 00:09:34,270 --> 00:09:38,740 were to sum all that up into one, you know, small box, the 175 00:09:38,750 --> 00:09:43,600 concept is when you're in house, you should try to always develop 176 00:09:43,610 --> 00:09:47,650 yourself and gruel to know as many different areas, get 177 00:09:47,660 --> 00:09:51,610 involved in as many different matters as you can get in there 178 00:09:51,620 --> 00:09:54,070 early. Ask for, you know, additional 179 00:09:54,080 --> 00:09:56,410 responsibilities and always grow, right? 180 00:09:56,420 --> 00:10:00,130 Always look at what am I doing to gain more knowledge, gain 181 00:10:00,140 --> 00:10:03,150 more experience or grow my own experience and be part of the 182 00:10:03,160 --> 00:10:05,730 team whereby you not just part of the team to give legal 183 00:10:05,740 --> 00:10:08,020 advice, but you're part of the team to implement decisions and 184 00:10:08,030 --> 00:10:10,630 to, to build those decisions and strategies. 185 00:10:10,820 --> 00:10:14,290 So it's, it's, it's a whole perspective of, you know, how 186 00:10:14,300 --> 00:10:17,760 you can grow yourself, improve yourself and become more and 187 00:10:17,770 --> 00:10:19,550 more valuable to the organization. 188 00:10:19,560 --> 00:10:21,930 That's fantastic. And I'm so happy to hear that 189 00:10:21,940 --> 00:10:24,950 this is something that that more professionals are thinking of. 190 00:10:24,960 --> 00:10:28,000 And thank you for, for taking your time to, you know, put 191 00:10:28,010 --> 00:10:30,520 some, some words out there on this topic as well. 192 00:10:30,530 --> 00:10:33,600 I think it's so important more and more that we realize that 193 00:10:33,610 --> 00:10:37,460 our, our responsibilities, not only legal work, right, but 194 00:10:37,470 --> 00:10:39,120 really understanding all of those things. 195 00:10:39,130 --> 00:10:42,780 And I'm sure that the most successful in-house counsel or 196 00:10:42,850 --> 00:10:45,680 just lawyers in general do have those notions really clear to 197 00:10:45,690 --> 00:10:48,760 them. Because they couldn't find the, 198 00:10:48,810 --> 00:10:53,460 the, the amount of legal work you do becomes less and less of 199 00:10:53,470 --> 00:10:56,220 proportion in terms of your, your day-to-day right. 200 00:10:56,230 --> 00:10:58,630 Managing people, working with teens, coming up with 201 00:10:58,640 --> 00:11:01,480 strategies, dealing with those kind of things become 202 00:11:01,490 --> 00:11:04,320 increasingly more important. And you tend to find you do less 203 00:11:04,330 --> 00:11:07,790 and less law and you do more and more managing those 204 00:11:07,800 --> 00:11:10,540 relationships, you know, managing those strategies and 205 00:11:10,550 --> 00:11:13,050 becoming involved in that. So it's a different mindset. 206 00:11:13,060 --> 00:11:17,280 You're more, I always say you're more of a business person with a 207 00:11:17,350 --> 00:11:20,360 legal degree then you are a lawyer in many ways. 208 00:11:20,870 --> 00:11:22,620 So you got to like that. If that's what you like, if 209 00:11:22,630 --> 00:11:24,920 that's what you're passionate about, then that's when in-house 210 00:11:24,930 --> 00:11:27,980 counsel type functions or opportunities really become 211 00:11:27,990 --> 00:11:30,120 valuable to you. I know some people say, well, if 212 00:11:30,130 --> 00:11:33,620 you're going to, you know, have an easier work life balance, 213 00:11:34,110 --> 00:11:39,410 yeah, that could be true. Not always, but that, you know, 214 00:11:39,420 --> 00:11:41,560 it's a it's a function. But really what should be 215 00:11:41,570 --> 00:11:44,700 driving your interest is to, you know, really become part of the 216 00:11:44,710 --> 00:11:47,600 business and be ingrained in the business and, and take 217 00:11:47,610 --> 00:11:51,100 responsibility for what happens and be a real part of a team. 218 00:11:51,610 --> 00:11:54,390 I think that's really. The key that's amazing and 219 00:11:54,400 --> 00:11:57,630 steering the in this general area of, you know, doing all you 220 00:11:57,640 --> 00:12:00,430 can and all of that. I've, I've read some of your 221 00:12:00,440 --> 00:12:03,430 work again and you've been very open with your views about 222 00:12:03,440 --> 00:12:07,290 remote work, especially for early careers and young lawyers. 223 00:12:07,340 --> 00:12:10,480 So I'd love for you to tell us a little more about that, about 224 00:12:10,540 --> 00:12:14,410 why you think working in person will matter so much, especially 225 00:12:14,420 --> 00:12:17,420 for those junior lawyers and especially those with diverse 226 00:12:17,430 --> 00:12:21,970 backgrounds. Yeah, handful of the time that's 227 00:12:21,980 --> 00:12:25,900 invested in getting into work. I mean, especially younger 228 00:12:25,910 --> 00:12:29,720 lawyers now they're faced with really high cost of living in in 229 00:12:29,730 --> 00:12:32,950 major metropolitan areas where your job might be. 230 00:12:33,450 --> 00:12:36,020 It takes a long time to get into work and out of work. 231 00:12:36,030 --> 00:12:38,620 So if you have and you have the technology and the abilities to 232 00:12:38,630 --> 00:12:42,490 do things externally and remotely and from home, I don't 233 00:12:42,500 --> 00:12:45,100 think it's an issue so much of, you know, you're working less 234 00:12:45,110 --> 00:12:47,860 or, you know, an issue about being lazy. 235 00:12:47,870 --> 00:12:51,410 I think it really is an issue about being there in person and 236 00:12:51,420 --> 00:12:54,280 learning from others. When I look back into my own 237 00:12:54,290 --> 00:12:56,400 personal career. And again, everybody's situation 238 00:12:56,410 --> 00:12:57,960 is different. So I always like to preface 239 00:12:57,970 --> 00:13:01,000 that, right. But in my particular case, being 240 00:13:01,070 --> 00:13:04,180 on the ground, but walking from point A to point B for an 241 00:13:04,190 --> 00:13:06,170 arbitration hearing and discussing with their senior 242 00:13:06,180 --> 00:13:08,950 lawyer the strategy that we're going to be implementing it, why 243 00:13:08,960 --> 00:13:11,810 it's important. Being able to to get to that 244 00:13:11,820 --> 00:13:14,970 level of building a relationship, having you thrown 245 00:13:14,980 --> 00:13:19,070 into things last minute, meeting the parties, understanding the, 246 00:13:19,080 --> 00:13:21,220 you know, the reasons behind certain things and the 247 00:13:21,230 --> 00:13:22,930 strategies that you're going to be implementing. 248 00:13:23,080 --> 00:13:26,290 There was a huge value to that. There was a value to that. 249 00:13:26,300 --> 00:13:28,750 That only happens when you're there in person. 250 00:13:29,020 --> 00:13:31,390 You know, in the labour relations, some of the the 251 00:13:31,400 --> 00:13:34,650 hallway meetings that took place that resolved the matter or that 252 00:13:34,660 --> 00:13:36,840 resulted in a collective agreement being signed. 253 00:13:37,710 --> 00:13:39,380 Those are things that happen in prompt you. 254 00:13:39,390 --> 00:13:41,740 Those things were that were informal conversation that took 255 00:13:41,750 --> 00:13:43,740 place. They say, hey, junior, come 256 00:13:43,750 --> 00:13:45,560 along, listen to the conversation we're going to 257 00:13:45,570 --> 00:13:47,350 have. That's when you really learn 258 00:13:47,360 --> 00:13:51,120 that skill set And you know, you just can't battle that part in 259 00:13:51,170 --> 00:13:54,580 you can't just be, you know, hey, let's jump to a zoom call 260 00:13:54,590 --> 00:13:56,600 and and, you know, talk about the strategy. 261 00:13:56,690 --> 00:14:00,220 There is some of that, but most of it happens informally and 262 00:14:00,230 --> 00:14:04,080 happens without plan. And it happens sort of in an 263 00:14:04,090 --> 00:14:06,100 environment where if you're not there in person, you're missing 264 00:14:06,110 --> 00:14:07,880 that. So I think it's two parts 1. 265 00:14:07,930 --> 00:14:11,540 I think, you know, after investing so much time and 266 00:14:11,550 --> 00:14:14,990 effort and money into your legal career, if you can put in a good 267 00:14:15,000 --> 00:14:18,120 4-5 years and go into the office and learn from the people there, 268 00:14:18,170 --> 00:14:21,020 especially if you're working on a big firm and you know, you're 269 00:14:21,030 --> 00:14:23,420 getting thrown into pieces. Like I remember when I was at 270 00:14:23,430 --> 00:14:26,120 the, at the boutique labour employment law firm, we wanted 271 00:14:26,130 --> 00:14:28,520 to be the first person in the office everyday because guess 272 00:14:28,530 --> 00:14:30,110 what? A lawyer would walk down the 273 00:14:30,120 --> 00:14:32,170 hall, say, hey, I need somebody to go to court for me today. 274 00:14:32,180 --> 00:14:34,000 I can't make it. Who's going? 275 00:14:34,270 --> 00:14:36,800 You want to be the first person there to get the best assignment 276 00:14:36,810 --> 00:14:39,200 to be able to get in there, to get into court, to get into a 277 00:14:39,210 --> 00:14:42,780 meeting with a client. You got to, you just need to do 278 00:14:42,790 --> 00:14:44,900 that in person. On the other side of the coin, 279 00:14:45,150 --> 00:14:47,700 the senior orders, I think they can work from home. 280 00:14:47,710 --> 00:14:50,100 Hey, look, they, you know, they already have established their 281 00:14:50,110 --> 00:14:51,800 relationships. They already know what they're 282 00:14:51,810 --> 00:14:53,200 doing. They already have their 283 00:14:53,210 --> 00:14:55,080 practice. They don't need to learn from 284 00:14:55,090 --> 00:14:58,700 anyone, but they now have an obligation to teach others. 285 00:14:58,970 --> 00:15:01,560 And in the same vein, you can teach others through a 286 00:15:01,570 --> 00:15:03,440 conversation. You teach others through a video 287 00:15:03,450 --> 00:15:05,460 conference. But I think the biggest value 288 00:15:05,530 --> 00:15:08,310 still comes from taking that person under your wing, taking 289 00:15:08,320 --> 00:15:12,550 them to a session or a hearing, getting to meet the clients, 290 00:15:12,560 --> 00:15:15,270 getting that, you know, to understand how the the 291 00:15:15,280 --> 00:15:19,570 strategies developed or how we're developing, you know, you 292 00:15:19,580 --> 00:15:20,790 know, relationship with the client. 293 00:15:20,800 --> 00:15:23,330 How do we get a new client? Like there's so many elements 294 00:15:23,340 --> 00:15:25,270 that you really got to pee on the ground. 295 00:15:25,280 --> 00:15:28,990 And again, once you've invested that much time in effort into 296 00:15:29,000 --> 00:15:31,870 your career, just to add those other four or five years at a 297 00:15:31,880 --> 00:15:35,070 time, maybe hopefully you don't have as many other challenges or 298 00:15:35,080 --> 00:15:39,150 commitments of your time. Why not, Again, hard to see 299 00:15:39,160 --> 00:15:42,100 because I'm not unmindful that some people are single parents 300 00:15:42,110 --> 00:15:45,110 or some people don't have maybe childcare services and don't 301 00:15:45,120 --> 00:15:47,120 have all these other things. And I get that. 302 00:15:47,130 --> 00:15:48,620 I'm not trying to be mindful of that. 303 00:15:48,830 --> 00:15:52,880 But what I'm saying is if you can, you should be there whether 304 00:15:52,890 --> 00:15:54,730 it's required or not. I would be the first person 305 00:15:54,740 --> 00:15:56,760 there in the morning and I'll try to be the last person now. 306 00:15:56,770 --> 00:15:58,640 And these were the first 4-5 years to learn. 307 00:15:59,010 --> 00:16:00,760 I mean, that's what you're trying to do, trying to be out 308 00:16:00,770 --> 00:16:03,340 there to learn. And I just can't see it because 309 00:16:03,350 --> 00:16:05,920 as good as technology is, I don't see the same value. 310 00:16:06,160 --> 00:16:09,060 Like I've, I've been in situations where especially 311 00:16:09,070 --> 00:16:11,920 during cold where, you know, we're having virtual calls with 312 00:16:11,930 --> 00:16:15,470 a lawyer, a junior lawyer pops in and the senior lawyer after 313 00:16:15,480 --> 00:16:17,050 what goes? Yeah, I don't even know who that 314 00:16:17,060 --> 00:16:20,210 was. I never met them before you, you 315 00:16:20,220 --> 00:16:22,330 need to be there in person. And again, I'm the person that 316 00:16:22,340 --> 00:16:27,050 really values, you know, human relationships and human touch 317 00:16:27,060 --> 00:16:31,010 and, you know, just being, you know, a situation or advocation 318 00:16:31,020 --> 00:16:33,140 with the person. And I just don't think you can 319 00:16:33,150 --> 00:16:35,390 call it enough. Can you work three days a week 320 00:16:35,400 --> 00:16:37,430 from the office and maybe 2 days from the home? 321 00:16:37,440 --> 00:16:40,870 Sure, why not? But you know, I, I really think 322 00:16:40,880 --> 00:16:44,470 that if you can, then there's a value to that because if you're 323 00:16:44,480 --> 00:16:46,890 present, you're more likely to be visible. 324 00:16:46,960 --> 00:16:49,490 And when you talk about diversity, you know, I, I look 325 00:16:49,500 --> 00:16:52,840 at it and I think, you know, coming myself as a racialized 326 00:16:53,100 --> 00:16:57,390 lawyer early on when I came out and lost one particular, I 327 00:16:57,400 --> 00:17:00,390 didn't have the network so that people had I didn't have the 328 00:17:00,400 --> 00:17:02,690 connections in the profession that other people had. 329 00:17:02,780 --> 00:17:04,750 I had a disadvantage in that sense. 330 00:17:05,040 --> 00:17:08,510 And I had to build that and I had to develop that and I had to 331 00:17:08,520 --> 00:17:10,890 go to events to start building a network. 332 00:17:10,960 --> 00:17:13,630 And there was a value to that in person piece. 333 00:17:13,780 --> 00:17:16,770 So I think if you were to say, look, just dial it in, never 334 00:17:16,780 --> 00:17:18,859 have to come in. The people who are going to be 335 00:17:18,869 --> 00:17:23,109 adversely affected the most are can be that people who don't 336 00:17:23,119 --> 00:17:25,440 have those networks and who are challenged in that sense. 337 00:17:25,450 --> 00:17:27,790 And that has to be new Canadians who maybe don't have the 338 00:17:27,800 --> 00:17:30,010 connections here. That has to be diverse in the 339 00:17:30,200 --> 00:17:33,090 members from diverse communities that maybe don't have family 340 00:17:33,100 --> 00:17:35,640 members or lawyers or friends that are lawyers, grew up around 341 00:17:35,650 --> 00:17:37,830 lawyers. So they're the ones who I think 342 00:17:38,480 --> 00:17:41,050 even though in some ways it helps some maybe too, because 343 00:17:41,060 --> 00:17:43,060 you don't have to come into the office and if you live a little 344 00:17:43,070 --> 00:17:45,770 further away. But at the same time, I think 345 00:17:45,780 --> 00:17:48,000 there's also potentially that that person is going to be the 346 00:17:48,010 --> 00:17:51,090 ones that are hurt the most because, you know, I always like 347 00:17:51,100 --> 00:17:54,620 to see, you know, we fought long and hard to get a seat at the 348 00:17:54,630 --> 00:17:56,970 business table. The last thing you want to do is 349 00:17:56,980 --> 00:17:59,630 to not be at the table when there's decisions or or 350 00:17:59,640 --> 00:18:03,830 businesses, you know, situations being made and when you looking 351 00:18:03,840 --> 00:18:07,670 at it in house, right, You know, I worked at an airline before 352 00:18:07,840 --> 00:18:10,290 your pilots come had to come to work. 353 00:18:10,360 --> 00:18:12,150 Your baggage handlers had to come into work. 354 00:18:12,220 --> 00:18:13,890 Everybody else had to come into work. 355 00:18:14,040 --> 00:18:16,810 How does it look if the legal person, the person is not going 356 00:18:16,820 --> 00:18:19,340 to work, right, They're working for it just sends the wrong 357 00:18:19,350 --> 00:18:22,660 message, right. So one team effort and you know, 358 00:18:22,670 --> 00:18:24,780 it's, it's good to be that a person, somebody walking your 359 00:18:24,790 --> 00:18:27,090 own door say, hey, just gonna chat with you for a second 360 00:18:27,740 --> 00:18:29,670 because that, that tends to be where most of the issues. 361 00:18:29,680 --> 00:18:33,290 Are address very interesting. And I, I have to say that it's 362 00:18:33,300 --> 00:18:34,790 not hard to agree with you, right? 363 00:18:34,800 --> 00:18:37,860 If you think about especially senior leadership being there in 364 00:18:37,870 --> 00:18:39,710 the office every day, seeing who's there. 365 00:18:39,720 --> 00:18:43,990 And it does speak a lot, maybe even about the unspoken rules of 366 00:18:44,000 --> 00:18:46,730 the office here, right? Of the things that maybe people 367 00:18:46,740 --> 00:18:49,010 don't say, but but that are happening every day. 368 00:18:49,160 --> 00:18:52,110 And, and going forward, I'd love to hear a little bit more about 369 00:18:52,120 --> 00:18:54,370 another topic that I think it's really interesting. 370 00:18:54,380 --> 00:18:59,090 And you've wrote about before and it's about going in house 371 00:18:59,100 --> 00:19:01,470 after law school. And so we hear a lot about, you 372 00:19:01,480 --> 00:19:05,030 know, the traditional career path where you spend a 373 00:19:05,040 --> 00:19:09,290 considerable amount of time at a firm and then transition to 374 00:19:09,300 --> 00:19:14,130 going into in in household 0. But it seems that more and more 375 00:19:14,140 --> 00:19:17,870 different companies are open to having more junior professionals 376 00:19:17,880 --> 00:19:20,970 coming in or, you know, people who have who have had another 377 00:19:20,980 --> 00:19:23,910 career before law and all of that context dependent, of 378 00:19:23,920 --> 00:19:25,770 course. But based on your career and all 379 00:19:25,780 --> 00:19:29,330 of that, what would you say about this whole situation of 380 00:19:29,420 --> 00:19:30,990 how do you become an inhouse lawyer? 381 00:19:31,480 --> 00:19:33,630 Yeah, I'm going to give you the lawyer answer. 382 00:19:33,760 --> 00:19:37,600 It depends. And it really does depend on 383 00:19:37,780 --> 00:19:41,390 many variables in fact, right. Well, one thing, for example, on 384 00:19:41,400 --> 00:19:44,510 my situation, I had already a background in labour relations 385 00:19:44,520 --> 00:19:47,630 in HR, I had many years working in that area. 386 00:19:47,700 --> 00:19:51,030 So an opportunity became available as a general counsel 2 387 00:19:51,040 --> 00:19:54,510 years after I graduated from law school and the company in a 388 00:19:54,520 --> 00:19:59,200 trucking company really nice. But again, I had already quite a 389 00:19:59,210 --> 00:20:01,610 bit of experience in that area. That was an area that they had 390 00:20:01,620 --> 00:20:03,940 to fill. So it became easier for them to 391 00:20:03,950 --> 00:20:07,820 say hire this guy, even though, you know, I didn't work as long 392 00:20:07,830 --> 00:20:11,660 as I other people had to do in, in, you know, a law firm. 393 00:20:11,910 --> 00:20:14,380 The old model used to be, you know, you worked five years in 394 00:20:14,390 --> 00:20:17,840 the law firm, you became a specialist in a particular area 395 00:20:17,850 --> 00:20:20,930 or knowledgeable enough you then basically. 396 00:20:21,810 --> 00:20:27,670 Became that skill set for that company in that particular area. 397 00:20:27,680 --> 00:20:30,200 And then when you were in there, then you diversified and grew 398 00:20:30,210 --> 00:20:32,660 into other areas. You moved up, you know, up from 399 00:20:32,670 --> 00:20:36,420 a, you know, associate council from council to a senior council 400 00:20:36,430 --> 00:20:38,720 to associate general counsel to general counsel. 401 00:20:38,770 --> 00:20:41,450 So you moved in, but the key was how did you get your foot in the 402 00:20:41,460 --> 00:20:43,280 door? What skill set that you used to 403 00:20:43,290 --> 00:20:45,820 get in the door? And once you were in the door, 404 00:20:45,830 --> 00:20:47,440 it's all up to you to build your career. 405 00:20:48,120 --> 00:20:50,590 And that I mean, and there's still that path available for 406 00:20:50,600 --> 00:20:53,010 many people. But the point is now we have 407 00:20:53,020 --> 00:20:55,780 people who are coming in with more background, coming in with 408 00:20:55,790 --> 00:20:58,060 more experience. I mean, just look at some of the 409 00:20:58,070 --> 00:20:59,690 international lawyers we talked about, right? 410 00:20:59,700 --> 00:21:01,610 They're coming in the lawyer somewhere else. 411 00:21:01,660 --> 00:21:03,950 They're bringing a wealth of information and knowledge and 412 00:21:03,960 --> 00:21:06,210 abilities. You don't necessarily need to 413 00:21:06,220 --> 00:21:08,540 get somebody like that's the one they're five years to prove 414 00:21:08,550 --> 00:21:10,490 themselves to then get into in-house role. 415 00:21:10,560 --> 00:21:13,230 Now, if you find the right opportunity and it comes up to 416 00:21:13,240 --> 00:21:16,210 you and you know, it happens particularly, why not? 417 00:21:16,260 --> 00:21:19,100 If it comes in after your working on law firm, why not? 418 00:21:19,220 --> 00:21:21,950 It's all about where you want to end up in terms of your career, 419 00:21:21,960 --> 00:21:24,470 what your objectives are and what opportunities become 420 00:21:24,480 --> 00:21:27,030 available, right? I mean, I think like I was, you 421 00:21:27,040 --> 00:21:32,460 know, preparation and luck, luck comes in at some point and you 422 00:21:32,470 --> 00:21:35,180 just have to be able to, you know, when when somebody comes 423 00:21:35,190 --> 00:21:36,890 knocking, you gotta be able to answer the door. 424 00:21:37,820 --> 00:21:39,780 So is it the right thing for everyone? 425 00:21:39,790 --> 00:21:42,460 Maybe, maybe not. Is everyone going to have that 426 00:21:42,470 --> 00:21:43,640 opportunity? Maybe, maybe not. 427 00:21:43,650 --> 00:21:46,060 But the point is, I wouldn't necessarily discount the ability 428 00:21:46,070 --> 00:21:49,860 to go in house early on. It just means that you have to 429 00:21:49,870 --> 00:21:51,970 to understand that when you learn the law school is 430 00:21:51,980 --> 00:21:53,830 important, but it's not going to be the only thing that you're 431 00:21:53,840 --> 00:21:56,420 going to do every single thing because you're not just going to 432 00:21:56,430 --> 00:21:57,700 do law. You're gonna do a little bit 433 00:21:57,710 --> 00:21:59,940 more of everything. And if you're OK with that, I 434 00:21:59,950 --> 00:22:02,500 think it's a great opportunity. I always say you, especially as 435 00:22:02,510 --> 00:22:04,940 in-house counsel, you fly by the seat of your pants everyday. 436 00:22:05,390 --> 00:22:08,440 Oftentimes you get, you know, the whole impostor syndrome 437 00:22:08,450 --> 00:22:10,100 thing. I always see that happens all 438 00:22:10,110 --> 00:22:11,560 the time. And it's actually a good thing 439 00:22:11,570 --> 00:22:13,640 because it means you're doing things outside your zone of 440 00:22:13,650 --> 00:22:16,390 comfort means you're doing things that you're not used to 441 00:22:16,400 --> 00:22:18,750 doing and you're hurting. You're learning new skills, 442 00:22:18,760 --> 00:22:21,440 you're going to practice area and you do a lot of that. 443 00:22:21,750 --> 00:22:24,200 And I tend to find the especially in those council that 444 00:22:24,590 --> 00:22:27,620 nobody's ever going to see nobody asked to do more work or 445 00:22:27,630 --> 00:22:29,880 to help out with the particular matter to be. 446 00:22:29,950 --> 00:22:32,700 So it's all about you at that point in time. 447 00:22:32,830 --> 00:22:38,370 But the point is, the five year model, is it the only way there? 448 00:22:38,440 --> 00:22:41,120 And I'll say that as you know, legal technology comes into play 449 00:22:41,130 --> 00:22:44,030 and your AI and all these other things, there might be less and 450 00:22:44,040 --> 00:22:47,990 less need for, you know, law firms, you know, junior 451 00:22:48,340 --> 00:22:50,070 articling students and law firms. 452 00:22:50,140 --> 00:22:51,870 So you need to find another approach. 453 00:22:51,940 --> 00:22:54,780 And that in-house counsel, I think is a perfect opportunity. 454 00:22:54,910 --> 00:22:57,170 Very, very interesting. Thank you for sharing those 455 00:22:57,180 --> 00:23:00,930 videos and going for really the end of this very interesting 456 00:23:00,940 --> 00:23:03,470 conversation today. Fernando, I wanted to ask you 457 00:23:03,480 --> 00:23:08,580 also about thinking that a great portion of my audience today in 458 00:23:08,590 --> 00:23:12,290 the podcast are people who are law students graduating law 459 00:23:12,300 --> 00:23:14,630 school or really early career professionals. 460 00:23:14,740 --> 00:23:18,350 So I'd love to to know what kind of advice would you give to 461 00:23:18,420 --> 00:23:21,140 people who are finishing that up and are going into the the 462 00:23:21,150 --> 00:23:23,470 market right now on their first few years? 463 00:23:23,640 --> 00:23:26,830 What's What are some of the things that you usually tell 464 00:23:26,840 --> 00:23:28,630 people when they ask you for advice? 465 00:23:28,640 --> 00:23:32,970 The one piece of advice I was getting is how do they deal with 466 00:23:32,980 --> 00:23:37,660 you want to get to, but don't have a single approach of 467 00:23:37,670 --> 00:23:40,100 getting there because that's not how life works, right? 468 00:23:40,210 --> 00:23:42,440 There's all, you know, you always have a plan to somebody 469 00:23:42,450 --> 00:23:44,420 punches you in the face. This sort of the old saying, 470 00:23:44,430 --> 00:23:46,820 right? There's going to be lots of 471 00:23:46,830 --> 00:23:49,080 things that come up, lots of challenges and lots of 472 00:23:49,090 --> 00:23:51,800 opportunities that you have now planned for that you shouldn't 473 00:23:51,810 --> 00:23:54,790 necessarily discount. And I'll give you a good example 474 00:23:54,800 --> 00:23:57,580 of my background, right? So I, I graduated from law 475 00:23:57,590 --> 00:24:00,440 school. I did the articling at a 476 00:24:00,450 --> 00:24:03,700 boutique labour employment law firm and that early on in the 477 00:24:03,710 --> 00:24:06,560 US, some amazing firm. I got to work amazing people. 478 00:24:06,610 --> 00:24:09,020 But again, I do that. That wasn't necessary for me. 479 00:24:09,030 --> 00:24:10,720 I wanted to do more of the business side. 480 00:24:10,730 --> 00:24:13,070 I want to do more of THR more of the labour issue side. 481 00:24:13,130 --> 00:24:16,480 So I was presented with an opportunity to a six month 482 00:24:16,670 --> 00:24:20,140 labour relations consultant at one of the companies that had 483 00:24:20,150 --> 00:24:24,070 done some work with was firm. And I'm like, you know what? 484 00:24:24,120 --> 00:24:26,510 I'm not sure what I'm going to do yet, so I'm going to take. 485 00:24:27,040 --> 00:24:30,080 And so I did six months labour relations manager, well, after 486 00:24:30,090 --> 00:24:33,490 going to law school, you know, and the comments everybody said 487 00:24:33,500 --> 00:24:35,710 was why would you do that? What are you doing? 488 00:24:35,720 --> 00:24:39,030 How does that make any sense? So everybody questioned it. 489 00:24:39,070 --> 00:24:43,280 But for me it was a logical next step, or at least possible 490 00:24:43,290 --> 00:24:45,350 because look, I had that background, something that was 491 00:24:45,360 --> 00:24:47,170 an interest to me. I had worked with this client, 492 00:24:47,180 --> 00:24:50,190 had given him some advice, what worked on some stuff for them. 493 00:24:50,460 --> 00:24:54,560 So I did that for six months and when that came to an end, I went 494 00:24:54,570 --> 00:24:56,740 to another boutique labour employment offer for another 495 00:24:56,750 --> 00:24:59,270 year and a half and then the general counsel retired. 496 00:25:00,040 --> 00:25:02,390 When that general counselor retired, they were looking for 497 00:25:02,400 --> 00:25:06,820 general counsel and I said, hey, listen, I applied for no. 498 00:25:06,990 --> 00:25:09,110 Was that maybe a little bit? Maybe. 499 00:25:09,310 --> 00:25:12,580 But by that point I already knew the people, I knew the 500 00:25:12,590 --> 00:25:16,880 contracts, I knew the issues, I knew, you know, you know, the 501 00:25:16,890 --> 00:25:18,390 strategies. I knew everything that was 502 00:25:18,400 --> 00:25:20,060 happening with that firm. And I think that gave me an 503 00:25:20,070 --> 00:25:23,400 opportunity to jump into that role as a general counsel 2 504 00:25:23,410 --> 00:25:27,360 years on the law school. And then once you're in, then at 505 00:25:27,370 --> 00:25:29,250 that point you're learning everything and you have an 506 00:25:29,260 --> 00:25:31,630 opportunity to learn from, you know, incredible people from 507 00:25:31,640 --> 00:25:33,560 incredible business people and team members. 508 00:25:33,730 --> 00:25:40,110 So when I when I go back, probably 9 out of 10 times 509 00:25:40,200 --> 00:25:42,540 people would have said that's stupid idea where you going to 510 00:25:42,550 --> 00:25:45,200 go and labour relations manager role after you graduated from 511 00:25:45,210 --> 00:25:47,080 law school. What's wrong with you? 512 00:25:47,200 --> 00:25:51,240 But it became the key for me because that role, that general 513 00:25:51,250 --> 00:25:54,330 counsel role for five years that allowed me to go into Nissan, as 514 00:25:54,340 --> 00:25:57,110 you know, the general counsel for five years, amazing time, 515 00:25:57,120 --> 00:25:59,470 great experience. Then that needs experience 516 00:25:59,480 --> 00:26:02,280 allowed me to go to cargo jet and the carriage appears 517 00:26:02,290 --> 00:26:04,470 allowing me to come here. So I've been able to develop my 518 00:26:04,480 --> 00:26:08,330 career from that one opportunity that I took, which most people 519 00:26:08,400 --> 00:26:10,360 thinking rationally have been one of the that really make 520 00:26:10,370 --> 00:26:12,910 sense for you right now. But it made sense. 521 00:26:13,620 --> 00:26:17,190 It doesn't always go from AB. There's lots of little ups and 522 00:26:17,200 --> 00:26:19,850 downs and sideways and things that your career takes you that 523 00:26:19,860 --> 00:26:23,070 you're not aware for the keys always be developing yourself, 524 00:26:23,080 --> 00:26:24,910 always be developing a new skill set. 525 00:26:25,060 --> 00:26:28,150 And it's sometimes take a chance and sometimes do something that 526 00:26:28,160 --> 00:26:30,230 maybe is outside of your comfort zone. 527 00:26:30,490 --> 00:26:33,270 But you know, don't worry about what other people see. 528 00:26:33,420 --> 00:26:36,970 Make worry about what you need to do, what you think is right 529 00:26:36,980 --> 00:26:40,000 in your situation. So it's always one of those 530 00:26:40,010 --> 00:26:42,700 things where, you know, take advice, take people's insights 531 00:26:42,710 --> 00:26:45,100 and their perspectives, but yet they haven't. 532 00:26:45,110 --> 00:26:48,000 They heal what your values are, what you want to do, where your 533 00:26:48,010 --> 00:26:50,450 goals are. And as long as you're moving 534 00:26:51,640 --> 00:26:54,890 towards that direction, it might not be linear, but as long as 535 00:26:54,900 --> 00:26:57,310 you're moving forward in some sense of developing some skill 536 00:26:57,320 --> 00:26:59,230 set, that I think is always a good move. 537 00:27:00,220 --> 00:27:03,690 So you know, the world is changing, our careers changing, 538 00:27:03,740 --> 00:27:06,430 our industry changing, legal technology is changing at 539 00:27:06,440 --> 00:27:11,030 substantially and just look at chat GT, what roles are going to 540 00:27:11,040 --> 00:27:13,410 be there at 2-3 years from now? Who knows. 541 00:27:13,600 --> 00:27:16,420 The point is still do what you got to do and develop yourself 542 00:27:16,430 --> 00:27:18,390 as your skill set. And I think you can't go wrong 543 00:27:18,400 --> 00:27:19,830 regardless of what you're doing in that sense. 544 00:27:19,840 --> 00:27:20,990 Fantastic. Well, thank. 545 00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:24,060 You so very much for all the insights, all the ideas and 546 00:27:24,070 --> 00:27:26,050 especially this important piece of advice. 547 00:27:26,060 --> 00:27:30,950 You're being up to date, open and also check it out, see what 548 00:27:30,960 --> 00:27:32,720 legal technologies coming out there, right. 549 00:27:32,730 --> 00:27:35,800 We don't know what's gonna come up, but it's likely that we have 550 00:27:35,810 --> 00:27:37,950 to we'll have to interact with those. 551 00:27:37,960 --> 00:27:42,160 So there's no better generation better equipped to deal with 552 00:27:42,170 --> 00:27:45,900 that than these young lawyers coming in who are you know I 553 00:27:45,910 --> 00:27:49,560 like the term they use now like the digital natives, right. 554 00:27:49,630 --> 00:27:51,780 So you. Grew up with these tools. 555 00:27:51,790 --> 00:27:56,120 And and we should definitely use the most out of dancer and you, 556 00:27:56,130 --> 00:27:58,620 right? You go. 557 00:27:58,630 --> 00:28:00,400 There you go. I'm old enough to. 558 00:28:00,410 --> 00:28:05,480 Remember, right, what we had keyboards, right, Typewriters. 559 00:28:06,110 --> 00:28:08,460 Everybody said, oh, well, you know, the computers going to 560 00:28:08,470 --> 00:28:10,940 fundamentally change their job and it's going to destroy so 561 00:28:10,950 --> 00:28:13,800 many jobs. And it it I mean, yes, there 562 00:28:13,810 --> 00:28:16,970 were some modifications and some adjustments, but at the end of 563 00:28:16,980 --> 00:28:20,580 the day, you know, lawyers adopted computers and they made 564 00:28:20,590 --> 00:28:22,540 them that much more productive, right? 565 00:28:22,550 --> 00:28:24,490 Then the Internet came out. That's going to fundamentally 566 00:28:24,500 --> 00:28:25,930 change commerce. It's going to fundamentally 567 00:28:25,940 --> 00:28:27,100 change. It did. 568 00:28:27,430 --> 00:28:30,360 But if things continue, we still needed lawyers. 569 00:28:30,370 --> 00:28:33,020 We just needed lawyers with different skill sets, you know, 570 00:28:33,030 --> 00:28:36,190 then you came out with, you know, right now the Chateau Tees 571 00:28:36,200 --> 00:28:38,650 or the artificial intelligence. Is that going to fundamentally 572 00:28:38,660 --> 00:28:40,430 change our practice? Absolutely. 573 00:28:40,500 --> 00:28:42,610 Does that mean you're not going to have lawyers anymore? 574 00:28:42,680 --> 00:28:45,090 Not a chance. What it what it's going to mean 575 00:28:45,100 --> 00:28:47,430 is like, and I would say to people, you're not going to lose 576 00:28:47,440 --> 00:28:50,630 your job because of it, But at the same time, if you're not 577 00:28:50,640 --> 00:28:53,350 adopting the into practice, then you might lose your job. 578 00:28:53,400 --> 00:28:57,170 It's just another tool that you add to your your your tool belt 579 00:28:57,360 --> 00:29:00,150 that makes you much more valuable, that makes you much 580 00:29:00,160 --> 00:29:03,710 more effective, efficient, and it just lets you do your job 581 00:29:03,720 --> 00:29:07,280 that so you can't turn a blind eye to it and you can't be 582 00:29:07,290 --> 00:29:10,240 completely afraid of it. You should adopt it, understand 583 00:29:10,250 --> 00:29:14,400 what it does, understand its limitations and really help help 584 00:29:14,410 --> 00:29:16,480 help you. You don't make you better. 585 00:29:16,550 --> 00:29:17,680 I love that. Thank you for. 586 00:29:17,690 --> 00:29:19,640 For putting that that inside as well. 587 00:29:20,090 --> 00:29:23,010 Well, thank you all so much for tuning into today's episode. 588 00:29:23,020 --> 00:29:26,180 Thank you, Fernando, and we'll see you on the next episode. 589 00:29:26,710 --> 00:29:28,100 Thank you. All appreciate it. 590 00:29:28,590 --> 00:29:30,640 Thanks for listening and. We'll see you on the next 591 00:29:30,650 --> 00:29:33,100 episode. This episode was sponsored by 592 00:29:33,110 --> 00:29:35,980 Contender. Check them out at Contender 593 00:29:36,340 --> 00:29:37,380 lc.com.