1 00:00:12,870 --> 00:00:14,880 Welcome to Studying Law Around the World. 2 00:00:15,010 --> 00:00:17,860 I'm Claudio Claus. In each episode, I talk with 3 00:00:17,870 --> 00:00:20,840 lawyers, law students, and professors from different parts 4 00:00:20,850 --> 00:00:24,740 of the world to talk about legal education, careers, and what the 5 00:00:24,750 --> 00:00:26,420 profession looks like in real life. 6 00:00:26,430 --> 00:00:29,470 We talk about the hard parts, the surprises, and the decisions 7 00:00:29,480 --> 00:00:32,259 that shaped their paths. Whether you're planning to study 8 00:00:32,270 --> 00:00:35,520 abroad, thinking about working in another legal system, or just 9 00:00:35,530 --> 00:00:39,640 curious about how law works around the world, this podcast 10 00:00:39,650 --> 00:00:46,180 is for you. Hello, everybody. 11 00:00:46,190 --> 00:00:48,640 Welcome to another episode of Studying Law Around the World. 12 00:00:48,650 --> 00:00:52,140 Today, I have the opportunity to speak with Felicia Harris Hoss. 13 00:00:52,410 --> 00:00:57,680 She has 28 years of complex civil and commercial litigation, 14 00:00:57,730 --> 00:01:01,300 negotiation, mediation, and arbitration experience. 15 00:01:01,310 --> 00:01:04,140 She has been recognized for many years and Best Lawyers in 16 00:01:04,150 --> 00:01:07,600 America for both her commercial litigation and mediation 17 00:01:07,610 --> 00:01:10,030 practices. And I'm very happy to be hosting 18 00:01:10,040 --> 00:01:12,140 her today in the podcast. Thank you so much for making the 19 00:01:12,150 --> 00:01:15,180 time to be here for Alicia. Oh, I'm delighted to be here. 20 00:01:15,190 --> 00:01:17,950 Thanks for having me. I really appreciate it. 21 00:01:18,030 --> 00:01:21,560 And for listeners who might not know you, yeah, I I'd love for 22 00:01:21,570 --> 00:01:24,460 you to introduce yourself and share a little bit about your 23 00:01:24,470 --> 00:01:28,040 path and and your practice. Oh, absolutely. 24 00:01:28,050 --> 00:01:29,970 Well, thank you for the introduction, Claudio, very, 25 00:01:29,980 --> 00:01:33,250 very kind of you. And so I am now a full time 26 00:01:33,260 --> 00:01:35,370 independent mediator and arbitrator. 27 00:01:35,380 --> 00:01:37,490 I'm, I'm based out of Houston, TX. 28 00:01:37,500 --> 00:01:41,410 Prior to pivoting my practice out of the courtroom and into 29 00:01:41,420 --> 00:01:44,810 the conference room, I like to say I spent the 1st 2 plus 30 00:01:44,820 --> 00:01:48,230 decades of my career trying and litigating complex commercial 31 00:01:48,240 --> 00:01:51,040 disputes for publicly traded, privately held companies and 32 00:01:51,050 --> 00:01:54,110 their executives and a range of industries like energy, 33 00:01:54,120 --> 00:01:57,780 healthcare, financial services, transportation, maritime, it 34 00:01:57,790 --> 00:02:01,190 goes across the board. And in addition to that, I also 35 00:02:01,200 --> 00:02:04,610 served in the public roles, elected to one of our local city 36 00:02:04,620 --> 00:02:06,550 councils. And so I had a lot of experience 37 00:02:06,560 --> 00:02:09,690 working with construction companies and developers and 38 00:02:09,699 --> 00:02:12,390 engineers, and we called municipal utility districts, the 39 00:02:12,400 --> 00:02:15,800 development of housing complexes and those sorts of things. 40 00:02:15,810 --> 00:02:17,240 So I've had a very diverse background. 41 00:02:17,250 --> 00:02:23,000 And, and around 2020, I was pivoting, I pivoted my practice 42 00:02:23,010 --> 00:02:26,200 out of the courtroom into the conference room during the COVID 43 00:02:26,210 --> 00:02:28,320 era. Quite frankly, it was a period 44 00:02:28,330 --> 00:02:31,220 of time when I'm used to be that when someone would come into my 45 00:02:31,230 --> 00:02:34,040 office with a problem, a legal problem, we would have a 46 00:02:34,050 --> 00:02:37,740 conversation about expectations. And one of those was always the 47 00:02:37,750 --> 00:02:40,840 question presented, how long to wait till we get to trial? 48 00:02:40,850 --> 00:02:43,210 How long until we get a resolution, how long until we 49 00:02:43,220 --> 00:02:47,020 get in front of a jury? And that typically was responded 50 00:02:47,090 --> 00:02:49,470 by with this, you know, maybe a year or year and a half, we'll 51 00:02:49,480 --> 00:02:53,240 get our first trial setting. We might have to get that bump 52 00:02:53,430 --> 00:02:56,400 because, you know, we in Texas to a system whereby and there 53 00:02:56,410 --> 00:02:58,350 will be many cases set for trial on the same day. 54 00:02:58,360 --> 00:03:00,650 So maybe in a couple years we'll get to the courthouse on the 55 00:03:00,660 --> 00:03:04,310 during the COVID era when the courts essentially shut down for 56 00:03:04,320 --> 00:03:08,990 a period of time and cases and and backlogs grew, that pivoted 57 00:03:09,000 --> 00:03:12,650 to about three to five years for your first trial setting and 58 00:03:12,660 --> 00:03:15,030 sometimes even longer. And if you didn't get refund 59 00:03:15,040 --> 00:03:17,830 your first trial setting, then you certainly were going to be 60 00:03:17,840 --> 00:03:19,590 in the system for a lot longer period of time. 61 00:03:19,600 --> 00:03:22,970 And all that obviously amounts to a lot of money, a lot of 62 00:03:22,980 --> 00:03:26,210 stress, a lot of uncertainty, broken relationships and a lot 63 00:03:26,220 --> 00:03:28,290 of things that people don't want in their life. 64 00:03:28,300 --> 00:03:31,630 And so I felt like having worked with some really tremendous 65 00:03:31,640 --> 00:03:36,360 mediators as an advocate, that I'd like to take my experience 66 00:03:36,460 --> 00:03:40,830 and push it to the neutrals arena and see if I might be more 67 00:03:40,840 --> 00:03:43,660 effective in helping party resolve their conflicts there. 68 00:03:44,050 --> 00:03:47,220 Very, very interesting. I don't think I had heard the, 69 00:03:47,290 --> 00:03:51,370 the term neutrals before. So I'd love for you to tell us a 70 00:03:51,380 --> 00:03:54,710 little bit more about, you know, this ecosystem of, of 71 00:03:54,720 --> 00:03:57,250 arbitration, mediation, of being a neutral. 72 00:03:57,260 --> 00:04:00,050 I understand that you've took all these years in your career 73 00:04:00,060 --> 00:04:03,850 preparing for trial, even though not every case got there. 74 00:04:04,140 --> 00:04:07,130 And, and I wanted to hear a little more about, you know, how 75 00:04:07,440 --> 00:04:09,900 early dispute resolution really played a role. 76 00:04:10,580 --> 00:04:14,210 Great question. Well, a neutral, So what I 77 00:04:14,500 --> 00:04:17,890 represented clients in the courthouse or in an arbitration, 78 00:04:17,899 --> 00:04:21,060 you know, as an advocate, I took a position, I advocated for 79 00:04:21,070 --> 00:04:23,710 their success, for their win, whatever that might be. 80 00:04:23,720 --> 00:04:27,230 In her role as a neutral, as a mediator, for example, I use 81 00:04:27,240 --> 00:04:30,010 that first. You know, my job is to listen 82 00:04:30,020 --> 00:04:33,170 very closely and help the parties understand their 83 00:04:33,180 --> 00:04:36,990 conflict as best they can and to help them negotiate a 84 00:04:37,000 --> 00:04:39,750 resolution. In that role, although I am a 85 00:04:39,760 --> 00:04:42,190 lawyer, I don't, I'm not a lawyer in that role. 86 00:04:42,240 --> 00:04:45,850 My role is really as a facilitator and I don't have any 87 00:04:45,900 --> 00:04:49,570 control over the outcome. My, my sole mission as a 88 00:04:49,580 --> 00:04:52,750 mediator is to stay neutral, to stay impartial, to stay 89 00:04:52,760 --> 00:04:56,130 independent, to help the parties think through their own 90 00:04:56,140 --> 00:05:00,190 resolution and to have what we call party autonomy, control 91 00:05:00,200 --> 00:05:02,650 over how the, the dispute resolves. 92 00:05:02,720 --> 00:05:05,570 In fact, I, in my opening presentations to parties, 93 00:05:05,580 --> 00:05:08,170 especially those who have never been through mediation, I 94 00:05:08,180 --> 00:05:11,030 highlight what I call the 4C's of mediation, which is 95 00:05:11,040 --> 00:05:13,470 confidentiality, something you don't get at the courthouse 96 00:05:13,480 --> 00:05:15,750 control something else you don't get at the courthouse. 97 00:05:15,760 --> 00:05:18,320 I'd like to summarize or analogize that this way. 98 00:05:18,330 --> 00:05:21,090 You know, with the courthouse, the judge or the jury are in 99 00:05:21,100 --> 00:05:22,960 control. They get to make a lot of 100 00:05:22,970 --> 00:05:26,220 decisions about some very important matters that are going 101 00:05:26,230 --> 00:05:29,160 to impact you and not them, but they are in complete control of 102 00:05:29,170 --> 00:05:32,210 the courthouse. Here in this mediation process, 103 00:05:32,380 --> 00:05:34,560 the parties are in control. They get to make all of the 104 00:05:34,570 --> 00:05:36,550 decisions. And if they decide to resolve 105 00:05:36,560 --> 00:05:39,920 the cake on terms that are appropriate for that, that's 106 00:05:39,930 --> 00:05:41,850 their call. If they choose not to resolve 107 00:05:41,860 --> 00:05:44,810 the case on free to them that too. 108 00:05:44,940 --> 00:05:48,370 And if the case doesn't get resolved and the constantly 109 00:05:48,380 --> 00:05:50,610 trying that out to some strangers, can you hear that in 110 00:05:50,620 --> 00:05:52,370 the back? Can you hear the? 111 00:05:52,600 --> 00:05:53,850 Can you hear anything in the background? 112 00:05:55,320 --> 00:05:59,110 Out the noise, but it it did blend your voice a little bit, 113 00:05:59,190 --> 00:06:01,980 but I think it was good enough where we could understand 114 00:06:01,990 --> 00:06:04,790 everything you just said. So now where it's like cut, cut 115 00:06:04,800 --> 00:06:07,490 the. Alright, so let me finish what I 116 00:06:07,500 --> 00:06:08,670 was saying about the neutral thing. 117 00:06:08,680 --> 00:06:12,870 So when when parties are in, in mediation, addition, in addition 118 00:06:12,880 --> 00:06:16,130 to having control over the outcome, right, they also have 119 00:06:16,200 --> 00:06:19,250 creative outcomes that they wouldn't have at the courthouse. 120 00:06:19,520 --> 00:06:22,990 So this is the third C right? At the courthouse, the judge or 121 00:06:23,000 --> 00:06:26,730 even an arbitrator, they are very limited in what kind of 122 00:06:26,740 --> 00:06:29,960 remedies they can apply to the law and the facts of the case, 123 00:06:29,970 --> 00:06:32,570 right? Most of the time it's money. 124 00:06:32,620 --> 00:06:35,770 Most of the time a party wants to either be paid money or not 125 00:06:35,780 --> 00:06:37,900 to pay money. But sometimes it's injunctive 126 00:06:37,910 --> 00:06:41,690 relief or it's a declaration or things of those of those sorts. 127 00:06:42,180 --> 00:06:46,750 In mediation, a lot of times the resolution pivots and gets done 128 00:06:47,160 --> 00:06:49,370 on something completely unrelated to money. 129 00:06:49,460 --> 00:06:51,540 And of course, the mediator can't make a declaration. 130 00:06:51,550 --> 00:06:56,440 It turns on a business deal being modified or a payment plan 131 00:06:56,450 --> 00:07:01,540 being available or an apology being given from one partner to 132 00:07:01,610 --> 00:07:05,740 another partner or things that are not intuitive to the court 133 00:07:05,750 --> 00:07:08,330 system, the things that are important to the parties. 134 00:07:08,340 --> 00:07:12,300 And so that creative aspect makes mediation something very 135 00:07:12,310 --> 00:07:14,480 helpful and something that a neutral can provide because a 136 00:07:14,490 --> 00:07:17,480 neutral can sometimes help you think up those things after you 137 00:07:17,490 --> 00:07:20,140 spent time with your lawyer talking about what are my 138 00:07:20,150 --> 00:07:22,260 chances of the courthouse neutral might go? 139 00:07:22,270 --> 00:07:24,220 Besides what you can at the courthouse, what else is 140 00:07:24,230 --> 00:07:26,820 important to you? Why are we in this conflict this 141 00:07:26,830 --> 00:07:28,600 long? What do we need to resolve? 142 00:07:28,670 --> 00:07:30,340 And then last is certainty right? 143 00:07:30,690 --> 00:07:34,820 Even if you win a trial, we all know there's always the chance 144 00:07:34,830 --> 00:07:37,050 for appeal. And so even if you were in 145 00:07:37,060 --> 00:07:40,550 trial, you could still, at least in our system in Texas, spend 146 00:07:40,560 --> 00:07:43,410 another two or three years waiting for the outcome to be 147 00:07:43,420 --> 00:07:46,050 resolved. And so add that on to the 148 00:07:46,120 --> 00:07:50,070 extended period of time already and being a neutral going to to 149 00:07:50,080 --> 00:07:53,250 mediation, working with someone to help you stay in control 150 00:07:53,320 --> 00:07:56,490 really provides value that you can't get anywhere else. 151 00:07:56,500 --> 00:08:00,330 And so an arbitration for those who may not be familiar with 152 00:08:00,340 --> 00:08:04,080 arbitration is is essentially serving like a private judge. 153 00:08:04,090 --> 00:08:06,410 I'm an arbitrator and a case between parties. 154 00:08:06,420 --> 00:08:10,000 A very similar but very truncated in most instances try 155 00:08:10,010 --> 00:08:12,140 to be cost effective process is applied. 156 00:08:12,150 --> 00:08:16,250 The parties have more control over the kind of information 157 00:08:16,260 --> 00:08:19,840 exchanges they're going to have. They don't go to the default of 158 00:08:19,990 --> 00:08:22,360 the Rules of Civil Procedure at the federal level or at the 159 00:08:22,370 --> 00:08:24,240 state level or wherever they are. 160 00:08:24,310 --> 00:08:26,600 They have the ability to shape that with the help of the 161 00:08:26,610 --> 00:08:30,160 arbitrator and then have a full hearing with testimony and an 162 00:08:30,170 --> 00:08:33,059 award issued, which then can be confirmed and turned into a 163 00:08:33,070 --> 00:08:37,070 judgment under which the parties can take to the courthouse and 164 00:08:37,080 --> 00:08:39,460 then in Texas to the sheriff to have executing upon. 165 00:08:40,110 --> 00:08:43,380 Very, very interesting and, and very interesting as a, as a 166 00:08:43,390 --> 00:08:47,080 career path as well as we as we go through the podcast today, I 167 00:08:47,090 --> 00:08:48,780 will ask a few more questions on that. 168 00:08:48,830 --> 00:08:53,260 I also wanted you to ask a little more on the topic of how 169 00:08:53,270 --> 00:08:57,060 this plays a role and what early resolution means. 170 00:08:57,070 --> 00:09:01,160 I've read that you played the role in working behind the ABA 171 00:09:01,170 --> 00:09:04,720 resolution 500, which has to do with, with the profession 172 00:09:04,730 --> 00:09:06,830 formally supporting early mediation. 173 00:09:07,030 --> 00:09:10,400 And I wanted to ask you a little more about this process. 174 00:09:10,410 --> 00:09:14,000 I about, you know, the importance of early mediation as 175 00:09:14,010 --> 00:09:16,980 well. I think I understand that the US 176 00:09:16,990 --> 00:09:20,850 and I believe that Canada is not too different in that sense, is 177 00:09:20,860 --> 00:09:25,150 looking into going for early mediations or, or looking into, 178 00:09:25,400 --> 00:09:28,890 you know, looking at these possibilities before really 179 00:09:29,140 --> 00:09:32,370 going into the court system and and having all the problems that 180 00:09:32,380 --> 00:09:36,270 you just outlined. Well, yes, the American Bar 181 00:09:36,280 --> 00:09:40,400 Association just to set the stage for kind of what happened 182 00:09:40,410 --> 00:09:45,450 in February of 2024. I was a part of the team at was 183 00:09:45,460 --> 00:09:48,450 the American Bar Association section of dispute resolution. 184 00:09:48,460 --> 00:09:51,030 I was Co chair of the early dispute resolution committee at 185 00:09:51,040 --> 00:09:54,220 the time. We went and made a presentation 186 00:09:54,230 --> 00:09:57,290 to the House of delegates if they're mid year meeting and 187 00:09:57,300 --> 00:10:01,930 resolution 500, which was resolution for early mediation 188 00:10:02,040 --> 00:10:05,410 and it reads resolved that the American Bar Association urges 189 00:10:05,420 --> 00:10:09,630 lawyers and all interested parties to increase the informed 190 00:10:09,640 --> 00:10:12,790 and voluntary use of early dispute resolution, which is 191 00:10:12,800 --> 00:10:17,230 party directed non adjudicative approaches to resolve disputes 192 00:10:17,240 --> 00:10:19,570 in a time efficient and cost effective manner. 193 00:10:19,620 --> 00:10:22,130 And that includes, but it doesn't limit itself to direct 194 00:10:22,140 --> 00:10:25,530 negotiation, mediation, ombuds work and so on. 195 00:10:25,740 --> 00:10:30,340 And so this resolution, those spearheaded by myself and my 196 00:10:30,350 --> 00:10:35,540 colleagues on the EDR committee and supported Co sponsored by 197 00:10:35,550 --> 00:10:38,780 two other sections of the American Bar Association, the 198 00:10:38,790 --> 00:10:41,220 Section of State and Local Government and the Senior 199 00:10:41,230 --> 00:10:43,730 Lawyers Division. In addition to that, it was 200 00:10:43,740 --> 00:10:48,360 supported by the ABA Business Law Section, the ABA Section of 201 00:10:48,370 --> 00:10:52,030 Labour and Employment Law, the ABA Young Lawyers Division and 202 00:10:52,040 --> 00:10:55,140 Division that your colleagues may be very interested in, and 203 00:10:55,150 --> 00:10:58,560 the ABA Section of Government and Public Sectors Lawyers. 204 00:10:58,570 --> 00:11:03,380 And the process for getting the resolution to the House was 205 00:11:03,390 --> 00:11:07,540 about a two year process whereby we had to write a report and 206 00:11:07,550 --> 00:11:11,610 present the report to our section and have it approved and 207 00:11:11,900 --> 00:11:14,710 supported. And then we we went to other 208 00:11:14,720 --> 00:11:17,140 sections like the sections I just listed and talked with 209 00:11:17,150 --> 00:11:19,310 their leadership, presented it to them. 210 00:11:19,400 --> 00:11:23,230 And that feedback, took that feedback in, modified to report, 211 00:11:23,240 --> 00:11:26,970 modified the language of their resolution work collaboratively 212 00:11:26,980 --> 00:11:30,630 with other sections of the American Bar Association to 213 00:11:30,640 --> 00:11:32,070 present it to the House of Delegates. 214 00:11:32,080 --> 00:11:34,650 And part of your question is, is, you know, what's, what's the 215 00:11:34,660 --> 00:11:37,150 significance of that? The significance of that is 216 00:11:37,160 --> 00:11:41,060 this, the American Bar Association has obviously 217 00:11:41,070 --> 00:11:44,430 membership across the country and even in Canada, there it is. 218 00:11:44,440 --> 00:11:47,860 Now when they adopt A resolution like this, it becomes the policy 219 00:11:47,870 --> 00:11:51,240 of the American Bar Association. So the American Bar Association 220 00:11:51,250 --> 00:11:56,060 now has a policy of encouraging lawyers to increase their use of 221 00:11:56,070 --> 00:11:58,280 informed and voluntary early dispute resolution. 222 00:11:58,330 --> 00:12:01,860 In other words, think about putting your clients in a 223 00:12:01,870 --> 00:12:05,910 position to take advantage of those 4C's earlier in the life 224 00:12:05,920 --> 00:12:08,360 cycle of a lawsuit. And this is significant in the 225 00:12:08,370 --> 00:12:13,890 sense that for years and years and years, a lot of ports were 226 00:12:13,900 --> 00:12:17,530 having to order parties to go to mediation, but they wouldn't go 227 00:12:17,540 --> 00:12:21,680 voluntarily, right? And who knows why that is, but 228 00:12:21,690 --> 00:12:25,890 there are lots of seal clear articles and journal articles 229 00:12:25,940 --> 00:12:30,280 that have studies behind them that suggest that a lot of the 230 00:12:30,290 --> 00:12:37,070 decision about when and if and where to go to mediation is made 231 00:12:37,130 --> 00:12:40,350 or based upon the advice that lawyers provide to their 232 00:12:40,360 --> 00:12:42,490 clients, the advocates provide to their clients. 233 00:12:42,720 --> 00:12:48,610 And so the part of the value I believe in the resolution is it 234 00:12:48,620 --> 00:12:52,590 sort of says it's OK lawyers to go to mediation early. 235 00:12:52,600 --> 00:12:54,910 In fact, we urge it. And there are a lot of good 236 00:12:54,920 --> 00:12:59,010 reasons for it or are essentially 3 objections to it, 237 00:12:59,020 --> 00:13:01,520 which I'm happy to just briefly talk about if you'd like. 238 00:13:01,530 --> 00:13:04,670 But a lot of good reasons for it is it helps the courts manage 239 00:13:04,680 --> 00:13:07,440 their documents better. It helps party stay in control 240 00:13:07,610 --> 00:13:12,580 and it by those two things being byproducts of it, it allows the 241 00:13:12,590 --> 00:13:17,840 courts to not have to address a lot of cases hopefully, and that 242 00:13:17,850 --> 00:13:20,880 clears the docket so that more cases can be tried in the 243 00:13:20,890 --> 00:13:24,260 future. We know that about 1% or less of 244 00:13:24,270 --> 00:13:27,110 all cases that are ever filed at the courthouse going to trial. 245 00:13:28,160 --> 00:13:31,150 So, you know, we know some get resolved through dispositive 246 00:13:31,160 --> 00:13:34,080 motions, but most of the cases that go to the courthouse are 247 00:13:34,090 --> 00:13:36,070 going to resolve through some sort of a settlement, whether 248 00:13:36,080 --> 00:13:37,970 it's direct negotiation or mediation. 249 00:13:37,980 --> 00:13:41,990 And so, you know, spending the time and the resources, that 250 00:13:42,000 --> 00:13:46,570 money to go through a discovery process to turn over every stone 251 00:13:46,620 --> 00:13:50,410 for a trial, which may never happen seems a little bit 252 00:13:50,480 --> 00:13:52,420 backwards. It seems like you would want to 253 00:13:52,430 --> 00:13:56,370 find out as much about the case early on and open the dialogue 254 00:13:56,420 --> 00:13:58,620 to see if you might be able to resolve it before those 255 00:13:58,630 --> 00:14:02,070 resources, those emotions that time is is invested. 256 00:14:02,080 --> 00:14:05,120 And So what this does, this resolution is, is sort of says, 257 00:14:05,130 --> 00:14:07,690 you know, it's not, it's not a novelty anymore. 258 00:14:07,700 --> 00:14:09,410 This is something we should be thinking about. 259 00:14:09,420 --> 00:14:11,470 And I was thrilled to be a part of it. 260 00:14:12,170 --> 00:14:15,410 Fantastic. I love that you brought right in 261 00:14:15,420 --> 00:14:17,860 the beginning of a very interesting subject, bringing up 262 00:14:17,870 --> 00:14:22,130 how carrying on litigation for a long time really can, can be 263 00:14:22,200 --> 00:14:25,620 detrimental for a lot of things. But, but I, I really enjoyed 264 00:14:25,630 --> 00:14:28,550 that you mentioned it specifically relationships. 265 00:14:28,560 --> 00:14:31,870 And thinking about that. I, I think that one of the 266 00:14:31,880 --> 00:14:34,910 points that I have read on your website and, and all of that 267 00:14:35,020 --> 00:14:37,980 talked a little bit about employment disputes, how much 268 00:14:37,990 --> 00:14:40,690 those can affect, you know, morale, trust, reputation, and 269 00:14:40,700 --> 00:14:43,390 all of that. And, and I'm curious to hear a 270 00:14:43,400 --> 00:14:46,170 little bit about, you know, how does that work in that setting 271 00:14:46,180 --> 00:14:50,850 and help to, you know, in a way protect the, the workplace 272 00:14:50,860 --> 00:14:53,480 culture, trust and, and relationships after all. 273 00:14:54,550 --> 00:14:58,460 Now, and employment disputes are very unique in the sense that, 274 00:14:58,510 --> 00:15:01,540 you know, our relationships to our careers sometimes define who 275 00:15:01,550 --> 00:15:04,320 we are rightfully, wrongfully or indifferently. 276 00:15:04,570 --> 00:15:07,760 And so people who are involved in employment disputes, they, 277 00:15:07,770 --> 00:15:09,850 they, they're not looking for conflict. 278 00:15:09,860 --> 00:15:11,700 They really want resolution, right? 279 00:15:11,710 --> 00:15:16,280 And from the employees perspective, the, the dispute is 280 00:15:16,290 --> 00:15:19,940 really usually over relationships, right? 281 00:15:19,950 --> 00:15:23,200 I've been discriminated against, I've been harassed or whatever, 282 00:15:23,210 --> 00:15:26,080 or, or even been injured on the job, right? 283 00:15:26,310 --> 00:15:31,890 And it's that relationship about that drives the conflict in most 284 00:15:31,900 --> 00:15:35,240 instances. And so from their perspective, 285 00:15:35,430 --> 00:15:39,820 if you had to wait two or three or four or five years to go all 286 00:15:39,830 --> 00:15:42,650 the way through a court system before you got your day in 287 00:15:42,660 --> 00:15:45,310 court, which you do, if you go through the litigation process, 288 00:15:45,320 --> 00:15:48,340 in most instances, you know, you've already moved on to 289 00:15:48,350 --> 00:15:50,400 another job. You may have already moved on to 290 00:15:50,410 --> 00:15:53,550 another career, or you may have moved out of the state. 291 00:15:53,560 --> 00:15:56,270 You know, there's a lot of decisions that are going to be 292 00:15:56,280 --> 00:16:01,010 made in that time period that impact your career that might be 293 00:16:01,060 --> 00:16:04,410 paused or affected by a prolonged dispute. 294 00:16:04,460 --> 00:16:07,750 And so from the employees perspective, an early mediation 295 00:16:07,760 --> 00:16:11,500 provides them an opportunity to have their day in court, so to 296 00:16:11,510 --> 00:16:14,750 speak, right? You, you have the opportunity to 297 00:16:14,760 --> 00:16:18,950 speak confidentially to a neutral and to the other side 298 00:16:19,000 --> 00:16:23,820 and say, This is why I'm upset. This is what I think from my 299 00:16:23,830 --> 00:16:27,720 perspective, you did wrong and this is what I hope to achieve 300 00:16:27,730 --> 00:16:29,660 through the process of resolution. 301 00:16:29,730 --> 00:16:33,820 From the employers perspective, an early mediation gives them a 302 00:16:33,830 --> 00:16:38,940 chance to set a culture that we we really value all of our 303 00:16:38,950 --> 00:16:42,600 employees. And if we have made a mistake or 304 00:16:42,610 --> 00:16:45,840 if there is something that we could improve upon, this is our 305 00:16:45,850 --> 00:16:50,120 opportunity to do it. And so the timing allows the 306 00:16:50,130 --> 00:16:55,600 employer to potentially fix something before it gets perhaps 307 00:16:55,610 --> 00:17:00,100 broken more or misunderstood by the other employees who see this 308 00:17:00,110 --> 00:17:03,100 going on and are wondering, what are they doing there with Jim 309 00:17:03,110 --> 00:17:06,650 Bob, right, or Sally Sue? How are they treating them in 310 00:17:06,660 --> 00:17:09,760 this relationship? So it helps the employer, you 311 00:17:09,770 --> 00:17:11,599 know, improve upon their own workforce. 312 00:17:11,609 --> 00:17:14,819 And in many instances, and that's just one example, because 313 00:17:14,829 --> 00:17:18,960 we know that there are class action employment disputes too. 314 00:17:18,970 --> 00:17:22,579 And, and those are a different animal to speak about. 315 00:17:22,730 --> 00:17:26,420 But let's just say this, you know, employees know they have 316 00:17:26,430 --> 00:17:29,380 friends that they work with. And if they end up suing the 317 00:17:29,390 --> 00:17:31,950 company or they end up feeling they've been wrong, they're 318 00:17:31,960 --> 00:17:35,260 going to talk to their friends. And so if you can help build A 319 00:17:35,270 --> 00:17:39,220 level of trust behind that, that's that's very beneficial to 320 00:17:39,230 --> 00:17:41,020 both the employer and the employee. 321 00:17:42,520 --> 00:17:45,630 So, yeah, I think employment law is one of those areas of law 322 00:17:45,640 --> 00:17:49,640 where almost any case, there are some exceptions, but almost 323 00:17:49,650 --> 00:17:53,700 every case in early dialogue with a neutral, in a 324 00:17:53,710 --> 00:17:57,640 confidential setting in which everyone is able to be heard and 325 00:17:57,650 --> 00:18:01,840 is tremendously valuable. And there are many cases, I have 326 00:18:01,850 --> 00:18:06,040 to say, when an early mediation is not going to be useful. 327 00:18:06,050 --> 00:18:09,830 And in those instances, you know, you don't want to spend 328 00:18:09,840 --> 00:18:12,260 the time and resources. And it may be that, you know, 329 00:18:12,270 --> 00:18:15,470 it's a case that the company just needs a legal decision on 330 00:18:15,480 --> 00:18:18,720 because it's something that in the marketplace, it's unsettled 331 00:18:18,730 --> 00:18:21,080 and the marketplace needs to be clear on it. 332 00:18:21,090 --> 00:18:24,300 Most cases are not that. And so you know you have to 333 00:18:24,350 --> 00:18:26,980 choose which path is best for your client. 334 00:18:27,450 --> 00:18:30,730 Very, very interesting. I appreciate that you brought up 335 00:18:30,740 --> 00:18:35,050 this point of having to see what is best for the client and all 336 00:18:35,060 --> 00:18:37,530 of that. And something that as I was 337 00:18:37,540 --> 00:18:40,710 preparing for the podcast today, I was thinking about, you know, 338 00:18:40,790 --> 00:18:44,890 the, the litigation strategies and, and also principled 339 00:18:44,900 --> 00:18:47,390 negotiation and all these different points that that 340 00:18:47,400 --> 00:18:50,900 correlate. And I can imagine that some 341 00:18:50,910 --> 00:18:54,960 lawyers might worry that moving too early can also mean losing 342 00:18:54,970 --> 00:18:57,400 leverage. So it's interesting. 343 00:18:57,410 --> 00:19:00,700 So there is some circumstances where where, you know, an early 344 00:19:00,710 --> 00:19:04,170 structure could actually help, but but some other ones where 345 00:19:04,180 --> 00:19:07,580 that might be detriment, detrimental to the to the cause 346 00:19:07,590 --> 00:19:09,940 or to, you know, the decision making that's going on. 347 00:19:10,150 --> 00:19:13,100 So I find that very, very interesting. 348 00:19:13,150 --> 00:19:16,900 As we go towards the end of today's episode, Felicia, some 349 00:19:16,910 --> 00:19:20,100 of my audience here really is early career professionals. 350 00:19:20,330 --> 00:19:23,860 I love that the podcast also gives me an opportunity to ask 351 00:19:23,870 --> 00:19:28,440 people what like what wonderful roles you can create and, and 352 00:19:28,450 --> 00:19:31,360 what a career you can make. We have a law degree. 353 00:19:31,370 --> 00:19:35,000 We spoke briefly before about, you know, how being a mediator 354 00:19:35,070 --> 00:19:38,160 is something that often is pursued by more senior 355 00:19:38,170 --> 00:19:41,050 professionals because really you have that experience. 356 00:19:41,060 --> 00:19:44,390 You have, you know, seeing all the points throughout different 357 00:19:44,400 --> 00:19:47,470 lenses and all of that. But I'd love for you to to tell 358 00:19:47,480 --> 00:19:50,550 us a little more about, you know, maybe young lawyers, if 359 00:19:50,560 --> 00:19:54,000 you want to become a mediator, this is something that you might 360 00:19:54,010 --> 00:19:56,980 want to do. Or also lawyers, maybe you want 361 00:19:56,990 --> 00:20:01,770 to explore using a mediator soon in your career as well to serve 362 00:20:01,780 --> 00:20:03,660 your clients better. So I'd love to hear your 363 00:20:03,670 --> 00:20:06,510 thoughts on that. I love this question. 364 00:20:06,520 --> 00:20:09,240 You know, when I first started my career, I was clerking for 365 00:20:09,870 --> 00:20:12,830 Chief Justice Casey at the 2nd Court of Appeals in Fort Worth. 366 00:20:12,840 --> 00:20:15,700 And at that point in my career, I really wanted to be an 367 00:20:15,710 --> 00:20:18,020 appellate lawyer. I really wanted to be someone 368 00:20:18,030 --> 00:20:20,550 who, who drafted briefs and made arguments to the appellate 369 00:20:20,560 --> 00:20:23,220 courts. And he told me in, in that first 370 00:20:23,230 --> 00:20:26,380 year as a, as a licensed lawyer, that to be a really good 371 00:20:26,390 --> 00:20:29,800 appellate lawyer to help review the, the work of trial lawyers, 372 00:20:29,810 --> 00:20:31,400 you need to 1st be a trial lawyer. 373 00:20:31,930 --> 00:20:35,240 And so get in the trenches, learn what it takes, think about 374 00:20:35,250 --> 00:20:37,880 the, the case and the decisions that are being made in real 375 00:20:37,890 --> 00:20:40,140 time, and that'll make you a great appellate lawyer. 376 00:20:40,150 --> 00:20:43,420 And so I did. I went to a boutique law firm in 377 00:20:43,430 --> 00:20:45,820 Houston and, and worked with some of the best trial lawyers 378 00:20:45,830 --> 00:20:49,410 in our country and we tried cases, a lot of them, and we 379 00:20:49,420 --> 00:20:53,090 mock tried cases and we worked with some of the best companies 380 00:20:53,100 --> 00:20:57,520 in, in the country. And so through my career, you 381 00:20:57,530 --> 00:20:59,730 know, I became a partner in national law firm. 382 00:20:59,740 --> 00:21:03,830 And, um, actually several national law firms are in the 383 00:21:03,840 --> 00:21:06,570 Houston area. And so I think the best advice I 384 00:21:06,580 --> 00:21:09,110 can give someone who is interested in becoming a neutral 385 00:21:09,460 --> 00:21:12,050 is the same advice that I received as a young lawyer, 386 00:21:12,060 --> 00:21:15,960 which is first, you know, learn the craft of that which you want 387 00:21:15,970 --> 00:21:20,530 to help advise upon, help facilitate and negotiation on. 388 00:21:20,740 --> 00:21:24,690 Because that's going to give you the street cred, the ability to 389 00:21:24,700 --> 00:21:27,190 speak with authority, the ability to speak with clarity, 390 00:21:27,200 --> 00:21:31,030 the ability to speak with persuasion when the other side 391 00:21:31,040 --> 00:21:33,690 or whatever needs to hear another voice in the 392 00:21:33,700 --> 00:21:35,710 conversation. So that's the first piece of 393 00:21:35,720 --> 00:21:38,290 advice I'd give us. Do the work first and then see 394 00:21:38,300 --> 00:21:41,940 the opportunity to help others resolve their problems. 395 00:21:42,010 --> 00:21:46,040 But the other thing I would also find, you know, I wish I had 396 00:21:46,050 --> 00:21:48,800 known sooner. And that is the role of in-house 397 00:21:48,810 --> 00:21:52,580 counsel and how they interact with their clients internally. 398 00:21:53,130 --> 00:21:58,240 I always tried to give as a outside counsel, I've tried to 399 00:21:58,250 --> 00:22:01,540 go the extra mile, right? Try to give better value, better 400 00:22:01,550 --> 00:22:03,920 service. And it's very competitive in in 401 00:22:03,930 --> 00:22:06,110 and of itself. But that was always my mantra. 402 00:22:06,120 --> 00:22:09,560 And I always remember that, you know, we as lawyers need to 403 00:22:09,570 --> 00:22:11,820 always focus on the fundamentals, whether it's in 404 00:22:11,830 --> 00:22:16,880 the trial or in an arbitration or in a meeting with a client, 405 00:22:16,890 --> 00:22:19,880 focus on the fundamentals. What is most important in that 406 00:22:19,890 --> 00:22:22,840 moment and for us. And The thing is, is that they 407 00:22:22,850 --> 00:22:26,640 want resolution and that the last case I tried was a week and 408 00:22:26,650 --> 00:22:31,210 a half long federal case. And we what we won the trial was 409 00:22:31,220 --> 00:22:35,520 a hard fought battle, good firms on both sides and we were very, 410 00:22:35,530 --> 00:22:38,590 very happy with the outcome. A year later, Fast forward, I'm 411 00:22:38,600 --> 00:22:40,930 in my office. I have completely forgotten 412 00:22:40,940 --> 00:22:43,870 about that case. And a huge bouquet of flowers is 413 00:22:43,880 --> 00:22:46,420 delivered. And my secretary says to me, you 414 00:22:46,430 --> 00:22:47,730 won't believe who these are from. 415 00:22:47,980 --> 00:22:51,390 And I read the card and it was from a very young and up and 416 00:22:51,400 --> 00:22:54,910 coming energy executive who's one of my clients in that trial. 417 00:22:55,080 --> 00:22:57,910 And the card read something along the lines of a year ago 418 00:22:57,920 --> 00:22:59,640 today, you saved my career. Thank you. 419 00:23:00,480 --> 00:23:05,060 And that really impressed upon me something that for, you know, 420 00:23:05,070 --> 00:23:07,420 years and years and years I've been doing naturally and that 421 00:23:07,430 --> 00:23:10,360 was helping them out. But he really impressed me at 1 422 00:23:10,370 --> 00:23:14,640 moment that this experience that he had with me as a lawyer in a 423 00:23:14,650 --> 00:23:18,210 courtroom was super impactful. So much so that he remembered 424 00:23:18,220 --> 00:23:20,520 the anniversary of the day the jury came back with a verdict. 425 00:23:20,670 --> 00:23:24,740 And so that's something that you don't get from being, you don't 426 00:23:24,750 --> 00:23:28,240 necessarily appreciate younger in your younger years, you get 427 00:23:28,250 --> 00:23:31,480 it in your older years. And so one thing I like to share 428 00:23:31,610 --> 00:23:34,750 with lawyers is to always remember our deliverable, 429 00:23:34,760 --> 00:23:39,150 whether you are on the bench in an arbitration, in an advocate's 430 00:23:39,160 --> 00:23:41,940 role or in a neutral's role are deliverables resolution. 431 00:23:42,210 --> 00:23:46,920 And so the more effectively cost efficiently time efficiently, 432 00:23:47,010 --> 00:23:50,220 the way we can do that, the better value we're providing to 433 00:23:50,230 --> 00:23:52,260 our clients. Amazing. 434 00:23:52,270 --> 00:23:55,600 I really appreciate you taking the time to come in the podcast, 435 00:23:55,610 --> 00:23:58,480 share a little bit about your career and insights, and thank 436 00:23:58,490 --> 00:24:00,780 you all for tuning in and listening to today's episode.