1 00:00:12,880 --> 00:00:14,890 Welcome to studying law around the world. 2 00:00:15,020 --> 00:00:17,870 I'm Claudio Claus. In each episode, I talk with 3 00:00:17,880 --> 00:00:20,850 lawyers, law students, and professors from different parts 4 00:00:20,860 --> 00:00:24,730 of the world to talk about legal education, careers, and what the 5 00:00:24,740 --> 00:00:26,410 profession looks like in real life. 6 00:00:26,420 --> 00:00:29,470 We talk about the hard parts, the surprises, and the decisions 7 00:00:29,480 --> 00:00:32,030 that shaped their paths. Whether you're planning to 8 00:00:32,040 --> 00:00:32,790 study. Abroad. 9 00:00:32,880 --> 00:00:35,520 Thinking about working in another legal system or just 10 00:00:35,530 --> 00:00:38,470 curious about how law works around the world? 11 00:00:38,720 --> 00:00:44,350 This podcast is for you. So many of the guests on this 12 00:00:44,360 --> 00:00:47,650 podcast have talked about how important it is to have strong 13 00:00:47,660 --> 00:00:51,290 writing skills as a lawyer. It's true, written communication 14 00:00:51,340 --> 00:00:55,170 is essential in this profession, but it can also be one of the 15 00:00:55,180 --> 00:00:58,510 trickiest skills to master. If you find your writing feels a 16 00:00:58,520 --> 00:01:01,400 bit clunky, or you're getting a lot of edits on your work, or 17 00:01:01,410 --> 00:01:03,970 perhaps you're breaking into an English speaking jurisdiction 18 00:01:03,980 --> 00:01:07,290 for the first time, Grammatica International can help. 19 00:01:07,520 --> 00:01:10,370 I'm Rebecca Lockwood, the lawyer, mediator and educator 20 00:01:10,380 --> 00:01:13,590 behind Grammatica, and we help lawyers and law students to 21 00:01:13,600 --> 00:01:16,770 write more sharply, speak more clearly, and advance their 22 00:01:16,780 --> 00:01:19,710 careers with group training and one-on-one skills coaching 23 00:01:19,760 --> 00:01:21,770 designed just for legal professionals. 24 00:01:22,180 --> 00:01:24,890 I have worked with so many lawyers like you who are 25 00:01:24,900 --> 00:01:28,450 exceptionally smart, qualified and capable, but need a bit of 26 00:01:28,460 --> 00:01:31,130 guidance to stand out in a competitive legal market. 27 00:01:31,620 --> 00:01:33,990 And I get it myself, having lived and worked in five 28 00:01:34,000 --> 00:01:37,250 countries during my 17 years in law and education. 29 00:01:37,770 --> 00:01:39,900 Whether you're looking to sharpen your writing skills, 30 00:01:39,910 --> 00:01:43,380 generally refresh your CV, or draft an application for a law 31 00:01:43,390 --> 00:01:48,140 program, Grammatica can help. Visit gramatica.co to learn 32 00:01:48,150 --> 00:01:55,190 more. Today I have the opportunity to 33 00:01:55,200 --> 00:01:59,860 interview Andrew Boyer. He's the founder and CEO of ADB 34 00:01:59,870 --> 00:02:03,520 Incites, a company that has organized and and has been 35 00:02:03,530 --> 00:02:07,330 organizing incredible events all around the legal and technology 36 00:02:07,340 --> 00:02:09,430 sectors. Thank you so much for joining us 37 00:02:09,440 --> 00:02:10,940 today, Andrew. Thanks Claudio. 38 00:02:10,949 --> 00:02:13,450 Nice to be here. Appreciate the opportunity to 39 00:02:13,460 --> 00:02:15,710 speak on your podcast. I appreciate you being here 40 00:02:15,720 --> 00:02:16,950 today. And she started off. 41 00:02:16,960 --> 00:02:20,170 I'd love for you to introduce yourself to your audience. 42 00:02:20,220 --> 00:02:22,270 Yeah. So I'm the founder of ADB 43 00:02:22,280 --> 00:02:27,350 Insights, which you have noted is a, I call it a media company 44 00:02:27,360 --> 00:02:33,660 and we without news and we focus on you know, convening folks 45 00:02:33,670 --> 00:02:38,240 from various different sectors around the ages of innovation. 46 00:02:38,310 --> 00:02:42,710 So our main platform and franchise is called the Legal 47 00:02:42,720 --> 00:02:46,140 Innovation Forum, which I founded in 2018. 48 00:02:46,190 --> 00:02:50,760 And we also are focused on the critical minerals slash mining 49 00:02:50,770 --> 00:02:54,460 space and the energy space as well and to some extent of 50 00:02:54,470 --> 00:02:57,700 financial services. And what we do is we put on 51 00:02:57,710 --> 00:03:00,780 programs through our various different platforms. 52 00:03:00,790 --> 00:03:06,230 We put on conferences, we put on round tables, workshops, 53 00:03:06,240 --> 00:03:11,330 symposiums, webinars, we produce podcasts as well and we publish 54 00:03:11,340 --> 00:03:16,350 articles. And also now we have a creative 55 00:03:16,360 --> 00:03:19,810 strategic communications agency focused on the legal tech 56 00:03:19,820 --> 00:03:21,570 sector. So lots of different things 57 00:03:21,580 --> 00:03:25,650 around, like I said, how these sectors and their ecosystems are 58 00:03:25,660 --> 00:03:29,710 changing, how players are innovating and creating a sort 59 00:03:29,720 --> 00:03:33,190 of clearing house for a various stakeholders across these 60 00:03:33,200 --> 00:03:37,030 different sectors that we're focused on specifically to be 61 00:03:37,040 --> 00:03:40,030 able to push the needle. Forward amazing. 62 00:03:40,080 --> 00:03:43,690 Well, I saw here when I was prepping for this episode, I, I 63 00:03:43,700 --> 00:03:46,180 read a little bit about what you put out there on the Internet 64 00:03:46,190 --> 00:03:49,670 and a little bit about your experience and I saw you've 65 00:03:49,680 --> 00:03:54,420 worked in London, New York, now in Toronto, and I wanted to ask 66 00:03:54,430 --> 00:03:56,790 you a little more about that. You know what have these global 67 00:03:56,800 --> 00:04:00,170 experiences taught you about how the legal profession is 68 00:04:00,180 --> 00:04:02,990 evolving, and also how it's intersecting more and more, 69 00:04:03,000 --> 00:04:04,330 We've innovation. Sure. 70 00:04:04,340 --> 00:04:10,610 So my background is I'm, I, I, as you noted, I, I spent 13 71 00:04:10,620 --> 00:04:13,830 years in London and New York, having grown up in Canada and, 72 00:04:13,840 --> 00:04:15,850 and in the West Coast, on the West Coast. 73 00:04:16,519 --> 00:04:21,110 And I started my career in London with the Financial Times 74 00:04:21,120 --> 00:04:26,710 where I ended up being the head of a group called strategic 75 00:04:26,720 --> 00:04:29,170 publishing. A quite a young age. 76 00:04:29,180 --> 00:04:33,930 Well, we were contending with then was content lead solutions 77 00:04:33,940 --> 00:04:37,360 for our advertisers, which in the FT there's obviously major 78 00:04:37,370 --> 00:04:40,950 advertisers to do sort of produce thought leadership, high 79 00:04:40,960 --> 00:04:45,410 grade content that our audience at the FT would be interested in 80 00:04:45,420 --> 00:04:48,650 engaging with. So in effect, working with the 81 00:04:48,660 --> 00:04:53,780 editorial and the commercial is very closely at once and I guess 82 00:04:53,790 --> 00:04:57,640 technically acting as the publisher of those, you know, 83 00:04:57,650 --> 00:05:00,330 various different programs, one of which was focused on the 84 00:05:00,340 --> 00:05:02,220 legal sector called Innovative lawyers. 85 00:05:02,310 --> 00:05:05,580 And then I was with Bloomberg for seven years and doing a 86 00:05:05,590 --> 00:05:08,120 bunch of different things in that company in London and New 87 00:05:08,130 --> 00:05:11,240 York and then all over the world by extension. 88 00:05:11,250 --> 00:05:14,140 And now I was, you know, not actually to do with the media 89 00:05:14,150 --> 00:05:15,900 world. It was more to do with their 90 00:05:16,770 --> 00:05:19,520 financial services business, the Bloomberg Terminal and the 91 00:05:19,530 --> 00:05:22,760 enterprise business and numerous different things which I will go 92 00:05:22,770 --> 00:05:27,360 into top line on what I learned. I think in both those companies, 93 00:05:27,430 --> 00:05:30,700 what is mastering the craft of publishing, which is really what 94 00:05:30,710 --> 00:05:33,350 our around thought leadership, which is what I really learned 95 00:05:33,360 --> 00:05:36,590 at the FT and Bloomberg. I learned a lot about 96 00:05:36,600 --> 00:05:39,410 innovation. I worked with a lot of lawyers, 97 00:05:39,420 --> 00:05:43,910 but I really saw the heartbeat of how a very, very successful 98 00:05:43,980 --> 00:05:48,430 technology innovative company works with a very innovative 99 00:05:48,440 --> 00:05:50,480 culture, unique way of doing things that. 100 00:05:50,600 --> 00:05:53,640 So I think melding those two together inspired me to start my 101 00:05:53,650 --> 00:05:56,550 business and come back to Canada in 2018. 102 00:05:56,880 --> 00:06:01,290 So on the legal front, I mean, we look at things like we like I 103 00:06:01,300 --> 00:06:05,130 said, we look at things in the sectoral from a sectoral lens. 104 00:06:05,180 --> 00:06:07,920 So if you look at the legal sector, it's like any other 105 00:06:07,930 --> 00:06:11,090 sector. You have a market that's going 106 00:06:11,100 --> 00:06:14,370 on within that sector. You have law firms, you have 107 00:06:14,380 --> 00:06:17,570 legal departments and you have third party service providers 108 00:06:17,640 --> 00:06:22,230 and what's happened? And the and then you also 109 00:06:22,240 --> 00:06:25,390 consumers as well, consumers of legal services like you and me. 110 00:06:25,440 --> 00:06:29,790 What you see happening in a sector like legal is technology 111 00:06:29,860 --> 00:06:33,530 is disrupting legal, like it has disrupted all the other sectors, 112 00:06:33,540 --> 00:06:37,150 but it's disrupting the sort of commercial basis of that sector. 113 00:06:37,210 --> 00:06:40,390 And and then you also have other service providers, alternative 114 00:06:40,400 --> 00:06:43,870 legal service providers, consulting firms, the big four, 115 00:06:43,960 --> 00:06:47,250 and see this complex landscape that's undergoing a lot of 116 00:06:47,260 --> 00:06:49,910 change from the old ways of doing things. 117 00:06:50,000 --> 00:06:53,350 And what we want to do is cover and frame and crystallize what 118 00:06:53,360 --> 00:06:56,650 that change means and give people insights into how they 119 00:06:56,660 --> 00:07:00,690 can navigate that as a professional and see the 120 00:07:00,700 --> 00:07:03,440 opportunities and also be able to think about and address 121 00:07:03,520 --> 00:07:05,670 challenges. If you look at a sector like the 122 00:07:05,680 --> 00:07:08,410 critical mineral sector, which is a which is a new area we're 123 00:07:08,420 --> 00:07:12,010 looking at, again, sector going undergoing a huge amount of 124 00:07:12,020 --> 00:07:13,710 change. A lot of that's driven by 125 00:07:13,760 --> 00:07:16,750 external factors. You have our economy, which is 126 00:07:16,760 --> 00:07:19,870 based on specific critical minerals that we've built this 127 00:07:19,880 --> 00:07:21,630 sort of energy transition around. 128 00:07:21,640 --> 00:07:23,530 So you look at electric cars, for example. 129 00:07:23,580 --> 00:07:26,450 And So what we're seeing in the headlines now has become a 130 00:07:26,460 --> 00:07:29,970 geopolitical question as well, right? 131 00:07:29,980 --> 00:07:36,290 It's a front page story on on what what we're experiencing 132 00:07:36,300 --> 00:07:40,270 because you have this massive reordering of globalization 133 00:07:40,280 --> 00:07:42,540 underway. And so you see this strategic 134 00:07:42,550 --> 00:07:44,990 imperative from the United States, for example, and the 135 00:07:45,000 --> 00:07:48,550 folks are waking up to the fact that, you know, for sourcing 136 00:07:48,560 --> 00:07:51,650 minerals from what the Americans consider strategic competitor in 137 00:07:51,660 --> 00:07:53,850 China, they need to look at other sources. 138 00:07:53,860 --> 00:07:56,530 So that's where this sort of dynamic comes into play. 139 00:07:56,660 --> 00:07:59,910 But the bigger picture there is really, you have a sector that's 140 00:07:59,920 --> 00:08:03,070 nascent but fundamental to the future of our economies. 141 00:08:03,080 --> 00:08:06,430 It's worked on assumed ways the last 20 years before and the 142 00:08:06,440 --> 00:08:09,170 deck chairs are changing. And so all the constituent 143 00:08:09,180 --> 00:08:12,630 players in that sector, for example, are industry players, 144 00:08:12,680 --> 00:08:15,170 folks building supply chains of downstream. 145 00:08:15,180 --> 00:08:18,310 So, you know, OEM's and automakers, for example, or 146 00:08:18,320 --> 00:08:21,650 OEM's, automakers and other providers. 147 00:08:21,780 --> 00:08:25,650 You have government, you have other stakeholders and you have 148 00:08:25,660 --> 00:08:28,590 capital, other stakeholders being for example, in Canada 149 00:08:28,640 --> 00:08:30,250 very important Indigenous peoples. 150 00:08:30,330 --> 00:08:34,460 You look at Bill C5 coming out, obviously that's creating quite 151 00:08:34,470 --> 00:08:37,520 a few headlines in Canada, rightfully so. 152 00:08:37,750 --> 00:08:40,480 And so. And then you have professionals, 153 00:08:40,730 --> 00:08:43,460 you have lawyers, you have consultants, etcetera. 154 00:08:44,130 --> 00:08:47,560 And so all of these and and technology, technology is a key 155 00:08:47,570 --> 00:08:49,980 part of part of this as well, especially with the AI 156 00:08:49,990 --> 00:08:52,380 revolution, it, it's impacting a lot of things. 157 00:08:53,170 --> 00:08:57,420 What we're looking at is, OK, well, all those folks moving 158 00:08:57,430 --> 00:09:03,970 around in that the ecosystem need to embrace innovation to 159 00:09:03,980 --> 00:09:07,070 change because some things work and some things don't. 160 00:09:07,080 --> 00:09:10,090 But there's no substitute for the fact that change is 161 00:09:10,140 --> 00:09:12,920 omnipresent everywhere. And so that's again, just sort 162 00:09:12,930 --> 00:09:16,490 of providing that framework for people to kind of think beyond 163 00:09:16,560 --> 00:09:20,030 and have the toolkits to think beyond where things stand now in 164 00:09:20,040 --> 00:09:24,220 the face of change. So that all being said this way 165 00:09:24,230 --> 00:09:27,770 that we look at sectors and and guide people, we can look at all 166 00:09:27,780 --> 00:09:29,280 kinds of different sectors as well. 167 00:09:29,290 --> 00:09:31,290 You look at these ecosystems undergoing change. 168 00:09:31,300 --> 00:09:32,870 So those are the ones we've chosen today. 169 00:09:32,940 --> 00:09:35,750 Incredible. And if I may ask you, was there 170 00:09:35,760 --> 00:09:39,370 any kind of gap in the market that that pushed you into 171 00:09:39,440 --> 00:09:43,890 starting and and taking the leap to launch ADB being sites or to 172 00:09:43,900 --> 00:09:48,310 you know all these stakeholders together in and making really a 173 00:09:48,320 --> 00:09:49,910 dialogue with the legal innovation? 174 00:09:49,920 --> 00:09:54,980 Foreign, yeah, I mean I saw an opportunity to to get into the 175 00:09:54,990 --> 00:09:58,510 legal space at least and start ADB insights from those with the 176 00:09:58,520 --> 00:10:01,480 consulting firm after Bloomberg and it was focused on the 177 00:10:01,520 --> 00:10:04,730 innovation as in the legal sector out of London. 178 00:10:04,740 --> 00:10:08,020 And yeah, I saw an opportunity and and met some people in 179 00:10:08,030 --> 00:10:10,010 Canada and that was kind of what sparked it. 180 00:10:10,020 --> 00:10:13,020 And I had a few friends who were in the conference business. 181 00:10:13,030 --> 00:10:15,640 So we started as conferences only. 182 00:10:15,730 --> 00:10:17,680 And then in the pandemic, we had to innovate. 183 00:10:17,690 --> 00:10:20,620 So we did a lot of virtual events, a lot of webinars, which 184 00:10:20,630 --> 00:10:22,560 is still a big part of our business model. 185 00:10:22,650 --> 00:10:27,180 And so, yeah, I mean, I think the way as an entrepreneur you 186 00:10:27,190 --> 00:10:32,570 think about competition is, um, I don't spend a lot of time 187 00:10:32,620 --> 00:10:37,710 looking at, I look at how others do it and I think about maybe we 188 00:10:37,720 --> 00:10:40,920 could do differently or, or take parts of the way they do things. 189 00:10:40,930 --> 00:10:44,160 But the space too is, is I think, you know, you've got to 190 00:10:44,170 --> 00:10:48,580 sort of capture this fulcrum of, of, of where folks are really 191 00:10:48,590 --> 00:10:52,700 looking to guide themselves through these key, key 192 00:10:52,710 --> 00:10:54,920 challenges going on. If you look at legal, for 193 00:10:54,930 --> 00:10:57,760 example, because I know you're, you studied law and I think this 194 00:10:57,770 --> 00:11:03,650 is a law power podcast. The, the way that we look at a 195 00:11:03,660 --> 00:11:06,750 sector like legal is if you're a professional, you're not 196 00:11:06,760 --> 00:11:09,210 necessarily a lawyer, you're not necessarily trained about the 197 00:11:09,220 --> 00:11:11,170 business of law. You're trained at being an 198 00:11:11,180 --> 00:11:14,890 expert on your field and your specific practice within that 199 00:11:14,900 --> 00:11:17,230 field, right? That's what people and where I 200 00:11:17,240 --> 00:11:19,810 saw the gap was at the time when I started the business was 201 00:11:19,820 --> 00:11:22,570 people were very focused on putting on events about their 202 00:11:22,580 --> 00:11:26,230 subject matter expertise. And, and I was taking a 203 00:11:26,240 --> 00:11:29,950 different view of it being an ecosystem of folks. 204 00:11:30,360 --> 00:11:34,330 Law is big business, it's a huge business and it's in fundamental 205 00:11:34,340 --> 00:11:37,050 business. And so that's where we saw the, 206 00:11:37,260 --> 00:11:40,770 I saw the opportunity of looking at the business of law. 207 00:11:40,780 --> 00:11:43,270 And now we say the legal innovation forums about the 208 00:11:43,280 --> 00:11:46,420 intersection of business and law and the business of law. 209 00:11:46,470 --> 00:11:49,280 And what I mean by that is the other piece that you take it a 210 00:11:49,290 --> 00:11:54,040 step further is that law legal tends to think of itself as 211 00:11:54,050 --> 00:11:56,660 existing in a bubble. And to some extent it does 212 00:11:56,670 --> 00:11:59,440 because the laws are the laws and and the laws of the land and 213 00:11:59,450 --> 00:12:02,100 whichever land you're in that that's that's important. 214 00:12:02,150 --> 00:12:05,500 But in a business context or even a consumer context. 215 00:12:05,510 --> 00:12:07,360 But let's talk about business to business law. 216 00:12:07,370 --> 00:12:10,880 So big law, they also are servicing businesses. 217 00:12:10,970 --> 00:12:14,520 And what I know from being a business person and these 218 00:12:14,530 --> 00:12:17,360 businesses and having work, especially in my Bloomberg days, 219 00:12:17,370 --> 00:12:19,880 worked with some brilliant lawyers in house and private 220 00:12:19,890 --> 00:12:24,280 practice. And their job is to support the 221 00:12:24,290 --> 00:12:27,670 business, help them achieve their goals, but also protect 222 00:12:27,680 --> 00:12:30,200 the business. And I think in the current time 223 00:12:30,210 --> 00:12:32,980 that we live in now, it's more important than ever because it's 224 00:12:32,990 --> 00:12:37,080 a risk on era that we're living in, meaning we have all these 225 00:12:37,090 --> 00:12:40,800 sort of multitudes and compounding risks, trade risk, 226 00:12:40,810 --> 00:12:45,740 geopolitical risk, tech digital risk, which includes cyber risk 227 00:12:45,750 --> 00:12:49,500 of your data and then of course, without saying AI. 228 00:12:49,650 --> 00:12:54,020 And then you have, you know, law firms who are service providers 229 00:12:54,030 --> 00:12:56,830 to those legal departments who are trying to really help their 230 00:12:56,840 --> 00:13:00,040 businesses navigate. And I think now actually, we 231 00:13:00,050 --> 00:13:03,100 really live in an interesting time because as I said earlier, 232 00:13:03,110 --> 00:13:05,500 the deck chairs are being reordered in the world. 233 00:13:05,570 --> 00:13:10,960 All the assumptions we based on on on on globalization, say post 234 00:13:11,570 --> 00:13:15,220 1989, the fall of the Berlin Wall, those assumptions are 235 00:13:15,230 --> 00:13:18,800 changing and you have these compounding crises, which 236 00:13:18,890 --> 00:13:21,230 companies, if you think about large multinational 237 00:13:21,240 --> 00:13:23,310 organizations, all these assumptions they base their 238 00:13:23,320 --> 00:13:25,890 business models on are fundamentally changing in front 239 00:13:25,900 --> 00:13:28,910 of our eyes. And so that creates opportunity, 240 00:13:28,990 --> 00:13:31,310 but it also creates a lot of headwinds of risk. 241 00:13:31,320 --> 00:13:35,050 So I think the role of lawyers or what their job is to do is to 242 00:13:35,060 --> 00:13:39,550 help organizations manage risk and how that reforms itself and 243 00:13:39,560 --> 00:13:43,290 reorganizes itself in the face of this change that's going on 244 00:13:43,300 --> 00:13:47,690 in the business world where the economic world or society, those 245 00:13:47,700 --> 00:13:50,310 are all fundamental things. And I think lawyers are key 246 00:13:50,320 --> 00:13:53,460 navigators and the way they think about things to help the 247 00:13:53,470 --> 00:13:56,870 businesses navigate is paramount now. 248 00:13:56,920 --> 00:13:59,150 So that's one piece that we're helping these, like helping 249 00:13:59,160 --> 00:14:02,080 these folks think this is my role and this is my role is 250 00:14:02,090 --> 00:14:03,190 going to look like in five years. 251 00:14:03,260 --> 00:14:05,960 But the fundamental thing is complexity in the world is not 252 00:14:05,970 --> 00:14:07,260 going to change, not in our lifetime. 253 00:14:07,270 --> 00:14:10,040 And world's always been complex, but it's especially complex. 254 00:14:10,050 --> 00:14:12,380 Now. On top of that, you have this 255 00:14:12,390 --> 00:14:14,840 business of law, which is how you practice the law. 256 00:14:14,850 --> 00:14:18,240 How do you use technology? All the all the ways you can do 257 00:14:18,250 --> 00:14:21,340 things in terms of process, people and technology 258 00:14:21,490 --> 00:14:23,580 differently. And we want to sort of meld 259 00:14:23,590 --> 00:14:26,120 those too, right? How can you think about just 260 00:14:26,130 --> 00:14:29,300 let's let's take your assumptions out of how your role 261 00:14:29,310 --> 00:14:32,640 looks now to five years hence, 2030. 262 00:14:32,700 --> 00:14:33,960 I think it will look quite different. 263 00:14:34,170 --> 00:14:36,120 And so there's two ways to look at it. 264 00:14:36,130 --> 00:14:39,040 One is to say, well, gosh, I just finished law school. 265 00:14:39,050 --> 00:14:41,960 I'm in deep trouble because you know, these headlines, I see the 266 00:14:41,970 --> 00:14:45,000 McKinsey report 45. You know, this is number 2 in 267 00:14:45,010 --> 00:14:48,260 terms of disrupted sectors, and there's probably some truth to 268 00:14:48,270 --> 00:14:49,500 that. I think there's certainly some 269 00:14:49,510 --> 00:14:51,050 truth to that. But it also creates 270 00:14:51,060 --> 00:14:53,180 opportunities if you think differently about what your 271 00:14:53,190 --> 00:14:57,230 function is and the value of that approach and that way of 272 00:14:57,240 --> 00:15:00,090 thinking and helping organizations or people manage 273 00:15:00,800 --> 00:15:06,190 all these sort of multitudes of risk is a real fundamental value 274 00:15:06,200 --> 00:15:08,510 add to our time. And so that's what I want to 275 00:15:08,520 --> 00:15:10,830 harness. It turns our programs over. 276 00:15:10,880 --> 00:15:13,090 That's quite, quite. Interesting to hear and you 277 00:15:13,100 --> 00:15:15,710 understand a little bit of your perspective when when it comes 278 00:15:15,720 --> 00:15:17,310 to that. And if I may ask you 279 00:15:17,320 --> 00:15:20,150 specifically about, you know, since you began running the 280 00:15:20,160 --> 00:15:23,510 Canadian legal innovation form, were there a few shifts that 281 00:15:23,520 --> 00:15:27,030 you've noticed in the legal profession in the approach that 282 00:15:27,040 --> 00:15:29,640 lawyers take or in the way that they are interacting with 283 00:15:29,650 --> 00:15:31,270 innovation? Yeah, for sure. 284 00:15:31,360 --> 00:15:34,910 Oh, we see it like in a couple different ways, right. 285 00:15:34,920 --> 00:15:38,010 So first of all, like legal innovation reform, we started in 286 00:15:38,020 --> 00:15:40,220 Canada. Now we run our programs in the 287 00:15:40,230 --> 00:15:45,380 US and Canada in major centres with lots of legal departments. 288 00:15:45,390 --> 00:15:49,730 So places like Toronto, Houston, Atlanta, New York, Chicago. 289 00:15:50,300 --> 00:15:53,430 We also ran a series in the Middle East for first series in 290 00:15:53,440 --> 00:15:56,730 Abu Dhabi, Dubai and Riyadh in the spring. 291 00:15:56,800 --> 00:15:59,890 So we'll be going back to that, that that region. 292 00:16:00,060 --> 00:16:02,570 And what I've noticed is that you have these fundamental 293 00:16:02,580 --> 00:16:05,120 fulcrums. So interestingly, right, I 294 00:16:05,130 --> 00:16:08,630 started my business late 2018. It was December 2018 was my 295 00:16:08,640 --> 00:16:12,300 first conference. We had the pandemic, I mean, 296 00:16:12,530 --> 00:16:15,760 1314 months into my business, which I thought I was in deep 297 00:16:15,770 --> 00:16:17,980 trouble because I was lucky for conferences and we just started 298 00:16:17,990 --> 00:16:21,650 getting off the ground and we've done 6 or 7 conferences. 299 00:16:21,760 --> 00:16:24,190 We were very quick to move. All of a sudden we had to 300 00:16:24,200 --> 00:16:26,130 innovate. My business model had to change 301 00:16:26,140 --> 00:16:29,350 fundamentally. I, I started to say in my 302 00:16:29,360 --> 00:16:31,970 mindset, I said, OK, pandemic. All the other conference 303 00:16:31,980 --> 00:16:34,590 produces a lot were saying it's going to be 3 months. 304 00:16:34,600 --> 00:16:37,670 We can't wait till it goes back. And I said, I'm going to do 305 00:16:37,680 --> 00:16:39,350 webinars. I had happened to be doing 306 00:16:39,360 --> 00:16:42,880 webinars as a consultant for Bloomberg Law in 2019 through a 307 00:16:42,890 --> 00:16:45,470 connection of Bloomberg because I was bootstrapping my business. 308 00:16:45,480 --> 00:16:47,510 So I was an editorial consultant, so I knew how to do 309 00:16:47,520 --> 00:16:50,270 webinar. So I said, OK, well, I already 310 00:16:50,280 --> 00:16:52,950 had that idea, but none of my sponsors would listen to me. 311 00:16:52,960 --> 00:16:56,510 2019 And then they start at the phone started ringing after 312 00:16:56,520 --> 00:16:58,290 about a month. And so actually it was a great 313 00:16:58,300 --> 00:17:00,490 business because I just took the assumption. 314 00:17:00,500 --> 00:17:03,970 I said again, the fundamentals have changed, Let's look in this 315 00:17:03,980 --> 00:17:07,000 world for now and let's forget doing anything live and we 316 00:17:07,010 --> 00:17:10,099 didn't do anything live for two years, 2 1/2, well, two years 317 00:17:10,109 --> 00:17:12,579 and two months and then we came back and it's a hybrid. 318 00:17:12,589 --> 00:17:14,339 So I think same with legal, right? 319 00:17:14,349 --> 00:17:18,319 The pandemic and any sector, the pandemic was a real accelerator 320 00:17:18,329 --> 00:17:22,200 that this excuse of not being able to use technology was no 321 00:17:22,210 --> 00:17:24,460 longer applicable. Everybody had to learn how to 322 00:17:24,470 --> 00:17:27,390 use, everybody had to, you know, and it's just become part of the 323 00:17:27,400 --> 00:17:29,040 furniture. So I think that was a real 324 00:17:29,050 --> 00:17:31,780 catalyst out of the and then there was all the stuff of 325 00:17:31,790 --> 00:17:34,760 managing through the pandemic and all of the risks and 326 00:17:34,770 --> 00:17:37,780 challenges that I think everyone experiences, not just legal 327 00:17:37,790 --> 00:17:40,140 profession. I think the second big thing 328 00:17:40,150 --> 00:17:45,150 that we saw was a couple of years ago when Chachi PT came 329 00:17:45,160 --> 00:17:48,570 out, the ChatGPT 4 came out in November 23. 330 00:17:48,640 --> 00:17:50,630 That was another fundamental week forward. 331 00:17:50,640 --> 00:17:52,910 So again, it's not like I didn't exist. 332 00:17:52,920 --> 00:17:55,710 It's not like people were not using AI and legal, but all of a 333 00:17:55,720 --> 00:17:57,390 sudden it became a headline thing. 334 00:17:57,480 --> 00:18:00,230 And what's been interesting, you know, for my business is you 335 00:18:00,240 --> 00:18:03,050 have these, those are sort of backdrop, fundamental game 336 00:18:03,060 --> 00:18:06,050 changers in the sector and marking how that's changing. 337 00:18:06,060 --> 00:18:09,590 So if you look at the stories about AI a couple of years ago 338 00:18:09,660 --> 00:18:12,230 that we were producing was like, what does the world look like 339 00:18:12,240 --> 00:18:15,990 with AI River's navel gazing. Now it's well, AI's integrated 340 00:18:16,000 --> 00:18:17,890 in the practice and this is what's working and this is 341 00:18:17,900 --> 00:18:21,090 what's not. And now is how do you prompt or 342 00:18:21,160 --> 00:18:24,370 how do you train your associates to have the same level of 343 00:18:24,380 --> 00:18:26,810 knowledge as you do? You know, one thing you hear 344 00:18:26,820 --> 00:18:30,330 about AI is folks say, you know, partners in law firm are better 345 00:18:30,340 --> 00:18:33,950 users than AI, which is kind of contradictory because you think 346 00:18:34,020 --> 00:18:37,150 and and, and and new graduates are more fearful of AI. 347 00:18:37,680 --> 00:18:39,680 And you kind of think that's contradictory because you think, 348 00:18:39,690 --> 00:18:42,630 OK, folks in their late 20s, early 30s adopting, you know, 349 00:18:42,640 --> 00:18:46,170 starting in their careers, very tech savvy, digital, you know, 350 00:18:46,240 --> 00:18:50,810 born, born with a, you know, completely digital life. 351 00:18:50,860 --> 00:18:54,190 And, and, and so it's just sort of second nature versus a 50 352 00:18:54,200 --> 00:18:57,090 year old partner who's like, yeah, yeah, I was 20 when the 353 00:18:57,100 --> 00:19:01,570 Internet came around or 25. And so but it's prompting, it's 354 00:19:01,580 --> 00:19:05,110 the questions to not ask to know the outputs being not correct 355 00:19:05,180 --> 00:19:08,110 and going back on that. And I think there's also a 356 00:19:08,120 --> 00:19:11,350 fundamental fear. I would imagine younger lawyers 357 00:19:11,360 --> 00:19:16,070 with lots of debt saying I, I might, I don't know what my 358 00:19:16,080 --> 00:19:17,690 career is going to look like. I, I don't know. 359 00:19:17,700 --> 00:19:20,470 And I think the general consensus is that, well, look 360 00:19:20,480 --> 00:19:22,810 much different than perhaps when you, what you thought it would 361 00:19:22,820 --> 00:19:24,150 look like and when you begin with. 362 00:19:24,160 --> 00:19:26,010 But there's lots of opportunities. 363 00:19:26,020 --> 00:19:31,170 If you take those skills and use that to your advantage, I think 364 00:19:31,180 --> 00:19:33,530 some people will become very, very successful with that. 365 00:19:33,540 --> 00:19:35,830 But it's not necessarily an easy mindset to adopt. 366 00:19:35,840 --> 00:19:38,630 And it's easy to say it's an entrepreneur like myself. 367 00:19:38,720 --> 00:19:40,500 That's all well and good, but I'm an entrepreneur. 368 00:19:40,510 --> 00:19:42,070 I'm, I'm used to changing things. 369 00:19:42,080 --> 00:19:44,370 I'm used to change. I'm used to opportunities and I 370 00:19:44,380 --> 00:19:46,850 have experience that now. Understood. 371 00:19:47,000 --> 00:19:50,890 And taking a specific look at that, when you see, you know, 372 00:19:50,900 --> 00:19:55,710 law firms and in-house teams working in the different 373 00:19:55,880 --> 00:19:58,990 plethora of issues that they have to deal with and then 374 00:19:59,000 --> 00:20:02,390 having, you know, to content deliver to all of these 375 00:20:02,500 --> 00:20:04,310 different stakeholders in groups. 376 00:20:04,380 --> 00:20:07,650 Do you think there is sure few things that these groups or law 377 00:20:07,660 --> 00:20:10,850 firms show might be getting wrong when they talk about 378 00:20:10,860 --> 00:20:12,890 innovation? They think there's anything in 379 00:20:12,900 --> 00:20:14,830 particular that you could pinpoint? 380 00:20:15,140 --> 00:20:17,550 There's assumptions from people that things will change 381 00:20:17,620 --> 00:20:21,020 fundamentally very quickly. And then there's assumptions and 382 00:20:21,030 --> 00:20:23,730 then there's it's hard to assume what that may look like. 383 00:20:23,740 --> 00:20:26,010 So, you know, assumptions are are hard. 384 00:20:26,020 --> 00:20:28,120 That can be a bit more rude about what people say about 385 00:20:28,130 --> 00:20:32,110 assumptions. But I think that the best, you 386 00:20:32,120 --> 00:20:34,950 know, the mistakes that are made is, and it's hard, I think for 387 00:20:34,960 --> 00:20:37,060 people who are trained as lawyers, right? 388 00:20:37,070 --> 00:20:39,740 Because your job is to say this, this and this might happen. 389 00:20:39,750 --> 00:20:43,720 So therefore you have to be aware of that in case, because 390 00:20:43,730 --> 00:20:46,240 this might happen. And, and people who are not 391 00:20:46,250 --> 00:20:49,220 lawyers like me say, well, that might happen, but I don't care. 392 00:20:49,230 --> 00:20:52,480 I'm going to keep going and, and, and see what happens. 393 00:20:52,490 --> 00:20:55,900 And and that and that mindset, I think is more difficult for 394 00:20:55,910 --> 00:21:00,080 lawyers because they're used to saying, yeah, but so I think 395 00:21:00,090 --> 00:21:04,110 that's a real challenge for folks to say, well, one part I 396 00:21:04,120 --> 00:21:07,690 need to embrace the possibility of change in my profession. 397 00:21:07,780 --> 00:21:12,050 And yet in my professional life, I have to navigate and help 398 00:21:12,060 --> 00:21:15,070 people really define how they manage risk. 399 00:21:15,080 --> 00:21:18,750 So I think I think that's a part, I think in, in terms of 400 00:21:18,760 --> 00:21:21,710 innovation, just depends on who you're talking to. 401 00:21:21,720 --> 00:21:26,250 Some folks will say, don't need to care, but I'm going to retire 402 00:21:26,260 --> 00:21:28,470 in five years. I would say to them, you should 403 00:21:28,480 --> 00:21:30,510 care because you need to sell your stake. 404 00:21:30,520 --> 00:21:33,070 If you're in a partner fermions, you need someone to buy that 405 00:21:33,080 --> 00:21:35,270 steak. The firm needs to maintain or 406 00:21:35,280 --> 00:21:38,510 grow its value. Or if you're an owner of a firm, 407 00:21:38,520 --> 00:21:41,770 a small firm like you and here, for example, in personal injury 408 00:21:41,780 --> 00:21:43,270 firm. So what's the value of the thing 409 00:21:43,280 --> 00:21:45,720 you're selling to people if AI can do everything? 410 00:21:45,790 --> 00:21:48,980 And finally, talent. If you're a senior leader and 411 00:21:48,990 --> 00:21:50,910 you're not attracting the right talent because you don't care 412 00:21:50,920 --> 00:21:53,660 about technology, Claudia, you graduated recently. 413 00:21:53,850 --> 00:21:58,000 You would know this for a fact that you want to work in that 414 00:21:58,010 --> 00:22:00,200 cool and innovative place because you wanna you wanna 415 00:22:00,210 --> 00:22:03,660 future ahead of yourself. So I think that's a mistake is 416 00:22:03,670 --> 00:22:06,300 to to to bury your head in the sand that things aren't 417 00:22:06,310 --> 00:22:08,060 changing. Well, on the other hand, not be 418 00:22:08,070 --> 00:22:11,740 too much of A Pollyanna and saying it's going to change, 419 00:22:11,910 --> 00:22:14,440 yeah, we're the world's fault. Like the sky is falling. 420 00:22:14,450 --> 00:22:17,760 It falls in between. What I observe is people make do 421 00:22:17,770 --> 00:22:19,320 and they adjust and they innovate. 422 00:22:19,370 --> 00:22:22,600 Incredible. So specifically talking about 423 00:22:22,610 --> 00:22:26,130 now the IBA events coming up in Toronto International Bar 424 00:22:26,140 --> 00:22:29,880 Association, you've, you've chosen to talk about some of the 425 00:22:29,950 --> 00:22:33,660 some very specific topics on critical minerals legal 426 00:22:33,670 --> 00:22:36,480 operations. So those those events that will 427 00:22:36,490 --> 00:22:39,470 run alongside with the, the main IB events. 428 00:22:39,480 --> 00:22:42,420 And I wanted to ask you a little bit about, you know, I know that 429 00:22:42,490 --> 00:22:46,420 your company focused on this team themes, but what kinds of 430 00:22:46,430 --> 00:22:50,060 conversations are you hoping they're going to spark while all 431 00:22:50,070 --> 00:22:51,860 of these lawyers will be here in Toronto? 432 00:22:51,910 --> 00:22:57,080 So we we're not aligned with the idea officially we're doing, 433 00:22:57,090 --> 00:23:01,240 we're hosting these off IBA events because as we're you know 434 00:23:01,250 --> 00:23:04,910 a lot of lawyers are based in Toronto like you lawyers coming 435 00:23:04,920 --> 00:23:06,680 into town. So we're working with a few 436 00:23:06,690 --> 00:23:09,560 partners on that. We have 10 launch it officially, 437 00:23:09,570 --> 00:23:13,800 but it's being finalized. And we think that those topics 438 00:23:13,810 --> 00:23:17,720 fit into our warehouse nicely because in the substantive areas 439 00:23:17,730 --> 00:23:21,140 the things were interested in our financial services, critical 440 00:23:21,150 --> 00:23:25,040 minerals and trade by definition plus legal innovations. 441 00:23:25,050 --> 00:23:27,300 So we've got three different roundtables planned. 442 00:23:27,350 --> 00:23:30,520 Those would be sort of 12 to 2:00 PM's and invite and then 443 00:23:30,530 --> 00:23:34,200 have a sort of rich conversation with various perspectives from 444 00:23:34,210 --> 00:23:37,440 around the world again about this intersection of business 445 00:23:37,450 --> 00:23:39,920 and law. So it won't be substantive in 446 00:23:39,930 --> 00:23:42,260 the sense and it will be more how does this fit into the 447 00:23:42,270 --> 00:23:44,130 bigger picture. And as part of those round 448 00:23:44,140 --> 00:23:47,990 tables not invite non lawyers as well folks who are you know, in 449 00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:52,040 the business world in in in finance, consulting industry, 450 00:23:52,050 --> 00:23:55,180 etcetera to make that really like that's what what we want to 451 00:23:55,190 --> 00:23:57,830 get out of these is it's an ecosystem approach. 452 00:23:57,880 --> 00:24:00,640 Outstanding as we, as we've been talking through this 453 00:24:00,650 --> 00:24:03,610 conversation today and we've, we've definitely touched on and 454 00:24:03,620 --> 00:24:09,050 off on AI and, and how I know is, is very much the, the topic 455 00:24:09,060 --> 00:24:11,630 of just about everything you read these days, right? 456 00:24:11,640 --> 00:24:16,150 Every every third article, every 3rd YouTube video. 457 00:24:16,200 --> 00:24:19,110 But I think that many of these conversations are very much 458 00:24:19,120 --> 00:24:20,550 needed. You have. 459 00:24:20,600 --> 00:24:25,320 So I'm wondering from your work and what you've been doing along 460 00:24:25,330 --> 00:24:29,050 with lawyers, what do you think that or how much do you think 461 00:24:29,060 --> 00:24:32,550 it's real change coming to everybody's way? 462 00:24:32,600 --> 00:24:35,870 And then how much do you think it's actually just noise that 463 00:24:35,880 --> 00:24:39,970 the firms and as you said, talent will have to cut through? 464 00:24:40,020 --> 00:24:43,740 So they're not, you know, kind of just seduced by the shiny new 465 00:24:43,750 --> 00:24:47,570 AI that this firm is using. But maybe that that is not going 466 00:24:47,580 --> 00:24:51,700 to translate into the results they expect for their careers on 467 00:24:51,710 --> 00:24:55,050 the loyal side and then maybe for the results on the on the 468 00:24:55,060 --> 00:24:58,690 client side. I think I can have a huge impact 469 00:24:58,700 --> 00:25:02,730 on the structure of the sector. How that impact plays out, I 470 00:25:02,740 --> 00:25:07,610 think it will take time. I think it's having an impact to 471 00:25:07,620 --> 00:25:12,630 some extent, but it's, it hasn't been sort of seen yet. 472 00:25:12,740 --> 00:25:15,380 So the first thing to think about, right, is the client side 473 00:25:15,390 --> 00:25:18,390 first, the buyers of these services, what are they looking 474 00:25:18,400 --> 00:25:19,530 for? Well, first of all, if you're in 475 00:25:19,540 --> 00:25:23,110 a big corporate, not just you are talking about adopting AI, 476 00:25:23,120 --> 00:25:25,750 the rest of your company, the rest of your sector, say your 477 00:25:25,840 --> 00:25:30,270 financial services, I mean, very tech forward, AI has been 478 00:25:30,280 --> 00:25:32,110 integrated. That would be an accelerator. 479 00:25:32,120 --> 00:25:35,050 So your legal department is part of those businesses. 480 00:25:35,060 --> 00:25:37,690 That type of business is going to be going alongside that and 481 00:25:37,700 --> 00:25:39,720 looking for more efficient and effective ways because they 482 00:25:39,730 --> 00:25:42,150 don't sit in a vacuum. They sit in a bubble. 483 00:25:42,160 --> 00:25:45,290 They are integrated into those businesses and those businesses 484 00:25:45,300 --> 00:25:49,270 need to accelerate and address these risks that are completely 485 00:25:49,280 --> 00:25:52,350 coming at them all the time. And they are using legal as the 486 00:25:52,360 --> 00:25:55,760 backbone. So there that legal needs will 487 00:25:55,770 --> 00:26:00,040 be and is getting pulled along into that bigger AI story, 488 00:26:00,050 --> 00:26:03,020 right, Not just about the legal sector for the law firms 489 00:26:03,030 --> 00:26:06,460 themselves, You know, it doesn't take much to realize that you're 490 00:26:06,470 --> 00:26:08,660 going to be able, you're not going to be able to bill as many 491 00:26:08,670 --> 00:26:11,730 hours in the same way you did because a, I can do a lot of 492 00:26:11,740 --> 00:26:13,420 that associate work. You can do a lot of the 493 00:26:13,430 --> 00:26:15,380 research, you can do a lot of the production. 494 00:26:15,390 --> 00:26:17,260 And so where do you fit in there? 495 00:26:17,310 --> 00:26:21,620 Now, I would argue law firms and lawyers can add a lot of value 496 00:26:21,690 --> 00:26:24,150 with their expertise. It's just how they charge for 497 00:26:24,160 --> 00:26:26,780 that value will be perhaps in a different way. 498 00:26:26,870 --> 00:26:29,660 But whether those rate, you know, that the hourly billing 499 00:26:29,670 --> 00:26:32,170 model, I think will come into real question. 500 00:26:32,180 --> 00:26:34,150 And I think it is. So you'll see that sort of 501 00:26:34,160 --> 00:26:37,000 fundamental reordering of how firms work and maybe they don't 502 00:26:37,010 --> 00:26:39,260 need as many people, which obviously creates down 503 00:26:39,330 --> 00:26:41,820 downstream problem for new graduates, etcetera. 504 00:26:41,870 --> 00:26:46,910 But I don't do think how they are they crystallize that value 505 00:26:46,920 --> 00:26:49,840 through risk management for their clients and advising on 506 00:26:49,850 --> 00:26:54,180 that and supporting that creates opportunity, but it will take a 507 00:26:54,190 --> 00:26:56,580 fundamental shift and I'm not sure how it's going to look. 508 00:26:56,630 --> 00:27:00,210 So I think that's that's that's kind of how I see the I started 509 00:27:00,220 --> 00:27:01,960 playing. And I think another thing to 510 00:27:01,970 --> 00:27:05,720 think about for law firms, right, we're doing a symposium 511 00:27:05,730 --> 00:27:10,530 on the law firm of 2030 in September in Toronto. 512 00:27:10,630 --> 00:27:14,890 And one of the things is this notion of owning your IP of your 513 00:27:14,900 --> 00:27:17,210 firm. If that's built on AI models in 514 00:27:17,220 --> 00:27:20,740 five years, then who owns that, which is a big AI company on 515 00:27:20,750 --> 00:27:22,510 that IP? I mean, then there's always this 516 00:27:22,520 --> 00:27:25,130 fear that, hey, what business are we in, right? 517 00:27:25,140 --> 00:27:29,950 And so this move towards concepts of like that, the 518 00:27:29,960 --> 00:27:34,830 private cloud for to run your AI on our private LM's, you see 519 00:27:34,840 --> 00:27:37,300 this movement towards that because you don't necessarily 520 00:27:37,310 --> 00:27:39,350 want to give that IP away. You don't know what your 521 00:27:39,360 --> 00:27:41,370 structure your firm's going to look like, but it's going to 522 00:27:41,380 --> 00:27:43,850 look differently. So, yeah, so that's kind of like 523 00:27:43,860 --> 00:27:49,050 a long answer to your question, which is absolutely, I think 524 00:27:49,060 --> 00:27:51,090 those are the fundamental changes that are going to be 525 00:27:51,100 --> 00:27:53,510 happening. Anything else on law firms, is 526 00:27:53,520 --> 00:27:56,150 it legal departments are busy because we're working with the 527 00:27:56,160 --> 00:27:58,310 businesses they're in. And So what you see is law 528 00:27:58,320 --> 00:28:01,130 firms, innovation groups are expanding quite quickly the big 529 00:28:01,140 --> 00:28:04,320 law firms and they're able to advise and integrate a white 530 00:28:04,330 --> 00:28:07,250 label technology to serve their clients needs. 531 00:28:07,600 --> 00:28:10,890 Law firm is a sort of tech stack concept for their clients. 532 00:28:10,900 --> 00:28:14,060 Is also providing a tech deck is also pretty interesting. 533 00:28:14,070 --> 00:28:17,490 Amazing. So Andrew, I really appreciate 534 00:28:17,500 --> 00:28:20,950 all the insights you've brought so far and talking about 535 00:28:20,960 --> 00:28:24,010 specifically you're you're very specific role that you've been 536 00:28:24,020 --> 00:28:27,090 playing with your business. It brought me to think about two 537 00:28:27,100 --> 00:28:30,020 specific themes. Also talking about conferences 538 00:28:30,030 --> 00:28:33,490 and events that I believe that that lawyers would go and attend 539 00:28:33,500 --> 00:28:35,980 events for for few different reasons. 540 00:28:36,030 --> 00:28:38,560 One of them, of course, will be the training and the opportunity 541 00:28:38,570 --> 00:28:41,700 should be, you know, receiving information that is just, you 542 00:28:41,710 --> 00:28:44,590 know, new and very hot topic, so to say. 543 00:28:44,650 --> 00:28:47,640 But I also believe that there is another aspect of it on, on 544 00:28:47,650 --> 00:28:49,900 networking and business development. 545 00:28:49,950 --> 00:28:52,790 And I'm sure that some of the value of of having these 546 00:28:52,800 --> 00:28:56,220 conferences that you put together is that. 547 00:28:56,230 --> 00:28:58,960 So I was wondering what what things have you noticed that 548 00:28:58,970 --> 00:29:01,340 lawyers can do? I asked that specifically 549 00:29:01,350 --> 00:29:04,900 because the audience for this podcast is really those early 550 00:29:04,910 --> 00:29:07,920 career professionals, people getting out of loss right now. 551 00:29:07,990 --> 00:29:10,080 What kind of value can they provide? 552 00:29:10,150 --> 00:29:13,840 And also, what do you think that that they can do to, you know, 553 00:29:13,850 --> 00:29:17,360 have meaningful connections through these events and maybe 554 00:29:17,370 --> 00:29:19,710 not just during the event leading to long run? 555 00:29:19,720 --> 00:29:24,690 So I think the thing the first, so we think about, I think also 556 00:29:24,700 --> 00:29:27,250 the reason one of our successful, our events are 557 00:29:27,260 --> 00:29:30,850 successful have their business is successful so far is trying 558 00:29:30,860 --> 00:29:32,990 to think about the end user and what they want. 559 00:29:33,120 --> 00:29:36,450 So the first step is what do we want from the content, right. 560 00:29:36,600 --> 00:29:38,980 And I've kind of talked a lot about our editorial take on 561 00:29:38,990 --> 00:29:41,380 things. So really our events are not 562 00:29:41,390 --> 00:29:44,650 really about technology. Our sponsors are technology 563 00:29:44,660 --> 00:29:47,880 companies, but we're producing content that folks are 564 00:29:47,940 --> 00:29:51,450 interested who are practitioners about this intersection of 565 00:29:51,460 --> 00:29:53,930 business and law and the business of law are interested 566 00:29:53,940 --> 00:29:58,980 in engaging with, right? And the adjunct stuff And the 567 00:29:58,990 --> 00:30:02,680 punch line is that you need tech to support you to help manage 568 00:30:02,690 --> 00:30:05,640 all of these elements of the story, which is always changing. 569 00:30:05,650 --> 00:30:09,680 So I think the content, getting your head around that concept of 570 00:30:09,750 --> 00:30:14,620 having a broader perspective of that where you fit in, in your 571 00:30:14,630 --> 00:30:18,880 function into what organizations need, which again goes back to 572 00:30:18,890 --> 00:30:21,700 that risk. So if I say a mindset is this is 573 00:30:21,710 --> 00:30:25,360 my skill set, this is what the world needs other skill set like 574 00:30:25,370 --> 00:30:31,650 that, how do I a I can do a lot of this stuff that I used to get 575 00:30:31,660 --> 00:30:34,170 paid or thought I was going to get paid to do, which is kind of 576 00:30:34,180 --> 00:30:36,650 boring anyways. So how can I make sure that that 577 00:30:36,660 --> 00:30:41,020 skill sets moving towards that, that fulcrum where the question 578 00:30:41,030 --> 00:30:44,130 of the value I'm adding might be defined in a different way or 579 00:30:44,140 --> 00:30:45,600 might be monetized in a different way. 580 00:30:45,610 --> 00:30:48,330 So that's like one piece of advice is to and to see it as 581 00:30:48,340 --> 00:30:50,350 exciting. So with my events, it's like 582 00:30:50,360 --> 00:30:52,990 look at the ecosystem, look at the opportunities. 583 00:30:53,080 --> 00:30:55,930 You know, the old way was to work in a law firm and you make 584 00:30:55,940 --> 00:30:59,410 partner and if you wanted more quiet life, you go hit theory, 585 00:30:59,420 --> 00:31:01,830 go work in house. Well, that's not the case 586 00:31:01,840 --> 00:31:04,370 anymore. It's a busy life anyway, either 587 00:31:04,380 --> 00:31:05,620 way. But there's lots of other 588 00:31:05,630 --> 00:31:07,750 opportunities. You can go work in a legal that 589 00:31:07,760 --> 00:31:11,170 company, you can work in an LSP, you can start your own kind of 590 00:31:11,180 --> 00:31:14,380 law firm. So I think don't be scared of 591 00:31:14,430 --> 00:31:19,620 the opportunities that you that may be in front of you and don't 592 00:31:19,630 --> 00:31:23,100 be scared of the fact that, OK, it may not look the same way as 593 00:31:23,110 --> 00:31:25,800 he thought it would. You can still, if you have that 594 00:31:25,810 --> 00:31:28,040 mindset, there's lots of opportunities that will come 595 00:31:28,050 --> 00:31:31,100 from this sort of significant error change. 596 00:31:31,150 --> 00:31:33,860 That's easier said than done, but I think that helps. 597 00:31:33,910 --> 00:31:36,860 So the networking, again, our events, specifically minded 598 00:31:36,870 --> 00:31:39,240 people, people have taken different career paths. 599 00:31:39,250 --> 00:31:41,060 People are thinking about things differently. 600 00:31:41,120 --> 00:31:44,520 And then of course, you know, with with us, it's we, we host 601 00:31:44,530 --> 00:31:47,340 sort of regular events all over the place that we have like DIN 602 00:31:47,350 --> 00:31:49,870 groups and obviously LinkedIn is a very powerful tool. 603 00:31:49,880 --> 00:31:51,560 We do a lot of virtual programming. 604 00:31:51,630 --> 00:31:55,400 So I think just keep up and also keep up with thinkers in the 605 00:31:55,410 --> 00:31:57,400 sector as well. Amazing. 606 00:31:57,410 --> 00:32:00,780 Well, I think that with that, that piece of advice to early 607 00:32:00,790 --> 00:32:05,480 career professionals, we, we segue into a really good ending 608 00:32:05,490 --> 00:32:08,900 to the podcast here today. If I may ask a, a final piece of 609 00:32:08,910 --> 00:32:12,860 advice then to, you know, law students, career professionals, 610 00:32:12,930 --> 00:32:15,700 or, you know, considering whether they should be, you 611 00:32:15,710 --> 00:32:18,520 know, attending these events, whether they should be there, 612 00:32:19,260 --> 00:32:21,640 even though they might feel like they don't have much to 613 00:32:21,650 --> 00:32:25,720 contribute because they are just kind of learning the trade and, 614 00:32:25,730 --> 00:32:28,740 and learning the professional. Now, what's your what's your 615 00:32:28,810 --> 00:32:32,240 final take on? That so the opportunity, 616 00:32:32,250 --> 00:32:35,260 especially in this sector like legal is everything's changing. 617 00:32:35,370 --> 00:32:38,840 So this whole notion of the apprenticeship model that they 618 00:32:38,850 --> 00:32:41,940 called is changing and nobody knows the answer where it's 619 00:32:41,950 --> 00:32:43,290 going. And I think they could say that 620 00:32:43,300 --> 00:32:45,430 for lots of different sectors, but we're talking about legal. 621 00:32:45,610 --> 00:32:48,960 So I could, I would say that you have an equal place at the table 622 00:32:48,970 --> 00:32:54,000 as a, you know, newly graduated young lawyer, lawyer to be that 623 00:32:54,010 --> 00:32:57,410 can help push the sector forward and bring creative ways of 624 00:32:57,420 --> 00:33:00,930 thinking about how it changes and what can change. 625 00:33:00,980 --> 00:33:04,390 I think that sort of it's become a much more flat structure in a 626 00:33:04,400 --> 00:33:07,460 sense of lots of good ideas, lots of good ideas and 627 00:33:07,470 --> 00:33:10,530 opportunities are out there. And I think experience counts, 628 00:33:10,660 --> 00:33:13,650 but I don't think not having experience really puts you at a 629 00:33:13,660 --> 00:33:15,430 limit. But if you don't jump into that 630 00:33:15,440 --> 00:33:18,380 pool, then I think you're really taking making the wrong 631 00:33:18,390 --> 00:33:20,290 decision. You've got to just go with it 632 00:33:20,300 --> 00:33:23,130 and see, you know, see, see where it takes you. 633 00:33:23,140 --> 00:33:26,340 So your your place at that table is just as equal and there's and 634 00:33:26,350 --> 00:33:29,490 I think that's exciting. Absolutely with this this 635 00:33:29,860 --> 00:33:32,930 honestly piece of encouragement we we get to the end of our 636 00:33:32,940 --> 00:33:35,560 today's episode. So I just wanted to thank you 637 00:33:35,570 --> 00:33:37,890 again for taking the time to be in the podcast today. 638 00:33:37,930 --> 00:33:40,520 Wanted to thank everybody who's tuning in and looking forward to 639 00:33:40,530 --> 00:33:41,940 seeing you all on the next episode. 640 00:33:42,010 --> 00:33:43,340 Thanks, Claudio. Thanks. 641 00:33:43,350 --> 00:33:44,060 Appreciate it.