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Welcome to Studying Law Around 
the World. 

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I'm Claudio Claus. 
In each episode, I talk with 

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lawyers, law students, and 
professors from different parts 

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of the world to talk about legal
education, careers, and what the

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profession looks like in real 
life. 

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We talk about the hard parts, 
the surprises, and the decisions

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that shaped their paths. 
Whether you're planning to study

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abroad, thinking about working 
in another legal system, or just

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curious about how law works 
around the world, this podcast 

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is for you. 
Today I have the opportunity to 

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host Hassan Mandevilla. 
He is a lawyer in Pakistan and 

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is also a member of the 
International Bar Association 

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and has been for quite a few 
years now, very active member. 

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We've been connected through the
IBA and I'm so excited to 

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interview him today for for this
episode. 

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Thank you so much for tagging 
along, Hassan. 

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Sure. 
Well, I think first of all, I 

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want to say that I'm just an 
ordinary guy other than being a 

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lawyer. 
I started my career in Pakistan.

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But I'll rewind a little bit. 
I left for boarding school to go

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to the UK, I'd say in 2004 and I
spent about 11 years in the UK 

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and that's from boarding school 
through law school, through the 

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Sisters qualification, doing a 
little bit of paralegal and then

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deciding to sort of make my way 
back to Pakistan to start local 

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law practice over here. 
I think that in itself from 

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going from a Pakistani high 
school to a very English style 

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environment. 
I went to Westminster school was

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already my first phase of 
adaptability, right? 

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Like I, you know, was I was 
given a, you know, we had our 

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assembly in Westminster Abbey, 
right. 

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So that that was quite a big 
change from what I was 

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experiencing over here. 
I think Fast forward there. 

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And that's exactly the point I'm
trying to make, right. 

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Adaptability to any kind of 
scenario is what really refines 

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and strengthens you as a lawyer 
coming back after 11 years, you 

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know, from a common law system 
that works to Pakistan, which is

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a common law system that you 
know, has issues with 

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enforcement and arguably doesn't
work right, And you are kind of 

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intrusted to make it work. 
It really speaks to the fact 

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that adaptability is what you 
need to kind of put into the 

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system to get the outcome out of
it. 

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So that's me in a nutshell. 
So that's awesome. 

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I'm very excited to hear a 
little more about, you know, 

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your practice, your story. 
I'm curious now you just 

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mentioned, you know, the, the, 
the training in the UK, the 

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adaptability points. 
And I'm curious here, looking 

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back at those early days. 
First of all, I'm curious, was 

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there anything specifically that
that made you decide should go 

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towards law? 
And it also, once you chose law,

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was there anything that made you
the side you're working king, 

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corporate work, regulation, the 
work you do nowadays? 

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You know, it's, it's 
interesting, right? 

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You always identify, at least in
the early parts of envisioning 

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what a lawyer is. 
You always identify it with 

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power circles because you watch 
those TV shows, you know, you 

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are whoever you're kind of going
to for advice is somebody who's 

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secure 20 years into their 
career, a partner at a firm or 

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someone that is kind of, you 
know, really at the top of its 

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game, right? 
And and you envision that for 

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yourself almost immediately. 
OK, so so that becomes 

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attractive in itself. 
And then when you, you're, 

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you're a little bit misled when 
you do the summer internship in 

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these schemes, because there are
week long of being in an office 

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that is probably better than the
circumstances that you're you're

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inhabiting in your apartment or,
or your home, you know, or 

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whatever it is. 
And I'm not, you know, not not 

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to downplay, obviously we're all
blessed. 

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But the point is, you know, 
these big city firms, it's it's 

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quite attractive. 
So, you know, that gets you into

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a little bit of excitement 
saying if I were to make it, 

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would it be like this? 
And I think that thought in 

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itself is enough, right? 
Like, because that's not what 

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your story is going to be. 
That's the thought that it 

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starts with, right? 
And thereafter you just kind of,

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you know, it's manifestation 
again, right? 

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I mean, this is people talk 
about manifestation. 

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But if you think big city firm, 
you may not get big or firm or 

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city, but you get one of these 
those 3 permutations, right? 

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I will say I will qualify the 
fact that I do come from a 

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family of lawyers. 
So there was a little bit of arm

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twisting, you know, maybe from 
birth. 

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But having said that, you know, 
I think that's where that's 

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where your dream starts and and 
and you find your way that 

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eventually. 
Amazing, very, very exciting 

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and, and I saw that where you're
working now, your firm has been 

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involved in in major 
transactions, including, you 

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know, landmark telecom deals. 
I'm curious, you know, behind 

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the scenes, how do you, you 
know, handle work at that scale?

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I know that you wake up very 
early to start with, but I'm 

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curious to know also, you know 
the those personal habits both 

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at work and at. 
Home, you know, I mean what you 

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were seeing on LinkedIn is is is
also very recent, right? 

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I, I came back to Pakistan to 
practice in 2000 and 13, I'd say

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after five years of practice, 
you know, I was like, OK, maybe 

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this makes a little bit of 
sense, but honestly speaking, I 

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don't think, you know, anyone 
knows what they're doing until 

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they're in a decade of 
practicing law. 

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It's, it's really, you know, the
staying power. 

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So I mean, habits aside, right? 
I, I just think for, for any 

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lawyer, it's longevity is, is a 
large part of your success. 

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And that brings you 
transactions, that brings you 

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credibility into the market, 
that brings you fun work as 

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well, right? 
Is, you know, rewind and, you 

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know, you're starting to do your
rent cases, you're doing your 

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powers of returning, you're 
doing your property documents. 

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And not to say that, you know, 
those are those revenue 

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generating practice areas, 
right? 

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Evolve into a cutting edge 
transactional disputes lawyer 

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you, I mean you need to be there
in the market needs to see you 

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slowly and surely making moves. 
Fantastic. 

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No, very, very interesting. 
And I also saw that alongside 

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your practice, you're very 
active, as I had mentioned, in 

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the International Bar 
Association. 

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So I'd love to hear a little bit
more about, you know, your 

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experience participating not 
only in the annual conferences, 

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but also, you know, in the, the 
committees, the sections. 

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So I'd love to hear, you know, a
little bit about, like, how your

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involvement with the bar has 
also changed the way you think 

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about law and even how you 
envisioned your own career. 

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You know, I think that's a 
that's a very interesting 

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question because being from 
Pakistan, like we are from a 

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jurisdiction that struggles with
relevance, right? 

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We're not an internationally 
developed the market like India,

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for example. 
So there are, you know, you're 

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fighting for the international 
work that comes in between firms

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because it it is scarce, right? 
The International Bar 

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Association. 
I would definitely off network, 

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which is 5000 plus firms. 
You could imagine the multiple 

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of lawyers that are coming and 
attending. 

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You really do develop the 
ability to contact anybody 

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worldwide for any kind of issue 
that this world, you know, may 

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be facing as far as law or any 
kind of commercial matter is 

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concerned. 
So it's it's really great. 

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You know, I remember going to 
the first annual conference in 

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Miami and seeing all those rooms
and not knowing how to navigate 

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and wondering why have I even 
come here? 

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But then Paris, you know, 
Mexico, I was on panels. 

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I Canada. 
Unfortunately, I couldn't make 

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it. 
I, I was scheduled to be on, on 

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some panels and I do webinars 
and, and the, and the, the 

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smaller community conferences 
all the time. 

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And you know, it's great. 
I made some weird friends. 

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No, that's awesome. 
I'm have you have you heard that

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as a, as somebody who's just 
getting acquainted with the 

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International Bar Association? 
So it's been very fun to hear 

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from members of it and thinking 
about, you know, your trajectory

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and all of that. 
I know many young, young lawyers

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or early career professionals 
might, you know, always be 

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thinking that they need a very 
like straight, narrow path that 

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leads to success. 
You talked about, you know, the 

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big firms and and all of those 
experiences, but I wanted to 

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hear a little bit about, you 
know, in in your experience, how

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those you know, early roles, 
internship and even, you know, 

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sharks stints end up shaping a 
career in the long term. 

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Well, I think everybody's path 
is different, right? 

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Like even if you've got the best
grades and the kind of 

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credentials to get into, let's 
say the top city firms, right? 

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It may not happen just because 
there's so much competition and 

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you know, markets are kind of 
downsizing worldwide, etc. 

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So what eventually ends up 
mattering is I think there are 

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certain push points, right? 
So by by internships, the 

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objective is not to kind of go 
to these firms and sit around 

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and get bored. 
The objective is to kind of meet

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those partners who you could 
potentially remain in touch with

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so that you could continue 
having those conversations 

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throughout your degree. 
And then subsequently so that 

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even if there is no availability
at the the firm that they are in

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or the firm that you internship 
at, there are conversations to 

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be made to kind of point you in 
a certain direction. 

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So networking, you know, people 
downplay networking at different

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points of their career, but I 
think the culmination of 

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networking, I mean, you can't 
start networking once you 

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practice for 10 years. 
You know, it has to be a natural

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progression all the way through.
I think in what, what I think 

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what students probably leave 
out. 

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And you know, I think all of us 
are partially to blame because 

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we're engineering student life 
is, is going to those law firm 

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networking events, you know, 
just putting yourself out there 

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so that, you know, you remain in
touch. 

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I mean, things were maybe a 
little bit different in our time

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because there was no WhatsApp 
and there was no kind of 

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immediate connectivity. 
But, you know, take advantage of

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the digital age, right? 
Like it's very easy for some 

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someone who's at the top of 
their career to take interest in

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you and say, well, give me a 
call and come and have a cup of 

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coffee with me, You know, So 
that's that's an important part 

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of kind of navigating your own 
path. 

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And then I think secondly, you 
may not end up in the kind of 

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practice area that you think you
will end up in. 

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You might not be a financial 
services lawyer, right? 

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But one thing's for sure, you 
know, you should try and get 

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noticed. 
I think what you know, what 

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you're doing with the podcast, I
mean, you obviously much more at

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senior. 
You're not you're not back in 

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the student game. 
But I'm just saying something 

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that is kind of pushing 
boundaries and something 

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different. 
You know, take maybe the pro 

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bono that that I do or 
something, you know, kind of 

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like what you do being part of 
something different is always a 

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more appealing conversation. 
You know, everybody talks about 

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the same law stuff, right? 
You need to make it a little bit

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distinct to get noticed. 
That's fantastic. 

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I really appreciate you sharing 
that. 

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And in your, in your current 
role as a partner at a law firm,

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why didn't you hear a little bit
about, you know what? 

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What skills do you value most in
junior lawyers that don't always

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show up on their resume? 
You know, I think it's so 

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interesting, right, because when
you get a resume in front of you

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and even when you're 
interviewing, right, it's just 

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there, the role that these 
colleagues and associates 

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develop into is so it's so much 
more than that interview and 

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that resume has to offer. 
You know, we just made one of 

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our colleagues our partner as 
well. 

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And this is the first. 
I mean, we're a small firm where

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niche firm. 
It's the first time that we've 

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kind of, you know, someone who's
been with us for a significant 

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period of time. 
We've made them partner. 

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We have a young team and I think
youth is, is, is is, is is quite

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appealing in the sense that 
those that are acquainted with 

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the digital age can really, you 
know, they create a bridge 

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between, let's say, the slightly
older generation and what's 

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happening now in the world, 
right? 

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Because clients are all adapting
by way of their, you know, large

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infrastructure and machinery. 
And, you know, even if you take 

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a multinational, they depend on 
their above country systems and 

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all of that. 
But I think it's important to 

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have like a young, vibrant, 
enthusiastic team so that they 

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can kind of connect law firms 
from a slightly older ages to 

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the new age to kind of adapt and
provide the service in a manner 

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that's required by clients 
today. 

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Very nice. 
Thank you for sharing that. 

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And to close today's episode, I 
wanted to ask you, is there, you

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know, some kind of advice that 
you give to young lawyers who 

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are trying to build a 
meaningful, sustainable career, 

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especially for those looking 
into international cross-border 

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work are really just to have a 
good, fulfilling career that 

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they will be able to, you know, 
enjoy and have these connections

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across the globe. 
Look, you're, you're gonna, 

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you're gonna encounter hundreds 
of failures, right? 

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Again, failures are not like, 
OK, like it's it's never the end

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of the world, right? 
So I think earlier on in, in, in

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one's career, you know, I mean, 
when I, when I would lose a case

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or not get the injunction that I
thought, you know, that I set 

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out to get my days would just be
full of darkness, right? 

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But I think my only advice is 
just chill. 

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It's OK and always do instead of
don't do OK, because I've seen, 

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and I've seen with myself as 
well, there have been 

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opportunities which, you know, 
out of some other commitment, a 

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worker otherwise or maybe out of
sheer laziness, right? 

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You just kind of pass them by. 
But when, when you, when you, 

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when you take those 
opportunities which you think 

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are, you know, kind of mediocre,
it's still a better outcome for 

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you. 
So always do instead of. 

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Don't do you know? 
I really appreciated Hassan. 

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Thank you so much for taking the
time to sharing some of your 

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thoughts here in the podcast. 
No, thank you very much. 

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This is another fun and you 
know, hopefully gonna get to do 

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much more together. 
Absolutely. 

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And thank you all for tuning in.