1 00:00:12,880 --> 00:00:14,890 Welcome to Studying Law Around the World. 2 00:00:15,020 --> 00:00:17,870 I'm Claudio Claus. In each episode, I talk with 3 00:00:17,880 --> 00:00:20,850 lawyers, law students, and professors from different parts 4 00:00:20,860 --> 00:00:24,730 of the world to talk about legal education, careers, and what the 5 00:00:24,740 --> 00:00:26,420 profession looks like in real life. 6 00:00:26,430 --> 00:00:29,470 We talk about the hard parts, the surprises, and the decisions 7 00:00:29,480 --> 00:00:32,270 that shaped their paths. Whether you're planning to study 8 00:00:32,280 --> 00:00:35,520 abroad, thinking about working in another legal system, or just 9 00:00:35,530 --> 00:00:39,650 curious about how law works around the world, this podcast 10 00:00:39,660 --> 00:00:45,950 is for you. So many of the guests on this 11 00:00:45,960 --> 00:00:49,250 podcast have talked about how important it is to have strong 12 00:00:49,260 --> 00:00:52,890 writing skills as a lawyer. It's true, written communication 13 00:00:52,940 --> 00:00:56,780 is essential in this profession, but it can also be one of the 14 00:00:56,790 --> 00:01:00,120 trickiest skills to master. If you find your writing feels a 15 00:01:00,130 --> 00:01:03,040 bit clunky, or you're getting a lot of edits on your work, or 16 00:01:03,050 --> 00:01:05,580 perhaps you're breaking into an English speaking jurisdiction 17 00:01:05,590 --> 00:01:08,900 for the first time, Grammatica International can help. 18 00:01:09,130 --> 00:01:11,980 I'm Rebecca Lockwood, the lawyer, mediator and educator 19 00:01:11,990 --> 00:01:15,200 behind Grammatica, and we help lawyers and law students to 20 00:01:15,210 --> 00:01:18,380 write more sharply, speak more clearly, and advance their 21 00:01:18,390 --> 00:01:21,320 careers with group training and one-on-one skills coaching 22 00:01:21,370 --> 00:01:23,380 designed just for legal professionals. 23 00:01:23,790 --> 00:01:26,480 I have worked with so many lawyers like you who are 24 00:01:26,490 --> 00:01:30,060 exceptionally smart, qualified and capable, but need a bit of 25 00:01:30,070 --> 00:01:32,720 guidance to stand out in a competitive legal market. 26 00:01:33,230 --> 00:01:35,600 And I get it myself, having lived and worked in five 27 00:01:35,610 --> 00:01:38,840 countries during my 17 years in law and education. 28 00:01:39,370 --> 00:01:41,500 Whether you're looking to sharpen your writing skills 29 00:01:41,510 --> 00:01:44,990 generally, refresh your CV, or draft an application for a law 30 00:01:45,000 --> 00:01:49,750 program, Grammatica can help. Visit gramatica.co to learn 31 00:01:49,760 --> 00:01:53,500 more. This episode of Stunning War 32 00:01:53,510 --> 00:01:57,480 Around the World is proudly sponsored by ITL Prep from imant 33 00:01:57,540 --> 00:02:01,410 Exam Prep, the comprehensive resource designed specifically 34 00:02:01,460 --> 00:02:04,570 for internationally trained lawyers preparing for DMCA 35 00:02:04,580 --> 00:02:07,110 exams. We understand that the Inca 36 00:02:07,120 --> 00:02:09,289 accreditation journey can feel overwhelming. 37 00:02:09,419 --> 00:02:12,890 You can face many obstacles getting to success, courses that 38 00:02:12,900 --> 00:02:17,050 cost too much, offer too little, or leave you more confused than 39 00:02:17,060 --> 00:02:19,650 when you started. 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Visit imans dot C today. 58 00:03:23,290 --> 00:03:30,100 That's emond and use promo code ITL 50 to claim your 50% 59 00:03:30,110 --> 00:03:33,080 discount on NCA exam preparation courses. 60 00:03:34,870 --> 00:03:37,920 Today I have the opportunity to interview Rebecca Lockwood, who 61 00:03:37,930 --> 00:03:40,600 is the founder of Gramatica International. 62 00:03:40,660 --> 00:03:43,760 You've heard his name in the podcast before, but you haven't 63 00:03:43,770 --> 00:03:47,020 heard about incredible career that Rebecca has built for 64 00:03:47,030 --> 00:03:49,860 herself. She has a career that spanned 65 00:03:49,870 --> 00:03:55,640 across multiple jurisdictions and since 2012 has been helping 66 00:03:55,650 --> 00:03:58,280 lawyers around the world should improve their legal writing and 67 00:03:58,290 --> 00:04:01,040 in many other settings. Thank you so much for joining us 68 00:04:01,050 --> 00:04:03,140 today, Rebecca. Thank you so much for having me, 69 00:04:03,150 --> 00:04:04,720 Claudia. Thank you so much. 70 00:04:04,790 --> 00:04:08,440 Just start podcast. I just wanted to ask you before 71 00:04:08,450 --> 00:04:11,220 we get into questions, for you to introduce yourself to your 72 00:04:11,230 --> 00:04:13,320 audience so they can get to know you a little better. 73 00:04:13,330 --> 00:04:16,570 Well, I mean, your intro was, was pretty on point. 74 00:04:17,290 --> 00:04:21,910 I, I'm a lawyer and mediator and educator and I've been working 75 00:04:22,050 --> 00:04:25,720 in law for about a decade in all of these various roles. 76 00:04:25,990 --> 00:04:29,080 And I was a teacher before that for a number of years. 77 00:04:29,090 --> 00:04:34,700 So I've sort of combined my education background and my law 78 00:04:34,710 --> 00:04:39,080 background into Grammatica and I continue to sort of practice in 79 00:04:39,090 --> 00:04:41,300 different areas alongside it as well. 80 00:04:41,370 --> 00:04:44,240 I'm a Canadian transplant in Australia. 81 00:04:44,250 --> 00:04:48,680 Now at the moment, I've bounced around quite a bit over the last 82 00:04:48,770 --> 00:04:52,820 well in my adult life. And I have, I've got 3 little 83 00:04:52,830 --> 00:04:55,980 little kids and I've got a very nomadic husband, which is part 84 00:04:55,990 --> 00:05:00,420 of the reason for that bouncing. And yeah, that's, I don't know, 85 00:05:00,490 --> 00:05:03,330 that's there's so much to say and I don't she doesn't. 86 00:05:03,340 --> 00:05:05,580 That's a mean and nutshell at the moment. 87 00:05:05,590 --> 00:05:07,560 Amazing. Well, I'll be talking about all 88 00:05:07,570 --> 00:05:11,670 those details now then. So I, I was reading your profile 89 00:05:11,680 --> 00:05:15,590 online to, to get ready for this podcast episode and I read a 90 00:05:15,600 --> 00:05:18,650 very, very interesting story that you've shared about a 91 00:05:18,660 --> 00:05:22,690 subway conversation that you had with Ukrainian lawyer and that 92 00:05:22,700 --> 00:05:26,010 that might have, you know, being one of the things that's parked 93 00:05:26,020 --> 00:05:28,110 you to start Grammatic International. 94 00:05:28,120 --> 00:05:30,650 So can you tell us a little bit about that experience? 95 00:05:31,020 --> 00:05:34,350 I'm definitely clouded out that that was the birth of 96 00:05:34,360 --> 00:05:37,010 Grammatica. That was, that was the catalyst, 97 00:05:37,020 --> 00:05:40,830 Absolutely. So I was, it was August 2012. 98 00:05:40,890 --> 00:05:45,770 I was on the train coming home from an evening out with friends 99 00:05:45,780 --> 00:05:47,870 or at work, I can't remember, but I was on the trained. 100 00:05:47,880 --> 00:05:50,290 It was, it was a summer evening and I just sat down beside this 101 00:05:50,300 --> 00:05:52,610 young man and we started chatting. 102 00:05:52,620 --> 00:05:55,630 And it turned out he was a lawyer from Ukraine and he was 103 00:05:55,880 --> 00:06:00,240 designed to break into the legal profession in Canada, in Toronto 104 00:06:00,250 --> 00:06:03,840 in particular. And he was a bit down about it. 105 00:06:03,850 --> 00:06:07,380 And he started telling me about the struggles he had, the 106 00:06:07,390 --> 00:06:10,280 challenges he was facing. A lot of it was cultural, like 107 00:06:10,290 --> 00:06:14,870 not having a community built in, like a JD student would have 108 00:06:14,880 --> 00:06:17,650 that where you establish that community over the course of 109 00:06:17,660 --> 00:06:19,420 three years of really intensive study. 110 00:06:19,630 --> 00:06:21,140 He was sort of trying to break in. 111 00:06:21,210 --> 00:06:22,840 He had already been practicing in Ukraine. 112 00:06:22,850 --> 00:06:27,080 He had, you know, he was wasn't a very senior lawyer back home, 113 00:06:27,090 --> 00:06:29,520 but he had practice experience under his belt. 114 00:06:29,530 --> 00:06:31,580 And he was coming to Canada and starting afresh. 115 00:06:31,650 --> 00:06:35,030 And he just found it really, really challenging to to to get 116 00:06:35,040 --> 00:06:36,660 in. A lot of Canadian employers 117 00:06:36,670 --> 00:06:39,720 wanted Canadian experience and he didn't have Canadian 118 00:06:39,730 --> 00:06:42,800 experience and no one would give him a chance to get his foot in 119 00:06:42,810 --> 00:06:44,620 the door. And it was just one of those 120 00:06:44,790 --> 00:06:47,390 recycle that that was the first time I'd heard it, but I've 121 00:06:47,400 --> 00:06:49,420 heard that very similar story since. 122 00:06:49,430 --> 00:06:51,700 And one of the other things that he talked about in that 123 00:06:51,710 --> 00:06:54,880 conversation was the challenges with language. 124 00:06:54,930 --> 00:06:58,500 So he was fluent in English, but he didn't realize what a steep 125 00:06:58,510 --> 00:07:03,900 learning curve it would be to work and study and practice law 126 00:07:03,970 --> 00:07:08,520 in Canada in English, like legal English was its own language. 127 00:07:08,710 --> 00:07:12,360 And it had a style, a structure and expectation and a certain 128 00:07:12,370 --> 00:07:16,040 nuance that he just didn't didn't have and didn't know he 129 00:07:16,110 --> 00:07:20,200 he was struggling to get his head around that skill on top of 130 00:07:20,470 --> 00:07:23,840 the other sort of just breaking into this new jurisdiction 131 00:07:23,850 --> 00:07:27,220 challenge. So this in August 2012, I 132 00:07:27,230 --> 00:07:30,550 personally was about to start my second year of law school. 133 00:07:30,640 --> 00:07:33,930 So I was still in law school myself, but exactly 1 year 134 00:07:33,940 --> 00:07:37,720 before that conversation, I had just left Spain where I had been 135 00:07:37,730 --> 00:07:41,210 teaching as an English teacher. I was working primarily with 136 00:07:41,220 --> 00:07:45,070 professional adults and preparing them in English for 137 00:07:45,080 --> 00:07:48,490 their specialty, whether it was dentistry or architecture or 138 00:07:48,500 --> 00:07:50,710 teaching, and taught a lot of teachers as well. 139 00:07:50,720 --> 00:07:54,990 And so I was like fresh on the heel of this career in language 140 00:07:55,000 --> 00:07:57,010 education. And as I was sitting there 141 00:07:57,020 --> 00:08:00,270 talking to this young man from Ukraine, of course, I was super 142 00:08:00,280 --> 00:08:03,410 interested as a law student and a future lawyer myself. 143 00:08:03,420 --> 00:08:07,170 I was also so sort of curious about his experience as a 144 00:08:07,180 --> 00:08:09,650 language teacher. And so we said our goodbyes, I 145 00:08:09,660 --> 00:08:12,690 got off the train. I just couldn't get that 146 00:08:12,760 --> 00:08:16,230 conversation out of my head. I was, you know, I was just 147 00:08:16,240 --> 00:08:17,810 thinking about it and thinking about it. 148 00:08:17,820 --> 00:08:21,230 And the thought that kept coming back to me was I, I could help 149 00:08:21,240 --> 00:08:23,890 him. Like now I have the skills, I 150 00:08:23,900 --> 00:08:27,530 could create a course for him in legal English like tomorrow and 151 00:08:27,540 --> 00:08:32,049 teach him next week to help him overcome that particular hurdle. 152 00:08:32,440 --> 00:08:36,090 Because I've been teaching English overseas for a number of 153 00:08:36,100 --> 00:08:37,679 years. And I had all of that kind of 154 00:08:38,100 --> 00:08:41,549 that material, that knowledge, that way of thinking already. 155 00:08:41,620 --> 00:08:45,090 And and not only that, I felt that what he talked about sort 156 00:08:45,100 --> 00:08:51,070 of needing a bridge into sort of the Canadian legal industry and 157 00:08:51,080 --> 00:08:54,650 profession and community. That was the idea of potentially 158 00:08:54,740 --> 00:08:59,060 myself being that bridge and helping people land softly with 159 00:08:59,070 --> 00:09:03,780 encouragement and support in a new country, in a new language, 160 00:09:03,830 --> 00:09:06,710 in a new, not new profession, but new jurisdiction. 161 00:09:06,930 --> 00:09:08,880 I was like, I would love to do that. 162 00:09:09,190 --> 00:09:12,440 And so my mind was sort of all over this at the moment. 163 00:09:12,450 --> 00:09:15,900 And I came home and within 24 hours, I had come up with this 164 00:09:15,910 --> 00:09:17,880 business idea. I had come up with the name 165 00:09:17,890 --> 00:09:20,110 Gramatica. I had done been doing research 166 00:09:20,120 --> 00:09:23,060 and there weren't really any legal English programs at the 167 00:09:23,070 --> 00:09:25,000 time. And within a week, I had the 168 00:09:25,010 --> 00:09:28,070 business set up and registered. And within a month, I had a logo 169 00:09:28,080 --> 00:09:29,760 on a website and like it was running. 170 00:09:29,770 --> 00:09:36,040 And I just knew that there was me like this was a little niche 171 00:09:36,050 --> 00:09:39,770 that I knew personally I could really give my all to and be 172 00:09:39,780 --> 00:09:42,750 really passionate about. And I would, I just bought the 173 00:09:42,760 --> 00:09:45,770 idea of working with lawyers from around the world was, was 174 00:09:46,060 --> 00:09:47,670 amazing. Like I just thought it was, that 175 00:09:47,680 --> 00:09:51,130 was so cool. And I, I didn't at the time know 176 00:09:51,220 --> 00:09:54,710 how or sort of when it would launch or evolve. 177 00:09:54,760 --> 00:09:56,890 And it has definitely evolved and it's gone in different 178 00:09:56,900 --> 00:10:00,950 places than I expected then. But that conversation with the 179 00:10:00,960 --> 00:10:04,530 Ukrainian lawyer was the, it was the birth of this idea. 180 00:10:04,540 --> 00:10:06,670 And it very quickly came together. 181 00:10:06,740 --> 00:10:08,480 I don't know. I had didn't keep in touch with 182 00:10:08,490 --> 00:10:10,230 him. I regret so much that I never, 183 00:10:10,240 --> 00:10:13,050 we never exchanged details because I would love to see 184 00:10:13,060 --> 00:10:15,610 where he is now and how his experience went. 185 00:10:15,710 --> 00:10:18,290 And just to say thank you as well for that conversation 186 00:10:18,300 --> 00:10:22,010 because he, he has led me in an, in a direction that he probably 187 00:10:22,020 --> 00:10:26,250 has absolutely no idea, like how powerful sharing his experience 188 00:10:26,260 --> 00:10:28,960 with me would be. So that that's a little bit of 189 00:10:28,970 --> 00:10:32,030 my origin story. And I'm happy to say I've spoken 190 00:10:32,040 --> 00:10:34,600 to a lot more and worked with a lot more lawyers in similar 191 00:10:34,610 --> 00:10:38,680 positions and hopefully help them land softly on their feet 192 00:10:38,690 --> 00:10:42,020 or just just help the transition a little bit because it's, it's 193 00:10:42,030 --> 00:10:43,080 a transition for. Sure. 194 00:10:43,130 --> 00:10:45,740 Amazing. And if I may ask you, since you 195 00:10:45,750 --> 00:10:49,360 know you've been over 10 years now in this position and in 196 00:10:49,370 --> 00:10:53,190 being entrepreneur in this area, are there a few specific gaps 197 00:10:53,200 --> 00:10:56,980 that you see more often when you look at legal education or when 198 00:10:56,990 --> 00:10:59,740 you look at people who are trained abroad? 199 00:10:59,790 --> 00:11:03,620 Yeah. So when I started out in 2012, I 200 00:11:03,630 --> 00:11:06,770 was thinking about grammatical and the services I could provide 201 00:11:06,820 --> 00:11:10,550 as legal English, sort of like a specialty, as an English as a 202 00:11:10,560 --> 00:11:13,630 second language program, the way that you might find business 203 00:11:13,640 --> 00:11:16,250 English out there. And there weren't that many 204 00:11:16,260 --> 00:11:18,940 legal English programs, certainly in Canada at the time. 205 00:11:18,950 --> 00:11:21,830 There's only one. In the Europe, there was a 206 00:11:21,840 --> 00:11:24,530 couple. In the US, there was a few and 207 00:11:24,540 --> 00:11:26,850 it's grown since then in the last decade. 208 00:11:26,900 --> 00:11:31,590 But Gramatica has also kind of evolved to be more legal writing 209 00:11:31,600 --> 00:11:36,200 and legal skills, not just legal English from the English as a 210 00:11:36,210 --> 00:11:39,160 second language point of view. Because I don't only work with 211 00:11:39,170 --> 00:11:42,700 internationally trained lawyers now, I work with lawyers, most, 212 00:11:42,750 --> 00:11:46,060 most of whom are kind of in the 1st 5 or 10 years of practice. 213 00:11:46,070 --> 00:11:48,580 Maybe they're entering a new jurisdiction from abroad or 214 00:11:48,590 --> 00:11:51,660 they're just starting out and just need a bit of help and they 215 00:11:51,670 --> 00:11:54,540 feel like this is an area where they could use some guidance and 216 00:11:54,550 --> 00:11:56,980 support. But what I found was that 217 00:11:56,990 --> 00:12:00,900 whether it was legal English language focus or legal writing 218 00:12:00,910 --> 00:12:04,680 skills focused, a lot of the programs that are offered are 219 00:12:05,230 --> 00:12:09,300 extended programs. They are part of institutional 220 00:12:09,370 --> 00:12:12,240 bigger institutions. It covers a certain number of 221 00:12:12,250 --> 00:12:14,260 months. It's been more of an investment 222 00:12:14,270 --> 00:12:18,070 of time and money, and it's often by academic. 223 00:12:18,140 --> 00:12:21,850 And one of the one of the goals I have with Grammatica in the 224 00:12:21,860 --> 00:12:24,590 courses that Ioffer and the services that Ioffer is that 225 00:12:24,600 --> 00:12:29,390 it's hyper practical so that you can sort of walk away with 226 00:12:29,440 --> 00:12:32,590 skills and tips and ideas that you can apply. 227 00:12:32,600 --> 00:12:35,190 Like immediately, like I want you to leave the workshop and go 228 00:12:35,200 --> 00:12:38,270 sit down, looking at your submission to court and say, OK, 229 00:12:38,320 --> 00:12:41,110 actually, I can I can rework this and I know how to rework 230 00:12:41,120 --> 00:12:44,130 this now. So the focus on the practical is 231 00:12:44,140 --> 00:12:48,510 one of the gaps and also delivering it in a kind of more 232 00:12:48,520 --> 00:12:52,590 bite size CPD like program. So you can do it. 233 00:12:52,600 --> 00:12:55,610 Maybe it's a workshop series or a one-on-one help or, you know, 234 00:12:55,620 --> 00:13:00,410 a single course, but to deliver it in sort of a tighter package 235 00:13:00,510 --> 00:13:04,670 rather than like a three credit course that's part of another 236 00:13:04,680 --> 00:13:07,870 program, which is, which is helpful and useful when it's 237 00:13:07,880 --> 00:13:09,610 part of a program. Like you need to do that. 238 00:13:09,620 --> 00:13:12,950 I teach those courses in other programs as well. 239 00:13:13,340 --> 00:13:16,950 But with dramatic in particular, it was like the idea was that I 240 00:13:16,960 --> 00:13:20,500 thought there needed to be a really factis focused legal 241 00:13:20,510 --> 00:13:24,240 writing force out there that didn't cost the earth, that 242 00:13:24,250 --> 00:13:27,150 didn't take up, you know, a whole year of your time. 243 00:13:27,600 --> 00:13:30,870 And you got really sort of individualized feedback that you 244 00:13:30,880 --> 00:13:34,610 could apply to your your work in practice, like the next day, as 245 00:13:34,620 --> 00:13:37,710 I said before. So, you know, it's, it's an 246 00:13:37,720 --> 00:13:41,890 evolving space and I think it's, it's one that a lot more lawyers 247 00:13:42,060 --> 00:13:45,840 and law schools and institutions are taking note of. 248 00:13:46,170 --> 00:13:48,500 When I started, there was, like I said, there was very little 249 00:13:48,510 --> 00:13:50,300 out there. And there's more out there now. 250 00:13:50,390 --> 00:13:53,680 And like Sealed, for example, is a program in Canada. 251 00:13:53,750 --> 00:13:56,560 And I think that was a great initiative by the NCA to 252 00:13:56,620 --> 00:14:00,780 introduce that because just just as a as a basis to make sure 253 00:14:00,790 --> 00:14:04,380 everyone was sort of working, everyone entering from abroad 254 00:14:04,390 --> 00:14:07,540 was working with a similar skill set or could sort of fill in 255 00:14:07,550 --> 00:14:08,980 some of the gaps in their skill set. 256 00:14:09,210 --> 00:14:13,580 But certainly, like CPET is still a program that's more 257 00:14:13,590 --> 00:14:17,300 uniform for wide audience. And what I'm trying to do in 258 00:14:17,310 --> 00:14:19,720 addition to sort of complimenting a program like 259 00:14:19,730 --> 00:14:23,060 CPID for lawyers coming to Canada or other jurisdictions, 260 00:14:23,070 --> 00:14:25,700 but Canada in particular, is to, yeah, awful that to the 261 00:14:25,710 --> 00:14:28,630 personalized touch and that really practical touch. 262 00:14:28,640 --> 00:14:31,950 And like, let's talk about what a factor should look like. 263 00:14:32,020 --> 00:14:36,210 Let's talk about how do we think about the judge and, and how do 264 00:14:36,220 --> 00:14:39,890 we read their decisions to understand their nuances and 265 00:14:39,900 --> 00:14:43,770 where they lean and how you can craft your argument to fit the 266 00:14:43,780 --> 00:14:45,200 reader. Not that you always know who the 267 00:14:45,210 --> 00:14:46,570 judge is going to be, but you know what I mean? 268 00:14:46,580 --> 00:14:50,350 Like it's a little bit more. We have the the flexibility to 269 00:14:50,400 --> 00:14:54,390 really work with material and people to figure out what they 270 00:14:54,400 --> 00:14:56,560 really need from a legal writing course. 271 00:14:56,570 --> 00:14:58,410 Fantastic. No, I can see that there is a 272 00:14:58,420 --> 00:15:01,590 very different approaches that can be suited to each person and 273 00:15:01,600 --> 00:15:04,610 and I really appreciate that. I feel like that just makes it 274 00:15:04,620 --> 00:15:07,560 even even more useful. But I'd love to hear a little 275 00:15:07,570 --> 00:15:11,280 more about your story as well. So for what I've read here, you 276 00:15:11,290 --> 00:15:15,560 studied all is good how article here in Canada even argued cases 277 00:15:15,570 --> 00:15:18,120 up to the Supreme Court. And I'd love to hear a little 278 00:15:18,130 --> 00:15:21,240 bit about this early legal practice of yours and and how 279 00:15:21,250 --> 00:15:25,240 that also influences your approach as an educator and as a 280 00:15:25,250 --> 00:15:27,300 mentor these days. Yeah, absolutely. 281 00:15:27,310 --> 00:15:32,500 My time as a refugee immigration lawyer was and is a sort of a 282 00:15:32,510 --> 00:15:36,510 key central tenet to my identity, professional and 283 00:15:36,520 --> 00:15:38,980 personal. I feel I'm, I really am an 284 00:15:38,990 --> 00:15:42,920 advocate at heart and it's an area that I hope to go back to 285 00:15:43,710 --> 00:15:46,610 down the road. I had an incredible articling 286 00:15:46,620 --> 00:15:48,820 experience. I kind of laugh about it, that 287 00:15:48,830 --> 00:15:50,740 it was like articling on steroids. 288 00:15:50,790 --> 00:15:54,600 I worked in an incredible firm with Barbara Ackman, who does a 289 00:15:54,610 --> 00:16:00,240 lot of test cases in the area of refugee and immigration law and 290 00:16:00,250 --> 00:16:03,340 works a lot with just promoting non citizen rights. 291 00:16:03,350 --> 00:16:07,740 And it's a cause for me that was very personal to my family 292 00:16:07,750 --> 00:16:11,580 background, my own story and my sort of moral intellectual 293 00:16:11,650 --> 00:16:14,980 interests as well. So working with Barb was just 294 00:16:14,990 --> 00:16:17,900 like astounding. We were at the Supreme Court 295 00:16:17,910 --> 00:16:19,420 with her. I sat second chair at the 296 00:16:19,430 --> 00:16:22,060 Supreme Court as an articling student before I even got called 297 00:16:22,070 --> 00:16:25,240 to the bar. And that was like absurd, but it 298 00:16:25,250 --> 00:16:27,720 was incredible. And we were at the we were at 299 00:16:27,730 --> 00:16:30,980 all different levels of court and and I was working in the 300 00:16:30,990 --> 00:16:33,960 tribunal on my own and it just what it really did. 301 00:16:33,970 --> 00:16:38,010 I think those years of articling at such an intense level, but 302 00:16:38,020 --> 00:16:41,250 then also starting my own practice in association with 303 00:16:41,260 --> 00:16:44,610 Jacqueline and Associates and running that for a few years, 304 00:16:44,840 --> 00:16:48,630 was that I understood what advocacy looked like. 305 00:16:48,640 --> 00:16:53,130 And I understood the importance of written communication or 306 00:16:53,140 --> 00:16:58,010 written advocacy really, and what persuasive language looks 307 00:16:58,020 --> 00:16:59,830 like. Because all of everything that I 308 00:16:59,840 --> 00:17:04,450 was writing was for a court or a tribunal or a department. 309 00:17:04,780 --> 00:17:08,670 And I was always advocating for a particular position for a 310 00:17:08,680 --> 00:17:11,470 particular client. And I wanted the reader to agree 311 00:17:11,480 --> 00:17:15,089 with me to grant whatever, whatever their application was, 312 00:17:15,099 --> 00:17:16,890 I wanted them to grant it for my client. 313 00:17:16,960 --> 00:17:22,140 And so there was, I had to learn pretty quickly, pretty well how 314 00:17:22,150 --> 00:17:26,700 to write persuasively without exaggeration, but with clarity 315 00:17:26,710 --> 00:17:29,800 and reason to get the desired result. 316 00:17:29,890 --> 00:17:32,880 And, and you know, one of the things I just mentioned was 317 00:17:33,130 --> 00:17:36,780 understanding your audience was something that we, that was 318 00:17:36,790 --> 00:17:41,680 taught to me that I put into practice in a real way. 319 00:17:41,810 --> 00:17:46,000 And just really like honing the skills of persuasive legal 320 00:17:46,010 --> 00:17:49,900 writing was central to my learning and experience as as a 321 00:17:49,910 --> 00:17:52,360 lawyer. And I think that, you know, now 322 00:17:52,370 --> 00:17:54,810 I'm teaching those skills to others and I have been teaching 323 00:17:54,820 --> 00:17:57,300 them through Grammatica, through different law schools and 324 00:17:57,310 --> 00:18:00,600 institutions around the place. That practice experience was so 325 00:18:00,610 --> 00:18:04,610 fundamental to me. Now I feel that teaching well 326 00:18:04,620 --> 00:18:07,850 and teaching with the practice focus, obviously you need to 327 00:18:07,900 --> 00:18:10,790 keep your finger on the pulse of what's happening in the legal 328 00:18:10,800 --> 00:18:14,030 world in practice. And those few years of such 329 00:18:14,040 --> 00:18:19,900 intense, and this was, was so crucial to what I'm doing now, 330 00:18:19,910 --> 00:18:22,390 even if I'm not practicing in the same way that I was. 331 00:18:22,960 --> 00:18:24,870 That's so exciting, That's amazing. 332 00:18:25,300 --> 00:18:28,810 And, and going forward, I've, I've read here that you've lived 333 00:18:28,820 --> 00:18:32,790 in Spain, the UK, India, now in Australia. 334 00:18:32,860 --> 00:18:36,170 You mentioned that a little bit on your introduction, but I also 335 00:18:36,180 --> 00:18:38,480 would want to hear a little more about these international 336 00:18:38,490 --> 00:18:42,210 experiences and also how have they shaped your perspective on 337 00:18:42,220 --> 00:18:46,560 on law, on legal education. I'm sure that you also interact 338 00:18:46,570 --> 00:18:49,670 with URL for many countries beyond those in your 339 00:18:49,680 --> 00:18:51,750 professional activities. Definitely. 340 00:18:51,760 --> 00:18:55,750 So I think, I mean, I guess my immigration practice helped me 341 00:18:55,760 --> 00:19:00,010 understand the challenges of the literal immigration process. 342 00:19:00,020 --> 00:19:03,090 And being an immigrant and an internationally trained lawyer 343 00:19:03,100 --> 00:19:06,570 in different jurisdictions myself helps me understand those 344 00:19:06,580 --> 00:19:10,350 challenges very personally. So I understand it technically 345 00:19:10,360 --> 00:19:12,050 as an immigration law practitioner. 346 00:19:12,100 --> 00:19:15,270 I understand it personally as an individual who has gone through 347 00:19:15,280 --> 00:19:16,710 it. And one of your other guests, 348 00:19:16,720 --> 00:19:19,230 how do you have on your podcast talked about the emotional 349 00:19:19,240 --> 00:19:24,990 baggage of, you know, working or trying to break into a new 350 00:19:25,000 --> 00:19:27,300 jurisdiction as an internationally trained lawyer. 351 00:19:27,340 --> 00:19:30,370 Not only are you looking for a job and only are you looking to 352 00:19:30,380 --> 00:19:34,370 retrain and re skill and sort of get up to speed with this new 353 00:19:34,380 --> 00:19:36,670 jurisdiction and new practice area. 354 00:19:36,680 --> 00:19:40,530 Potentially you are also dealing with the emotional baggage of 355 00:19:40,680 --> 00:19:42,840 leaving your home country, leaving your family, starting 356 00:19:42,850 --> 00:19:45,490 afresh, perhaps bringing your dependence with you. 357 00:19:45,540 --> 00:19:47,990 And there's, there's a lot, there's a lot of emotion to 358 00:19:48,000 --> 00:19:50,240 that. It's not just pivoting to a 359 00:19:50,250 --> 00:19:54,010 different for different career or a different, you know, I mean 360 00:19:54,180 --> 00:19:57,650 a different job. There's a whole very holistic, 361 00:19:57,660 --> 00:20:03,630 complete experience to move country or jurisdiction and set 362 00:20:03,640 --> 00:20:06,310 up Shaw afresh and everything. You're fresh. 363 00:20:06,410 --> 00:20:09,980 I think being my international experience around the world has 364 00:20:09,990 --> 00:20:13,860 really helped me understand what so many of the people that I 365 00:20:13,870 --> 00:20:16,900 work with are going through from a really personal place. 366 00:20:17,250 --> 00:20:20,720 And I think that helps to build trust with my students because I 367 00:20:20,730 --> 00:20:23,300 know what they're going through because I'm I'm going through it 368 00:20:23,310 --> 00:20:25,500 or I have going through it in different ways in different 369 00:20:25,510 --> 00:20:27,670 places. And then on like the law and 370 00:20:27,680 --> 00:20:30,100 the, the writing sort of technical side of things. 371 00:20:30,170 --> 00:20:34,440 I also have seen very personally and very in depth how every 372 00:20:34,450 --> 00:20:37,700 jurisdiction does have its very particular style. 373 00:20:37,710 --> 00:20:40,670 So even, you know, English speaking comma, most systems 374 00:20:40,680 --> 00:20:43,740 like the US and Australia and Canada are not US, UK and 375 00:20:43,750 --> 00:20:46,900 Australia and Canada, even though they are all sort of 376 00:20:46,910 --> 00:20:51,100 based on the British system and they have very similar common 377 00:20:51,110 --> 00:20:54,470 law systems. They're, they have different 378 00:20:54,480 --> 00:20:58,670 small, tiny nuances in the way that they, whether it's the way 379 00:20:58,680 --> 00:21:02,370 that you draft an essay for law school or the way that you 380 00:21:02,380 --> 00:21:04,300 network there. There's different, there's a 381 00:21:04,310 --> 00:21:06,310 different style, but culture is different. 382 00:21:06,380 --> 00:21:08,880 And so being attentive to that and being exposed to that has 383 00:21:08,890 --> 00:21:12,010 really beneficial when it comes to me teaching those things, 384 00:21:12,260 --> 00:21:15,430 whether I'm working with students moving to Canada or 385 00:21:15,740 --> 00:21:19,570 lawyers here in Australia, where I am, I can kind of, I have, I 386 00:21:19,580 --> 00:21:22,310 have had to adapt to all these different styles myself. 387 00:21:22,380 --> 00:21:26,830 And so I'm better equipped to teach that how to adapt from, 388 00:21:26,840 --> 00:21:28,250 from a writing perspective as well. 389 00:21:28,300 --> 00:21:32,370 Some, some jurisdictions like Spain and India have, it's not 390 00:21:32,380 --> 00:21:35,340 just a small cultural nuance, it's, it's a very, I mean, 391 00:21:35,350 --> 00:21:39,020 obviously Spain and Canada have totally different language 392 00:21:39,030 --> 00:21:42,740 systems, but the style of legal writing, for example, in Spain 393 00:21:42,750 --> 00:21:47,500 and India, it's almost literary long prose in legal writing is 394 00:21:47,510 --> 00:21:50,260 the standard and the norm. And that's how you should write 395 00:21:50,570 --> 00:21:54,060 in those jurisdictions. Whereas in Canada and Australia 396 00:21:54,070 --> 00:21:57,670 and the UK, there's more of a shift towards plain English 397 00:21:57,730 --> 00:22:00,880 point first writing, simple, but clear and straightforward 398 00:22:00,890 --> 00:22:03,920 writing. And so when I work with lawyers 399 00:22:03,930 --> 00:22:06,510 from jurisdictions like that, you say, but that's, you know, 400 00:22:06,570 --> 00:22:09,300 why Rebecca, how can you tell me that I should simplify? 401 00:22:09,310 --> 00:22:12,570 Like this is I have a complex idea and therefore I need to use 402 00:22:12,580 --> 00:22:15,960 really complex language and sort of understanding what that looks 403 00:22:15,970 --> 00:22:18,370 like. Because I've worked in those 404 00:22:18,380 --> 00:22:22,240 different countries myself, Not all of them, but you know, I've 405 00:22:22,250 --> 00:22:25,530 worked in other countries where I know what the style is and how 406 00:22:25,540 --> 00:22:27,930 different it can be. Again, it's easier to teach 407 00:22:27,940 --> 00:22:31,230 because I know that they're starting point or I know the gap 408 00:22:31,240 --> 00:22:34,290 between where they're coming from, what's the norm for them 409 00:22:34,350 --> 00:22:39,050 and where we're trying to get to in their new jurisdiction in 410 00:22:39,100 --> 00:22:42,940 English. That's been hugely beneficial to 411 00:22:42,950 --> 00:22:45,130 me. No, I know all of these. 412 00:22:45,480 --> 00:22:48,110 I know both sides, whatever side that is. 413 00:22:48,380 --> 00:22:51,990 I've been lucky enough and privileged enough to, to, to 414 00:22:52,000 --> 00:22:55,830 live in different places and be exposed to different areas of, 415 00:22:55,900 --> 00:22:58,490 of law or different jurisdictions of law. 416 00:22:58,500 --> 00:23:02,080 And what that takes really to to adapt and succeed. 417 00:23:02,650 --> 00:23:05,790 Invite it's, it's been great to learn a little more about your 418 00:23:05,800 --> 00:23:08,660 experience and all that you've done through your career. 419 00:23:08,670 --> 00:23:11,520 I found here that beyond, you know, teaching at your own 420 00:23:11,530 --> 00:23:16,040 company, you also nowadays teach at Osgood Hall and you've served 421 00:23:16,050 --> 00:23:19,960 as a senior lecturer and program manager at the University of Law 422 00:23:19,970 --> 00:23:23,440 in Manchester in the UK. I also would like to hear a 423 00:23:23,450 --> 00:23:27,660 little bit about that experience and and maybe what lessons did 424 00:23:27,670 --> 00:23:30,320 you learn from leading in that academic setting? 425 00:23:30,450 --> 00:23:34,720 So my, my experience in sort of higher legal education has been 426 00:23:34,730 --> 00:23:38,020 ongoing since since I really got out the gate of law school 427 00:23:38,030 --> 00:23:39,800 since. So I've been working as an 428 00:23:39,810 --> 00:23:42,700 adjunct instructor at Osgood in the professional development 429 00:23:42,710 --> 00:23:46,150 program since 2014. And then that was just as an 430 00:23:46,160 --> 00:23:48,020 adjunct. I, I'm still doing that. 431 00:23:48,090 --> 00:23:52,020 I, I've all I've always taught there alongside whatever other 432 00:23:52,130 --> 00:23:56,060 jobs or places where I was working, which has been a 433 00:23:56,070 --> 00:23:59,660 fantastic sort of line of consistency and relationship to 434 00:23:59,670 --> 00:24:01,600 build with an institution like Osgood. 435 00:24:01,690 --> 00:24:05,980 And when I move to the UK and started working at the 436 00:24:05,990 --> 00:24:10,730 University of Long Manchester, I got the opportunity to teach and 437 00:24:10,740 --> 00:24:13,190 also work on the management side. 438 00:24:13,300 --> 00:24:18,250 Having that inner insider knowledge of how universities 439 00:24:18,320 --> 00:24:22,130 work and how law programs work, not just from the teaching 440 00:24:22,140 --> 00:24:25,230 perspective, but the the management perspective was 441 00:24:25,240 --> 00:24:27,780 really eye opening to me. And it's not, you know, 442 00:24:27,790 --> 00:24:29,790 something that a lot of people are exposed to. 443 00:24:29,800 --> 00:24:33,110 You sort of sit maybe will mean we've all been while students at 444 00:24:33,120 --> 00:24:36,070 some stage for lawyers. So we know very well what it's 445 00:24:36,080 --> 00:24:39,130 like to be on that side. But what really stood out to me 446 00:24:39,140 --> 00:24:43,490 and what I wish I had known as a student myself was that when 447 00:24:43,500 --> 00:24:46,850 you're studying in a law program, it's often very 448 00:24:47,000 --> 00:24:50,990 competitive, very intensive. The pressure can be high, 449 00:24:51,040 --> 00:24:53,620 whether it's your own pressure that you putting on yourself or 450 00:24:53,630 --> 00:24:57,410 the pressure you feel from family or you, the pressure you 451 00:24:57,420 --> 00:25:00,890 feel from your peers, just just sort of diagnosis. 452 00:25:01,320 --> 00:25:05,320 It is it's an intense process. And we often feel like we're 453 00:25:05,330 --> 00:25:07,690 struggling or we're not performing the way that we want 454 00:25:07,700 --> 00:25:09,610 to. There's some shame in that. 455 00:25:09,620 --> 00:25:13,210 And there's there's stigma around, you know, not doing as 456 00:25:13,220 --> 00:25:16,290 well as you hope to be doing, especially in law. 457 00:25:16,380 --> 00:25:19,870 And sometimes I think law students in particular struggle 458 00:25:19,880 --> 00:25:23,030 in silence and isolation because they don't want to come forward 459 00:25:23,040 --> 00:25:25,790 and, and talk about it. And one of the things that I 460 00:25:25,800 --> 00:25:31,290 learned working as a manager in different programs in the UK was 461 00:25:31,300 --> 00:25:34,610 that the universities actually don't want anyone to fail. 462 00:25:34,680 --> 00:25:40,040 They and they have the resources to help and support so much and 463 00:25:40,050 --> 00:25:43,130 there's so many different ways that that can happen. 464 00:25:43,340 --> 00:25:45,130 There's actually quite a lot of flexibility. 465 00:25:45,340 --> 00:25:49,370 But we don't, you know, but perhaps as a student, you don't 466 00:25:49,380 --> 00:25:52,050 know that you don't know what those options are. 467 00:25:52,180 --> 00:25:55,580 And I wish I had been able, I wish I had that insight at that 468 00:25:55,590 --> 00:25:59,590 when I was a law student to go and speak to sort of the 469 00:25:59,600 --> 00:26:01,970 management team, whether it was the student support office or 470 00:26:01,980 --> 00:26:06,450 the careers office or the this Dean of students to say, this is 471 00:26:06,460 --> 00:26:09,090 not, this doesn't feel like the way that I expected it to feel. 472 00:26:09,100 --> 00:26:11,130 I don't feel like I'm performing the way I should. 473 00:26:11,180 --> 00:26:14,070 What can we do about it? And so I was privileged to be 474 00:26:14,080 --> 00:26:19,300 able to be in that position in the UK to say to students, hey, 475 00:26:19,310 --> 00:26:21,750 you know what? And it looks like you're 476 00:26:21,760 --> 00:26:22,900 struggling with this on the nose. 477 00:26:22,910 --> 00:26:25,460 You're not coming to class or you. 478 00:26:26,430 --> 00:26:29,560 Emails for all the the stories you've shared and for the 479 00:26:29,570 --> 00:26:34,240 specific well, it's been so interesting to see lawyers speak 480 00:26:34,250 --> 00:26:37,980 at the the podcast and see you notice I'm getting at all so 10 481 00:26:37,990 --> 00:26:40,300 years from when you started. It's incredible. 482 00:26:40,310 --> 00:26:43,800 So with period and like you sometimes you have sorry. 483 00:26:47,380 --> 00:26:50,190 Could be benefiting from from their university, the one. 484 00:26:50,200 --> 00:26:53,030 About that, I can't wait myself. As an instructor, I always good 485 00:26:53,040 --> 00:26:56,080 thanks for now and you know, I can be able to say to students, 486 00:26:56,090 --> 00:26:58,260 you know, you should go and speak to the man it's about. 487 00:26:58,320 --> 00:27:00,860 What you just said. I think that there's maybe 488 00:27:00,870 --> 00:27:02,660 there's something that we're trying to, maybe there's an 489 00:27:02,670 --> 00:27:04,910 extra being the way of working this, or maybe you're in the 490 00:27:04,920 --> 00:27:07,290 wrong stream. Maybe this isn't the right focus 491 00:27:07,300 --> 00:27:09,010 for you. Maybe there's, there's this 492 00:27:09,020 --> 00:27:11,370 different program that would be a better fit and then you would 493 00:27:11,380 --> 00:27:14,450 flourish more than feel, you know, sort of constrained or 494 00:27:14,460 --> 00:27:16,910 stressed about it. And the other, the other sort of 495 00:27:16,920 --> 00:27:20,130 lesson that I have learned working at Manchester, which was 496 00:27:20,140 --> 00:27:23,190 different to my other teaching, was that I got to work with 497 00:27:23,200 --> 00:27:26,740 undergrads who were doing law for the for the first time. 498 00:27:26,750 --> 00:27:29,150 And in Canada, you know, thank you so much. 499 00:27:29,780 --> 00:27:32,290 You have to study a different undergrad and then move on to 500 00:27:32,300 --> 00:27:34,550 your JD afterwards. There's there's not really any 501 00:27:34,560 --> 00:27:37,330 option to study law right out of high schools. 502 00:27:37,660 --> 00:27:40,530 But at Manchester, you know, I was working with mostly first 503 00:27:40,540 --> 00:27:42,270 years. I was teaching them introductory 504 00:27:42,280 --> 00:27:46,010 courses, legal writing, six constitutional law, public law. 505 00:27:46,160 --> 00:27:52,440 18 is young, 18 is so young. And it was so refreshing to work 506 00:27:52,450 --> 00:27:57,600 with this group of, of people hung adults who were so fresh 507 00:27:57,610 --> 00:28:00,740 and new in the world. And we're entering law for the 508 00:28:00,750 --> 00:28:03,580 first time, like completely, I mean, not completely fresh. 509 00:28:03,590 --> 00:28:07,220 Obviously they've, they've had lots of life experiences and 510 00:28:07,230 --> 00:28:09,820 they have ideas about how things should go. 511 00:28:10,050 --> 00:28:14,380 But the skills of, of being lawyer or the actual substantive 512 00:28:14,390 --> 00:28:17,200 law, it was like the first time they were really exposed to 513 00:28:17,210 --> 00:28:20,120 that. And that was so much fun 514 00:28:20,210 --> 00:28:22,080 actually. And it really was a breath of 515 00:28:22,090 --> 00:28:26,060 fresh air and made me stop and question like, what am I taking 516 00:28:26,070 --> 00:28:30,390 for granted here as a lawyer myself with not just practice 517 00:28:30,400 --> 00:28:33,940 years, but like age years under my belt in terms in contrast to 518 00:28:33,950 --> 00:28:36,260 the, the young students that I was teaching. 519 00:28:36,690 --> 00:28:39,550 It was also so different, you know, had been teaching adults 520 00:28:39,560 --> 00:28:43,360 who were lawyers in different jurisdictions and they were 521 00:28:43,370 --> 00:28:47,230 coming with years of experience and practice and in life. 522 00:28:47,240 --> 00:28:51,260 And so then from like, not that they were even that much older 523 00:28:51,270 --> 00:28:54,870 than maybe they were sort of 26 further 18, but they had enough 524 00:28:54,880 --> 00:28:57,810 experience or had enough study to already come in. 525 00:28:57,860 --> 00:29:00,810 And we almost had to sometime working with international 526 00:29:00,820 --> 00:29:03,410 trained lawyers. You have to break open the mold, 527 00:29:03,560 --> 00:29:07,030 make students think like completely differently to what 528 00:29:07,040 --> 00:29:11,330 they know in order to learn the new style or the new skill and 529 00:29:11,340 --> 00:29:13,750 adapt to the expectation of the new jurisdiction. 530 00:29:13,940 --> 00:29:17,990 Whereas teaching in undergrad wasn't, it didn't require that 531 00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:19,420 sort of breaking out of the mold. 532 00:29:19,640 --> 00:29:21,500 It was a totally fresh experience. 533 00:29:21,920 --> 00:29:23,720 That was a lot of fun. That was a lot of fun. 534 00:29:23,810 --> 00:29:28,260 And it it made me absolutely a better teacher and probably a 535 00:29:28,270 --> 00:29:31,260 lawyer as well. Yeah, So great question, Claudia 536 00:29:31,270 --> 00:29:32,920 there. I've done a lot of things. 537 00:29:32,930 --> 00:29:35,900 I've pivoted quite a quite a few times, but it it all sort of 538 00:29:35,910 --> 00:29:39,150 comes back to different ways to communicate in different ways to 539 00:29:39,160 --> 00:29:40,720 help people. I think. 540 00:29:40,810 --> 00:29:44,090 And I think overall, I mean, there's so many pieces of advice 541 00:29:44,100 --> 00:29:46,230 and you know, where to begin. I think the first piece of and 542 00:29:46,240 --> 00:29:48,800 probably the most important piece of advice to lawyers, 543 00:29:48,810 --> 00:29:50,600 whether you're an internationally trained lawyer 544 00:29:50,610 --> 00:29:54,060 jumping jurisdictions or a lawyer in the same jurisdiction. 545 00:29:54,070 --> 00:29:57,000 But starting out and in the early years of your career, I 546 00:29:57,010 --> 00:30:02,280 think being open to new opportunities to grow to big 547 00:30:02,290 --> 00:30:07,550 leaps across ponds, but being open is so helpful because there 548 00:30:07,560 --> 00:30:12,250 is no on linear path as a lawyer, you, you know, 549 00:30:12,320 --> 00:30:16,210 practicing law in a big firm and making partner is 1 track. 550 00:30:16,220 --> 00:30:19,180 And that's the track we often hear most about, but it's not 551 00:30:19,190 --> 00:30:22,130 the only one. And you can, you can move areas, 552 00:30:22,140 --> 00:30:25,690 you can move jurisdictions, you can move in and out of law. 553 00:30:25,920 --> 00:30:28,670 And that's one of the great things about having a law degree 554 00:30:28,680 --> 00:30:32,520 is that it is actually mobile and it, it does transfer. 555 00:30:32,580 --> 00:30:34,730 It is so useful. One of the best piece of advice 556 00:30:34,740 --> 00:30:38,420 that I got when I was in my, my first year of my JD program. 557 00:30:38,430 --> 00:30:41,870 And I was not happy. I was not enjoying it. 558 00:30:42,280 --> 00:30:45,550 And a couple of senior lawyers I sat down with said to me, 559 00:30:45,660 --> 00:30:49,420 Rebecca, if you can survive the JD, just do it, make it through 560 00:30:49,430 --> 00:30:53,780 the program and then do whatever you want with that, that degree, 561 00:30:53,930 --> 00:30:57,860 because the doors will open and you just will be able to choose 562 00:30:57,870 --> 00:30:59,410 which one you want to walk through. 563 00:30:59,470 --> 00:31:04,230 And so that being open is, has obviously I've been very open to 564 00:31:04,240 --> 00:31:06,740 different opportunities in different places over the last 565 00:31:06,750 --> 00:31:09,680 like 10 years, But it, it's, it's, it's brought a lot of 566 00:31:09,770 --> 00:31:12,600 great rewards. And I think the other piece of 567 00:31:12,610 --> 00:31:18,720 advice was to, as you're open, also be humble and embrace 568 00:31:18,730 --> 00:31:23,360 humility because I think that when we think that we are good 569 00:31:23,370 --> 00:31:27,460 and great and we we don't have any more room to grow, then we 570 00:31:27,470 --> 00:31:29,600 get stuck. And no matter how good of a 571 00:31:29,610 --> 00:31:32,260 lawyer you are, no matter how many years of experience you 572 00:31:32,270 --> 00:31:34,930 have already, especially, especially especially if you are 573 00:31:34,940 --> 00:31:38,160 moving countries or jurisdictions, there's always 574 00:31:38,170 --> 00:31:42,160 something new to learn and there's always a skill to expand 575 00:31:42,170 --> 00:31:44,360 upon. As great as we may be, we can 576 00:31:44,370 --> 00:31:46,880 always be better and we can always grow. 577 00:31:47,210 --> 00:31:49,760 And I think that sometimes we have to eat a little bit of 578 00:31:49,770 --> 00:31:54,060 humble pie in order to find that growth because that is really 579 00:31:54,070 --> 00:31:57,890 when, you know, the walls come down, you're actually embracing 580 00:31:57,900 --> 00:32:00,600 the new material or the new challenges in front of you. 581 00:32:00,690 --> 00:32:05,660 And you're, you're not stuck behind ego and, and maybe fear 582 00:32:05,730 --> 00:32:08,180 as well. So embracing the humility, 583 00:32:08,190 --> 00:32:10,900 embracing the fear. I think it's also a really big 584 00:32:10,910 --> 00:32:14,540 piece of advice that I would give to other lawyers on the 585 00:32:14,550 --> 00:32:17,420 beginning of their journey. Thank you so much for having me. 586 00:32:17,430 --> 00:32:20,640 And I also can't wait to see where you will be in 10 years 587 00:32:20,690 --> 00:32:23,500 because already you have done so much. 588 00:32:23,590 --> 00:32:26,460 And I've been, I have been following along not for very 589 00:32:26,470 --> 00:32:28,930 long, but the last like 6 months, I've been following 590 00:32:28,940 --> 00:32:32,020 along very keenly and very with much excitement. 591 00:32:32,030 --> 00:32:35,420 And so I can't wait to see where you are in 10, in 10 years 592 00:32:35,430 --> 00:32:36,580 either. Please keep in touch.