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Hello everybody, Welcome to 
another episode of studying law 

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around the world. 
Today we have the opportunity to

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listen to Tony outbreak. 
Tony will share with us a few 

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different things. 
He he's had an awesome career. 

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He's been a lawyer for many 
years in the States, now living 

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up here in Toronto and has been 
building an awesome business of,

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you know, social media a 
contender. 

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And I'll be so excited to hear a
little more about that for for 

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us to start our conversation 
today. 

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Tony, could you tell us a little
more about your story and also 

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about the work you do these 
days? 

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Sure. 
Thanks for the invitation to 

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join you, Claudio. 
It's a pleasure to meet you and 

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my my journey. 
I describe as being a lawyer who

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accidentally got good at 
LinkedIn, which is how I've come

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to be building the the Business 
contender, my agency that is 

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focused on LinkedIn ghost 
writing for lawyers. 

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I've been working on that 
business since 2022. 

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Before that I practiced law, as 
you mentioned in the US, mostly 

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in insurance. 
Defence firms are working from 

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the the town of St. 
Louis, MO, practice mainly in 

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Illinois and Missouri. 
There on opposite sides of the 

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Mississippi River. 
There's a very long story 

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between how I came to be doing 
what I'm doing now up here in 

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Canada versus what I spent in my
time in practice doing. 

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That involves I doing the whole 
life I In 2013 I quit my job, 

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sold all my stuff, took a 
backpack and a one way ticket to

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Bangkok thinking I was going to 
spend maybe a year traveling and

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trying to figure out what I 
wanted to do with my life. 

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One one thing led to another. 
I fell into doing contract work 

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as an attorney while I was 
travelling. 

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The one year turned into more 
like 4 years between full-time 

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roles where I was like trying to
start businesses doing a bunch 

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of traveling. 
Met the woman who had become my 

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wife while traveling in India in
2015. 

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She is Canadian, which is how 
I've come to to be living up 

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here and in my path has been 
unpredictable and far from 

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linear. 
But let's say that's the the 

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short version, Claudio. 
I'll try not to go down the 

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rabbit hole any further. 
Well, that, that sounds, that 

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sounds pretty interesting. 
I love to hear that and hearing 

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about your story, hearing a 
little bit about all of that, 

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something that I noticed when I 
was looking up your information,

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your background a little bit. 
I saw that your, you, you got 

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out of university before law 
school, you studied English and 

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I'd love to hear a little bit 
about that. 

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It was law school always 
something that was on your mind.

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Did you kind of go into 
undergrad knowing about it, 

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decided through that And and 
then also into that question, if

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I may ask, does that background 
also help you in shapes some of 

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the way you think and you work 
and you know, storytelling and 

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brand and all that, all that 
work you do today? 

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Good questions. 
So I grew up in a house where my

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parents emphasized education. 
My mother was a college 

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professor, taught marketing for 
25 years, and my dad had an MBA.

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He was an engineer who also ran 
businesses for the vast majority

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of his career. 
And in our house, the question 

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wasn't whether you would go to 
college. 

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The question was what graduate 
degree or professional degree 

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are you going to end up with? 
And so I have one sister is an 

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MBA. 
I have another sister who is in 

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a CPA. 
And then I'm the lawyer in the 

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family. 
We didn't have anybody who was 

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going to become a doctor. 
But I, I gravitated toward law 

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because I've always liked 
writing. 

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And obviously writing is an 
integral skill for the practice 

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of law. 
And I like talking. 

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I like arguing. 
So, you know, it was that sort 

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of thinking that OK, yeah. 
And I don't like blood. 

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And so no medical school. 
So law school has that natural 

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extension for me, although I now
is given the way my my career is

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unfolded in this rather unusual 
way, I now tend to think I maybe

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shouldn't have gone to law 
school in the 1st place. 

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I think that I decided to go to 
law school for the wrong 

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reasons. 
I think when I decided basically

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coming out of undergraduate in 
the US, the way I think about it

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now, the 2020 hindsight and all 
that, I was scared of making 

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mistakes. 
And law school for me seemed 

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like a safe path, a path toward 
success, financial security, a 

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good career. 
And while my time in law has 

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been my time practicing, I, I 
feel like I had a, a really good

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quality of life while I was 
practicing. 

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And obviously I wouldn't be 
doing what I'm doing today were 

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it not for my background in law.
The way I think about it, yeah, 

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I, I wish I would have gone for 
the right reasons. 

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But now I think that maybe to 
your point about me studying 

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English, I always wanted to be a
writer. 

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And so, you know, it's 
interesting that now a company 

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that I started, you know, the 
age of 39, you know, now I am, 

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I'm indeed making my living 
writing. 

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And I now think I may have been 
better off just starting 

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companies and writing from the 
time I was 21 years old. 

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Possibly. 
Not to dissuade anybody from 

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going to law school. 
That's amazing. 

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You know, some of the 
conversations had in the past, 

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people told me something that 
was interesting too, along the 

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lines of I, I went to law school
with this, this was my reasoning

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going in, but I stayed because 
of XYZ. 

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So I really like how, you know, 
more and more I feel like 

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overall people are just becoming
more aware of these things, 

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right? 
When we think about, you know, a

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few like our grandparents and so
forth, or, or for the most of 

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us, there wasn't much of an 
opportunity to think too much 

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through purpose, careers and all
of that. 

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It was basically like people 
were retiring the same job that 

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they started, right? 
They were in the same company, 

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much, much different than the 
world we have today. 

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And you know, after all, you 
know, you don't become the, the 

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Yoda of LinkedIn lawyering by, 
you know, not being a lawyer. 

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So I'm I'm so glad you went 
through the the rough Rd. 

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Yeah, it's, it has. 
I think you're right. 

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It's we are in a very different 
situation. 1, how old are you? 

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You're still in your 20. 
Yeah, yeah, that's right, 27, 

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yeah. 
Yeah, so I've got 15 years on 

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you. 
So we kind of bookend that 

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millennial generation maybe, but
it's it's a very different world

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than it was when our 
grandparents or even our parents

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were out there where I think we 
need to to be more adaptable. 

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And it's pace of change only 
appears to be accelerating. 

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So, yeah, that that idea that 
we're going to plant ourselves 

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in in a law firm maybe and then 
just work our way up. 

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And, you know, maybe 30 years 
later we retire, maybe we 

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switched law firms once or twice
that that path to professional 

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success seems to be getting 
harder and harder to realized. 

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Something I spent a lot of my 
time thinking about and writing 

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about it and talking to people 
about is how do we navigate this

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changing landscape in a way that
we could still find success, 

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whatever that means for us, and 
hopefully feel good about it 

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along the way. 
Amazing not not to go too far 

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from this topic. 
When you look back in your 

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career is is there one decision 
that you made that helped you to

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build, you know, a more 
meaningful and and creative path

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for yourself? 
Was it really the the day you 

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decided to leave law and go into
traveling and other things? 

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Or do you feel like there was a 
few other little things that you

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started way before that? 
Great question. 

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Well, so I I say that I've 
torched my legal career twice 

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now and 2013 and then again in 
2021 when I left the practice. 

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It would be a year between when 
I did that in 2021 and when I 

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started Contender. 
And at the time that I left the 

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practice, it still would not 
have occurred to me that writing

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LinkedIn post was a way to make 
money, much less build a 

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sustainable business. 
But if I go back to what really 

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changed things to your point, 
there was a time 2012, way back 

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when, where at that time I was, 
I spent the first few years of 

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my career largely traveling 
around the US taking depositions

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and one specific kind of 
personal injury case. 

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And I had the chance to go to 
went to 38 different states over

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the course of 2 1/2 years, 
basically lived on the road, 

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which maybe prepared me for a 
stint traveling around the 

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world. 
I was also doing a lot of 

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reading at that time, and one of
the things that I ran across 

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back then that has stuck with me
is a line from the author Ray 

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Bradbury that says we must 
continually be jumping off 

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cliffs and growing wings on the 
way down. 

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And there's another line from 
the poet Mary Oliver. 

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Just tell me what it is. 
What is it you plan to do with 

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your one wild and precious life?
And it's on Marine stuff like 

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that that was getting lodged 
between my ears and eventually 

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kind of sent me over an edge of 
saying, I, I don't know what I'm

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supposed to be doing with this 
life, but let's go try something

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different to see if we can 
figure something out. 

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And one of the things that I've 
learned, I mean, at that time, I

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still had six figures of debt, 
which I've since we've wiped all

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that away, we're square with the
folks in the US government. 

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And I really didn't know what I 
wanted to, to do when I grew up.

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So that decision I mentioned 
about going to law school as the

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safe path of wanting that 
predictable, say, less risky 

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path to success. 
The thing that I've I've learned

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and I keep relearning is that 
awesome things tend to go better

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for me when I'm taking 
calculated risks. 

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Let's say that it's it's a 
matter of recognizing and again 

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again that the that the life 
that I want, the future I want 

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for myself, for my family, it 
probably is waiting on the other

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side of a difficult decision or 
something that makes me 

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uncomfortable. 
That's amazing. 

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Feel like we've got the chance, 
you know, hear a little bit 

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about your story, dive a little 
bit into, you know, couriers 

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purpose and how you've found 
that for yourself and you feel. 

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Let me divert here a little bit 
and go into your, you know, 

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subject matter of expertise 
here. 

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I feel like it's so interesting 
that first of all, that you can 

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make a living out of LinkedIn, 
right, Just to start with. 

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But I'm sure that by now you've 
worked with, you know, different

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fields within the law 
professionals that, you know, do

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different things and all of 
that. 

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And if I may ask you, you know, 
is there is there some kind of 

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popular trend that you find that
usually hold people back, back 

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either from expressing their 
voice or from a lot of people 

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have interesting stories, but 
putting that out there, 

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especially on LinkedIn, what 
have you seen so far? 

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What's your experience shown? 
That's a great question, 

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Claudia. 
The way I described this is we 

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all learned LinkedIn the wrong 
way. 

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We all learned LinkedIn is the 
place to stash a digital resume 

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and then to announce when we get
a new job or when we're looking 

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for a new job or if we want to 
share a company press release or

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announcement. 
And that's basically what 

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LinkedIn is for. 
Through my 12 years of 

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practicing law, that is 
absolutely 100% how I approached

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LinkedIn. 
And so with that mentality, when

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I say we learned it wrong, think
we see LinkedIn as a place 

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primarily where we might be able
to get in trouble, that we, we 

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don't want to show up on the 
platform in a way that might get

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us yelled at or get a talking to
or God forbid, somehow we 

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managed to get ourselves fired. 
So we are, we tend to be very 

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reticent to say anything that 
might. 

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We don't even see LinkedIn as a 
place where we might express 

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ourselves. 
We see LinkedIn as only for 

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those things. 
And So what that's created, 

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Well, I'm thinking about your 
question Claudio and I think I 

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just answered your question. 
So I'm gonna I'm actually gonna 

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pause there. 
I think that's the reason that 

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we don't, we don't show up. 
Only a few of us kind of go 

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against the grain on that. 
Thank you for mentioning that. 

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I feel like lost students or, 
or, you know, early career 

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professionals in general, I feel
like I've shared these with 

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people and, and gotten the 
answer from them. 

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So I could say that at least a 
few people feel this way that we

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feel like we have quote UN 
quote, nothing to say or no. 

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A lot of the when you, when you 
go and look online, like what 

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should you post on LinkedIn? 
People will say like try to be 

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helpful, try to, you know, share
expertise and all these things. 

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And then as a student, it's hard
to feel like you really have 

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something meaningful to share, 
right? 

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So what do you, what's the 
angle? 

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What's the message? 
What should we go about doing? 

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What are some of your ideas on 
that for us? 

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So either lost students or just,
you know, early career 

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professionals in general. 
Question the way I think about 

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this, yeah, we, we come to the 
platform thinking why would I 

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say anything? 
I am not the expert on whatever 

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it is. 
I'm not an expert or anything at

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your age or your, your stage of,
of your career, you don't have 

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anything to to put out there. 
And my counter to that is you 

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are at least if nothing else, 
the expert of your own 

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experience. 
You are the expert of your story

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and there's power in sharing 
that. 

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There's there are good things 
that can come from showing up. 

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And the way I talk about this is
a very simple strategy, 

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three-part strategy to getting 
better at LinkedIn. 

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It's be consistent, be generous 
and be genuine. 

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I don't care how far you are 
into your career, you can do 

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those things. 
You can be consistent, you can 

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be generous and you can be 
genuine. 

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And if we juxtapose that with 
how we learned LinkedIn, we 

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learned LinkedIn as a place 
where you don't consistently 

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show up and contribute to 
conversations post comment. 

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You only do it sporadically when
there's something to announce. 

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We don't think about it as a 
place to be generous, as a with 

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our time, with our attention, 
with our thoughts. 

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We think of it as a place to be 
very guarded with those things. 

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And we don't think of it as a 
place to be genuine. 

254
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We think of LinkedIn as a place 
to be. 

255
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I think it's like that, that bad
professional headshot. 

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00:15:34,720 --> 00:15:38,530
You know that that that we we 
show up thinking that we need to

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be like that personified in the 
digital space. 

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Anybody in there? 
You're a really good example of 

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this, Claudio, is when you show 
up, you are consistent with how 

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you show up and you don't need 
to do it, you know, post every 

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00:15:52,400 --> 00:15:55,510
day or, or anything crazy. 
You don't need to take on a part

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time job being a LinkedIn 
creator. 

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But if you can be consistent, if
you can be generous with, you 

264
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know, commenting on other 
people's posts, sending people 

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messages, just connecting on a 
human level, just being genuine,

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showing who you are, what you 
care about, what you believe. 

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That's how you make connections.
That's how you learn how to 

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network in digital space, and 
that's where the good stuff 

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really starts to happen because 
ultimately what we're trying to 

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00:16:23,850 --> 00:16:28,120
do is create opportunities, and 
we create opportunities by 

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creating connections between 
individuals, between different 

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nodes in the network. 
This conversation is as a small 

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00:16:36,130 --> 00:16:39,160
example of that, right? 
It's like you and I connecting 

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out there in Linky Land. 
We get to know each other a 

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little bit. 
And when you invite me to come 

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00:16:44,950 --> 00:16:47,140
on your podcast, I'm happy to do
it. 

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00:16:47,230 --> 00:16:50,500
And who knows what good stuff 
might come out of this 

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conversation? 
That's so interesting. 

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I love that consistency, being 
generous, being genuine, and I 

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actually remember the night we 
connected on LinkedIn. 

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And well, it was such a magical 
night, Claudia, could we ever? 

282
00:17:02,410 --> 00:17:06,099
Forget, you know what it it's 
pretty funny because I had 

283
00:17:06,150 --> 00:17:11,780
recently moved here. 
So I, I came to Canada as a 

284
00:17:11,790 --> 00:17:15,180
researcher at Osgoode Hall, the 
other law school, and then ended

285
00:17:15,190 --> 00:17:17,319
up meeting the person who became
my wife. 

286
00:17:17,369 --> 00:17:21,119
And we, we lived down in Brazil 
for a couple of years, came back

287
00:17:21,230 --> 00:17:24,730
and it was one of the first few 
months I was back here. 

288
00:17:26,270 --> 00:17:28,540
I was adding, trying to, you 
know, add a few people on 

289
00:17:28,550 --> 00:17:30,640
LinkedIn and all of that. 
And I actually got the 

290
00:17:30,650 --> 00:17:33,580
opportunity to participate in a,
in a conference. 

291
00:17:33,830 --> 00:17:36,500
And the dinner for the 
conference was the at the CN 

292
00:17:36,510 --> 00:17:39,080
Tower. 
So I, I was just on my phone 

293
00:17:39,090 --> 00:17:41,820
waiting for people to arrive to 
go with the group. 

294
00:17:41,870 --> 00:17:44,360
And I got your audio message 
right there. 

295
00:17:44,370 --> 00:17:48,140
So, so I guess just the day was,
was quite an interesting day. 

296
00:17:48,230 --> 00:17:51,340
And, and I remember getting the 
message you just sent a nice 

297
00:17:51,350 --> 00:17:54,220
audio note saying like, I guess 
just like, thanks for connecting

298
00:17:54,230 --> 00:17:56,900
and, and you said something 
interesting, but it just, yeah, 

299
00:17:56,910 --> 00:17:59,850
definitely, definitely stayed. 
And I like that kind of thing 

300
00:17:59,860 --> 00:18:02,550
that happens in the, in this 
platform that, you know, might 

301
00:18:02,560 --> 00:18:06,380
not otherwise might not happen 
otherwise in other platforms. 

302
00:18:06,450 --> 00:18:09,540
So I really, really like that. 
And I guess you just show, you 

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00:18:09,550 --> 00:18:12,200
know those attributes that 
you've mentioned here. 

304
00:18:12,250 --> 00:18:16,710
Well, to double click that right
there is I think this this idea 

305
00:18:16,720 --> 00:18:20,750
that LinkedIn might be a place 
to spend more of your time and 

306
00:18:20,760 --> 00:18:23,190
energy. 
And again, with this podcast 

307
00:18:23,200 --> 00:18:27,370
being aimed at, I assume your 
target audience is other folks 

308
00:18:27,380 --> 00:18:30,050
early in their career, right, 
Right. 

309
00:18:30,060 --> 00:18:35,150
So this idea of why would I want
to spend my time and energy 

310
00:18:35,230 --> 00:18:37,010
paying more attention to 
LinkedIn. 

311
00:18:37,080 --> 00:18:41,370
What we're talking about 
ultimately is how to grow a 

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00:18:41,380 --> 00:18:44,870
strong network. 
We're tight, everybody is on 

313
00:18:44,880 --> 00:18:46,870
LinkedIn, right? 
We're all there. 

314
00:18:46,940 --> 00:18:50,210
I don't care what industry 
you're in, just about everybody 

315
00:18:50,220 --> 00:18:53,190
is on LinkedIn. 
And for whatever reason, most 

316
00:18:53,200 --> 00:18:56,950
people will check LinkedIn from 
time to time. 

317
00:18:57,200 --> 00:19:01,190
So it's this situation where all
this attention is gathered. 

318
00:19:01,330 --> 00:19:04,410
And because we all learn the 
platform the wrong way, there's 

319
00:19:04,420 --> 00:19:10,270
almost no competition for 
peoples attention on the feed. 

320
00:19:10,480 --> 00:19:15,390
So if you are able to show up 
and just be more human, you'll 

321
00:19:15,400 --> 00:19:20,130
be more interesting than the 
press releases and the standard 

322
00:19:20,140 --> 00:19:23,030
job announcements. 
If you can be more interesting, 

323
00:19:23,360 --> 00:19:27,570
you can get a disproportionate 
amount of space on other 

324
00:19:27,580 --> 00:19:33,990
people's feeds. 
But so there's like an an sort 

325
00:19:34,000 --> 00:19:39,270
of arbitrage opportunity there 
on the platform, which you're a 

326
00:19:39,280 --> 00:19:41,750
great example. 
So I mean, among Claudia, I 

327
00:19:41,760 --> 00:19:46,760
don't know that I've run across 
any law students in Canada who 

328
00:19:46,770 --> 00:19:49,450
are doing as well as you are in 
this respect. 

329
00:19:49,460 --> 00:19:53,350
I can't think of any. 
But so to that point, like the 

330
00:19:53,360 --> 00:19:55,150
ability to get attention is one 
thing. 

331
00:19:55,160 --> 00:19:56,910
Like that's, that's all well and
good. 

332
00:19:56,920 --> 00:20:00,790
But where things really get 
interesting is when you're able 

333
00:20:00,800 --> 00:20:03,970
to start building relationships,
right? 

334
00:20:03,980 --> 00:20:07,370
You're able to connect. 
Like when we connect, it's 

335
00:20:07,440 --> 00:20:10,140
something you. 
You know, just if you find 

336
00:20:10,150 --> 00:20:13,600
somebody interesting out there 
and maybe, you know, most of us 

337
00:20:13,610 --> 00:20:16,000
learned LinkedIn as a place you 
connect with people you've met 

338
00:20:16,010 --> 00:20:18,300
in real life. 
You don't connect with people 

339
00:20:18,310 --> 00:20:21,820
you've never met in real life. 
That's that's an idea to change 

340
00:20:21,890 --> 00:20:23,860
that. 
We have the ability to connect 

341
00:20:23,870 --> 00:20:28,060
and get access to people all 
over the world who we find 

342
00:20:28,070 --> 00:20:30,400
interesting. 
When you start doing that and 

343
00:20:30,410 --> 00:20:33,040
you reach out and talk about 
LinkedIn as place really where 

344
00:20:33,050 --> 00:20:36,620
you can nerd out about whatever 
it is you love in and out about.

345
00:20:36,830 --> 00:20:40,210
And when you start doing that 
and you start connecting with 

346
00:20:40,220 --> 00:20:43,040
those other people who like 
nerding out about the things you

347
00:20:43,050 --> 00:20:46,310
like nerding out over, things do
get interesting. 

348
00:20:46,320 --> 00:20:52,110
The platform changes in some 
crazy fundamental way and 

349
00:20:52,620 --> 00:20:55,390
opportunities start getting 
created. 

350
00:20:55,560 --> 00:20:58,330
I it. 
It's not predictable. 

351
00:20:58,380 --> 00:21:02,850
It was totally unexpected for me
when it started happening and 

352
00:21:02,940 --> 00:21:09,150
basically 2021-2022, but once 
that that starts happening, it 

353
00:21:09,160 --> 00:21:14,160
really can become a superpower. 
The thing for like let's say my 

354
00:21:14,920 --> 00:21:19,210
my early millennial and slash 
zoomer folks from those 

355
00:21:19,220 --> 00:21:22,990
generations is y'all are digital
natives right? 

356
00:21:23,000 --> 00:21:27,060
In a way that, you know, like 
me, I, I never had social media.

357
00:21:27,070 --> 00:21:30,100
I was out of college before I 
joined my first social media 

358
00:21:30,110 --> 00:21:32,120
network. 
Like we're all learning this 

359
00:21:32,130 --> 00:21:34,140
stuff on the fly. 
They didn't teach us this stuff 

360
00:21:34,150 --> 00:21:36,720
in school. 
And y'all have advantages when 

361
00:21:36,730 --> 00:21:41,390
it comes to how to leverage 
these digital platforms in a way

362
00:21:41,400 --> 00:21:44,050
that I think to your earlier 
question of I don't have 

363
00:21:44,060 --> 00:21:47,750
anything to offer, you're more 
comfortable moving in digital 

364
00:21:47,760 --> 00:21:51,640
spaces. 
And LinkedIn is 1 where people 

365
00:21:51,650 --> 00:21:54,960
tend to be on their better 
behavior, if not best behavior. 

366
00:21:54,970 --> 00:21:56,420
And there are a number of 
reasons for that. 

367
00:21:56,430 --> 00:21:58,180
We don't need to unpack in 
detail. 

368
00:21:58,510 --> 00:22:00,500
But it's like people tend to be 
pretty nice. 

369
00:22:00,510 --> 00:22:02,280
People tend to be pretty 
supportive. 

370
00:22:02,290 --> 00:22:05,940
And regardless of if you know 
what you're trying to do with 

371
00:22:05,950 --> 00:22:09,520
your career to start or you have
no idea and you're just trying 

372
00:22:09,530 --> 00:22:12,690
to even think about it, 
Linkedin's great for both of 

373
00:22:12,700 --> 00:22:15,740
those things are like finding 
opportunities, creating 

374
00:22:15,750 --> 00:22:18,440
opportunities, and also for 
getting ideas. 

375
00:22:18,510 --> 00:22:22,700
Amazing. 
Well, I really love what you, 

376
00:22:22,710 --> 00:22:26,140
what you just brought here. 
All of these points on everybody

377
00:22:26,150 --> 00:22:28,460
has a message, right? 
If you spend some time with it, 

378
00:22:28,470 --> 00:22:30,520
think about there's something 
out there. 

379
00:22:30,950 --> 00:22:33,950
And, and even if you're not the 
one to be, you know, posting all

380
00:22:33,960 --> 00:22:35,900
the time, there's always 
something you can comment. 

381
00:22:35,910 --> 00:22:39,660
Those relationships can exist 
outside of just the, the publish

382
00:22:39,670 --> 00:22:42,840
button. 
And really to wrap up this 

383
00:22:42,850 --> 00:22:47,580
episode today, is there maybe 
any success story or any 

384
00:22:47,630 --> 00:22:50,380
experience that you've had with 
somebody who felt maybe that 

385
00:22:50,390 --> 00:22:53,400
way, that either they had these 
stories but really didn't have a

386
00:22:53,410 --> 00:22:57,620
way to come out with them or 
just somebody who just felt like

387
00:22:57,630 --> 00:23:00,800
LinkedIn wasn't for them. 
And professionally, you've just 

388
00:23:00,850 --> 00:23:04,120
been able to help them to to 
really get there. 

389
00:23:04,160 --> 00:23:07,130
I have Are you connected with 
Kimber Marie Faircloth? 

390
00:23:07,190 --> 00:23:10,430
The name doesn't ring a bell 
specifically, but I might be. 

391
00:23:10,520 --> 00:23:14,270
So Kim and Marie graduated from 
law school last year, and she 

392
00:23:14,280 --> 00:23:18,710
went to a smaller school called 
Elon in North Carolina. 

393
00:23:18,720 --> 00:23:22,230
She's from North Carolina, and 
she knew coming out of law 

394
00:23:22,240 --> 00:23:25,870
school that she wanted to go 
into intellectual property as a 

395
00:23:25,880 --> 00:23:29,750
practice area. 
And beyond that, she has some 

396
00:23:29,760 --> 00:23:33,280
family ties. 
She knew she wanted to stay in 

397
00:23:33,960 --> 00:23:39,050
North Carolina, even though IP 
in particularly the types of IP 

398
00:23:39,060 --> 00:23:43,830
she was interested in tend to be
focused geographically centred 

399
00:23:43,880 --> 00:23:48,650
in your major metro areas, New 
York, LA, Chicago, maybe. 

400
00:23:48,660 --> 00:23:52,070
She started building her 
presence on LinkedIn during her 

401
00:23:52,080 --> 00:23:55,310
second year law school through 
her third year law school and 

402
00:23:55,320 --> 00:23:57,850
she graduated, took the bar 
exam. 

403
00:23:57,980 --> 00:24:01,370
She ended up working with me at 
Contender for a little while as 

404
00:24:01,380 --> 00:24:05,090
she was navigating this liminal 
space of trying to find this 

405
00:24:05,100 --> 00:24:08,470
right opportunity. 
And sure enough, it ended up 

406
00:24:08,780 --> 00:24:14,210
that it she ended up landing in 
associate position with an IP 

407
00:24:14,220 --> 00:24:19,810
firm run by a strong female 
founder who was just fine with 

408
00:24:19,820 --> 00:24:22,760
her working remotely from North 
Carolina. 

409
00:24:22,830 --> 00:24:27,130
So like this seeming needle in a
haystack opportunity, she 

410
00:24:27,140 --> 00:24:30,320
managed to find it. 
Or I would say it managed to 

411
00:24:30,330 --> 00:24:33,080
find her. 
She had connected with the 

412
00:24:33,090 --> 00:24:37,280
founder of this firm more than a
year before the opportunity 

413
00:24:37,290 --> 00:24:40,730
arose. 
And so, but by that time, there 

414
00:24:40,740 --> 00:24:44,200
was a potential fit. 
The founder knew who Kimber 

415
00:24:44,210 --> 00:24:48,300
Murray was and knew that she 
liked her and knew that she was 

416
00:24:48,310 --> 00:24:50,720
interested. 
Kimber Marie had expressed that 

417
00:24:50,730 --> 00:24:53,800
interest, like previously. 
She had let her know and they 

418
00:24:53,810 --> 00:24:55,910
had developed enough of her 
relation. 

419
00:24:55,920 --> 00:24:59,530
I don't think they had ever 
talked, but just from being out 

420
00:24:59,540 --> 00:25:03,550
there with her own content and 
then engaging with this founders

421
00:25:03,560 --> 00:25:07,430
content, it was this 
relationship got warmed up to a 

422
00:25:07,440 --> 00:25:11,830
point where when the opportunity
arose, when there was a a 

423
00:25:11,840 --> 00:25:15,230
position that might be a fit, it
all happened pretty quickly. 

424
00:25:15,680 --> 00:25:21,210
Offer that as a a case study in 
really how this can. 

425
00:25:21,220 --> 00:25:24,350
Work that's just amazing, that's
just amazing how connections 

426
00:25:24,360 --> 00:25:28,110
lead to, to really life changing
ultimately. 

427
00:25:28,160 --> 00:25:30,570
So thank you so much for for 
sharing that. 

428
00:25:30,580 --> 00:25:33,130
I think that's enough 
encouragement for anybody who's 

429
00:25:33,220 --> 00:25:36,070
thinking whether they should be 
out there and active or not. 

430
00:25:36,080 --> 00:25:39,750
And I, I love what you said 
ultra all this podcast, you 

431
00:25:39,760 --> 00:25:42,830
know, don't, don't need to make 
it part time job out of keeping 

432
00:25:42,840 --> 00:25:46,010
your LinkedIn updated, but just 
showing up makes a huge 

433
00:25:46,020 --> 00:25:49,370
difference and can really open 
those doors in the future. 

434
00:25:49,440 --> 00:25:53,570
Let's keep up doing that and 
thank you so much, Tony for for 

435
00:25:53,580 --> 00:25:56,020
sharing your story and your 
insights with us today. 

436
00:25:56,780 --> 00:25:59,190
Now thanks for the time. 
Claudio's great talking to you, 

437
00:25:59,200 --> 00:26:00,810
brother. 
Thank you all for tuning in and 

438
00:26:00,820 --> 00:26:02,370
we'll see you on the next 
episode.