1 00:00:12,880 --> 00:00:14,870 Welcome to Studying Law Around the World. 2 00:00:15,020 --> 00:00:17,870 I'm Claudio Claus. In each episode, I talk with 3 00:00:17,880 --> 00:00:20,850 lawyers, law students, and professors from different parts 4 00:00:20,860 --> 00:00:24,730 of the world to talk about legal education, careers, and what the 5 00:00:24,740 --> 00:00:26,410 profession looks like in real life. 6 00:00:26,420 --> 00:00:29,470 We talk about the hard parts, the surprises, and the decisions 7 00:00:29,480 --> 00:00:32,270 that shaped their paths. Whether you're planning to study 8 00:00:32,280 --> 00:00:35,520 abroad, thinking about working in another legal system, or just 9 00:00:35,530 --> 00:00:39,630 curious about how law works around the world, this podcast 10 00:00:39,640 --> 00:00:45,120 is for you. Today, I'm starting a new series 11 00:00:45,130 --> 00:00:47,640 in the podcast, and I'm speaking with lawyers who bring their 12 00:00:47,650 --> 00:00:50,760 faith and personal conviction into their legal work. 13 00:00:50,830 --> 00:00:53,700 These are some honest conversations about how values 14 00:00:53,710 --> 00:00:58,510 and true religious identity and belief shape decisions, careers, 15 00:00:58,520 --> 00:01:01,840 and views of justice across different practice areas and 16 00:01:01,850 --> 00:01:03,420 countries. My goal is simple. 17 00:01:03,490 --> 00:01:06,400 It's to explore what it really looks like to be a lawyer who 18 00:01:06,410 --> 00:01:10,200 brings their whole self to work. To start these conversations and 19 00:01:10,210 --> 00:01:14,060 this series, I'm having as today's guest Professor Brad 20 00:01:14,070 --> 00:01:16,270 Sharps. He's a leading scholar in law 21 00:01:16,280 --> 00:01:19,680 and religion and the director of the International Centre for Law 22 00:01:19,690 --> 00:01:22,220 and Religious Studies at Brigham Young University. 23 00:01:22,270 --> 00:01:26,480 His work focuses on religious freedom, national law, and the 24 00:01:26,490 --> 00:01:30,000 role of human dignity in legal systems around the world. 25 00:01:30,060 --> 00:01:33,360 He has thought and spoken in dozens of countries, contributed 26 00:01:33,370 --> 00:01:36,610 extensively to scholarship in this field, and continues to 27 00:01:36,620 --> 00:01:39,930 engage with global institutions, including conversations at the 28 00:01:39,940 --> 00:01:43,320 United Nations on how law, faith, and human rights 29 00:01:43,330 --> 00:01:45,840 intersecting practice. Thank you so much for making the 30 00:01:45,850 --> 00:01:47,730 time to be here today, Professor Sheriffs. 31 00:01:47,870 --> 00:01:49,580 Thank you, Claudia. It's a pleasure to see you. 32 00:01:49,590 --> 00:01:51,980 Again, absolutely. Thank you for making the time 33 00:01:51,990 --> 00:01:53,640 and just start your conversation today. 34 00:01:53,650 --> 00:01:57,340 I I'd love for you to introduce yourself to your listeners that 35 00:01:57,350 --> 00:02:00,320 was a little bit more about yourself and if we can start as 36 00:02:00,330 --> 00:02:03,640 well hearing about your journey a little bit, if you can take us 37 00:02:03,650 --> 00:02:08,280 back on, when did you first start to be interested in this, 38 00:02:08,370 --> 00:02:11,530 the intersection of law and religious freedom or law and 39 00:02:11,540 --> 00:02:13,630 religion? My father taught at the 40 00:02:13,640 --> 00:02:17,210 university level and one of the subjects he taught was world 41 00:02:17,220 --> 00:02:20,550 religions. So I grew up in a home where 42 00:02:20,640 --> 00:02:22,590 there was an interest in world religions. 43 00:02:22,600 --> 00:02:26,810 My undergraduate studies was at Georgetown University and while 44 00:02:26,820 --> 00:02:31,050 I was a business major, I had a minor in theology. 45 00:02:31,060 --> 00:02:34,650 And Georgetown is a Catholic Jesuit university. 46 00:02:34,720 --> 00:02:37,730 And I really fell under the spell of the Jesuit priest 47 00:02:37,740 --> 00:02:40,450 dinner. And while I was at Georgetown a 48 00:02:40,460 --> 00:02:44,710 studying theology, I took a lot of courses in in world religions 49 00:02:44,720 --> 00:02:47,390 again and I found it very interesting. 50 00:02:47,400 --> 00:02:50,830 From there I shifted gears and studied philosophy for a while. 51 00:02:50,840 --> 00:02:54,700 I earned 2 masters degrees in philosophy and then went to law 52 00:02:54,710 --> 00:02:57,400 school. And at law school I found myself 53 00:02:57,410 --> 00:03:02,080 once again really interested in religion, this time law and 54 00:03:02,090 --> 00:03:04,540 religion. At Yale Law School we had to 55 00:03:04,550 --> 00:03:09,660 write a mini thesis and mine was on a Supreme Court issue 56 00:03:09,710 --> 00:03:13,540 involving law and religion and then worked as a law clerk for a 57 00:03:13,550 --> 00:03:17,660 couple years, practice law and then began teaching at Brigham 58 00:03:17,670 --> 00:03:21,100 Young University. And there I met a professor 59 00:03:21,110 --> 00:03:24,900 named Cole Durham who was a scholar focusing on law and 60 00:03:24,910 --> 00:03:27,880 religion and I began teaching classes with him. 61 00:03:27,950 --> 00:03:31,840 And a couple late I couple of years later, the International 62 00:03:31,850 --> 00:03:35,930 Centre for Law and Religion Studies was created BYU. 63 00:03:36,280 --> 00:03:40,350 That was January 1st, 2000. He was the founding director of 64 00:03:40,360 --> 00:03:43,090 that centre and I began working with him. 65 00:03:43,140 --> 00:03:47,550 And over the years the amount of work I did intensified. 66 00:03:47,600 --> 00:03:51,470 I became an associate director of that centre, focused mostly 67 00:03:51,480 --> 00:03:56,150 on Asia and I worked extensively in that area for a number of 68 00:03:56,160 --> 00:03:59,110 years. And then about 10 years ago, in 69 00:03:59,120 --> 00:04:02,530 May of 2016, I became director of the centre. 70 00:04:02,600 --> 00:04:07,170 And so it has become a significant part of my 71 00:04:07,260 --> 00:04:09,990 professional life. I'm still a professorial 72 00:04:10,000 --> 00:04:13,070 professor at BYU. I still have all of the 73 00:04:13,340 --> 00:04:17,269 responsibilities of a regular professor, But in addition to 74 00:04:17,279 --> 00:04:22,530 that, I the director of a small centre that focuses on law and 75 00:04:22,540 --> 00:04:24,620 religion. Globally amazing. 76 00:04:24,630 --> 00:04:27,660 And thank you so much for for taking the time to explore a 77 00:04:27,670 --> 00:04:30,220 little bit about your story. I think that's so interesting of 78 00:04:30,310 --> 00:04:33,680 how many ways law and religion have really intersected in your 79 00:04:33,690 --> 00:04:36,000 career. And, and I'm curious as well, 80 00:04:36,010 --> 00:04:39,460 you know, in your experience, how has your personal faith also 81 00:04:39,470 --> 00:04:41,860 shaped the way you see these issues? 82 00:04:41,900 --> 00:04:45,380 So when you think about law, justice and your role as a legal 83 00:04:45,390 --> 00:04:47,630 scholar. Well, I'm a member of the Church 84 00:04:47,640 --> 00:04:49,460 of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. 85 00:04:49,470 --> 00:04:54,150 I grew up in the faith and my family traces its history back 86 00:04:54,160 --> 00:04:58,750 to the very early pioneers. And so this is a faith tradition 87 00:04:58,760 --> 00:05:03,070 that suffered persecution but is largely accepted, as, you know, 88 00:05:03,080 --> 00:05:07,790 regular part of society today. And so we've experienced 89 00:05:07,800 --> 00:05:11,330 persecution, but we've also experienced the journey from 90 00:05:11,340 --> 00:05:14,690 persecution to inclusion. But I think we have a heart for 91 00:05:14,700 --> 00:05:18,970 the persecuted because we've experienced it recently enough. 92 00:05:19,020 --> 00:05:22,990 And occasionally we still experience misunderstanding or 93 00:05:23,000 --> 00:05:26,790 discrimination. And so we have sort of a 94 00:05:26,800 --> 00:05:31,430 sensitivity to others who are earlier in that journey or who 95 00:05:31,440 --> 00:05:36,150 are suffering discrimination or persecution around the world. 96 00:05:36,200 --> 00:05:41,970 And so that may be one reason why this is a subject matter 97 00:05:42,060 --> 00:05:46,470 that is of natural interest to members of The Church of Jesus 98 00:05:46,480 --> 00:05:51,110 Christ of Latter Day Saints. And so at BYU, it's a really 99 00:05:51,180 --> 00:05:55,710 easy place to have a centre that focuses on law and religion 100 00:05:55,720 --> 00:06:00,810 studies because it's a university and a church that is 101 00:06:00,820 --> 00:06:05,560 part of the history, is part of the theology, It's part of the 102 00:06:05,620 --> 00:06:09,010 core collective memory that religious freedom is really 103 00:06:09,020 --> 00:06:11,530 important. Amazing, as I was preparing for 104 00:06:11,540 --> 00:06:15,650 this podcast and frankly, we've we've met in the past and I've, 105 00:06:15,720 --> 00:06:17,830 I've seen some of your scholarship and I've seen that 106 00:06:17,840 --> 00:06:21,110 you've written about ideas like humility, legal reasoning, and 107 00:06:21,120 --> 00:06:24,450 law as the craft. So how do your beliefs influence 108 00:06:24,460 --> 00:06:27,650 the way you approach these in your teaching and in your 109 00:06:27,660 --> 00:06:29,790 scholarship? Well, thank you for noticing 110 00:06:29,800 --> 00:06:33,100 that, Claudio. The first article I wrote as a 111 00:06:33,110 --> 00:06:36,820 law professor was called The Role of Humility in Exercising 112 00:06:36,830 --> 00:06:38,980 Practical Wisdom. At Yale Law School. 113 00:06:38,990 --> 00:06:43,120 I was a research assistant for a professor I really admired named 114 00:06:43,130 --> 00:06:46,280 Anthony Kronman, and he was working on a book called The 115 00:06:46,290 --> 00:06:49,010 Lost Lawyer about the legal profession. 116 00:06:49,020 --> 00:06:53,340 And in that book, his basic argument was that to be a good 117 00:06:53,350 --> 00:06:56,780 lawyer you needed two capacities, the capacity of 118 00:06:56,790 --> 00:06:59,560 sympathy and the capacity of detachment. 119 00:06:59,630 --> 00:07:03,140 And he compared it to bifocal lenses that you needed to be 120 00:07:03,150 --> 00:07:07,140 able to have an up close capacity to see people with 121 00:07:07,150 --> 00:07:09,840 genuine sympathy. I thought the word was empathy. 122 00:07:09,850 --> 00:07:11,800 He and I had a big argument about that. 123 00:07:11,900 --> 00:07:15,290 But in any event, the other was detachment, which was the 124 00:07:15,300 --> 00:07:19,870 ability to pull back, not overly identify with your clients 125 00:07:19,880 --> 00:07:22,820 interest and exercise detached judgment. 126 00:07:22,880 --> 00:07:27,350 And as I thought about it, it seemed to me that in order to be 127 00:07:27,360 --> 00:07:31,570 able to toggle back and forth between sympathy and detachment, 128 00:07:31,640 --> 00:07:36,390 the key virtue that you needed, I had been studying Aristotle. 129 00:07:36,400 --> 00:07:41,390 So I really believed in virtue as the key element of a 130 00:07:41,400 --> 00:07:44,670 character was humility. And so I thought of the passage 131 00:07:44,680 --> 00:07:49,030 in Micah, It's a Micah 68 where it says, what does the Lord 132 00:07:49,040 --> 00:07:52,890 require of thee? And the answer is to do justice, 133 00:07:52,900 --> 00:07:55,650 love mercy, and walk humbly with your God. 134 00:07:55,750 --> 00:07:59,940 And so to my mind, sympathy lined up with mercy and 135 00:07:59,950 --> 00:08:02,200 detachment lined up with justice. 136 00:08:02,270 --> 00:08:06,700 And that missing ingredient of humility is what you needed to 137 00:08:06,710 --> 00:08:10,640 complement mercy and justice. And of course, mercy and justice 138 00:08:10,650 --> 00:08:13,940 are recognized as the two great legal values. 139 00:08:13,950 --> 00:08:17,480 And then we think of mercy and justice as being in conflict 140 00:08:17,490 --> 00:08:20,080 with each other. And sometimes they are. 141 00:08:20,150 --> 00:08:23,810 And so to my mind, I began thinking that in order to 142 00:08:23,820 --> 00:08:28,660 navigate the competing claims of mercy and justice, the key 143 00:08:28,750 --> 00:08:34,179 virtue we need, the character of trait we need as lawyers, as 144 00:08:34,190 --> 00:08:37,280 humility. And so that was my very first 145 00:08:37,289 --> 00:08:40,669 article. And of course, in a way, well, 146 00:08:40,760 --> 00:08:45,270 in a very deep way, it was motivated by my relating my 147 00:08:45,280 --> 00:08:49,090 reading of a religious tax. And so from the very beginning 148 00:08:49,100 --> 00:08:54,650 of my career as a law professor, I was thinking about these 149 00:08:54,740 --> 00:08:59,430 really important jurisprudential questions through a lens that 150 00:08:59,440 --> 00:09:02,300 included religious perspectives. Fantastic. 151 00:09:02,310 --> 00:09:05,010 Well, that that's quite impressive that right right at 152 00:09:05,020 --> 00:09:07,130 the beginning you had that intersection. 153 00:09:07,180 --> 00:09:10,550 Thinking about this series and and preparing for this episode, 154 00:09:10,560 --> 00:09:14,870 I've I've realized that more and more I see that lawyers may face 155 00:09:14,880 --> 00:09:18,090 some kind of tension between their personal conviction and 156 00:09:18,100 --> 00:09:21,610 professional expectations. I see that sometimes different 157 00:09:21,620 --> 00:09:25,820 organizations try also if you incentivize bigger corporations 158 00:09:26,010 --> 00:09:29,300 to to really have that place for faith at work. 159 00:09:29,370 --> 00:09:32,640 I see many initiatives happening, especially in the US 160 00:09:32,730 --> 00:09:35,640 in regards to that. But I'm curious if you have ever 161 00:09:35,650 --> 00:09:38,200 experienced or navigating, if you ever experienced or 162 00:09:38,210 --> 00:09:40,960 navigated that in your own career where there was any kind 163 00:09:40,970 --> 00:09:44,960 of tension between a personal conviction and especially in 164 00:09:45,050 --> 00:09:48,120 your faith and a professional expectation? 165 00:09:48,210 --> 00:09:52,300 Well, I'm friends with a a scholar named Brian Graham who 166 00:09:52,350 --> 00:09:55,840 runs the Faith and Business Foundation, and that's a big 167 00:09:55,850 --> 00:09:59,900 part of his work, is trying to promote the idea of bringing 168 00:09:59,910 --> 00:10:03,820 your whole person to work, including your faith. 169 00:10:03,910 --> 00:10:07,670 I'm not sure I'm entirely on board with that because 170 00:10:07,740 --> 00:10:12,820 sometimes I think it's in our lives that when we're at work, I 171 00:10:12,830 --> 00:10:18,110 think it's OK for us to have a professional persona that 172 00:10:18,120 --> 00:10:23,070 doesn't include all of us. I think sometimes we leave 173 00:10:23,080 --> 00:10:26,250 elements of our family life at home. 174 00:10:26,260 --> 00:10:30,090 We don't bring all of our family troubles with us to work. 175 00:10:30,160 --> 00:10:34,230 We don't leave all of our hobbies with us when we go to 176 00:10:34,240 --> 00:10:36,450 work. We don't leave all of our 177 00:10:36,460 --> 00:10:39,930 fascination with sports with us when we go to work. 178 00:10:39,990 --> 00:10:42,740 I mean, there may be occasions where we talk about it around 179 00:10:42,750 --> 00:10:47,430 the water cooler, but I think it's OK for us to have some 180 00:10:47,520 --> 00:10:52,500 element of compartmentalization. I was a lawyer at a Wall Street 181 00:10:52,510 --> 00:10:54,900 law firm called Sullivan and Cromwell. 182 00:10:54,910 --> 00:10:58,400 And what impressed me about that firm was there were people from 183 00:10:58,450 --> 00:11:00,480 all different kinds of backgrounds. 184 00:11:00,490 --> 00:11:04,320 And all that mattered was, could you do the work? 185 00:11:04,390 --> 00:11:07,940 The coin of the realm was as an associate, were you well 186 00:11:07,950 --> 00:11:10,800 regarded or not? And whether you were well 187 00:11:10,810 --> 00:11:13,160 regarded was whether you could deliver. 188 00:11:13,210 --> 00:11:15,400 One of the things that was unique about Sullivan and 189 00:11:15,410 --> 00:11:19,160 Cromwell is no one put their diplomas on the wall. 190 00:11:19,220 --> 00:11:22,960 Now, I had a a pretty impressive educational background. 191 00:11:22,970 --> 00:11:26,000 If people were hanging their diplomas on the wall, my set of 192 00:11:26,010 --> 00:11:30,080 diplomas would look pretty good. But I would not have dared put 193 00:11:30,090 --> 00:11:33,830 my diploma on the wall. No one told me not to, but there 194 00:11:33,840 --> 00:11:37,770 was not an attorney in the firm that had their diploma on the 195 00:11:37,780 --> 00:11:41,650 wall at Sullivan and Cromwell. It would never have occurred to 196 00:11:41,660 --> 00:11:45,470 me that it was OK to do that. And so I didn't bring my 197 00:11:45,480 --> 00:11:49,550 educational pedigree with me to work at Sullivan and Cromwell. 198 00:11:49,600 --> 00:11:52,730 Now, on the other hand, I'm a latter day St. 199 00:11:52,820 --> 00:11:56,190 And before I got to the Washington, DC office of 200 00:11:56,200 --> 00:11:59,850 Sullivan and Cromwell, there had been another latter day St. who 201 00:11:59,860 --> 00:12:02,530 had worked there. He had left right before I 202 00:12:02,540 --> 00:12:05,110 arrived, but he had lived his faith. 203 00:12:05,180 --> 00:12:08,650 He had kept the Sabbath day. And I was assigned to a very 204 00:12:08,660 --> 00:12:11,510 intense project. And the senior partner on the 205 00:12:11,520 --> 00:12:14,630 project told me, I know you're a latter day St. 206 00:12:14,680 --> 00:12:19,500 I know you cannot work one Sunday, but I need you to be 207 00:12:19,510 --> 00:12:23,960 here on Saturday until midnight, and I need you to be back early 208 00:12:23,970 --> 00:12:26,060 Monday morning. Will you do that? 209 00:12:26,130 --> 00:12:28,840 And it was easy for me to say yes. 210 00:12:28,930 --> 00:12:33,790 And it was really easy for me because my predecessor had lived 211 00:12:33,800 --> 00:12:37,560 the tenants of his faith. And there were observant Jews 212 00:12:37,570 --> 00:12:41,890 who took off sundown Friday until a sundown on Saturday. 213 00:12:41,900 --> 00:12:46,320 And people at Sullivan and Cromwell were really respectful 214 00:12:46,390 --> 00:12:50,740 of religious obligation. But I've never been anywhere 215 00:12:50,790 --> 00:12:54,620 where people work harder and longer hours than Sullivan and 216 00:12:54,630 --> 00:12:57,280 Cromwell. So believe me, we more than 217 00:12:57,290 --> 00:13:01,950 made-up for it in the other expectations that we met. 218 00:13:01,960 --> 00:13:05,610 But I was able to lift my faith in that professional 219 00:13:05,620 --> 00:13:08,690 environment. Now, other than that, religion 220 00:13:08,700 --> 00:13:11,510 never came up. I was never talking about my 221 00:13:11,520 --> 00:13:15,850 faith at Sullivan and Cromwell. We didn't have employee resource 222 00:13:15,860 --> 00:13:18,190 groups that were talking about religion. 223 00:13:18,200 --> 00:13:22,080 And if there had been one, I would have been uncomfortable 224 00:13:22,090 --> 00:13:26,890 joining it because faith was just not part of the culture at 225 00:13:26,900 --> 00:13:29,150 that law firm. Nor would I have been 226 00:13:29,160 --> 00:13:33,270 comfortable joining a hobby group because hobbies were not 227 00:13:33,280 --> 00:13:35,910 part of the culture at Sullivan and Cromwell. 228 00:13:35,960 --> 00:13:39,000 Sullivan and Cromwell was a place where you went and worked 229 00:13:39,040 --> 00:13:43,080 and did the job. And the lawyers at Sullivan and 230 00:13:43,090 --> 00:13:47,180 Cromwell were really intense professionals. 231 00:13:47,190 --> 00:13:50,260 And then when they weren't working, they left. 232 00:13:50,320 --> 00:13:54,300 And what little life they had was their own personal, private 233 00:13:54,310 --> 00:13:57,780 life. And so I don't mind not taking 234 00:13:57,790 --> 00:14:00,740 my whole self to work. Now today I work at a 235 00:14:00,750 --> 00:14:04,700 religiously affiliated university, and so I can talk 236 00:14:04,710 --> 00:14:08,760 openly about my faith. And I do so much more today than 237 00:14:08,770 --> 00:14:12,520 I did early in my career. So, for example, I teach law and 238 00:14:12,530 --> 00:14:16,260 religion, religious freedom. It was only recently that I 239 00:14:16,310 --> 00:14:20,320 began thinking I should share a passage of scripture that 240 00:14:20,330 --> 00:14:22,960 relates to religious freedom in my class. 241 00:14:22,970 --> 00:14:26,700 I've been teaching for 30 years and until the last few years I 242 00:14:26,710 --> 00:14:29,880 never did them at a religiously affiliated university. 243 00:14:29,930 --> 00:14:33,960 I had been so intensely secularized from my education 244 00:14:34,010 --> 00:14:37,820 that even at a religiously affiliated university it never 245 00:14:37,830 --> 00:14:39,700 occurred to me that I could do that. 246 00:14:39,770 --> 00:14:44,090 And so these days at the beginning of class I just pull 247 00:14:44,100 --> 00:14:48,140 out a verse of scripture and it could be something as simple as 248 00:14:48,210 --> 00:14:54,620 God created man in his own image and I can tell the class in 2 249 00:14:54,630 --> 00:14:58,040 minutes at the beginning of the hour why I think this is a 250 00:14:58,050 --> 00:15:01,240 religious freedom scripture. I found that liberating. 251 00:15:01,250 --> 00:15:05,540 And so later in my career, I have found it easier to 252 00:15:05,550 --> 00:15:09,400 integrate to my faith into my work. 253 00:15:09,450 --> 00:15:11,800 But part of that is the field I work in. 254 00:15:12,190 --> 00:15:17,250 And lately in the field of law and religion, I've become more 255 00:15:17,260 --> 00:15:23,820 confident integrating my faith openly and fully into my to my 256 00:15:23,830 --> 00:15:26,960 work. And I have a lot of really great 257 00:15:26,970 --> 00:15:30,260 interfaith friendships. And I think those have been made 258 00:15:30,270 --> 00:15:36,240 possible largely because I authentically and visibly live 259 00:15:36,250 --> 00:15:39,620 my own faith and hope that others will do the same. 260 00:15:39,690 --> 00:15:45,360 And so that has been a valuable part of how I've been able to 261 00:15:45,410 --> 00:15:48,120 relate to other people in my field. 262 00:15:48,170 --> 00:15:51,180 But my field is the field of religious freedom. 263 00:15:51,260 --> 00:15:53,850 And so, you know, that's a pretty specialized. 264 00:15:54,040 --> 00:15:58,330 So I think it varies from context to context, Claudio. 265 00:15:58,600 --> 00:16:02,690 And the way I could do it at Sullivan and Cromwell was very 266 00:16:02,700 --> 00:16:06,480 different than I did it as a young professor and it's 267 00:16:06,490 --> 00:16:10,860 different than how I do it now as an older professor in a field 268 00:16:10,870 --> 00:16:13,730 that's related to the law and religion. 269 00:16:13,740 --> 00:16:18,630 And so I don't think there's a simple one-size-fits-all answer 270 00:16:18,640 --> 00:16:21,480 for this. But one thing I've noticed about 271 00:16:21,490 --> 00:16:27,110 your generation is authenticity is a value that is much more 272 00:16:27,120 --> 00:16:30,270 important than it was to my generation. 273 00:16:30,340 --> 00:16:34,590 And so I have come to really admire that about your 274 00:16:34,600 --> 00:16:38,740 generation. And so I have tried to be more 275 00:16:38,790 --> 00:16:43,700 open and authentic about how I present myself to the world. 276 00:16:43,770 --> 00:16:49,100 And I find that easier to do with your generation than it is 277 00:16:49,110 --> 00:16:53,160 with the generation that preceded me or my generation. 278 00:16:53,170 --> 00:16:55,160 Fantastic. Well, I really appreciate you 279 00:16:55,170 --> 00:16:58,470 bringing all this detail and really explaining the different 280 00:16:58,480 --> 00:17:01,530 contexts in which you worked. I think that's so important to 281 00:17:01,540 --> 00:17:04,859 note that there is no one specific answer of how to live 282 00:17:04,869 --> 00:17:06,940 authentically. And I appreciate you mentioning 283 00:17:06,950 --> 00:17:09,390 this that that you've noticed that different generations have 284 00:17:09,400 --> 00:17:12,920 different points about that. I also know that the centre for 285 00:17:12,930 --> 00:17:16,660 which you work has a really interesting program globally. 286 00:17:16,730 --> 00:17:20,500 So you frequently interact with global leaders of different 287 00:17:20,510 --> 00:17:24,819 faiths, with scholars and and has a really interesting, you 288 00:17:24,829 --> 00:17:27,680 have a really interesting overall program going on 289 00:17:28,030 --> 00:17:31,680 regarding that truth, this global work and engagement with 290 00:17:31,690 --> 00:17:35,020 this different leaders with different legal systems. 291 00:17:35,030 --> 00:17:39,080 I'm understanding that most people, most callers are very 292 00:17:39,090 --> 00:17:41,540 much connected to the field of law as well. 293 00:17:41,600 --> 00:17:44,520 What are some of the things that you've learned about how 294 00:17:44,530 --> 00:17:48,220 religious tradition is understood and protected across 295 00:17:48,230 --> 00:17:50,640 cultures? So I'm a scholar of law and 296 00:17:50,650 --> 00:17:54,300 religion that looks at it from an international law and a 297 00:17:54,310 --> 00:17:58,560 comparative law perspective. So my principal expertise is in 298 00:17:58,570 --> 00:18:03,270 U.S. law, and U.S. law on law and religion is quite different 299 00:18:03,280 --> 00:18:06,960 than most other places in the world because we have an 300 00:18:06,970 --> 00:18:11,030 Establishment Clause as well as a free exercise clause, and the 301 00:18:11,040 --> 00:18:13,830 Establishment Clause means no state religion. 302 00:18:13,880 --> 00:18:17,710 There are a lot of places where there are different church state 303 00:18:17,720 --> 00:18:20,670 relationships and some have established churches. 304 00:18:20,740 --> 00:18:24,690 And so the international law framework is mostly found in 305 00:18:24,740 --> 00:18:28,310 human rights instruments. And so when we focus on law and 306 00:18:28,320 --> 00:18:31,830 religion from a human rights perspective, we usually start 307 00:18:31,840 --> 00:18:36,490 with the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and Article 18 308 00:18:36,500 --> 00:18:40,270 of the Universal Declaration. And then we have enforceable 309 00:18:40,280 --> 00:18:44,230 treaties like the International Covenant on Civil and Political 310 00:18:44,240 --> 00:18:48,320 Rights and the European Convention on Human Rights. 311 00:18:48,330 --> 00:18:52,500 And those conventions are legally enforceable. 312 00:18:52,570 --> 00:18:57,260 And the European Convention in particular has a robust body of 313 00:18:57,270 --> 00:19:01,540 law of case law that has been decided by the European Court of 314 00:19:01,550 --> 00:19:04,410 Human Rights. And then you have comparative 315 00:19:04,420 --> 00:19:07,920 constitutional law. And so you have case law which 316 00:19:07,930 --> 00:19:11,000 has been decided by the Supreme Court of Canada and the Supreme 317 00:19:11,010 --> 00:19:14,360 Court of South Africa and the Supreme Court of, you know, 318 00:19:14,410 --> 00:19:17,300 every other country or equivalence to the Supreme 319 00:19:17,310 --> 00:19:20,720 Court. And so as scholars, my colleague 320 00:19:20,730 --> 00:19:24,660 Cole Durham and I have written a case book on law and religion. 321 00:19:24,750 --> 00:19:31,510 And what it does is it has 1/3 of its material on U.S. law, 1/3 322 00:19:31,560 --> 00:19:36,830 on international human rights based law, and 1/3 on 323 00:19:36,890 --> 00:19:41,270 comparative constitutional law. And so it will have sort of a 324 00:19:41,280 --> 00:19:45,450 half dozen of the important Canadian cases in the book as 325 00:19:45,460 --> 00:19:48,610 part of the comparative law section, although it doesn't 326 00:19:48,620 --> 00:19:52,230 have extensive materials on Canadian law. 327 00:19:52,280 --> 00:19:57,930 But for example, Multani, which is the Canadian sick case about 328 00:19:58,000 --> 00:20:02,330 whether you can have a coupon in schools, is a really interesting 329 00:20:02,340 --> 00:20:05,990 case. And so we have that and contrast 330 00:20:06,000 --> 00:20:12,340 it with other cases involving or other cases involving religious 331 00:20:12,350 --> 00:20:14,720 symbols. The schools that are decided 332 00:20:14,730 --> 00:20:18,270 either by the European Court of Human Rights or United States 333 00:20:18,280 --> 00:20:21,480 Supreme Court. And so that's how we try to 334 00:20:21,490 --> 00:20:24,040 approach the study of this field. 335 00:20:24,110 --> 00:20:27,800 And for example, if we're brought into a country to help 336 00:20:27,810 --> 00:20:32,400 with a law reform project, we don't come in and say just 337 00:20:32,410 --> 00:20:35,460 here's how the US does it, you should do it that way. 338 00:20:35,520 --> 00:20:39,080 What we try to do is come in and say, here's the problem you're 339 00:20:39,090 --> 00:20:41,800 facing. Here is how, you know, half 340 00:20:41,810 --> 00:20:45,200 dozen other countries address this problem. 341 00:20:45,210 --> 00:20:48,100 Here are the strengths and the weaknesses of those different 342 00:20:48,110 --> 00:20:50,840 approaches. And then the people from those 343 00:20:50,850 --> 00:20:53,940 countries will solve their own problems for the most part. 344 00:20:54,050 --> 00:21:00,090 And our role is to sort of inform them about the range of 345 00:21:00,140 --> 00:21:05,750 solutions that others have used. And they will themselves figure 346 00:21:05,760 --> 00:21:08,930 out what they want to do. And then we can provide 347 00:21:08,940 --> 00:21:11,580 technical help. If they decide, well, we'd like 348 00:21:11,590 --> 00:21:15,350 to try to do something similar to what South Africa has done, 349 00:21:15,420 --> 00:21:19,310 then we can help them identify, you know, the South Africa law 350 00:21:19,360 --> 00:21:24,190 and how it works and maybe help try to adapt it to how it would 351 00:21:24,200 --> 00:21:27,770 work in their particular constitutional or legal system. 352 00:21:27,840 --> 00:21:32,730 And so from a comparative law perspective, we often talk about 353 00:21:32,740 --> 00:21:36,490 how transplants, we use kind of the metaphor of organ 354 00:21:36,500 --> 00:21:40,380 transplants in the human body. They often illicit and allergic 355 00:21:40,390 --> 00:21:44,740 reaction and a rejection a reaction and you have to be very 356 00:21:44,750 --> 00:21:47,600 careful when you're trying to do transplants that you don't 357 00:21:47,610 --> 00:21:52,580 elicit A rejection impulse from the the new body. 358 00:21:52,590 --> 00:21:57,580 And and for the most part, we're not going to be the best experts 359 00:21:57,650 --> 00:22:04,760 on figuring out exactly how to adapt, you know, a solution from 360 00:22:04,770 --> 00:22:11,160 another system into a into. But if you look globally, almost 361 00:22:11,170 --> 00:22:18,380 every constitution that has been written since 1948 and almost 362 00:22:18,390 --> 00:22:21,560 all of the constitutions of the world have been written since 363 00:22:21,570 --> 00:22:26,820 1948 draw heavily upon the human rights instrument. 364 00:22:26,870 --> 00:22:32,560 And so there's a lot of consistency across the world on 365 00:22:32,630 --> 00:22:35,760 at least constitutional provisions, and they draw 366 00:22:35,770 --> 00:22:39,140 heavily upon the international human rights instruments. 367 00:22:39,150 --> 00:22:41,350 Fantastic. Well, I really appreciated it 368 00:22:41,360 --> 00:22:45,120 that the podcast definitely has a great benefit of having you 369 00:22:45,130 --> 00:22:48,220 here as a religious freedom scholar sharing what very much 370 00:22:48,230 --> 00:22:52,200 feels like, you know, a very instructional class for 371 00:22:52,210 --> 00:22:54,620 everyone. So what a privilege should be 372 00:22:54,670 --> 00:22:56,980 hearing from you in the podcast today. 373 00:22:56,990 --> 00:22:58,240 Really. Thank you so much. 374 00:22:58,250 --> 00:23:01,870 And you've spoken about the importance of human dignity as 375 00:23:01,880 --> 00:23:04,270 well. I know there is many different 376 00:23:04,280 --> 00:23:07,310 works in which you you have been involved, including the Point of 377 00:23:07,320 --> 00:23:11,670 the West Declaration and other works regarding human dignity 378 00:23:11,720 --> 00:23:15,010 and the role of religious voices in building peace. 379 00:23:15,060 --> 00:23:17,750 So I wanted to know, from your perspective, what does that 380 00:23:17,760 --> 00:23:22,040 meaningful engagement with those voices actually look like when 381 00:23:22,050 --> 00:23:25,900 it comes to practice? Well, about 8 years ago, we were 382 00:23:25,910 --> 00:23:29,950 trying to think of what we could do to help commemorate the 70th 383 00:23:29,960 --> 00:23:33,210 anniversary of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. 384 00:23:33,260 --> 00:23:38,890 So this was all the way back in 2018 and we were brainstorming 385 00:23:38,900 --> 00:23:42,450 with Jan Figel, who at the time was the special envoy, the 386 00:23:42,460 --> 00:23:47,120 freedom of religion or belief outside the European Union. 387 00:23:47,170 --> 00:23:52,240 Now that titles the mouthful. What he was experiencing was a 388 00:23:52,250 --> 00:23:56,420 lot of difficulty talking about religious freedom in various 389 00:23:56,430 --> 00:24:00,110 places in the world where there were a lot of problems with 390 00:24:00,120 --> 00:24:03,300 religious freedom. And he's having an experience in 391 00:24:03,310 --> 00:24:06,120 Pakistan in particular that he told us about. 392 00:24:06,130 --> 00:24:09,820 And when he shifted the conversation from religious 393 00:24:09,830 --> 00:24:13,970 freedom to human dignity, he got a very different reaction from 394 00:24:13,980 --> 00:24:18,660 the officials in Pakistan. Instead of sort of a defensive 395 00:24:18,670 --> 00:24:24,700 withdrawal, he got an openness where they said Karama dignity. 396 00:24:24,710 --> 00:24:28,330 That's a concept in our holy book, the Koran. 397 00:24:28,400 --> 00:24:30,790 Why don't you come and we can talk. 398 00:24:30,860 --> 00:24:35,170 And so human dignity became a door opener and a bridge 399 00:24:35,180 --> 00:24:37,690 builder. And so we began focusing on 400 00:24:37,700 --> 00:24:41,030 human dignity. And what we learned is that 401 00:24:41,040 --> 00:24:44,110 during the drafting of the Universal Declaration of Human 402 00:24:44,120 --> 00:24:50,330 Rights in 1947, early 1948, human dignity really served a 403 00:24:50,340 --> 00:24:55,450 very prominent role in facilitating the agreement and 404 00:24:55,460 --> 00:25:01,430 the consensus that was generated around the thirty articles that 405 00:25:01,440 --> 00:25:04,130 became the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. 406 00:25:04,200 --> 00:25:07,390 And if you look at the first sentence of the preamble of the 407 00:25:07,400 --> 00:25:12,620 DHR, if you look at article one of the UDHR, they both begin 408 00:25:12,630 --> 00:25:16,950 with human dignity. And so we thought, what if our 409 00:25:16,960 --> 00:25:24,070 Era 2 needs a return to that very basic principle to in a 410 00:25:24,080 --> 00:25:27,630 way, hit the reset button on human rights, which have become 411 00:25:27,640 --> 00:25:31,350 quite politicized and divisive in many ways. 412 00:25:31,420 --> 00:25:36,570 And so we held a series of conferences in 2018, culminating 413 00:25:36,580 --> 00:25:40,090 in a conference in Punta del Este that resulted in this 414 00:25:40,100 --> 00:25:44,090 declaration that you mentioned, the Punta del Este declaration 415 00:25:44,140 --> 00:25:46,690 on human dignity for everyone everywhere. 416 00:25:46,740 --> 00:25:51,870 This right here is a brochure that emerged from that effort 417 00:25:51,940 --> 00:25:56,020 that has gone in and out of dozens of printings that just 418 00:25:56,030 --> 00:26:01,480 illustrates that declaration. But out of that effort, at a 419 00:26:01,490 --> 00:26:04,310 conference that we helped organize in Africa, there 420 00:26:04,320 --> 00:26:08,180 emerged a companion declaration on African Perspectives on Human 421 00:26:08,190 --> 00:26:10,420 Dignity. And what was interesting is how 422 00:26:10,430 --> 00:26:14,020 different that document was, because it turns out that the 423 00:26:14,030 --> 00:26:18,180 way scholars in Africa were thinking about human dignity was 424 00:26:18,190 --> 00:26:23,300 quite different than the way that the predominantly Western. 425 00:26:23,310 --> 00:26:26,980 We had tried to be very inclusive, but the Punta del 426 00:26:26,990 --> 00:26:30,000 Este Declaration discussion nevertheless had been quite 427 00:26:30,010 --> 00:26:33,010 Western and academic in its focus. 428 00:26:33,020 --> 00:26:37,730 And the African discussion was much richer in a way, and much 429 00:26:37,740 --> 00:26:42,470 more diverse and much more grounded in life and reality. 430 00:26:42,480 --> 00:26:46,410 And from that declaration, we helped organize a book on 431 00:26:46,420 --> 00:26:50,410 African perspectives on human dignity and later a project on 432 00:26:50,420 --> 00:26:52,830 Asian perspectives on human dignity. 433 00:26:52,900 --> 00:26:56,530 And that project has just resulted in a book that was 434 00:26:56,540 --> 00:27:00,470 published in January of this year on Asian perspectives on 435 00:27:00,480 --> 00:27:02,770 human dignity. And we're working on a project 436 00:27:02,780 --> 00:27:05,350 on Islamic perspectives on human dignity. 437 00:27:05,460 --> 00:27:08,930 And we've done one on perspectives from Oceania on 438 00:27:08,940 --> 00:27:11,420 human dignity. And this summer at Oxford, we're 439 00:27:11,430 --> 00:27:14,810 going to be doing a conference on Indigenous perspectives on 440 00:27:14,820 --> 00:27:17,770 human dignity. Now, why all of these different 441 00:27:17,780 --> 00:27:20,230 projects? It's not so that we can 442 00:27:20,280 --> 00:27:24,670 eventually come to 1 imperial definition of human dignity. 443 00:27:24,720 --> 00:27:28,730 It's so that we can listen to each other and learn from each 444 00:27:28,740 --> 00:27:31,170 other and get to know each other. 445 00:27:31,220 --> 00:27:36,250 Because what we need to do, what human dignity invites us to do, 446 00:27:36,300 --> 00:27:40,330 is to see each other deeply and to listen to each other deeply. 447 00:27:40,340 --> 00:27:45,290 And it's interesting how thoroughly we have failed to do 448 00:27:45,300 --> 00:27:47,970 them, even with the concept of human dignity. 449 00:27:47,980 --> 00:27:52,860 So if we truly believed in human dignity, at the very least we 450 00:27:52,870 --> 00:27:56,550 would be asking each other, what does human dignity mean to you? 451 00:27:56,600 --> 00:27:59,030 And we would be listening to each other. 452 00:27:59,100 --> 00:28:07,120 And so if we do that, what does is it helps us learn to value 453 00:28:07,190 --> 00:28:10,920 and to see each other deeply as human beings. 454 00:28:11,010 --> 00:28:15,500 And if we do that, something important happens it it makes it 455 00:28:15,510 --> 00:28:19,060 possible for us to begin solving hard problems. 456 00:28:19,110 --> 00:28:22,760 That's why when I was making this presentation to the United 457 00:28:22,770 --> 00:28:25,680 Nations Human Rights Council recently, I was pointing out 458 00:28:25,690 --> 00:28:29,040 that human dignity was the missing one of two missing 459 00:28:29,130 --> 00:28:33,220 elements of their resolution on a human rights culture of peace. 460 00:28:33,370 --> 00:28:37,380 Because it's human dignity that was the foundational principle 461 00:28:37,390 --> 00:28:40,700 for human rights. And it's human dignity that will 462 00:28:40,710 --> 00:28:43,940 allow us to genuinely create cultures of peace. 463 00:28:43,990 --> 00:28:47,590 Because if we really see each other and listen to each other 464 00:28:47,600 --> 00:28:50,270 deeply, that's where peacemaking will. 465 00:28:50,320 --> 00:28:53,330 That's when we have a chance. It's not gonna like work like an 466 00:28:53,340 --> 00:28:57,050 algorithm to create peaceful societies, but it gives us a 467 00:28:57,060 --> 00:29:01,490 chance to create peaceful societies if we see each other 468 00:29:01,500 --> 00:29:04,110 that way, if we listen to each other that way. 469 00:29:04,200 --> 00:29:08,790 And so This is why we're working on these multiple projects on 470 00:29:08,800 --> 00:29:12,830 human dignity, because we we have failed to do this. 471 00:29:12,840 --> 00:29:15,210 And we think it's important that we try. 472 00:29:15,280 --> 00:29:19,810 Fantastic, fantastic. So I was actually seeing that in 473 00:29:19,820 --> 00:29:22,090 a recent discussion you had mentioned that one of the 474 00:29:22,100 --> 00:29:26,600 biggest obstacles to peace would be that people or interests that 475 00:29:26,610 --> 00:29:28,910 do not want peace. So I really appreciate you 476 00:29:28,920 --> 00:29:33,320 bringing up the idea of how peace, building, human dignity, 477 00:29:33,370 --> 00:29:36,970 all of those come together. I find that quite fascinating 478 00:29:36,980 --> 00:29:40,100 that we start a conversation about, you know, coming to work, 479 00:29:40,110 --> 00:29:43,250 being a person of faith, having a backgrounding law, and then we 480 00:29:43,260 --> 00:29:47,080 get to the point of human dignity and peacemaking. 481 00:29:47,090 --> 00:29:49,560 It's it's just incredible. I'm curious here. 482 00:29:49,570 --> 00:29:54,360 How should lawyers, scholars, policymakers respond to that 483 00:29:54,370 --> 00:29:58,360 reality while still holding on to principles like human dignity 484 00:29:58,370 --> 00:30:01,540 and justice? So it's easy to be sort of 485 00:30:01,550 --> 00:30:06,460 platitudinous and superficial when we talk about these things. 486 00:30:06,470 --> 00:30:10,830 And I, I don't want to fall into that pattern, but think it, I 487 00:30:10,840 --> 00:30:14,410 think it goes back to what we were talking about at the 488 00:30:14,420 --> 00:30:19,350 beginning about authenticity. I think that if, if each of us 489 00:30:19,400 --> 00:30:24,810 is living the best version of what we truly believe, that's 490 00:30:24,880 --> 00:30:28,510 step number one. You know, our centre produced a 491 00:30:28,520 --> 00:30:33,320 brochure a few years ago about what you can do to help promote 492 00:30:33,330 --> 00:30:36,390 religious freedom and had ten ideas on it. 493 00:30:36,400 --> 00:30:38,410 And they were pretty practical things. 494 00:30:38,420 --> 00:30:42,750 It was in something network, get to know your neighbors, know 495 00:30:42,760 --> 00:30:47,190 there were ideas about, you know, things to read and so 496 00:30:47,200 --> 00:30:49,480 forth. And one morning I was, I was 497 00:30:49,490 --> 00:30:52,600 actually in the shower and I thought to myself, I had one of 498 00:30:52,610 --> 00:30:54,930 those light bulb moments. And I don't have those very 499 00:30:54,940 --> 00:30:58,690 often, but I actually had a, a light bulb moment and it was, it 500 00:30:58,700 --> 00:31:02,250 was like this insight that once you have it, you can't unhack 501 00:31:02,260 --> 00:31:04,510 it. And it was the most important 502 00:31:04,520 --> 00:31:07,910 thing you can do to promote religious freedom is to live 503 00:31:07,920 --> 00:31:10,710 your own faith in its best version. 504 00:31:10,720 --> 00:31:15,590 And to me, that seems so obvious now that it occurred to me or 505 00:31:15,600 --> 00:31:21,020 that it it came to me and I looked at my list, our list, and 506 00:31:21,030 --> 00:31:24,590 it was nowhere to be found. And I felt foolish because that 507 00:31:24,600 --> 00:31:27,670 seems to me to be so obvious that the most important thing we 508 00:31:27,680 --> 00:31:32,170 can do if we want to promote religious freedom is live the 509 00:31:32,180 --> 00:31:35,730 best version of our faith. Because why do we value 510 00:31:35,740 --> 00:31:37,840 religious freedom? It's because of the good that 511 00:31:37,850 --> 00:31:41,240 religion does in the world and the good that religion does in 512 00:31:41,250 --> 00:31:43,290 the world. The best way for people to see 513 00:31:43,300 --> 00:31:47,870 and appreciate that is if I'm a religious person and they see me 514 00:31:47,880 --> 00:31:51,500 living a religious life and they say that is something we should 515 00:31:51,510 --> 00:31:54,190 encourage. That is not something that is 516 00:31:54,200 --> 00:31:57,590 dangerous. That is not something that is to 517 00:31:57,600 --> 00:32:01,640 be suppressed or to be marginalized. 518 00:32:01,650 --> 00:32:05,950 That is something that we want to be transmitted to the next 519 00:32:05,960 --> 00:32:09,150 generation. And so lately I've been talking 520 00:32:09,160 --> 00:32:12,370 much more about the virtues of religious freedom. 521 00:32:12,460 --> 00:32:16,210 What kind of people will we inculcate if we value religious 522 00:32:16,220 --> 00:32:17,770 freedom? What are the virtues of the 523 00:32:17,780 --> 00:32:22,490 head, the heart and the hand that will inculcate if we value 524 00:32:22,560 --> 00:32:25,360 religious freedom? And I think those are real. 525 00:32:25,430 --> 00:32:30,740 But the most important thing we can do to integrate faith into 526 00:32:30,750 --> 00:32:33,960 our professional lives, I believe, is just live the best 527 00:32:33,970 --> 00:32:38,430 version of our faith and to do it not obnoxiously. 528 00:32:38,490 --> 00:32:42,560 I have a friend, Judge Thomas Griffith, who has a cartoon that 529 00:32:42,570 --> 00:32:44,220 I believe came out of The New Yorker. 530 00:32:44,230 --> 00:32:47,340 And it's a person who's before the bar of Saint Peter. 531 00:32:47,350 --> 00:32:50,860 And Saint Peter is saying, yes, yes, yes, you were a good 532 00:32:50,870 --> 00:32:54,200 Christian, but did you have to be so obnoxious about it? 533 00:32:54,290 --> 00:32:58,820 And he uses that as an example of the wrong way to live your 534 00:32:58,830 --> 00:33:01,560 faith. And so, you know, I think we can 535 00:33:01,610 --> 00:33:05,740 and should live our faith out loud, but we should live the 536 00:33:05,750 --> 00:33:08,780 best versions of our faith. And the best versions of our 537 00:33:08,790 --> 00:33:12,290 faith are not going to be obnoxious, let alone noxious. 538 00:33:12,300 --> 00:33:16,380 And there are certainly versions of each of our faith traditions 539 00:33:16,430 --> 00:33:20,200 that are appalling. And those versions of our faith 540 00:33:20,210 --> 00:33:23,030 traditions ought not to be lived out loud. 541 00:33:23,090 --> 00:33:25,240 And, you know, they can be dangerous. 542 00:33:25,250 --> 00:33:30,160 And we see examples of that on on often both sides of 543 00:33:30,270 --> 00:33:33,110 conflicts, both historical and contemporary. 544 00:33:33,170 --> 00:33:37,980 And so it's not that, you know, faith is an unadulterated good, 545 00:33:37,990 --> 00:33:43,200 but the best versions of nearly every faith I'm familiar with is 546 00:33:43,210 --> 00:33:46,450 very good. So for most of us, living the 547 00:33:46,460 --> 00:33:49,420 best version of our faith is probably the best thing we can. 548 00:33:49,430 --> 00:33:52,050 Do fantastic. No, I really appreciate that and 549 00:33:52,060 --> 00:33:56,010 I think that there really ties in with what I'd like to wrap up 550 00:33:56,020 --> 00:33:58,810 this episode asking you. You mentioned a little bit about 551 00:33:58,820 --> 00:34:02,190 your personal experience and after all these years, you know, 552 00:34:02,200 --> 00:34:05,190 probably seeing many other examples of how people leave 553 00:34:05,200 --> 00:34:07,410 their faith throughout their legal career. 554 00:34:07,480 --> 00:34:11,250 I wouldn't you ask you for young lawyers who might be thinking of 555 00:34:11,260 --> 00:34:15,639 I want to leave out my faith, my moral convictions in my legal 556 00:34:15,650 --> 00:34:17,469 career. Is there any kind of practical 557 00:34:17,480 --> 00:34:20,239 advice that you would offer based on that journey? 558 00:34:20,400 --> 00:34:24,489 I said earlier, I don't think there's one-size-fits-all in 559 00:34:24,500 --> 00:34:31,190 terms of the workplace and how prominently your faith factors 560 00:34:31,199 --> 00:34:37,840 in sort of how vocally or transparently outwardly you live 561 00:34:37,850 --> 00:34:41,969 your faith. But I believe that being true to 562 00:34:41,980 --> 00:34:46,420 your faith is something that we can all do, even if we're not 563 00:34:46,429 --> 00:34:49,480 being flamboyant in the way that we do it. 564 00:34:49,550 --> 00:34:53,239 I talked about being more confident in, in sharing my 565 00:34:53,250 --> 00:34:57,980 faith and manifesting my faith today than I did earlier in my 566 00:34:57,990 --> 00:35:01,300 life. But still, I don't do it in ways 567 00:35:01,310 --> 00:35:06,640 that are dramatic or showy. To me, the best version of my 568 00:35:06,650 --> 00:35:10,260 faith is pretty quiet when it's it's, it's pretty subdued. 569 00:35:10,310 --> 00:35:14,510 Now that may be different for other people, but my version of 570 00:35:14,520 --> 00:35:19,330 the best version of my faith is a pretty respectful and pretty 571 00:35:19,480 --> 00:35:23,090 gentle. And so I'm not a large public 572 00:35:23,100 --> 00:35:27,090 manifestations of my faith. I don't mind others who are, you 573 00:35:27,100 --> 00:35:31,130 know, more outwardly observant. Certainly, you know, I have a 574 00:35:31,140 --> 00:35:35,390 lot of friends who are much more outwardly manifesting their 575 00:35:35,400 --> 00:35:38,310 faith than I do and I don't mind that. 576 00:35:38,380 --> 00:35:42,640 But it outward manifestation of my faith is pretty quiet, I 577 00:35:42,650 --> 00:35:46,490 think. And that is, I think in part due 578 00:35:46,500 --> 00:35:50,570 to my faith tradition and probably in part due to who I am 579 00:35:50,580 --> 00:35:54,350 as a person. And so again, I think my primary 580 00:35:54,360 --> 00:36:00,350 counsel or my primary idea would be to live authentically and to 581 00:36:00,360 --> 00:36:04,110 live the best version of what you believe. 582 00:36:04,120 --> 00:36:08,970 One of the advantages of interfaith dialogue is that when 583 00:36:08,980 --> 00:36:12,910 we put on the table what we believe, we may not convince 584 00:36:12,920 --> 00:36:17,450 others that what we believe is true, but we we hold out a 585 00:36:17,460 --> 00:36:20,610 marker of what others can expect of us. 586 00:36:20,620 --> 00:36:25,670 Because if we say, I believe we are created in the image of God, 587 00:36:25,680 --> 00:36:30,510 that gives others a right to expect of me, that I will treat 588 00:36:30,520 --> 00:36:34,130 others as if they are created in the image of God. 589 00:36:34,180 --> 00:36:39,030 And so that is meaningful even if someone else might say, well, 590 00:36:39,040 --> 00:36:42,490 I don't believe we're created in the image of God, but if I 591 00:36:42,500 --> 00:36:48,080 believe it, they can have an expectation of me that I live as 592 00:36:48,090 --> 00:36:53,260 if I believe it. And so I think if all of us try 593 00:36:53,270 --> 00:36:57,920 to live up to what we profess to believe, the world is going to 594 00:36:57,930 --> 00:37:01,580 be a much different place. Amazing, I really appreciate you 595 00:37:01,590 --> 00:37:05,240 taking the time to come into podcast and to share some about 596 00:37:05,250 --> 00:37:10,340 your work, your personal story, and especially your perception 597 00:37:10,350 --> 00:37:14,380 of faith and, and how he plays a role in a lawyer's professional 598 00:37:14,390 --> 00:37:17,300 life in the legal field. So thank you so much for for 599 00:37:17,310 --> 00:37:19,500 coming into the show today. Professor Sharps. 600 00:37:19,510 --> 00:37:21,780 Thanks Claudia, and congratulations on this 601 00:37:21,790 --> 00:37:24,020 undertaking. I commend you for it and wish 602 00:37:24,030 --> 00:37:26,440 you all the best with it. Much appreciated. 603 00:37:26,530 --> 00:37:29,190 Thank you all for tuning in and listening to this episode 2.