1 00:00:16,400 --> 00:00:19,380 Hello everybody, Welcome to another episode of studying Law 2 00:00:19,390 --> 00:00:21,910 around the world. Today I have the opportunity to 3 00:00:21,920 --> 00:00:25,160 interview Marco Falco. Marco has an incredible 4 00:00:25,170 --> 00:00:29,520 experience and story. He's a proud UFT alumni all the 5 00:00:29,530 --> 00:00:33,710 way from bachelors to his JD and one who has been very active in 6 00:00:33,720 --> 00:00:36,610 the universities activities as well. 7 00:00:36,620 --> 00:00:39,810 And also he's a partner at Talking Mains and works 8 00:00:39,820 --> 00:00:43,410 especially with appellate work. So just wanted to really thank 9 00:00:43,420 --> 00:00:45,800 you for your time and appreciate you joining us today. 10 00:00:45,810 --> 00:00:46,590 Thank. You, Marco. 11 00:00:46,660 --> 00:00:49,320 Thanks so much, Claudio. It's a sincere pleasure and 12 00:00:49,330 --> 00:00:52,650 honor to be here today. I'm happy to be part of this 13 00:00:52,660 --> 00:00:54,760 initiative and and the podcast generally. 14 00:00:54,770 --> 00:00:56,960 Thank you so much. Can you tell us a little bit 15 00:00:56,970 --> 00:00:59,260 about yourself to start off this episode? 16 00:00:59,330 --> 00:01:02,520 Yeah, of course. I'm so born, bred and raised in 17 00:01:02,530 --> 00:01:06,400 Toronto in Townsview, very middle class background. 18 00:01:06,470 --> 00:01:09,780 I'm a proud member of the LGBT community as well. 19 00:01:09,790 --> 00:01:14,180 So I effectively started my sort of legal journey back in 20 00:01:14,190 --> 00:01:16,520 undergrad at the University of Toronto. 21 00:01:16,530 --> 00:01:20,340 I did a specialist degree in English literature with a major 22 00:01:20,350 --> 00:01:24,300 in Italian literature. I went on after that to complete 23 00:01:24,310 --> 00:01:28,280 my masters degree in English at the University of Toronto as 24 00:01:28,290 --> 00:01:31,680 well. And then following that, I was 25 00:01:31,690 --> 00:01:34,630 really interested in pursuing the PhD route. 26 00:01:34,680 --> 00:01:37,930 I really wanted to become an English professor and I really 27 00:01:37,940 --> 00:01:41,110 wanted to become an English professor of American 28 00:01:41,120 --> 00:01:43,640 literature. So after my masters, I had 29 00:01:43,650 --> 00:01:47,230 applied to several Ivy Leagues in the United States. 30 00:01:47,240 --> 00:01:52,410 And this is a lesson about why certain life trajectories aren't 31 00:01:52,420 --> 00:01:55,750 necessarily failures when when you see them as such in your 32 00:01:55,760 --> 00:01:58,260 trees. But I didn't get in to any of 33 00:01:58,270 --> 00:02:01,370 the PhD programs I wanted. I think I got shortlisted for 34 00:02:01,380 --> 00:02:04,110 one of the Ivy Leagues. And as a consequence of that, I 35 00:02:04,120 --> 00:02:09,169 had banked my L SAT several years ago prior to that during 36 00:02:09,180 --> 00:02:13,390 my undergrad, and I wasn't exactly sure what I was going to 37 00:02:13,400 --> 00:02:15,510 do. I was accepted at the University 38 00:02:15,520 --> 00:02:18,090 of Toronto PhD program in English literature. 39 00:02:18,100 --> 00:02:22,500 And so I thought, OK, I'll just continue my merry way at U of T 40 00:02:22,510 --> 00:02:24,780 in English. But the market was not 41 00:02:24,790 --> 00:02:28,500 particularly good for humanities professors at the time that I 42 00:02:28,510 --> 00:02:30,820 graduated in the in the early 2000s. 43 00:02:30,940 --> 00:02:34,720 And so with that, I always had an interest in reading and 44 00:02:34,730 --> 00:02:38,360 writing and so forth. So I thought, let me parlay this 45 00:02:38,370 --> 00:02:41,200 and let me see if the University of Toronto will take a late 46 00:02:41,270 --> 00:02:43,610 application to the Faculty of Law. 47 00:02:43,620 --> 00:02:47,520 And fortunately I had, but there were amazing administrative 48 00:02:47,530 --> 00:02:51,960 staff who worked at the faculty and somehow did their magic. 49 00:02:52,030 --> 00:02:56,180 And the next thing you know, I was enrolled in the JD program 50 00:02:56,190 --> 00:02:59,360 at the University of Toronto and completed a law degree. 51 00:02:59,370 --> 00:03:03,320 I will say that I sort of sat in law school for the first three 52 00:03:03,330 --> 00:03:07,440 months and wondered what I was doing there and why I wasn't 53 00:03:07,450 --> 00:03:11,090 pursuing studies and Chaucer and Shakespeare and the things that 54 00:03:11,100 --> 00:03:13,880 really, really interested me and why am I looking at supply 55 00:03:13,890 --> 00:03:19,000 demand for curves in contract law and studying the law of the 56 00:03:19,010 --> 00:03:21,480 law and economics of Canadian contracts. 57 00:03:21,490 --> 00:03:26,120 So it took a while and then I suddenly sort of felt 58 00:03:26,130 --> 00:03:30,340 reinvigorated intellectually. And I would say by about the 59 00:03:30,350 --> 00:03:35,100 spring, I really started to take a deep and abiding interest in 60 00:03:35,110 --> 00:03:38,470 in the law, how it works. One of my amazing professors at 61 00:03:38,480 --> 00:03:41,660 the Faculty of Law once said to me, the light bulb will go on 62 00:03:42,300 --> 00:03:45,030 and it probably won't go off until March or April. 63 00:03:45,040 --> 00:03:47,610 But when it does, you'll start to understand how all these 64 00:03:47,620 --> 00:03:50,550 various puzzle pieces that you've been introduced to fit 65 00:03:50,560 --> 00:03:52,510 together. And literally that moment does 66 00:03:52,520 --> 00:03:54,390 happen. And suddenly it makes sense. 67 00:03:54,400 --> 00:03:57,210 Like, oh, there's this thing called contract law and tort law 68 00:03:57,340 --> 00:03:59,760 and criminal law and constitutional law. 69 00:03:59,770 --> 00:04:03,030 And how do they, how do they all operate as a unified pole in a 70 00:04:03,040 --> 00:04:06,650 democratic society? And so that that is effectively 71 00:04:06,840 --> 00:04:09,560 my journey. And then I essentially started 72 00:04:09,570 --> 00:04:11,330 as a summer student at Torkin Manes. 73 00:04:11,340 --> 00:04:14,790 And here we are 20 something years out. 74 00:04:14,800 --> 00:04:17,829 I don't want to think about it, but I was born, bred and raised 75 00:04:17,839 --> 00:04:19,430 here. And I'm a proud member of the 76 00:04:19,440 --> 00:04:22,029 firm and now a partner who practices in appellate 77 00:04:22,040 --> 00:04:25,250 litigation and judicial review. So that's how I ended up here. 78 00:04:25,260 --> 00:04:27,390 And that's that's me. Perhaps a long winded 79 00:04:28,720 --> 00:04:31,340 explanation? No, that's fantastic. 80 00:04:31,350 --> 00:04:34,800 I'm, I'm glad to always hear a little more about your story and 81 00:04:35,110 --> 00:04:38,300 especially how maybe law not being your first choice and that 82 00:04:38,310 --> 00:04:42,220 being a very successful 1. So that's always encouraging to 83 00:04:42,390 --> 00:04:46,340 hear and to learn and you've built a strong practice doing 84 00:04:46,350 --> 00:04:50,200 appellate litigation, judicial reveal and I'd love to hear a 85 00:04:50,210 --> 00:04:52,810 little more about that. What led you to focus on this 86 00:04:52,820 --> 00:04:55,240 area of law after? All it's really interesting. 87 00:04:55,250 --> 00:04:59,530 Not none of it was intuitive. I didn't come to my firm, you 88 00:04:59,540 --> 00:05:03,120 know, imagining that this would be my career sort of 20 years 89 00:05:03,130 --> 00:05:04,840 out. I thought it probably would have 90 00:05:04,850 --> 00:05:07,570 ended up in something a little more traditional like commercial 91 00:05:07,580 --> 00:05:11,040 litigation or some type of general litigation, health law 92 00:05:11,050 --> 00:05:14,840 and so forth. The way that it kind of evolved 93 00:05:14,850 --> 00:05:19,010 was that I suddenly took more of an interest, I would say, in 94 00:05:19,020 --> 00:05:23,210 reading and writing about the law and not to say that facts 95 00:05:23,220 --> 00:05:25,370 and evidence and so forth are not important. 96 00:05:25,380 --> 00:05:29,070 They in fact drive all the decisions that that I argue. 97 00:05:29,080 --> 00:05:33,250 But I had a particular interest in wanting to pursue the law 98 00:05:33,260 --> 00:05:36,710 proper. And so I naturally gravitated 99 00:05:36,760 --> 00:05:39,690 towards the partners that had practices and things like public 100 00:05:39,700 --> 00:05:43,250 law, administrative law, and who appeared before the Divisional 101 00:05:43,260 --> 00:05:46,960 Court and the Court of Appeal. And that intellectual hook, I 102 00:05:46,970 --> 00:05:49,570 think got me. The beauty of what I do is that 103 00:05:49,580 --> 00:05:53,350 because I am a generalist, which is somewhat of a rarity in our 104 00:05:53,360 --> 00:05:56,100 perfection, everyone's specializes in everything these 105 00:05:56,110 --> 00:05:58,070 days. But because I am a bit of a 106 00:05:58,080 --> 00:06:01,130 generalist, it means that every day something new is landing on 107 00:06:01,140 --> 00:06:04,820 my plate and I could be arguing in an appeal in a construction 108 00:06:04,830 --> 00:06:07,680 litigation matter and the next day be doing something in civil 109 00:06:07,690 --> 00:06:10,640 sexual assault. So it runs the gamut. 110 00:06:10,650 --> 00:06:14,880 And the skill set that I bring to it is that both clients and, 111 00:06:14,890 --> 00:06:19,400 and my fellow partners around here rely on me to sort of have 112 00:06:19,410 --> 00:06:22,920 a knowledge of how appellate litigation works, how the 113 00:06:22,930 --> 00:06:26,260 divisional court works, what are the judges actually looking for? 114 00:06:26,270 --> 00:06:30,580 And because this is a second kick at the can, effectively, it 115 00:06:30,590 --> 00:06:34,020 also sort of draws in how a judge may have gotten the 116 00:06:34,030 --> 00:06:36,080 underlying decision right or wrong, which to me is 117 00:06:36,090 --> 00:06:40,110 fascinating because it involves a whole other intellectual 118 00:06:40,120 --> 00:06:42,790 exercise that I think is sometimes not available 119 00:06:42,850 --> 00:06:45,680 naturally at the trial level, but certainly on appeal. 120 00:06:45,750 --> 00:06:48,750 That's fantastic getting you a little bit about your story, a 121 00:06:48,760 --> 00:06:51,270 little bit about, you know, the area you specialize in. 122 00:06:51,280 --> 00:06:55,170 Another, I feel like a highlight of your resume and all of that 123 00:06:55,180 --> 00:06:58,090 is that you've been very involved in various mentorship 124 00:06:58,100 --> 00:07:01,090 programs in the University of Toronto and outside of it as 125 00:07:01,100 --> 00:07:05,810 well recently, I think a chapter of the Italian students and just 126 00:07:05,820 --> 00:07:07,510 so many amazing different things. 127 00:07:07,620 --> 00:07:10,810 And I'd love to hear a little more about what inspired you to 128 00:07:10,820 --> 00:07:14,110 become a mentor and to be so committed to giving back to the 129 00:07:14,120 --> 00:07:16,820 legal community. Thank you. 130 00:07:16,900 --> 00:07:20,190 I mean, I, I try to do my level best while managing a sort of 131 00:07:20,200 --> 00:07:23,450 practice on the side. It's a, it's a hard thing to do, 132 00:07:23,500 --> 00:07:26,040 but it's such an important thing to do it. 133 00:07:26,050 --> 00:07:31,010 Early on in my career, I had mentors both outside of my firm 134 00:07:31,220 --> 00:07:35,290 and within the firm itself who either showed me the ropes, 135 00:07:35,300 --> 00:07:37,950 taught me what makes an effective litigator and what 136 00:07:37,960 --> 00:07:41,910 makes for effective advocacy and taught me how to sort of cope 137 00:07:41,920 --> 00:07:44,850 from a life skills perspective. Anyone listening to this will 138 00:07:44,860 --> 00:07:48,370 know that litigation is not an easy swag. 139 00:07:48,420 --> 00:07:52,050 It's immensely stressful. It can sort of quite large 140 00:07:52,060 --> 00:07:55,170 demands on your life, on your mental health, on your 141 00:07:55,180 --> 00:07:58,610 well-being. Having a mentor in my view is 142 00:07:58,620 --> 00:08:01,470 sort of critical not only to sort of learn about the 143 00:08:01,480 --> 00:08:05,660 substance of litigation and how how you pursue those aspects of 144 00:08:05,670 --> 00:08:09,320 your career, but on a sort of personal level, having a 145 00:08:09,330 --> 00:08:12,480 sounding board for someone to say, you know it's going to be 146 00:08:12,490 --> 00:08:14,680 OK. This is how I cope with 147 00:08:14,690 --> 00:08:17,000 strengths. This is how I cope with multiple 148 00:08:17,010 --> 00:08:19,420 deadlines. This is how I cope when I'm 149 00:08:19,490 --> 00:08:22,500 losing a case on an appeal or have lost a case. 150 00:08:22,510 --> 00:08:24,360 This is how you deliver good news to a client. 151 00:08:24,370 --> 00:08:27,240 This is how you deliver bad news to a client. 152 00:08:27,310 --> 00:08:32,020 Having that type of sounding board was so important to to my 153 00:08:32,030 --> 00:08:34,919 career. So it was almost as though when 154 00:08:34,929 --> 00:08:38,600 I gravitated into this role as as mentor to both students 155 00:08:38,610 --> 00:08:42,419 within my firm, outside my firm within the faculty of law at the 156 00:08:42,429 --> 00:08:45,720 University of Toronto. You mentioned various other 157 00:08:45,730 --> 00:08:49,040 organizations, LGBT organizations where I try to 158 00:08:49,290 --> 00:08:52,350 mentor students and also students from historically 159 00:08:52,360 --> 00:08:56,130 disadvantaged groups who in my view need extra mentorship 160 00:08:56,140 --> 00:08:59,880 because they have to face other obstacles in addition to the 161 00:08:59,890 --> 00:09:03,850 difficulties of litigation. Having committed, having others 162 00:09:03,860 --> 00:09:07,910 commit their time and resources was so valuable to my career 163 00:09:07,920 --> 00:09:10,350 that it's not something I do because I feel it's an 164 00:09:10,360 --> 00:09:13,990 obligation and a duty. I do it because I love to see 165 00:09:14,000 --> 00:09:16,690 people thrive. And I cannot tell you how many 166 00:09:16,700 --> 00:09:20,060 students have walked across my desk and I later encounter them 167 00:09:20,070 --> 00:09:24,050 that the faculty of law or encounter them in litigation of. 168 00:09:24,060 --> 00:09:27,590 I've had people I've mentored actors opposing counsel against 169 00:09:27,600 --> 00:09:30,590 me, and it just warms my heart, even if I don't know agree with 170 00:09:30,600 --> 00:09:34,980 their positions. But it warms my heart because I 171 00:09:34,990 --> 00:09:39,120 love to see others thrive. And there's a lot of pessimism 172 00:09:39,130 --> 00:09:41,960 in the world these days. And I feel that committing 173 00:09:41,970 --> 00:09:47,370 yourself to optimism through mentorship is is a way to make 174 00:09:47,380 --> 00:09:50,450 the world better generally. And perhaps that's corny, but so 175 00:09:50,460 --> 00:09:53,060 be it. I love that it tells about how 176 00:09:53,070 --> 00:09:57,540 how genuine your efforts are and taking into consideration for 177 00:09:57,550 --> 00:09:59,220 for how long you've done this now. 178 00:09:59,230 --> 00:10:03,300 And I'm sure, you know, seeing students at your firm and all of 179 00:10:03,310 --> 00:10:06,720 that in this experience, what kind of advice do you usually 180 00:10:06,730 --> 00:10:10,730 give to law students or young professionals just starting out? 181 00:10:10,790 --> 00:10:14,060 It's an excellent question. I think that one of the most 182 00:10:14,070 --> 00:10:18,360 important things, well, two important things #1 figure out 183 00:10:18,370 --> 00:10:22,450 what your superpower is as a litigator, It's in my view, 184 00:10:22,460 --> 00:10:24,310 impossible to be good at everything. 185 00:10:24,320 --> 00:10:27,330 You can't be good at examinations, oral discovery, 186 00:10:27,460 --> 00:10:30,690 the written work that's involved drafting, and so forth. 187 00:10:30,700 --> 00:10:32,830 We all, we all have our strengths and weaknesses. 188 00:10:32,840 --> 00:10:36,250 We know where they lie. Work on your weaknesses and 189 00:10:36,260 --> 00:10:40,350 continue to educate yourself so that you can overcome those 190 00:10:40,360 --> 00:10:43,110 weaknesses. But most important, learn how to 191 00:10:43,120 --> 00:10:48,110 leverage your superpowers. I realized at a young age, given 192 00:10:48,120 --> 00:10:52,510 my background in English literature, that I loved reading 193 00:10:52,520 --> 00:10:54,860 and writing. And that was going to be where I 194 00:10:54,870 --> 00:10:57,250 was going to make my career. And I knew it was going to be 195 00:10:57,260 --> 00:10:59,750 some form and it was going to take some sort of shape. 196 00:10:59,760 --> 00:11:02,610 And it wasn't exactly 100% certain, but I knew that that 197 00:11:02,620 --> 00:11:04,510 was the skill set I needed to promote. 198 00:11:04,520 --> 00:11:07,600 And so I started to do things like write a lot and publish 199 00:11:07,610 --> 00:11:10,920 articles about various legal topics and sort of show the 200 00:11:10,930 --> 00:11:13,880 world at large. This is what I'm good at. 201 00:11:14,010 --> 00:11:17,680 And so if you're going to hire me as a client, this is what I 202 00:11:17,690 --> 00:11:20,020 will do for you. And then oral advocacy, of 203 00:11:20,030 --> 00:11:21,840 course, developed over time as well. 204 00:11:22,010 --> 00:11:25,240 My, my sort of strongest, strongest advice is figure out 205 00:11:25,250 --> 00:11:27,460 your superpower. And then the second sort of 206 00:11:27,830 --> 00:11:31,790 component of that is for someone to figure out what they love. 207 00:11:31,840 --> 00:11:36,600 And it's really hard in the law because you necessarily graduate 208 00:11:36,610 --> 00:11:39,340 with law school debt. So you figure, I'll take the 209 00:11:39,350 --> 00:11:42,540 first job that comes at me. I don't think that's a wise 210 00:11:42,550 --> 00:11:44,660 move. And I saw a lot of my friends 211 00:11:44,670 --> 00:11:47,920 sort of start at places that didn't seem particularly well 212 00:11:47,930 --> 00:11:50,450 suited to them. And they did a lot of shifting 213 00:11:50,460 --> 00:11:52,640 early on in their career as a consequence. 214 00:11:52,770 --> 00:11:55,090 You have to figure out what's going to make you tick. 215 00:11:55,140 --> 00:11:58,150 You know, it could be corporate law, It could be litigation 216 00:11:58,160 --> 00:12:02,250 generally, but this job is very, very difficult. 217 00:12:02,320 --> 00:12:04,060 You have to have a lot of friends in it. 218 00:12:04,070 --> 00:12:06,200 You have to have mentors. But the other thing you have to 219 00:12:06,210 --> 00:12:08,730 do is want to wake up in the morning to do it. 220 00:12:08,800 --> 00:12:12,830 And if you don't have that type of drive, if what you're doing 221 00:12:12,840 --> 00:12:16,540 seems utterly and completely meaningless to you, you will not 222 00:12:16,550 --> 00:12:20,060 thrive in this profession. You will just sort of do your 223 00:12:20,070 --> 00:12:23,670 work, get paid, go to court, walk out the door and live to 224 00:12:23,680 --> 00:12:26,750 see another day. And that's that's genuinely not 225 00:12:26,760 --> 00:12:28,050 something you want to be doing every. 226 00:12:28,060 --> 00:12:30,050 Day well, that makes a lot of sense. 227 00:12:30,180 --> 00:12:33,050 Appreciate you sharing those. And I feel like they they could 228 00:12:33,060 --> 00:12:35,870 definitely apply to a lot of different people getting to 229 00:12:35,880 --> 00:12:39,510 listen to this episode and even for myself here. 230 00:12:40,050 --> 00:12:42,900 And if we may go back a little bit to your practice. 231 00:12:42,910 --> 00:12:45,940 I know that your practice covers a lot of different things, 232 00:12:45,950 --> 00:12:48,580 including, you know, public commercial law issues. 233 00:12:48,590 --> 00:12:52,000 And you just said that being a generally something new comes up 234 00:12:52,010 --> 00:12:55,140 every day. So how do you approach such a 235 00:12:55,150 --> 00:12:57,940 complex matter in in specially at the appellate? 236 00:12:57,950 --> 00:13:00,200 Level. It's really hard and it's really 237 00:13:00,210 --> 00:13:03,210 interesting. The truth about that is 238 00:13:03,220 --> 00:13:06,450 genuinely, sometimes I get pulled into files and I know 239 00:13:06,500 --> 00:13:09,190 absolutely nothing about the subject matter. 240 00:13:09,200 --> 00:13:13,680 So there's a learning curve. And so you start with, you know, 241 00:13:13,690 --> 00:13:17,950 very basic things like let me Google what a debenture contract 242 00:13:18,000 --> 00:13:21,270 is and, and figure out and how that works or what's a 243 00:13:21,280 --> 00:13:23,950 syndicated loan. You know, there, there are many, 244 00:13:23,960 --> 00:13:27,510 there are many sort of things that sort of start you off. 245 00:13:27,520 --> 00:13:30,010 There's a lot of resources available and you might start 246 00:13:30,020 --> 00:13:33,170 with textbooks and so forth. And then once you have a clue, 247 00:13:33,220 --> 00:13:35,430 you can then go to the underlying judgment. 248 00:13:35,740 --> 00:13:39,770 Typically, most judges do an excellent job at first level of 249 00:13:39,780 --> 00:13:43,790 sort of setting out the legal issues, getting the reader 250 00:13:43,800 --> 00:13:47,570 acquainted with the facts. And you start with the record 251 00:13:47,580 --> 00:13:50,680 there. And over time, it's just a lot 252 00:13:50,690 --> 00:13:52,970 of reading and a lot of hard work. 253 00:13:53,030 --> 00:13:57,660 And suddenly you've gone from zero to 100 and you're before an 254 00:13:57,670 --> 00:14:00,730 appellate court where you know the judges are incredibly 255 00:14:00,740 --> 00:14:04,020 intelligent, will often have very pointed questions for you. 256 00:14:04,030 --> 00:14:07,000 There's, there's not a lot of room in, in appellate litigation 257 00:14:07,010 --> 00:14:09,760 to sort of sit there and make your arguments and resuscitate 258 00:14:09,770 --> 00:14:11,960 the facts. You usually get 3 minutes into 259 00:14:11,970 --> 00:14:14,560 your submissions and then the panel is just at you with a 260 00:14:14,570 --> 00:14:17,580 million questions because they know the material and they're 261 00:14:17,590 --> 00:14:21,360 incredibly smart and so forth. But I kind of have to remind 262 00:14:21,370 --> 00:14:24,640 myself, no matter how many, no matter how apprehensive I may be 263 00:14:24,650 --> 00:14:27,460 about my lack of knowledge, let's say at the outset of a 264 00:14:27,470 --> 00:14:31,000 file, I'm going to get to a place where the only other 265 00:14:31,010 --> 00:14:35,540 people as well versed in this material as I am usually my 266 00:14:35,550 --> 00:14:39,480 opposing counsel. It's amazing how the law works 267 00:14:39,490 --> 00:14:41,790 that way. And that's why I think, you 268 00:14:41,800 --> 00:14:45,570 know, training, learning how to tackle a case from the outside, 269 00:14:45,580 --> 00:14:48,110 particularly when you know nothing about it, and then 270 00:14:48,120 --> 00:14:51,090 suddenly becoming an authority to get to that transition 271 00:14:51,160 --> 00:14:54,750 involves a lot of time and it involves a lot of hard work. 272 00:14:54,820 --> 00:14:58,190 But effectively, the skill set is always the same. 273 00:14:58,200 --> 00:15:01,520 And at the appellate level and at the judicial review level, 274 00:15:01,640 --> 00:15:04,230 which you're fundamentally looking for the two to three 275 00:15:04,240 --> 00:15:07,150 issues that the court is going to entertain. 276 00:15:07,160 --> 00:15:11,930 So this isn't about rehashing, you know, a 20 day trial and 277 00:15:11,940 --> 00:15:15,050 going through every little piece of evidence and every little 278 00:15:15,060 --> 00:15:18,030 thing that the judge may or may have done right or wrong. 279 00:15:18,080 --> 00:15:22,290 It's literally about feeding the court legal questions and 280 00:15:22,300 --> 00:15:25,140 saying, this is where I think the judge right, right or wrong 281 00:15:25,150 --> 00:15:27,620 on two to three issues. And that's literally all you 282 00:15:27,630 --> 00:15:30,920 have time for. So it's amazing how that process 283 00:15:30,930 --> 00:15:32,930 evolves. And I've done it so many Times 284 00:15:32,940 --> 00:15:35,920 Now that I've literally have developed a system in a rhythm 285 00:15:35,930 --> 00:15:38,600 to how I, I tackle things. And sometimes my clients will 286 00:15:38,610 --> 00:15:40,970 come to me and they'll be like, OK, let's talk about this 287 00:15:40,980 --> 00:15:42,660 appeal. And this is how I want things to 288 00:15:42,670 --> 00:15:45,480 go and so forth. And I, I sort of have to walk 289 00:15:45,490 --> 00:15:49,800 them back and say, look, I, I appreciate how you want me to 290 00:15:49,810 --> 00:15:53,020 tackle this, but I need to explain to you, this is my 291 00:15:53,030 --> 00:15:55,580 system. So, you know, I'll, I'll need X 292 00:15:55,590 --> 00:15:57,870 amount of time to sort of familiarize myself with the 293 00:15:57,880 --> 00:15:59,980 file. And then we can meet and then we 294 00:15:59,990 --> 00:16:02,460 can talk and you can tell me your thoughts and then I'll tell 295 00:16:02,470 --> 00:16:04,980 you whether or not, you know, you've, you've got some merit 296 00:16:04,990 --> 00:16:07,100 here. It's a fascinating process. 297 00:16:07,110 --> 00:16:09,760 It's an intellectual process. And that's why I. 298 00:16:09,770 --> 00:16:11,280 Love that one. Fascinating. 299 00:16:11,290 --> 00:16:13,950 And I'm sure that over the years, different people have 300 00:16:13,960 --> 00:16:15,450 different personalities and all of that. 301 00:16:15,460 --> 00:16:18,250 But if you're if your work is just, you know, filling out a 302 00:16:18,260 --> 00:16:21,460 form or, you know, doing the same repeated work, it 303 00:16:21,470 --> 00:16:24,770 definitely gets old fast. So I feel like that's a way to 304 00:16:24,780 --> 00:16:29,190 keep very alive, right? That's amazing. 305 00:16:29,240 --> 00:16:32,870 Well, you were just saying how in in today's world, so much 306 00:16:32,880 --> 00:16:36,170 comes up, so many different cases end up landing at your 307 00:16:36,180 --> 00:16:38,930 table. And if I may ask as well, in 308 00:16:38,940 --> 00:16:42,830 regards to, you know, the evolution, technology, AI and so 309 00:16:42,840 --> 00:16:47,570 forth, is there any of that that you see applied in appellate 310 00:16:47,580 --> 00:16:50,710 work these days? And even about the row of 311 00:16:50,720 --> 00:16:54,430 appellate courts, do you see these evolving, Changing anyway? 312 00:16:54,520 --> 00:16:59,150 It's an excellent question. There's a lot I have to say 313 00:16:59,160 --> 00:17:02,470 about that. Artificial intelligence, I think 314 00:17:02,480 --> 00:17:06,650 is, is slowly but surely revolutionizing the profession. 315 00:17:06,700 --> 00:17:10,849 That being said, at the appellate level, what we have 316 00:17:10,859 --> 00:17:15,030 now is a sort of patchwork quilt of practice directions and 317 00:17:15,040 --> 00:17:17,569 regulations across the appeal courts in Canada. 318 00:17:17,880 --> 00:17:22,069 The genuineness is that the responsibility, and this is true 319 00:17:22,079 --> 00:17:25,190 of a Law Society of Ontario white paper that says this as 320 00:17:25,200 --> 00:17:29,590 well, the responsibility for ensuring the integrity of 321 00:17:29,600 --> 00:17:33,350 anything produced by AI remains with the lawyer. 322 00:17:33,360 --> 00:17:37,550 And so the appellate courts are saying that even if judges do 323 00:17:37,560 --> 00:17:39,830 want to use artificial intelligence, they have to be 324 00:17:39,840 --> 00:17:42,130 incredibly careful. Even though the matters coming 325 00:17:42,140 --> 00:17:44,630 before an appellate court are usually public record, they 326 00:17:44,640 --> 00:17:47,150 aren't always. And so judges have been 327 00:17:47,160 --> 00:17:52,220 cautioned about the sort of risks inherent in hallucinations 328 00:17:52,230 --> 00:17:55,780 and inaccuracies. The sort of second component of 329 00:17:55,790 --> 00:18:00,430 that is the sort of bias that can arise where artificial 330 00:18:00,440 --> 00:18:03,090 intelligence is being used and the decision making process. 331 00:18:03,100 --> 00:18:06,000 And it's actually interesting. I wrote a paper in the Advocates 332 00:18:06,010 --> 00:18:09,520 Quarterly last year about the effect of artificial 333 00:18:09,530 --> 00:18:12,290 intelligence on judicial review and administrative law and 334 00:18:12,300 --> 00:18:14,690 public law. There's a lot of opportunity 335 00:18:14,700 --> 00:18:17,050 there. You can imagine that a civil 336 00:18:17,060 --> 00:18:21,230 servant who, for example, has 800 cases in their caseload and 337 00:18:21,240 --> 00:18:25,480 has to make 800 decisions, would be particularly tempted to go 338 00:18:25,490 --> 00:18:28,510 find an artificial intelligence program that can maybe narrow 339 00:18:28,520 --> 00:18:31,350 things down, assist with the decision and so forth. 340 00:18:31,360 --> 00:18:35,270 But there are fundamentally a lot of problems with that. 341 00:18:35,470 --> 00:18:38,050 There's bias, there's inaccuracies, you know, there's 342 00:18:38,060 --> 00:18:40,940 the degree of reliance. There are disclosure issues. 343 00:18:40,950 --> 00:18:43,870 If you're a lawyer attacking a decision of an administrative 344 00:18:43,880 --> 00:18:46,830 tribunal and you know that tribunal has used artificial 345 00:18:46,840 --> 00:18:50,650 intelligence, I can tell you I would be demanding production of 346 00:18:50,660 --> 00:18:53,920 any form of artificial intelligence in the data sets 347 00:18:53,930 --> 00:18:57,910 that were used to achieve the decision and so forth to see if 348 00:18:57,920 --> 00:19:00,490 there's any, any grounds for attack. 349 00:19:00,560 --> 00:19:03,340 The really interesting question in my view is that appellate 350 00:19:03,350 --> 00:19:07,230 litigation and administrative law so far are very much based 351 00:19:07,240 --> 00:19:11,730 on a 20th century model that never contemplated the use of 352 00:19:11,740 --> 00:19:14,770 artificial intelligence in the decision making process. 353 00:19:15,160 --> 00:19:20,580 I think, and I at least argue in my paper that it's time to sort 354 00:19:20,590 --> 00:19:23,980 of evolve the norms and understandings of things like 355 00:19:23,990 --> 00:19:27,160 reasonable apprehension of bias, the duty of fairness, the right 356 00:19:27,170 --> 00:19:29,820 to be heard. What does that mean when there's 357 00:19:29,830 --> 00:19:33,540 potentially a robot somewhere in the background assisting in a 358 00:19:33,550 --> 00:19:36,140 decision that's going to fundamentally affect people's 359 00:19:36,150 --> 00:19:38,010 lives? And that has a lot of 360 00:19:38,230 --> 00:19:41,480 implications. So it's a sort of risk 361 00:19:41,490 --> 00:19:44,380 opportunity calculus. And I don't know where I land 362 00:19:44,390 --> 00:19:46,630 yet. I am a firm believer in the 363 00:19:46,640 --> 00:19:49,160 regulation of artificial intelligence particularly is 364 00:19:49,170 --> 00:19:53,580 used by state decision makers because I think they they have 365 00:19:53,590 --> 00:19:56,460 to be bound by the rule of law as they always have been. 366 00:19:56,530 --> 00:19:59,720 But we'll see where it goes. It's it's a really interesting 367 00:19:59,730 --> 00:20:02,460 question and and props to you for for raising. 368 00:20:02,470 --> 00:20:04,180 It thank you for for your comments. 369 00:20:04,190 --> 00:20:05,820 I think those are very pertinent. 370 00:20:05,830 --> 00:20:09,410 And as we definitely talk about that in in law school in 371 00:20:09,420 --> 00:20:12,720 different circles, and we keep thinking about how, you know, 372 00:20:12,730 --> 00:20:17,020 things will turn out and how you know that usage will come up in 373 00:20:17,110 --> 00:20:19,620 different ways in different spheres. 374 00:20:19,770 --> 00:20:22,220 But especially when we talk about, you know, young 375 00:20:22,230 --> 00:20:26,080 associates, it becomes a little interesting, especially on the 376 00:20:26,090 --> 00:20:30,340 sense that a lot of young associate tasks are being in a 377 00:20:30,350 --> 00:20:34,070 way products are coming into literally do that kind of 378 00:20:34,080 --> 00:20:36,620 research. So when you get a mature lawyer, 379 00:20:36,630 --> 00:20:40,450 they already have the skills and ability to be able to ask the 380 00:20:40,460 --> 00:20:44,080 right questions and analyze it with a little more maturity than 381 00:20:44,150 --> 00:20:47,460 somebody just starting out. And I guess just time will tell 382 00:20:47,470 --> 00:20:50,440 how that will play out, but it's it's being definitely 383 00:20:50,450 --> 00:20:53,180 interesting to see that. It's actually, I mean, you raise 384 00:20:53,250 --> 00:20:55,690 you raise such an important issue, which is the effect of 385 00:20:55,700 --> 00:20:58,730 artificial intelligence on associate mentorship and 386 00:20:58,740 --> 00:21:00,910 training. There is a lot of concern about 387 00:21:00,920 --> 00:21:02,630 that. To your point, I can look at a 388 00:21:02,640 --> 00:21:07,730 fact of maybe drafted by Chad GBT, not that not that I do, but 389 00:21:07,780 --> 00:21:10,330 I'm assuming that in theory I could look at one. 390 00:21:10,340 --> 00:21:13,540 I can sort of realize almost immediately where I want to 391 00:21:13,550 --> 00:21:17,110 argue what's wrong with it, what isn't, what might be inaccurate, 392 00:21:17,120 --> 00:21:20,850 what couldn't be someone eight years, one to three as a young 393 00:21:20,860 --> 00:21:23,190 lawyer doesn't have that skill set yet. 394 00:21:23,280 --> 00:21:26,780 And so if we're going to just start delegating these tasks to 395 00:21:26,790 --> 00:21:30,410 artificial intelligence, the fear that I have is, you know, a 396 00:21:30,420 --> 00:21:33,630 lawyer who's 20 years out, who's been utterly reliant on AI is 397 00:21:33,640 --> 00:21:36,810 not going to have the necessary level of judgment and critical 398 00:21:37,160 --> 00:21:39,250 thinking skills that they may need. 399 00:21:39,260 --> 00:21:43,020 And so, you know, depending on the firm, while you know, we're 400 00:21:43,030 --> 00:21:46,190 fully supportive and we're happy to use artificial intelligence 401 00:21:46,850 --> 00:21:52,060 programs, we are in fact still very firmly committed as a firm 402 00:21:52,070 --> 00:21:54,320 to ensuring that we're not letting the education and 403 00:21:54,330 --> 00:21:59,700 mentorship part of of associate jobs suffer as a consequence of 404 00:21:59,710 --> 00:22:03,740 artificial intelligence from becoming a partner in in the law 405 00:22:03,750 --> 00:22:06,120 firm structure. I see no, that's that's 406 00:22:06,430 --> 00:22:09,840 reassuring to here in a way and very, very interesting to see 407 00:22:09,850 --> 00:22:12,730 how it will play out. Moving on to another topic, 408 00:22:12,770 --> 00:22:16,530 you've written a lot, not only for your appellate work as a 409 00:22:16,540 --> 00:22:19,500 part of your job, but you've written quite a bit of 410 00:22:19,510 --> 00:22:23,680 different, you know, op eds and opinion pieces and and about the 411 00:22:23,690 --> 00:22:25,440 legislation and all of that as well. 412 00:22:25,530 --> 00:22:28,940 And I saw that one of your recent articles discussed the 413 00:22:28,950 --> 00:22:32,960 duty of good faith negotiating commercial contracts. 414 00:22:33,210 --> 00:22:36,000 I was wondering if you could tell us a little bit about that, 415 00:22:36,010 --> 00:22:40,120 about this contract series that you've been writing on. 416 00:22:40,270 --> 00:22:43,900 And then I think that you've gone so long as writing about, 417 00:22:43,910 --> 00:22:47,820 you know, contract law during the trade war and the, the key 418 00:22:47,830 --> 00:22:50,060 lessons that business should keep in mind. 419 00:22:50,070 --> 00:22:52,800 So I'd, I'd love to hear a little bit about that, Marco. 420 00:22:53,050 --> 00:22:56,280 Yeah, of course, it's sort of, it's kind of amazing how a 421 00:22:56,290 --> 00:23:00,920 larger social and political context can take over lawyers 422 00:23:00,930 --> 00:23:04,040 minds and litigators minds. But this was true of the 423 00:23:04,050 --> 00:23:06,840 pandemic and now we're sort of seeing it again. 424 00:23:06,890 --> 00:23:08,680 You touched on this quite rightly. 425 00:23:09,170 --> 00:23:12,380 These are the the US trade war against Canada and the 426 00:23:12,390 --> 00:23:16,050 imposition of tariffs. There are a lot of implications. 427 00:23:16,060 --> 00:23:18,440 We've had a lot of clients contacting us. 428 00:23:18,450 --> 00:23:22,440 And of course, we we sort of offered the perspective from the 429 00:23:22,500 --> 00:23:25,630 Canadian common law and contract law perspective. 430 00:23:25,680 --> 00:23:30,410 But all the doctrines that sort of became important and 431 00:23:30,420 --> 00:23:32,970 prominent in the pandemic. And I'm talking about things 432 00:23:32,980 --> 00:23:36,150 like the doctrine of frustration when your contract gets 433 00:23:36,160 --> 00:23:39,870 frustrated by a supervening event or, you know, whether or 434 00:23:39,880 --> 00:23:43,210 not a commercial contract has a forced measure clause that takes 435 00:23:43,220 --> 00:23:47,230 into account circumstances that a party has no control over. 436 00:23:47,440 --> 00:23:49,920 When can those be exercised? How are they exercised? 437 00:23:49,930 --> 00:23:54,750 And we're getting numerous calls from clients who are sort of 438 00:23:54,760 --> 00:23:57,190 raising the same issues. The good news is we've kind of 439 00:23:57,200 --> 00:24:01,120 done a lot of legwork during the pandemic because these were 440 00:24:01,130 --> 00:24:04,220 issues that were raised then, but now that the US tariffs have 441 00:24:04,230 --> 00:24:07,240 gone into effect against the Canadian businesses where 442 00:24:07,250 --> 00:24:10,740 Canadian contract law applies, there's there's been a myriad of 443 00:24:10,750 --> 00:24:12,870 issues. So that's sort of something that 444 00:24:12,880 --> 00:24:15,820 I've been, I've been touching on just because my clients have 445 00:24:15,830 --> 00:24:18,780 been raising it and have been have been quite concerned 446 00:24:18,790 --> 00:24:22,440 naturally about what, you know, doctrines that deal with 447 00:24:22,450 --> 00:24:26,280 supervening events like the imposition of tariffs by by 448 00:24:26,290 --> 00:24:29,020 foreign governments could have on Canadian contract law. 449 00:24:29,060 --> 00:24:32,080 So there's sort of that. And then the good faith piece is 450 00:24:32,090 --> 00:24:33,920 something that's near and dear to my heart. 451 00:24:33,930 --> 00:24:36,220 I've written a lot about good faith. 452 00:24:36,230 --> 00:24:39,670 Good friend from law school, Brandon Kane wrote a 2 volume 453 00:24:39,680 --> 00:24:42,260 tone. And I think Claudio has part of 454 00:24:42,270 --> 00:24:44,860 your amazing 75 years initiative. 455 00:24:44,870 --> 00:24:48,770 You may have spoken to to Brandon, he's at parties and he 456 00:24:48,780 --> 00:24:52,270 wrote this incredible tone on the duty of good faith and I've 457 00:24:52,280 --> 00:24:56,110 kind of picked up on it as well. And we both he and I talk about 458 00:24:56,120 --> 00:24:58,820 this a lot. And so I recently gave a talk at 459 00:24:58,830 --> 00:25:03,040 the Advocate Society about whether or not there's a duty to 460 00:25:03,050 --> 00:25:05,210 negotiate a contract in good faith. 461 00:25:05,220 --> 00:25:08,300 And that is before the contract is actually entered into simply 462 00:25:08,310 --> 00:25:10,870 because the duty of good faith is we've always understood it 463 00:25:10,920 --> 00:25:14,030 only applies when the parties enter into a contract. 464 00:25:14,040 --> 00:25:17,390 But what happens before the contract is entered into? 465 00:25:17,400 --> 00:25:21,750 And there's been a sort of common law understanding, shall 466 00:25:21,760 --> 00:25:25,570 we say, the latest is the decision of the British Columbia 467 00:25:25,580 --> 00:25:28,730 Court of Appeal called Ocean, something you're going to have 468 00:25:28,740 --> 00:25:31,790 to forgive me for not remembering the second word, but 469 00:25:31,800 --> 00:25:35,900 it came out last December and it effectively affirmed that there 470 00:25:35,910 --> 00:25:39,130 is no duty to negotiate a contract in good faith if the 471 00:25:39,140 --> 00:25:42,210 parties have not properly entered into a contract. 472 00:25:42,320 --> 00:25:45,020 And so there's there's no good faith duty to perform. 473 00:25:45,080 --> 00:25:47,980 That being said, as with law, there's a rule and then there's 474 00:25:47,990 --> 00:25:50,850 a million exceptions. And the Supreme Court of Canada 475 00:25:51,150 --> 00:25:54,980 came out with a decision early in January involving the Quebec 476 00:25:54,990 --> 00:25:57,960 attorney general and seemed to suggest that under the Quebec 477 00:25:57,970 --> 00:26:02,060 Civil Code, which is where the common law got a lot of its good 478 00:26:02,070 --> 00:26:05,480 faith principles from. But under the Quebec Civil Code, 479 00:26:05,530 --> 00:26:10,200 if the parties in fact have an obligation to negotiate anything 480 00:26:10,210 --> 00:26:12,700 in their contract that's expressly set out, for example, 481 00:26:12,710 --> 00:26:15,800 in a lease, there might be a renewal provision that says the 482 00:26:15,810 --> 00:26:18,790 parties have to negotiate a renewal and so forth on the 483 00:26:18,800 --> 00:26:21,550 Supreme Court of Canada says absolutely, in those cases, 484 00:26:21,560 --> 00:26:25,040 there is a duty of good faith and that applies simply because 485 00:26:25,050 --> 00:26:28,140 the duty is tied to the contract itself. 486 00:26:28,150 --> 00:26:30,920 So it's going to be interesting to see where the Supreme Court 487 00:26:30,930 --> 00:26:34,500 of Canada lands at common law on this issue. 488 00:26:34,510 --> 00:26:37,740 But these are the sorts of burgeoning things that raise my 489 00:26:37,750 --> 00:26:41,540 intellectual curiosity and hopefully a a lot of your 490 00:26:41,550 --> 00:26:45,370 podcast members as well. And so I write a lot about it, 491 00:26:45,380 --> 00:26:48,860 yes, partly for shameless self promotion and so forth for 492 00:26:48,870 --> 00:26:52,200 clients, but also because I'm just genuinely really interested 493 00:26:52,450 --> 00:26:56,030 in in the directions that that that the law will take needs to 494 00:26:56,040 --> 00:26:57,720 be this issue. That's fantastic. 495 00:26:57,730 --> 00:27:01,600 Well, thank you for sharing that to to wrap up today's episode, 496 00:27:01,650 --> 00:27:05,520 I'd love to to go back to one of the topics that we spoke about. 497 00:27:05,530 --> 00:27:09,000 We spoke about, you know, young lawyers, law students starting 498 00:27:09,010 --> 00:27:11,720 out. And I know that a lot of people 499 00:27:11,730 --> 00:27:14,880 more and more want to build a meaningful career, a career with 500 00:27:14,890 --> 00:27:17,360 purpose and one that will be long lasting. 501 00:27:17,370 --> 00:27:20,200 We know that probably this this generation entering the 502 00:27:20,210 --> 00:27:23,520 workforce now will probably be there for for quite a while. 503 00:27:23,530 --> 00:27:26,560 And and of course there's always room to, you know, change 504 00:27:26,570 --> 00:27:29,440 careers and all of that. But we, we don't start a career 505 00:27:29,450 --> 00:27:31,940 looking into getting out of it for the most part, I'm pretty 506 00:27:31,950 --> 00:27:34,800 sure looking into, you know, keeping it meaningful with 507 00:27:34,810 --> 00:27:37,800 purpose and sustainable. I wonder if there is a piece of 508 00:27:37,810 --> 00:27:42,320 advice that you give to those of us starting out in this upcoming 509 00:27:42,330 --> 00:27:44,800 years. Here, the first thing that I 510 00:27:44,810 --> 00:27:48,490 think is important is that when you're starting off as a lawyer, 511 00:27:48,500 --> 00:27:51,790 yes, you have to learn your skill set, be it as a corporate 512 00:27:51,800 --> 00:27:54,900 lawyer who does transaction work or as a litigator who's who's 513 00:27:54,910 --> 00:27:57,840 going to be appearing in court. So substantively, of course, you 514 00:27:57,850 --> 00:28:00,410 have to learn the practice of law. 515 00:28:00,460 --> 00:28:02,310 That's fine. And that's something that will 516 00:28:02,320 --> 00:28:06,110 evolve naturally between years 1:00 to 6:00 and 7:00. 517 00:28:06,280 --> 00:28:10,370 But while you're doing that, the most important thing that you 518 00:28:10,380 --> 00:28:15,390 should be doing, and Claudio, you are Superbas, is building 519 00:28:15,400 --> 00:28:19,170 out a network. And that doesn't mean just a 520 00:28:19,180 --> 00:28:22,570 network of potential clients down the road that you know, so 521 00:28:22,580 --> 00:28:26,790 that you can become a rainmaker and and and make a lot of money. 522 00:28:27,080 --> 00:28:29,990 There's that, of course, and that, you know, the business of 523 00:28:30,000 --> 00:28:33,450 law is important without question, but also a network of 524 00:28:33,460 --> 00:28:39,340 mentors, a network of friends in the profession who do the same 525 00:28:39,350 --> 00:28:42,720 thing that you do, joining associations that are involved 526 00:28:42,730 --> 00:28:46,390 in the industries that you're going to see yourself in 20 527 00:28:46,400 --> 00:28:48,960 years, acting as an advocate for. 528 00:28:48,970 --> 00:28:52,260 Those are all important things that you have to start thinking 529 00:28:52,270 --> 00:28:54,300 about. And to be honest, it's something 530 00:28:54,310 --> 00:28:57,180 I didn't do as much. I was, I was a very much a heads 531 00:28:57,190 --> 00:29:00,060 down kind of person, unlike you, Claudio. 532 00:29:00,150 --> 00:29:03,540 And I sort of kept my head down for a while just because I was 533 00:29:03,550 --> 00:29:06,120 so obsessed with learning the skill set that I kind of let 534 00:29:06,130 --> 00:29:09,420 that stuff go by the wayside. But the more networking I 535 00:29:09,430 --> 00:29:13,140 started to do, the more people I met in the legal community. 536 00:29:13,150 --> 00:29:16,000 Number one, you realize how small the legal profession 537 00:29:16,040 --> 00:29:19,760 actually is, the fact that there are many, many lawyers across 538 00:29:19,770 --> 00:29:22,990 Canada. But second, more important, you 539 00:29:23,040 --> 00:29:28,390 start to build people who will become critical to your success. 540 00:29:29,080 --> 00:29:33,410 And that means, you know, people like former judges, current 541 00:29:33,420 --> 00:29:37,580 judges, mentors, senior counsel, people who have guided me 542 00:29:37,590 --> 00:29:40,690 throughout my career and have said, do this, don't do that. 543 00:29:40,740 --> 00:29:43,940 Don't waste time with this, focus on this. 544 00:29:43,950 --> 00:29:47,590 And and then on a personal level, you know, having, having 545 00:29:47,600 --> 00:29:51,130 someone, someone there who can help you navigate and 546 00:29:51,140 --> 00:29:55,010 understands the law. I have an incredible spouse 547 00:29:55,320 --> 00:29:59,470 who's in immensely supportive and I'm super lucky for that. 548 00:29:59,520 --> 00:30:02,330 But there's also, you know, he's, he's not a lawyer. 549 00:30:02,340 --> 00:30:06,110 And so sometimes I need to bounce ideas off a lawyer or 550 00:30:06,120 --> 00:30:08,640 have someone who understands, you know, when it's like have a 551 00:30:08,650 --> 00:30:12,140 heart Davenport and and you know all the sort of followed the 552 00:30:12,150 --> 00:30:15,660 rules from one such have a good and we'll understand. 553 00:30:15,710 --> 00:30:21,640 So my sort of essential advice to any young law students and 554 00:30:21,650 --> 00:30:26,600 lawyers and is start to figure out who your network is and 555 00:30:26,610 --> 00:30:29,760 start to build it from the ground back immediately. 556 00:30:29,870 --> 00:30:32,620 Well, fantastic. What it what an episode. 557 00:30:32,690 --> 00:30:36,640 I encourage everybody to to go back and if you haven't gotten 558 00:30:36,650 --> 00:30:41,020 some, some pencil and paper and taken some notes, it's it's 559 00:30:41,030 --> 00:30:43,150 definitely an episode worth doing that. 560 00:30:43,160 --> 00:30:46,370 Thank you so much Marco for for your time and for all those 561 00:30:46,380 --> 00:30:48,620 insights. Thanks so much, Claudio is a 562 00:30:48,630 --> 00:30:51,360 sincere pleasure and congratulations on this 563 00:30:51,370 --> 00:30:51,940 endeavor. It's. 564 00:30:51,950 --> 00:30:53,610 Excellent. But thank you so much. 565 00:30:53,690 --> 00:30:55,880 Thank you all for tuning in, and we'll see you all on the next 566 00:30:55,970 --> 00:30:56,570 episode.