1 00:00:12,870 --> 00:00:14,860 Welcome to studying law around the world. 2 00:00:15,010 --> 00:00:17,280 I'm Claudio Claus in each episode. 3 00:00:17,350 --> 00:00:19,360 I talk. With lawyers, law students and 4 00:00:19,370 --> 00:00:22,750 professors from different parts of the world to talk about legal 5 00:00:22,760 --> 00:00:26,040 education, careers, and what the profession looks like in real 6 00:00:26,050 --> 00:00:27,760 life. We talk about the hard parts, 7 00:00:27,770 --> 00:00:29,640 the surprises and the decisions that. 8 00:00:29,650 --> 00:00:32,259 Shaped their paths. Whether you're planning to study 9 00:00:32,270 --> 00:00:35,520 abroad, thinking about working in another legal system, or just 10 00:00:35,530 --> 00:00:39,640 curious about how law works around the world, this podcast 11 00:00:39,650 --> 00:00:44,220 is for you. Today, I have the opportunity to 12 00:00:44,230 --> 00:00:48,940 interview Chandler Lauzen, who is the Chief Growth Officer at 13 00:00:49,010 --> 00:00:51,920 the law firm Castles. He serves in this role and 14 00:00:51,930 --> 00:00:55,460 focuses on enhancing the firm's client relationship and service, 15 00:00:55,610 --> 00:01:00,260 ensuring that the firm delivers differentiated value and a 16 00:01:00,270 --> 00:01:02,800 meaningful results for for clients. 17 00:01:02,910 --> 00:01:05,740 Thank you so much for taking the time to be in the podcast today, 18 00:01:05,750 --> 00:01:07,050 Chandler. Thanks, Claudia. 19 00:01:07,060 --> 00:01:09,640 Appreciate. Oh, and I appreciate you taking 20 00:01:09,650 --> 00:01:11,460 the time to start off our podcast. 21 00:01:11,470 --> 00:01:13,960 I'd love if you could introduce yourself a little bit more to 22 00:01:13,970 --> 00:01:17,740 our listeners and also if you could tell us a little bit more 23 00:01:17,750 --> 00:01:21,000 about how you got into the path here today focused on law firm. 24 00:01:21,010 --> 00:01:22,520 Growth. Yeah. 25 00:01:22,580 --> 00:01:26,900 Well, Chandler Lawson, I have been on the B side of of law 26 00:01:26,910 --> 00:01:29,360 firm service for about 20 years now. 27 00:01:29,410 --> 00:01:33,460 But I refer to myself lovingly, I suppose, as a recovering 28 00:01:33,470 --> 00:01:38,180 lawyer, having practiced early in my career and you know, in, 29 00:01:38,190 --> 00:01:40,720 in the context of private practice at a large national 30 00:01:40,730 --> 00:01:43,640 firm. I've also been in house at a 31 00:01:43,650 --> 00:01:47,660 public company in Canada and have been in house in a small, I 32 00:01:47,670 --> 00:01:50,050 dare say startup technology company in Canada. 33 00:01:50,060 --> 00:01:53,800 And so I've practiced law and a whole variety of contexts before 34 00:01:53,810 --> 00:01:57,900 making the shift over to the business development side of of 35 00:01:57,910 --> 00:02:01,080 a law firm. And certainly that grounding has 36 00:02:01,090 --> 00:02:04,440 been valuable for me and has enabled me to speak the language 37 00:02:04,450 --> 00:02:06,860 really of my clients and my customers who are the partners 38 00:02:06,870 --> 00:02:09,620 and and lawyers of the firm. Amazing. 39 00:02:09,690 --> 00:02:13,220 Schindler, if I may ask you thinking about this transition 40 00:02:13,290 --> 00:02:18,170 of practicing law into if, if I recollected rights 1st at first 41 00:02:18,180 --> 00:02:21,880 writing proposals and then ensure BDM role now for for over 42 00:02:21,890 --> 00:02:25,400 25 years, if I'm not mistaken. What did that transition teach 43 00:02:25,410 --> 00:02:28,060 you a little more about, you know, how the law firms operate 44 00:02:28,070 --> 00:02:31,340 and maybe that part that most lawyers never get to see? 45 00:02:32,160 --> 00:02:35,680 Yeah, I would say there's a couple thoughts. 1, I don't 46 00:02:35,690 --> 00:02:38,210 think I was particularly sophisticated as a as an 47 00:02:38,220 --> 00:02:42,050 associate in a law firm enough to understand a few realities 48 00:02:42,060 --> 00:02:44,370 of, of what law firm life is like. 49 00:02:44,380 --> 00:02:47,320 A number one, I think that the the, the side of the proposal 50 00:02:47,330 --> 00:02:51,270 work that taught me that not all partners are created equal. 51 00:02:51,340 --> 00:02:55,050 It gave me a window into some of the politics that are that in a 52 00:02:55,060 --> 00:02:57,120 law firm. It gave me a window into some of 53 00:02:57,130 --> 00:03:01,830 the realities of how different lawyers go about building their 54 00:03:01,840 --> 00:03:03,650 their book of business in different ways. 55 00:03:03,660 --> 00:03:07,030 The nature of pricing. So the time I shifted over into 56 00:03:07,040 --> 00:03:11,790 a proposal role was around 2006. So for those of you old enough 57 00:03:11,800 --> 00:03:14,610 to know back then it was boom time still, right? 58 00:03:14,620 --> 00:03:18,010 Lots of M&A, lots of capital markets for law firms were going 59 00:03:18,020 --> 00:03:19,830 great guns. And then all of a sudden 60 00:03:19,840 --> 00:03:22,950 everything went over a Cliff in 2000 and 2008 and we had a 61 00:03:22,960 --> 00:03:25,110 financial crisis and our recession and so on and so 62 00:03:25,120 --> 00:03:27,390 forth. Things like pricing became 63 00:03:27,460 --> 00:03:31,690 imperative, things like client service became imperative. 64 00:03:31,800 --> 00:03:35,710 Things like technology used to reduce the cost of legal 65 00:03:35,720 --> 00:03:37,720 services started to come into focus. 66 00:03:37,920 --> 00:03:42,120 And so, you know, seeing some of the machinations of these things 67 00:03:42,130 --> 00:03:45,650 behind the scenes as a proposal person, I think was incredibly 68 00:03:45,660 --> 00:03:49,650 instructive for not only me and my career and and being able to 69 00:03:49,660 --> 00:03:53,510 connect dots for lawyers about how business gets built and how 70 00:03:53,520 --> 00:03:56,970 we position good value to clients and how we in fact sell 71 00:03:56,980 --> 00:03:59,020 our services in a competitive market place. 72 00:03:59,030 --> 00:04:02,340 But a lot of those same similarities are coming back 73 00:04:02,350 --> 00:04:06,620 around as we sit here in 2026. Incredibly packed marketplace 74 00:04:07,450 --> 00:04:11,460 economy that's sort of peddling along and and you know, 75 00:04:11,550 --> 00:04:14,120 certainly the stock markets great, but but the the 76 00:04:14,130 --> 00:04:17,540 environment for client buying behaviors is maybe a little bit 77 00:04:17,550 --> 00:04:20,420 bit trickier. A lot of consolidation in the 78 00:04:20,430 --> 00:04:22,820 legal market, certainly in the United States, perhaps that 79 00:04:22,830 --> 00:04:25,760 trend is going to come to Canada and a lot of focus on value and 80 00:04:25,770 --> 00:04:28,960 pricing and what does it cost, Why does it cost so much to hire 81 00:04:28,970 --> 00:04:30,650 lawyers. And so a lot of those themes are 82 00:04:30,660 --> 00:04:32,650 coming back around. It's interesting now that to be 83 00:04:32,660 --> 00:04:35,680 through, you know, 20 years on and see a lot of these same 84 00:04:35,690 --> 00:04:40,260 themes come back around. And so I would say to, to 85 00:04:40,270 --> 00:04:44,820 lawyers, to young lawyers, to, to people in, in functions other 86 00:04:44,830 --> 00:04:48,120 than practicing law in a law firm, everything is cyclical. 87 00:04:48,330 --> 00:04:49,880 Everything will come back around. 88 00:04:49,890 --> 00:04:52,860 The trends you thought were dead and buried 20 years prior will 89 00:04:52,870 --> 00:04:56,410 in fact come back around and be prevalent again in your career 90 00:04:56,420 --> 00:04:59,240 if you do this long enough. Very, very interesting. 91 00:04:59,250 --> 00:05:02,620 After all these years kind of being in that position and and 92 00:05:02,630 --> 00:05:05,520 seeing the client conversations, the Peaches and all of that, I'm 93 00:05:05,530 --> 00:05:08,420 curious if you've seen some kind of trend, just like you said, 94 00:05:08,470 --> 00:05:11,220 things are cyclical. Are there a few points that 95 00:05:11,230 --> 00:05:14,380 maybe lawyers frequently misunderstand about how clients 96 00:05:14,790 --> 00:05:18,240 actually choose their lawyer, maybe beyond the pricing aspect 97 00:05:18,250 --> 00:05:20,140 of? It yeah, No, there's quite a few 98 00:05:20,150 --> 00:05:22,450 and I'll just point out a couple, you know, and I have sat 99 00:05:22,460 --> 00:05:25,430 with GC's, I have interviewed clients of the firms that I've 100 00:05:25,440 --> 00:05:27,380 been at. I have, I have sort of sat in 101 00:05:27,390 --> 00:05:30,920 on, on panels of buyers and consumers of our services. 102 00:05:30,930 --> 00:05:33,800 And a couple of themes always seem to prevail #1 it's about 103 00:05:33,810 --> 00:05:36,710 relationships. And so, you know, we're going to 104 00:05:36,720 --> 00:05:40,140 get into this in a little bit, but but investing in meaningful, 105 00:05:40,150 --> 00:05:42,990 sincere, authentic relationships with your clients and 106 00:05:43,000 --> 00:05:47,480 prospective clients is, is key. Yes, it's selling and, and for a 107 00:05:47,490 --> 00:05:51,970 long, long time, sales was a dirty word in legal practice, 108 00:05:52,180 --> 00:05:54,930 but it doesn't need to feel like selling and it shouldn't make 109 00:05:54,940 --> 00:05:56,560 you feel like a used car salesman. 110 00:05:56,610 --> 00:06:00,120 It is a relationship selling. So that's number one. 111 00:06:00,270 --> 00:06:03,660 Number two, I would say I've heard a lot of GC's and, and you 112 00:06:03,670 --> 00:06:07,260 know, business people say the best lawyers understand my 113 00:06:07,270 --> 00:06:09,120 business. What does that mean exactly? 114 00:06:09,690 --> 00:06:12,900 I think there is a degree of practicality and commerciality 115 00:06:12,910 --> 00:06:16,560 that needs to be brought to bear to the practice of law that 116 00:06:16,570 --> 00:06:20,200 makes the most effective and the most, you know, strong lawyers 117 00:06:20,210 --> 00:06:21,560 and the best business developers. 118 00:06:21,570 --> 00:06:24,680 What do I mean by that? Understanding your clients 119 00:06:24,690 --> 00:06:27,840 business objectives. Understanding your clients risk 120 00:06:27,910 --> 00:06:30,410 tolerance. Understanding the politics 121 00:06:30,420 --> 00:06:33,810 between the C-Suite and the boardroom and the business. 122 00:06:34,240 --> 00:06:38,610 Understanding how a particular legal solution is going to 123 00:06:38,620 --> 00:06:42,840 resonate from a reputational perspective, understanding how a 124 00:06:42,850 --> 00:06:45,860 particular outcome is going to resonate on the balance sheet, 125 00:06:45,870 --> 00:06:48,430 these are all the sorts of skills I think that the most, 126 00:06:48,490 --> 00:06:50,900 the most successful lawyers are able to bring to bear. 127 00:06:50,910 --> 00:06:53,820 And when clients say no, my business, I believe it's things 128 00:06:53,830 --> 00:06:57,770 like that that they want to want to receive from us and I think 129 00:06:57,860 --> 00:07:01,210 they want to receive recommendations from their 130 00:07:01,220 --> 00:07:03,050 experts, right? They're paying us a lot of money 131 00:07:03,060 --> 00:07:07,430 to be their experts. And so, you know, lawyers can 132 00:07:07,440 --> 00:07:11,090 say, well, you know, you can do option A or you can do option BI 133 00:07:11,100 --> 00:07:14,580 Think the best lawyers say, I think you should do option A 134 00:07:14,840 --> 00:07:17,190 because it best meets your business objectives. 135 00:07:17,200 --> 00:07:20,610 It most accords to your, to your risk tolerance in the 136 00:07:20,620 --> 00:07:24,350 marketplace. It it best positions the members 137 00:07:24,360 --> 00:07:27,310 of the board and the, and the management team for success. 138 00:07:27,640 --> 00:07:30,570 It is the thing your clients, your own customers are going to 139 00:07:30,580 --> 00:07:32,250 care about. It is going to deliver the right 140 00:07:32,260 --> 00:07:34,760 value to them. And, and just being able to 141 00:07:34,770 --> 00:07:40,230 articulate what the preferred legal solution does to drive the 142 00:07:40,240 --> 00:07:43,810 right business outcome, I think is a skill that the very best 143 00:07:43,820 --> 00:07:46,470 lawyers have in abundance. Very. 144 00:07:46,480 --> 00:07:48,280 Nice though, thanks for sharing that. 145 00:07:48,430 --> 00:07:51,070 Something that that I've been noticing is that in law school, 146 00:07:51,080 --> 00:07:54,980 we hear a lot of kind of the same little quotes and sometimes 147 00:07:54,990 --> 00:07:57,490 they make a lot of sense right away and sometimes they're kind 148 00:07:57,500 --> 00:08:00,510 of hard to understand what that actually means. 149 00:08:00,580 --> 00:08:03,730 But you know, you hear a lot about how things compound over 150 00:08:03,740 --> 00:08:07,430 time or how you got to play the long game and, and all of these 151 00:08:07,440 --> 00:08:09,390 things. And I'm curious, you know, if 152 00:08:09,400 --> 00:08:10,910 there is. A. 153 00:08:11,120 --> 00:08:13,810 Specific things maybe that's separate those lawyers who can 154 00:08:13,820 --> 00:08:16,910 build those strong client relationships and those who may 155 00:08:16,920 --> 00:08:20,210 be struggle or take a little bit of extra time in coaching to get 156 00:08:20,220 --> 00:08:23,290 there, even if they they know the law and the technicality is 157 00:08:23,300 --> 00:08:25,400 very strong. You, you just mentioned a very 158 00:08:25,500 --> 00:08:28,250 important point of understanding the business, but are there a 159 00:08:28,260 --> 00:08:29,970 few other things as well that you notice? 160 00:08:30,380 --> 00:08:33,110 I think the ability to make business development development 161 00:08:33,120 --> 00:08:35,450 habitual and, and what do I mean by that? 162 00:08:35,460 --> 00:08:39,850 I, I think those, those sincere sorts of check-ins with clients, 163 00:08:39,860 --> 00:08:42,610 the ability to stay connected to what's going on in an industry 164 00:08:42,710 --> 00:08:45,890 based on what's happening in the news, following, you know, if 165 00:08:45,900 --> 00:08:47,740 you're dealing with public companies, what's going on in 166 00:08:47,750 --> 00:08:50,360 their press releases, what's under, what's going on in their 167 00:08:50,370 --> 00:08:53,800 C-Suite, who's coming and going, just checking in with, with 168 00:08:53,810 --> 00:08:59,750 sincerity and, and honesty about what's going on over there at 169 00:08:59,760 --> 00:09:01,480 your business and how can we help? 170 00:09:01,490 --> 00:09:04,270 Not in a sales Y way, Just like I'm thinking about you. 171 00:09:04,330 --> 00:09:07,210 And maybe that means, Hey, here's the thing we wrote that 172 00:09:07,220 --> 00:09:09,260 was relevant or might be relevant to you. 173 00:09:09,270 --> 00:09:12,400 Thought you thought you'd get some interest in this or hey, 174 00:09:12,410 --> 00:09:15,990 I'm going to be at this event in a couple of days, maybe you 175 00:09:16,000 --> 00:09:19,690 should come along or hey, I've got these tickets I can't use. 176 00:09:19,700 --> 00:09:22,590 Why don't you take you and your kids out to the game on me? 177 00:09:22,640 --> 00:09:25,170 You know, I come back to that notion of investing in 178 00:09:25,180 --> 00:09:28,770 relationships in a way that feels sincere and authentic and 179 00:09:28,780 --> 00:09:31,930 not transactional is, I think again, it's sort of a key 180 00:09:31,940 --> 00:09:34,510 element to this. And, and the folks who are great 181 00:09:34,520 --> 00:09:37,090 technicians sometimes overlook that. 182 00:09:37,320 --> 00:09:39,190 Not always. I think there's folks that marry 183 00:09:39,200 --> 00:09:41,450 up both. And, and the other thing I would 184 00:09:41,460 --> 00:09:45,230 say, Claudio is, is, you know, recognizing at a certain point 185 00:09:45,240 --> 00:09:48,890 in your career what your strengths are and, and 186 00:09:48,900 --> 00:09:52,140 surrounding yourself with people who may complement the things 187 00:09:52,150 --> 00:09:56,110 that are not your strengths. So you can be a really great 188 00:09:56,120 --> 00:09:59,250 business development lawyer and get away with not being a 189 00:09:59,260 --> 00:10:02,600 terrific technician if you know the, the terrific technicians in 190 00:10:02,610 --> 00:10:04,690 the firm. If you are the terrific 191 00:10:04,700 --> 00:10:07,810 technician, you should probably hitch your wagon to folks who 192 00:10:07,820 --> 00:10:11,410 are able to make sure you are on good files and, you know, get 193 00:10:11,420 --> 00:10:13,770 you in front of good clients, even if that's not your sweet 194 00:10:13,780 --> 00:10:15,410 spot. And so there's, there's a bit of 195 00:10:15,420 --> 00:10:19,970 sort of reckoning and honest accounting of your own skill set 196 00:10:19,980 --> 00:10:21,630 and your own tools in your toolbox. 197 00:10:21,640 --> 00:10:26,130 And in, in current practice, putting A-Team around you is 198 00:10:26,140 --> 00:10:29,590 what our clients expect. Like, yes, they hire lawyers, 199 00:10:29,940 --> 00:10:32,390 but they hire lawyers with good teams around them. 200 00:10:32,400 --> 00:10:37,110 And the collaborative nature of legal practice now is such that 201 00:10:37,420 --> 00:10:40,040 if you sort of take stock of the skills of the people you put 202 00:10:40,050 --> 00:10:43,190 around you, you're trying to, you're not to, not to be few 203 00:10:43,200 --> 00:10:44,350 funny about it. You're trying to put The 204 00:10:44,360 --> 00:10:46,750 Avengers together, right? And and create these 205 00:10:46,760 --> 00:10:51,240 complementary skill sets who bring the right skills and tools 206 00:10:51,250 --> 00:10:55,020 to your client relationship and help your clients arrive at the 207 00:10:55,030 --> 00:10:56,550 right results. Fantastic. 208 00:10:56,560 --> 00:10:57,960 No, that's very, very interesting. 209 00:10:57,970 --> 00:11:01,150 I love the idea of kind of accounting your skill set. 210 00:11:01,200 --> 00:11:03,630 Even in BD. I think there's a few different 211 00:11:03,640 --> 00:11:05,630 styles, right? There's people who can kind of 212 00:11:05,860 --> 00:11:09,390 work a whole room and and can go and do public speaking. 213 00:11:09,400 --> 00:11:13,370 And whereas some other people I think I kind of identify a 214 00:11:13,380 --> 00:11:15,470 little better with like a small settings and kind of a 215 00:11:15,480 --> 00:11:17,440 one-on-one conversation conversations. 216 00:11:17,660 --> 00:11:22,030 So a big part of the listeners here in the podcast are young 217 00:11:22,040 --> 00:11:26,490 professionals, recently graduated or are just finishing 218 00:11:26,500 --> 00:11:28,890 up law school. And and I'm curious from your 219 00:11:28,900 --> 00:11:32,570 perspective, how should young lawyers be thinking about this 220 00:11:32,680 --> 00:11:35,970 early on in their careers? And just like you said, not 221 00:11:35,980 --> 00:11:40,320 being salesy fake, but how do how does that play your role? 222 00:11:40,420 --> 00:11:43,350 This is going to sound trite and simple, staying in touch with 223 00:11:43,360 --> 00:11:47,060 people. So your first, your very first 224 00:11:47,070 --> 00:11:49,780 network is the folks you went to school with. 225 00:11:50,050 --> 00:11:53,240 And the folks you went to school with are going to take many 226 00:11:53,330 --> 00:11:56,020 diverging paths in their own careers. 227 00:11:56,470 --> 00:11:59,930 The most effective lawyers, I think, are able to stay in touch 228 00:11:59,940 --> 00:12:02,540 with people, even if those are light touch connections, right? 229 00:12:02,550 --> 00:12:05,660 They may not all be your best friend, but if you're using, you 230 00:12:05,670 --> 00:12:07,920 know, LinkedIn, you're using word of mouth, you're staying on 231 00:12:07,930 --> 00:12:10,980 top of your alumni network and so on and so forth to understand 232 00:12:11,060 --> 00:12:16,080 the moves people are making in their own careers and following 233 00:12:16,090 --> 00:12:18,480 them, taking a genuine interest in those moves. 234 00:12:18,530 --> 00:12:21,060 How's it going? Hey, hey, you know, how are you 235 00:12:21,070 --> 00:12:23,340 settling in? What's it like on the other 236 00:12:23,350 --> 00:12:25,100 side? What's it like doing in-house 237 00:12:25,110 --> 00:12:26,460 work? What's it like being at that 238 00:12:26,470 --> 00:12:28,700 firm? What's it like changing gears 239 00:12:28,710 --> 00:12:33,040 entirely and going into private equity or entrepreneurship or 240 00:12:33,050 --> 00:12:36,880 whatever it might be? You know, so, so I would, I 241 00:12:36,890 --> 00:12:39,950 would invite young lawyers coming out of school in their 242 00:12:39,960 --> 00:12:43,800 first few years of practice. Take stock of the relationships 243 00:12:43,810 --> 00:12:46,050 you already have. Don't, don't necessarily have to 244 00:12:46,060 --> 00:12:49,570 shoot for the moon and aim for that, that CEO that might be a 245 00:12:49,580 --> 00:12:52,270 little bit unattainable in years, you know, 1-2 or three. 246 00:12:52,330 --> 00:12:54,250 Stay close to the people that are close to you because I 247 00:12:54,260 --> 00:12:57,990 guarantee you not everybody's gonna stay in private practice. 248 00:12:58,000 --> 00:13:00,070 Not everybody's gonna be a competitor forever. 249 00:13:00,920 --> 00:13:04,470 A lot of them are gonna go in house and someday those in house 250 00:13:04,480 --> 00:13:06,710 people are going to be in positions to make decisions 251 00:13:06,720 --> 00:13:09,990 about who they hire. And so if you have invested in 252 00:13:10,000 --> 00:13:12,680 those relationships, if you have stayed close to people and, and 253 00:13:12,690 --> 00:13:15,480 been sincere about it and, and taken a genuine interest in, in 254 00:13:15,490 --> 00:13:19,780 people's pathways, those, those connections will come back 255 00:13:19,790 --> 00:13:23,170 around to serve you well. And the second thing I would say 256 00:13:23,180 --> 00:13:26,090 is, is I hear this from clients all the time. 257 00:13:26,750 --> 00:13:30,920 And I think both law firms and young associates maybe don't do 258 00:13:30,930 --> 00:13:33,160 a great job of, of teeing this up effectively. 259 00:13:34,110 --> 00:13:35,620 I hear from clients all the time. 260 00:13:35,630 --> 00:13:37,480 We want to meet your whole roster. 261 00:13:37,730 --> 00:13:40,740 We want to understand who's who's on the team at the junior 262 00:13:40,750 --> 00:13:41,880 level. Why? 263 00:13:41,970 --> 00:13:44,760 Not just to know who's doing our work, but because we also have 264 00:13:44,770 --> 00:13:47,410 junior people, whether they're in house lawyers, whether 265 00:13:47,420 --> 00:13:49,690 they're in house business people, whatever it is, we want 266 00:13:49,700 --> 00:13:53,480 to make introductions. And so I would say to 267 00:13:53,490 --> 00:13:56,400 associates, you have to be a bit of a squeaky wheel on this with 268 00:13:56,410 --> 00:13:58,140 your partners and with the files that you're on. 269 00:13:58,150 --> 00:14:00,890 When you meet the client, when you get client FaceTime, when 270 00:14:00,900 --> 00:14:06,100 you meet your contemporaries on the client side, stay close to 271 00:14:06,110 --> 00:14:09,840 those people too. Check in, grab a coffee, go to 272 00:14:09,850 --> 00:14:13,680 dinner, go on a tour. 1 of the, the best pieces of advice I got 273 00:14:13,690 --> 00:14:17,520 for as a young lawyer working in the automotive sector was go 274 00:14:17,530 --> 00:14:20,560 check out the floor, Go see what they build over there. 275 00:14:20,610 --> 00:14:23,640 Go check out how they make cars or make widgets or whatever. 276 00:14:23,650 --> 00:14:26,940 Nothing will ingratiate you with a client more than saying, tell 277 00:14:26,950 --> 00:14:29,640 me more about your business. Tell me more about your business 278 00:14:29,650 --> 00:14:31,870 process. Tell me more about how you sell 279 00:14:31,880 --> 00:14:33,400 things. Tell me more about how you make 280 00:14:33,410 --> 00:14:35,640 things. So, so staying close when you do 281 00:14:35,650 --> 00:14:39,490 get those, those little kernels of client contact, figure out 282 00:14:39,500 --> 00:14:43,080 who your people are, especially people of a similar vintage or 283 00:14:43,150 --> 00:14:45,760 especially people at a similar point in their careers. 284 00:14:45,830 --> 00:14:47,560 That's your, that's your network. 285 00:14:47,650 --> 00:14:51,030 That's where you you build the seeds and you plant proceeds and 286 00:14:51,040 --> 00:14:53,880 three, 5-10 years down the road they will germinate and they 287 00:14:53,890 --> 00:14:56,260 will come back around. And Tastic, thanks. 288 00:14:56,270 --> 00:14:58,290 Thanks for sharing that. I was reading a little bit of 289 00:14:58,300 --> 00:15:01,660 what you shared in the past and in some of the writing and all 290 00:15:01,670 --> 00:15:06,730 of that and I see that it seems like 3 pillars often come around 291 00:15:06,940 --> 00:15:09,450 and, and those are accountability, strategy and 292 00:15:09,460 --> 00:15:11,730 execution. I wanted to hear a little bit 293 00:15:11,740 --> 00:15:13,630 about that. How does that work? 294 00:15:13,640 --> 00:15:18,190 And even if our those specific to firm settings that have, you 295 00:15:18,200 --> 00:15:21,480 know, a business development department or are we talking 296 00:15:21,490 --> 00:15:24,790 about you know, principles that could be applied to anyone in 297 00:15:24,800 --> 00:15:28,170 any area of practice? Yeah, I mean, listen, I'll start 298 00:15:28,180 --> 00:15:30,590 with strategy on this because I think that's the the the first 299 00:15:30,600 --> 00:15:33,070 building block and then I'll get to execution and accountability. 300 00:15:33,140 --> 00:15:38,090 So, so listen, law firms are partnerships and collections of 301 00:15:38,100 --> 00:15:41,230 individuals, right? And partnerships and individuals 302 00:15:41,240 --> 00:15:45,630 are inherently self interested. And I think a lot of times in a 303 00:15:45,640 --> 00:15:48,690 marketing and BD function, it's easy to get caught up in the 304 00:15:48,700 --> 00:15:54,200 needs of the 100 partners, the 200 partners, the day-to-day of 305 00:15:54,210 --> 00:15:58,460 demands and asks and, and, and, and products that they require 306 00:15:58,470 --> 00:16:01,790 of us. Strategy to me is that longer 307 00:16:01,800 --> 00:16:05,270 term, bigger picture, right? It's the ability to articulate 308 00:16:05,280 --> 00:16:08,750 what kind of a business do we want to be, who are we going to 309 00:16:08,760 --> 00:16:10,630 serve? What markets are we going to 310 00:16:10,640 --> 00:16:12,250 play in and how are we going to win? 311 00:16:12,700 --> 00:16:15,930 That is an exercise that has to happen at the management level. 312 00:16:15,940 --> 00:16:17,990 It does have to happen at the practice group level, the 313 00:16:18,000 --> 00:16:20,370 industry group level, and perhaps even at the individual 314 00:16:20,380 --> 00:16:22,480 level. And so we don't have enough of 315 00:16:22,490 --> 00:16:24,650 those conversations. And law firms, I would say it's 316 00:16:24,660 --> 00:16:28,710 difficult to get set and to resource that effectively to 317 00:16:28,720 --> 00:16:33,710 have a meaningful conversation informed by data, informed by 318 00:16:33,820 --> 00:16:38,930 financial information, informed by a real deep and inherent 319 00:16:38,940 --> 00:16:42,250 sense of where we are in the marketplace and and what kinds 320 00:16:42,260 --> 00:16:43,670 of clients we're trying to service. 321 00:16:44,400 --> 00:16:46,950 Less essential, once you have articulated some of those 322 00:16:46,960 --> 00:16:50,730 objectives, then you have to execute and that is the secret 323 00:16:50,740 --> 00:16:52,610 sauce. So execution and accountability 324 00:16:52,620 --> 00:16:56,250 are related here. Again, it's very easy to get off 325 00:16:56,260 --> 00:16:58,290 track. It is very easy to take that 326 00:16:58,300 --> 00:17:01,470 strategy, document that, plan that the stuff you've 327 00:17:01,480 --> 00:17:04,829 articulated, stuff it in a drawer and pull it out again 328 00:17:04,839 --> 00:17:06,319 next year when it's time to do planning. 329 00:17:07,000 --> 00:17:10,290 I see it happen all the time in law firms and it is a mistake. 330 00:17:10,339 --> 00:17:14,060 Execution is the secret sauce of actually being able to move the 331 00:17:14,069 --> 00:17:17,630 needle towards the achievement of those strategic objectives 332 00:17:17,960 --> 00:17:21,130 and the secret sauce within the execution is accountability. 333 00:17:21,140 --> 00:17:23,630 Now, how do we set up accountability processes in a 334 00:17:23,640 --> 00:17:25,089 law firm? It's really tricky. 335 00:17:25,140 --> 00:17:29,030 These are slow moving, somewhat inert business structures. 336 00:17:29,040 --> 00:17:33,510 There is a sort of a built in bias for those towards the end 337 00:17:33,520 --> 00:17:35,990 of their careers to not make big change, right? 338 00:17:36,000 --> 00:17:39,810 Especially in big law and this sort of 58 plus crowd who can 339 00:17:39,820 --> 00:17:42,480 kind of see the end and go, I don't want to rock the boat too 340 00:17:42,490 --> 00:17:46,790 much because I'm going to get my capital out here soon anyway and 341 00:17:47,220 --> 00:17:50,450 I don't need big change. However, setting up systems by 342 00:17:50,460 --> 00:17:54,530 which we shine some sunlight on the right behaviors, our people 343 00:17:54,540 --> 00:17:58,750 behaving in ways that are are bringing in top line revenue. 344 00:17:58,860 --> 00:18:02,470 Are people behaving in ways that bring in revenue that is in turn 345 00:18:02,480 --> 00:18:04,710 profitable. So not every hour is created 346 00:18:04,720 --> 00:18:07,480 equal. Are we going after profitable 347 00:18:07,490 --> 00:18:11,800 work and we can service that work profitably and and 348 00:18:11,810 --> 00:18:15,100 collaboratively, right? I would say that the, the 349 00:18:15,150 --> 00:18:20,090 effective and most successful offerings of the future are 350 00:18:20,100 --> 00:18:24,760 going to be those that enable their teams and reward 351 00:18:24,770 --> 00:18:28,100 collective behavior. It's almost antithetical to some 352 00:18:28,110 --> 00:18:30,120 of what we've been taught as young lawyers. 353 00:18:30,130 --> 00:18:32,560 It's it's almost antithetical to some of what we've been taught 354 00:18:32,570 --> 00:18:37,240 and sort of Western economies. But I think collective behavior 355 00:18:37,250 --> 00:18:41,280 and, and collective success and incentivizing collective success 356 00:18:41,530 --> 00:18:44,820 and incentivizing real collaboration is what's going to 357 00:18:44,830 --> 00:18:48,040 set apart the successful law firms in the future and is going 358 00:18:48,050 --> 00:18:51,900 to inoculate those law firms from the quote, UN quote, threat 359 00:18:51,960 --> 00:18:57,170 of the incursion of AI and legal practice, the downward pressure 360 00:18:57,180 --> 00:18:59,450 on fees. If you can, if you can deliver 361 00:18:59,460 --> 00:19:02,610 good value, all of that stuff's going to sit on the sidelines. 362 00:19:03,300 --> 00:19:06,550 And delivering good value is is about all of the sort of the 363 00:19:06,560 --> 00:19:09,270 concepts I talked about earlier, but it is about being 364 00:19:09,280 --> 00:19:11,990 accountable and acting collaboratively and acting 365 00:19:12,000 --> 00:19:14,070 collectively for the benefit of clients. 366 00:19:14,460 --> 00:19:17,350 Amazing. I really appreciate you sharing 367 00:19:17,420 --> 00:19:20,790 basically all the the trade secrets and, and lots of very, 368 00:19:20,800 --> 00:19:24,260 very nice insights. I'm curious here, you know, what 369 00:19:24,270 --> 00:19:26,960 you should dig in a little more about your personal story, 370 00:19:26,970 --> 00:19:28,460 something that ends up happening a lot. 371 00:19:28,470 --> 00:19:30,800 You know, I've done a few episodes on, you know, choosing 372 00:19:30,810 --> 00:19:35,230 your area in law and, and often find myself in conversations 373 00:19:35,240 --> 00:19:37,460 with people who like, what should I do? 374 00:19:37,470 --> 00:19:41,100 You know, I like XYZ. I like getting law school, But 375 00:19:41,110 --> 00:19:43,200 then in practice, it was so different. 376 00:19:43,290 --> 00:19:46,740 So people wearing unsure, you know, about their place in the 377 00:19:46,750 --> 00:19:50,600 profession or are thinking about it, maybe even a career change 378 00:19:50,690 --> 00:19:53,470 within the legal field. But what kind of advice would 379 00:19:53,480 --> 00:19:56,100 you give based maybe on on the experience you lived? 380 00:19:56,730 --> 00:19:58,230 Yeah. So, so let me back up a bit and 381 00:19:58,240 --> 00:19:59,880 tell you a bit more of of my journey. 382 00:20:00,190 --> 00:20:03,460 As I say, I was, you know, I was in in private practice, in 383 00:20:03,470 --> 00:20:06,410 house, in house. And and all throughout that, I 384 00:20:06,420 --> 00:20:08,920 think Claudio, I think, you know, there was a building sort 385 00:20:08,930 --> 00:20:12,640 of sense in my gut that I was not in my right place. 386 00:20:12,650 --> 00:20:15,480 I was not doing work that I particularly enjoyed. 387 00:20:15,770 --> 00:20:19,580 I don't think I was, I was growing necessarily as a, as a 388 00:20:19,590 --> 00:20:22,940 legal practitioner. And you know, with the benefit 389 00:20:22,950 --> 00:20:27,480 of sort of 20 years on, 25 years on, even you can analyze that 390 00:20:27,490 --> 00:20:28,950 and ask yourself, well, why was that? 391 00:20:30,170 --> 00:20:33,920 I think #1 as I say, I was not a particularly sophisticated young 392 00:20:33,930 --> 00:20:37,030 associate insofar as pushing for what I wanted. 393 00:20:37,040 --> 00:20:39,890 I'm pushing for practice areas and opportunities and files and 394 00:20:39,900 --> 00:20:42,300 exposure to partners that I, that I would have benefited 395 00:20:42,310 --> 00:20:45,040 from. I, I think I'm the classic case 396 00:20:45,110 --> 00:20:49,440 of the dialogue that happens now about law school education. 397 00:20:50,090 --> 00:20:53,700 Are we preparing young lawyers for the practice of law or are 398 00:20:53,710 --> 00:20:55,420 we sort of turning them into academics? 399 00:20:55,430 --> 00:20:58,860 And certainly now, you know, 25 years on from being in law 400 00:20:58,870 --> 00:21:01,030 school, I was probably the latter. 401 00:21:01,040 --> 00:21:02,880 I was someone who enjoyed the study of law. 402 00:21:02,890 --> 00:21:05,480 I was someone who probably had a very different conception of 403 00:21:05,490 --> 00:21:08,860 what practice was going to be based on my three years of law 404 00:21:08,870 --> 00:21:11,920 school. And then the eye opening in the 405 00:21:11,930 --> 00:21:15,340 first few weeks of being in private practice was really 406 00:21:15,350 --> 00:21:19,460 quite jarring, I must say. And so look, you know, every, 407 00:21:19,470 --> 00:21:20,980 everybody's journey is a little different. 408 00:21:20,990 --> 00:21:24,400 I, I think I benefited when I was, when I got to the sort of 409 00:21:24,410 --> 00:21:26,430 the end of the road and I said, this is not what I want to be 410 00:21:26,440 --> 00:21:28,570 doing. Practicing law is not for me. 411 00:21:28,640 --> 00:21:30,540 I need to explore some other paths. 412 00:21:30,550 --> 00:21:33,240 I had a couple things working for me #1 I didn't have a whole 413 00:21:33,250 --> 00:21:35,350 lot of lawyers in my family. I had no lawyers in my family. 414 00:21:35,360 --> 00:21:38,570 And so no one was particularly invested in me, you know, 415 00:21:38,580 --> 00:21:40,530 following a particularly traditional path. 416 00:21:40,740 --> 00:21:43,190 OK, I didn't have mom and dad over my shoulder going, Oh my 417 00:21:43,200 --> 00:21:45,210 God, we spent all this money on law school and now you're going 418 00:21:45,220 --> 00:21:47,210 to change careers. That wasn't an issue. 419 00:21:47,220 --> 00:21:49,770 So I, and that's, and that's a place of privilege, no question. 420 00:21:49,840 --> 00:21:52,610 I had a terrific peer group and friend group that we're doing 421 00:21:52,620 --> 00:21:54,250 interesting and different things as well. 422 00:21:54,260 --> 00:21:57,150 We weren't all going the sort of, you know, private practice 423 00:21:57,160 --> 00:21:59,190 route. I think most of us started 424 00:21:59,200 --> 00:22:01,710 there. But but I even at that stage of 425 00:22:01,720 --> 00:22:04,710 my career, you know, had people going off and going into banking 426 00:22:04,720 --> 00:22:07,190 and going into, you know, entrepreneurship and other, 427 00:22:07,200 --> 00:22:09,950 other sort of paths. And so I had a very supportive 428 00:22:10,140 --> 00:22:14,350 network of friends and peers who who were sort of, you know, the 429 00:22:14,360 --> 00:22:16,500 reaction was almost a shrug. And we, I mean, I'm not going to 430 00:22:16,510 --> 00:22:18,830 practice anymore. OK, What are you gonna do now? 431 00:22:19,440 --> 00:22:21,370 So not everybody has that, right. 432 00:22:21,420 --> 00:22:24,180 But I would say this, if, if you're a young lawyer and you're 433 00:22:24,190 --> 00:22:28,210 just, you got that gnawing feeling in your gut that this is 434 00:22:28,220 --> 00:22:32,130 not for me, I would say a couple of things to set yourself up for 435 00:22:32,140 --> 00:22:35,310 success #1 surround yourself with good people who will be 436 00:22:35,320 --> 00:22:37,780 supportive of that, right? And I think that's the lesson 437 00:22:37,790 --> 00:22:39,910 learned from me. I had that baked in. 438 00:22:39,920 --> 00:22:42,310 But I think not everybody necessarily has that baked in. 439 00:22:42,420 --> 00:22:44,470 You may have to go find it, right? 440 00:22:44,480 --> 00:22:49,290 Some people who can just kind of objectively offer you feedback, 441 00:22:49,300 --> 00:22:53,370 advice, mentorship and support for, for, you know, changing 442 00:22:53,380 --> 00:22:55,950 gears, changing lanes #2 do your homework. 443 00:22:55,960 --> 00:22:58,850 I mean, we've got, we've got, you know, more information 444 00:22:58,860 --> 00:23:02,130 sources than certainly I would add 25 years ago in the early 445 00:23:02,140 --> 00:23:05,150 days of the Internet about what else you can do with this 446 00:23:05,160 --> 00:23:08,270 degree. What, what other pathways might 447 00:23:08,280 --> 00:23:12,980 you want to to follow on to I, I, you know, I said in an 448 00:23:12,990 --> 00:23:15,860 article I was, I wrote it sometime back. 449 00:23:16,130 --> 00:23:20,300 Big law no longer has a monopoly on not just wealth creation, but 450 00:23:20,410 --> 00:23:25,350 you know, a healthy, happy living in law, right? 451 00:23:25,420 --> 00:23:28,450 And so, you know, there's lots of lanes, there's lots of room 452 00:23:28,460 --> 00:23:30,780 for everybody, I think, to find their path. 453 00:23:30,790 --> 00:23:32,890 And but but don't suffer in silence. 454 00:23:32,900 --> 00:23:35,260 Talk to people, talk to your colleagues, talk to your 455 00:23:35,270 --> 00:23:37,960 friends, talk to your loved ones, maybe even talk to your 456 00:23:37,970 --> 00:23:41,350 business colleagues, right? Because maybe there's a pathway 457 00:23:41,360 --> 00:23:43,090 for you there. If you've been knocking it out 458 00:23:43,100 --> 00:23:46,640 of the park for a client, maybe they'd be delighted to bring you 459 00:23:46,650 --> 00:23:48,160 on. Maybe they'd be delighted to 460 00:23:48,170 --> 00:23:51,360 talk about is there a path over here in a, in a, in a business 461 00:23:51,370 --> 00:23:54,200 capacity, in a corporate capacity, commercial capacity, 462 00:23:54,210 --> 00:23:56,720 regulatory capacity, whatever it might be. 463 00:23:56,830 --> 00:24:00,940 But I would say listen to your gut and do not feel or do not 464 00:24:00,950 --> 00:24:06,470 succumb to any self-inflicted pressure that it must look a 465 00:24:06,480 --> 00:24:09,450 certain way because it doesn't need to look a certain way. 466 00:24:09,460 --> 00:24:11,070 It should look the way you want it to look. 467 00:24:11,380 --> 00:24:13,470 Fantastic. I really appreciate you taking 468 00:24:13,480 --> 00:24:16,960 the time to come into podcast and share some thoughts, and 469 00:24:16,970 --> 00:24:19,230 thank you all so much for tuning into today's episode. 470 00:24:19,620 --> 00:24:20,670 Thanks, Claudio. Appreciate it.