1 00:00:12,870 --> 00:00:14,860 Welcome to Studying Law Around the World. 2 00:00:15,010 --> 00:00:17,860 I'm Claudio Claus. In each episode, I talk with 3 00:00:17,870 --> 00:00:20,840 lawyers, law students, and professors from different parts 4 00:00:20,850 --> 00:00:24,740 of the world to talk about legal education, careers, and what the 5 00:00:24,750 --> 00:00:26,420 profession looks like in real life. 6 00:00:26,430 --> 00:00:29,470 We talk about the hard parts, the surprises, and the decisions 7 00:00:29,480 --> 00:00:32,259 that shaped their paths. Whether you're planning to study 8 00:00:32,270 --> 00:00:35,520 abroad, thinking about working in another legal system, or just 9 00:00:35,530 --> 00:00:39,640 curious about how law works around the world, this podcast 10 00:00:39,650 --> 00:00:53,880 is for you. This episode is proudly 11 00:00:53,890 --> 00:00:57,700 sponsored by The Inner Advocate with Laura Mcinturff supporting 12 00:00:57,710 --> 00:01:01,260 lawyers and other business leaders around the world to 13 00:01:01,270 --> 00:01:04,780 transform important aspects of their work to realize more 14 00:01:04,790 --> 00:01:08,080 impact in their careers and feel more fulfilling life. 15 00:01:08,130 --> 00:01:11,720 You worked so hard to get this far in the legal profession, but 16 00:01:11,730 --> 00:01:14,880 now you're facing a challenge that you cannot ignore. 17 00:01:14,890 --> 00:01:16,700 Is this what it all came down to? 18 00:01:16,710 --> 00:01:18,800 I don't like some aspects of this career. 19 00:01:18,870 --> 00:01:22,280 How do I manage this difficult person or complex set of 20 00:01:22,290 --> 00:01:24,420 circumstances? Should I stay where I am? 21 00:01:24,430 --> 00:01:27,470 Go somewhere else or leave the legal professionals together. 22 00:01:27,560 --> 00:01:30,810 And the biggest question, what do I actually want from my 23 00:01:30,820 --> 00:01:34,750 career, from my life? Enter Laura Mcinturf, a former 24 00:01:34,820 --> 00:01:38,670 international lawyer turned executive coach who has faced 25 00:01:38,680 --> 00:01:42,070 these questions herself, as well as worked with hundreds of 26 00:01:42,080 --> 00:01:46,230 lawyers and other business leaders from over 55 countries 27 00:01:46,300 --> 00:01:49,890 on the same questions. She helps lawyers like you and 28 00:01:49,900 --> 00:01:53,910 me to capture the confusion and complexity and work through the 29 00:01:53,920 --> 00:01:55,930 real challenge. Is it time for a career 30 00:01:55,940 --> 00:01:58,430 transition? Is it a leadership challenge? 31 00:01:58,480 --> 00:02:00,410 Is it about work, life, integration? 32 00:02:00,460 --> 00:02:03,210 Is it just dreading Mondays? If you're feeling stuck in 33 00:02:03,220 --> 00:02:06,590 something, then connect with Laura Mcinturff on LinkedIn or 34 00:02:06,600 --> 00:02:11,180 visit the Inner Advocate Colon and book an exploratory call. 35 00:02:11,240 --> 00:02:14,660 It's time to stop ruminating and start navigating your way 36 00:02:14,670 --> 00:02:20,970 forward. Today, I have the pleasure to 37 00:02:20,980 --> 00:02:23,990 host Laura McIntyre. She's an international lawyer 38 00:02:24,000 --> 00:02:28,050 turned executive coach, coach and supervisor and ICF mentor 39 00:02:28,060 --> 00:02:30,290 coach. She has an incredible career and 40 00:02:30,300 --> 00:02:32,590 she has been through all the continents. 41 00:02:32,600 --> 00:02:35,200 So it's just great. Great pleasure. 42 00:02:35,210 --> 00:02:37,210 Great match to have her here in the podcast. 43 00:02:37,220 --> 00:02:39,250 Thank you so much for making the time to be here, Laura. 44 00:02:39,260 --> 00:02:41,630 Thanks for having me, Claudia. Absolutely. 45 00:02:41,700 --> 00:02:45,070 And to start podcast, I'd love for you to introduce yourself to 46 00:02:45,080 --> 00:02:48,190 our listeners and share a little bit about your journey from 47 00:02:48,200 --> 00:02:51,950 international law to coaching. Already mentioned, my name is 48 00:02:51,960 --> 00:02:55,610 Laura Mcinturf and I'm the founder of The Inner Advocate. 49 00:02:55,660 --> 00:02:58,770 I'm an American lawyer currently living in Germany. 50 00:02:58,820 --> 00:03:02,880 I started my life and career in the US as an accountant. 51 00:03:02,930 --> 00:03:05,860 Then I trained as a lawyer and worked in big law there. 52 00:03:05,910 --> 00:03:11,720 I then moved abroad for an LLM in Germany and worked in big law 53 00:03:11,730 --> 00:03:15,640 in Germany there as well. I am a qualified as an attorney 54 00:03:15,650 --> 00:03:19,250 in Ohio in the US and a solicitor of England and Wales, 55 00:03:19,260 --> 00:03:20,820 although I'm no longer practicing. 56 00:03:20,890 --> 00:03:24,040 So after the LLM in Germany, I married someone who then took 57 00:03:24,050 --> 00:03:28,640 several rather important expat assignments around the world and 58 00:03:28,650 --> 00:03:32,400 that took us back to the US and to China and then to Canada, 59 00:03:32,410 --> 00:03:34,760 where you are Claudio. And now we're back in Germany 60 00:03:34,770 --> 00:03:37,580 again. And for a lawyer moving across 61 00:03:37,590 --> 00:03:39,900 four different legal jurisdictions where I'm not 62 00:03:39,910 --> 00:03:44,540 licensed in the span of who was about 5 or 6 years, it really 63 00:03:44,550 --> 00:03:47,640 felt devastating my legal career, or so I thought at the 64 00:03:47,650 --> 00:03:49,260 time. And I realized that I was not 65 00:03:49,270 --> 00:03:51,960 going to be able to practice the law in a conventional sense. 66 00:03:51,970 --> 00:03:54,600 And my chosen life setup. And keep in mind, this was pre 67 00:03:54,610 --> 00:03:56,540 pandemic. And when I was exploring my 68 00:03:56,550 --> 00:04:00,000 options, a friend suggested that I would make a great executive 69 00:04:00,010 --> 00:04:01,670 coach. I looked into it, didn't really 70 00:04:01,680 --> 00:04:04,260 even know what it was, and decided to go for it on the 71 00:04:04,270 --> 00:04:06,700 premise that, well, the worst thing that could happen was that 72 00:04:06,710 --> 00:04:08,280 I would develop myself as a person. 73 00:04:08,370 --> 00:04:10,300 And I fell in love with the work of coaching. 74 00:04:10,310 --> 00:04:13,020 And I combined it with my legal background, which is where my 75 00:04:13,030 --> 00:04:14,920 business name comes from, the inner advocate. 76 00:04:14,930 --> 00:04:18,660 And since then, I've coached hundreds of lawyers and other 77 00:04:18,670 --> 00:04:21,779 leaders from over 55 countries. And as you mentioned at the 78 00:04:21,790 --> 00:04:24,640 beginning, I'm also a coaching supervisor and an ICF mentor 79 00:04:24,650 --> 00:04:28,260 coach for other lawyer coaches. And I work 100% virtually, which 80 00:04:28,270 --> 00:04:30,040 means they can work anywhere in the world. 81 00:04:30,050 --> 00:04:33,320 And I'm not limited limited to where I am licensed as a lawyer. 82 00:04:33,380 --> 00:04:36,300 So that was important. Amazing quite quite the path. 83 00:04:36,310 --> 00:04:39,600 I love that. Thank you for conspiracy to to 84 00:04:39,610 --> 00:04:42,620 drill in a little bit and learn more about those, you know, 85 00:04:42,670 --> 00:04:44,860 experiences that you had throughout your life. 86 00:04:44,870 --> 00:04:47,720 I'm curious, you know, when you first graduate, when you first 87 00:04:47,770 --> 00:04:52,600 start working, there's certain expectations and ideas and and 88 00:04:52,660 --> 00:04:57,340 all things that come into mind during your time at big firms. 89 00:04:57,390 --> 00:05:01,280 What did success mean to you and how has that changed for you 90 00:05:01,290 --> 00:05:01,790 over? Time. 91 00:05:01,800 --> 00:05:04,940 This is a great question because in law school I completely 92 00:05:04,950 --> 00:05:06,760 bought into the big law narrative. 93 00:05:07,170 --> 00:05:11,510 Success to me at the time meant big firms, biggest and most 94 00:05:11,520 --> 00:05:14,900 complex deals, those money involved and and success in my 95 00:05:14,910 --> 00:05:17,780 mind was very external and easy to articulate. 96 00:05:18,170 --> 00:05:21,000 Prestige, challenge, titles, connections, money, all that 97 00:05:21,010 --> 00:05:22,780 kind of stuff. And what I ignored in that 98 00:05:22,790 --> 00:05:26,140 definition was the internal and let's say more difficult stuff 99 00:05:26,150 --> 00:05:29,060 to quantify or show. So how I felt physically, 100 00:05:29,110 --> 00:05:33,450 emotionally and spiritually. And now after all these years 101 00:05:33,460 --> 00:05:36,670 and, and of course, with some credit to the coaching 102 00:05:36,680 --> 00:05:40,250 profession and in my shift and, and mindset, I consider my view 103 00:05:40,260 --> 00:05:42,310 to be more balanced among those things. 104 00:05:42,320 --> 00:05:45,210 So intellectual, physical, emotional and spiritual, of 105 00:05:45,220 --> 00:05:48,730 course, some of them are more difficult to see or measure. 106 00:05:48,740 --> 00:05:52,090 And so now what I would say, quote UN quote, success means to 107 00:05:52,100 --> 00:05:55,650 me is I have very challenging work alongside consistent sleep. 108 00:05:55,660 --> 00:05:57,950 I eat well, I see my family often. 109 00:05:57,960 --> 00:06:02,370 I connect with what I feel is is greater than me and more and I 110 00:06:02,380 --> 00:06:04,970 have a lot of autonomy and flexibility around how I spend 111 00:06:04,980 --> 00:06:06,910 my life. And the shift has really been 112 00:06:06,920 --> 00:06:09,850 from external metrics to more of an internal focus to what I 113 00:06:09,860 --> 00:06:12,630 value around family, health, freedom, love. 114 00:06:12,700 --> 00:06:16,530 And that's how I define what is important for me right now. 115 00:06:16,640 --> 00:06:20,450 And while others around my age, I won't disclose my age, I'm 116 00:06:20,460 --> 00:06:23,230 kind of in the middle of a lot of people at this stage can go 117 00:06:23,240 --> 00:06:26,060 through what people have described as a midlife crisis. 118 00:06:26,070 --> 00:06:28,850 And I kind of really describe what I meant as in the middle of 119 00:06:28,860 --> 00:06:31,150 a midlife clarity. So it's it's been a pretty big 120 00:06:31,160 --> 00:06:32,230 shift. It's a great question. 121 00:06:32,300 --> 00:06:33,710 Amazing. That's incredible. 122 00:06:33,720 --> 00:06:37,950 And I can only imagine, you know, having those expectations 123 00:06:37,960 --> 00:06:40,880 and, and that, you know, part of life happening. 124 00:06:40,890 --> 00:06:43,790 And as you had just mentioned, when you move across countries, 125 00:06:43,800 --> 00:06:46,840 that can be, you know, quite frustrating if you're, you know, 126 00:06:46,850 --> 00:06:48,780 learning how to become licensed again. 127 00:06:48,790 --> 00:06:51,840 And then maybe it takes a, you know, a whole another year in 128 00:06:51,850 --> 00:06:55,120 the process, then maybe you have another assignment and have to 129 00:06:55,430 --> 00:06:58,880 move somewhere else. So it's, it's quite interesting 130 00:06:58,890 --> 00:07:02,080 to, to think about all those things along with those personal 131 00:07:02,090 --> 00:07:04,880 expectations and, and all of that that you just mentioned. 132 00:07:04,890 --> 00:07:08,760 I think that's so interesting to hear more about alignment, more 133 00:07:08,770 --> 00:07:11,450 about, you know, what the, the real needs and what the 134 00:07:11,460 --> 00:07:13,440 definition of success can be for each of us. 135 00:07:13,450 --> 00:07:19,330 I love that you shared that for today's interview. 136 00:07:19,340 --> 00:07:22,740 I wanted you to hear a little bit more from you about, you 137 00:07:22,750 --> 00:07:28,550 know, this very specific point, I think, which is a speed, 138 00:07:28,610 --> 00:07:31,890 pressure pace. And I'm curious, you know, now 139 00:07:31,900 --> 00:07:34,650 that you've talked with lawyer Zara across the globe and you 140 00:07:34,660 --> 00:07:36,940 have an incredible community of then as well. 141 00:07:37,020 --> 00:07:40,000 Why didn't you hear? What kind of patterns do you see 142 00:07:40,070 --> 00:07:42,810 across cultures in the legal profession regarding that 143 00:07:42,820 --> 00:07:45,160 regarding. Yeah, I think this is is a is a 144 00:07:45,170 --> 00:07:48,760 more complicated question than it sounds at 1st and I'll just 145 00:07:48,770 --> 00:07:51,320 use a personal example as a point. 146 00:07:51,330 --> 00:07:55,600 So I assumed that because, well, at least my perception of the 147 00:07:55,610 --> 00:07:58,760 German culture is that it generally values free time and a 148 00:07:58,770 --> 00:08:01,900 slower pace of life, that working in a German legal office 149 00:08:01,990 --> 00:08:05,970 would be very different from working in a US legal office. 150 00:08:06,040 --> 00:08:07,960 And it was actually the opposite for me. 151 00:08:08,160 --> 00:08:11,170 The hours here in Germany were longer and the weekends were 152 00:08:11,180 --> 00:08:13,790 less protected. And what that taught me is that 153 00:08:13,840 --> 00:08:17,430 areas of the legal profession carry their own sort of internal 154 00:08:17,440 --> 00:08:20,130 culture around speed and pressure, one that can even 155 00:08:20,140 --> 00:08:22,990 override, let's say, the national culture around it. 156 00:08:23,000 --> 00:08:26,110 So speed and the law, from my perspective and working with a 157 00:08:26,120 --> 00:08:29,370 lot of people and in my own experience as well, is it the 158 00:08:29,380 --> 00:08:32,049 speed really sits at the intersection of a lot of 159 00:08:32,059 --> 00:08:34,730 different factors. Societal culture within which 160 00:08:34,740 --> 00:08:37,110 you work and live could play a role. 161 00:08:37,120 --> 00:08:39,210 Maybe it doesn't. The legal professions own 162 00:08:39,220 --> 00:08:41,690 internal culture around speed, which maybe we'll get to a 163 00:08:41,700 --> 00:08:44,690 little bit later. More specifically, the practice 164 00:08:44,700 --> 00:08:47,340 area you work in and the legal systems that govern it. 165 00:08:47,410 --> 00:08:50,580 Of course, the leader partner, a manager you work with and their 166 00:08:50,590 --> 00:08:53,480 internalized ideas about speed. It could be your team, 167 00:08:53,490 --> 00:08:55,800 department or partnership and its group pace. 168 00:08:55,810 --> 00:08:57,410 And the list is going on here, right? 169 00:08:57,420 --> 00:09:00,460 The features of your client, which you can can reflect any of 170 00:09:00,470 --> 00:09:03,560 these influences as well, right? Their culture, industry, 171 00:09:03,570 --> 00:09:07,260 manager, team and so on. And just as important is our own 172 00:09:07,270 --> 00:09:09,360 personal internal sense for speed. 173 00:09:09,410 --> 00:09:12,280 So we're going to have our own conditioning, neurology and 174 00:09:12,290 --> 00:09:14,600 history with it. And the last factor I think is 175 00:09:14,610 --> 00:09:17,320 the one that maybe many people underestimate. 176 00:09:17,330 --> 00:09:20,860 And it's really important because some lawyers don't 177 00:09:20,870 --> 00:09:24,040 arrive to the profession and then get turned into speed as 178 00:09:24,050 --> 00:09:27,020 identity people. They arrive already wired that 179 00:09:27,030 --> 00:09:28,740 way. So if you're in a high drive 180 00:09:28,870 --> 00:09:31,640 only system, you've had achievement as love, 181 00:09:31,650 --> 00:09:35,320 perfectionism or let's say neurodivergent hyper focus or 182 00:09:35,330 --> 00:09:39,550 the immigrant hustle. The the identity that speed is 183 00:09:39,560 --> 00:09:43,320 good, the output is worth is already running for these people 184 00:09:43,330 --> 00:09:46,330 long before, let's say law school, it shows up. 185 00:09:46,340 --> 00:09:49,040 And I was one of those people. I grew up in a household where 186 00:09:49,050 --> 00:09:52,130 the rule was being on time is late and at school and in 187 00:09:52,140 --> 00:09:54,310 sports, being the fastest was rewarded. 188 00:09:54,360 --> 00:09:57,270 So speed was not something I learned by being a lawyer. 189 00:09:57,280 --> 00:09:59,050 It was something I already brought to the career. 190 00:09:59,120 --> 00:10:00,590 So the profession didn't install it. 191 00:10:00,600 --> 00:10:01,960 It just kind of confirmed it for me. 192 00:10:01,970 --> 00:10:04,560 That's so interesting. It seems like quite often 193 00:10:04,570 --> 00:10:08,210 there's a lot of incentives to be, you know, fast-paced and to 194 00:10:08,220 --> 00:10:11,410 be quite quick with all kinds of things being, you know, 195 00:10:11,480 --> 00:10:14,810 answering those emails that come in, be it, you know, fulfilling 196 00:10:14,820 --> 00:10:17,730 mandates. And I'm curious to hear a little 197 00:10:17,740 --> 00:10:20,720 bit more about your thoughts on, you know, why speed be so 198 00:10:20,730 --> 00:10:24,160 rewarded in law And even, you know, our lawyers trained to 199 00:10:24,170 --> 00:10:28,560 equate fast with good. I think for for some of us who 200 00:10:28,570 --> 00:10:31,080 train or have trained in law school under the Socratic method 201 00:10:31,090 --> 00:10:34,200 like I did, so I can only use my experience as an example. 202 00:10:34,450 --> 00:10:37,700 I think this is where it can start being called on in law 203 00:10:37,710 --> 00:10:40,660 school and in my experience meant being expected to have an 204 00:10:40,670 --> 00:10:43,660 immediate confident answer. I mean, in some classes you were 205 00:10:43,670 --> 00:10:45,550 allowed to pass once or something like that. 206 00:10:45,560 --> 00:10:48,400 But I got the implicit message from the first day. 207 00:10:48,410 --> 00:10:52,280 Well, speed is competence. And for some lawyers, this is 208 00:10:52,290 --> 00:10:55,540 the moment when speed shifts from being a tool to to an 209 00:10:55,550 --> 00:10:57,480 identity, right? So before law school, maybe 210 00:10:57,490 --> 00:11:00,380 being fast was a preference or strength, but by training as a 211 00:11:00,390 --> 00:11:02,320 lawyer, it can become something else. 212 00:11:02,330 --> 00:11:05,230 It's a signal of do you belong? Do you belong in the profession 213 00:11:05,240 --> 00:11:06,600 or are you good enough to be here? 214 00:11:06,650 --> 00:11:09,900 Are you a real lawyer? And for other people who've 215 00:11:09,910 --> 00:11:12,910 already arrived with speed as identity like I did, it doesn't 216 00:11:12,920 --> 00:11:14,560 create the shift, it just confirms it. 217 00:11:14,810 --> 00:11:18,500 And for for those of us where it was confirmed, we have a harder 218 00:11:18,510 --> 00:11:21,580 road and managing our speed because there's no earlier self 219 00:11:21,650 --> 00:11:24,320 or pre fast self to reference or remember. 220 00:11:24,330 --> 00:11:27,400 And either way, whether it's created or confirmed in a lot of 221 00:11:27,410 --> 00:11:29,280 cases is just not ever examined again. 222 00:11:29,290 --> 00:11:32,060 After that, we just kind of go fast and go faster. 223 00:11:32,110 --> 00:11:35,370 And so by the time lawyers reach the practice of law right, the 224 00:11:35,380 --> 00:11:38,020 conditioning is deep and speed gets rewarded structurally 225 00:11:38,030 --> 00:11:41,260 through billable hours, client responsiveness, deadline 226 00:11:41,270 --> 00:11:44,360 expectations and so on. So identity and structure just 227 00:11:44,370 --> 00:11:47,560 reinforce each other. When lawyers are always moving 228 00:11:47,570 --> 00:11:50,480 fast, what do they lose? Are there things that you can 229 00:11:50,550 --> 00:11:53,760 notice that you hear people mentioning or that you know 230 00:11:53,770 --> 00:11:56,500 through your experience you've been made more and more aware? 231 00:11:56,510 --> 00:12:02,230 I think it takes a lot of maybe taking in observational mode and 232 00:12:02,240 --> 00:12:05,890 not being in the middle of this, you know, speedy environment to 233 00:12:05,900 --> 00:12:09,480 be able to notice that. I'm, I'm curious, did they lose 234 00:12:09,520 --> 00:12:11,730 creativity? Is it about that? 235 00:12:11,960 --> 00:12:15,170 Is it about, you know, judgment? What are some of the the points 236 00:12:15,180 --> 00:12:16,930 that you notice when that happens? 237 00:12:17,040 --> 00:12:20,610 If this is a good question and I think the you mentioned stepping 238 00:12:20,620 --> 00:12:23,850 back and and observing some of coaching, not all of the time we 239 00:12:23,860 --> 00:12:27,250 talk about the the beliefs that we maybe aren't aware that we 240 00:12:27,260 --> 00:12:29,570 hold. And if we just step back for a 241 00:12:29,580 --> 00:12:32,130 second, I'm going to answer the part about what we lose when we 242 00:12:32,140 --> 00:12:34,100 move too fast. But if we go back and just look 243 00:12:34,110 --> 00:12:37,370 at the belief a little bit more and I mentioned the one that I 244 00:12:37,380 --> 00:12:39,330 have held, which is speed is competence. 245 00:12:39,340 --> 00:12:42,320 And I'll add one that some of my clients also sometimes there 246 00:12:42,330 --> 00:12:46,970 that hesitation is weakness and to just challenge those ideas or 247 00:12:46,980 --> 00:12:50,170 ideas that are similar to those, you know, is hesitation 248 00:12:50,180 --> 00:12:52,230 weakness. Citation can be an intelligent 249 00:12:52,240 --> 00:12:54,250 first response. It's it's a signal that 250 00:12:54,260 --> 00:12:55,730 something deserves more attention. 251 00:12:55,740 --> 00:12:58,390 And figuring out what deserves your attention is worth 252 00:12:58,400 --> 00:13:01,870 understanding, not avoiding the question is not why am I 253 00:13:01,880 --> 00:13:03,970 hesitating as sort of a self criticism? 254 00:13:03,980 --> 00:13:06,750 It's well, what is this feeling of hesitation telling me? 255 00:13:06,800 --> 00:13:10,170 And about speed is competence. The lawyer who always has an 256 00:13:10,180 --> 00:13:13,150 immediate answer may not be the most competent person in the 257 00:13:13,160 --> 00:13:15,110 room. Moving fast can be a sign of 258 00:13:15,120 --> 00:13:19,250 things like avoiding deeper fears, complexity, not knowing 259 00:13:19,260 --> 00:13:20,950 or difficult emotions in the room. 260 00:13:21,020 --> 00:13:23,150 And to go back to their point, you asked about what what 261 00:13:23,160 --> 00:13:25,030 lawyers could lose by moving too fast. 262 00:13:25,120 --> 00:13:28,570 Wind speed is seen as a tool. You can choose to deploy it when 263 00:13:28,580 --> 00:13:31,760 the situation calls for it and then set it down when it 264 00:13:31,770 --> 00:13:33,800 doesn't. So when speed is your identity, 265 00:13:33,810 --> 00:13:36,340 that choice is gone. And then that's when the cost 266 00:13:36,350 --> 00:13:39,120 starts to accumulate across different career stages. 267 00:13:39,130 --> 00:13:43,280 So for example, junior lawyers, one of the major costs is your 268 00:13:43,290 --> 00:13:45,980 development speeds means, yeah, you get through the task 269 00:13:45,990 --> 00:13:47,600 quickly. You send out the emails, you 270 00:13:47,610 --> 00:13:50,590 you, you record your time or whatever else needs to be done. 271 00:13:50,600 --> 00:13:53,560 But maybe you missed becoming a well-rounded lawyer in the 272 00:13:53,570 --> 00:13:56,060 process. So you miss some nuances of the 273 00:13:56,070 --> 00:13:59,700 law, maybe opportunities for mentoring, building client 274 00:13:59,710 --> 00:14:01,920 connections overtime, these kinds of things. 275 00:14:01,930 --> 00:14:05,420 And for senior lawyers, a cost can be in your leadership, the 276 00:14:05,430 --> 00:14:07,480 identity to serve you on the way up. 277 00:14:07,530 --> 00:14:09,310 Right, let's move classless deliver. 278 00:14:09,320 --> 00:14:11,770 Let's be the expert. It can become an obstacle when 279 00:14:11,780 --> 00:14:14,390 you shift into leadership because leadership is more about 280 00:14:14,400 --> 00:14:19,050 people and less about the task. And this requires slowing down 281 00:14:19,100 --> 00:14:22,850 to spend more time thinking strategically, delegating, 282 00:14:22,860 --> 00:14:26,810 empowering others, and more. And beneath all of this or both 283 00:14:26,820 --> 00:14:30,620 of those points, when we run our intellect so fast, all other 284 00:14:30,630 --> 00:14:33,710 important categories of ourself become invisible to us. 285 00:14:33,780 --> 00:14:38,770 The body signals are felt, sense, intuition, emotions. 286 00:14:38,780 --> 00:14:41,710 These are critical sources of intelligence that tend to 287 00:14:41,720 --> 00:14:45,410 operate on a slower timetable. The result is lawyers who are 288 00:14:45,420 --> 00:14:48,670 extraordinary thinkers but increasingly cut off from the 289 00:14:48,680 --> 00:14:51,970 parts of themselves needed for building trusting relationships, 290 00:14:52,060 --> 00:14:54,400 creative thinking, stronger physical health and. 291 00:14:54,410 --> 00:14:57,960 More that is so interesting. As you were saying, my mind kind 292 00:14:57,970 --> 00:15:02,620 of wandered as well in the sense of, is there also a risk of, you 293 00:15:02,630 --> 00:15:06,420 know, getting to the end of your career 30 years in and, and kind 294 00:15:06,430 --> 00:15:09,890 of realizing that it all just happened so quickly and, and 295 00:15:09,900 --> 00:15:13,200 that maybe, you know, a lot of the attributes that you wanted 296 00:15:13,210 --> 00:15:16,740 to develop as a professional and, and as a person kind of got 297 00:15:16,750 --> 00:15:21,040 lost in the way. Um, I'm, I'm curious here, kinda 298 00:15:21,050 --> 00:15:24,640 at speed become a form of avoidance, you know, keeping us 299 00:15:24,650 --> 00:15:27,900 from maybe facing those bigger questions about, you know, our 300 00:15:27,910 --> 00:15:30,700 career, our purpose. When I think about this, I think 301 00:15:30,710 --> 00:15:34,190 that maybe people who were in the job market, you know, 20 302 00:15:34,200 --> 00:15:38,740 years ago or so didn't maybe have had the opportunity to 303 00:15:38,750 --> 00:15:42,560 think that much about it or, or maybe we as a society didn't 304 00:15:42,570 --> 00:15:45,360 bring those topics as much, especially in the profession. 305 00:15:45,370 --> 00:15:48,130 But I'd love to hear some of your thoughts on that sense. 306 00:15:48,140 --> 00:15:51,680 Well, first of all, I just want to say I love working and and 307 00:15:51,690 --> 00:15:54,670 the coaching field now at this time of history relative to the 308 00:15:54,680 --> 00:15:56,760 legal profession, because there's so many young people 309 00:15:56,770 --> 00:16:00,370 like you who asked these kinds of questions that I know 20 310 00:16:00,380 --> 00:16:03,390 years ago when I was starting out that wouldn't have you 311 00:16:03,400 --> 00:16:05,530 thought about it? I mean, the Internet was kind of 312 00:16:05,540 --> 00:16:07,310 still a baby. We were, I think I was just 313 00:16:07,320 --> 00:16:09,980 handed my first BlackBerry, if that ages me for anybody out 314 00:16:09,990 --> 00:16:12,510 there who's listening. But I love that you're asking 315 00:16:12,520 --> 00:16:16,610 these things because there's, it shows like the curiosity that 316 00:16:16,660 --> 00:16:19,840 maybe a lot of us just maybe you didn't even have the courage to 317 00:16:19,850 --> 00:16:21,080 bring. So anyway, back to your 318 00:16:21,090 --> 00:16:23,670 question, can speed become a form of avoidance? 319 00:16:23,680 --> 00:16:26,670 And yes, I think it can. The genuine business, the real 320 00:16:26,680 --> 00:16:29,060 client demands. There's a lot going on and 321 00:16:29,070 --> 00:16:30,610 there's a lot of it that is fast. 322 00:16:30,670 --> 00:16:35,050 But it can become an excuse not to face questions that feel 323 00:16:35,220 --> 00:16:38,290 threatening to our working identities as lawyers because at 324 00:16:38,300 --> 00:16:43,090 different points in our career, even people who are still before 325 00:16:43,100 --> 00:16:45,780 law school and thinking about it, is this the right expression 326 00:16:45,790 --> 00:16:47,870 for me? And maybe it's a yes now, but in 327 00:16:47,880 --> 00:16:50,720 10 years it's not or is this still the right role for me? 328 00:16:50,730 --> 00:16:53,850 Because it's a lot easier to get into the, to the, the, the daily 329 00:16:53,860 --> 00:16:57,650 grind and, and not face the fact that maybe you just are deeply 330 00:16:57,660 --> 00:17:00,170 unhappy or, or this doesn't feel right anymore. 331 00:17:00,240 --> 00:17:02,830 It felt right at one point, but not anymore or another question 332 00:17:02,840 --> 00:17:04,109 what I actually went out of my life. 333 00:17:04,119 --> 00:17:07,130 It's not necessarily only about what you do in your the career 334 00:17:07,140 --> 00:17:08,829 part of it. There's many other aspects to us 335 00:17:08,839 --> 00:17:13,290 as people working as is is one part of us, but not necessarily 336 00:17:13,300 --> 00:17:15,369 all of us. And you know, humans are wired 337 00:17:15,380 --> 00:17:18,650 to avoid discomfort and speed is a particularly effective 338 00:17:18,660 --> 00:17:21,869 avoidance mechanism because, well, we know it's rewarded. 339 00:17:21,880 --> 00:17:23,310 You're not hiding, you're working. 340 00:17:23,760 --> 00:17:26,030 No one questions the lawyer who's busy, right. 341 00:17:26,040 --> 00:17:29,100 So you know what? And, and maybe it's it's useful 342 00:17:29,110 --> 00:17:32,300 to make a distinction here between speed and movement. 343 00:17:32,370 --> 00:17:36,540 You can produce at high velocity emails, decisions, deliverables 344 00:17:36,550 --> 00:17:40,340 and arrive at the end of a year or a decade in the exact same 345 00:17:40,350 --> 00:17:42,080 place you started. And if you're cool with that, 346 00:17:42,090 --> 00:17:43,560 great. But a lot of people actually 347 00:17:43,570 --> 00:17:46,120 aren't. And so the bigger identity 348 00:17:46,130 --> 00:17:49,300 questions about meaning, direction, purpose, they really 349 00:17:49,310 --> 00:17:51,320 do require slowing down to access. 350 00:17:51,530 --> 00:17:55,360 And those they do not arise to the surface when everything is 351 00:17:55,370 --> 00:17:57,660 moving really fast. They appear in the pauses. 352 00:17:57,670 --> 00:18:00,080 That's incredible. Building on what you just said, 353 00:18:00,090 --> 00:18:04,140 I'm curious to hear what does chronic urgency do to a lawyer 354 00:18:04,150 --> 00:18:06,620 over time, both professionally and personally? 355 00:18:06,670 --> 00:18:09,180 I'm glad you're asking this now when you're in the early stages 356 00:18:09,190 --> 00:18:11,890 of your career because you can take advantage of this for the 357 00:18:11,900 --> 00:18:14,210 many years to come. And anybody else is listening, 358 00:18:14,220 --> 00:18:16,760 of course, can too. So I mentioned earlier about 359 00:18:16,770 --> 00:18:20,230 some different dimensions about how I, I look at my life now. 360 00:18:20,240 --> 00:18:24,310 And I also do this with a lot of my clients and we use an 361 00:18:24,320 --> 00:18:29,600 acronym, it's called PIES P i.e. S and one really fantastic 362 00:18:29,610 --> 00:18:33,370 lawyer I worked with, it also added an R so became PISER. 363 00:18:33,380 --> 00:18:35,050 So it doesn't really sound so great as an acronym. 364 00:18:35,060 --> 00:18:37,350 PISART, Pfizer. But anyway, to go through them 365 00:18:37,360 --> 00:18:40,010 quickly here. So the P represents physical. 366 00:18:40,020 --> 00:18:44,330 So of course, health issues show up and the body keeps the score. 367 00:18:44,340 --> 00:18:47,150 As many who are listening will know from Bessel Vanderkolk's 368 00:18:47,160 --> 00:18:50,800 book of the same time, the same title, these issues tend to 369 00:18:50,810 --> 00:18:54,350 arrive as symptoms that feel unrelated to the speed at which 370 00:18:54,360 --> 00:18:58,090 you work until somebody doctor, coach, a loved one draws the 371 00:18:58,100 --> 00:19:01,370 connection for you. Hi, so chronic speed can produce 372 00:19:01,380 --> 00:19:04,890 cognitive overload, which can lead to reduced working memory, 373 00:19:04,900 --> 00:19:07,330 shortened attention span, more errors. 374 00:19:07,340 --> 00:19:11,090 And what happens is you can tend to move quickly across the 375 00:19:11,100 --> 00:19:14,500 surface of things and then start to miss opportunities where 376 00:19:14,510 --> 00:19:17,680 depth could make a real difference in the worker for 377 00:19:17,690 --> 00:19:20,310 your client outcomes. The E is a motional. 378 00:19:20,320 --> 00:19:24,710 So going really fast or having a high pace or fast speed can mean 379 00:19:24,720 --> 00:19:28,430 bypassing our emotions entirely. If you're really moving fast, 380 00:19:28,500 --> 00:19:30,210 you don't have to feel what's underneath. 381 00:19:30,220 --> 00:19:34,310 Oh, you could be very productive and be avoiding feeling fear or 382 00:19:34,320 --> 00:19:38,820 anger, sadness or even joy. S spiritual there's like the 383 00:19:38,830 --> 00:19:41,460 biggest questions who am I what matters? 384 00:19:41,470 --> 00:19:44,460 What is all this for? They never get asked because 385 00:19:44,470 --> 00:19:47,640 they require a quality of attention and and slowing down 386 00:19:47,650 --> 00:19:51,260 and stillness that just going fast makes impossible and the 387 00:19:51,330 --> 00:19:55,400 the R so the pies are the R people around fast moving 388 00:19:55,410 --> 00:19:57,300 lawyers. So like our spouses, our 389 00:19:57,310 --> 00:19:59,700 children, our parents, our friends, our neighbors and so 390 00:19:59,710 --> 00:20:02,710 on. They can start to experience the 391 00:20:02,720 --> 00:20:05,680 relationship with you is increasingly transactional or 392 00:20:05,690 --> 00:20:11,160 distracted or absent, and the damage accumulates quietly and 393 00:20:11,170 --> 00:20:14,740 tends to become visible only when it's really significant and 394 00:20:14,750 --> 00:20:18,760 perhaps irreparable. Some interesting, you know, 395 00:20:18,770 --> 00:20:22,760 points to to think about, and in a way quite scary to. 396 00:20:24,200 --> 00:20:26,490 Sorry for. That right, that's amazing. 397 00:20:26,500 --> 00:20:27,890 Well, thank you for sharing that. 398 00:20:29,350 --> 00:20:32,460 I'm curious to hear, you know, as someone helping people in 399 00:20:32,470 --> 00:20:38,250 this area, what, what, what have you seen changing when a lawyer 400 00:20:38,260 --> 00:20:42,730 intentionally shows up and how can reflection become a 401 00:20:42,740 --> 00:20:45,230 competitive advantage? We just talked about, you know, 402 00:20:45,240 --> 00:20:49,420 maybe the incentives you'd have to be quick and to, you know, go 403 00:20:49,430 --> 00:20:52,290 faster. But after we hear about Pfizer, 404 00:20:52,300 --> 00:20:55,590 that that sounds quite concerning to go, you know, a 405 00:20:55,600 --> 00:20:58,820 whole lifetime unchecked. So what are some of the things 406 00:20:58,830 --> 00:21:02,690 that you've seen? So the reframe that works for a 407 00:21:02,700 --> 00:21:05,870 lot of professionals, not only lawyers, but all the different 408 00:21:05,920 --> 00:21:09,710 types of people I work with, that slowing down is how you get 409 00:21:09,720 --> 00:21:12,290 to your goals more quickly. And this is one of the great 410 00:21:12,300 --> 00:21:16,510 paradoxes of professional life. If we're always going fast, we 411 00:21:16,520 --> 00:21:19,160 might be going fast in a direction we don't want to go 412 00:21:19,170 --> 00:21:21,100 in. So if we slow down, figure out 413 00:21:21,110 --> 00:21:23,450 where we want to be going, that's slowing down gets us 414 00:21:23,460 --> 00:21:26,340 there faster and the intellect operates fast. 415 00:21:26,400 --> 00:21:29,620 A lot of us as lawyers, I mean, This is why we like the 416 00:21:29,630 --> 00:21:32,240 profession and why we like the work because, you know, really 417 00:21:32,250 --> 00:21:34,280 gets us going and it challenges us. 418 00:21:34,330 --> 00:21:38,180 However, the intuition and felt sense just operate more slowly. 419 00:21:38,630 --> 00:21:42,000 And a lawyer who never slows down is just permanently cut off 420 00:21:42,010 --> 00:21:44,940 from those other aspects of their inner intelligence. 421 00:21:44,950 --> 00:21:47,680 And This is why I continue to to love coaching. 422 00:21:47,690 --> 00:21:50,790 Is it because it one of its kind of, we don't describe it when 423 00:21:50,800 --> 00:21:52,240 you talk about, well, what is coaching? 424 00:21:52,250 --> 00:21:55,000 But one of the benefits of coaching is that you access 425 00:21:55,010 --> 00:21:58,220 these other forms of intelligence, the whole you, not 426 00:21:58,230 --> 00:22:01,480 just, you know, your executive function and and your logical 427 00:22:01,550 --> 00:22:03,810 art. It accesses the other parts of 428 00:22:03,940 --> 00:22:06,390 of you. And coaching helps to build a 429 00:22:06,400 --> 00:22:09,590 habit of slowing down and it creates the conditions to go 430 00:22:09,600 --> 00:22:14,310 deeper on what actually matters. So reflecting on what is working 431 00:22:14,360 --> 00:22:17,290 and what is not working, asking what a given experience is 432 00:22:17,300 --> 00:22:21,890 teaching you, attending to the quality of relationships rather 433 00:22:21,900 --> 00:22:24,220 than just the volume of outputs and so on. 434 00:22:24,230 --> 00:22:27,140 And this is where I think AI enters the chat. 435 00:22:27,150 --> 00:22:29,110 I know you and I didn't discuss this before, Claudio, but I'm 436 00:22:29,120 --> 00:22:31,480 going to bring it. I think it's useful here because 437 00:22:31,530 --> 00:22:34,340 the capacities that AI can't replicate, right? 438 00:22:34,350 --> 00:22:37,400 The quality of human presence and connection, sensing what's 439 00:22:37,410 --> 00:22:41,820 not being said, that the Gray area of ethics, A strategic use 440 00:22:41,830 --> 00:22:45,290 of silence. Reading the room, the wisdom 441 00:22:45,300 --> 00:22:48,760 that comes from lived experience, all of these require 442 00:22:48,770 --> 00:22:51,400 something other than speed. There was an article in the New 443 00:22:51,410 --> 00:22:54,180 York Times yesterday it was titled I think it was that that 444 00:22:54,190 --> 00:22:57,000 meeting you hate may keep AI from stealing your job or 445 00:22:57,010 --> 00:22:59,770 something like that. And it said AI cannot do this. 446 00:22:59,780 --> 00:23:03,760 Sometimes messier human tasks of like debating, lobbying, arm 447 00:23:03,770 --> 00:23:07,170 twisting, selling, reassuring, finding agreement or alignment 448 00:23:07,180 --> 00:23:09,880 among many stakeholders and lawyers who are actively 449 00:23:09,890 --> 00:23:13,870 cultivating these kinds of capacities have a future that AI 450 00:23:13,880 --> 00:23:17,140 can't compete with but but can sit next to it can only sit next 451 00:23:17,150 --> 00:23:18,500 to those. And the lawyers who are 452 00:23:18,510 --> 00:23:22,140 primarily competing on knowledge and speed are competing on two 453 00:23:22,150 --> 00:23:24,440 of the two of the dimensions where machines have a growing 454 00:23:24,450 --> 00:23:26,960 advantage. So this is where reflection 455 00:23:26,970 --> 00:23:30,060 becomes slowing down becomes a competitive advantage. 456 00:23:30,070 --> 00:23:32,360 Fantastic. If someone is suspecting that 457 00:23:32,370 --> 00:23:35,780 they're, you know, becoming addicted to speed, what signs 458 00:23:35,790 --> 00:23:40,080 should they be looking out for? What's one small shift that they 459 00:23:40,090 --> 00:23:44,130 could make starting this week? I like this question because 460 00:23:44,140 --> 00:23:46,580 this is all great talk, right? But like, what am I going to do 461 00:23:46,590 --> 00:23:51,390 with all this signs to look for? So when speed is a tool, you can 462 00:23:51,400 --> 00:23:54,070 put it down. When it's your identity, you can 463 00:23:54,080 --> 00:23:57,470 struggle to stop even when you know it's better to do so. 464 00:23:57,540 --> 00:24:00,570 So speed isn't the problem. Speed is fine. 465 00:24:00,640 --> 00:24:04,260 We need it sometimes it's the inability to change speed that's 466 00:24:04,270 --> 00:24:06,670 the sign that there's an issue. So here are some other 467 00:24:06,680 --> 00:24:09,550 indicators maybe to consider or to look, look for. 468 00:24:09,610 --> 00:24:13,990 So persistent full speed across all projects, all relationships, 469 00:24:14,000 --> 00:24:16,180 all the time. So when you don't differentiate 470 00:24:16,190 --> 00:24:20,970 your speed between contexts that require urgency in context that 471 00:24:20,980 --> 00:24:24,610 require something else like full presence and no doing, that's a 472 00:24:24,620 --> 00:24:26,550 sign. Another sign would be that you 473 00:24:26,560 --> 00:24:29,050 have a sense that something should be faster. 474 00:24:29,060 --> 00:24:32,950 So discomfort or anxiety when not performing at higher and 475 00:24:32,960 --> 00:24:37,190 higher speed levels, as if the pace itself is the goal. 476 00:24:37,260 --> 00:24:40,030 So here's a clear example. When your work slows down, do 477 00:24:40,040 --> 00:24:42,990 you panic as most lawyers I know do, or do you see the 478 00:24:43,000 --> 00:24:46,300 opportunity and the slower pace? Another example would be what 479 00:24:46,310 --> 00:24:48,190 you think about other people who go slower. 480 00:24:48,240 --> 00:24:52,850 So if slowness and others reads to you as laziness, 481 00:24:52,920 --> 00:24:56,790 incompetence, lack of seriousness, or some other 482 00:24:56,800 --> 00:25:00,090 negative quality, that is really useful information about the 483 00:25:00,100 --> 00:25:02,570 internal belief system guiding your career in life. 484 00:25:02,580 --> 00:25:05,820 OK, so those are the signs to look for and what would be one 485 00:25:05,830 --> 00:25:08,020 small shift or one small thing you could do this week? 486 00:25:08,030 --> 00:25:11,700 First and foremost, noticed notice before any behavioral 487 00:25:11,710 --> 00:25:14,760 change, you have to start noticing or tracking the speed 488 00:25:14,810 --> 00:25:16,900 at which you're operating in different contexts. 489 00:25:16,910 --> 00:25:19,470 So what is your speed when you're interacting with a 490 00:25:19,480 --> 00:25:22,540 potential client or when you're researching or writing or doing 491 00:25:22,550 --> 00:25:25,380 admin or responding to a client communication? 492 00:25:25,390 --> 00:25:28,950 Also notice your speed when you are talking to a child, talking 493 00:25:28,960 --> 00:25:32,100 to your best friend or life partner, when you are eating or 494 00:25:32,110 --> 00:25:37,770 walking or doing your morning routine or your bedtime routine. 495 00:25:37,820 --> 00:25:40,130 So it's just noticing how am I showing up? 496 00:25:40,140 --> 00:25:43,000 What's my pace or S my speed and and different and different 497 00:25:43,010 --> 00:25:46,290 circumstances or context. And then then ask yourself in 498 00:25:46,300 --> 00:25:49,710 just one place, where could I go 1 speed slower this week? 499 00:25:49,720 --> 00:25:53,350 Not everywhere, just one place. Pick it and try to go slower 500 00:25:53,360 --> 00:25:55,190 deliberately. That's incredible. 501 00:25:55,260 --> 00:25:58,910 I'm thinking here, you know, in the context of AI and really 502 00:25:58,920 --> 00:26:02,530 just speed in general. I feel like there's, there's 503 00:26:02,540 --> 00:26:06,060 this point here that that maybe we haven't had the chance to, to 504 00:26:06,070 --> 00:26:10,030 discuss more, you know, deeply. But there's also a point about, 505 00:26:10,040 --> 00:26:13,810 you know, developing that intuition, maybe a gut feeling 506 00:26:13,820 --> 00:26:16,810 for, for how some people like to talk about it. 507 00:26:16,890 --> 00:26:20,750 But since you've, you know, branded yourself, your program, 508 00:26:20,760 --> 00:26:23,980 your company as the inner advocate, I want to hear about, 509 00:26:23,990 --> 00:26:26,480 you know, the the lawyers inner voice. 510 00:26:26,490 --> 00:26:30,440 What happens when those lawyers learn or relearn to listen to 511 00:26:30,450 --> 00:26:34,360 their inner voice when they put into practice this, you know, 512 00:26:34,530 --> 00:26:38,820 awareness of being too quick and then being finally able to use 513 00:26:38,830 --> 00:26:40,710 speed as a tool. What are some of the changes 514 00:26:40,720 --> 00:26:44,820 you've noticed in in clients or maybe even in yourself as you've 515 00:26:44,830 --> 00:26:50,240 become more aware of it? It's what it gives all of us as 516 00:26:50,250 --> 00:26:54,260 lawyers, but also anyone. It's just a a fuller picture 517 00:26:54,270 --> 00:26:58,030 about us as as people in the world and and the other people 518 00:26:58,040 --> 00:27:01,680 we interact with versus just the technical legal legal stuff. 519 00:27:01,690 --> 00:27:04,520 Maybe there's some unease about a deal structure and listening 520 00:27:04,530 --> 00:27:07,440 to that a felt since about a particular witness that the 521 00:27:07,450 --> 00:27:10,140 moment in negotiation has turned, even though nothing 522 00:27:10,150 --> 00:27:13,710 explicits been said or or noticing when your body needs 523 00:27:13,720 --> 00:27:16,570 medical support. Lawyers who stay connected to 524 00:27:16,580 --> 00:27:22,630 these signals develop better judgment over time in in all of 525 00:27:22,640 --> 00:27:24,850 the human ways. They know when to push and when 526 00:27:24,860 --> 00:27:26,630 to wait. They can read what's underneath 527 00:27:26,640 --> 00:27:29,310 what is being said. They can feel when the room has 528 00:27:29,320 --> 00:27:32,090 shifted in real time. They can rest and recover their 529 00:27:32,100 --> 00:27:35,790 bodies and minds to continue with the work as opposed to as 530 00:27:35,800 --> 00:27:37,760 we know, burnout is a possibility. 531 00:27:37,820 --> 00:27:41,250 So while the intellectual mind likes to jump ahead to plan and 532 00:27:41,260 --> 00:27:45,220 count and analyze and know and solve speed feels competent 533 00:27:45,270 --> 00:27:48,300 intuition in our bodies. As I've said a couple of times 534 00:27:48,310 --> 00:27:51,030 already, they just operated on different timetable and you can 535 00:27:51,040 --> 00:27:54,410 access these other intelligent parts of ourselves and it's not 536 00:27:54,420 --> 00:27:56,770 mystical and practical. Sometimes I get that this is 537 00:27:56,780 --> 00:27:58,590 this is woo woo stuff. It's really not. 538 00:27:58,640 --> 00:28:02,080 It's already there. These parts of us are there and 539 00:28:02,090 --> 00:28:04,020 they're just kind of waiting to be listened to. 540 00:28:04,030 --> 00:28:06,150 And if they're not listening to, you can't access them. 541 00:28:06,440 --> 00:28:09,770 So in working with me, lawyers often rediscover these other, 542 00:28:09,780 --> 00:28:13,030 let's say, intelligences quite quickly, and it's just a matter 543 00:28:13,040 --> 00:28:15,190 of of slowing. Down I really appreciate that. 544 00:28:15,200 --> 00:28:19,550 I when, when we talked and I thought about you lawyers who 545 00:28:19,560 --> 00:28:22,980 take the time or at least that they're able to show you that 546 00:28:22,990 --> 00:28:25,910 they're, you know, present that they're thinking you 547 00:28:25,920 --> 00:28:28,530 automatically have some additional respect. 548 00:28:28,540 --> 00:28:33,230 They just look extra wise and I think that just might be the 549 00:28:33,240 --> 00:28:36,570 very case. So I, I just found that amazing 550 00:28:36,860 --> 00:28:38,460 to hear and to discuss it with you. 551 00:28:38,530 --> 00:28:40,530 Today's report, today's episodes. 552 00:28:40,740 --> 00:28:43,810 I wanted to ask you, you know, if you were to redesign the our, 553 00:28:43,820 --> 00:28:46,550 our legal culture, how we interact, how we work, 554 00:28:46,560 --> 00:28:49,720 especially thinking about, you know, this next generation, what 555 00:28:49,730 --> 00:28:52,470 would you preserve about speed and what would you? 556 00:28:52,480 --> 00:28:54,500 Change Before answering that question, I just want to 557 00:28:54,510 --> 00:28:57,070 acknowledge what you said because it does feel that way 558 00:28:57,080 --> 00:29:00,440 when somebody is really deeply listening to us, that they feel 559 00:29:00,450 --> 00:29:03,670 wiser. And I have experienced that in 560 00:29:03,680 --> 00:29:05,690 you in this call. And I just want to acknowledge 561 00:29:05,700 --> 00:29:07,870 you for that because you've been really listening to what I said 562 00:29:09,280 --> 00:29:12,280 and integrating that into the conversation and to, to feel 563 00:29:12,290 --> 00:29:15,270 heard like that is not something that everybody's capable of 564 00:29:15,280 --> 00:29:16,630 doing. So just to acknowledge you for 565 00:29:16,640 --> 00:29:19,540 that and the listeners out there, when you listen deeply to 566 00:29:19,550 --> 00:29:22,120 somebody else, that is a kind of slowing down, right? 567 00:29:22,130 --> 00:29:25,050 Because a lot of us think in our heads through the thing we're 568 00:29:25,060 --> 00:29:28,830 going to say next as opposed to the person in front of us and 569 00:29:28,840 --> 00:29:30,880 what they're actually sharing. So I just wanted to acknowledge 570 00:29:30,890 --> 00:29:33,450 that before going to your very awesome question. 571 00:29:33,460 --> 00:29:36,810 I just want to say I love this the next generation and, and 572 00:29:36,820 --> 00:29:42,670 what to what to preserve and, and what to change, because I 573 00:29:42,680 --> 00:29:45,530 know that we're at at a, a kind of turning point in the 574 00:29:45,540 --> 00:29:48,250 profession and in the world and a lot of different ways. 575 00:29:48,260 --> 00:29:51,810 And, and I want to underline that what I've said here about 576 00:29:51,820 --> 00:29:54,790 speed is the speed does have value. 577 00:29:54,840 --> 00:29:57,810 So the whole conversation here about pace and pressure and 578 00:29:57,820 --> 00:30:01,270 speed, it's not about deeming, demonizing those things because 579 00:30:01,280 --> 00:30:04,330 sometimes they're necessary. It's just about restoring them 580 00:30:04,340 --> 00:30:07,770 to their proper place as a tool. There are times when we need to 581 00:30:07,780 --> 00:30:11,190 access our capacity for precision under pressure, when a 582 00:30:11,200 --> 00:30:14,270 client needs something fast, a well reasoned answer, high stake 583 00:30:14,280 --> 00:30:17,050 situation. It's a real skill that needs to 584 00:30:17,060 --> 00:30:19,790 be deployed. What I, what I hope will change 585 00:30:19,860 --> 00:30:22,770 and why I wanted to have this conversation with you, Claudio, 586 00:30:22,780 --> 00:30:26,730 and for other people to hear is, is to change that speed is, is 587 00:30:26,740 --> 00:30:28,900 our identity. It's who we who we are. 588 00:30:28,910 --> 00:30:31,210 It's our default. It's the proof of confidence and 589 00:30:31,260 --> 00:30:34,150 confidence and competence. It's the thing that runs 590 00:30:34,160 --> 00:30:37,040 automatically regardless of whatever else is going on. 591 00:30:37,100 --> 00:30:40,170 I would just change that. Conflating speed with competence 592 00:30:40,360 --> 00:30:43,270 and outcomes and value are what matter. 593 00:30:43,280 --> 00:30:46,400 Speed is 1 tool to get there when it's needed, but it's not 594 00:30:46,410 --> 00:30:48,230 the only tool. And the question for the next 595 00:30:48,240 --> 00:30:52,510 generation of lawyers, I think is not how fast can you go? 596 00:30:52,560 --> 00:30:56,350 It is do you know what speed this moment requires? 597 00:30:56,360 --> 00:31:00,030 And can you choose it consciously together with what 598 00:31:00,040 --> 00:31:01,300 else is? Important, amazing. 599 00:31:01,310 --> 00:31:04,330 Thank you so much for making the time to come in the podcast, 600 00:31:04,390 --> 00:31:07,770 share these thoughts and I'm looking forward to to welcoming 601 00:31:07,780 --> 00:31:10,240 more of these conversations. The end of the show really 602 00:31:10,250 --> 00:31:12,180 appreciated Laura. Thank you, Claudio. 603 00:31:12,190 --> 00:31:13,480 Just stop recording here.