1 00:00:12,880 --> 00:00:14,870 Welcome to Studying Law Around the World. 2 00:00:15,020 --> 00:00:17,870 I'm Claudio Claus. In each episode, I talk with 3 00:00:17,880 --> 00:00:20,850 lawyers, law students, and professors from different parts 4 00:00:20,860 --> 00:00:24,730 of the world to talk about legal education, careers, and what the 5 00:00:24,740 --> 00:00:26,410 profession looks like in real life. 6 00:00:26,420 --> 00:00:29,470 We talk about the hard parts, the surprises, and the decisions 7 00:00:29,480 --> 00:00:32,270 that shaped their paths. Whether you're planning to study 8 00:00:32,280 --> 00:00:35,520 abroad, thinking about working in another legal system, or just 9 00:00:35,530 --> 00:00:39,630 curious about how law works around the world, this podcast 10 00:00:39,640 --> 00:00:44,140 is for you. This evening I have the 11 00:00:44,150 --> 00:00:46,100 opportunity to host Bianca Thomas. 12 00:00:46,190 --> 00:00:50,880 She has an incredible career. She is currently senior counsel 13 00:00:50,930 --> 00:00:53,860 in the technology and operations area at BMO. 14 00:00:53,910 --> 00:00:57,300 She has had so many incredible roles, you know, all the way 15 00:00:57,310 --> 00:01:02,910 from supporting Shopify's financial solution to supporting 16 00:01:02,920 --> 00:01:05,280 the precious and base metal businesses of BMO. 17 00:01:05,349 --> 00:01:10,040 She has gained litigation experience as well as A at a 18 00:01:10,350 --> 00:01:13,400 boutique litigation firm. Thank you so much for taking the 19 00:01:13,410 --> 00:01:15,580 time to be here. Tonight, Thank you so much 20 00:01:15,590 --> 00:01:17,700 Claudio, for having me. It's a pleasure. 21 00:01:19,240 --> 00:01:21,940 Start off our podcast. Even though I said very little 22 00:01:21,950 --> 00:01:25,280 about you, I'd I'd love for you to introduce yourself into our 23 00:01:25,290 --> 00:01:27,800 listeners about who you are and what you do. 24 00:01:27,810 --> 00:01:30,940 Today, Absolutely. Well, before we dive in, I'll 25 00:01:30,950 --> 00:01:34,310 just say that my comments are my own and not the views of my 26 00:01:34,320 --> 00:01:36,900 employer. And as you mentioned, I'm 27 00:01:36,910 --> 00:01:40,180 currently a Senior counsel at BMO in a role supporting 28 00:01:40,190 --> 00:01:43,720 technology and operations. I actually just transitioned 29 00:01:43,730 --> 00:01:47,220 into this role within the last month and I'm working on a few 30 00:01:47,230 --> 00:01:50,660 different buckets of work, Technology and procurement 31 00:01:50,670 --> 00:01:54,760 agreements being one and marketing and social media being 32 00:01:54,770 --> 00:01:58,060 the other. And before that I LED our 33 00:01:58,070 --> 00:02:01,480 external counsel program and have the opportunity to manage a 34 00:02:01,490 --> 00:02:05,640 team of legal operations professionals and earlier worked 35 00:02:05,650 --> 00:02:09,160 in a transactional role in capital markets legal at BMO, 36 00:02:09,630 --> 00:02:12,980 primarily supporting the precious and base metals 37 00:02:12,990 --> 00:02:16,820 businesses as well as equity derivatives and other 38 00:02:16,830 --> 00:02:20,580 derivatives transactions. And you also mentioned I have 39 00:02:20,590 --> 00:02:23,920 worked in financial services partnerships at Shopify and I 40 00:02:23,930 --> 00:02:27,820 actually started my career as a litigator in private practice at 41 00:02:27,830 --> 00:02:31,530 a few boutique law firms first and commercial litigation and 42 00:02:31,540 --> 00:02:34,140 then later in insurance and professional negligence. 43 00:02:34,190 --> 00:02:38,360 So I've I've gained experience in a couple of diverse areas and 44 00:02:38,370 --> 00:02:41,170 and tried to build on all of those experiences. 45 00:02:42,670 --> 00:02:45,690 Thank you for sharing that. Since you tapped on that on that 46 00:02:45,700 --> 00:02:48,670 point of beginning your occurring litigation and then 47 00:02:48,680 --> 00:02:52,210 later moving on to Rose in house and I guess in a way 48 00:02:52,220 --> 00:02:54,210 transactional work. I'd love to hear a little bit 49 00:02:54,220 --> 00:02:57,670 more about that transition and maybe even how did that early 50 00:02:57,680 --> 00:03:00,430 litigation experience has shaped the lawyer you. 51 00:03:00,440 --> 00:03:03,670 Are now, they're really good questions and I love this 52 00:03:03,680 --> 00:03:08,050 question because I meet with younger lawyers and law students 53 00:03:08,060 --> 00:03:11,910 frequently and many of them are looking for career advice or 54 00:03:11,920 --> 00:03:14,930 looking to network. And I find some of them are also 55 00:03:14,940 --> 00:03:17,960 looking to transition across practice areas, whether it's 56 00:03:17,970 --> 00:03:20,950 corporate to litigation, litigation to corporate or 57 00:03:20,960 --> 00:03:24,130 whatever the case may be. And so this question does come 58 00:03:24,140 --> 00:03:27,640 up pretty often for me when I'm having those conversations. 59 00:03:27,710 --> 00:03:30,300 And So what I thought about making the switch from 60 00:03:30,310 --> 00:03:34,240 litigation to an in house transactional practice, on the 61 00:03:34,250 --> 00:03:37,000 face of it, of course, they're quite different in terms of the 62 00:03:37,010 --> 00:03:39,320 day-to-day substance of what you're doing. 63 00:03:39,370 --> 00:03:43,740 But I thought about the transferability of skills when 64 00:03:43,750 --> 00:03:46,620 moving in house. And in particular as a 65 00:03:46,630 --> 00:03:50,780 litigator, you really hone your oral and written communication 66 00:03:50,790 --> 00:03:53,380 skills. You're drafting skills have to 67 00:03:53,390 --> 00:03:56,960 be excellent and your negotiation skills consistently 68 00:03:57,010 --> 00:04:00,200 are honed with the latter being particularly relevant for 69 00:04:00,210 --> 00:04:03,640 transactions because when you think about it and step back and 70 00:04:03,650 --> 00:04:06,190 litigation, it's an adversarial process. 71 00:04:06,200 --> 00:04:08,620 You usually have a winner and a loser. 72 00:04:08,710 --> 00:04:12,030 And in many cases you're settling, not many cases go to 73 00:04:12,040 --> 00:04:15,410 trial, especially in Toronto, because of how expensive it is 74 00:04:15,420 --> 00:04:18,010 to go to trial and how time consuming it can be. 75 00:04:18,019 --> 00:04:22,220 So clients are often looking for more cost effective, timely ways 76 00:04:22,230 --> 00:04:24,850 to resolve their disputes. Compare that to when you're 77 00:04:24,860 --> 00:04:27,870 working on a deal and in a transaction setting, it's 78 00:04:27,880 --> 00:04:30,630 generally more of a collaborative process as 79 00:04:30,640 --> 00:04:34,730 ultimately both sides want to see the deal get completed, but 80 00:04:34,740 --> 00:04:37,650 they're each looking for terms that are preferable to that. 81 00:04:37,720 --> 00:04:41,300 And so the negotiation skills you develop as a litigator are 82 00:04:41,310 --> 00:04:43,620 really useful in a transactional practice. 83 00:04:43,630 --> 00:04:46,370 So I really found that when I first made the switch. 84 00:04:46,440 --> 00:04:49,550 And then I spent a lot of time thinking about this, how did 85 00:04:49,560 --> 00:04:54,540 those early years shape me now? And I really think that the on 86 00:04:54,550 --> 00:04:58,940 your feet experience that you get in court shaped me to really 87 00:04:58,950 --> 00:05:02,660 think quickly on my feet. I remember both an articling and 88 00:05:02,670 --> 00:05:06,240 then the first four years of practice going to court 89 00:05:06,250 --> 00:05:08,500 consistently. Because the great thing about 90 00:05:08,510 --> 00:05:11,780 working at boutiques when you're in litigation is that you're, 91 00:05:11,870 --> 00:05:15,460 you're constantly in court. And in addition to that, I think 92 00:05:15,470 --> 00:05:19,420 it really helped with staying calm under pressure and 93 00:05:19,430 --> 00:05:22,500 organizing facts into clear recommendations. 94 00:05:22,510 --> 00:05:25,840 I think it really helps frame the way you think and organize 95 00:05:25,850 --> 00:05:28,180 things. And so it's definitely a good 96 00:05:28,190 --> 00:05:31,600 base to have and and use those skills in different ways. 97 00:05:31,700 --> 00:05:34,160 So that's amazing. Thank you for sharing that 98 00:05:34,310 --> 00:05:38,600 considering the this background you gave us right now, I also 99 00:05:38,610 --> 00:05:42,560 see that you worked with a very interesting variety of work 100 00:05:42,610 --> 00:05:44,960 inside the transactional part out. 101 00:05:45,030 --> 00:05:48,400 So after the litigation, I guess in a way, we we put lawyers in 102 00:05:48,410 --> 00:05:51,560 two big boxes, right in action work. 103 00:05:51,610 --> 00:05:54,800 But you've worked across capital markets, Seattle S technology 104 00:05:54,810 --> 00:05:57,060 and operations. So I'm also curious, you know, 105 00:05:57,070 --> 00:06:00,790 especially considering our audience and and considering 106 00:06:00,800 --> 00:06:04,140 that most of us listening here are young lawyers or early 107 00:06:04,150 --> 00:06:06,490 career professionals. Sometimes it's hard to think 108 00:06:06,500 --> 00:06:09,420 about how do you build the confidence to move across, you 109 00:06:09,430 --> 00:06:12,860 know, different practice areas, even within transactional work. 110 00:06:12,870 --> 00:06:16,500 So I got a little bit about, you know, what motivated you and and 111 00:06:16,550 --> 00:06:18,300 how did you build the confidence to do that? 112 00:06:18,350 --> 00:06:22,700 Yeah, When I'm thinking about this, I think the biggest leap 113 00:06:22,710 --> 00:06:25,700 is, you know what we've been talking about the the switch 114 00:06:25,710 --> 00:06:28,860 from litigation to that transactional piece, because it 115 00:06:28,870 --> 00:06:31,290 was very different from what I was used to. 116 00:06:31,510 --> 00:06:35,240 And I think what made it doable, I think it was less about 117 00:06:35,290 --> 00:06:39,320 confidence, but I think it was really about the curiosity for 118 00:06:39,330 --> 00:06:43,740 learning and being excited about picking up a different area and 119 00:06:43,750 --> 00:06:47,880 expanding your skill set. Also, I really benefited from a 120 00:06:47,890 --> 00:06:51,980 fantastic manager and team who really supported me. 121 00:06:52,050 --> 00:06:56,600 And I find that if you approach things with a curiosity for 122 00:06:56,610 --> 00:06:59,940 learning and asking questions and trying to keep yourself 123 00:06:59,950 --> 00:07:04,320 engaged, that really helps support your growth and picking 124 00:07:04,330 --> 00:07:06,150 up some of these different areas. 125 00:07:06,160 --> 00:07:10,080 And so I think a genuine interest and desire to learn is 126 00:07:10,090 --> 00:07:11,900 is really helpful. That's amazing. 127 00:07:11,910 --> 00:07:15,540 Thank you for sharing that in in your roles, both at demo 128 00:07:15,550 --> 00:07:19,480 Shopify, you worked very closely with business teams from my 129 00:07:19,490 --> 00:07:21,740 understanding. So I wanted to ask you a little 130 00:07:21,750 --> 00:07:24,560 bit about that. It's it's been very fascinating 131 00:07:24,570 --> 00:07:27,500 to interviewing house lawyers. It has a little more about, you 132 00:07:27,510 --> 00:07:30,710 know, what does it mean to be a strong business partner? 133 00:07:30,750 --> 00:07:33,160 What does that mean? You know, for your practice as 134 00:07:33,170 --> 00:07:36,180 an in house lawyer? That's a, that's a good question 135 00:07:36,190 --> 00:07:38,900 as well. And so I think when you're 136 00:07:38,910 --> 00:07:42,460 thinking about private practice lawyers and in-house lawyers and 137 00:07:42,470 --> 00:07:45,500 how they can differ when you're in private practices, you know, 138 00:07:45,510 --> 00:07:48,170 you can have so many clients, but when you're in house at an 139 00:07:48,180 --> 00:07:52,770 organization, you have one client really, and you get to 140 00:07:52,780 --> 00:07:58,020 know so well the organization, it's risk appetite, it's goals 141 00:07:58,030 --> 00:08:01,130 and ambitions and everything that it's looking to achieve. 142 00:08:01,140 --> 00:08:03,810 And so you really get that in depth understanding. 143 00:08:03,820 --> 00:08:07,240 And so for me, when thinking about how to be a strong 144 00:08:07,250 --> 00:08:10,190 business partner, what I've tried to do, part of it is 145 00:08:10,200 --> 00:08:13,610 really about understanding the business context, what the team 146 00:08:13,620 --> 00:08:17,070 is trying to achieve, how their products work, what the 147 00:08:17,080 --> 00:08:20,870 organization risk appetite is. So your advice is actually 148 00:08:20,880 --> 00:08:25,290 usable to them instead of perhaps a summary of regulations 149 00:08:25,300 --> 00:08:27,590 or statutes. That's one of the things I love 150 00:08:27,600 --> 00:08:32,000 about being in house that places like FEMO is you're close enough 151 00:08:32,010 --> 00:08:35,760 to the business and the work to give advice that fits their 152 00:08:35,770 --> 00:08:39,000 strategy and not just the law and the abstract. 153 00:08:39,010 --> 00:08:41,940 And you're really thinking about what they're trying to do and 154 00:08:41,950 --> 00:08:45,260 whether you can do it. And so I think in practice, it 155 00:08:45,270 --> 00:08:47,220 starts with practicality as well. 156 00:08:47,230 --> 00:08:49,800 You don't need a long memo. Business people want the 157 00:08:49,810 --> 00:08:52,340 headline. Here's the issue, here are your 158 00:08:52,350 --> 00:08:55,760 options, here's the risk trade off, and here's what I 159 00:08:55,770 --> 00:08:58,400 recommend. So you're still informing them 160 00:08:58,410 --> 00:09:01,740 they know everything that they should know, but you're also 161 00:09:01,750 --> 00:09:06,260 being efficient with everyone's time and practical. 162 00:09:06,310 --> 00:09:10,210 I also really think an important piece is investing in the 163 00:09:10,220 --> 00:09:14,120 relationship with the business, learning how they like to 164 00:09:14,130 --> 00:09:17,140 communicate. Some folks, for example, they 165 00:09:17,150 --> 00:09:20,480 like if you just pick up the call and on an impromptu basis 166 00:09:20,490 --> 00:09:22,930 and shoot them your questions quickly. 167 00:09:22,990 --> 00:09:27,230 Others like video calls scheduled, others like chats on 168 00:09:27,240 --> 00:09:29,480 Teams. And so getting to know those 169 00:09:29,490 --> 00:09:33,760 people, being responsive and showing that you genuinely want 170 00:09:33,770 --> 00:09:38,010 their work to succeed, I think helps build that trust with 171 00:09:38,020 --> 00:09:41,330 those business folks. And so then when you have issues 172 00:09:41,340 --> 00:09:44,780 that come up that are complicated, like regulatory 173 00:09:44,790 --> 00:09:47,840 issues where perhaps they're there's challenges to doing what 174 00:09:47,850 --> 00:09:50,500 the business is looking to do, having that trust and 175 00:09:50,510 --> 00:09:53,100 relationship in place really matters. 176 00:09:53,110 --> 00:09:56,070 Because if you've built that credibility with them and you 177 00:09:56,080 --> 00:10:00,510 can come with that lens of how can we try to do this mindset 178 00:10:00,520 --> 00:10:04,030 instead of essentially being the department of no, which I think 179 00:10:04,040 --> 00:10:07,750 legal sometimes is branded with. Ultimately, in some cases they 180 00:10:07,760 --> 00:10:11,450 may not love the answer, but they'll understand and respect 181 00:10:11,460 --> 00:10:14,890 the advice and continue to engage with you. 182 00:10:14,940 --> 00:10:16,690 Amazing. Thank you for sharing those. 183 00:10:17,080 --> 00:10:20,370 I'm also curious here. I know you've developed a really 184 00:10:20,380 --> 00:10:23,550 big network, you know, with, with the OVA, with the 185 00:10:23,600 --> 00:10:26,930 incredible career you've built. But I'm also very interested 186 00:10:26,940 --> 00:10:30,470 about your experience leading the Bmo's external counsel 187 00:10:30,480 --> 00:10:32,890 program that I'd love to hear a little more about. 188 00:10:32,900 --> 00:10:35,150 You know what that role taught. You. 189 00:10:35,760 --> 00:10:38,710 So I learned so much in that role. 190 00:10:38,820 --> 00:10:42,850 Leading that program also involved managing a team of 6 191 00:10:42,860 --> 00:10:47,560 legal operations professionals. And coming from my experience, 192 00:10:47,570 --> 00:10:51,270 which was just in legal practice moving to that role, that role 193 00:10:51,280 --> 00:10:53,810 is really so focused on operations. 194 00:10:53,820 --> 00:10:58,430 It was fascinating to see all of the work that happens behind the 195 00:10:58,440 --> 00:11:00,470 scenes for a program like that to run. 196 00:11:00,480 --> 00:11:04,210 And so I remember when I was on the other side of it, years 197 00:11:04,220 --> 00:11:07,730 passed as a lawyer in Capital Markets Legal, My only 198 00:11:07,740 --> 00:11:11,890 interaction with our external council program team was when I 199 00:11:11,900 --> 00:11:15,090 had billing questions on matters with external counsel. 200 00:11:15,160 --> 00:11:19,870 And so I really thought that was the main extent of what that 201 00:11:19,880 --> 00:11:25,720 team covered and worked on. And boy was I wrong when when I 202 00:11:25,730 --> 00:11:28,600 joined a couple of years ago into that role. 203 00:11:28,610 --> 00:11:30,840 That's really just scratching the surface. 204 00:11:30,890 --> 00:11:35,180 They do so much more than that, both on a day-to-day basis in 205 00:11:35,190 --> 00:11:39,560 terms of process and governance from a supplier risk management 206 00:11:39,570 --> 00:11:42,740 perspective, but also on a broader scale when thinking 207 00:11:42,750 --> 00:11:46,260 about technical projects and strategic projects and 208 00:11:46,270 --> 00:11:49,520 relationship management. Honestly, it was a really great 209 00:11:49,530 --> 00:11:54,180 experience and I think those operational skills are a great 210 00:11:54,190 --> 00:11:56,610 skill set and experience to obtain. 211 00:11:56,670 --> 00:12:01,320 I think the other thing for me that it really confirmed was 212 00:12:01,390 --> 00:12:04,560 that I really enjoyed the people management piece. 213 00:12:04,630 --> 00:12:10,070 I think it is a big privilege to be able to support someone's 214 00:12:10,080 --> 00:12:14,130 growth and I took that responsibility seriously with 215 00:12:14,140 --> 00:12:17,820 coaching and setting clear goals for the team and really trying 216 00:12:17,830 --> 00:12:20,810 to create an environment where the team could do their best 217 00:12:20,820 --> 00:12:22,890 work. And I really do appreciate the 218 00:12:22,900 --> 00:12:25,510 bank giving me that opportunity because it was great. 219 00:12:25,520 --> 00:12:27,970 That's amazing. I didn't know the extent that 220 00:12:28,040 --> 00:12:30,090 legal operations would be involved in all of that. 221 00:12:30,100 --> 00:12:34,940 So that was quite nice speaking about, you know, your career and 222 00:12:34,950 --> 00:12:36,800 and all that you've done. I also saw that you were 223 00:12:36,810 --> 00:12:39,400 recognized as a Lexpert Rising star. 224 00:12:39,450 --> 00:12:42,520 So looking back, I'd love to hear a little bit about what 225 00:12:42,530 --> 00:12:46,200 habits or decisions did you think that make the biggest 226 00:12:46,210 --> 00:12:48,160 difference in your career? Growth. 227 00:12:48,210 --> 00:12:53,060 Well, first I would say I was genuinely humbled by that 228 00:12:53,070 --> 00:12:56,200 recognition. And I think nothing like that 229 00:12:56,210 --> 00:13:00,400 really happens in a vacuum. I, I was really lucky to have 230 00:13:00,410 --> 00:13:04,480 fantastic managers and mentors and people who trusted me to 231 00:13:04,490 --> 00:13:07,360 work on really meaningful, interesting work. 232 00:13:07,430 --> 00:13:10,820 And in, in looking back and thinking about habits that have 233 00:13:10,830 --> 00:13:13,780 maybe just made a difference in my career so far. 234 00:13:13,870 --> 00:13:16,920 I think there were a few, One of them we've touched on a bit and 235 00:13:16,930 --> 00:13:20,920 is that staying genuinely curious in terms of learning. 236 00:13:20,970 --> 00:13:25,080 But I think it's also being willing to step into new areas 237 00:13:25,090 --> 00:13:29,660 and say yes to opportunities. Saying yes to things I think is, 238 00:13:29,710 --> 00:13:33,690 is great to do because it gives you skills and experiences that 239 00:13:33,700 --> 00:13:38,660 you may not have otherwise had. And I think another is being 240 00:13:38,670 --> 00:13:41,820 focused on building trust within the organization, being 241 00:13:41,830 --> 00:13:46,580 responsive, clear, so both business partners, but not just 242 00:13:46,590 --> 00:13:50,100 also stakeholders within legal and other stakeholders that you 243 00:13:50,110 --> 00:13:53,440 work with feel like you're helping to move things forward 244 00:13:53,450 --> 00:13:55,340 and that you're a reliable partner. 245 00:13:55,450 --> 00:13:58,880 And then I think community involvement has also been a big 246 00:13:58,890 --> 00:14:02,330 part of my career as well through the Oba and now the 247 00:14:02,340 --> 00:14:04,450 Schleifer Clinic. I found that to be very 248 00:14:04,460 --> 00:14:08,170 meaningful because it's allowed me to build leadership skills 249 00:14:08,180 --> 00:14:11,650 throughout the years, and it's also connected me to various 250 00:14:11,660 --> 00:14:15,150 people who shape how I think about the profession, which has 251 00:14:15,160 --> 00:14:17,950 been fantastic experience. Amazing. 252 00:14:17,960 --> 00:14:20,830 And just to get right into that, you just mentioned the OA or 253 00:14:20,840 --> 00:14:23,260 your community work. I wouldn't you ask you a little 254 00:14:23,270 --> 00:14:25,210 more about that. You did you start getting 255 00:14:25,220 --> 00:14:28,130 involved as soon as you were in law school where there are a few 256 00:14:28,140 --> 00:14:31,350 friends that introduced you to the organization and even like 257 00:14:31,360 --> 00:14:34,830 how has given back shaped your career and and maybe even your 258 00:14:34,880 --> 00:14:40,060 sense of purpose as a lawyer? So I would say since high 259 00:14:40,070 --> 00:14:44,020 school, I've been involved in various initiatives and I've 260 00:14:44,030 --> 00:14:47,000 always found community engagement and giving back to be 261 00:14:47,010 --> 00:14:49,560 something that's really important and help me stay 262 00:14:49,570 --> 00:14:52,880 connected to purpose. But I think really for me, it 263 00:14:52,890 --> 00:14:57,340 started when I was a second year lawyer to be more sustained. 264 00:14:57,450 --> 00:15:00,930 I've really tried to align myself with causes and 265 00:15:00,940 --> 00:15:03,520 organizations that I'm really passionate about, that I'm 266 00:15:03,530 --> 00:15:06,910 interested in, that align with my values, especially women's 267 00:15:06,920 --> 00:15:09,580 initiatives, if you can, if you can tell from what I've been 268 00:15:09,590 --> 00:15:12,580 involved in so far. So I started as a second year 269 00:15:12,590 --> 00:15:16,560 lawyer joining the OB, a women lawyers forum executive. 270 00:15:16,610 --> 00:15:19,920 Someone had asked if I was interested in running for the 271 00:15:19,930 --> 00:15:23,930 executive and I think I started as the public affairs liaison 272 00:15:24,480 --> 00:15:28,050 and I stayed on that executive for five years, ultimately 273 00:15:28,060 --> 00:15:32,490 chairing it in 2019 and that just lit a fire within me. 274 00:15:32,500 --> 00:15:37,170 It was such a wonderful group of women with shared values and the 275 00:15:37,180 --> 00:15:41,650 executive was really there to support the sections goals of 276 00:15:41,660 --> 00:15:45,030 promoting the advancement of women influence and their 277 00:15:45,040 --> 00:15:49,530 success in the legal profession through various things like CPD 278 00:15:49,540 --> 00:15:54,430 did it, advocacy events and it was it was fantastic. 279 00:15:54,440 --> 00:15:57,570 Following that experience, I really wanted to continue the 280 00:15:57,580 --> 00:16:01,720 momentum and add the great opportunity to get involved with 281 00:16:01,730 --> 00:16:06,690 the Schleifer Clinic, starting out first with the fundraising 282 00:16:06,700 --> 00:16:10,420 committee and then ultimately acting as a board member the 283 00:16:10,430 --> 00:16:13,050 last couple of years. And Claudio, I'm not sure if you 284 00:16:13,060 --> 00:16:16,530 know the story of the the Schleifer Clinic, but I'd love 285 00:16:16,540 --> 00:16:18,730 to share with your listeners if they're not aware. 286 00:16:18,780 --> 00:16:21,070 Absolutely. So I, I know a little bit about 287 00:16:21,080 --> 00:16:25,650 the sad story of Slifer, but I don't know exactly how the 288 00:16:25,660 --> 00:16:27,700 clinic started. So if you could share that, that 289 00:16:27,710 --> 00:16:28,290 would be. Great. 290 00:16:28,340 --> 00:16:31,210 I would love to. As you mentioned, it really is a 291 00:16:31,220 --> 00:16:35,110 sad story. The clinic was founded in memory 292 00:16:35,120 --> 00:16:39,810 of Barbara Tina Schleifer, who was assaulted and murdered in 293 00:16:39,820 --> 00:16:44,070 1980 on her way home from a call to the bar ceremony. 294 00:16:44,180 --> 00:16:48,820 And out of that tragedy, five years after that, her friends in 295 00:16:48,830 --> 00:16:52,880 her classmates founded the clinic in her honor to do the 296 00:16:52,890 --> 00:16:56,340 kind of work that Barbara Schleifer was going to do had 297 00:16:56,350 --> 00:17:00,320 she survived. And this past year, we 298 00:17:00,330 --> 00:17:03,390 celebrated the 40th year of the clinic. 299 00:17:03,450 --> 00:17:09,020 And if you can believe it, since 1985, the clinic has supported 300 00:17:09,030 --> 00:17:13,130 over 150 thousand women and gender diverse survivors of 301 00:17:13,140 --> 00:17:17,359 violence through direct services and the kissy efforts, legal 302 00:17:17,369 --> 00:17:22,619 reform missions and programs. Honestly, I have felt immensely 303 00:17:22,630 --> 00:17:26,520 inspired by the staff and my fellow board members. 304 00:17:26,530 --> 00:17:28,220 I look forward to every board meeting. 305 00:17:28,230 --> 00:17:31,650 It's it's fantastic. The clinic does such meaningful 306 00:17:31,730 --> 00:17:34,350 an amazing work. So honestly, it's been a career 307 00:17:34,360 --> 00:17:37,950 highlight for me to be able to support them. 308 00:17:38,000 --> 00:17:41,390 And if I can share just a plug for the clinics upcoming event 309 00:17:41,400 --> 00:17:44,590 in case anyone is interested in learning more about the clinic, 310 00:17:44,640 --> 00:17:48,270 we have an event called She Matters coming up on Sunday, 311 00:17:48,280 --> 00:17:50,650 March 29th. It's really fun. 312 00:17:50,660 --> 00:17:54,710 It's a brunch event that we've held for the last few years and 313 00:17:54,720 --> 00:17:57,170 it supports the clinics fundraising. 314 00:17:57,240 --> 00:18:00,240 There's food. It's it's just a really fun 315 00:18:00,250 --> 00:18:02,910 time. And it's it's also great because 316 00:18:02,920 --> 00:18:05,790 it raises awareness and each year we're getting more and more 317 00:18:05,800 --> 00:18:08,330 people. And so I encourage anyone who's 318 00:18:08,340 --> 00:18:11,070 interested in learning more about the clinic or supporting 319 00:18:11,080 --> 00:18:14,560 to please get tickets online or feel free to reach out to me and 320 00:18:14,570 --> 00:18:16,320 I'll send you to the page for tickets. 321 00:18:16,330 --> 00:18:20,280 But it's a, it's a great time. And so I've really appreciated 322 00:18:20,330 --> 00:18:25,180 what being involved in some of these organizations can give. 323 00:18:25,270 --> 00:18:28,960 And I think you really get out of it what you put into it. 324 00:18:29,050 --> 00:18:32,000 And so it's been a really great experience for me. 325 00:18:32,010 --> 00:18:35,670 And I, if any lawyers that are younger or law students that are 326 00:18:35,680 --> 00:18:38,020 thinking about where should I get involved? 327 00:18:38,070 --> 00:18:41,280 I would honestly think about what are the areas you're really 328 00:18:41,290 --> 00:18:43,880 interested in because everyone's got something different. 329 00:18:43,890 --> 00:18:46,980 What are you passionate about? And then find an organization 330 00:18:46,990 --> 00:18:50,760 that caters to that because it'll just be so meaningful to 331 00:18:50,770 --> 00:18:55,500 you if you're genuinely really interested in in what you're 332 00:18:55,510 --> 00:18:58,180 spending your time on. I appreciate you taking the time 333 00:18:58,190 --> 00:19:00,710 to, to there a little bit of what the clinic does. 334 00:19:00,720 --> 00:19:03,670 And she raised awareness of, of the cause. 335 00:19:03,680 --> 00:19:06,870 I think it's a it's one that we definitely need to, to pay 336 00:19:06,880 --> 00:19:08,750 attention to. So I'm, I'm so happy that we 337 00:19:08,760 --> 00:19:12,010 have this, you know, a little bit of the influence that I can 338 00:19:12,020 --> 00:19:14,830 have that maybe more people will, will learn about it and, 339 00:19:14,840 --> 00:19:16,720 and hopefully, you know, being involved. 340 00:19:16,730 --> 00:19:19,570 So thank you for for sharing. That I really appreciate the 341 00:19:19,580 --> 00:19:22,510 opportunity to speak a bit about the clinic because they just do 342 00:19:22,520 --> 00:19:24,590 such fantastic. Work amazing. 343 00:19:24,660 --> 00:19:29,210 Well, to to finish our episode today, I wanted to ask if you 344 00:19:29,220 --> 00:19:33,440 were to give you your younger self a piece of advice or, you 345 00:19:33,450 --> 00:19:36,630 know, thinking about early career professionals nowadays. 346 00:19:36,640 --> 00:19:39,190 There's there's so much to be excited about. 347 00:19:39,200 --> 00:19:41,470 There's so much to be scared about. 348 00:19:41,540 --> 00:19:44,740 I often find it interesting that so many of the lawyers that came 349 00:19:44,750 --> 00:19:47,340 to the podcast, they mentioned something along the lines of, 350 00:19:47,410 --> 00:19:50,080 well, I I hear law students nowadays saying the market is 351 00:19:50,090 --> 00:19:52,240 really bad. There is this crisis going on 352 00:19:52,250 --> 00:19:55,280 with different factors, geopolitical, whatever it is, 353 00:19:55,390 --> 00:19:58,700 and it's funny because the year they graduated, there was 354 00:19:58,710 --> 00:20:00,520 something along those lines as well. 355 00:20:00,610 --> 00:20:03,330 So I found it very interesting that there is always, you know, 356 00:20:03,370 --> 00:20:05,520 something should be excited about something should be 357 00:20:05,530 --> 00:20:08,940 concerned about AI. I mean 1000 things. 358 00:20:09,010 --> 00:20:12,170 One is you ask you, you know, if you were to give a young lawyer, 359 00:20:12,180 --> 00:20:15,260 early cure professional, some kind of advice, what would you? 360 00:20:15,270 --> 00:20:18,540 What would you share? I think the one piece of advice 361 00:20:18,550 --> 00:20:23,250 I would give is never to let anyone tell you what you are 362 00:20:23,260 --> 00:20:25,820 capable of. And the reason I say that is 363 00:20:25,830 --> 00:20:29,800 because, as I mentioned, I often meet with law students or young 364 00:20:29,810 --> 00:20:32,860 lawyers who are either just starting out or looking to 365 00:20:32,870 --> 00:20:35,520 transition to a different area or they're looking to break into 366 00:20:35,530 --> 00:20:38,100 the Canadian legal market. Maybe if they're foreign trained 367 00:20:38,110 --> 00:20:40,700 lawyers and they're trying to get Canadian experience. 368 00:20:40,750 --> 00:20:44,260 And they'll share with me that they've met with a bunch of 369 00:20:44,270 --> 00:20:46,740 other lawyers for coffees or career advice. 370 00:20:46,750 --> 00:20:50,220 And a number of them will tell them that whatever they're 371 00:20:50,230 --> 00:20:54,040 looking to do, be it transition or get Canadian legal experience 372 00:20:54,090 --> 00:20:57,460 is just going to be very hard or not achievable. 373 00:20:57,470 --> 00:21:01,340 And you can see sometimes the look of demoralization on their 374 00:21:01,350 --> 00:21:04,420 face. And it, you know, for me, I feel 375 00:21:04,430 --> 00:21:08,880 really badly for, for folks because I think a 20 or 30 376 00:21:08,890 --> 00:21:13,350 minute coffee is not enough time at all to be able to tell what 377 00:21:13,360 --> 00:21:16,930 someone's going to be able to achieve what they're capable of. 378 00:21:16,980 --> 00:21:20,570 And honestly, I don't think any of these lawyers have bad 379 00:21:20,580 --> 00:21:23,610 intentions. I just think as sometimes as a 380 00:21:23,620 --> 00:21:27,230 byproduct of how we're trained to think as lawyers, we can have 381 00:21:27,240 --> 00:21:30,310 a more risk adverse approach and viewpoint. 382 00:21:30,360 --> 00:21:33,330 And then those beliefs come through when you're sharing 383 00:21:33,340 --> 00:21:35,450 advice with other people, it makes sense. 384 00:21:35,500 --> 00:21:39,320 But sometimes it leaves those folks that are looking for this 385 00:21:39,330 --> 00:21:42,470 advice eagerly feeling like they won't be able to achieve their 386 00:21:42,480 --> 00:21:44,990 goals or it'll take a very long time. 387 00:21:45,000 --> 00:21:48,110 And so if there's something that people take away from my 388 00:21:48,120 --> 00:21:52,490 comments, I really hope it's that you believe in yourself. 389 00:21:52,540 --> 00:21:56,140 You know, don't let anyone tell you what you're capable of. 390 00:21:56,270 --> 00:22:00,840 And you're a much better judge of that piece of, of information 391 00:22:00,890 --> 00:22:04,760 to not doubt yourself. The power of persistence is 392 00:22:04,770 --> 00:22:06,930 there. Believe in yourself and don't 393 00:22:06,940 --> 00:22:10,285 let other people discourage you. That's the, that's the main take 394 00:22:10,285 --> 00:22:11,870 away. And I've, I've told a number of 395 00:22:11,880 --> 00:22:15,420 young lawyers that when I meet them for coffee, and I think 396 00:22:15,430 --> 00:22:18,360 some of them feel energized and motivated by it. 397 00:22:18,370 --> 00:22:21,420 So I, I really hope that if anyone's going through something 398 00:22:21,430 --> 00:22:23,400 like that, that they take that away as well. 399 00:22:23,470 --> 00:22:25,240 I really appreciate it. Thank you so much. 400 00:22:25,250 --> 00:22:28,120 I think we couldn't have finished our conversation on a 401 00:22:28,130 --> 00:22:29,420 higher note. Thank you. 402 00:22:29,510 --> 00:22:30,940 Thank you, Claudio.