1 00:00:12,870 --> 00:00:14,860 Welcome to Studying Law Around the World. 2 00:00:15,010 --> 00:00:17,860 I'm Claudio Claus. In each episode, I talk with 3 00:00:17,870 --> 00:00:20,840 lawyers, law students, and professors from different parts 4 00:00:20,850 --> 00:00:24,740 of the world to talk about legal education, careers, and what the 5 00:00:24,750 --> 00:00:26,420 profession looks like in real life. 6 00:00:26,430 --> 00:00:29,470 We talk about the hard parts, the surprises, and the decisions 7 00:00:29,480 --> 00:00:32,259 that shaped their paths. Whether you're planning to study 8 00:00:32,270 --> 00:00:35,520 abroad, thinking about working in another legal system, or just 9 00:00:35,530 --> 00:00:39,640 curious about how law works around the world, this podcast 10 00:00:39,650 --> 00:00:44,140 is for you. Hello everybody, welcome to 11 00:00:44,150 --> 00:00:46,280 another episode of studying law around the world. 12 00:00:46,290 --> 00:00:49,400 Today I'm having the privilege of interviewing Ken Kunken. 13 00:00:49,470 --> 00:00:53,280 Ken has an incredible story and I'm so excited that he's here to 14 00:00:53,290 --> 00:00:56,540 share with us today. He has a story that is quite 15 00:00:56,550 --> 00:00:58,120 unique. He broke his neck playing 16 00:00:58,130 --> 00:01:01,840 football for Cornell University in 1970, living in almost 17 00:01:01,850 --> 00:01:04,000 totally paralyzed from shoulders down. 18 00:01:04,069 --> 00:01:08,040 After a lengthy hospitalization can return to Cornell where he 19 00:01:08,050 --> 00:01:10,760 completed his undergrad degree in engineering. 20 00:01:10,830 --> 00:01:14,700 He then earned a Masters of Arts at Cornell in education as well 21 00:01:14,710 --> 00:01:18,210 as a Masters of Education degree at Columbia University in 22 00:01:18,220 --> 00:01:20,120 psychology. Ken became a nationally 23 00:01:20,130 --> 00:01:22,580 certified rehabilitation counselor. 24 00:01:22,650 --> 00:01:26,670 He worked for more than two years at Abilities Inc, where he 25 00:01:26,680 --> 00:01:29,230 provided vocational and placement counseling for 26 00:01:29,240 --> 00:01:32,630 severely disabled individuals. Wanting to accomplish still 27 00:01:32,640 --> 00:01:36,650 more, Can enrolled in Hofstra University's School of Law. 28 00:01:36,700 --> 00:01:40,230 Can then worked for more than 40 years as a Nassau County 29 00:01:40,300 --> 00:01:44,010 assistant District Attorney, where he became a deputy Bureau 30 00:01:44,020 --> 00:01:46,060 chief. Thank you so much for making the 31 00:01:46,070 --> 00:01:47,690 time to be here, Ken. Once again. 32 00:01:47,740 --> 00:01:50,900 Ken is married and a father of triplet boys, and also the 33 00:01:50,910 --> 00:01:54,510 writer of I Dream of Things That Never Were, the Can Cancan 34 00:01:54,520 --> 00:01:57,910 story, which was published in 2020. 3 Thank you Claudio. 35 00:01:57,920 --> 00:02:00,010 Thank you for having me as your. Guest absolutely. 36 00:02:00,020 --> 00:02:01,510 I'm very happy you're here today. 37 00:02:01,520 --> 00:02:06,460 OK, well I'm currently 75 years old and happily retired, but as 38 00:02:06,470 --> 00:02:09,889 you said, in 1970 I unfortunately had a spinal cord 39 00:02:09,960 --> 00:02:12,700 things really playing football at the beginning of my junior 40 00:02:12,710 --> 00:02:16,250 year in college, and as a result I'm a quadriplegic. 41 00:02:16,310 --> 00:02:19,710 I'm almost totally paralyzed below the shoulders, so I have 42 00:02:19,720 --> 00:02:23,070 just a little bit of movement in my left arm and nothing on the 43 00:02:23,080 --> 00:02:26,180 right side of my body. But I was fortunate that after a 44 00:02:26,190 --> 00:02:28,340 lengthy period of hospitalization and 45 00:02:28,350 --> 00:02:31,920 rehabilitation, I was able to return to school, get a number 46 00:02:31,930 --> 00:02:35,120 of degrees and eventually go to law. 47 00:02:35,130 --> 00:02:37,540 School. So when when you look back at 48 00:02:37,550 --> 00:02:40,020 your legal career, maybe what are some of the biggest 49 00:02:40,070 --> 00:02:43,560 structural or institutional barriers that you faced and 50 00:02:43,570 --> 00:02:45,880 which ones do you think should exist for lawyers? 51 00:02:45,890 --> 00:02:47,600 Today. Well, that's interesting 52 00:02:47,610 --> 00:02:52,170 question. Got injured in 1970. 53 00:02:52,220 --> 00:02:55,490 That was about 20 years before the Americans with Disabilities 54 00:02:55,500 --> 00:02:59,030 Act took effect. So architecturally, very few 55 00:02:59,040 --> 00:03:02,120 facilities were accessible to somebody in a wheelchair. 56 00:03:03,040 --> 00:03:08,030 When I went back to Cornell soon after my injury, my first day of 57 00:03:08,040 --> 00:03:11,940 classes, I had to be either pulled up or bounced down close 58 00:03:11,950 --> 00:03:15,030 to 100 steps just to attend my first day. 59 00:03:15,080 --> 00:03:20,230 Well, let me jump ahead to going to law school and then working 60 00:03:20,240 --> 00:03:23,450 as a lawyer. Through a lot of help from 61 00:03:23,460 --> 00:03:27,790 classmates and personal care attendants and family, I was 62 00:03:27,800 --> 00:03:30,750 able to complete law school in the standard three-year time 63 00:03:30,760 --> 00:03:34,780 period. I did an internship at the 64 00:03:34,790 --> 00:03:37,600 Nassau County District Attorney's Office and really 65 00:03:37,610 --> 00:03:43,160 liked it a lot and when I took the bar exam they needed to make 66 00:03:43,170 --> 00:03:45,550 special arrangements for me because I couldn't write. 67 00:03:45,560 --> 00:03:49,510 So they had somebody assigned to do the writing for me, but they 68 00:03:49,520 --> 00:03:52,750 only gave me a little extra time before the other individual 69 00:03:52,760 --> 00:03:54,870 started. They didn't give me any extra 70 00:03:54,880 --> 00:03:58,710 time on the back end, which meant it takes a few hours just 71 00:03:58,720 --> 00:04:01,470 to get me up and ready in the morning and they get to the 72 00:04:01,480 --> 00:04:03,710 test. So even if I were to get up at 73 00:04:03,720 --> 00:04:06,670 5:00 in the morning, I would have difficulty getting there at 74 00:04:06,680 --> 00:04:09,550 8:00 in the morning to get a little extra time to start the 75 00:04:09,560 --> 00:04:12,370 test. Now in America they give you 2 76 00:04:12,380 --> 00:04:16,050 extra days to take the ball exams instead of in two days you 77 00:04:16,060 --> 00:04:19,290 can have four days. They didn't do that when I took 78 00:04:19,300 --> 00:04:20,930 it. I still had to do it in the 79 00:04:21,019 --> 00:04:24,540 required 2 days and only had a slightly more crime at the 80 00:04:24,550 --> 00:04:26,710 beginning then the rest of the test takers. 81 00:04:26,720 --> 00:04:31,240 So that was quite a challenge. So let me jump ahead and say 82 00:04:31,250 --> 00:04:35,020 that I was able to complete law school in the standard 83 00:04:35,030 --> 00:04:37,650 three-year time period. Passed the difficult New York 84 00:04:37,660 --> 00:04:40,060 State Bar exam the first time that I took it. 85 00:04:40,110 --> 00:04:43,300 Began my work at the District Attorneys office by 86 00:04:43,310 --> 00:04:46,260 participating in a very intensive 4 week training 87 00:04:46,270 --> 00:04:50,100 program where they taught us all aspects of trial techniques from 88 00:04:50,110 --> 00:04:53,360 a prosecutor's perspective. And I very proudly went to court 89 00:04:53,370 --> 00:04:55,860 my first day only to find I couldn't fit through the 90 00:04:55,870 --> 00:04:57,500 swinging doorways in the courtroom. 91 00:04:57,550 --> 00:05:00,510 They were too narrow to allow me to get through in my electric 92 00:05:00,520 --> 00:05:03,420 wheelchair to get to where the lawyers sat and to the 93 00:05:03,430 --> 00:05:05,640 prosecutors table. So that's how I began. 94 00:05:05,650 --> 00:05:08,950 After all that schooling, all that training, I had difficulty 95 00:05:08,960 --> 00:05:11,850 getting into the courtroom. So you talk about structural 96 00:05:11,860 --> 00:05:14,170 barriers and obstacles. I would say that's one of the 97 00:05:14,180 --> 00:05:16,230 1st that I encountered. Absolutely. 98 00:05:16,240 --> 00:05:20,390 And and when you think about, you know, what practicing law 99 00:05:20,400 --> 00:05:25,070 looks like today, I'm sure that, you know, a lot has has gotten 100 00:05:25,080 --> 00:05:27,950 better over the years. But do you see some kind of 101 00:05:27,960 --> 00:05:32,370 kinds of barriers as well in today's world for lawyers? 102 00:05:32,490 --> 00:05:34,690 There's still a lot of attitudinal barriers. 103 00:05:34,920 --> 00:05:38,050 I mean, people with disabilities, while now they 104 00:05:38,060 --> 00:05:41,290 have a better chance of getting employment, still face a lot of 105 00:05:41,300 --> 00:05:43,650 discrimination. And it's tough to convince an 106 00:05:43,660 --> 00:05:48,830 employer that while you may have a certain physical disability, 107 00:05:48,900 --> 00:05:53,010 there's still a lot you could do and they need to look at your 108 00:05:53,020 --> 00:05:55,280 abilities rather than your disability. 109 00:05:55,350 --> 00:05:59,240 I might add that when I was first heard in 1970 and I was 110 00:05:59,250 --> 00:06:04,660 undergoing rehabilitation, I was at a well known rehabilitation 111 00:06:04,670 --> 00:06:08,080 institute and I kept trying to find out more about my 112 00:06:08,090 --> 00:06:11,180 disability and the medical profession seemed reluctant to 113 00:06:11,190 --> 00:06:14,440 share much information with me. But I was able to get a hold of 114 00:06:14,450 --> 00:06:17,780 a pamphlet that the rehab facility put out and it 115 00:06:17,790 --> 00:06:20,950 described a lot about spinal cord injuries. 116 00:06:21,280 --> 00:06:25,320 And I'm injured between the 4th and 5th cervical in the neck. 117 00:06:25,330 --> 00:06:30,940 And they had sections broken down by the level of your injury 118 00:06:30,950 --> 00:06:34,180 because that determines how much movement you might have. 119 00:06:34,300 --> 00:06:37,310 Now I have, as I said, just a very little movement in my left 120 00:06:37,320 --> 00:06:40,810 arm, nothing in my fingers on my wrist, and nothing on the right 121 00:06:40,820 --> 00:06:43,250 side of my body. So I remember when I looked up 122 00:06:43,260 --> 00:06:47,510 what type of career I could do as what they call it, C45 123 00:06:47,520 --> 00:06:50,470 quadriplegic. The only job that I saw for 124 00:06:50,480 --> 00:06:53,430 somebody in my condition would be to someday sell magazine 125 00:06:53,440 --> 00:06:55,150 subscriptions over the telephone. 126 00:06:55,240 --> 00:06:58,770 And I was devastated. I mean, here I had been studying 127 00:06:58,780 --> 00:07:02,310 engineering at one of the finest colleges for engineering in the 128 00:07:02,320 --> 00:07:04,410 country. And now it seemed like I was 129 00:07:04,420 --> 00:07:07,390 looking forward to selling magazine subscriptions over the 130 00:07:07,400 --> 00:07:09,210 telephone. And then to make it worse, 131 00:07:09,220 --> 00:07:12,830 Claudio, they didn't even have touch tone phones back then. 132 00:07:13,040 --> 00:07:16,430 They only had Rotary phones. So I was not even able to dial a 133 00:07:16,440 --> 00:07:20,870 telephone, let alone take notes right or make the phone call. 134 00:07:20,880 --> 00:07:23,070 So it didn't look very promising. 135 00:07:25,220 --> 00:07:28,690 And the computers back then, this was before they really had 136 00:07:28,700 --> 00:07:31,810 laptop computers or, you know, they were just starting to 137 00:07:31,820 --> 00:07:34,030 develop it. So I really didn't have enough 138 00:07:34,040 --> 00:07:38,370 movement to use, you know, one of these tabletop computers. 139 00:07:38,380 --> 00:07:41,080 And it was difficult to do anything my computer. 140 00:07:41,090 --> 00:07:43,140 And it was really before they started with the voice 141 00:07:43,150 --> 00:07:46,740 recognition computers. So trying to do legal research 142 00:07:46,750 --> 00:07:50,070 when I was in law school was really, really difficult. 143 00:07:50,420 --> 00:07:56,730 And, you know, getting books to do research or, you know, help 144 00:07:56,740 --> 00:07:59,840 with trying to prepare, you know, a case when you have 145 00:07:59,850 --> 00:08:02,860 difficulty taking notes was incredibly frustrating and 146 00:08:02,870 --> 00:08:04,990 difficult getting through law school. 147 00:08:05,050 --> 00:08:07,490 I mean, there was so much reading to do and I had 148 00:08:07,500 --> 00:08:11,400 difficulty having turning pages of a book to try and read, you 149 00:08:11,410 --> 00:08:14,760 know, let alone get books off the library shelf to do legal 150 00:08:14,770 --> 00:08:17,540 research. So I faced a lot of challenges. 151 00:08:17,550 --> 00:08:20,300 Most people never had a face. How did other peoples 152 00:08:20,310 --> 00:08:24,630 expectations, you know, whether they were low or whether they 153 00:08:24,640 --> 00:08:28,060 were very high, shape your career choices and opportunities 154 00:08:28,070 --> 00:08:31,980 overtime, especially as you joined the legal field. 155 00:08:32,030 --> 00:08:37,000 The expectations for someone in my condition was so low that 156 00:08:37,010 --> 00:08:39,900 everybody seemed to have the attitude, you just can't do it. 157 00:08:39,950 --> 00:08:42,740 I mean, face it, with your disability, you're not going to 158 00:08:42,750 --> 00:08:47,360 be able to do it. And I was convinced, you know, I 159 00:08:47,370 --> 00:08:50,630 can still do an awful lot if I'm just given the opportunity. 160 00:08:51,310 --> 00:08:55,520 So let me talk a little bit about before I even went to law 161 00:08:55,530 --> 00:08:58,140 school here. I got a bachelor's degree from 162 00:08:58,150 --> 00:09:02,400 Cornell and engineering became the first quadriplegic to ever 163 00:09:02,410 --> 00:09:06,500 graduate from Cornell. But I knew engineering was not a 164 00:09:06,510 --> 00:09:09,140 viable field for me. Again, this was well before they 165 00:09:09,150 --> 00:09:13,520 had laptop computers. So I pursued a career in 166 00:09:13,530 --> 00:09:17,400 counseling and I went to Cornell, earned a Master of Arts 167 00:09:17,410 --> 00:09:21,270 degree in counseling and student personnel administration, became 168 00:09:21,280 --> 00:09:24,300 the first quadriplegic to ever earn a graduate degree from 169 00:09:24,310 --> 00:09:25,980 Cornell. And then I went to Columbia 170 00:09:25,990 --> 00:09:28,340 University and earned a second graduate degree. 171 00:09:28,400 --> 00:09:31,780 This one was in psychological counseling and rehabilitation. 172 00:09:31,850 --> 00:09:35,190 And at the very beginning of that degree, I met with my 173 00:09:35,250 --> 00:09:38,500 advisor who told me despite what they were teaching in 174 00:09:38,510 --> 00:09:41,480 rehabilitation counseling, he wasn't sure I'd ever be able to 175 00:09:41,490 --> 00:09:44,060 even get a job. He felt it would be so difficult 176 00:09:44,070 --> 00:09:46,760 to get a job in my condition. Even people in the 177 00:09:46,770 --> 00:09:49,800 rehabilitation field would be hesitant to hire. 178 00:09:49,810 --> 00:09:51,960 Well, I was determined to move forward. 179 00:09:52,410 --> 00:09:57,080 And you know, when I completed the schooling here, I had two 180 00:09:57,090 --> 00:10:02,280 degrees from Cornell, 1° from Columbia, 3 prestigious Ivy 181 00:10:02,290 --> 00:10:06,220 League degrees in America, which is very prestigious, 2 masters 182 00:10:06,230 --> 00:10:08,020 degrees, and no one would hire me. 183 00:10:08,070 --> 00:10:10,550 I mailed out and not emailed. They didn't have it. 184 00:10:10,810 --> 00:10:15,520 Mailed out physically more than 200 resumes and looked for a job 185 00:10:15,530 --> 00:10:17,400 for a year. And everybody seemed to think 186 00:10:17,470 --> 00:10:20,330 that was just too disabled to work, Claudio. 187 00:10:20,340 --> 00:10:23,130 I was even turned down when I offered to volunteer my 188 00:10:23,140 --> 00:10:25,690 services. So that's what it was like back 189 00:10:25,700 --> 00:10:29,870 then. And I was fortunate to find one 190 00:10:29,880 --> 00:10:33,350 organization willing to give me the opportunity to show what I 191 00:10:33,360 --> 00:10:35,110 could do. And that organization was 192 00:10:35,120 --> 00:10:38,170 Abilities Incorporated, which is part of what's now called the 193 00:10:38,180 --> 00:10:41,450 Viscardi Centre, after its founder, Doctor Henry Viscardi. 194 00:10:41,620 --> 00:10:44,710 And they hired me to work as a vocational rehabilitation 195 00:10:44,720 --> 00:10:47,830 counselor for other individuals with disabilities. 196 00:10:49,020 --> 00:10:52,230 And part of my duties would be to speak at conferences and 197 00:10:52,240 --> 00:10:56,250 organizations concerning affirmative action and non 198 00:10:56,260 --> 00:10:59,020 discrimination for people with disabilities. 199 00:11:00,160 --> 00:11:04,130 And after my talks, I would often be asked questions and I 200 00:11:04,140 --> 00:11:06,970 was always careful to caution. The question is they should 201 00:11:06,980 --> 00:11:09,590 really consult with a lawyer about their concerns. 202 00:11:09,600 --> 00:11:12,130 And I guess it didn't take long before I started to think, you 203 00:11:12,140 --> 00:11:14,730 know, there's no reason why I couldn't become that lawyer. 204 00:11:14,780 --> 00:11:18,610 So I left my job and went to the Hoster University School of Law. 205 00:11:18,680 --> 00:11:21,680 And I might add that I have an older brother who was practicing 206 00:11:21,690 --> 00:11:24,490 criminal law at the time. He was a defence attorney. 207 00:11:24,500 --> 00:11:27,190 So I used to go to court and watch him. 208 00:11:27,260 --> 00:11:30,070 And I thought this looked like something interesting that 209 00:11:30,080 --> 00:11:33,850 perhaps I could do. Now, I might add that when I was 210 00:11:33,860 --> 00:11:37,590 finally given the chance to work, that did wonders for my 211 00:11:37,600 --> 00:11:42,070 self esteem, myself, confidence, my feelings of self worth. 212 00:11:42,130 --> 00:11:45,550 Because after being told no so many times and that you just 213 00:11:45,620 --> 00:11:48,780 can't do it, finally I was there in a position where I could help 214 00:11:48,790 --> 00:11:51,260 others. And that made a huge difference 215 00:11:51,270 --> 00:11:53,030 for me. Absolutely huge. 216 00:11:53,590 --> 00:11:57,140 But I had the opportunity to do an internship while I was in law 217 00:11:57,150 --> 00:11:59,280 school at the district attorneys office. 218 00:11:59,290 --> 00:12:01,060 And I just fell in love with the job. 219 00:12:01,070 --> 00:12:04,820 And I thought it looked like something I could do because to 220 00:12:04,830 --> 00:12:08,260 me, it looked like I'd be using my speaking ability as opposed 221 00:12:08,270 --> 00:12:09,700 to a lot of research and writing. 222 00:12:09,770 --> 00:12:12,820 And I thought it took a lot of guts on the part of the district 223 00:12:12,830 --> 00:12:14,940 attorneys office to hire me when they did. 224 00:12:14,950 --> 00:12:17,540 Because when they hired me, there had not been a 225 00:12:17,550 --> 00:12:20,420 quadriplegic who was an assistant District Attorney on 226 00:12:20,430 --> 00:12:23,580 Long Island ever. So here I thought that took a 227 00:12:23,590 --> 00:12:26,200 lot of guts on there. And in fact, they hired me to be 228 00:12:26,210 --> 00:12:29,600 a trial attorney. So I was actually going to court 229 00:12:29,750 --> 00:12:33,720 and trying cases before juries. You just didn't see that back 230 00:12:33,730 --> 00:12:35,760 then, certainly not on Long Island. 231 00:12:35,770 --> 00:12:39,740 And I've been very happy with my career choice of pursuing. 232 00:12:39,750 --> 00:12:42,700 More that's amazing. So you you did work for decades 233 00:12:42,710 --> 00:12:45,920 as a prosecutor and I want to hear a little bit from you, you 234 00:12:45,930 --> 00:12:49,400 know, what the justice look like to you in practice and also 235 00:12:49,410 --> 00:12:52,360 throughout your career, you know, did your perspective on on 236 00:12:52,370 --> 00:12:56,960 fairness on on, you know, this aspect of justice evolved and 237 00:12:56,970 --> 00:12:58,590 changed. Very much so. 238 00:12:58,600 --> 00:13:02,600 You know, when I worked as a rehab counselor, I think the 239 00:13:02,610 --> 00:13:06,000 advice that I was given is going to some type of advocacy law, 240 00:13:06,190 --> 00:13:08,500 see if you can help others with disabilities. 241 00:13:08,510 --> 00:13:12,480 But as it turned out, I just grew really attracted to working 242 00:13:12,490 --> 00:13:16,220 in criminal law thanks to watching my brother and doing 243 00:13:16,230 --> 00:13:18,190 the internship at the DA's office. 244 00:13:18,260 --> 00:13:20,590 But of course, watching my brother, he was a defence 245 00:13:20,600 --> 00:13:23,730 attorney, so he worked on the other side of the Ohio. 246 00:13:23,740 --> 00:13:27,050 So I was used to looking at every case from a defence 247 00:13:27,060 --> 00:13:29,290 perspective. And suddenly here I did an 248 00:13:29,300 --> 00:13:33,370 interview internship, the DA's office and really enjoyed not 249 00:13:33,380 --> 00:13:37,510 only the work there, but how physically it made more sense 250 00:13:37,520 --> 00:13:41,290 for me to be on that side. For one, my office, the district 251 00:13:41,300 --> 00:13:44,030 attorneys office, was in the same building as the courthouse. 252 00:13:44,100 --> 00:13:46,930 Now that made a huge difference because defence attorneys didn't 253 00:13:46,940 --> 00:13:49,340 have their office in the courthouse too. 254 00:13:49,560 --> 00:13:53,470 We had a lot of secretaries and law student intern as well as 255 00:13:53,920 --> 00:13:58,680 police detectives and police officers to help with the with 256 00:13:58,690 --> 00:14:01,060 the work. It just seemed to make the most 257 00:14:01,070 --> 00:14:04,820 sense for me to work on the prosecution side and that was 258 00:14:04,830 --> 00:14:07,380 something I never thought I would do. 259 00:14:07,390 --> 00:14:10,710 I mean, God, there were a lot of television shows about lawyers 260 00:14:10,720 --> 00:14:13,060 when I was growing up. But everyone, the hero was the 261 00:14:13,070 --> 00:14:15,220 defence attorney. You didn't see the hero of it 262 00:14:15,230 --> 00:14:19,100 being the prosecutor. So it was quite a change for me 263 00:14:19,110 --> 00:14:22,080 to decide to work as a prosecutor, and I was so 264 00:14:22,090 --> 00:14:24,980 fortunate to be hired and given that opportunity. 265 00:14:24,990 --> 00:14:27,810 That's fantastic. Well, I feel like many lawyers, 266 00:14:27,820 --> 00:14:30,800 you know, to this day feel pressured to feet, you know, a 267 00:14:30,810 --> 00:14:33,380 certain image of what success looked like. 268 00:14:33,460 --> 00:14:37,100 And I'm curious, did you ever feel that kind of pressure and 269 00:14:37,110 --> 00:14:40,690 and how did you, you know, come to the find success on your own 270 00:14:40,700 --> 00:14:42,630 terms? I felt a lot of pressure being 271 00:14:42,640 --> 00:14:46,030 in the office because I'm dealing with victims of crimes 272 00:14:46,040 --> 00:14:48,340 all day long. And many of these victims have 273 00:14:48,350 --> 00:14:52,610 been severely traumatized. They this has changed their life 274 00:14:52,650 --> 00:14:54,670 forever. You know, they didn't feel safe 275 00:14:54,680 --> 00:14:57,800 alone at times. They didn't feel safe going into 276 00:14:57,810 --> 00:15:03,000 court and facing the defendant and being cross examined about, 277 00:15:03,090 --> 00:15:05,400 you know, the worst incident of their life. 278 00:15:05,910 --> 00:15:10,500 And dealing with witnesses, you know, took a lot of 279 00:15:10,590 --> 00:15:13,720 understanding to know how difficult it was for them, 280 00:15:13,770 --> 00:15:16,460 right? And to encourage them to come 281 00:15:16,470 --> 00:15:19,890 into court and relive that terrible experience while the 282 00:15:19,900 --> 00:15:22,670 defence attorney is cross examining them and trying to 283 00:15:22,680 --> 00:15:25,420 show that either they don't remember correctly or they're 284 00:15:25,430 --> 00:15:29,150 mistaken or just not telling the truth. 285 00:15:29,810 --> 00:15:34,240 And here I am dealing with witnesses now trying to reassure 286 00:15:34,250 --> 00:15:37,540 them, calm them down because they're all really nervous. 287 00:15:37,610 --> 00:15:41,940 And I found my, my background in psychology and education helped 288 00:15:41,950 --> 00:15:44,480 a lot with that. I found my background in 289 00:15:44,490 --> 00:15:48,340 engineering helped me approach all my cases with a very logical 290 00:15:48,350 --> 00:15:51,800 step by step process. So I think my very bracket 291 00:15:51,890 --> 00:15:55,520 background helped a lot and what I ended up deciding to do. 292 00:15:55,790 --> 00:15:58,820 I understand that throughout your career, too, you have 293 00:15:58,830 --> 00:16:02,420 supervised lawyers, you worked closely with different teams. 294 00:16:02,470 --> 00:16:06,540 And what have you learned about, you know, leadership, trust, 295 00:16:06,610 --> 00:16:08,660 performance? What are some of the things you 296 00:16:08,670 --> 00:16:11,380 observed in these environments where people bring very 297 00:16:11,390 --> 00:16:14,550 different lived experience? Well, it really helped a lot my 298 00:16:14,560 --> 00:16:18,570 background and eventually after doing a whole lot of trials and 299 00:16:18,580 --> 00:16:22,540 pretrial hearings and grand jury presentation, I've been promoted 300 00:16:22,550 --> 00:16:25,710 a number of times until I eventually became one of the 301 00:16:25,720 --> 00:16:28,490 deputy Bureau chiefs of our county court trial Bureau. 302 00:16:28,500 --> 00:16:33,190 And now I was supervising more than 25 other assistant district 303 00:16:33,200 --> 00:16:35,960 attorneys. So I think both my education and 304 00:16:35,970 --> 00:16:39,670 psychology background helped a lot with dealing not only with 305 00:16:39,680 --> 00:16:43,350 witnesses, but dealing with the assistant district attorneys as 306 00:16:43,360 --> 00:16:45,690 well. Many of them were new 307 00:16:45,700 --> 00:16:48,570 assistants, so they were still learning trial techniques. 308 00:16:48,580 --> 00:16:51,910 So there was a lot of teaching involved in what I was doing. 309 00:16:51,960 --> 00:16:55,270 But in addition, I, I think most people don't realize or 310 00:16:55,280 --> 00:16:58,880 recognize a lot of lawyers are very nervous before they go to 311 00:16:58,890 --> 00:17:01,250 court as well. People think you're used to 312 00:17:01,260 --> 00:17:02,600 that. Well, I was dealing with a lot 313 00:17:02,610 --> 00:17:06,520 of relatively new assistance and going into court can be very 314 00:17:06,530 --> 00:17:10,710 intimidating And knowing, you know, your witness is going to 315 00:17:10,720 --> 00:17:13,579 be cross examined And there are a lot of, you know, not just 316 00:17:13,589 --> 00:17:16,040 witnesses, but there are police officers watching you. 317 00:17:16,050 --> 00:17:19,500 They're judges and court officers, but also witnesses 318 00:17:19,510 --> 00:17:22,240 that are depending on you. And now you're in front of a 319 00:17:22,250 --> 00:17:25,920 jury and picking a jury and trying to look confident when 320 00:17:25,930 --> 00:17:29,780 there's so many things racing through your mind and trying not 321 00:17:29,790 --> 00:17:32,810 to forget anything. And knowing that if you screw up 322 00:17:33,780 --> 00:17:38,230 on a very serious case, the defendant could be let go and 323 00:17:38,240 --> 00:17:41,430 perhaps threaten or harm, you know, one of your witnesses. 324 00:17:41,980 --> 00:17:48,440 And that couldn't be incredibly scary and intimidating when, you 325 00:17:48,450 --> 00:17:50,580 know, there's a lot riding on this. 326 00:17:50,590 --> 00:17:53,250 And your witnesses, your victims, are placing their 327 00:17:53,260 --> 00:17:56,410 entire faith into you and the system, and it's a lot of 328 00:17:56,420 --> 00:18:00,650 responsibility. And, and, and, and Ken, thinking 329 00:18:00,660 --> 00:18:03,460 about, you know, specifically our audience here, our young 330 00:18:03,470 --> 00:18:06,170 lawyers, early career professionals, how they can, you 331 00:18:06,180 --> 00:18:09,980 know, navigate all the different pressures that a recent graduate 332 00:18:09,990 --> 00:18:14,180 has, whether that is, you know, student loans or whether that 333 00:18:14,190 --> 00:18:18,560 is, you know, having a family or just, you know, this need to 334 00:18:18,570 --> 00:18:21,720 succeed in the profession that they're just starting and 335 00:18:21,770 --> 00:18:23,540 understanding all of this context. 336 00:18:23,550 --> 00:18:27,400 I'm curious, you know, if, if a young lawyer today feels that 337 00:18:27,410 --> 00:18:31,020 the system was not built with that in mind, what practical 338 00:18:31,030 --> 00:18:34,280 steps would you suggest to help them build a meaningful and 339 00:18:34,290 --> 00:18:37,850 sustainable career? Well. 1 work on their listening 340 00:18:37,860 --> 00:18:39,970 skills. I mean, sometimes you are so 341 00:18:39,980 --> 00:18:43,290 focused on the question you're going to ask next or what's the 342 00:18:43,300 --> 00:18:47,650 next thing you need to do that you forget to listen to what 343 00:18:47,660 --> 00:18:49,630 you're witnesses are telling you happen. 344 00:18:49,700 --> 00:18:52,930 And when you're trying to ask questions and a witness may give 345 00:18:52,940 --> 00:18:55,460 you an answer you aren't expecting, sometimes you got to 346 00:18:55,470 --> 00:18:59,210 deviate from what we planned script you might have and follow 347 00:18:59,220 --> 00:19:02,240 up on the questions and answers that you just received. 348 00:19:02,250 --> 00:19:05,700 And as I said before, you got to recognize a lot of the attorneys 349 00:19:05,710 --> 00:19:09,790 you're supervising are under a lot of stress, are feeling very 350 00:19:09,800 --> 00:19:13,150 nervous, and a lot of times you've got to just help them to 351 00:19:13,160 --> 00:19:17,490 relax and be the best they can be and develop self-confidence 352 00:19:17,500 --> 00:19:21,180 in themselves. And another thing that you need 353 00:19:21,190 --> 00:19:26,200 to develop your skills is learning the law really well. 354 00:19:26,250 --> 00:19:28,730 I mean, when you're a supervisor, people are hitting 355 00:19:28,740 --> 00:19:31,600 you with questions from all different sides and all 356 00:19:31,610 --> 00:19:34,340 different cases all at once. And when you're a trial 357 00:19:34,350 --> 00:19:38,200 attorney, you usually try to learn as best you can all the 358 00:19:38,210 --> 00:19:41,840 facts and rules of law pertaining to that one case. 359 00:19:41,850 --> 00:19:45,500 When you're a supervisor, you're being bombarded with questions 360 00:19:45,570 --> 00:19:48,580 about 20 or 30 different cases all at once. 361 00:19:48,590 --> 00:19:51,460 And you need to try and learn the law as best you can. 362 00:19:51,470 --> 00:19:55,300 Be patient with all of these questions and concerns and do 363 00:19:55,310 --> 00:19:58,920 your best to guide the young lawyers appropriately, as well 364 00:19:58,930 --> 00:20:02,580 as dealing with witnesses and police officers and judges. 365 00:20:02,660 --> 00:20:05,960 Will often get frustrated with the district attorneys office 366 00:20:06,030 --> 00:20:10,680 because they wanna move cases along and while they're often 367 00:20:10,690 --> 00:20:14,000 very cognizant of the defence attorney schedules, all 368 00:20:14,010 --> 00:20:17,900 witnesses time where they may be on vacation or away, they 369 00:20:17,910 --> 00:20:20,820 usually feel the district attorneys office is so big you 370 00:20:20,830 --> 00:20:23,150 could always have somebody step in and do the case. 371 00:20:23,160 --> 00:20:25,220 Well, that's not necessarily true. 372 00:20:25,270 --> 00:20:28,300 I mean, it takes a lot of work to prepare a case, you know, 373 00:20:28,310 --> 00:20:31,040 bring it up to speed where it needs to be. 374 00:20:31,110 --> 00:20:34,740 You can't just suddenly substitute one assistant for 375 00:20:34,750 --> 00:20:36,760 another. It doesn't work that way. 376 00:20:36,770 --> 00:20:39,920 So you're dealing with a lot of factors all at once, whether 377 00:20:39,930 --> 00:20:43,770 they be your witnesses, the police officers, the judges, the 378 00:20:43,780 --> 00:20:46,000 defence attorneys and their schedule. 379 00:20:46,420 --> 00:20:51,430 Um, as well as you all know, offices, guidelines and 380 00:20:51,440 --> 00:20:54,190 pressures that there's a lot to juggle all at once. 381 00:20:54,200 --> 00:20:57,180 And it's very stressful, not just for the other ADA, it's 382 00:20:57,190 --> 00:21:02,120 stressful for you as well. As we, as we go towards the end 383 00:21:02,130 --> 00:21:05,100 of our interview today, I wanted to ask you, you know, continuing 384 00:21:05,110 --> 00:21:09,240 on on on this idea of what, you know, young lawyers should keep 385 00:21:09,250 --> 00:21:11,850 in mind as they, you know, go about their careers. 386 00:21:11,860 --> 00:21:16,200 You, you gave an amazing advice of, you know, listen more, see 387 00:21:16,210 --> 00:21:20,060 what is needed of you. What are some other things that, 388 00:21:20,070 --> 00:21:23,020 you know, maybe as you were working with younger attorneys 389 00:21:23,030 --> 00:21:27,000 towards you throughout your career, you maybe saw that 390 00:21:27,010 --> 00:21:29,310 somebody did that really impressed you and that, you 391 00:21:29,320 --> 00:21:32,500 know, was really helpful? Well, one is to do your best you 392 00:21:32,510 --> 00:21:37,000 can to reassure the lawyers your supervising because as I said, 393 00:21:37,010 --> 00:21:38,940 many times, they're very nervous. 394 00:21:39,130 --> 00:21:42,510 They're under a lot of stress and they feel inadequate that 395 00:21:42,520 --> 00:21:46,760 they don't know the law well enough to go into court and face 396 00:21:46,770 --> 00:21:49,470 somebody who may be more skilled than them, you know, had more 397 00:21:49,480 --> 00:21:52,790 experience as an attorney. And one of the things I got to 398 00:21:52,800 --> 00:21:55,750 reemphasize is nobody's born with this knowledge. 399 00:21:55,760 --> 00:21:58,390 You know, you learn it oftentimes gradually. 400 00:21:58,720 --> 00:22:03,070 And you've got to do your best to study hard, listen to what 401 00:22:03,120 --> 00:22:07,190 you know, your witnesses are telling you, read up on the law, 402 00:22:07,580 --> 00:22:12,190 attend other colleagues trials and pretrial hearings to get, 403 00:22:12,260 --> 00:22:18,670 you know, a lot of suggestions how other people do it and to do 404 00:22:18,680 --> 00:22:21,560 your best to relax. You obviously do a better job 405 00:22:21,570 --> 00:22:24,490 when you're relaxed than when you're under a lot of stress. 406 00:22:24,500 --> 00:22:26,970 And to know that it's a learning process. 407 00:22:26,980 --> 00:22:30,610 Don't be too hard on yourself, but don't lose confidence, you 408 00:22:30,620 --> 00:22:33,820 know, never quit, never give up. And if one trial doesn't go the 409 00:22:33,830 --> 00:22:36,730 way you would have liked it to have gone, move on to the next 410 00:22:36,740 --> 00:22:38,190 one and hopefully you'll do better. 411 00:22:38,490 --> 00:22:40,710 It's my pleasure. And if I could help others, that 412 00:22:40,720 --> 00:22:44,290 would be my pleasure to do. And I might add that in addition 413 00:22:44,300 --> 00:22:50,130 to supervising ADA, I also supervised a lot of law interns. 414 00:22:51,320 --> 00:22:55,230 And not only did I enjoy that, but I was trying to impart to 415 00:22:55,240 --> 00:22:59,870 the interns, whether it be tips or basic information that I 416 00:22:59,880 --> 00:23:03,050 thought would have been helpful at somebody imparted to me while 417 00:23:03,060 --> 00:23:05,550 I was in law school or thinking about a career. 418 00:23:05,560 --> 00:23:09,770 And I hope experienced lawyers will be very willing to help 419 00:23:09,780 --> 00:23:13,590 other students in law school or once they're out in the field to 420 00:23:13,600 --> 00:23:16,520 gain that knowledge and that experience and know that 421 00:23:16,640 --> 00:23:19,510 nobody's born with this knowledge or experience. 422 00:23:19,520 --> 00:23:22,910 And it takes a while to develop and get good at it, and to be 423 00:23:22,920 --> 00:23:26,410 patient and do your best to help make the system work for 424 00:23:26,420 --> 00:23:28,330 everybody. Thank you all for tuning into 425 00:23:28,340 --> 00:23:29,450 today's episodes.