1 00:00:06,630 --> 00:00:08,560 Welcome to your studying law Around the world. 2 00:00:08,770 --> 00:00:11,620 I'm Claudio Claus. In each episode, I talk with 3 00:00:11,630 --> 00:00:14,600 lawyers, law students, and professors from different parts 4 00:00:14,610 --> 00:00:18,860 of the world to talk about legal education, careers, and what the 5 00:00:18,870 --> 00:00:20,570 profession looks like in real life. 6 00:00:21,270 --> 00:00:24,380 We talk about the hard parts, the surprises, and the decisions 7 00:00:24,390 --> 00:00:27,520 that shaped their paths. Whether you're planning to study 8 00:00:27,530 --> 00:00:31,140 abroad, thinking about working in another legal system, or just 9 00:00:31,150 --> 00:00:35,260 curious about how law works around the world, this podcast 10 00:00:35,270 --> 00:00:38,780 is for you. This episode is sponsored by 11 00:00:38,790 --> 00:00:41,440 Contender. 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Tell them Claudio sent you. 23 00:01:30,930 --> 00:01:33,500 Hello everybody, welcome to another episode of Studying Law 24 00:01:33,510 --> 00:01:35,640 around the World. Should I have the opportunity to 25 00:01:35,650 --> 00:01:39,440 speak with John Clarke, who is a global education strategist with 26 00:01:39,450 --> 00:01:42,460 a passion for expanding access to learning across borders? 27 00:01:42,530 --> 00:01:46,060 After his career as a litigator, John transitioned into the world 28 00:01:46,070 --> 00:01:49,800 of international education where he spent over a decade work with 29 00:01:49,810 --> 00:01:52,940 the intersection of policy, research, marketing, and 30 00:01:52,950 --> 00:01:55,860 students mobility. He currently works at ETS, the 31 00:01:55,870 --> 00:01:59,900 organization behind the TOFO and GR, where he helps shape global 32 00:01:59,910 --> 00:02:02,310 initiatives that supports students on their academic 33 00:02:02,320 --> 00:02:04,990 journeys worldwide. Thank you so much for joining us 34 00:02:05,000 --> 00:02:06,570 today and welcome to the podcast, John. 35 00:02:06,620 --> 00:02:07,680 Yeah. Thank you, Claudio. 36 00:02:07,690 --> 00:02:09,070 I appreciate it. Amazing. 37 00:02:09,120 --> 00:02:11,690 And you start off her episode. I'd love if you could introduce 38 00:02:11,700 --> 00:02:14,150 yourself to your listeners. We would love to hear a little 39 00:02:14,160 --> 00:02:17,180 bit about this legal connection and the role you have today. 40 00:02:17,190 --> 00:02:20,470 And and even if you can mention that we just talked quickly that 41 00:02:20,480 --> 00:02:23,230 you are quite familiar with the L sat and all of that. 42 00:02:23,280 --> 00:02:26,070 Yeah, of course. So today I'm the Director of 43 00:02:26,080 --> 00:02:28,970 Strategic Initiatives at TS and I think you did a great job 44 00:02:29,020 --> 00:02:31,750 summarizing what I do. And in a nutshell, I spend most 45 00:02:31,760 --> 00:02:35,610 of my time working with our score users or a TOFU, we call 46 00:02:35,620 --> 00:02:39,480 them designated institutions. So there are 13,000 institutions 47 00:02:39,490 --> 00:02:42,460 worldwide that accepts TOEFL for various purposes. 48 00:02:42,470 --> 00:02:45,470 And so I spend a lot of time talking with them to make sure 49 00:02:45,480 --> 00:02:48,890 that we are meeting their needs. But I started my career as an 50 00:02:48,900 --> 00:02:51,220 attorney boy almost 15 years ago. 51 00:02:51,290 --> 00:02:55,130 It lasted a couple years in the profession and maybe we could 52 00:02:55,140 --> 00:02:57,360 save that for later on or just not discuss it at all. 53 00:02:57,370 --> 00:02:59,980 I, I enjoyed it, but it probably wasn't the right career choice 54 00:02:59,990 --> 00:03:02,340 for me. But when I was in law school, I 55 00:03:02,350 --> 00:03:04,980 went to law school at Southern Illinois University, which is a 56 00:03:04,990 --> 00:03:07,440 small regional public school in the US. 57 00:03:07,450 --> 00:03:11,220 And the Department of Continuing Education let me stand up and a 58 00:03:11,230 --> 00:03:14,540 prep class for the LSAT, which is the law school entrance exam 59 00:03:14,550 --> 00:03:19,030 for much of North America. And I so I gained familiarity 60 00:03:19,100 --> 00:03:22,890 with the L SAT and had a lot of fun teaching students how to 61 00:03:22,950 --> 00:03:25,970 succeed on that exam, which is a very different exam from TOEFL. 62 00:03:26,020 --> 00:03:28,970 But after a couple of years of practice, I ended up working for 63 00:03:28,980 --> 00:03:31,800 Kaplan and the test prep space. And that's how I got into the 64 00:03:31,810 --> 00:03:34,650 assessment world about 10 years. Ago, that's awesome. 65 00:03:34,700 --> 00:03:37,770 And asking you a little more about tofu itself. 66 00:03:37,820 --> 00:03:41,110 So I'm sure that most of our listeners who are in this space 67 00:03:41,120 --> 00:03:43,650 of being either an internationally trained lawyer 68 00:03:43,660 --> 00:03:46,770 or a lawyer from another country looking into becoming qualified 69 00:03:46,780 --> 00:03:49,410 in another jurisdictions, they might know the letters, they 70 00:03:49,420 --> 00:03:52,410 might know what it means. But I'd love to ask you a little 71 00:03:52,480 --> 00:03:55,500 murder, You know, what skills does the test really measure? 72 00:03:55,570 --> 00:03:58,680 And from what I saw here, universities have been relying 73 00:03:58,690 --> 00:04:01,410 on it for over 60 years now. Can you tell me a little more 74 00:04:01,420 --> 00:04:03,020 about that? It's been awhile, yeah. 75 00:04:03,030 --> 00:04:06,680 So the test of English as a foreign language was created in 76 00:04:06,690 --> 00:04:13,240 1964, which incidentally, was the year that AT&T's Bell Labs 77 00:04:13,370 --> 00:04:16,399 launched the first video phone technology. 78 00:04:16,630 --> 00:04:21,440 And it took 5550 years to actually scale that. 79 00:04:21,450 --> 00:04:23,740 But it was a time of real innovation. 80 00:04:23,790 --> 00:04:28,540 TOEFL inception was a product of a few American universities 81 00:04:28,550 --> 00:04:32,890 recognizing that with increased international student flows to 82 00:04:32,900 --> 00:04:37,070 top American universities, they needed a more coherent way of 83 00:04:37,080 --> 00:04:40,550 measuring English proficiency to ensure that incoming students 84 00:04:40,560 --> 00:04:42,730 would be able to thrive in academic settings. 85 00:04:42,740 --> 00:04:46,250 And so TOEFL was actually the product of universities. 86 00:04:46,260 --> 00:04:48,970 Universities got together and created it to meet their needs. 87 00:04:48,980 --> 00:04:52,980 So we've been around for 60 years, and over the course of 88 00:04:52,990 --> 00:04:56,330 that 60 years, it's been a perpetual innovation. 89 00:04:56,340 --> 00:05:00,060 And we have made some exciting changes that will kick in next 90 00:05:00,070 --> 00:05:03,470 year that we can discuss in a bit, But that's a little bit of 91 00:05:03,480 --> 00:05:05,990 the history behind the TOEFL exam. 92 00:05:06,000 --> 00:05:09,640 Fantastic and in this case here, just to give you a little more 93 00:05:09,650 --> 00:05:11,620 of a background about the podcast itself. 94 00:05:11,630 --> 00:05:13,880 So podcast is called studying law around the world. 95 00:05:13,890 --> 00:05:18,350 And it happens that a lot of our listenership are in in the 96 00:05:18,360 --> 00:05:22,500 global South or are in Canada and in a lot of them come from 97 00:05:22,510 --> 00:05:24,940 countries where English was not the first language. 98 00:05:25,010 --> 00:05:28,550 So that makes it that, you know, tough always is one of the tests 99 00:05:28,560 --> 00:05:31,960 that got used should be able to access that law school in 100 00:05:31,970 --> 00:05:34,600 another country. Usually people have already a 101 00:05:34,610 --> 00:05:37,250 law degree from from their country of origin and then 102 00:05:37,260 --> 00:05:40,220 they're either looking into a pathway for licensing and that 103 00:05:40,230 --> 00:05:43,660 could be, you know, an LLM usually in connection to a 104 00:05:43,670 --> 00:05:45,430 university North America as well. 105 00:05:45,500 --> 00:05:50,710 So many students might weigh the different exams available and in 106 00:05:50,720 --> 00:05:52,910 the different possibilities for them here. 107 00:05:52,980 --> 00:05:55,990 And I wanted to ask if you could tell me a little bit about what 108 00:05:56,000 --> 00:05:58,980 sets TOFU apart from other tests in the market? 109 00:05:59,040 --> 00:06:02,390 Yeah, that's a great question. And Claudio, I will begin my 110 00:06:02,400 --> 00:06:05,050 answer by noting that I failed to answer one of your core 111 00:06:05,060 --> 00:06:08,550 questions just 45 seconds ago and that is the TOEFL test, 112 00:06:08,620 --> 00:06:13,210 reading, writing, speaking and listening, the four core English 113 00:06:13,220 --> 00:06:16,570 skills. And that is a nice segue into 114 00:06:16,580 --> 00:06:21,490 what sets TOEFL apart. So TOEFL is a measure of English 115 00:06:21,570 --> 00:06:25,090 in academic environments. That's been its purpose for six 116 00:06:25,100 --> 00:06:28,450 decades. And starting in January, we are 117 00:06:28,460 --> 00:06:31,890 adding some more modernized language to the exam. 118 00:06:31,940 --> 00:06:36,330 So the exam will continue to be a test of English proficiency in 119 00:06:36,400 --> 00:06:39,850 academic settings, but we're going to modernize it by testing 120 00:06:39,860 --> 00:06:42,910 a few new things. To give you one example, we hear 121 00:06:42,920 --> 00:06:46,650 from a lot of institutions that accept TOEFL that they're 122 00:06:46,740 --> 00:06:50,000 increasingly curious about students ability to communicate 123 00:06:50,010 --> 00:06:53,310 with peers, not just their ability to read textbooks and 124 00:06:53,320 --> 00:06:56,020 listen to a lecture. But as group and experiential 125 00:06:56,030 --> 00:06:59,250 learning grows more importance, we're trying to capture a 126 00:06:59,260 --> 00:07:03,300 broader swath of English that's used in modern learning 127 00:07:03,310 --> 00:07:06,740 environments. And as it relates to lawyers in 128 00:07:06,750 --> 00:07:11,240 particular, I suppose in an ideal world, TOEFL would test 129 00:07:11,250 --> 00:07:15,260 terms like promissory estoppel and things of that nature. 130 00:07:15,270 --> 00:07:17,320 But it is a generalist exam, right? 131 00:07:17,330 --> 00:07:21,480 It measures your ability to understand general English and 132 00:07:21,490 --> 00:07:25,320 academic environment. And one reason why I'm excited 133 00:07:25,330 --> 00:07:30,240 about the introduction of more modernized English language is 134 00:07:30,250 --> 00:07:33,570 twofold. 1 you mentioned you have a lot of learners in the 135 00:07:33,580 --> 00:07:35,960 global S. Many students who are coming 136 00:07:35,970 --> 00:07:39,970 from the South have different education backgrounds and 137 00:07:39,980 --> 00:07:43,310 different learning experiences than students who have come from 138 00:07:43,320 --> 00:07:46,090 other countries that have been the more traditional sending 139 00:07:46,100 --> 00:07:47,740 countries for international students. 140 00:07:47,750 --> 00:07:50,550 So part of these updates to the exam are intended to ensure that 141 00:07:50,560 --> 00:07:52,390 everyone on a level playing fields. 142 00:07:52,400 --> 00:07:55,470 And the second thing I would say too, because we're now measuring 143 00:07:55,480 --> 00:07:59,250 A broader swath of English, the skills that it takes to succeed 144 00:07:59,260 --> 00:08:03,590 as an attorney wherever you are, extend beyond the case law book 145 00:08:03,600 --> 00:08:06,830 and the ability to read a statute in the corporate 146 00:08:06,840 --> 00:08:09,740 environment or client facing invites, let's say transactional 147 00:08:09,750 --> 00:08:12,710 environment, the ability to speak to clients, whether 148 00:08:12,720 --> 00:08:16,440 they're a homeowner or corporation in plain simple 149 00:08:16,450 --> 00:08:19,790 English is extremely valuable. And if you're a litigator, the 150 00:08:19,800 --> 00:08:23,180 ability to communicate not with a jury, but with judges who are 151 00:08:23,190 --> 00:08:25,200 also generalists is important. So. 152 00:08:25,240 --> 00:08:29,000 So in sum, we're trying to capture English in an academic 153 00:08:29,010 --> 00:08:31,840 setting, but we're also trying to measure a student's ability 154 00:08:31,850 --> 00:08:35,400 to communicate with others in different environments. 155 00:08:35,450 --> 00:08:38,600 That's fantastic. I cannot think of a better way 156 00:08:38,610 --> 00:08:41,700 to do that. When I'm thinking that really 157 00:08:41,710 --> 00:08:44,960 the like one of the biggest and most important parts of the 158 00:08:44,970 --> 00:08:47,600 student experience is really that that possibility of 159 00:08:47,610 --> 00:08:50,660 building a network of interacting with peers and 160 00:08:50,670 --> 00:08:52,660 being, you know, courts ready in a way. 161 00:08:52,670 --> 00:08:56,260 But I really appreciate that that's something that is looked 162 00:08:56,270 --> 00:09:00,350 at because I cannot even, you know, stage how, how important 163 00:09:00,360 --> 00:09:04,050 that has been for my story to really be interacting with peers 164 00:09:04,060 --> 00:09:06,970 should really be with people in the classroom and really 165 00:09:06,980 --> 00:09:10,100 exchanging those experiences. So I'm, I'm just very happy that 166 00:09:10,110 --> 00:09:12,120 the, the tofu is looking at that. 167 00:09:12,210 --> 00:09:15,760 And I took the top for myself last year to getting to my LM at 168 00:09:15,770 --> 00:09:19,460 the University of Toronto. So now I saw that ETS wrote out 169 00:09:19,470 --> 00:09:22,400 a few different things, including in-house proctors, 170 00:09:22,410 --> 00:09:26,360 they identity checks, simple, simpler check in for the home 171 00:09:26,370 --> 00:09:28,140 edition. And that's exciting to know. 172 00:09:28,210 --> 00:09:30,810 I'm always happy to see when companies are improving 173 00:09:30,820 --> 00:09:32,690 continuously. And I'd love to hear if there 174 00:09:32,700 --> 00:09:35,730 is, you know, feedback so far for these improvements. 175 00:09:35,740 --> 00:09:38,630 And I know that a lot of new things are coming up as well. 176 00:09:38,640 --> 00:09:40,550 So could you tell us a little more about those? 177 00:09:40,640 --> 00:09:43,150 Yeah, yeah, of course. By the way, I am curious. 178 00:09:43,200 --> 00:09:46,450 Let me talk about the updates. My experience that first year in 179 00:09:46,460 --> 00:09:49,170 in law school was that I had to learn an entirely different 180 00:09:49,180 --> 00:09:52,700 language because particularly English common law where there's 181 00:09:52,710 --> 00:09:56,430 a lot of parallels in Canada and US all, it's all Latin and 182 00:09:56,440 --> 00:09:59,270 French origin, which was profoundly frustrating. 183 00:09:59,280 --> 00:10:01,470 Is that been your experience and that I promise I'll answer the 184 00:10:01,480 --> 00:10:02,810 question. So it's all good, Yeah. 185 00:10:02,820 --> 00:10:06,710 No, in reality, really is. It's interesting because a lot 186 00:10:06,720 --> 00:10:09,630 of people who will be, you know, telling you how to prepare 187 00:10:09,640 --> 00:10:12,080 should take the most out of the experience of the course. 188 00:10:12,090 --> 00:10:15,130 We'll, we'll definitely advise you to, you know, keep an eye 189 00:10:15,140 --> 00:10:18,050 out for, for just improving your English in general. 190 00:10:18,060 --> 00:10:21,610 And then classes will do well. And, and honestly, that was a 191 00:10:21,620 --> 00:10:23,430 good advice. But definitely there's a lot of 192 00:10:23,440 --> 00:10:26,610 new words to learn and a lot of new, you know, Latin and French 193 00:10:26,620 --> 00:10:29,850 references should be caught on. And it's even interesting for 194 00:10:29,860 --> 00:10:32,310 people who know the language. I have a few classmates who 195 00:10:32,320 --> 00:10:35,640 speak French, but the, the French references in law are 196 00:10:35,650 --> 00:10:38,690 like old French. So the words don't even make 197 00:10:38,700 --> 00:10:41,510 sense if they just hear, you know, the the expressions right 198 00:10:41,520 --> 00:10:44,870 now, they're not really connecting to what those would 199 00:10:44,880 --> 00:10:48,240 mean in, in knowing French of 25th 2020. 200 00:10:48,250 --> 00:10:51,900 So it's been really interesting to see that that, yeah, language 201 00:10:51,910 --> 00:10:54,200 learning aspect of it. Yeah, yeah. 202 00:10:54,250 --> 00:10:59,340 Even at the fundamental bit of litigation, plaintiff is, I 203 00:10:59,350 --> 00:11:02,230 think that's French origin and defendant is more of an 204 00:11:02,490 --> 00:11:04,660 Anglo-Saxon. The thing that comes out of the 205 00:11:04,670 --> 00:11:07,330 back of your throat, you could call it something different. 206 00:11:07,340 --> 00:11:08,830 Anyway, Claudio, I'm scouring the question. 207 00:11:08,840 --> 00:11:11,860 So the TOEFL updates were relevant to the conversation. 208 00:11:11,870 --> 00:11:12,840 You mentioned a couple of things. 209 00:11:12,850 --> 00:11:15,560 So I would bucket the changes into two categories. 210 00:11:15,650 --> 00:11:18,740 Category one is the content and flow of the exam itself. 211 00:11:18,750 --> 00:11:22,770 So starting in January, TOEFL has will have modernized English 212 00:11:22,780 --> 00:11:26,030 language content, including, as I referenced, just to use one 213 00:11:26,040 --> 00:11:28,580 example of the ability to communicate with peers and 214 00:11:28,590 --> 00:11:32,310 engage in a group conversation. We're also adding multi stage 215 00:11:32,320 --> 00:11:34,600 adaptivity. Now that's different from the 216 00:11:34,610 --> 00:11:37,010 test today, which is purely linear. 217 00:11:37,060 --> 00:11:40,870 Under the modernized TOEFL. Starting in January, the reading 218 00:11:40,880 --> 00:11:43,910 and listening sections will adapt midway through each 219 00:11:43,920 --> 00:11:46,830 section to each learner's proficiency level. 220 00:11:47,000 --> 00:11:50,040 And that way they're not beating their head against a wall with 221 00:11:50,050 --> 00:11:52,050 excessively difficult or easy questions. 222 00:11:52,060 --> 00:11:53,770 And the second part of that section. 223 00:11:53,780 --> 00:11:57,170 So it'll make it more efficient and allow us to derive a more 224 00:11:57,180 --> 00:11:59,800 nuanced understanding of English proficiency. 225 00:11:59,870 --> 00:12:02,920 Lastly, we're going to guarantee a 72 hour turn around, which is 226 00:12:02,930 --> 00:12:05,380 a couple days faster than we're giving scores back today. 227 00:12:05,390 --> 00:12:07,160 For some students, it's not that big a deal. 228 00:12:07,170 --> 00:12:11,600 For others, especially as a countries and I am in the US and 229 00:12:11,610 --> 00:12:14,220 it has been a flurry of daily changes. 230 00:12:14,270 --> 00:12:16,680 Students are having to make decisions in much faster 231 00:12:16,690 --> 00:12:18,600 fashion. So we're trying to help deliver 232 00:12:18,610 --> 00:12:21,780 scores faster. So that's on the test content 233 00:12:21,790 --> 00:12:24,270 side today. What we have done is we've also 234 00:12:24,330 --> 00:12:29,160 updated our home edition exam. You referenced a couple of the 235 00:12:29,170 --> 00:12:32,720 updates we've made there to give you 1 interesting statistic. 236 00:12:32,770 --> 00:12:38,490 In Bangladesh and Pakistan, as of 2023, about 10% of test 237 00:12:38,500 --> 00:12:41,510 takers took our exam in the at home environments. 238 00:12:41,520 --> 00:12:45,430 But last year that number rose to 40% in both countries. 239 00:12:45,440 --> 00:12:50,730 And that's pretty representative of what we see in South Asia and 240 00:12:50,740 --> 00:12:54,430 Latin America and East Asia. There remains in Europe a 241 00:12:54,440 --> 00:12:57,130 preference for the testing centre environment, but that's 242 00:12:57,140 --> 00:13:00,190 changing so that students are really voting with their feet 243 00:13:00,200 --> 00:13:03,740 and the at home test is becoming more and more a part of students 244 00:13:03,750 --> 00:13:07,340 expectations. So I won't give you too long 245 00:13:07,350 --> 00:13:10,710 winded explanation, but in at home testing, there's there's 246 00:13:10,720 --> 00:13:14,200 two different models. Money is what we call record and 247 00:13:14,210 --> 00:13:18,480 review where you log in to the testing environment and you're 248 00:13:18,490 --> 00:13:23,260 just guided by a series of instructions and some mix of AI. 249 00:13:23,330 --> 00:13:26,670 The other one is like having a live human Proctor in the room. 250 00:13:26,680 --> 00:13:29,400 And that's what we offer. So when you take the exam, 251 00:13:29,410 --> 00:13:31,920 you've got a person there. And one of the improvements 252 00:13:31,930 --> 00:13:35,180 we've made to the exam is we brought our proctors in house. 253 00:13:35,190 --> 00:13:38,700 So they're now total employees. We can keep a closer eye on 254 00:13:38,710 --> 00:13:41,300 them, manage them. We manage them on not just their 255 00:13:41,310 --> 00:13:44,200 ability to catch security infractions, but also are they 256 00:13:44,210 --> 00:13:45,830 displaying empathy to the test taker? 257 00:13:45,840 --> 00:13:50,130 Because that's really important. And those proctors are really 258 00:13:50,140 --> 00:13:53,370 key to the unique nature of our at Home exam. 259 00:13:53,380 --> 00:13:56,330 And the other thing we've done is we've really streamlined the 260 00:13:56,380 --> 00:13:58,500 process. We built the at Home exam in 261 00:13:58,510 --> 00:14:02,230 2020 on the heels of COVID and we built something that we're 262 00:14:02,240 --> 00:14:05,250 very proud of, but we recognize the need to make it more of a 263 00:14:05,260 --> 00:14:08,810 digital native experience. So now the check in is much 264 00:14:08,820 --> 00:14:11,190 faster, the interface is much cleaner. 265 00:14:11,200 --> 00:14:14,050 It's just a much better experience for those who choose 266 00:14:14,060 --> 00:14:16,230 to take the test. At home that's amazing, 267 00:14:16,240 --> 00:14:20,050 fantastic. And, and all of this in mind, I 268 00:14:20,060 --> 00:14:24,930 saw that as part of the, the changes to January 2026 going to 269 00:14:24,940 --> 00:14:27,510 be, you know, beyond the adaptive things, there's also 270 00:14:27,520 --> 00:14:32,930 going to be a one to six band linked to the common European 271 00:14:32,940 --> 00:14:35,910 framework. And also I was curious about how 272 00:14:35,920 --> 00:14:39,430 would that, you know, those changes also help the admissions 273 00:14:39,440 --> 00:14:42,150 teams compare candidates. As you mentioned, you're the 274 00:14:42,160 --> 00:14:45,550 person usually interacting with the users on the other end. 275 00:14:45,560 --> 00:14:47,170 So the universities and all of that. 276 00:14:47,260 --> 00:14:50,470 Does that also help the admissions teams when they are 277 00:14:50,540 --> 00:14:54,010 trying to compare candidates? Yeah, that's a great question 278 00:14:54,020 --> 00:14:57,920 and I'm digging myself 5 podcast points for failing to mention 279 00:14:57,930 --> 00:15:00,430 that in my long winded harangue earlier. 280 00:15:00,440 --> 00:15:05,900 So yes, TOFU is introducing A1 to 6 score scale and half point 281 00:15:05,910 --> 00:15:10,020 increments in January as well. And before we release this 282 00:15:10,030 --> 00:15:14,300 publicly, I've been speaking for several months with focus groups 283 00:15:14,350 --> 00:15:19,040 of universities and various score users to make sure that 284 00:15:19,050 --> 00:15:21,260 they were on board with this change. 285 00:15:21,270 --> 00:15:23,000 And there's a lot of excitement about it. 286 00:15:23,070 --> 00:15:26,710 And the reason we're updating the TOEFL score scale is 287 00:15:26,720 --> 00:15:29,040 threefold. So the first is you referenced, 288 00:15:29,050 --> 00:15:34,500 we're drawing a more direct and intuitive link to the common 289 00:15:34,510 --> 00:15:38,300 European framework is the C for proficiency levels were released 290 00:15:38,310 --> 00:15:42,810 in 2001 as I referenced before TOEFL was launched in 1964. 291 00:15:42,860 --> 00:15:45,810 So for a long time TOEFL has existed as this thing on the 292 00:15:45,820 --> 00:15:48,590 side that had its own unique secret sauce. 293 00:15:48,600 --> 00:15:52,730 And we recognize that there's a need to align with students 294 00:15:52,740 --> 00:15:55,210 expectations. And so that's a second thing, 295 00:15:55,260 --> 00:15:58,850 we're drawing a more clear link to server and this serves a lot 296 00:15:58,860 --> 00:16:03,130 of students, many of whom their English training followed those 297 00:16:03,140 --> 00:16:06,110 Seifer tracks from 1 to 8 two and so forth. 298 00:16:06,180 --> 00:16:09,570 So students will now be able to draw a cleaner connection 299 00:16:09,580 --> 00:16:12,910 between prior learning and assessments and TOEFL. 300 00:16:12,980 --> 00:16:17,790 And the third thing is, if you look at a chart of TOEFL scores 301 00:16:17,800 --> 00:16:22,120 by section, the score that you need to obtain today on a zero 302 00:16:22,130 --> 00:16:27,480 to 30 scale to meet, let's use AC1 level of proficiency as an 303 00:16:27,490 --> 00:16:29,440 example. It's all over the place. 304 00:16:29,450 --> 00:16:32,750 It's a 25 for this section. It's a 24 for this. 305 00:16:32,760 --> 00:16:36,180 It's a 22 for this one. And this causes unnecessary 306 00:16:36,190 --> 00:16:39,580 confusion for students as well as universities. 307 00:16:39,650 --> 00:16:42,100 You know, especially with a high degree of turnover and 308 00:16:42,110 --> 00:16:45,120 admissions offices, you have a lot of new folks coming in. 309 00:16:45,950 --> 00:16:50,000 TOEFL is an important part of the admissions process, but it's 310 00:16:50,010 --> 00:16:53,020 just one part. And so if we can make this one 311 00:16:53,030 --> 00:16:57,170 part a little simpler, a lot of institutions that are excited 312 00:16:57,180 --> 00:16:59,550 about this. So the last thing we're doing is 313 00:16:59,560 --> 00:17:03,270 starting in January, test takers will begin to receive a score on 314 00:17:03,280 --> 00:17:05,750 the one to six scale. But when we send their score 315 00:17:05,760 --> 00:17:09,450 report to institutions, the institution will see the one to 316 00:17:09,460 --> 00:17:13,230 six score as well as a comparable score on the current 317 00:17:13,240 --> 00:17:15,030 scale. And we're going to do this for 318 00:17:15,040 --> 00:17:18,990 two years to give everyone time to grow accustomed to the 319 00:17:19,000 --> 00:17:20,990 updated scale. So yeah, universities are 320 00:17:21,000 --> 00:17:23,230 excited about it. It's going to be a little bit of 321 00:17:23,240 --> 00:17:25,770 a transition period as they update their websites to 322 00:17:25,780 --> 00:17:28,990 communicate to test takers what we think that once all 323 00:17:29,000 --> 00:17:33,180 stakeholders gain comfort, it's going to be much simpler and 324 00:17:33,230 --> 00:17:35,240 much more intuitive. Score scale. 325 00:17:35,310 --> 00:17:38,300 That's amazing, fantastic. And then on the end of students, 326 00:17:38,310 --> 00:17:41,740 you had just mentioned that students are very excited 327 00:17:41,750 --> 00:17:45,000 because you know, in in some circumstances and depending on 328 00:17:45,010 --> 00:17:48,500 which country you are you're taking the test from or coming 329 00:17:48,510 --> 00:17:52,720 from, there's really this need to make decisions quickly. 330 00:17:53,110 --> 00:17:56,020 As you know, all these changes are coming up, you know, the 72 331 00:17:56,030 --> 00:17:58,760 hours. I've also seen something that if 332 00:17:58,770 --> 00:18:01,520 you're taking it in person in a test centre, there is some kind 333 00:18:01,530 --> 00:18:04,790 of upgrade to the headphones. So I'm wondering if there is 334 00:18:04,800 --> 00:18:07,740 any, you know, change specifically there that students 335 00:18:07,750 --> 00:18:11,310 are waiting for the most and what's what, what have you heard 336 00:18:11,320 --> 00:18:13,230 in your team about? That as well. 337 00:18:13,300 --> 00:18:16,830 That's a great question. You know, we, we survey our 338 00:18:16,840 --> 00:18:21,150 students just mercilessly and we're always mindful of making 339 00:18:21,160 --> 00:18:24,270 sure we're not over surveying them because you know, who wants 340 00:18:24,280 --> 00:18:26,070 to talk to TOEFL after they've taken it? 341 00:18:26,120 --> 00:18:28,490 But we take those responses really seriously. 342 00:18:28,500 --> 00:18:33,300 And over the past few years, one of the most common criticisms of 343 00:18:33,310 --> 00:18:37,530 the test centre experience is the level of noise in the 344 00:18:37,540 --> 00:18:41,230 testing environment. That's a very fair criticism. 345 00:18:41,900 --> 00:18:45,090 In a perfect world, everyone would be able to take their exam 346 00:18:45,100 --> 00:18:48,770 in an individual hotel suite, but logistics constraints 347 00:18:48,780 --> 00:18:51,500 prevent us from doing so. So we are we are launching 348 00:18:51,510 --> 00:18:57,440 updated headphones that allow students to take the exam with 349 00:18:57,450 --> 00:19:00,200 less interruption. There's going to be less noise 350 00:19:00,210 --> 00:19:03,140 in the test environment that allow them to focus better at 351 00:19:03,150 --> 00:19:05,320 the test centre. So that's something we're 352 00:19:05,330 --> 00:19:08,920 excited about. I would say too, we had piloted 353 00:19:08,930 --> 00:19:13,660 the new home edition experience in several countries this spring 354 00:19:13,670 --> 00:19:17,260 and one of the exciting things is we've reduced the amount of 355 00:19:17,310 --> 00:19:20,560 technical debt students have to incur to take the exam. 356 00:19:20,610 --> 00:19:23,360 The check in process is now three times faster. 357 00:19:23,440 --> 00:19:26,370 You can complete some of the check in components even before 358 00:19:26,380 --> 00:19:29,030 test day because we want to make sure that whether you're taking 359 00:19:29,040 --> 00:19:32,090 it in a test centre or home edition, the experience feels 360 00:19:32,100 --> 00:19:36,140 very similar and you're spending your time and effort displaying 361 00:19:36,150 --> 00:19:39,750 your English proficiency, not your ability to function in a 362 00:19:39,760 --> 00:19:44,150 noisy environment or log into a complicated at home exam. 363 00:19:44,160 --> 00:19:47,030 So that's a common thread. It's just making the testing 364 00:19:47,040 --> 00:19:50,570 environment more pleasant, more simpler, and the check in more 365 00:19:50,580 --> 00:19:52,470 efficient. So that's so great, that's so 366 00:19:52,480 --> 00:19:55,070 good. So application season is about 367 00:19:55,080 --> 00:19:57,430 to start. People who are at least here for 368 00:19:57,440 --> 00:20:00,790 Canada, it's as a new semester comes around in school and 369 00:20:00,800 --> 00:20:03,600 there's also the new. Application season coming in so 370 00:20:03,610 --> 00:20:06,000 people can send in their applications and all of that. 371 00:20:06,010 --> 00:20:09,060 And I'm curious of what you would recommend for someone 372 00:20:09,070 --> 00:20:11,140 booking a test this upcoming month. 373 00:20:11,210 --> 00:20:14,180 What kind of resources would you point them to 1st? 374 00:20:14,250 --> 00:20:17,100 And you know where they can maybe follow the latest updates 375 00:20:17,110 --> 00:20:19,870 if they want to know a little more about how to get ready. 376 00:20:19,940 --> 00:20:22,010 Absolutely. Well for those that are taking 377 00:20:22,020 --> 00:20:26,160 the test in the short term, if you go to our website, we have a 378 00:20:26,170 --> 00:20:31,200 host of resources that will help you get acclimated to the exam. 379 00:20:31,210 --> 00:20:35,640 From full length practice tests to online section specific 380 00:20:35,650 --> 00:20:38,380 practice. You can also tell us how much 381 00:20:38,390 --> 00:20:41,770 time you have study and pull up study guides based on the 382 00:20:41,780 --> 00:20:45,550 duration of prep time you have. I think those are really helpful 383 00:20:45,600 --> 00:20:48,850 for the updated version of thing I'm starting in January, we've 384 00:20:48,860 --> 00:20:52,390 started to release a series of resources and we'll have much 385 00:20:52,400 --> 00:20:55,570 more in August. So you can follow us on your 386 00:20:55,580 --> 00:20:59,320 social media of choice at TOEFL or check out the website. 387 00:20:59,330 --> 00:21:02,560 But the last note I would get to is gaming. 388 00:21:02,570 --> 00:21:05,550 Comfort with the format is really valuable because then 389 00:21:05,560 --> 00:21:08,210 again, you're not sweating the format on test day. 390 00:21:08,280 --> 00:21:11,320 You're just showing us how great your English skills are. 391 00:21:11,370 --> 00:21:14,730 So to the extent that you can and these resources are all 392 00:21:14,740 --> 00:21:17,200 available for free if you want to really understand what the 393 00:21:17,210 --> 00:21:19,950 test is, how it functions, that's all available on our 394 00:21:19,960 --> 00:21:21,640 website and I would encourage folks to check. 395 00:21:21,650 --> 00:21:24,070 That out fantastic. Well, I really appreciate it. 396 00:21:24,080 --> 00:21:28,080 It's not every episode that we talk about admissions and all of 397 00:21:28,090 --> 00:21:31,430 that that we have the chance to speak to a former lawyer in that 398 00:21:31,440 --> 00:21:33,450 process. So it's it's just a big 399 00:21:33,460 --> 00:21:35,070 satisfaction to have you here today. 400 00:21:35,080 --> 00:21:37,790 Thank you so much for taking the time and thank you all for 401 00:21:37,800 --> 00:21:40,230 tuning into today's episode. Thanks so much, Claudio. 402 00:21:40,240 --> 00:21:42,120 Every every now and then I think about getting back in the 403 00:21:42,130 --> 00:21:43,850 profession. So maybe someday I'll work for a 404 00:21:43,860 --> 00:21:45,310 listener. So thank you so much. 405 00:21:45,320 --> 00:21:52,640 This is a lot of fun. Thanks for listening and we'll 406 00:21:52,650 --> 00:21:55,770 see you on the next episode. This episode was sponsored by 407 00:21:55,780 --> 00:21:57,970 Contender. Checking out add 408 00:21:57,980 --> 00:22:00,070 contenderllc.com.