1 00:00:12,880 --> 00:00:14,890 Welcome to Studying Law Around the World. 2 00:00:15,020 --> 00:00:17,870 I'm Claudio Claus. In each episode, I talk with 3 00:00:17,880 --> 00:00:20,850 lawyers, law students, and professors from different parts 4 00:00:20,860 --> 00:00:24,730 of the world to talk about legal education, careers, and what the 5 00:00:24,740 --> 00:00:26,420 profession looks like in real life. 6 00:00:26,430 --> 00:00:29,470 We talk about the hard parts, the surprises, and the decisions 7 00:00:29,480 --> 00:00:32,270 that shaped their paths. Whether you're planning to study 8 00:00:32,280 --> 00:00:35,520 abroad, thinking about working in another legal system, or just 9 00:00:35,530 --> 00:00:39,650 curious about how law works around the world, this podcast 10 00:00:39,660 --> 00:00:44,330 is for you. Should they have the opportunity 11 00:00:44,340 --> 00:00:48,170 to interview Dina Brewer, who is an alum of Princeton and Harvard 12 00:00:48,180 --> 00:00:50,850 Law? She has an incredible experience 13 00:00:50,920 --> 00:00:55,430 in her career that has swung through New York, London, and 14 00:00:55,700 --> 00:00:57,410 everywhere. Incredible community. 15 00:00:57,450 --> 00:01:00,830 She has led her own firm now for over 15 years. 16 00:01:00,900 --> 00:01:04,050 So I just wanted to thank you so much for taking the time to join 17 00:01:04,060 --> 00:01:05,310 me in the podcast today. Do you know? 18 00:01:06,090 --> 00:01:08,680 Well, thank you very much for letting me be here. 19 00:01:08,730 --> 00:01:11,740 I wouldn't be here without the support of tons of mentors 20 00:01:11,750 --> 00:01:14,720 before me, so anything I can provide on a going forward basis 21 00:01:14,730 --> 00:01:16,780 is a way to pay it forward. Thanks for having. 22 00:01:16,790 --> 00:01:19,540 Me, I really appreciate it. Thank you so much. 23 00:01:19,630 --> 00:01:23,380 And and as we talked briefly, usually my listenership here in 24 00:01:23,390 --> 00:01:26,740 the podcast, early career professionals, people getting 25 00:01:26,750 --> 00:01:31,640 out of law school right now and always liked to ask my, my 26 00:01:31,650 --> 00:01:34,640 guests here a little bit about, you know, their law school 27 00:01:34,650 --> 00:01:36,440 experience. If they have a few favorite 28 00:01:36,450 --> 00:01:40,180 memories that they can recall, is is that something that comes 29 00:01:40,190 --> 00:01:42,520 to mind here every once in a while? 30 00:01:43,860 --> 00:01:45,820 Absolutely. I mean, I was pretty honored to 31 00:01:45,830 --> 00:01:47,900 go to Harvard Law. My parents were both immigrants 32 00:01:47,910 --> 00:01:50,420 to the United States. I'd never heard of Harvard when, 33 00:01:50,430 --> 00:01:53,440 you know, growing up. And so when I got there, it kind 34 00:01:53,450 --> 00:01:56,620 of did feel like you were in the movies, like you got there the 35 00:01:56,630 --> 00:01:59,270 first day of class and they went through the Socratic method and 36 00:01:59,280 --> 00:02:01,580 they go at the time, my name was Dina Taylor. 37 00:02:01,590 --> 00:02:04,730 They said, Miss Taylor, can you state the facts of whatever 38 00:02:04,740 --> 00:02:06,720 particular case it was? And and you're really on the 39 00:02:06,730 --> 00:02:09,100 spot. And I have to say, I love that. 40 00:02:09,190 --> 00:02:14,400 I absolutely loved how law school taught you to think in a 41 00:02:14,410 --> 00:02:18,200 decision tree manner, where if you change the facts in this one 42 00:02:18,210 --> 00:02:22,200 small way, has that impact your decisions further, further down. 43 00:02:22,930 --> 00:02:26,410 Best memories from law school? I took a class from Alan 44 00:02:26,420 --> 00:02:29,870 Dershowitz is pretty well known there and he taught a class on 45 00:02:29,880 --> 00:02:33,190 ethics and it was, you know, it was rather amusing, quite 46 00:02:33,200 --> 00:02:35,690 honestly, going through all of his past cases. 47 00:02:36,740 --> 00:02:39,220 I took some classes at the B school at Harvard Business 48 00:02:39,230 --> 00:02:40,990 School. I think honestly one of the best 49 00:02:41,000 --> 00:02:43,890 piece of advice I can give for people who are currently in law 50 00:02:43,900 --> 00:02:48,070 school is make sure you take a class at a sister school within 51 00:02:48,080 --> 00:02:51,250 your university. I took a class on analysis of 52 00:02:51,260 --> 00:02:55,580 corporate financial reports and it has absolutely been one of 53 00:02:55,590 --> 00:02:58,890 the most helpful classes for doing venture law and going 54 00:02:58,900 --> 00:03:01,970 forward basis. And then finally, I played poker 55 00:03:01,980 --> 00:03:05,310 every week with my study group, which is which was big in law 56 00:03:05,320 --> 00:03:10,420 school and I love that as well. And I'd love to hear a little 57 00:03:10,430 --> 00:03:14,290 bit more about your careers here and maybe even what drew you to 58 00:03:14,300 --> 00:03:18,090 venture capital to start up law and and even how your career 59 00:03:18,100 --> 00:03:21,540 evolved going out of law school. Sure. 60 00:03:21,590 --> 00:03:24,840 So when I graduated from law school, I worked on 1st, I was a 61 00:03:24,850 --> 00:03:28,680 clerk for a judge out in the in California and on the District 62 00:03:28,690 --> 00:03:31,560 Court and after that went to Davis Polk and Wardwell, which 63 00:03:31,570 --> 00:03:33,520 is a large New York City law firm. 64 00:03:33,570 --> 00:03:38,820 I was in the M and A and the securities groups and when I was 65 00:03:38,830 --> 00:03:44,280 there and I spent seven years, 877 to 9 years at Davis Polk and 66 00:03:44,290 --> 00:03:46,040 partly in New York and then in London. 67 00:03:46,390 --> 00:03:51,380 And the main client that I was helping out with was Morgan 68 00:03:51,390 --> 00:03:56,320 Stanley Private Equity Group. So I got to see a ton of deals 69 00:03:56,530 --> 00:03:58,580 where Morgan Stanley was investing anywhere from 70 00:03:58,590 --> 00:04:02,360 1,000,000 to $100 million in a privately held company with the 71 00:04:02,370 --> 00:04:06,290 hope that they would turn it around and then either IPO it or 72 00:04:06,300 --> 00:04:09,350 sell it. I absolutely went initially to 73 00:04:09,360 --> 00:04:12,650 Davis Hulk because I had loans and I needed, you know, it was 74 00:04:12,660 --> 00:04:15,650 the easiest place to make the most amount of money, but I 75 00:04:15,660 --> 00:04:18,250 loved it. I thought the lawyers were 76 00:04:18,260 --> 00:04:20,769 really supportive of junior lawyers there. 77 00:04:20,779 --> 00:04:25,010 And I was able to do quite a bit and learned how to be a very 78 00:04:25,080 --> 00:04:27,350 precise lawyer. Like you can't make mistakes at 79 00:04:27,360 --> 00:04:29,270 a large law firm. You just, you know, their 80 00:04:29,280 --> 00:04:32,570 clients, they won't accept it. And so you really get trained 81 00:04:32,580 --> 00:04:37,310 quite well at, at a large firm. And I enjoyed both the New York 82 00:04:37,320 --> 00:04:39,670 office and the London office, mainly because the people at 83 00:04:39,680 --> 00:04:42,730 Davis Polk were truly fantastic. Amazing. 84 00:04:42,800 --> 00:04:46,970 And, and in this venture capital and startup world, I wouldn't 85 00:04:46,980 --> 00:04:49,570 you ask you if you could share it, What are some of the key 86 00:04:49,580 --> 00:04:52,710 skills and experiences that helped you choose establish 87 00:04:52,720 --> 00:04:55,530 yourself in the field? So I think there's a difference 88 00:04:55,540 --> 00:04:58,390 between when you're starting out and I've been doing this now for 89 00:04:58,400 --> 00:05:01,770 3540 years. So if I was, if I was talking 90 00:05:01,780 --> 00:05:04,710 for someone who's in the first three or four years, the main 91 00:05:04,720 --> 00:05:07,990 thing is to remember where you are in the big picture. 92 00:05:08,040 --> 00:05:13,310 Even if you're being asked to do XYZ on a deal, get a hold of the 93 00:05:13,320 --> 00:05:15,450 term sheet. The term sheet is in venture 94 00:05:15,460 --> 00:05:17,310 capital. The term sheet is going to be 95 00:05:17,320 --> 00:05:19,610 assuming you're representing either the investor or the 96 00:05:19,620 --> 00:05:21,730 company. The term sheet of any deal is 97 00:05:21,740 --> 00:05:24,620 going to be what is governing the deal on a going forward 98 00:05:24,630 --> 00:05:28,470 basis. And you have to understand the 99 00:05:28,560 --> 00:05:34,320 cash flow and the cash burn and the idea of where that company 100 00:05:34,330 --> 00:05:37,480 is in its life cycle and how you can support the client. 101 00:05:37,590 --> 00:05:42,370 As a junior lawyer, if you get to understand the larger picture 102 00:05:42,380 --> 00:05:46,180 first, you'll probably ask better questions when you get 103 00:05:46,190 --> 00:05:47,920 into when you get. The other thing I would say is 104 00:05:47,930 --> 00:05:52,020 as a junior lawyer is try to get into as many of the meetings 105 00:05:52,030 --> 00:05:55,680 with the principals as possible. If your head partner has a 106 00:05:55,690 --> 00:05:57,800 meeting, see if you can just tag along. 107 00:05:57,810 --> 00:06:00,650 And you know, the more meetings you can get into, the more 108 00:06:00,660 --> 00:06:03,020 you're going to understand what's going on and what the 109 00:06:03,030 --> 00:06:05,420 senior lawyers are doing and why they're and why they're doing 110 00:06:05,430 --> 00:06:08,540 it. The more senior you get. 111 00:06:08,590 --> 00:06:11,620 The thing that I found most in venture and venture law and 112 00:06:11,630 --> 00:06:16,140 venture capital law is that people sometimes just focus too 113 00:06:16,150 --> 00:06:20,100 heavily on the legal. 94% of all startups go bankrupt. 114 00:06:20,150 --> 00:06:23,200 They go and they fail, and they fail because they often they 115 00:06:23,210 --> 00:06:25,030 don't have the money and they don't have the finances. 116 00:06:25,580 --> 00:06:27,600 It's not because they don't have the right team or because they 117 00:06:27,610 --> 00:06:31,530 don't have the right idea. So understanding when you have 118 00:06:31,540 --> 00:06:34,270 to spend money on law and when you don't have to spend money on 119 00:06:34,280 --> 00:06:38,190 law and the risks associated with the decisions you make is 120 00:06:38,200 --> 00:06:42,190 really important. So I'd say focus on term sheets. 121 00:06:42,380 --> 00:06:46,530 Go to places like Y Combinator or some of the other places 122 00:06:46,540 --> 00:06:49,670 where you can just look at what the standard docs are, because 123 00:06:49,680 --> 00:06:51,770 everyone's going to use those standard docs and you should 124 00:06:51,780 --> 00:06:52,770 know them backwards and forwards. 125 00:06:53,470 --> 00:06:56,760 Amazing. So I love that you've worked in 126 00:06:56,770 --> 00:06:59,920 big law firm had really these fantastic experiences, shared a 127 00:06:59,930 --> 00:07:02,700 lot about the different skills that make a difference in the 128 00:07:02,710 --> 00:07:06,200 first few years of school of choosing this career 129 00:07:06,210 --> 00:07:08,610 specifically. And I wanted to ask you a little 130 00:07:08,620 --> 00:07:11,880 bit as well, if you could go advise a lawyer nowadays. 131 00:07:11,950 --> 00:07:15,160 What are some things that they should consider when choosing 132 00:07:15,170 --> 00:07:18,020 between, you know, either starting up their career in a 133 00:07:18,030 --> 00:07:22,470 big law practice or going to a boutique practice and and taking 134 00:07:22,480 --> 00:07:24,320 a look at the market? What are some things that you 135 00:07:24,330 --> 00:07:28,930 would tell lawyers to consider? So you know, the big firm 136 00:07:28,940 --> 00:07:33,590 practice is going to teach you how to how to do everything 137 00:07:33,600 --> 00:07:38,070 perfectly and the risk there, they're really going to reward 138 00:07:38,080 --> 00:07:42,440 you for precision, not speed. And they're also you're within, 139 00:07:42,450 --> 00:07:46,250 you're going to be a small cog within a huge organization. 140 00:07:46,420 --> 00:07:49,230 You're probably not. If you go to a boutique firm, 141 00:07:49,240 --> 00:07:52,310 you're probably going to get more interesting work more 142 00:07:52,320 --> 00:07:55,420 quickly because they just don't have the people to throw at the 143 00:07:55,430 --> 00:07:59,730 projects. And they are probably, you know, 144 00:07:59,740 --> 00:08:03,190 but, but I still think that at least for me, having had the 145 00:08:03,200 --> 00:08:06,400 experience of working at a place like Davis Polk, which which by 146 00:08:06,410 --> 00:08:08,370 the way, the introduced me to then to Morgan Stanley and I 147 00:08:08,380 --> 00:08:11,150 became the head lawyer for Morgan Stanley Private Equity 148 00:08:11,160 --> 00:08:13,400 Group in London. And I wouldn't have gotten that 149 00:08:13,410 --> 00:08:14,790 without having been in Davis Polk. 150 00:08:15,450 --> 00:08:21,140 So there are reasons to go, you know, if one has a choice, I do 151 00:08:21,150 --> 00:08:24,410 think going for two years or so to a large law firm because when 152 00:08:24,420 --> 00:08:27,390 it expands your network tremendously, all of a lot of 153 00:08:27,400 --> 00:08:29,780 those lawyers are going to go off and become general counsels 154 00:08:29,790 --> 00:08:33,179 of existing companies. They're also going to go off to 155 00:08:33,190 --> 00:08:36,429 other smaller firms. And if you've worked with them 156 00:08:36,490 --> 00:08:39,480 and they think highly of you, you've just expanded your 157 00:08:39,490 --> 00:08:41,360 network in really tremendous ways. 158 00:08:41,929 --> 00:08:46,160 So if I one has the choice, I would say go to a large law firm 159 00:08:46,170 --> 00:08:49,210 1st. And then after two years, after 160 00:08:49,220 --> 00:08:52,430 building relationships, it's at that point that I think going to 161 00:08:52,440 --> 00:08:55,480 a boutique firm, you would you would be best, you know, best 162 00:08:55,490 --> 00:08:57,940 well served. And Tasty, thanks for sharing. 163 00:08:57,950 --> 00:09:00,820 That brings you on the, on the idea of startup law. 164 00:09:00,830 --> 00:09:03,390 Now I wanted to ask you if you have a few things that that you 165 00:09:03,400 --> 00:09:06,480 could share with us, maybe a few of the, the biggest, you know, 166 00:09:06,490 --> 00:09:09,260 blind spots that you see among startup founders. 167 00:09:09,330 --> 00:09:12,020 Or if there's anything in particular that that you think 168 00:09:12,030 --> 00:09:15,680 that would be interesting to share that that lawyers can 169 00:09:15,690 --> 00:09:19,460 proactively help to avoid then these big mistakes? 170 00:09:20,070 --> 00:09:24,190 Yeah, so again, I work under the assumption that 94% of all 171 00:09:24,200 --> 00:09:27,950 startups are going to fail. So how can you best help those 172 00:09:27,960 --> 00:09:33,090 startups to succeed? So if we're talking about a true 173 00:09:33,100 --> 00:09:37,290 startup, someone who's only raised let's say $300,000 or 174 00:09:37,300 --> 00:09:39,790 below, which is what we would call the family and friends 175 00:09:39,800 --> 00:09:41,480 round. So they're they're before what 176 00:09:41,490 --> 00:09:43,610 we would think of as pre Series A. 177 00:09:43,880 --> 00:09:46,770 And by the way, another piece of advice is, is anyone who's going 178 00:09:46,780 --> 00:09:49,290 to get into this needs to understand all the acronyms, 179 00:09:49,300 --> 00:09:51,990 needs to understand what what a safe is, what a convertible note 180 00:09:52,000 --> 00:09:55,280 is, what the promissory note is, what the incorporation documents 181 00:09:55,290 --> 00:09:57,070 are. They should have just know those 182 00:09:57,080 --> 00:09:59,850 and know that language backwards and forwards. 183 00:10:00,300 --> 00:10:03,980 But the biggest mistakes I've seen from founders and what I 184 00:10:04,230 --> 00:10:08,300 council founders on is one the first is most founders try to 185 00:10:08,310 --> 00:10:12,320 keep close to their chest their idea and want to have, you know, 186 00:10:12,330 --> 00:10:15,050 NDA's, not, you know, you know, confidentiality agreements in 187 00:10:15,060 --> 00:10:18,370 place with everyone. As a general rule, unless you're 188 00:10:18,380 --> 00:10:21,130 trying to protect, you know, a drug that you're developing in a 189 00:10:21,140 --> 00:10:23,490 pharma or you're trying to develop, you're trying to 190 00:10:23,500 --> 00:10:25,790 protect IP. I take the opposite approach 191 00:10:25,800 --> 00:10:28,250 with founders and say, tell as many people as possible about 192 00:10:28,260 --> 00:10:31,540 your idea, people you trust and you know and you like, but don't 193 00:10:31,640 --> 00:10:35,210 operate under an NDA. Try to talk to as many people as 194 00:10:35,220 --> 00:10:38,200 possible to get people excited about your idea so that they 195 00:10:38,210 --> 00:10:41,270 want to come on board either as advisors or give you money, 196 00:10:41,280 --> 00:10:42,700 because that's what you're going to need. 197 00:10:42,710 --> 00:10:44,210 So that's, that's the first thing. 198 00:10:44,220 --> 00:10:49,190 The second thing is you have to have the right team in place. 199 00:10:49,370 --> 00:10:53,460 A lot of investors want to back a team, almost even more so than 200 00:10:53,470 --> 00:10:57,720 they want it back. A you know, an idea. 201 00:10:57,730 --> 00:11:00,630 And the reason is, is that a team can pivot if you have the 202 00:11:00,640 --> 00:11:03,990 right team, that can pivot to a much to, you know, to whatever 203 00:11:04,000 --> 00:11:07,940 the market needs. But from a legal side, when 204 00:11:07,950 --> 00:11:12,880 you're giving advice to founders and to to early stage companies, 205 00:11:13,110 --> 00:11:16,520 a lot of what you need to be able to do is say this is the 206 00:11:16,530 --> 00:11:19,010 risk you make with this legal decision. 207 00:11:19,020 --> 00:11:22,970 There is a 5% chance that this will happen. 208 00:11:23,120 --> 00:11:26,500 And you have to decide as a founder and also by the way, as 209 00:11:26,510 --> 00:11:29,710 a lawyer, whether or not people are willing to have that 5% 210 00:11:29,720 --> 00:11:31,770 risk, aren't willing to have that risk. 211 00:11:31,780 --> 00:11:33,990 At that point, they probably shouldn't be. 212 00:11:34,000 --> 00:11:38,270 In the entrepreneurship world, it's all about risk and 213 00:11:38,280 --> 00:11:40,470 understanding that you're often going to fail and you're going 214 00:11:40,480 --> 00:11:43,490 to have to restart again. Mainly what I'd say is bring 215 00:11:43,500 --> 00:11:47,770 advisors on really early because they can help expand your 216 00:11:47,780 --> 00:11:50,010 network. Don't worry about NDA's, which 217 00:11:50,020 --> 00:11:51,990 is what most people say you should worry about. 218 00:11:52,000 --> 00:11:55,310 I don't personally think about that and just make sure you have 219 00:11:55,320 --> 00:11:59,510 the right team in place. Anything going back to to our 220 00:12:00,080 --> 00:12:02,210 lawyers, early career professionals? 221 00:12:02,220 --> 00:12:05,210 I see that quite a few people will get out of law school and 222 00:12:05,220 --> 00:12:08,170 will still be looking into what do they want to do for the rest 223 00:12:08,180 --> 00:12:10,350 of their lives. A lot of people have very 224 00:12:10,360 --> 00:12:13,110 specific and clear ideas. Some will get the choice to do 225 00:12:13,120 --> 00:12:15,990 that, some won't. And I'm wondering if there is a 226 00:12:16,000 --> 00:12:18,870 few things that that you think that would be helpful for 227 00:12:18,880 --> 00:12:21,810 lawyers who are interested in working in startups or venture 228 00:12:21,820 --> 00:12:24,510 capital. If there is any specific advice 229 00:12:24,520 --> 00:12:28,310 about breaking into this space if you can't necessarily get 230 00:12:28,320 --> 00:12:32,080 that position in in a bigger firm right away, or in a firm 231 00:12:32,090 --> 00:12:34,870 that is more specifically looking into those fields. 232 00:12:35,540 --> 00:12:37,430 Yeah, I mean, this is going to be probably. 233 00:12:37,960 --> 00:12:41,190 So I have a different view as to advice I give. 234 00:12:41,200 --> 00:12:45,520 And I have three daughters. I have twins who are 25 and a 235 00:12:45,530 --> 00:12:49,350 third daughter who's 23. And I, I have tons of nephews as 236 00:12:49,360 --> 00:12:51,630 well. So I've seen how females and 237 00:12:51,640 --> 00:12:55,030 males are in the in the workers and of course, a woman and most 238 00:12:55,040 --> 00:12:58,050 of my friends from Harvard Law and from Princeton who are 239 00:12:58,060 --> 00:13:02,000 female ended up leaving the workforce for a while to have 240 00:13:02,010 --> 00:13:04,970 children and found it very difficult to come back into the 241 00:13:04,980 --> 00:13:09,530 workforce. I was able to continue working 242 00:13:09,620 --> 00:13:11,970 and as a result didn't have that. 243 00:13:12,020 --> 00:13:15,790 They didn't have that issue when I left for six months or so when 244 00:13:15,800 --> 00:13:18,070 I had each of each of the three kids. 245 00:13:18,510 --> 00:13:22,090 But the reason I'm prefacing this is I do think that invoice 246 00:13:22,100 --> 00:13:24,770 is not across the board for males and females because if a 247 00:13:24,780 --> 00:13:27,980 female is going to take time off of or if a male is going to take 248 00:13:27,990 --> 00:13:30,350 time off, it's not the point. It's if someone is going to take 249 00:13:30,360 --> 00:13:35,650 some period of time off between their ages of 29 and 35, they 250 00:13:35,660 --> 00:13:38,360 need to do as quickly as possible between the time that 251 00:13:38,370 --> 00:13:41,250 they finish their schooling and the time that they take off. 252 00:13:41,260 --> 00:13:44,410 Become an expert in something as quickly as possible. 253 00:13:44,480 --> 00:13:48,050 And the reason is, is experts are more capable of getting back 254 00:13:48,060 --> 00:13:50,860 into the workplace than people who are generalists. 255 00:13:51,540 --> 00:13:53,210 And at least that's been my experience. 256 00:13:53,220 --> 00:13:55,030 Other people are going to have very different views. 257 00:13:55,040 --> 00:13:57,470 So what I would say for someone who's starting out, who wants to 258 00:13:57,480 --> 00:14:00,870 get into VC and who also is thinking that there's going to 259 00:14:00,880 --> 00:14:03,730 be a time in their lives where they may take some time off is 260 00:14:03,740 --> 00:14:07,490 just find a phenomenal mentor. Do everything in your power to 261 00:14:07,500 --> 00:14:10,510 make that mentor look good at the firm so that that mentor 262 00:14:10,520 --> 00:14:12,320 ends up giving you more and more work. 263 00:14:12,330 --> 00:14:15,240 Read on the side. What's going on in the 264 00:14:15,250 --> 00:14:17,290 particular industry that you're focused on? 265 00:14:17,300 --> 00:14:19,990 Let's assume you're focused on pharma venture capital. 266 00:14:20,000 --> 00:14:22,340 If you're focused on biotech venture capital, if your 267 00:14:22,350 --> 00:14:26,090 function focused on fintech, understand the big picture there 268 00:14:26,100 --> 00:14:29,550 so that you aren't just talking about the legal, but you're 269 00:14:29,560 --> 00:14:32,550 helping them grow a business. That's what they're looking for. 270 00:14:32,860 --> 00:14:37,400 And then make sure you think about the way in which you're, 271 00:14:38,080 --> 00:14:41,770 so anyone who's giving advice, understand the risk analysis of 272 00:14:41,780 --> 00:14:43,730 that advice. And you're never going to be 273 00:14:43,740 --> 00:14:47,390 able to say to somebody that this is 100% no problem. 274 00:14:47,520 --> 00:14:50,730 And one of the things I, I think it's really important to know is 275 00:14:50,740 --> 00:14:54,630 even if you draw a up a contract that is 100%, it's the best 276 00:14:54,640 --> 00:14:57,000 contract you ever you could imagine, it doesn't mean that 277 00:14:57,010 --> 00:14:59,970 someone's not going to sue on it because even if they're going to 278 00:14:59,980 --> 00:15:01,290 lose, they still going to sue on it. 279 00:15:01,300 --> 00:15:04,880 If they sue, if they sue on it, you essentially get taken out of 280 00:15:04,890 --> 00:15:06,140 your business. And that's what you have to 281 00:15:06,150 --> 00:15:10,290 spend your time on. So as a general rule, understand 282 00:15:10,300 --> 00:15:14,310 risk, have a great mentor, try to get it, become an expert as, 283 00:15:14,350 --> 00:15:18,390 as as possible in something that is relevant to the field that 284 00:15:18,400 --> 00:15:21,820 you're, you're looking at. And then another thing I would 285 00:15:21,830 --> 00:15:25,460 do is find friends who are starting businesses and see if 286 00:15:25,470 --> 00:15:28,490 you can, if you can work with them for free so that you can 287 00:15:28,500 --> 00:15:32,450 just start helping those people who you're, you know, you're, 288 00:15:32,460 --> 00:15:34,760 you're going to giving advice to, but it'll help you in the 289 00:15:34,770 --> 00:15:37,290 long run. And especially if they become 290 00:15:37,300 --> 00:15:38,940 successful and they and they bring you on. 291 00:15:39,580 --> 00:15:41,340 It's amazing. I really appreciate you taking 292 00:15:41,350 --> 00:15:43,340 the time to being in the podcast today. 293 00:15:43,390 --> 00:15:45,730 Thank you all for tuning into today's episode as well. 294 00:15:46,440 --> 00:15:47,340 Thank you very much.