1 00:00:12,870 --> 00:00:14,860 Welcome to Studying Law Around the World. 2 00:00:15,010 --> 00:00:17,860 I'm Claudio Claus. In each episode, I talk with 3 00:00:17,870 --> 00:00:20,840 lawyers, law students, and professors from different parts 4 00:00:20,850 --> 00:00:24,740 of the world to talk about legal education, careers, and what the 5 00:00:24,750 --> 00:00:26,420 profession looks like in real life. 6 00:00:26,430 --> 00:00:29,470 We talk about the hard parts, the surprises, and the decisions 7 00:00:29,480 --> 00:00:32,259 that shaped their paths. Whether you're planning to study 8 00:00:32,270 --> 00:00:35,520 abroad, thinking about working in another legal system, or just 9 00:00:35,530 --> 00:00:39,640 curious about how law works around the world, this podcast 10 00:00:39,650 --> 00:00:43,580 is for you. Hello, everybody. 11 00:00:43,590 --> 00:00:46,300 Welcome to another episode of Studying Law around the World. 12 00:00:46,350 --> 00:00:51,980 Today I'm receiving once again my friend Hassan Manuala, who is 13 00:00:51,990 --> 00:00:55,990 a partner at Minwalla in Safari in Pakistan and an officer of 14 00:00:56,000 --> 00:00:58,160 the International Bar Association. 15 00:00:58,210 --> 00:01:01,050 Welcome back to the podcast. Thank you for coming, Hassan. 16 00:01:01,060 --> 00:01:03,080 Thank you so much, Claudio, and thanks for having me back. 17 00:01:03,090 --> 00:01:06,760 It's always a pleasure to talk to you on a different topic 18 00:01:06,770 --> 00:01:07,960 each. Time her son. 19 00:01:08,200 --> 00:01:11,140 Can you, can you just do a quick intro of yourself to our 20 00:01:11,260 --> 00:01:13,900 listeners who are listening to you for the first time in this 21 00:01:13,910 --> 00:01:18,890 episode? Lawyer practicing in Pakistan. 22 00:01:18,900 --> 00:01:21,610 We have offices in all principal cities of Pakistan, Karachi, 23 00:01:21,620 --> 00:01:26,690 Lahore and Islamabad and we have a unique presence in Dubai, UAE 24 00:01:26,700 --> 00:01:29,100 as well. Prior to this I spent 10 years 25 00:01:29,110 --> 00:01:35,830 in the UK where I got all my legal education and worked at an 26 00:01:35,840 --> 00:01:38,490 investment bank as well as a law firm. 27 00:01:38,720 --> 00:01:42,580 So you know, got in tune with what's happening financially in 28 00:01:42,590 --> 00:01:45,990 the world through experience in the UK and now I'm very 29 00:01:46,240 --> 00:01:48,190 connected to the International Bar Association. 30 00:01:48,200 --> 00:01:51,460 I sit on 2 committees of the International Bar Association, 31 00:01:51,470 --> 00:01:53,610 the Young Lawyers Committee and the Anti Money Laundering 32 00:01:53,620 --> 00:01:56,390 Committee. And I think it's very important 33 00:01:56,400 --> 00:01:58,930 to continue being a student of international law. 34 00:01:59,000 --> 00:02:00,820 And I think that's, you know, that's the focus of our 35 00:02:00,830 --> 00:02:04,220 discussion today, international law and how it affects Pakistan 36 00:02:04,270 --> 00:02:06,240 and, and you know, how we're looking at it, you know, 37 00:02:06,250 --> 00:02:09,840 especially in these interesting times these days. 38 00:02:09,850 --> 00:02:12,360 Absolutely and and thanks for making the time to come here 39 00:02:12,370 --> 00:02:15,930 because we've all the the recent developments, I thought it would 40 00:02:15,940 --> 00:02:19,220 be very nice to you to hear a little more from a lawyer in the 41 00:02:19,230 --> 00:02:23,320 country about this very, very interesting subject. 42 00:02:23,330 --> 00:02:26,840 Now we want, you know, in a way, zoom out and take a look in the 43 00:02:26,850 --> 00:02:29,820 country of Pakistan. And for someone outside the 44 00:02:29,830 --> 00:02:32,680 country, how would you describe the legal landscape there? 45 00:02:32,690 --> 00:02:36,780 Today, so we have a democratic setup, we have separation of 46 00:02:36,790 --> 00:02:40,180 powers, we have a constitution, a written constitution in 47 00:02:40,190 --> 00:02:45,050 Pakistan in which the executive, the parliament and the judiciary 48 00:02:45,100 --> 00:02:48,910 is very well delineated. Of course, as you see with 49 00:02:48,920 --> 00:02:52,480 several countries, there are power shifts with different 50 00:02:52,490 --> 00:02:54,240 times. And, and I think the interesting 51 00:02:54,250 --> 00:02:59,850 part about today is that there is a unanimous will in Pakistan 52 00:02:59,860 --> 00:03:03,400 for diplomatic relations to remain, you know, with the one 53 00:03:03,410 --> 00:03:05,220 track focus. And I think that's fast 54 00:03:05,230 --> 00:03:09,650 forwarding to April 13th, 2026 when Islamabad, our capital, 55 00:03:09,660 --> 00:03:14,020 hosted a peace talks between the United States and Iran. 56 00:03:14,080 --> 00:03:16,890 It's not an overnight situation that has happened. 57 00:03:16,900 --> 00:03:21,390 Begin to historically consider how Pakistan has played its 58 00:03:21,400 --> 00:03:25,430 role, its geopolitical place in the world. 59 00:03:25,820 --> 00:03:29,120 It's actually very interesting to see how the events of today, 60 00:03:29,210 --> 00:03:34,000 you know, are are really it's it's because history has kind of 61 00:03:34,010 --> 00:03:37,040 made Pakistan come into this situation in which they can 62 00:03:37,430 --> 00:03:39,900 actually be a potential price broker in the region. 63 00:03:39,910 --> 00:03:42,390 So how? Does geopolitics shape the the 64 00:03:42,400 --> 00:03:45,660 legal work in the country and especially when dealing with 65 00:03:45,670 --> 00:03:48,540 cross-border matters? So I think one of the most 66 00:03:48,550 --> 00:03:54,020 important things for lawyers is, is, is, is, is economic activity 67 00:03:54,030 --> 00:03:57,000 brings more legal work. So I and you know, if we go, 68 00:03:57,070 --> 00:04:00,980 let's say, all the way back into the past and India split in 69 00:04:01,050 --> 00:04:03,260 1947. At that time, the world order 70 00:04:03,270 --> 00:04:06,920 was, you know, you had Iran under the Shah of Iran. 71 00:04:06,930 --> 00:04:10,730 So the alignment with the United States, uh, was, was essentially 72 00:04:10,740 --> 00:04:15,630 the same as Pakistan threat in the region, if you may, as far 73 00:04:15,640 --> 00:04:18,220 as Iran was concerned, because there was a, you know, there was 74 00:04:18,230 --> 00:04:21,010 a, there, there was a sort of Western alignment that was 75 00:04:21,019 --> 00:04:23,540 there. And arguably at that time there 76 00:04:23,550 --> 00:04:27,950 was that there were not power circles of the Soviet Russia 77 00:04:28,220 --> 00:04:32,220 and, and Iran Persia, because it was more of a skew towards the 78 00:04:32,230 --> 00:04:36,590 United States. Come 1979 and come, come the 79 00:04:36,600 --> 00:04:40,050 Iranian revolution, revolution. It was an entirely different 80 00:04:40,060 --> 00:04:45,250 world order that took place. The events that led up to 1979 81 00:04:46,200 --> 00:04:50,750 were, you know, there was, there was a very strong Soviet Union 82 00:04:50,820 --> 00:04:53,120 there. There was a scenario in which 83 00:04:53,230 --> 00:04:56,640 there, you know, there was the, the, the invasion of the Soviet 84 00:04:56,650 --> 00:04:59,780 into Afghanistan, but then you had that Pakistan having to kind 85 00:04:59,790 --> 00:05:04,020 of balance the act between the United States and Iran because 86 00:05:04,030 --> 00:05:07,060 Pakistan is diplomatically connected to both factions, 87 00:05:07,070 --> 00:05:10,060 right? So when you have multiple issues 88 00:05:10,070 --> 00:05:13,500 going on with, with, with the region in between that it's 89 00:05:13,510 --> 00:05:15,360 really, it's really not Pakistan's war. 90 00:05:15,370 --> 00:05:18,820 It's kind of a shift in the tectonics of, of the global 91 00:05:18,830 --> 00:05:21,160 dynamics that changes the economics, right? 92 00:05:21,170 --> 00:05:25,000 Because what happens then is that Pakistan has to manage a 93 00:05:25,010 --> 00:05:26,910 trade with its neighbor being Iran. 94 00:05:26,920 --> 00:05:29,260 There is a significant amount of trade that takes place on the 95 00:05:29,270 --> 00:05:31,160 border. Pakistan has to manage 96 00:05:31,230 --> 00:05:33,920 insurgency on its border because Afghanistan has its own 97 00:05:33,930 --> 00:05:35,910 problems. And at the end of the day, 98 00:05:35,980 --> 00:05:38,340 Pakistan got support from the United States during that time. 99 00:05:38,390 --> 00:05:41,460 And then Pakistan has to manage a very intricate relationship 100 00:05:41,470 --> 00:05:44,140 with China because Pakistan has been friends with China, you 101 00:05:44,150 --> 00:05:48,020 know, since since, since, since a very long time. 102 00:05:48,090 --> 00:05:51,380 I think in, in, you know, in 1971, I think Pakistan really 103 00:05:51,390 --> 00:05:55,900 demonstrated how it could play a very important diplomatic role 104 00:05:55,910 --> 00:06:01,070 because Henry Kissinger, you know, came to Pakistan in, in 105 00:06:01,080 --> 00:06:07,990 1971 and, you know, sort of used that opportunity to do an 106 00:06:08,000 --> 00:06:11,690 overnight in China and have discussions in when the US and 107 00:06:11,700 --> 00:06:13,770 China hadn't spoken for several years. 108 00:06:13,780 --> 00:06:17,230 So, so, you know, the, the politics aside, just just to 109 00:06:17,240 --> 00:06:21,250 contextualize all these elements, they automatically 110 00:06:21,260 --> 00:06:24,370 translate into some kind of economic activity. 111 00:06:24,540 --> 00:06:27,680 So at the end of the day, like when, when, when, when there's a 112 00:06:27,690 --> 00:06:30,360 country that is, that is more or less aligned with the United 113 00:06:30,370 --> 00:06:31,790 States. And, and, and that's, that's how 114 00:06:31,800 --> 00:06:34,130 we've been and that's how we continue to be, but also 115 00:06:34,140 --> 00:06:38,270 balancing these neighbors who we have problems and a certain 116 00:06:38,280 --> 00:06:41,130 level of trade with, right? I think that's what kind of 117 00:06:41,180 --> 00:06:44,820 allows deal market to, to get better to flourish. 118 00:06:45,070 --> 00:06:48,060 And, and if the security situation remains sort of above 119 00:06:48,070 --> 00:06:51,620 board and intact, we see that as lawyers because we'll see the 120 00:06:51,630 --> 00:06:54,580 IFC and the ADB's coming with more investment. 121 00:06:54,640 --> 00:06:56,880 We'll see our neighbors putting in more investment. 122 00:06:56,950 --> 00:06:59,880 And I think the, the, the major indicator is, is, is, is when, 123 00:06:59,890 --> 00:07:02,560 you know, when more dollars come into the country, that's when 124 00:07:02,570 --> 00:07:06,340 we've seen Pakistan thrive to through successive governments 125 00:07:06,350 --> 00:07:08,800 and stands in Pakistan. Would you say that in a general 126 00:07:08,810 --> 00:07:11,960 terms a lawyers in Pakistan need to think about international 127 00:07:11,970 --> 00:07:15,320 relations then when advising clients, especially if they are 128 00:07:15,330 --> 00:07:18,180 know international clients or clients who do a lot of 129 00:07:18,290 --> 00:07:21,470 cross-border work? Or is that show more of a niche? 130 00:07:21,480 --> 00:07:23,930 Space, I think it's definitely bored. 131 00:07:23,940 --> 00:07:27,110 I mean, if you want to have a practice that is international 132 00:07:27,120 --> 00:07:29,710 facing and of course, everybody does because that's, you know, 133 00:07:29,720 --> 00:07:31,990 that's where the earning essentially gets unlocked from. 134 00:07:32,060 --> 00:07:35,510 I, I don't think it's ignorable because what do, what do foreign 135 00:07:35,520 --> 00:07:37,560 investors want? They want consistency, right? 136 00:07:37,570 --> 00:07:41,050 They want consistency in policy, in government or surprisingly, 137 00:07:41,120 --> 00:07:44,710 there are many entities and many groups that have have an 138 00:07:44,720 --> 00:07:47,470 appetite for security situations that happen from time to time. 139 00:07:47,480 --> 00:07:48,570 They happen all over the world, right? 140 00:07:48,580 --> 00:07:51,090 It's not just Pakistan in which, you know, you, you hear of some 141 00:07:51,160 --> 00:07:53,750 untoward situation taking place. This, this happens all the time. 142 00:07:53,860 --> 00:07:57,400 As long as the policy remains consistent, I think that's that, 143 00:07:58,080 --> 00:08:02,090 that's where a foreign investor will, will, will, will continue 144 00:08:02,100 --> 00:08:04,430 remaining in Pakistan. So back to your point about 145 00:08:04,440 --> 00:08:08,720 being an international lawyer, if you are kind of familiar with 146 00:08:08,730 --> 00:08:11,660 the workings of the Central Bank of the Securities and Exchange 147 00:08:11,670 --> 00:08:15,840 Commission of the evolving legal and regulatory landscape of 148 00:08:15,850 --> 00:08:18,140 Pakistan went through agree listing with FTF. 149 00:08:18,150 --> 00:08:22,340 If you are able to advise on these issues and these issues 150 00:08:22,350 --> 00:08:25,960 are all based on political events that take place, right? 151 00:08:26,030 --> 00:08:29,620 I mean, currently there, there is an international war that has 152 00:08:30,010 --> 00:08:33,380 come into a ceasefire element because Pakistan has played a 153 00:08:33,390 --> 00:08:36,340 role, right? So at the end of the day, to not 154 00:08:36,350 --> 00:08:39,720 have this knowledge and to not have the background of what 155 00:08:39,730 --> 00:08:43,120 conventions are in play, what kind of points have been 156 00:08:43,130 --> 00:08:45,640 discussed? It, it, it kind of puts you at a 157 00:08:45,650 --> 00:08:48,320 disadvantage because you're not speaking the language then of 158 00:08:48,330 --> 00:08:50,050 the foreign investor. Like the foreign investor is 159 00:08:50,060 --> 00:08:53,400 going to ask these pretty headline questions that you can, 160 00:08:53,470 --> 00:08:55,030 you can see in the FD or you can see. 161 00:08:55,040 --> 00:08:57,550 But if you have that local knowledge to back it up with, 162 00:08:57,620 --> 00:09:00,000 then I think you, you're, you're, you're at least engaging 163 00:09:00,010 --> 00:09:01,790 in. So as, as international lawyers, 164 00:09:01,800 --> 00:09:05,370 it is our duty in it. It is our responsibility to give 165 00:09:05,740 --> 00:09:09,280 this very niche knowledge to our foreign investors so that they 166 00:09:09,290 --> 00:09:11,560 can continue to stay and not get kind of sidetracked and 167 00:09:11,570 --> 00:09:15,340 digressed by by events that don't necessarily concern their 168 00:09:15,350 --> 00:09:16,710 investment for the economics, you know. 169 00:09:16,720 --> 00:09:19,810 Have you seen some transactions, negotiations or or legal 170 00:09:19,820 --> 00:09:24,050 strategies that shifted because of political or the regional? 171 00:09:24,060 --> 00:09:29,770 Dynamics So I think or for the first time in history, Pakistan 172 00:09:29,780 --> 00:09:33,930 has come into this voluntarily. They have it's been almost like 173 00:09:33,940 --> 00:09:36,450 a roadshow, like think about a transactional Rd. show that's 174 00:09:36,460 --> 00:09:38,910 been taking place. Our power circles have been 175 00:09:38,920 --> 00:09:42,790 going to all the right places, reengaging their diplomatic 176 00:09:42,800 --> 00:09:45,570 connections, which were perhaps a little less stronger in the 177 00:09:45,580 --> 00:09:48,690 previous government and and and have brought themselves to a 178 00:09:48,700 --> 00:09:52,530 point in which, yes, this will unlock economic activity. 179 00:09:52,860 --> 00:09:56,190 What has happened, and I'll tell you from a very personal legal 180 00:09:56,200 --> 00:10:00,670 perspective is yes, the IFC's, the ADB's International Finance 181 00:10:00,680 --> 00:10:03,990 corporation, Asian Development Bank, the multilaterals have 182 00:10:04,000 --> 00:10:06,150 come back into Pakistan with more projects. 183 00:10:06,160 --> 00:10:07,950 And this is you know, this is pre war. 184 00:10:07,960 --> 00:10:11,020 So this is a lead up to these peace talks, but this is because 185 00:10:11,030 --> 00:10:13,780 the road show has been actively taking place. 186 00:10:13,790 --> 00:10:16,080 Really, it's, you know, obviously the, the, the actual 187 00:10:16,090 --> 00:10:21,000 events of April 13th, 2026 in Islamabad are, are, are one 188 00:10:21,010 --> 00:10:22,840 aspect of it. But I think the government has 189 00:10:22,850 --> 00:10:25,700 been working consistently to get here. 190 00:10:25,770 --> 00:10:29,200 And yes, absolutely, at least in my, my, my international 191 00:10:29,210 --> 00:10:32,820 practice, I have seen, you know, an array of transactions come 192 00:10:32,830 --> 00:10:36,940 into Pakistan, which no law firm would be working on, let's say 193 00:10:37,040 --> 00:10:41,660 1012 years ago, because the appetite of these multilaterals 194 00:10:41,670 --> 00:10:44,010 had just kind of depleted a little bit. 195 00:10:44,050 --> 00:10:46,620 So yes, you are seeing the transactions of this nature. 196 00:10:46,630 --> 00:10:50,320 You know, we we've done telecom deals, we've done, you know, a 197 00:10:50,330 --> 00:10:52,460 lot of international deals that have international facing 198 00:10:52,470 --> 00:10:55,970 elements in this roadshow lead up to the peace talks as. 199 00:10:55,980 --> 00:10:58,480 As you said, you know there has been a lot of attention around 200 00:10:58,490 --> 00:11:01,430 the Islamabad talks or peace talks, right? 201 00:11:01,440 --> 00:11:04,370 Can you walk us through a little bit of what happened to build up 202 00:11:04,380 --> 00:11:07,750 what actually happened and and maybe even what comes next as 203 00:11:07,760 --> 00:11:12,130 far as we can tell right now? Look, I think, you know, one 204 00:11:12,180 --> 00:11:18,280 maybe advantageous role Pakistan had was that in in 1990, 205 00:11:18,290 --> 00:11:21,740 Pakistan was also sanctioned because of nuclear, nuclear 206 00:11:22,170 --> 00:11:24,090 proliferation issues and all of that. 207 00:11:24,100 --> 00:11:26,920 And I think Iran, you know, under the under the previous 208 00:11:26,930 --> 00:11:29,360 regime, when, when, when, when the Shah of Iran was in power, 209 00:11:29,550 --> 00:11:37,500 the the non proliferation regime for so, so, so the United States 210 00:11:37,510 --> 00:11:42,860 has, you know, a basic, well, not so basic, but, but are 211 00:11:42,870 --> 00:11:45,900 asking for no nuclear program for Iran. 212 00:11:45,950 --> 00:11:50,260 And what the Iranians are are kind of coming back with is that 213 00:11:50,310 --> 00:11:53,300 they want to come into the world again after 30 years of being 214 00:11:53,310 --> 00:11:56,000 sanctioned. And this is I think how Pakistan 215 00:11:56,010 --> 00:11:59,000 was perhaps able to play a role because Pakistan was also 216 00:11:59,010 --> 00:12:03,750 sanctioned and because of, let's say, the events of, you know, 217 00:12:03,760 --> 00:12:06,050 the War on Terror and Pakistan's alignment again with the United 218 00:12:06,060 --> 00:12:08,370 States, they were able to get unsanctioned, right? 219 00:12:08,380 --> 00:12:13,560 So I think one of the main areas of, of debate here is that we as 220 00:12:13,570 --> 00:12:16,510 Iran are willing to, you know, do XYZ. 221 00:12:16,520 --> 00:12:19,970 We want to get back into the world of finance and commerce 222 00:12:20,020 --> 00:12:21,850 with the rest of the world. But at the end of the day, we 223 00:12:21,860 --> 00:12:23,430 want to maintain our nuclear program. 224 00:12:23,440 --> 00:12:26,750 And our nuclear program is very, very above board because it has, 225 00:12:26,810 --> 00:12:29,330 you know, we've signed off on, on various treaties, right? 226 00:12:29,420 --> 00:12:31,310 United States says no, nothing doing. 227 00:12:31,320 --> 00:12:34,390 You know, we want no nukes and we don't want all you. 228 00:12:34,400 --> 00:12:36,870 You give up all the enrichment that's taking place. 229 00:12:37,200 --> 00:12:40,000 What does that look like in practice for lawyers who are 230 00:12:40,010 --> 00:12:44,520 working on sensitive or or high stake matters right now in the 231 00:12:44,530 --> 00:12:46,220 country? Are there situations where 232 00:12:46,270 --> 00:12:49,700 lawyers themselves might face some additional pressure because 233 00:12:49,710 --> 00:12:52,360 of clients or the issues they're taking on? 234 00:12:52,750 --> 00:12:55,120 What does that look like in the in the day-to-day? 235 00:12:55,130 --> 00:12:56,420 What have you been hearing? Look. 236 00:12:56,430 --> 00:12:59,340 At mediation is, is an ongoing process, right? 237 00:12:59,350 --> 00:13:04,540 And sitting between 2 high stake governments on the brink of a 238 00:13:05,010 --> 00:13:09,540 tectonic shift in power for 21 hours, that's not giving 239 00:13:09,550 --> 00:13:11,980 mediation. It's, it's full chance as well, 240 00:13:11,990 --> 00:13:13,660 right? Like, I mean, they're obviously 241 00:13:13,670 --> 00:13:17,660 have to be follow-ups. There has to be back and forth. 242 00:13:17,670 --> 00:13:20,330 There's so many elements, right? Like, I mean, even think about, 243 00:13:20,670 --> 00:13:24,340 you know, one of Iran's demands is, is, is, is have a new UN 244 00:13:24,350 --> 00:13:27,720 resolution, you know, and make it legally binding in order to 245 00:13:27,730 --> 00:13:30,370 recognize Iran in, in, you know, in terms of these lifting of 246 00:13:30,380 --> 00:13:33,470 sanctions right now, that's that that you're involving the United 247 00:13:33,480 --> 00:13:35,510 Nations altogether. That's the whole entire body, 248 00:13:35,520 --> 00:13:37,770 right? So for mediation to take place 249 00:13:37,780 --> 00:13:41,810 and for that particular aspect to be acted upon, right, you 250 00:13:41,820 --> 00:13:44,590 need the UN to sit together, you need all the countries to agree. 251 00:13:44,850 --> 00:13:48,220 So it's not something that is going to happen just by virtue 252 00:13:48,230 --> 00:13:50,930 of two governments sitting together and talking. 253 00:13:50,940 --> 00:13:53,570 Obviously, you know, the US vice president has to go back and 254 00:13:53,580 --> 00:13:56,110 take it back to the White House. There's a whole advisory 255 00:13:56,180 --> 00:13:59,900 committee, I'm assuming everybody of importance was not 256 00:13:59,910 --> 00:14:02,630 in Islamabad, because there's there's a whole side piece that 257 00:14:02,640 --> 00:14:05,030 needs to be discussed. It's interesting, you know, 258 00:14:05,040 --> 00:14:07,250 what's going to happen because there are several factors that 259 00:14:07,260 --> 00:14:10,010 are dependent. So mediation cannot be a one day 260 00:14:10,020 --> 00:14:11,190 thing, right? And I think that's the 261 00:14:11,200 --> 00:14:13,300 expectation of the international community is that, well, 262 00:14:13,310 --> 00:14:14,380 everybody was gonna come to Pakistan. 263 00:14:14,390 --> 00:14:16,470 They built this whole, you know, the war is gonna end. 264 00:14:16,480 --> 00:14:19,170 I think just the fact that there's a two week ceasefire. 265 00:14:19,240 --> 00:14:21,910 And yes, you're, you know, you're seeing all these posts 266 00:14:21,920 --> 00:14:25,330 on, on, on truth and you're seeing, you know, annihilation 267 00:14:25,340 --> 00:14:26,790 of civilization and all these things. 268 00:14:26,800 --> 00:14:30,590 But I do think there is, you know, common sense has to 269 00:14:30,600 --> 00:14:34,350 prevail behind this because, you know, nobody wants a nuclear war 270 00:14:34,360 --> 00:14:37,890 and it just doesn't serve the interests of, of, of any 271 00:14:37,900 --> 00:14:39,610 country. You know, I think Pakistan is a, 272 00:14:39,680 --> 00:14:42,750 is, is unique because, you know, we are a nuclear power. 273 00:14:42,760 --> 00:14:45,930 So we have again, the ability to have this conversation with, 274 00:14:45,940 --> 00:14:49,550 with, with two, two superpowers in this world. 275 00:14:49,600 --> 00:14:52,630 But as far as mediation is concerned, I think look at the 276 00:14:52,640 --> 00:14:54,040 elements involved. I mean, just two things. 277 00:14:54,050 --> 00:14:58,160 We've discussed the UN resolution and and and and and 278 00:14:58,170 --> 00:15:01,980 nuclear enrichment. These are not things that can be 279 00:15:01,990 --> 00:15:04,390 resolved in 21 hours. Absolutely not for someone. 280 00:15:04,400 --> 00:15:07,860 Who's outside of Pakistan today who wants to understand the 281 00:15:07,870 --> 00:15:10,720 process even more, but who also might be seeing an economic 282 00:15:10,730 --> 00:15:14,770 opportunity in all of these arrangements or even work with 283 00:15:14,780 --> 00:15:17,500 that legal market? What should they get right 284 00:15:17,570 --> 00:15:21,000 early, you know, And looking back at your own path, is there 285 00:15:21,010 --> 00:15:23,540 anything that you would do differently if you were 286 00:15:23,550 --> 00:15:26,740 starting? Today, you know, it's, it, it, 287 00:15:26,840 --> 00:15:28,640 it's, it's a very interesting diet, right? 288 00:15:28,650 --> 00:15:32,220 Because, um, I think anybody sitting outside Pakistan would, 289 00:15:32,290 --> 00:15:36,560 would definitely want to consider what the, the 290 00:15:36,870 --> 00:15:38,740 geopolitical situation is, right? 291 00:15:38,750 --> 00:15:42,450 Like, I mean, Pakistan's most economically thriving time, 292 00:15:42,460 --> 00:15:45,060 believe it or not, was, was, was during the War on Terror. 293 00:15:45,070 --> 00:15:47,840 And, and why was that? Because foreign investment flew 294 00:15:47,850 --> 00:15:50,900 in because of alignment with the United States, that there was so 295 00:15:50,910 --> 00:15:56,180 much legal work that came in because, yes, the, the, the, the 296 00:15:56,190 --> 00:15:58,620 US needed Pakistan as a frontline state then to, to 297 00:15:58,630 --> 00:16:02,740 support, you know, it's, it's invasion of Afghanistan and as, 298 00:16:02,750 --> 00:16:05,040 as, as a consequence. So there is there, there are 299 00:16:05,050 --> 00:16:06,830 heavy economics then then come into play. 300 00:16:06,890 --> 00:16:11,670 So in terms of deal flow, in terms of it, it, it does, it 301 00:16:11,680 --> 00:16:15,050 does, it does serve Pakistan to play this diplomatically 302 00:16:15,060 --> 00:16:19,040 important role. Because now especially I think 303 00:16:19,120 --> 00:16:24,870 you will see foreign investors looking into Pakistan, maybe 304 00:16:24,880 --> 00:16:28,500 those that exited will find better economics to come back in 305 00:16:28,510 --> 00:16:31,890 terms of, in terms of stability, our stock market is always 306 00:16:31,900 --> 00:16:33,860 performing. I mean, there are tips every now 307 00:16:33,870 --> 00:16:35,510 and again, but it's always performing well. 308 00:16:35,520 --> 00:16:38,170 And I think after, you know, the lead up to the peace talks was 309 00:16:38,180 --> 00:16:40,030 good, there's a little bit of a decline now. 310 00:16:40,040 --> 00:16:42,210 But I think that, that you know, that it will just come back 311 00:16:42,220 --> 00:16:44,050 because it's, it's, it's, it's strong. 312 00:16:44,060 --> 00:16:47,310 So it's a, it's, it's an interesting landscape with a lot 313 00:16:47,320 --> 00:16:49,590 of opportunity. And I think partnering yourself 314 00:16:49,600 --> 00:16:53,670 up with, with locals who are in business, who are law 315 00:16:53,680 --> 00:16:56,310 professionals, who are accountants, who are, who are 316 00:16:56,320 --> 00:16:58,810 even having a chat with representatives of the 317 00:16:58,820 --> 00:17:00,640 government or would, would, would, would serve your 318 00:17:00,650 --> 00:17:02,720 interest. I think for for for people who 319 00:17:02,730 --> 00:17:05,569 are kind of navigating a career in international law, what I 320 00:17:05,579 --> 00:17:08,700 would like to see is maybe some foreign firms having genuine 321 00:17:08,710 --> 00:17:10,670 affiliations with, with with Pakistani law firms. 322 00:17:10,680 --> 00:17:13,339 We don't have that yet. We all law firms work with 323 00:17:13,349 --> 00:17:16,740 international law firms. But I think, you know, this 324 00:17:16,750 --> 00:17:20,119 could pave the way to having sort of an affiliation. 325 00:17:20,210 --> 00:17:22,560 Fantastic. Well, thank you so much for for 326 00:17:22,569 --> 00:17:25,460 coming in the show and sharing with us a little more of the the 327 00:17:25,470 --> 00:17:29,100 details of what's going on and what it looks like to be 328 00:17:29,110 --> 00:17:30,840 practicing in Pakistan these days. 329 00:17:30,850 --> 00:17:33,460 Really appreciate you making the time and thank you all for 330 00:17:33,470 --> 00:17:35,720 listening into today's episode. Thank you so much, Claudia. 331 00:17:35,730 --> 00:17:37,380 It's always good to be on your show. 332 00:17:37,390 --> 00:17:40,080 And it's it's it's always fun having a conversation with you. 333 00:17:40,090 --> 00:17:42,980 And, you know, I appreciate you allowing me to be very candid. 334 00:17:42,990 --> 00:17:44,220 Thank you. Absolutely. 335 00:17:44,230 --> 00:17:45,380 Thank you so much.