1 00:00:12,870 --> 00:00:16,460 Welcome to studying law around the world I'm Claudio Claus in 2 00:00:16,470 --> 00:00:19,360 each episode, I talk with lawyers, law students and 3 00:00:19,370 --> 00:00:22,750 professors from different parts of the world to talk about legal 4 00:00:22,760 --> 00:00:26,040 education, careers, and what the profession looks like in real 5 00:00:26,050 --> 00:00:28,980 life we talk about the hard parts, the surprises and the 6 00:00:28,990 --> 00:00:31,360 decisions that. Shaped their paths, whether. 7 00:00:31,370 --> 00:00:34,010 You're planning to study abroad, thinking about working in 8 00:00:34,020 --> 00:00:37,360 another legal system, or just curious about how law works 9 00:00:37,450 --> 00:00:39,980 around the world? This podcast is for. 10 00:00:39,990 --> 00:00:44,700 You. Today I'm interviewing Gary 11 00:00:44,750 --> 00:00:49,080 Mike, who is a lawyer who has a very interesting practice. 12 00:00:49,090 --> 00:00:52,960 He started his career in Canada and now works internationally as 13 00:00:52,970 --> 00:00:55,720 a nomad lawyer. Thank you so much for making the 14 00:00:55,730 --> 00:00:57,580 time to be here today. Erie, thank you. 15 00:00:57,590 --> 00:00:59,730 Glad you appreciate you having me on. 16 00:00:59,740 --> 00:01:02,110 Here, absolutely. And just start over podcast. 17 00:01:02,120 --> 00:01:04,920 I'd love for you to introduce yourself and walk us through a 18 00:01:04,930 --> 00:01:07,700 little bit of your path, you know, from law school to 19 00:01:07,710 --> 00:01:09,860 building your own remote practice. 20 00:01:10,530 --> 00:01:14,360 So quick into introduction, Amari at Digital Nomad Lawyer. 21 00:01:14,850 --> 00:01:18,200 I practice in corporate and commercial law like you said, 22 00:01:18,210 --> 00:01:21,380 now Canadian lawyer. I grew up in Montreal, Canada, 23 00:01:21,870 --> 00:01:27,770 known for its harsh winters. So I went to law school 2 hours 24 00:01:27,780 --> 00:01:30,490 away from Montreal in the city called the Sherbrooke. 25 00:01:30,560 --> 00:01:32,710 Actually, I come from a family of engineers. 26 00:01:32,720 --> 00:01:35,430 It's a funny story. I'm the first lawyer in the 27 00:01:35,440 --> 00:01:38,470 family. Like all the rest of my family. 28 00:01:38,480 --> 00:01:40,050 I thought I was going to be an engineer. 29 00:01:40,120 --> 00:01:44,150 But when I went to engineering school at McGill for one year, I 30 00:01:44,260 --> 00:01:46,730 really really hated it. And I said I can't do this all 31 00:01:46,740 --> 00:01:49,310 my life. So I had to switch to law 32 00:01:49,320 --> 00:01:50,850 school. The program I've had never 33 00:01:50,860 --> 00:01:52,450 heard, I didn't know anything about. 34 00:01:52,760 --> 00:01:55,250 So I gave it a shot ended up being one of the better 35 00:01:55,260 --> 00:01:58,950 decisions of of of my life. So like I said, I went to law 36 00:01:58,960 --> 00:02:01,680 school in in Sherbrook, which is a City 2 hours away from 37 00:02:01,690 --> 00:02:06,170 Montreal. And this had no prior legal 38 00:02:06,180 --> 00:02:09,410 experience, no lawyers in the family, you know, even lawyer 39 00:02:09,419 --> 00:02:11,410 friends. So I went to law school for for 40 00:02:11,420 --> 00:02:15,470 three years and I started noticing something very early on 41 00:02:15,480 --> 00:02:19,730 in my law school, which was the influence that big law firms had 42 00:02:19,780 --> 00:02:22,730 not only on lawyers, but on, on the students. 43 00:02:22,740 --> 00:02:25,660 I'll tell you a little story during one hour or two hours. 44 00:02:25,670 --> 00:02:28,510 So basically the first years of law school, they have big law 45 00:02:28,520 --> 00:02:32,740 firms would come and basically, I don't know how to say this 46 00:02:32,750 --> 00:02:37,610 better, but try to brainwash us into going into big law by they, 47 00:02:37,620 --> 00:02:40,790 they offered like these. They came in and, and had these 48 00:02:40,800 --> 00:02:44,190 big coach bus buses and that they took us from from 49 00:02:44,200 --> 00:02:48,320 Sherbrooke to Montreal and this big public buses to, to have 50 00:02:48,330 --> 00:02:51,260 them have us visit their offices in the glass towers in the, in 51 00:02:51,270 --> 00:02:53,920 the nice buildings. And I noticed that there were 52 00:02:53,930 --> 00:02:56,010 really trying to get us into big law. 53 00:02:56,080 --> 00:02:58,530 And at the time it was very, very impressive, right. 54 00:02:58,540 --> 00:03:01,530 For your, your young law student, you're going into these 55 00:03:01,580 --> 00:03:05,690 very nice office buildings, high rises in downtown Montreal. 56 00:03:06,200 --> 00:03:09,580 You're kind of blown away by by what you're seeing all the 57 00:03:09,590 --> 00:03:13,170 luxury of the premium styles, the type of offices. 58 00:03:13,180 --> 00:03:18,230 And I notice that this is the probably the only path for, for, 59 00:03:18,240 --> 00:03:19,870 for a lawyer. I mean, what else can you do? 60 00:03:19,880 --> 00:03:22,350 Like this is the way what? This is what they're showing us. 61 00:03:22,500 --> 00:03:24,730 So that's very interesting on that beginning. 62 00:03:24,740 --> 00:03:27,750 And if I remember it right, I actually watched a few of the 63 00:03:27,760 --> 00:03:30,430 podcast that you've been on and, and you're telling a little bit 64 00:03:30,480 --> 00:03:33,280 about your story. And I'd love to reproduce this 65 00:03:33,290 --> 00:03:36,150 in the podcast for our listeners to get a chance to know you a 66 00:03:36,160 --> 00:03:39,390 little better. I understand COVID played a 67 00:03:39,400 --> 00:03:41,270 little bit of a role in your story. 68 00:03:41,340 --> 00:03:44,750 And then you also, you know, worked at a very traditional law 69 00:03:44,760 --> 00:03:48,410 firm at first, then went on to a very technological 1. 70 00:03:48,420 --> 00:03:51,010 So I'd love to hear all those kind of checkpoints in your 71 00:03:51,020 --> 00:03:53,510 career as well if you're comparing. 72 00:03:54,100 --> 00:03:56,530 Yes, of course. So when I was a law student, I 73 00:03:56,540 --> 00:03:59,590 got, I got like I said, rejected by all these big law firms. 74 00:03:59,600 --> 00:04:03,130 Someone in my network gave me the opportunity to join this 75 00:04:03,140 --> 00:04:07,490 boutique law firm in in Montreal doing a corporate and commercial 76 00:04:07,500 --> 00:04:09,270 law. So I got in just because of my 77 00:04:09,280 --> 00:04:11,630 network. So that's why I'm very huge on 78 00:04:11,920 --> 00:04:14,010 building a network from a very young age. 79 00:04:14,060 --> 00:04:17,630 So I got in and that's basically where I learned of the base. 80 00:04:17,820 --> 00:04:21,010 Everything I know about commercial and corporate law, it 81 00:04:21,019 --> 00:04:25,660 was very, it was a is a very good learning experience, but it 82 00:04:25,670 --> 00:04:30,250 was a very old school law firm such that all of the partners 83 00:04:30,260 --> 00:04:33,990 were basically 60 to 70 years years old, amazing lawyers and 84 00:04:34,000 --> 00:04:38,910 some of the best litigators and commercial attorneys in, in the 85 00:04:38,920 --> 00:04:41,110 city. And that's where I learned 86 00:04:41,120 --> 00:04:42,770 everything I would. They took me under their wing 87 00:04:42,780 --> 00:04:45,450 kind of and I learned everything over there. 88 00:04:45,520 --> 00:04:49,310 But a funny thing happened that basically everyone got laid off 89 00:04:49,320 --> 00:04:51,530 during COVID. All of our staff, basically 90 00:04:51,540 --> 00:04:55,550 every single lawyer for the partners obviously got laid off 91 00:04:55,560 --> 00:04:57,350 because there were no more files coming in. 92 00:04:57,360 --> 00:05:00,030 It was very risky to go in office those days. 93 00:05:00,300 --> 00:05:03,410 Every single lawyer except one got laid off. 94 00:05:03,520 --> 00:05:06,510 Claudia, let me ask you, do you, do you know, can you guess which 95 00:05:06,520 --> 00:05:09,870 lawyer did not get laid off? Well, I'm thinking it was 96 00:05:09,880 --> 00:05:14,100 probably the the youngest one that, you know, got the the 97 00:05:14,110 --> 00:05:16,140 cheapest pay. Absolutely. 98 00:05:16,150 --> 00:05:17,830 I was going to ask you, I was going to ask you, do you know 99 00:05:17,840 --> 00:05:20,500 why? And yes, not because I was the 100 00:05:20,510 --> 00:05:22,940 smartest lawyer, not because I was the best lawyer, only 101 00:05:22,950 --> 00:05:25,480 because I was the least expensive one for them, the 102 00:05:25,490 --> 00:05:27,540 cheapest one on payroll. I like how you put it. 103 00:05:27,670 --> 00:05:29,980 That's exactly it. I didn't get laid off because I 104 00:05:29,990 --> 00:05:32,840 was like very specific, like you said, cheap cost for them. 105 00:05:32,910 --> 00:05:34,490 And that's what I, what I learned. 106 00:05:34,500 --> 00:05:38,280 Like I'm not indispensable, you know, like, and then we started 107 00:05:38,290 --> 00:05:41,160 practicing a little bit remotely from, because we, we, we 108 00:05:41,170 --> 00:05:44,170 couldn't go into the office. And I realized that if I could 109 00:05:44,180 --> 00:05:47,880 do this from home, if I could do this from my kitchen or, or, or 110 00:05:47,890 --> 00:05:51,660 cottage up north, why can't I do this from anywhere in the world? 111 00:05:51,710 --> 00:05:54,820 I love traveling. I love always traveled as as a 112 00:05:54,830 --> 00:05:58,890 young kid, my dad used to work from a bunch of places around 113 00:05:58,900 --> 00:06:01,900 the world and used to take us on those trips. 114 00:06:02,010 --> 00:06:04,360 And then when I went into law school, we had, you know, big 115 00:06:04,370 --> 00:06:05,760 summers off. So I used to do a lot of 116 00:06:05,770 --> 00:06:07,480 travels. But then when I got into the 117 00:06:07,490 --> 00:06:10,530 corporate world, that was like, yeah, you could only have two 118 00:06:10,540 --> 00:06:14,120 weeks of vacation per year. So I could only travel for two 119 00:06:14,130 --> 00:06:15,510 weeks. I was like, this is not a good 120 00:06:15,520 --> 00:06:17,220 trade off. I've been traveling all my life. 121 00:06:17,230 --> 00:06:19,640 I love traveling. I feel the most alive on those 122 00:06:19,650 --> 00:06:23,540 On those trips, you'll learn so much, get a lot of experience, 123 00:06:23,550 --> 00:06:26,780 meet new cultures, make global connections, friends all over 124 00:06:26,790 --> 00:06:30,000 the place. And just narrowing that down to 125 00:06:30,010 --> 00:06:31,860 two weeks was not it was not for me. 126 00:06:31,930 --> 00:06:36,460 So I had this opportunity to to join a digital law firm named 127 00:06:36,470 --> 00:06:38,580 Renault Enco. Again, this opportunity came 128 00:06:38,590 --> 00:06:42,260 through my network and I took a leap of faith there because I 129 00:06:42,270 --> 00:06:47,150 went from working for a maybe 50 year old law firm, which was, 130 00:06:47,160 --> 00:06:49,860 yeah, like at the time was probably been running for 50 131 00:06:49,870 --> 00:06:53,340 years, to joining a law firm that had maybe under three years 132 00:06:53,390 --> 00:06:56,230 of operations. So joining a very established 133 00:06:56,240 --> 00:06:59,740 law firm, going from a very established law firm to a 134 00:06:59,750 --> 00:07:01,890 startup law firm. And it was a very risky move. 135 00:07:01,900 --> 00:07:04,320 And everyone around me told me not to do it. 136 00:07:04,570 --> 00:07:07,380 But my dad, my mentors, my friends, they said, are you 137 00:07:07,390 --> 00:07:08,680 crazy? Like, what are you going to do? 138 00:07:08,730 --> 00:07:11,720 You're joining a startup and you're going to leave the firm. 139 00:07:12,070 --> 00:07:14,800 And so you have a job now. Everyone's like laid off. 140 00:07:14,810 --> 00:07:17,940 Why are you going to do this? Not a smart move, but one of the 141 00:07:17,950 --> 00:07:21,660 main reasons why I did that switch was because that new 142 00:07:21,670 --> 00:07:24,270 firm, they didn't have any requirements to be in office. 143 00:07:24,280 --> 00:07:26,500 They said you could work from wherever they actually had a we 144 00:07:26,510 --> 00:07:30,070 work office Montreal, and they gave me access to their to their 145 00:07:30,080 --> 00:07:32,980 Wework card, which basically gives you access to all of their 146 00:07:32,990 --> 00:07:36,270 locations around the world. So that was basically two things 147 00:07:36,280 --> 00:07:38,170 colliding in my in my brain, right? 148 00:07:38,260 --> 00:07:41,070 I could travel and work at the same time and go to all the we 149 00:07:41,080 --> 00:07:42,890 works in the world. Wow, that was crazy. 150 00:07:42,980 --> 00:07:44,710 It was very attractive offer for me. 151 00:07:44,960 --> 00:07:48,510 So I took a leap of faith. I took a huge risk and I joined 152 00:07:48,520 --> 00:07:51,530 Renault. Renault law firm practice is 153 00:07:51,540 --> 00:07:54,450 basically a commercial law again, but more focusing on 154 00:07:54,460 --> 00:07:57,240 crypto and blockchain. So I developed some other type 155 00:07:57,250 --> 00:07:59,430 of skills over there. We learned a lot. 156 00:07:59,440 --> 00:08:03,150 So it was a smaller law firm and and I was I had more client 157 00:08:03,340 --> 00:08:06,620 management and having more interactions with clients rather 158 00:08:06,630 --> 00:08:10,180 than just execution. So I learned a lot. 159 00:08:10,270 --> 00:08:13,990 We had some great mentors, which I learned how to manage clients, 160 00:08:14,090 --> 00:08:16,870 the invoicing aspect, collecting sales. 161 00:08:16,880 --> 00:08:19,870 We learned a lot over there. So, so yeah, that's how I went 162 00:08:19,880 --> 00:08:22,330 from traditional law to digital first law. 163 00:08:22,370 --> 00:08:26,850 So I understand that your mentor lawyers were looking into 164 00:08:27,150 --> 00:08:31,930 transition from, you know, being in a law firm to having their 165 00:08:31,940 --> 00:08:35,010 own space and and growing their own projects. 166 00:08:35,020 --> 00:08:37,409 I wanted to hear a little bit about, you know, what are these 167 00:08:37,419 --> 00:08:40,490 lawyers, you know, giving up when they don't take that leap 168 00:08:40,530 --> 00:08:43,710 based on your experience and based on the kind of mentoring 169 00:08:43,720 --> 00:08:47,850 and teaching you do these days? Yeah, so running a law firm is 170 00:08:47,860 --> 00:08:50,210 is very different than than being a lawyer. 171 00:08:50,220 --> 00:08:53,410 That is execution, there's executing legal task, right. 172 00:08:53,480 --> 00:08:57,710 The trade-offs are are huge, but not to say that they're easy. 173 00:08:57,720 --> 00:09:01,110 But those lawyers are giving up a lot of their flexibility, 174 00:09:01,120 --> 00:09:04,350 freedom, autonomy. And also I would say they were 175 00:09:04,360 --> 00:09:07,530 giving up a lot of money because once you're on your own, you're 176 00:09:07,540 --> 00:09:09,270 not sharing the pie with anyone else. 177 00:09:09,320 --> 00:09:13,910 So in your, in a law firm have a usually fixed salary and then 178 00:09:13,920 --> 00:09:17,950 you have billable hour quotas that you have to hit when you're 179 00:09:17,960 --> 00:09:20,100 working for yourself, you have your own clients. 180 00:09:20,110 --> 00:09:23,750 You're, you're, you're billing your clients and you keep all of 181 00:09:23,760 --> 00:09:25,690 the margin. Where whereas in a firm, 182 00:09:25,740 --> 00:09:28,580 obviously the payments go to the firm and then you pay the salary 183 00:09:28,720 --> 00:09:30,290 that. So you don't have much 184 00:09:30,300 --> 00:09:33,280 flexibility of, of charging your rates. 185 00:09:33,290 --> 00:09:36,070 You have a salary that you negotiate beforehand. 186 00:09:36,140 --> 00:09:38,910 And that is it whether you work 100 hours or whether you work 40 187 00:09:38,920 --> 00:09:41,950 hours, usually you're paid. That doesn't reflect, doesn't 188 00:09:41,960 --> 00:09:45,280 reflect that. So for me, I wanted to have the 189 00:09:45,290 --> 00:09:47,450 sense of freedom of, of, of first of all, having control 190 00:09:47,460 --> 00:09:50,150 over my time because I wanted to spend more time with my family. 191 00:09:50,160 --> 00:09:52,630 I wanted to travel or more, I work out a lot. 192 00:09:52,740 --> 00:09:56,170 I wanted to be able to, to, to train as much as I wanted in the 193 00:09:56,180 --> 00:09:58,210 middle of the day, at night, whenever I wanted. 194 00:09:58,220 --> 00:10:01,380 So this, having this, I always save this money is unlimited 195 00:10:01,390 --> 00:10:04,470 time is limited. Time is the true, true asset 196 00:10:04,480 --> 00:10:06,490 here. But we shouldn't, I think the 197 00:10:06,500 --> 00:10:09,860 lawyers or anyone in general shouldn't only think about how 198 00:10:09,870 --> 00:10:11,810 do I get the most amount of money. 199 00:10:11,890 --> 00:10:15,080 You should think about how do you get most control over your 200 00:10:15,090 --> 00:10:17,840 time because that is the scarce asset, that is the limited, 201 00:10:17,930 --> 00:10:21,180 limited asset. So the trade off of having more 202 00:10:21,190 --> 00:10:24,290 money is kind of first of all, it's, it's maybe it's an 203 00:10:24,300 --> 00:10:26,360 illusion. I don't think, I think business 204 00:10:26,370 --> 00:10:28,920 owners at the end of the day make more money. 205 00:10:28,970 --> 00:10:32,000 But for young, young lawyers who don't have, let's say a client 206 00:10:32,010 --> 00:10:34,880 base, they're always have this, this fear of, or if I go out 207 00:10:34,890 --> 00:10:37,490 alone, I'm not going to be making as much money because I 208 00:10:37,500 --> 00:10:40,160 don't have clients. But that's just off in a, a 209 00:10:40,170 --> 00:10:42,040 fear. And it's an irrational fear 210 00:10:42,050 --> 00:10:44,740 because once you do have that client base, you're actually 211 00:10:44,750 --> 00:10:47,840 going to make a lot more money and you'll have control over 212 00:10:47,850 --> 00:10:49,120 your time. Amazing. 213 00:10:49,130 --> 00:10:52,180 I really appreciate you mentioning this aspect of, you 214 00:10:52,190 --> 00:10:56,790 know the the client base. I think that how we usually say 215 00:10:56,800 --> 00:11:00,690 it in law, in building a book of business and, you know, BD 216 00:11:00,700 --> 00:11:03,090 activities, business development, it's one of the 217 00:11:03,100 --> 00:11:05,930 things that make people fear a lot going on their own. 218 00:11:06,580 --> 00:11:09,980 A lot of my audience here in the podcast are younger lawyers, 219 00:11:09,990 --> 00:11:12,790 early career professionals. And I, I really appreciate you 220 00:11:12,800 --> 00:11:15,140 coming in and sharing a little bit of that because I, I feel 221 00:11:15,150 --> 00:11:18,850 like this is one of the fears right along with maybe having 222 00:11:18,860 --> 00:11:23,250 the, the technical aspect of still being underway as a young 223 00:11:23,260 --> 00:11:25,430 lawyer. So I wanted you to ask you, you 224 00:11:25,440 --> 00:11:28,630 know, for a junior lawyer listening to us right now, what 225 00:11:28,640 --> 00:11:31,790 are a few practical steps that they can take to start building 226 00:11:31,800 --> 00:11:34,490 that book of business? Be it should be a better 227 00:11:34,500 --> 00:11:37,310 associate if you want to stay at your firm or be it you know 228 00:11:37,320 --> 00:11:39,210 should should go on or on your own. 229 00:11:39,820 --> 00:11:42,210 That's a great question. I get this question a lot and 230 00:11:42,220 --> 00:11:45,430 obviously that's one of the main themes of my coaching is how to 231 00:11:45,440 --> 00:11:47,550 build a book of business as a young lawyer. 232 00:11:47,560 --> 00:11:50,940 How do you how you do that? So I'll share my story and, and 233 00:11:50,950 --> 00:11:53,710 then what I basically teach other lawyers is you should 234 00:11:53,720 --> 00:11:55,340 really have to work on your network. 235 00:11:55,390 --> 00:11:59,180 And most lawyers don't have time to, to build that network 236 00:11:59,190 --> 00:12:01,420 because they're always working. That's the tradeoff, right? 237 00:12:01,430 --> 00:12:04,240 That's when, that's why I'm so huge on having control over your 238 00:12:04,250 --> 00:12:08,220 time, because then you can do the, through the activities that 239 00:12:08,230 --> 00:12:12,190 help you build that network. But build everyone talks about 240 00:12:12,200 --> 00:12:14,920 building a network, but no one really knows how to network. 241 00:12:15,140 --> 00:12:16,660 And, and, and that is huge, right? 242 00:12:16,710 --> 00:12:21,040 So first of all, I would say over 70 to 80% of my clients are 243 00:12:21,050 --> 00:12:24,860 my friends or family. Having a big in person network 244 00:12:24,870 --> 00:12:28,400 already helps, but also LinkedIn is a very powerful networking 245 00:12:28,410 --> 00:12:30,300 engine. But how to build that network? 246 00:12:30,310 --> 00:12:32,960 You just have to be a, a good, a good person, right, right. 247 00:12:32,970 --> 00:12:36,500 A good human who, who, who is valuable in the marketplace, 248 00:12:36,510 --> 00:12:39,700 right, If you're able to, And this is not to say only 249 00:12:39,710 --> 00:12:41,940 extroverts could be have a good network. 250 00:12:42,230 --> 00:12:45,030 I think introverts as well can have the same impact. 251 00:12:45,040 --> 00:12:46,230 Because I get this question a lot. 252 00:12:46,240 --> 00:12:48,940 Like I'm not very social. I don't know what to say that 253 00:12:48,950 --> 00:12:51,330 all can change and that that that doesn't make a huge 254 00:12:51,340 --> 00:12:54,420 difference. So like I said, practically most 255 00:12:54,430 --> 00:12:57,220 of my clients are my friends are come from my friends or their 256 00:12:57,230 --> 00:13:00,360 friends are friends. So just being a decent person 257 00:13:00,370 --> 00:13:04,560 and, and, and sharing what you know is, is, is a huge start. 258 00:13:04,660 --> 00:13:08,460 And then being very mindful about networking anywhere you 259 00:13:08,470 --> 00:13:12,620 go, anywhere you are, you can meet someone that could either 260 00:13:12,630 --> 00:13:14,720 be a client or refer you a client. 261 00:13:14,790 --> 00:13:17,770 And a lot of lawyers when they think of networking, they think 262 00:13:17,780 --> 00:13:19,970 of networking events. They think of like these 263 00:13:19,980 --> 00:13:23,290 conferences that they have to go to, which obviously helps, but 264 00:13:23,340 --> 00:13:25,910 they think of they have to go to these networking events and like 265 00:13:25,920 --> 00:13:27,950 talk to people. And sometimes it's 266 00:13:27,990 --> 00:13:30,010 uncomfortable, right? You got to go outside your 267 00:13:30,020 --> 00:13:32,250 comfort zone. I don't think that's the best 268 00:13:32,260 --> 00:13:33,890 way of networking. That is a good way. 269 00:13:33,900 --> 00:13:36,950 But the best way of networking is just in your day-to-day life, 270 00:13:36,960 --> 00:13:40,820 wherever you are, you should always be thinking about that's 271 00:13:40,830 --> 00:13:42,800 working. And when are you at your these 272 00:13:42,810 --> 00:13:45,500 networking events? Peoples, other people's guards 273 00:13:45,510 --> 00:13:47,690 are up there expecting to kind of be sold something. 274 00:13:47,700 --> 00:13:51,320 They're expecting to, to like free for, for people to come up 275 00:13:51,330 --> 00:13:53,980 and, and I don't know, ask for business cards or anything. 276 00:13:53,990 --> 00:13:57,510 But the best for me, the best based on network is it's going 277 00:13:57,520 --> 00:14:00,170 to sound funny, but in day-to-day activities like you 278 00:14:00,180 --> 00:14:03,880 at the gym or I don't know, you're the restaurant or for my 279 00:14:03,890 --> 00:14:06,740 case, the beach is a huge networking place just to talk to 280 00:14:06,750 --> 00:14:09,360 people when they're, when they're just relaxing, chilling 281 00:14:09,370 --> 00:14:12,060 outside, not in a professional setting. 282 00:14:12,070 --> 00:14:15,400 Because like I said, it's very different to talk to someone 283 00:14:15,450 --> 00:14:18,060 outside of work setting because you get to know them. 284 00:14:18,110 --> 00:14:20,150 You get to know the real them, right, when they're, when 285 00:14:20,160 --> 00:14:22,740 they're actually relaxing, having time or, or, or, or 286 00:14:22,750 --> 00:14:24,950 working out. Like I was at the gym yesterday, 287 00:14:24,960 --> 00:14:27,230 I met three very, very interesting people. 288 00:14:27,300 --> 00:14:30,230 And like my gym session turned basically into a networking 289 00:14:30,240 --> 00:14:33,630 event because like I, I took three very and three cool people 290 00:14:33,640 --> 00:14:35,630 in and which I got their phone numbers. 291 00:14:35,640 --> 00:14:37,850 And then we, we vibed really well. 292 00:14:37,860 --> 00:14:40,830 And those are definitely going to be either clients or they're 293 00:14:40,840 --> 00:14:42,430 going to refer me clients, right. 294 00:14:42,500 --> 00:14:45,370 So you don't necessarily my, my, my point is that you don't 295 00:14:45,380 --> 00:14:48,710 necessarily have to go to these networking events in order to 296 00:14:49,000 --> 00:14:51,310 grow your network. You just have to be mindful 297 00:14:51,320 --> 00:14:53,330 about it. And anywhere you are, every 298 00:14:53,340 --> 00:14:57,510 single day, it's an opportunity for you to grow that client base 299 00:14:58,000 --> 00:15:01,510 and to have these referral partners by just being a nice 300 00:15:01,520 --> 00:15:04,810 person and asking about them and being interesting and being 301 00:15:04,820 --> 00:15:06,690 interested genuinely in other people. 302 00:15:06,920 --> 00:15:08,640 Fantastic. Well, thank you so much for for 303 00:15:08,650 --> 00:15:10,520 sharing those. I believe in the beginning of 304 00:15:10,530 --> 00:15:12,780 our podcast, you were talking about, you know, the little 305 00:15:12,830 --> 00:15:16,280 misconceptions or just general stereotypes that people might 306 00:15:16,290 --> 00:15:19,480 have of someone who is remote worker in general. 307 00:15:19,850 --> 00:15:23,000 And I want to hear you, you know, you, you build a fully 308 00:15:23,010 --> 00:15:26,160 remote practice. You, you, you advertise yourself 309 00:15:26,170 --> 00:15:28,860 as a remote lawyer location independent practice. 310 00:15:28,910 --> 00:15:31,700 So what the lawyers tend to get wrong about that? 311 00:15:31,710 --> 00:15:35,560 That path or that lifestyle? I guess they what they get to 312 00:15:35,570 --> 00:15:38,960 got wrong is they think it's easy or they think you're not 313 00:15:38,970 --> 00:15:42,360 working as much, which obviously none of those are, are are true. 314 00:15:43,150 --> 00:15:46,780 It's not easy to be a remote lawyer or nomad lawyer because 315 00:15:46,790 --> 00:15:50,250 you have to have a very, you have to be very disciplined and 316 00:15:50,260 --> 00:15:51,880 to be able to focus on your task. 317 00:15:51,890 --> 00:15:56,290 If you can't sit anywhere in a coffee shop wherever it is in 318 00:15:56,300 --> 00:16:00,220 the lobby and where, wherever and folk can't focus on your 319 00:16:00,230 --> 00:16:02,460 task, then you're not meant to be remote lawyer because there 320 00:16:02,470 --> 00:16:05,630 are distractions are everywhere. I, I hear a lot of lawyers say 321 00:16:05,640 --> 00:16:08,890 if I don't go to the office, if I work from home, I can't focus. 322 00:16:10,740 --> 00:16:13,670 They have this misconception of, of, of being easy. 323 00:16:13,680 --> 00:16:15,320 It's not easy. How you really have to be 324 00:16:15,330 --> 00:16:17,350 focused. You, you have priorities and you 325 00:16:17,360 --> 00:16:19,330 gotta get them done. Like you have clients waiting 326 00:16:19,340 --> 00:16:22,290 for results. They have given you their 327 00:16:22,300 --> 00:16:24,550 mandates. If you're unable to do that, 328 00:16:24,560 --> 00:16:29,030 prioritize that versus wandering around in a new city and you 329 00:16:29,040 --> 00:16:30,680 won't be able to be a remote lawyer, right? 330 00:16:30,690 --> 00:16:33,210 Because it's very, once you start traveling and working at 331 00:16:33,220 --> 00:16:35,810 the same time, it's very could be distracting because you're in 332 00:16:35,820 --> 00:16:37,030 the new city. You want to explore, right? 333 00:16:37,040 --> 00:16:39,370 That happens to me often. But sometimes you just got to 334 00:16:39,380 --> 00:16:41,170 sit down and, and, and do what you got to do. 335 00:16:41,240 --> 00:16:44,350 And then that's, I guess one of the harder parts of not being 336 00:16:44,360 --> 00:16:47,000 tied to an office and, and having supervision over you, 337 00:16:47,010 --> 00:16:48,220 right? You don't have anyone telling 338 00:16:48,230 --> 00:16:50,060 you that you need to do this. It's only your client, but 339 00:16:50,070 --> 00:16:51,250 they're, they're not there, right? 340 00:16:51,500 --> 00:16:54,730 So you have a partner or a boss that's saying, Hey, you, I need 341 00:16:54,740 --> 00:16:57,820 this by 4:00 PM. It's only, it's just just, you 342 00:16:57,830 --> 00:17:00,980 have to have that self-control. And then it's a muscle that you 343 00:17:00,990 --> 00:17:02,610 you can exercise. Fantastic. 344 00:17:02,620 --> 00:17:04,660 Well, I appreciate you sharing those points. 345 00:17:04,730 --> 00:17:08,180 And now that you coach other lawyers through this transition, 346 00:17:08,230 --> 00:17:12,020 what separates maybe the ones that can take off and and take 347 00:17:12,030 --> 00:17:15,900 action right away from the ones who maybe take a little longer 348 00:17:15,910 --> 00:17:19,290 have as a slow start? I'm not sure if it's just about 349 00:17:19,300 --> 00:17:23,140 personality, but maybe does it have to do with, you know, the 350 00:17:23,150 --> 00:17:27,150 readiness to action And and if So, what are some of the things 351 00:17:27,160 --> 00:17:28,720 you see that that sets them apart? 352 00:17:28,730 --> 00:17:31,720 And that I appreciate that you just mentioned, you know, being 353 00:17:31,730 --> 00:17:35,500 able to focus in different locations is a big one and for 354 00:17:35,510 --> 00:17:37,980 sure still that can be acquired and developed. 355 00:17:38,050 --> 00:17:40,750 But what are some of the overall thoughts you might have on that? 356 00:17:40,840 --> 00:17:43,350 That's a great question, Claudio, and I'm, allow me to 357 00:17:43,360 --> 00:17:45,690 kind of dissect your, your question a little bit. 358 00:17:45,740 --> 00:17:49,890 The first part is the lawyers who hire coaches are already 359 00:17:49,900 --> 00:17:53,010 going to be a lot more successful because that means 360 00:17:53,020 --> 00:17:54,730 they're ready to learn and they're coachable. 361 00:17:54,840 --> 00:17:58,330 The, the, the biggest issue that lawyers have is that they're so 362 00:17:58,340 --> 00:18:00,300 competent. They're so knowledgeable that 363 00:18:00,310 --> 00:18:04,010 they think they know everything and every aspect of, of, of kind 364 00:18:04,020 --> 00:18:05,720 of life. So they're not very coachable. 365 00:18:05,730 --> 00:18:08,530 They have this ego. So lawyers who already hire a 366 00:18:08,540 --> 00:18:11,270 coach that just tells you that they're ready to learn and that 367 00:18:11,280 --> 00:18:13,370 they're ready to apply and learn new skills. 368 00:18:13,420 --> 00:18:17,450 So that's the first aspect why I say this is before starting this 369 00:18:17,460 --> 00:18:20,430 coaching practice, I used to give a lot of advice to other 370 00:18:20,440 --> 00:18:23,320 lawyers on how to how to do things differently. 371 00:18:23,390 --> 00:18:26,100 And I used to get free advice. The feedback I got or the 372 00:18:26,110 --> 00:18:28,620 answers I got was Ohri. That's a, that's a great tip. 373 00:18:28,690 --> 00:18:31,200 I should implement that or I should do that. 374 00:18:31,310 --> 00:18:35,410 But they, they never did because the, the, the, the advice was 375 00:18:35,420 --> 00:18:37,050 free. But then I started when I 376 00:18:37,060 --> 00:18:40,170 started charging for those coaching sessions and I started 377 00:18:40,180 --> 00:18:42,650 having these programs, That's when people started to pay 378 00:18:42,660 --> 00:18:44,650 attention. Because when you pay, you pay 379 00:18:44,660 --> 00:18:47,010 attention, there's that value in, in that advice. 380 00:18:47,080 --> 00:18:51,350 So the reason why I say this is that you asked what, what do 381 00:18:51,400 --> 00:18:53,530 lawyers have? The ones where, let's say more 382 00:18:53,540 --> 00:18:57,150 successful in, in, in aid to, to, to throw, to, to go 383 00:18:57,160 --> 00:18:59,810 independent into, or to have their own practices is first of 384 00:18:59,820 --> 00:19:02,750 all, they have to be, they have to be ready to, to learn and, 385 00:19:02,760 --> 00:19:05,870 and to implement new stuff. Now, once they're in, once 386 00:19:05,880 --> 00:19:08,450 they're being coached, what is the difference between the 387 00:19:08,460 --> 00:19:11,710 successful ones and let's say not the, the, the, the, the, so 388 00:19:11,780 --> 00:19:15,630 the less successful ones, I would say consistency. 389 00:19:15,700 --> 00:19:18,820 So the the lawyers who show up every week like I, I do a call 390 00:19:18,830 --> 00:19:21,780 every week for three months. The lawyers who show up to a 391 00:19:21,790 --> 00:19:25,280 call already prepared and having done, let's say, the assignments 392 00:19:25,290 --> 00:19:29,070 or the homeworks that I give them consistently, I see a huge, 393 00:19:29,880 --> 00:19:32,270 I see a huge difference between those two types of lawyers 394 00:19:32,280 --> 00:19:35,940 because being consistently good is much better than being 395 00:19:35,950 --> 00:19:39,170 occasionally great, right? And if you can show up every 396 00:19:39,180 --> 00:19:42,210 day, every week and do the things, the little habits, if 397 00:19:42,220 --> 00:19:44,510 you could, if you could implement those, they'll go a 398 00:19:44,520 --> 00:19:46,970 long way. And, and, and the things that 399 00:19:46,980 --> 00:19:49,730 you need to do are basically habits that you need to do on a 400 00:19:49,740 --> 00:19:51,430 daily basis or on a weekly basis. 401 00:19:51,500 --> 00:19:54,250 And they're very easy to do. Like, I don't know, posting on 402 00:19:54,260 --> 00:19:57,350 LinkedIn that's or showing up or, or, or whatever it is. 403 00:19:57,360 --> 00:20:00,390 They're very easy habits, but easy habits are easy to do, but 404 00:20:00,400 --> 00:20:03,210 they're also easy not to do. So a lot of lawyers skip them. 405 00:20:03,280 --> 00:20:06,430 A lot of people skip them. So the ones who can do it on a 406 00:20:06,500 --> 00:20:10,030 on a regular basis without kind of seeing the results at first 407 00:20:10,040 --> 00:20:12,850 because it takes a little time until the ball starts to get 408 00:20:12,860 --> 00:20:15,110 rolling. The ones who can do it even 409 00:20:15,120 --> 00:20:17,530 without seeing those results are like just relying on faith. 410 00:20:17,540 --> 00:20:21,530 And my advice are the ones who will be more successful and who 411 00:20:21,540 --> 00:20:25,090 are more successful versus the others who do it once, do it 412 00:20:25,100 --> 00:20:27,220 twice, and then kind of kind of give up because they don't see 413 00:20:27,230 --> 00:20:30,130 results. I think that is a the most the 414 00:20:30,140 --> 00:20:33,450 biggest indicator. Fantastic to wrap up today's 415 00:20:33,460 --> 00:20:36,330 episode, really appreciate all that you've shared so far. 416 00:20:36,400 --> 00:20:39,290 And I wanted to focus again on those early career 417 00:20:39,300 --> 00:20:42,970 professionals, but maybe thinking about the the area that 418 00:20:42,980 --> 00:20:46,270 got into the coach bus and when she visited the big offices, you 419 00:20:46,280 --> 00:20:49,590 know, those early professionals who maybe feel a little pressure 420 00:20:49,600 --> 00:20:51,130 to follow the traditional routes. 421 00:20:51,140 --> 00:20:54,010 What's one piece of advice that you give then about, you know, 422 00:20:54,020 --> 00:20:56,740 building a career on their own terms to wrap up today's? 423 00:20:57,270 --> 00:21:03,190 One piece of advice is to not only focus on the law and the, 424 00:21:03,250 --> 00:21:06,160 and how to execute the legal mandates. 425 00:21:06,230 --> 00:21:10,000 Obviously that is very important, but you also have to 426 00:21:10,010 --> 00:21:13,620 build your network at the same time in parallel because running 427 00:21:13,630 --> 00:21:16,760 a business is, is very, very different than just being a 428 00:21:16,770 --> 00:21:20,790 lawyer who does the mandates. So I think for any lawyer, young 429 00:21:20,800 --> 00:21:24,180 lawyer that is listening, the big best piece of advice that I 430 00:21:24,190 --> 00:21:27,440 can give you is to first of all, learn sales. 431 00:21:27,510 --> 00:21:31,700 Sales is a very, very important how to communicate with other 432 00:21:31,710 --> 00:21:33,460 people, how to communicate your offer. 433 00:21:33,470 --> 00:21:35,880 But these are extremely important skills in any 434 00:21:35,890 --> 00:21:38,940 industry, but especially for lawyers because we are not 435 00:21:38,950 --> 00:21:41,880 taught that in law school and lawyers don't naturally, they 436 00:21:41,890 --> 00:21:46,230 don't have this ability to sell. I think that is huge. 437 00:21:46,300 --> 00:21:48,310 I'll leave you with a thought, Claudio. 438 00:21:48,630 --> 00:21:52,350 I was reading an article recently and it said that the 439 00:21:52,360 --> 00:21:55,910 lawyers who make the most money or the lawyers who are the rain 440 00:21:55,920 --> 00:21:58,950 makers, quote UN quote, they're not the lawyers who know the law 441 00:21:58,960 --> 00:22:02,490 the best or who are the most, who have the most expertise or 442 00:22:02,500 --> 00:22:04,130 who are the most competent lawyers. 443 00:22:04,200 --> 00:22:06,670 The lawyers who make the most money or the the rain. 444 00:22:06,680 --> 00:22:11,510 Rain makers are the activators. And activators mean the ones who 445 00:22:11,520 --> 00:22:16,030 have a, a huge network and they can connect people together, 446 00:22:16,040 --> 00:22:19,790 They can activate relationships. So the deals come to them and 447 00:22:19,800 --> 00:22:22,740 they make the deals happen. If you're able to be that type 448 00:22:22,750 --> 00:22:25,140 of lawyer, which obviously you have to rely on your network and 449 00:22:25,150 --> 00:22:27,720 I'll also on your communication skills and kind of just make 450 00:22:27,730 --> 00:22:30,520 things happen. Those are the lawyers that get 451 00:22:30,530 --> 00:22:32,860 paid the most. So if you want to build a book 452 00:22:32,870 --> 00:22:35,170 of business and and obviously make a lot of money so that you 453 00:22:35,180 --> 00:22:38,040 can have this type of freedom that I'm talking about, you 454 00:22:38,050 --> 00:22:41,900 really, really have to work on those quote on quote soft skills 455 00:22:41,950 --> 00:22:45,180 rather than just like reading the law and being the best or 456 00:22:45,190 --> 00:22:49,120 being the most up to date on the legal knowledge. 457 00:22:49,170 --> 00:22:52,360 I think that is the most important thing that has helped 458 00:22:52,370 --> 00:22:55,440 me and I've received this advice from my mentors and it couldn't 459 00:22:55,450 --> 00:22:56,480 be further from the. Truth. 460 00:22:56,530 --> 00:22:58,220 Amazing. Thank you so much, Mike, for 461 00:22:58,230 --> 00:23:00,900 making the time to be here in the podcast and thank you all 462 00:23:00,910 --> 00:23:02,340 for joining into today's episode. 463 00:23:02,410 --> 00:23:04,250 Thank you, Claudia. I really appreciate this.