1 00:00:12,870 --> 00:00:16,460 Welcome to studying law around the world I'm Claudio Claus in 2 00:00:16,470 --> 00:00:19,360 each episode, I talk with lawyers, law students and 3 00:00:19,370 --> 00:00:22,750 professors from different parts of the world to talk about legal 4 00:00:22,760 --> 00:00:26,200 education, careers, and what the profession looks like in. 5 00:00:26,210 --> 00:00:28,930 Real life. We talk about the hard parts, 6 00:00:28,940 --> 00:00:30,630 the surprises. And the decisions. 7 00:00:30,640 --> 00:00:32,860 That shaped their paths. Whether? 8 00:00:32,870 --> 00:00:35,670 You're planning to study abroad, thinking about working in 9 00:00:35,680 --> 00:00:39,260 another legal system, or just curious about how law works 10 00:00:39,330 --> 00:00:42,400 around the world? This podcast is for you. 11 00:00:45,010 --> 00:00:48,020 Whether you're studying law in Mumbai or practicing in 12 00:00:48,030 --> 00:00:51,960 Manhattan, Rev can help you transcribe and analyze all your 13 00:00:51,970 --> 00:00:57,130 case materials with verifiablecitations.learnmore@rev.com. 14 00:01:08,310 --> 00:01:11,380 Should they have the opportunity to be interviewing Dylan Gibbs? 15 00:01:11,470 --> 00:01:15,140 He's a former litigator turned into our community builder, and 16 00:01:15,150 --> 00:01:17,620 he's now building the top community for our Canadian 17 00:01:17,630 --> 00:01:19,640 lawyers. Thank you so much for joining us 18 00:01:19,650 --> 00:01:22,410 today, Dylan. And to start us off today, could 19 00:01:22,420 --> 00:01:24,680 you please introduce yourself and share a little bit about 20 00:01:24,740 --> 00:01:26,940 yourself to your audience here? Yeah, sure. 21 00:01:26,950 --> 00:01:31,900 So I went to law school at U of A in Edmonton. 22 00:01:31,910 --> 00:01:35,490 I grew up in Calgary, AB boy clerked after law school. 23 00:01:35,500 --> 00:01:38,730 So I finished law school 28 to the Alberta Court of Appeal and 24 00:01:38,740 --> 00:01:41,820 then the Supreme Court of Canada here in Ottawa, which is where I 25 00:01:41,830 --> 00:01:44,570 now live. Litigated for a bit, did some 26 00:01:44,620 --> 00:01:48,480 big law commercial litigation that Bennett Jones blog in 27 00:01:48,490 --> 00:01:51,830 Ottawa and then went to the Ottawa County Attorney's Office 28 00:01:51,840 --> 00:01:55,250 and was prosecuting for for a bit there a couple of years ago. 29 00:01:55,260 --> 00:01:59,410 Decided to leave the practice of law behind and see if I could 30 00:01:59,460 --> 00:02:02,690 make some changes to the profession through 31 00:02:02,700 --> 00:02:04,740 entrepreneurship. And so that's what I've been 32 00:02:04,750 --> 00:02:07,330 focusing on. I started writing a newsletter 33 00:02:07,340 --> 00:02:10,770 in 2023. I guess it would have been kind 34 00:02:10,780 --> 00:02:14,550 of just a lighthearted take on legal news, a little bit of 35 00:02:14,560 --> 00:02:19,870 humor, bring some levity to the profession and saw from my 36 00:02:19,880 --> 00:02:22,290 audience and readership that there was a real need for 37 00:02:22,300 --> 00:02:25,550 community and a desire for the people reading the newsletter to 38 00:02:25,560 --> 00:02:29,530 connect with one another. And I've used that to launch in 39 00:02:29,540 --> 00:02:34,190 Laws, which is a community for Canadian lawyers, connecting 40 00:02:34,200 --> 00:02:38,070 them through online discussion, some more casual down to earth 41 00:02:38,120 --> 00:02:40,870 in person events, online events and CPD. 42 00:02:40,880 --> 00:02:43,120 And that's that's the focus there. 43 00:02:43,130 --> 00:02:46,190 I've been working on that. We just launched officially last 44 00:02:46,200 --> 00:02:48,730 week, but that's been my focus for for the last few months is 45 00:02:48,740 --> 00:02:51,610 getting that off the ground. In the meantime, the newsletters 46 00:02:51,620 --> 00:02:54,530 on pause, but it'll it'll come back as soon as the community is 47 00:02:54,540 --> 00:02:56,120 up and rolling. No, that's amazing. 48 00:02:56,130 --> 00:02:58,820 That's so exciting. So you, you mentioned about this 49 00:02:58,830 --> 00:03:01,890 need for community, but I also read that you, you wrote a lot 50 00:03:01,960 --> 00:03:05,260 and spoke about how lonely the profession can feel in, in lots 51 00:03:05,270 --> 00:03:07,430 of different ways. So I'd love to hear a little 52 00:03:07,440 --> 00:03:10,030 more on that. What moments, maybe even in your 53 00:03:10,040 --> 00:03:13,160 own career, that made that reality be clear to you? 54 00:03:13,230 --> 00:03:15,840 Yeah, I have. I mean, I finished law school, 55 00:03:15,850 --> 00:03:22,140 like I said, 2018, most of my years practicing were post 56 00:03:22,190 --> 00:03:24,960 COVID. But I do have a snapshot of what 57 00:03:24,970 --> 00:03:27,620 practicing was like in a pre COVID world. 58 00:03:27,630 --> 00:03:29,800 And I think there's a very big shift there. 59 00:03:29,810 --> 00:03:33,420 And talking to lawyers have been who've been doing this a lot 60 00:03:33,430 --> 00:03:36,400 longer than I have, they've noticed that shift in a in an 61 00:03:36,410 --> 00:03:38,880 even more pronounced way. It's much more obvious for them. 62 00:03:38,890 --> 00:03:42,060 And so those are some of the moments. 63 00:03:42,130 --> 00:03:45,280 You know, I don't know about specific moments, but when I 64 00:03:45,290 --> 00:03:47,990 talk to lawyers who have been out this longer than I am, the 65 00:03:48,240 --> 00:03:52,270 they tell me the profession used to feel much more collaborative, 66 00:03:52,320 --> 00:03:56,610 much more, you know, we're in this together kind of softer. 67 00:03:56,620 --> 00:03:58,890 And there's, there's much more of an edge to it now. 68 00:03:58,960 --> 00:04:02,610 I think in part that comes from more Zoom communication, less 69 00:04:02,620 --> 00:04:06,390 seeing each other in person. It's easier to have a bit of a 70 00:04:06,400 --> 00:04:09,290 bit more of an edge to the way you treat people when you're not 71 00:04:09,300 --> 00:04:10,790 seeing them as much face to face. 72 00:04:10,800 --> 00:04:13,070 And you don't have to, you know, it takes a lot of the human 73 00:04:13,080 --> 00:04:15,750 element out of it. And I certainly found that when 74 00:04:15,760 --> 00:04:18,810 I was practicing, you know, up until at least being in the 75 00:04:18,820 --> 00:04:21,260 Crown Attorney's office where you're in court virtually every 76 00:04:21,269 --> 00:04:24,350 day and, and there is a lot of in person stuff, everything was, 77 00:04:24,420 --> 00:04:27,470 you know, more remote. And that human connection 78 00:04:27,480 --> 00:04:31,090 element was, was removed. And I didn't like that as much 79 00:04:31,100 --> 00:04:35,410 as, you know, the moments I had pre COVID practicing where from 80 00:04:35,420 --> 00:04:38,430 was in the office, you know, you're walking down the hall, 81 00:04:38,440 --> 00:04:42,680 seeing each other, popping in, in, in doorways and just in 82 00:04:42,690 --> 00:04:46,640 general working with on another to help each other get the job 83 00:04:46,650 --> 00:04:49,000 done. And so I think that's been a big 84 00:04:49,010 --> 00:04:51,210 shift. And that's that's been one of 85 00:04:51,220 --> 00:04:53,740 the biggest drivers of people feeling like the profession is 86 00:04:53,750 --> 00:04:56,460 is a bit more lonely. There's just a major cultural 87 00:04:56,470 --> 00:04:58,040 shift that's happened since COVID. 88 00:04:58,050 --> 00:05:00,560 And some of it's coming back with people working in person 89 00:05:00,570 --> 00:05:04,240 and returned in person events, But it's very, very slow. 90 00:05:04,250 --> 00:05:08,760 And it takes making a very deliberate effort to bring that 91 00:05:08,770 --> 00:05:11,200 human connection. Back perfect that that makes so 92 00:05:11,210 --> 00:05:14,420 much sense and you know, it even got me thinking you're all of 93 00:05:14,430 --> 00:05:18,060 these, you know, sharp edge and all of that have also to do with 94 00:05:18,070 --> 00:05:20,740 with the world as a hoe. I feel like if we could look 95 00:05:20,750 --> 00:05:24,200 into pre COVID post COVID I feel like overall the feeling of 96 00:05:24,210 --> 00:05:27,360 polarization has also like. Overall. 97 00:05:27,370 --> 00:05:30,760 Feels like it, it maybe got a little more polarized or not, 98 00:05:30,810 --> 00:05:34,440 but I wonder if that also creeped into the legal 99 00:05:34,450 --> 00:05:37,090 profession and maybe that's part of all of that It it's 100 00:05:37,100 --> 00:05:39,940 definitely something very interesting to you to think of. 101 00:05:39,950 --> 00:05:42,980 Yeah, I mean that very well could be It's hard. 102 00:05:43,050 --> 00:05:45,720 I don't think I'm the best sort of person to think about things 103 00:05:45,730 --> 00:05:48,720 in such a meta way. It's easy for me to just, you 104 00:05:48,730 --> 00:05:51,680 know, get focused on on my day-to-day and and not the 105 00:05:51,690 --> 00:05:53,800 bigger picture, but I think that's probably right. 106 00:05:53,930 --> 00:05:57,320 I think a big part of it too, Claudio is, is just my 107 00:05:57,330 --> 00:06:01,080 personality. I'm a first generation lawyer, 108 00:06:01,150 --> 00:06:04,740 first generation, you know, undergraduate degree. 109 00:06:04,750 --> 00:06:10,290 It's I'm a very casual and down to earth kind of person. 110 00:06:10,300 --> 00:06:14,710 And so a lot of the formality and buttoned up stuffiness that 111 00:06:14,720 --> 00:06:17,170 comes with practicing law or that's associated with 112 00:06:17,180 --> 00:06:19,110 practicing law is very foreign to me. 113 00:06:19,180 --> 00:06:22,970 And so I think that alone made me feel isolated in the 114 00:06:22,980 --> 00:06:27,040 profession. And what I've found, you know, I 115 00:06:27,050 --> 00:06:30,510 started writing hearsay, my newsletter and grew that to I 116 00:06:30,520 --> 00:06:33,470 think it's just over 6700 subscribers now. 117 00:06:33,560 --> 00:06:36,110 And that made me realize these people are out there. 118 00:06:36,120 --> 00:06:39,530 There's people who want to be a little bit more casual, you 119 00:06:39,540 --> 00:06:43,410 know, let let a bit of humor into the profession, talk to 120 00:06:43,420 --> 00:06:47,210 each other in a much more human and friend like way without that 121 00:06:47,220 --> 00:06:52,260 edge and level of stuffiness that tends to come with law talk 122 00:06:52,270 --> 00:06:55,420 in the legal profession. And now through launching in 123 00:06:55,430 --> 00:06:57,460 laws, I've seen that even more so, right? 124 00:06:57,470 --> 00:07:02,020 There's a community of these people coming together and it's 125 00:07:02,030 --> 00:07:04,880 amazing. I mean, when I e-mail lawyers, 126 00:07:04,890 --> 00:07:08,700 I'm always self-conscious of using hey as a greeting because 127 00:07:08,710 --> 00:07:12,720 I know how I viewed that. And in a professional practice, 128 00:07:12,730 --> 00:07:14,740 you know, you're not emailing opposing counsel and saying, 129 00:07:14,750 --> 00:07:17,180 Hey, how's it going? Since launching in laws, though, 130 00:07:17,190 --> 00:07:21,280 the just the tone of the discussion in our online space 131 00:07:21,290 --> 00:07:23,490 is just so much more casual and friendly, right? 132 00:07:23,500 --> 00:07:26,830 You're seeing the haze, you're seeing people let their guard 133 00:07:26,840 --> 00:07:29,780 down a bit and open up and just be more genuine. 134 00:07:29,790 --> 00:07:34,670 And that's really nice that that makes me feel good. 135 00:07:34,680 --> 00:07:37,350 And that for me is a big piece of what was lacking when I was 136 00:07:37,360 --> 00:07:40,190 practicing. Is I crazy here? 137 00:07:40,200 --> 00:07:44,290 Am I the only one who doesn't like this overly polished, 138 00:07:44,300 --> 00:07:49,030 perfect, perfectly presented stuffiness that we all tend to 139 00:07:49,040 --> 00:07:51,450 be doing here? And it turns out, no, I'm I'm 140 00:07:51,460 --> 00:07:54,770 not alone in that. But you have to seek out the 141 00:07:54,780 --> 00:07:57,190 people who are interested in doing things differently. 142 00:07:57,260 --> 00:08:00,450 And like I say, make a very intentional effort so that it 143 00:08:00,460 --> 00:08:03,470 doesn't feel quite so isolating. That's amazing. 144 00:08:03,520 --> 00:08:06,430 So you mentioned a lot of a lot of the needs and in a lot of the 145 00:08:06,440 --> 00:08:09,490 downsides to what we had today mentioned a little bit about 146 00:08:09,540 --> 00:08:11,570 what what you're planning to build. 147 00:08:11,610 --> 00:08:14,630 So can you tell me a little more about how in laws than is 148 00:08:14,640 --> 00:08:17,350 different from what we have already? 149 00:08:17,500 --> 00:08:20,460 So you mentioned, you know, the aspects of being a little more 150 00:08:20,470 --> 00:08:24,240 informal and having that really spirit of a community, but I'd, 151 00:08:24,250 --> 00:08:27,180 I'd love to hear more on that. Yeah, there's a few things that 152 00:08:27,190 --> 00:08:30,500 set it apart. And you know, I don't think that 153 00:08:30,510 --> 00:08:35,780 there's any great comparators. I don't want to set it up as, 154 00:08:35,789 --> 00:08:40,260 say, a competitor to the CBA or your Canadian Bar Association 155 00:08:40,270 --> 00:08:42,640 membership, right? The those sorts of organizations 156 00:08:42,710 --> 00:08:46,740 have very different purposes. There's an advocacy component 157 00:08:46,750 --> 00:08:50,390 that is just looking to, to reform the law and advocate for 158 00:08:50,400 --> 00:08:54,080 the interests of lawyers. So what sets in laws apart, I 159 00:08:54,090 --> 00:08:57,460 think #1 is it's not an advocacy organization, right? 160 00:08:57,470 --> 00:09:02,460 It's, it's 100% devoted to bringing lawyers together, 161 00:09:02,470 --> 00:09:05,800 connecting them and making their practice better by sharing 162 00:09:05,810 --> 00:09:09,110 collective knowledge, making things feel a bit more human so 163 00:09:09,120 --> 00:09:12,400 that we can enjoy practicing and really treat it like a team 164 00:09:12,410 --> 00:09:14,880 approach with people who aren't just in your firm but are 165 00:09:14,890 --> 00:09:18,070 practicing across the country. The online discussion space that 166 00:09:18,080 --> 00:09:22,040 we have is comparable to what exists in pockets and other 167 00:09:22,050 --> 00:09:24,540 areas. So there's maybe Facebook groups 168 00:09:24,550 --> 00:09:29,980 for Ontario Wills and Estates lawyers or a list serve mailing 169 00:09:29,990 --> 00:09:35,290 list for BC family law lawyers. And what we're doing is bringing 170 00:09:35,300 --> 00:09:40,260 that all together in one modern online platform that connects 171 00:09:40,270 --> 00:09:43,840 lawyers across the country and across different practice areas. 172 00:09:43,850 --> 00:09:47,560 So it's supposed to imagining if you had, I mean, right now we 173 00:09:47,570 --> 00:09:50,520 have 50 members that I don't know that we would ever even 174 00:09:50,530 --> 00:09:53,160 want to be at the scale that something like the CBA is. 175 00:09:53,170 --> 00:09:56,440 But being able to fire off a question to hundreds of 176 00:09:56,450 --> 00:09:58,360 different lawyers from different practice areas. 177 00:09:58,370 --> 00:10:01,840 Hey, does does anyone have an expert who has dealt with this 178 00:10:01,850 --> 00:10:04,540 particular issue? Does anyone know a lawyer or 179 00:10:04,550 --> 00:10:07,950 does anyone, do any of you practice family law in this 180 00:10:07,960 --> 00:10:12,150 small town in wherever? It just gives you an opportunity 181 00:10:12,160 --> 00:10:14,370 to kind of balance those questions off and connect with 182 00:10:14,380 --> 00:10:15,930 people. A lot of the discussion we've 183 00:10:15,940 --> 00:10:19,890 had has been related to kind of law firm management from solo 184 00:10:19,900 --> 00:10:22,830 and small practitioners. So what are people doing about 185 00:10:22,840 --> 00:10:25,510 their client intake process? How are you automating that? 186 00:10:25,520 --> 00:10:27,790 How are you making that more efficient? 187 00:10:27,860 --> 00:10:30,750 You know, how are you going about recovering fees when 188 00:10:30,760 --> 00:10:32,940 clients don't pay you? Like, I've never really done 189 00:10:32,950 --> 00:10:34,450 this before. I just write it off. 190 00:10:34,840 --> 00:10:37,830 How are people approaching that? So those sorts of discussions 191 00:10:37,840 --> 00:10:41,090 where it doesn't really lend itself well to social media, 192 00:10:41,100 --> 00:10:43,560 people are reluctant about what they're putting out there. 193 00:10:43,570 --> 00:10:46,170 But if you know, this is a community of your peers and 194 00:10:46,180 --> 00:10:49,230 you're comfortable with them, it's, it's easier to have those 195 00:10:49,280 --> 00:10:51,170 discussions and really get into the issues. 196 00:10:51,680 --> 00:10:53,310 Those are some of the things that set us apart. 197 00:10:53,320 --> 00:10:56,540 I think one other major thing is the pricing model. 198 00:10:56,550 --> 00:11:01,200 Frankly, a lot of organizations that exist right now, you pay an 199 00:11:01,210 --> 00:11:05,570 annual membership and then you pay per event and members of the 200 00:11:05,580 --> 00:11:08,540 association as well as non members are invited to those 201 00:11:08,550 --> 00:11:11,250 events. And I'll, I'll be completely 202 00:11:11,260 --> 00:11:13,820 candid, I don't understand it. I don't understand that model. 203 00:11:13,830 --> 00:11:16,880 And So what we're doing is, is an annual membership. 204 00:11:16,930 --> 00:11:19,680 Our members are the people who come to our events and 205 00:11:19,760 --> 00:11:21,760 everything is included in their annual membership. 206 00:11:21,770 --> 00:11:26,080 They can attend virtual CPD sessions, in person dinners. 207 00:11:26,370 --> 00:11:29,920 We do some of our in person events just a little more 208 00:11:29,930 --> 00:11:33,860 structured so that there's some networking and people are 209 00:11:33,910 --> 00:11:37,150 comfortable meeting new people as opposed to awkwardly standing 210 00:11:37,160 --> 00:11:39,490 around just talking to the people they already know, 211 00:11:39,560 --> 00:11:42,130 Intimate dinners, just different formats that allow that to 212 00:11:42,140 --> 00:11:44,540 happen. And all of that is included in 213 00:11:44,550 --> 00:11:47,070 the annual membership. So those are some of the things 214 00:11:47,080 --> 00:11:48,590 that we're doing a little bit differently. 215 00:11:48,600 --> 00:11:51,940 I think really focusing on on a structured networking format 216 00:11:51,950 --> 00:11:54,440 that allows people to build those connections, pricing 217 00:11:54,450 --> 00:11:57,610 things a little bit differently and just building the 218 00:11:57,620 --> 00:12:00,410 infrastructure to connect layers across the country from 219 00:12:00,420 --> 00:12:02,130 different practices. Amazing. 220 00:12:02,140 --> 00:12:04,760 Are there some things that that came up in those groups? 221 00:12:04,770 --> 00:12:07,680 You just mentioned a few things about, for example, dealing with 222 00:12:07,740 --> 00:12:11,450 collections and all that are some other things that you've 223 00:12:11,460 --> 00:12:15,090 learned from those small groups that also have surprised you in 224 00:12:15,100 --> 00:12:16,790 in any. Way, I mean, it's early days. 225 00:12:16,800 --> 00:12:20,210 So we launched last week. I think the most surprising 226 00:12:20,280 --> 00:12:23,360 thing for me has just been seeing the level of engagement 227 00:12:23,430 --> 00:12:27,220 and that there's answers coming into people's questions, right. 228 00:12:27,230 --> 00:12:30,440 When you launch something like a, a new discussion space or a 229 00:12:30,450 --> 00:12:33,580 new community, there's a level of commitment that's required 230 00:12:33,590 --> 00:12:36,140 from, you know, the person in my position to be in there 231 00:12:36,230 --> 00:12:38,580 prompting the discussion and trying to answer questions when 232 00:12:38,590 --> 00:12:42,770 I can. And it's to see that I'll go in 233 00:12:42,780 --> 00:12:45,320 to answer a question or to give my thoughts on it. 234 00:12:45,410 --> 00:12:48,080 And I see that someone else has already chimed in and, and given 235 00:12:48,090 --> 00:12:52,180 an answer and is sharing what's worked for them, what's not 236 00:12:52,190 --> 00:12:54,760 worked for them. And so that's been surprising in 237 00:12:54,770 --> 00:12:56,920 that sense. One surprising thing I saw was 238 00:12:56,930 --> 00:13:00,760 that there's an automation platform, Zapier, which I use in 239 00:13:00,770 --> 00:13:02,960 my work. It just triggers some, if you 240 00:13:02,970 --> 00:13:06,840 have one piece of software like your Google Drive or whatever, 241 00:13:06,880 --> 00:13:09,500 maybe you want to automatically send an e-mail every time you 242 00:13:09,510 --> 00:13:13,450 put a file in a certain folder. And my wife is in tech and I 243 00:13:13,460 --> 00:13:16,320 have a bit of a tech background. So I use Zapier in my work. 244 00:13:16,330 --> 00:13:19,450 She uses Zapier in her work. And we're very familiar with 245 00:13:19,460 --> 00:13:21,700 that. But I didn't expect many lawyers 246 00:13:21,710 --> 00:13:24,000 to be using Zapier. And we've already had someone in 247 00:13:24,010 --> 00:13:26,490 our group explaining how they automate and approach their 248 00:13:26,500 --> 00:13:29,230 client intake process using Zapier to help out with that. 249 00:13:29,240 --> 00:13:32,050 So that was just yesterday that caught me off guard. 250 00:13:32,060 --> 00:13:34,020 I was really impressed to see that. 251 00:13:34,030 --> 00:13:36,550 And I'm excited to have them share some of that knowledge 252 00:13:36,560 --> 00:13:38,350 with the rest of the group because I think there's a lot 253 00:13:38,360 --> 00:13:40,960 that can be done when someone who's who's a bit more tech 254 00:13:40,970 --> 00:13:43,850 forward is able to share that knowledge with the broader 255 00:13:43,860 --> 00:14:11,400 audience. You know, as we've been hearing 256 00:14:11,410 --> 00:14:14,500 from lawyers around the world on this show, one thing that's 257 00:14:14,510 --> 00:14:17,980 universal is the challenge of managing massive amounts of case 258 00:14:17,990 --> 00:14:19,980 materials. Whether you're dealing with 259 00:14:19,990 --> 00:14:23,860 witness statements in Sydney or reviewing contracts in Chicago, 260 00:14:23,930 --> 00:14:27,840 the volume can be overwhelming. 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Whether you're a law student or 269 00:14:58,210 --> 00:15:01,740 practicing attorney building your international career, Rev 270 00:15:01,750 --> 00:15:05,000 Insights gives you that edge our guests always talk about. 271 00:15:05,010 --> 00:15:33,670 Check it out at rev.com. I think that's a really cool 272 00:15:33,680 --> 00:15:36,700 thing about having a more of a peer group because when you're 273 00:15:36,710 --> 00:15:40,310 in a larger setting, you just becomes really hard to explain, 274 00:15:40,620 --> 00:15:43,880 you know, the details of the practice or, or if you go in a 275 00:15:43,890 --> 00:15:47,950 very specific tool that people might not be very familiar with. 276 00:15:48,080 --> 00:15:50,450 It's much easier to speak in a small environment. 277 00:15:50,460 --> 00:15:53,110 And, and I guess that will go probably for AI and for all 278 00:15:53,120 --> 00:15:56,510 kinds of different things, but that's really exciting to hear. 279 00:15:56,580 --> 00:15:59,830 And you also mentioned a little bit about about hearsay, the 280 00:15:59,840 --> 00:16:02,370 newsletter. And that's so exciting that big 281 00:16:02,380 --> 00:16:06,410 community you built there to we've we've went on talking 282 00:16:06,420 --> 00:16:09,150 about, you know, maybe there's more and more people than we 283 00:16:09,160 --> 00:16:13,410 could have taught that are excited not to be in in such a 284 00:16:13,420 --> 00:16:16,600 button up environment that once you hear things, a little bit of 285 00:16:16,610 --> 00:16:18,640 overlap, sense of humor and all of that. 286 00:16:18,730 --> 00:16:21,500 But I was wondering what are what are some things that 287 00:16:21,570 --> 00:16:24,900 motivated you to to continue with this project? 288 00:16:24,990 --> 00:16:27,870 And also, why do you think lawyers are are more drawn to 289 00:16:27,880 --> 00:16:29,700 that kind of content more than ever? 290 00:16:29,770 --> 00:16:31,840 Yeah, so I'll start with the last piece. 291 00:16:32,170 --> 00:16:35,060 I don't know that More than Ever is accurate. 292 00:16:35,120 --> 00:16:39,740 I think that we're just a very tradition based profession and 293 00:16:39,750 --> 00:16:44,570 reluctant to change. It's one of the reasons I I say 294 00:16:44,580 --> 00:16:47,020 that more than ever isn't accurate is when I started 295 00:16:47,030 --> 00:16:50,760 writing this newsletter, I had a theory in my mind that the 296 00:16:50,770 --> 00:16:53,160 people who would like it and sign up for it would be 297 00:16:53,170 --> 00:16:55,760 millennials. That's are right with the 298 00:16:55,770 --> 00:16:58,000 millennial tone. I'm a millennial myself. 299 00:16:58,050 --> 00:17:01,420 Kind of the sense that it's a generational thing, that we want 300 00:17:01,430 --> 00:17:04,760 more lighthearted communication that that there was an element 301 00:17:04,770 --> 00:17:06,480 of that. But what I've seen is it 302 00:17:06,490 --> 00:17:08,730 resonates with people of all ages. 303 00:17:08,740 --> 00:17:12,940 There's many judges signed up who read the newsletter and 304 00:17:12,950 --> 00:17:15,460 enjoyed. Some of my most engaged readers 305 00:17:15,470 --> 00:17:21,619 are on the cusp of retirement. And so that hypothesis about it 306 00:17:21,630 --> 00:17:25,599 being an age thing really proved to not be accurate. 307 00:17:25,650 --> 00:17:29,310 One thing, I suppose, is that the volume of information that's 308 00:17:29,320 --> 00:17:34,230 out there is there's just so much and decisions have court 309 00:17:34,240 --> 00:17:37,240 decisions have gotten longer and there's just so much, but you 310 00:17:37,250 --> 00:17:40,110 can't keep up. And so I think anyone, if there 311 00:17:40,120 --> 00:17:44,160 was any truth to them, more than ever, I suppose it's now harder 312 00:17:44,170 --> 00:17:47,710 to keep up than ever before and all the more reason to 313 00:17:47,720 --> 00:17:50,630 appreciate something that's light, easy to read. 314 00:17:50,680 --> 00:17:54,010 And unlike a lot of legal reading, doesn't make you 315 00:17:54,020 --> 00:17:58,990 exhausted after you've read 1500 words of something, which I find 316 00:17:59,000 --> 00:18:01,850 is the typical writing style of, of lawyers is just what we're 317 00:18:01,920 --> 00:18:05,610 used to and we put up with it. But a lot of it truly is a chore 318 00:18:05,620 --> 00:18:07,670 to read. And so it's refreshing. 319 00:18:07,680 --> 00:18:09,550 That's what I think anyway. That's what I've heard from my 320 00:18:09,560 --> 00:18:10,770 readers. It's refreshing to have 321 00:18:10,780 --> 00:18:13,470 something that doesn't feel like a chore to read. 322 00:18:13,480 --> 00:18:17,350 And at the end of it, you have more energy to go on with your 323 00:18:17,360 --> 00:18:20,450 day instead of less. You asked what what kind of had 324 00:18:20,460 --> 00:18:23,770 me continuing it. It was truly just the reception 325 00:18:23,780 --> 00:18:26,820 by the audience and, and the growth of it when I started it. 326 00:18:26,830 --> 00:18:31,700 I mean, there was a, a model in my mind of if you know, growing 327 00:18:31,710 --> 00:18:34,940 an audience of people and having attention, there would be some 328 00:18:34,950 --> 00:18:38,360 way to build a business from that in one way or another. 329 00:18:38,370 --> 00:18:43,250 And so it would, it worked. I mean, from day one, people 330 00:18:43,260 --> 00:18:46,010 were enjoying it. Word of mouth spread very 331 00:18:46,020 --> 00:18:49,050 organically. It reached people that were very 332 00:18:49,060 --> 00:18:51,890 far removed from me. And I was pleasantly surprised 333 00:18:51,900 --> 00:18:55,830 with, you know, hear stories of someone goes into a courtroom 334 00:18:55,840 --> 00:18:58,670 and they're sitting behind someone who has hearsay open on 335 00:18:58,680 --> 00:19:00,930 their laptop. Like just the stories that would 336 00:19:00,940 --> 00:19:02,790 come back to me were very encouraging and all of the 337 00:19:02,800 --> 00:19:07,490 reader feedback was very good. And so it's relatively easy to 338 00:19:07,500 --> 00:19:11,170 keep going with something like that when everyone is enjoying 339 00:19:11,180 --> 00:19:13,590 it. And I've for the most part enjoy 340 00:19:13,600 --> 00:19:16,730 writing it, right. It the model is I'm going to go 341 00:19:16,740 --> 00:19:18,410 out, I'm going to read a bunch of stuff and whatever is 342 00:19:18,420 --> 00:19:21,150 interesting to me, I'm going to just put it down on the page and 343 00:19:21,160 --> 00:19:24,540 send it out. And that's a fairly easy thing 344 00:19:24,630 --> 00:19:27,020 to do, as long as you're interested in the subject 345 00:19:27,030 --> 00:19:29,380 matter. If the marker for what goes in 346 00:19:29,390 --> 00:19:32,360 is just stuff that catches your attention, it makes it pleasant 347 00:19:32,410 --> 00:19:34,200 to do and an enjoyable direction. 348 00:19:34,270 --> 00:19:36,550 That's fantastic. It it also proves you're really 349 00:19:36,560 --> 00:19:40,940 good curator of content and what you see maybe call attention of 350 00:19:40,950 --> 00:19:42,780 other people too. So that's super cool. 351 00:19:43,230 --> 00:19:47,120 And coming from you who've seen the legal world from lots of 352 00:19:47,130 --> 00:19:50,420 different angles, being big firms, government, public 353 00:19:50,430 --> 00:19:54,380 service, entrepreneurship. If I may ask you, what kind of 354 00:19:54,490 --> 00:19:59,060 thing do you see these days that you know, be law schools or our 355 00:19:59,070 --> 00:20:03,140 workplaces should get wrong when it comes to preparing lawyers 356 00:20:03,150 --> 00:20:06,400 for the real world, especially for us early career 357 00:20:06,410 --> 00:20:09,320 professionals? Or lost students finishing up 358 00:20:09,670 --> 00:20:11,340 school. What are some things that that 359 00:20:11,350 --> 00:20:12,840 come to your mind when I say that? 360 00:20:12,890 --> 00:20:17,640 I think there's several things. A big one is just that there's a 361 00:20:17,690 --> 00:20:20,700 large business component that comes with practicing law. 362 00:20:20,830 --> 00:20:25,040 It is a business maybe not for one to three years associates 363 00:20:25,050 --> 00:20:29,840 working in a larger firm, but as soon as you are in a stage where 364 00:20:29,910 --> 00:20:33,000 you need to be growing your own brand, marketing yourself, 365 00:20:33,010 --> 00:20:35,520 running a firm, there's, there's a lot that comes with that. 366 00:20:35,530 --> 00:20:38,260 And when I talk to the people who are gravitating towards 367 00:20:38,270 --> 00:20:40,720 joining in laws, that's one of the biggest things that they 368 00:20:40,730 --> 00:20:45,060 mention whether they're a partner in a larger firm and 369 00:20:45,070 --> 00:20:48,790 they're saying I now am leading A-Team. 370 00:20:48,870 --> 00:20:51,730 I've never really trained their leadership skills. 371 00:20:51,800 --> 00:20:53,710 There's a lot of things that would like to bounce off my 372 00:20:53,720 --> 00:20:55,170 peers. How do you do this? 373 00:20:55,180 --> 00:20:58,250 How do you delegate work? How are you managing, building 374 00:20:58,260 --> 00:21:00,910 your book of business with all of the responsibilities that 375 00:21:00,920 --> 00:21:03,310 come from managing A-Team? And then you've got small and 376 00:21:03,320 --> 00:21:05,090 solo operators. Same thing. 377 00:21:05,100 --> 00:21:08,670 So much of your day-to-day becomes administrative work and 378 00:21:08,680 --> 00:21:12,410 running a business, marketing. We don't go to school for any of 379 00:21:12,420 --> 00:21:15,380 those things. And I suppose it would be 380 00:21:15,390 --> 00:21:18,830 difficult for law schools to prepare you for that, but that's 381 00:21:18,840 --> 00:21:20,570 the reality. You're thrown into something 382 00:21:20,580 --> 00:21:23,330 where, yes, you need to know the law and that's what you've 383 00:21:23,340 --> 00:21:26,710 learned to do in in law school is learn the law and figure out 384 00:21:26,720 --> 00:21:29,030 how to apply the law to certain situations. 385 00:21:29,120 --> 00:21:33,170 But there's a whole other piece that comes with practicing law 386 00:21:33,180 --> 00:21:36,150 that we're completely unequipped to deal with. 387 00:21:36,200 --> 00:21:40,930 Another thing that's maybe a bit more specific to to practice is 388 00:21:40,940 --> 00:21:43,310 writing. I still think we're there's 389 00:21:43,320 --> 00:21:47,690 legal writing in every university, but I don't legal 390 00:21:47,700 --> 00:21:50,390 writing is bad. It's bad in Canada. 391 00:21:50,400 --> 00:21:55,250 It's especially bad. We should be looking at the way 392 00:21:55,340 --> 00:21:59,330 the judges on the US Supreme Court, right, that we should be 393 00:21:59,340 --> 00:22:03,190 looking at that with admiration and our own judges, especially 394 00:22:03,200 --> 00:22:06,350 the the Supreme Court of Canada, judges should be looking at that 395 00:22:06,360 --> 00:22:10,650 writing style and reflecting on what they are doing with their 396 00:22:10,660 --> 00:22:15,530 own writing because it doesn't need to be as complicated and as 397 00:22:15,540 --> 00:22:18,440 difficult to read as it is. And I think we're still doing a 398 00:22:18,450 --> 00:22:21,760 very poor job at getting our writing to the place it needs to 399 00:22:21,770 --> 00:22:25,160 be, not just to, you know, when people talk about this, they 400 00:22:25,170 --> 00:22:28,440 talk about the bar of communicating legal information 401 00:22:28,450 --> 00:22:30,900 to the public. And, you know, our writing is so 402 00:22:30,910 --> 00:22:33,790 difficult to understand that the public doesn't understand what's 403 00:22:33,800 --> 00:22:35,960 going on. And that's, that's great. 404 00:22:35,970 --> 00:22:38,020 I think that should be the ultimate goal. 405 00:22:38,030 --> 00:22:41,060 You're writing decisions that the public should understand. 406 00:22:41,070 --> 00:22:44,740 But we're failing at even communicating the law to 407 00:22:44,750 --> 00:22:48,320 lawyers, right? There's so much out there and 408 00:22:48,330 --> 00:22:51,010 our decisions are becoming so hard to read. 409 00:22:51,020 --> 00:22:53,520 You get a 300 paragraph decision from the Supreme Court of 410 00:22:53,530 --> 00:22:55,740 Canada. What practitioner? 411 00:22:55,810 --> 00:22:58,940 In in an era where there's a mental health crisis in the 412 00:22:58,950 --> 00:23:01,690 legal profession, we're swamped with work, people are burning 413 00:23:01,700 --> 00:23:03,590 out. How many practitioners have time 414 00:23:03,600 --> 00:23:06,330 to sit down and read that decision top to bottom? 415 00:23:06,340 --> 00:23:10,330 It's not practical, It's not good writing. 416 00:23:10,340 --> 00:23:11,760 It's not what we should be doing. 417 00:23:11,770 --> 00:23:15,690 And what what I find is because it is a precedent based 418 00:23:15,700 --> 00:23:20,590 profession and the way people learn to write is by looking at 419 00:23:20,600 --> 00:23:23,430 examples, modeling it in their own writing. 420 00:23:23,500 --> 00:23:25,790 You know, you have judges writing like this, Then you have 421 00:23:25,800 --> 00:23:28,330 students looking at those decisions as, OK, that's what 422 00:23:28,340 --> 00:23:31,110 legal writing looks like. And and it just perpetuates 423 00:23:31,120 --> 00:23:33,430 itself. And so at some point we need to 424 00:23:33,500 --> 00:23:37,130 kind of overhaul what we're doing with legal writing and how 425 00:23:37,140 --> 00:23:40,010 we're making it simpler. I think a big part of that 426 00:23:40,020 --> 00:23:43,280 starts with the bench. But, you know, law schools could 427 00:23:43,290 --> 00:23:46,400 be doing that. I I think there's room for 428 00:23:46,410 --> 00:23:47,700 improvement there. Amazing. 429 00:23:47,710 --> 00:23:50,580 Well, thank you for sharing that that opinion moving forward to 430 00:23:50,590 --> 00:23:53,780 your almost at the end of our episode today. 431 00:23:53,870 --> 00:23:58,340 You've spoken about neurodiversity in law recently 432 00:23:58,410 --> 00:24:01,300 and I'd love to hear a few of of your points on that. 433 00:24:01,310 --> 00:24:03,940 You if you could share a little. Bit with our listeners, yeah, 434 00:24:03,950 --> 00:24:07,300 it's not something that I've thought about in any sort of 435 00:24:07,310 --> 00:24:12,640 overarching or I don't know, provement based way. 436 00:24:12,650 --> 00:24:14,940 I'm not the sort of person who's thought about like, how do we 437 00:24:14,950 --> 00:24:17,960 make this better? But I know for me, I've 438 00:24:17,970 --> 00:24:24,540 struggled with anxiety and ADHD and it's made me, it's made lots 439 00:24:24,550 --> 00:24:27,990 of things about practicing law difficult for me. 440 00:24:28,980 --> 00:24:32,370 And so I, you know, there's a lot of work to be done. 441 00:24:32,380 --> 00:24:35,240 I think on that there's much more qualified than people than 442 00:24:35,250 --> 00:24:38,350 me to talk about how to, how to go about changing out. 443 00:24:38,360 --> 00:24:41,380 I think the biggest message I would have for people is that 444 00:24:41,460 --> 00:24:45,410 they're, there are things you can do to make your own life 445 00:24:45,420 --> 00:24:47,220 better. And there are environments out 446 00:24:47,230 --> 00:24:51,690 there, there are firms and places where you can go that 447 00:24:51,740 --> 00:24:55,870 are, are more supportive of different ways of, of thinking 448 00:24:55,880 --> 00:24:59,790 and the way the brain operates. And you should seek those 449 00:24:59,800 --> 00:25:02,950 environments out if you feel like, you know, a model isn't 450 00:25:02,960 --> 00:25:04,970 working for you. And, and that might mean 451 00:25:05,040 --> 00:25:09,970 starting your own firm, right? Finding your own way to carve 452 00:25:09,980 --> 00:25:14,040 out a practice that suits your life and how you structure 453 00:25:14,050 --> 00:25:16,210 things. I found, you know, as someone 454 00:25:16,220 --> 00:25:19,750 with a tech background going into a lot of the environments 455 00:25:19,760 --> 00:25:23,460 that I worked in big law firm setting and of the 456 00:25:23,550 --> 00:25:26,930 infrastructure of the Ontario Ministry of the Attorney 457 00:25:26,940 --> 00:25:29,300 General. The the technology just feels so 458 00:25:29,310 --> 00:25:31,520 archaic. And it feels like there's so 459 00:25:31,530 --> 00:25:36,230 much monotony and pain that comes from the tech choices that 460 00:25:36,240 --> 00:25:40,190 large organizations are making. And that the way my brain works 461 00:25:40,260 --> 00:25:43,850 was really frustrating and made parts of my day more difficult 462 00:25:43,860 --> 00:25:46,940 than it needed to be. And so I gave a lot of thought 463 00:25:46,950 --> 00:25:48,970 starting my own firm. Ultimately, I landed on 464 00:25:48,980 --> 00:25:51,890 entrepreneurship instead that just I gravitated towards that. 465 00:25:51,900 --> 00:25:55,630 But now I'm able to set up my day and use the technology I 466 00:25:55,640 --> 00:25:58,190 want. And just if something is 467 00:25:58,200 --> 00:26:02,790 inefficient and not working for me, instead of having to grit my 468 00:26:02,800 --> 00:26:06,010 teeth and just grind my way through it, I can structure 469 00:26:06,020 --> 00:26:08,370 things. I can go and pay for a textual 470 00:26:08,440 --> 00:26:11,210 to do to solve the things that frustrate me, right. 471 00:26:11,220 --> 00:26:13,970 And so that freedom is really nice. 472 00:26:13,980 --> 00:26:19,180 I think it suits how I think and view the world much better than 473 00:26:19,190 --> 00:26:21,800 being in, in a large organization that has set ways 474 00:26:21,810 --> 00:26:25,160 for doing things. And, you know, sometimes it's, 475 00:26:25,360 --> 00:26:28,720 it doesn't make maybe the most objective sense why things need 476 00:26:28,730 --> 00:26:32,420 to be done in a certain way. And so that's, that's, I guess 477 00:26:32,470 --> 00:26:35,360 specific questions you want to ask me about neurodiversity and 478 00:26:35,370 --> 00:26:37,280 the legal profession. I'd be happy to take a crack at 479 00:26:37,290 --> 00:26:39,120 it, but that's my general thoughts. 480 00:26:39,230 --> 00:26:42,960 I really appreciate you sharing those true to wrap up today's 481 00:26:42,970 --> 00:26:45,500 episode, just what did you ask your own, you know, looking 482 00:26:45,510 --> 00:26:49,340 ahead, what's your vision for how this legal communities like 483 00:26:49,350 --> 00:26:52,640 in laws can really shape and improve the the future of 484 00:26:52,650 --> 00:26:55,920 practice in Canada? I think my number one goal for 485 00:26:55,930 --> 00:27:00,180 in laws is to help as many people as I can not feel the 486 00:27:00,190 --> 00:27:03,910 same way I did about practicing to return. 487 00:27:04,240 --> 00:27:05,990 I don't know if return is appropriate. 488 00:27:06,000 --> 00:27:08,390 I say return because I've talked to people like I say we've been 489 00:27:08,400 --> 00:27:11,450 doing this longer than I am who seem to think that we're on a 490 00:27:11,460 --> 00:27:15,230 decline in that human and connected element of law is 491 00:27:15,240 --> 00:27:18,430 going away from, you know, the time I practice, I never felt 492 00:27:18,440 --> 00:27:21,060 like it was really there in the 1st place. 493 00:27:21,070 --> 00:27:26,140 And so I really just want to make law feel more human and 494 00:27:26,190 --> 00:27:28,470 connected. There's, you know, I'm not 495 00:27:28,480 --> 00:27:34,460 saying everyone should be saying hey, judge so and so or writing 496 00:27:34,530 --> 00:27:38,200 demand letters in the same way as they they talk to other 497 00:27:38,210 --> 00:27:39,880 people. But I think there's a lot of 498 00:27:39,890 --> 00:27:44,740 room to treat your peers as friends in addition to 499 00:27:44,750 --> 00:27:48,560 colleagues, and to connect with them on a level of how do we 500 00:27:48,570 --> 00:27:50,900 make each other better as lawyers? 501 00:27:50,910 --> 00:27:53,140 How do we improve the profession? 502 00:27:53,150 --> 00:27:54,820 How do we work together to do that? 503 00:27:55,880 --> 00:27:58,210 And I think a lot of benefits flow from that, not just 504 00:27:58,620 --> 00:28:03,150 knowledge, but also well-being. And that's that's really the 505 00:28:03,160 --> 00:28:07,190 goal is to help people be the best lawyers they can be, make 506 00:28:07,200 --> 00:28:09,970 them feel good doing it by connecting them with one 507 00:28:09,980 --> 00:28:11,660 another. Once again, really appreciate 508 00:28:11,670 --> 00:28:14,930 you taking the time to be in the podcast today and she answered 509 00:28:14,940 --> 00:28:16,360 this questions. Thank you so much. 510 00:28:16,370 --> 00:28:17,840 Thanks for having me, Claudio. I appreciate. 511 00:28:17,850 --> 00:28:20,010 You being here, well, thank you all for tuning in and we'll see 512 00:28:20,020 --> 00:28:21,130 you all in the next episode.