1 00:00:14,810 --> 00:00:16,760 Hello, everybody. Welcome to another episode of 2 00:00:16,770 --> 00:00:20,040 Studying Law Around the World. Today we have the opportunity to 3 00:00:20,290 --> 00:00:23,200 be hosting here Claudio Martella Occhi. 4 00:00:23,250 --> 00:00:25,070 Claudio, thank you so much for joining us today. 5 00:00:25,890 --> 00:00:27,680 Yeah, thank you very much for for having me. 6 00:00:27,690 --> 00:00:30,220 It's it's a pleasure to meet with a fellow Claudio. 7 00:00:30,450 --> 00:00:32,060 They only make good ones with that name. 8 00:00:32,119 --> 00:00:34,500 That's right. Absolutely have to agree with 9 00:00:34,510 --> 00:00:37,400 you on that one. And a very cool thing is that in 10 00:00:37,410 --> 00:00:41,020 the last, you know, I, I think maybe 20-30 episodes, I 11 00:00:41,350 --> 00:00:44,270 basically spoke with lawyers only in the podcast. 12 00:00:44,280 --> 00:00:47,460 And I'm so glad to get the chance to speak with you today 13 00:00:47,530 --> 00:00:49,940 and just start off our conversation today. 14 00:00:49,950 --> 00:00:52,020 Could you introduce yourself to our audience? 15 00:00:52,550 --> 00:00:55,580 Yeah, yeah, I'd love to you. So like I heard about you on on 16 00:00:55,590 --> 00:00:58,050 sort of LinkedIn and and through a couple of colleagues that you 17 00:00:58,060 --> 00:01:00,060 I think you've interviewed already and I noticed that you 18 00:01:00,070 --> 00:01:01,420 kind of working away from the last night. 19 00:01:01,430 --> 00:01:03,820 I thought it might be cool to speak to someone like me was 20 00:01:03,830 --> 00:01:07,160 sort of law Jason right. So I am a chartered accountant. 21 00:01:07,170 --> 00:01:08,660 I'm a chartered business valuator. 22 00:01:08,670 --> 00:01:12,130 I did nine years and really personal property tax and audit, 23 00:01:12,180 --> 00:01:15,540 most recently KPMG and then I switched over really into 24 00:01:15,550 --> 00:01:17,370 evaluations and litigation support. 25 00:01:17,450 --> 00:01:19,990 And so I do it a ton of litigation related work. 26 00:01:20,000 --> 00:01:23,610 My projects in particular is probably 60% litigation support 27 00:01:23,620 --> 00:01:27,530 based and we cover, you know, matrimonials, shareholder 28 00:01:27,540 --> 00:01:31,450 disputes, commercial litigation, damages, quantification, a 29 00:01:31,460 --> 00:01:34,780 little bit of personal injury and then the state litigation as 30 00:01:34,790 --> 00:01:37,310 well, right. And so, you know, we were a lot 31 00:01:37,320 --> 00:01:39,630 of a lot of different hats and we do a lot of work in that in 32 00:01:39,640 --> 00:01:42,250 that space. And so I thought it might be 33 00:01:42,260 --> 00:01:45,770 cool for you to see, you know, what an expert witness is, is 34 00:01:45,780 --> 00:01:48,950 sort of like and that's what we do typically have those cases. 35 00:01:49,020 --> 00:01:52,770 Well, that sounds amazing. And if I were to ask you to, you 36 00:01:52,780 --> 00:01:56,140 know, kind of go back to the beginning, what first, you know, 37 00:01:56,150 --> 00:01:59,300 sparkle that interest for you in accounting and business 38 00:01:59,310 --> 00:02:03,480 valuation, did you just grow up thinking you just wanted to be a 39 00:02:03,490 --> 00:02:04,790 CPA? So bad. 40 00:02:04,890 --> 00:02:07,320 Oh no, no, no, no. Far, far, far from it. 41 00:02:07,330 --> 00:02:10,740 So I was a bit of a. You know. 42 00:02:10,889 --> 00:02:13,570 How to, how to put it. I wasn't the most responsible 43 00:02:13,580 --> 00:02:16,000 high schooler, I would say, you know, my marks weren't the 44 00:02:16,010 --> 00:02:18,910 greatest, you know, in the first couple of years anyway. 45 00:02:19,410 --> 00:02:22,740 And I sort of found my stride in Grade 11. 46 00:02:23,720 --> 00:02:25,670 And I found it honestly in accounting class. 47 00:02:25,720 --> 00:02:28,670 I, I took to it naturally, for whatever reason, I liked it. 48 00:02:28,680 --> 00:02:30,390 I was very good, marks were very high. 49 00:02:30,720 --> 00:02:32,790 And I thought this is kind of cool. 50 00:02:32,800 --> 00:02:36,150 So I took it again in grade 12. And again, I, I did enjoy it And 51 00:02:36,160 --> 00:02:38,740 you know, I, I found it a bit of a, a niche for me. 52 00:02:38,750 --> 00:02:41,410 You have to be a certain level of nerds or they like accounting 53 00:02:41,600 --> 00:02:44,230 and I consider myself that level of nerd for sure. 54 00:02:45,320 --> 00:02:48,640 And so, you know, I did well and I thought, wow, let me look into 55 00:02:48,650 --> 00:02:51,080 this as a potential career path. And I, I realized that all the 56 00:02:51,090 --> 00:02:54,160 doors, it remained open. And one of the reasons why I 57 00:02:54,170 --> 00:02:58,730 found it so valuable is because I actually didn't know what I 58 00:02:58,740 --> 00:03:00,590 wanted to do with my life for the longest time. 59 00:03:00,660 --> 00:03:03,350 It probably took me longer than most, and I'll get to that a 60 00:03:03,360 --> 00:03:05,900 little bit later, but probably until I was in my early 30s 61 00:03:05,910 --> 00:03:08,470 where I figured out, Hey, this is what I really want to do, 62 00:03:08,620 --> 00:03:11,270 right? And it was really the 63 00:03:11,280 --> 00:03:14,150 flexibility that the CPA designation of the accounting 64 00:03:14,240 --> 00:03:17,130 experience and expertise provides you because you can 65 00:03:17,140 --> 00:03:21,130 really get into any field with sort of that the backdrop, 66 00:03:21,180 --> 00:03:23,210 right? And that was really, I just 67 00:03:23,220 --> 00:03:25,370 wanted to give myself as much flexibility to keep as many 68 00:03:25,380 --> 00:03:28,320 doors and windows open as possible because, you know, it's 69 00:03:28,330 --> 00:03:30,590 a big wide world of life and career out there. 70 00:03:30,600 --> 00:03:32,820 And I didn't know what I wanted to do for the longest time. 71 00:03:33,040 --> 00:03:37,550 That's that's kind of spark. It that sounds great and with, 72 00:03:37,560 --> 00:03:40,610 with your career, kind of looking over, you know, your bio 73 00:03:40,760 --> 00:03:42,260 online, you're LinkedIn and all of that. 74 00:03:42,330 --> 00:03:44,570 I saw you have a background in, in multiple areas. 75 00:03:44,580 --> 00:03:47,200 You just mentioned all the flexibility that the designation 76 00:03:47,210 --> 00:03:50,580 gives you, but you know, included audits, tax compliance, 77 00:03:50,590 --> 00:03:53,620 financial reporting. Were there any key moments that 78 00:03:53,630 --> 00:03:57,300 that really shaped that career path, either confirming that you 79 00:03:57,310 --> 00:04:00,650 really wanted to do that or things that, you know, I really 80 00:04:00,660 --> 00:04:02,630 don't like doing that, I'm going to do something else. 81 00:04:03,460 --> 00:04:06,270 Yeah, that's a great question. Key moments when I left. 82 00:04:06,320 --> 00:04:10,830 So I was working at a firm called the College Barrow Bond, 83 00:04:10,900 --> 00:04:14,080 which was in bond and later became Bigger Tilly Bond and got 84 00:04:14,090 --> 00:04:16,709 bought by KPMG where I eventually worked after. 85 00:04:17,120 --> 00:04:20,350 But I was there for about 2 1/2 years and I learned a lot. 86 00:04:20,360 --> 00:04:24,180 The personal corporate tax and audit, I felt like I needed to 87 00:04:24,190 --> 00:04:27,000 kind of grow and I thought that the next step would be to kind 88 00:04:27,010 --> 00:04:31,560 of work for, you know, in in the industry space, not in public 89 00:04:31,570 --> 00:04:33,940 accounting anymore, right? Work for like 1 specific 90 00:04:33,950 --> 00:04:36,640 company. And so I enough and I got a job 91 00:04:36,650 --> 00:04:41,520 at a company as an assistant controller and I hit and no 92 00:04:41,530 --> 00:04:43,800 offence to the company or anything, it just wasn't that 93 00:04:43,810 --> 00:04:46,350 wall was for me. I realized that a lot of the 94 00:04:46,360 --> 00:04:48,420 things that I thought stressed me out about was accounting. 95 00:04:48,870 --> 00:04:51,080 I really like a lot. I like jumping around from 96 00:04:51,090 --> 00:04:52,830 project to project. I'm working on different 97 00:04:53,070 --> 00:04:56,280 different companies files, you know, every two weeks and really 98 00:04:56,290 --> 00:04:59,800 bouncing around a lot. The pace and the variety was 99 00:04:59,810 --> 00:05:02,480 what made it so attracted to me and what I liked so much. 100 00:05:02,490 --> 00:05:06,260 And so I didn't really realize that until I left. 101 00:05:06,440 --> 00:05:10,270 Now what what the clarity was when I left and that ultimately 102 00:05:10,280 --> 00:05:13,150 came back to work for KPMG was that I needed something a little 103 00:05:13,160 --> 00:05:15,990 bit more than just audit and personal corporate tax. 104 00:05:16,000 --> 00:05:17,980 I'm like, what will that something more be? 105 00:05:18,400 --> 00:05:22,370 So I thought, what can I stack on to my CPA designation that 106 00:05:22,440 --> 00:05:26,150 sort of builds it? And I thought of the CBV, the 107 00:05:26,220 --> 00:05:31,880 CFA and the NBA and I thought NBA too similar and probably not 108 00:05:31,890 --> 00:05:34,340 as as good overall compared to the CPA. 109 00:05:34,350 --> 00:05:36,940 So that's out. And the CFI I thought 110 00:05:37,010 --> 00:05:39,980 interesting, but we're probably cannibalized a lot of my 111 00:05:40,170 --> 00:05:41,880 accounting experience and background. 112 00:05:42,110 --> 00:05:43,660 So that doesn't really work either. 113 00:05:43,990 --> 00:05:48,390 Another I looked up at the CBD and and I had done one project 114 00:05:48,400 --> 00:05:51,570 because my old boss wasn't CB. We did one valuation together 115 00:05:51,650 --> 00:05:54,000 and it was, it was a litigation based and I thought it was so 116 00:05:54,010 --> 00:05:56,860 cool. So I dug more into it. 117 00:05:56,870 --> 00:05:59,480 I thought, wow, this is really, really cool. 118 00:05:59,490 --> 00:06:01,560 I didn't even know this existed, that accounts could do this. 119 00:06:01,570 --> 00:06:04,840 And I enrolled in the program even before I started keeping G 120 00:06:05,030 --> 00:06:08,420 and I called them, you know, I'll give you 3 busy seasons 121 00:06:08,430 --> 00:06:11,580 here in an audit, you know, to be a good soldier. 122 00:06:11,590 --> 00:06:14,470 But I want to eventually like get into the valuations 123 00:06:14,480 --> 00:06:17,320 department and, and really go full on with this, like I, I 124 00:06:17,330 --> 00:06:20,500 want to be evaluated, right. And and that was probably the, 125 00:06:20,570 --> 00:06:23,200 you know, the bit of a long winded answer, but that was the 126 00:06:23,250 --> 00:06:26,120 the key moment was kind of leading public accounting and 127 00:06:26,130 --> 00:06:29,220 then coming back to it and realizing I want to take this 128 00:06:29,230 --> 00:06:30,690 other step and move forward that way. 129 00:06:30,700 --> 00:06:33,190 Awesome. So just here to clarify for the 130 00:06:33,200 --> 00:06:37,470 audience to the CBV, the Chartered Business Valuator and 131 00:06:37,480 --> 00:06:40,570 just for tax, do you need to be already a CPA in order to do 132 00:06:40,580 --> 00:06:43,990 that or how does that work? You do not actually, no. 133 00:06:44,000 --> 00:06:46,270 You can go directly into the CVD stream. 134 00:06:46,360 --> 00:06:50,250 There's a lot of again, congruency between CPA and CPP 135 00:06:50,300 --> 00:06:53,270 needs a lot of personal attacks knowledge like it helps. 136 00:06:53,600 --> 00:06:55,610 I don't think you need it, but it is definitely helpful. 137 00:06:55,860 --> 00:06:58,970 A lot of accounting knowledge. Obviously when you're CV, the 138 00:06:58,980 --> 00:07:01,850 main document you're looking at her college statements and trial 139 00:07:01,860 --> 00:07:04,510 balances, right? So you know, if you're, if 140 00:07:04,520 --> 00:07:08,600 you're accounting background, obviously that stuff is a little 141 00:07:08,610 --> 00:07:12,540 bit more familiar to you than if you were or not, but it's not, I 142 00:07:12,550 --> 00:07:15,080 would not say it's a requirement in any respect, right? 143 00:07:15,090 --> 00:07:16,520 They started to build upon each other. 144 00:07:16,530 --> 00:07:19,610 Whichever 1 you have or do first, the other one would still 145 00:07:19,620 --> 00:07:22,110 build upon, you know, if you were to do it 2nd. 146 00:07:22,150 --> 00:07:24,780 And you really don't need to do the CPA at all like if you want 147 00:07:24,790 --> 00:07:27,660 to be CPD, but I wouldn't say like it would definitely sharpen 148 00:07:27,670 --> 00:07:29,640 your skills if your goal, right? There's no question. 149 00:07:30,930 --> 00:07:33,000 So yeah, that's that's that's what it is. 150 00:07:33,310 --> 00:07:35,160 Fantastic. Well, thank you for, for 151 00:07:35,170 --> 00:07:38,140 clarifying that. And the, the more we look into 152 00:07:38,150 --> 00:07:41,700 it, it seems like accounting in the law overlap more and more. 153 00:07:41,770 --> 00:07:45,720 So I'd love to hear more about Guido, the work you do, the, the 154 00:07:45,730 --> 00:07:48,420 business valuation, the legal matters. 155 00:07:48,430 --> 00:07:52,060 I, I was just thinking as I, as I prepared for this, right. 156 00:07:52,070 --> 00:07:55,050 But I, I'm guessing for, you know, the solo lawyers, they 157 00:07:55,060 --> 00:07:59,410 have to do a lot of the, a lot of the things end up being on on 158 00:07:59,420 --> 00:08:02,190 their own right, like from the, the accounting for the firm 159 00:08:02,200 --> 00:08:05,690 itself all the way to each of the cases they work on. 160 00:08:05,800 --> 00:08:08,150 But I'd love to hear a little more about your role on that. 161 00:08:08,920 --> 00:08:10,680 Yeah. So that's funny you mentioned 162 00:08:10,690 --> 00:08:11,650 that. So obviously we're a full 163 00:08:11,660 --> 00:08:14,090 service accounting firm. We do a number of, you know, 164 00:08:14,100 --> 00:08:17,740 typical sort of nuts and bolts accounting services for lawyers 165 00:08:17,750 --> 00:08:20,190 and professionals across the board, whether they be doctors, 166 00:08:20,200 --> 00:08:22,530 dentists, but you know, lawyers, all the above. 167 00:08:22,600 --> 00:08:25,210 But my department specifically is valuations and litigation 168 00:08:25,220 --> 00:08:28,360 support, which is probably a bit of a misnomer because we really 169 00:08:28,370 --> 00:08:32,120 are like quantification, really, anytime you need a number, we're 170 00:08:32,130 --> 00:08:35,539 sort of, you know, the, the team to call, so to speak. 171 00:08:35,549 --> 00:08:38,720 And, and you know, often in litigation matters that the 172 00:08:38,909 --> 00:08:42,210 primary concerns are financial. And when their financial, that's 173 00:08:42,220 --> 00:08:45,530 where we really, you know, can help out with the flesh out that 174 00:08:45,540 --> 00:08:48,790 sort of the answers or at least provide some sort of path 175 00:08:48,800 --> 00:08:51,080 towards resolution. So for example, how we do a lot 176 00:08:51,090 --> 00:08:54,390 of matrimonial work and in the matrimonial space will do, you 177 00:08:54,400 --> 00:08:57,310 know, income calculations for support purposes and we'll do 178 00:08:57,670 --> 00:09:01,640 valuations of businesses and even preparation or assistance 179 00:09:01,650 --> 00:09:04,500 with preparing the Form 13.1 financial statements. 180 00:09:04,510 --> 00:09:07,050 So that's your sort of personal financial statement when you are 181 00:09:07,060 --> 00:09:09,800 in a divorce matter. And that combines something 182 00:09:09,810 --> 00:09:12,480 called the net family property statement, which is how you 183 00:09:12,490 --> 00:09:15,140 determine the division of assets and the old ultimate 184 00:09:15,150 --> 00:09:17,740 equalization between the two parties when they split, right? 185 00:09:17,750 --> 00:09:21,900 So we are very well adapted and very, you know, enthusiastic 186 00:09:21,910 --> 00:09:24,360 about putting us up together. And again, in order to bring 187 00:09:24,370 --> 00:09:26,160 resolution, right. So we like to provide some clear 188 00:09:26,170 --> 00:09:28,070 answers. That's some clear paths forward. 189 00:09:29,290 --> 00:09:32,270 You know, things like divorce are very, very sad, very 190 00:09:32,280 --> 00:09:35,010 difficult parts of people like. So from my perspective, it's 191 00:09:35,020 --> 00:09:37,800 always been about taking, you know, helping someone get 192 00:09:37,810 --> 00:09:40,760 through something very difficult in the way that I can. 193 00:09:40,890 --> 00:09:43,540 So I appreciate that we're not, we're not, we're not saving 194 00:09:43,550 --> 00:09:45,200 people's lives on the operating table here. 195 00:09:45,210 --> 00:09:48,290 You know, we're not the doctors of the world really, really 196 00:09:48,340 --> 00:09:51,030 making the most impact, but, you know, in our own little way, 197 00:09:51,040 --> 00:09:53,620 this is where we contribute to, you know, making people's lives 198 00:09:53,630 --> 00:09:55,540 better, right? That's that's sort of what gives 199 00:09:55,550 --> 00:09:58,650 me to it for me for that. But that's not true, right? 200 00:09:58,660 --> 00:10:01,670 And then you've got like state litigation where, you know, 201 00:10:01,680 --> 00:10:04,730 beneficiaries might be fighting over, you know, a certain 202 00:10:04,740 --> 00:10:07,500 certain states assets, maybe all the assets, maybe some of them 203 00:10:07,510 --> 00:10:09,730 and how they were divided. States I always refer to as sort 204 00:10:09,740 --> 00:10:10,890 of like a choose your own adventure. 205 00:10:10,940 --> 00:10:13,080 You never really know what you're going to be asked to do 206 00:10:13,090 --> 00:10:15,530 at the beginning within the state matter to help resolve it. 207 00:10:16,240 --> 00:10:18,830 And a lot of times we work with council really for both sides to 208 00:10:18,840 --> 00:10:21,530 figure out like what is the best way to do that. 209 00:10:21,540 --> 00:10:23,870 And we also work with our task consultant department, which is 210 00:10:23,880 --> 00:10:27,220 sort of in lockstep with ours, to figure out a way that we can 211 00:10:27,230 --> 00:10:30,420 kind of value the assets or provide a quantification of 212 00:10:30,430 --> 00:10:33,470 whatever they need us to and then to distribute the way 213 00:10:33,480 --> 00:10:36,400 that's very tax efficient. And the example I always give 214 00:10:36,410 --> 00:10:38,890 is, you know, I can say this stuff is worth $5,000,000. 215 00:10:39,120 --> 00:10:41,680 And then our tax department's job is to kind of make it feel 216 00:10:41,690 --> 00:10:44,250 like 5 and a half, $1,000,000 for the beneficiaries, right? 217 00:10:44,460 --> 00:10:48,580 By distributing things in a very tax efficient manner, right? 218 00:10:48,590 --> 00:10:51,670 And that's, that's the value we try to provide to our clients. 219 00:10:51,680 --> 00:10:53,830 And really one of the main things about our firm that made 220 00:10:53,840 --> 00:10:55,960 us very attractive. We're sort of a one stop shop 221 00:10:55,970 --> 00:10:59,000 for this kind of stuff, right? And not, not many firms are, 222 00:10:59,010 --> 00:11:00,780 frankly, we're, we've grown a lot. 223 00:11:00,790 --> 00:11:04,640 We're 100% firm now. You're probably around 18, about 224 00:11:04,650 --> 00:11:08,410 4 1/2 years ago when I when I joined and yeah, just, you know, 225 00:11:08,420 --> 00:11:11,330 we've been off to the races that and a lot of growth, very dizzy, 226 00:11:11,610 --> 00:11:15,060 but it's been amazing and made a lot of impact I think in the 227 00:11:15,070 --> 00:11:17,640 market and people's lives. And that sounds so great. 228 00:11:17,650 --> 00:11:21,380 And I guess it ties a lot to the to the personal story that you 229 00:11:21,390 --> 00:11:23,240 had on figuring out what you like. 230 00:11:23,250 --> 00:11:27,620 And then once you find that very useful of a profession for sure, 231 00:11:27,690 --> 00:11:30,280 and in a designation that you know, makes sense for you, 232 00:11:30,330 --> 00:11:32,400 taking all of that into consideration, you know, 233 00:11:32,560 --> 00:11:35,960 thinking about young lawyers like lost students right now who 234 00:11:35,970 --> 00:11:39,250 are also trying to navigate different spaces and maybe even 235 00:11:39,260 --> 00:11:43,070 consider a nonlinear career paths for for law. 236 00:11:44,040 --> 00:11:45,570 Yeah. You mean it like a a lawyer 237 00:11:45,580 --> 00:11:48,190 trying to get into that kind of thing or a lawyer engaging with 238 00:11:48,200 --> 00:11:51,130 or networking with those type of people that they they have sort 239 00:11:51,140 --> 00:11:53,550 of that at their disposal if the case needs? 240 00:11:55,330 --> 00:11:58,680 No, at friends laughing about, you know, young, young lawyers 241 00:11:58,690 --> 00:12:01,260 were like, you know, I don't wanna do the lawyer thing. 242 00:12:01,390 --> 00:12:04,440 The law degrees very useful. I love it, but I don't think I 243 00:12:04,450 --> 00:12:06,700 want to be a lawyer. And then maybe going into that, 244 00:12:06,710 --> 00:12:10,230 and you know what, why don't we talk about both of the options? 245 00:12:10,550 --> 00:12:12,660 Yeah, sure. I mean that's very existential 246 00:12:12,670 --> 00:12:15,030 for sure. Like if you're a lawyer and you 247 00:12:15,040 --> 00:12:16,380 want to get into that side of things. 248 00:12:16,390 --> 00:12:19,690 I always find, you know, for whatever reason that my wife is 249 00:12:19,700 --> 00:12:22,410 a lawyer as well. And it's like I'm allowed to say 250 00:12:22,420 --> 00:12:24,620 this. A lawyer is in now don't always 251 00:12:24,630 --> 00:12:26,600 I feel like light up very well together. 252 00:12:27,010 --> 00:12:31,280 And that's frankly why I'm I'm employed, I think and why my my 253 00:12:31,330 --> 00:12:34,850 designation is service package exists and is attractive in the 254 00:12:34,860 --> 00:12:36,520 1st place. I think that lawyers should veer 255 00:12:36,530 --> 00:12:40,270 more into sort of the the theology and and you know, the 256 00:12:40,380 --> 00:12:43,630 real dirty, gritty, you know, arguments behind, you know, 257 00:12:43,640 --> 00:12:47,490 positions, right, whether it be two or more on a given matter, 258 00:12:47,500 --> 00:12:49,730 right. And sometimes they need that's 259 00:12:49,740 --> 00:12:53,490 worried about the number they're worried about their their own 260 00:12:53,500 --> 00:12:57,830 position stance, right, based on certain set of case facts. 261 00:12:57,840 --> 00:13:00,870 Lawyers, I always feel like are more like puzzle oriented that 262 00:13:00,880 --> 00:13:03,890 way, right? Whereas, you know, people like 263 00:13:03,900 --> 00:13:08,060 us, the number, the number of guys and gals are a little bit 264 00:13:08,070 --> 00:13:10,020 more structured in that regard for what we said. 265 00:13:10,030 --> 00:13:12,550 Like, you know, we really want to break everything down into 266 00:13:12,560 --> 00:13:15,930 the dollars spent. Sometimes Gerard detriment, like 267 00:13:15,940 --> 00:13:19,350 I, I have a joke actually, but I always say you're on in my role, 268 00:13:19,700 --> 00:13:24,170 sort of 60% account, 20% lawyer at 20% therapist, because you 269 00:13:24,180 --> 00:13:27,820 know, with the States and and matrimonials, the reality is if 270 00:13:27,830 --> 00:13:30,730 they're very emotional, right? And the lawyers will definitely 271 00:13:30,740 --> 00:13:32,970 know this, obviously, like it's such emotional work. 272 00:13:32,980 --> 00:13:36,300 You have such, you know, personal conversations with, 273 00:13:36,630 --> 00:13:38,480 with really everyone involved because you're just you're 274 00:13:38,490 --> 00:13:42,020 digging into their life, right? Like, oh, how did you split, you 275 00:13:42,030 --> 00:13:44,560 know, annual expenses with your husband or wife, right? 276 00:13:44,570 --> 00:13:47,430 You know who paid for what, you know, they pay you a salary out 277 00:13:47,440 --> 00:13:48,950 of their business, right. Like a lot. 278 00:13:48,960 --> 00:13:51,730 There's a lot and get, you know, even more, more in depth from 279 00:13:51,740 --> 00:13:53,410 there. But I probably can't share on 280 00:13:53,420 --> 00:13:56,330 the call. But you know, when you get so 281 00:13:56,340 --> 00:13:59,760 ingrained with it, it's just, you know, you, you have to have 282 00:13:59,770 --> 00:14:01,990 sort of a different perspective. And while the two things are 283 00:14:02,000 --> 00:14:05,000 very similar, being that, you know, about litigation account, 284 00:14:05,380 --> 00:14:08,910 you know, 60% of the time they're just very different. 285 00:14:08,990 --> 00:14:10,770 Yeah. For, for I guess a lawyer that 286 00:14:10,780 --> 00:14:13,200 wanted to try their hand and going through the account. 287 00:14:14,040 --> 00:14:15,640 Be my guest. Feel free to reach out. 288 00:14:16,340 --> 00:14:18,400 But you're probably you are probably already picked the 289 00:14:18,410 --> 00:14:20,190 right? Path amazing going on the other 290 00:14:20,200 --> 00:14:23,820 route we just talked about you know how do you you know build 291 00:14:23,830 --> 00:14:27,450 these relationships with expert witnesses and all of that I I 292 00:14:27,460 --> 00:14:31,530 know that there is some sort of a there must be some sort of 293 00:14:31,540 --> 00:14:34,990 like an A non that close of a relationship because. 294 00:14:35,940 --> 00:14:38,260 That's interesting, right? I'd love to hear about, you 295 00:14:38,270 --> 00:14:39,670 know, the networking and all that. 296 00:14:40,470 --> 00:14:42,640 Yeah, it's professional services, right? 297 00:14:42,690 --> 00:14:46,310 So The thing is, you know, you can market it like crazy and you 298 00:14:46,320 --> 00:14:49,840 can have the greatest website and LinkedIn profile, yadda 299 00:14:49,850 --> 00:14:53,650 yadda. And the reality is word of mouth 300 00:14:53,660 --> 00:14:57,750 is still sort of the number one, the networking tool and business 301 00:14:57,760 --> 00:15:00,730 tool, right? And your delivery is the best 302 00:15:00,740 --> 00:15:04,070 marketing that you can do. You do well on your files. 303 00:15:04,140 --> 00:15:07,230 People say, yeah, you know, I've worked, you know, in my case, I 304 00:15:07,240 --> 00:15:09,840 worked with this guy Claudio, and he did a really good job on 305 00:15:09,850 --> 00:15:12,530 the style of never witnessed. You know, to you that like that 306 00:15:12,540 --> 00:15:15,320 kind of stuff is important. That's really it. 307 00:15:15,330 --> 00:15:17,560 Like I would reach out to basically others in your space, 308 00:15:17,930 --> 00:15:20,360 right, and say, have you worked with any good valuators you and 309 00:15:20,370 --> 00:15:23,200 all of any that are recommended that you gotta, I mean, you 310 00:15:23,210 --> 00:15:24,540 could do the Google search thing as well. 311 00:15:24,550 --> 00:15:27,200 Like that's not like that. Well, you could read up on my 312 00:15:27,210 --> 00:15:30,700 Leathan profile and you know, host of others, right, and, and 313 00:15:30,710 --> 00:15:33,240 websites and things like that to do your research. 314 00:15:33,550 --> 00:15:36,390 I encourage you to do it. If you're you're a lawyer in in 315 00:15:36,400 --> 00:15:39,200 sort of the litigation space or even not even solicitor space 316 00:15:39,210 --> 00:15:42,200 where you have to quantify things sometimes and it may be a 317 00:15:42,210 --> 00:15:45,540 little bit over your head. Getting the accountants involved 318 00:15:45,910 --> 00:15:49,200 earlier is generally better. It's less costly. 319 00:15:49,250 --> 00:15:51,480 You won't spin your wheels trying to figure out what to do. 320 00:15:51,490 --> 00:15:53,520 Typically get will have the answers and you can kind of lay 321 00:15:53,530 --> 00:15:55,660 out the thought and it's just more efficient. 322 00:15:55,670 --> 00:15:58,700 It's always better, you know, to provide that that kind of full 323 00:15:58,710 --> 00:16:01,580 package service to your clients. It won't always be apparent on 324 00:16:01,590 --> 00:16:04,390 the first case for the second case, but ultimately, if you 325 00:16:04,400 --> 00:16:06,880 kind of know what to do and give the situation, even though it's 326 00:16:06,890 --> 00:16:10,430 not your specific expertise and knowing what to do might just be 327 00:16:10,440 --> 00:16:14,320 simply OHI should call, call that violator again, right? 328 00:16:14,330 --> 00:16:17,850 That might be enough to get the job done and do good work for 329 00:16:17,860 --> 00:16:19,870 your client, right? That at the end of the day is 330 00:16:19,880 --> 00:16:22,290 what you're trying to do as a profession, trying to provide, 331 00:16:22,360 --> 00:16:25,350 you know, good quality service and that will build your own 332 00:16:25,360 --> 00:16:28,440 sort of brand and your and your business and your career from 333 00:16:28,450 --> 00:16:30,750 there, right. It's easier than it than than it 334 00:16:30,760 --> 00:16:33,230 really sounds. I guess you just got to do it. 335 00:16:33,280 --> 00:16:34,340 It's a contact. Sport. 336 00:16:34,490 --> 00:16:36,490 That's awesome. And I think it aligns the lot 337 00:16:36,500 --> 00:16:39,830 with with the whole story you've been telling us about how you 338 00:16:39,840 --> 00:16:42,870 got to where you are today. And maybe even is that your 339 00:16:42,880 --> 00:16:44,770 personal belief? If you were, you know, to tell 340 00:16:44,780 --> 00:16:48,630 yourself from, you know, 10 years ago, just try it out, see 341 00:16:48,640 --> 00:16:50,720 if you like it. Is that what you'd recommend? 342 00:16:51,100 --> 00:16:53,520 Yeah, 100%. Like you just gotta do it. 343 00:16:54,860 --> 00:16:58,130 You know, It's not, it's a bit related to sort of imposter 344 00:16:58,140 --> 00:17:00,060 syndrome where people always feel like, you know, they're, 345 00:17:00,070 --> 00:17:02,890 they shouldn't be in the role of they're in or they don't deserve 346 00:17:02,900 --> 00:17:05,310 it. You know, if you if you 347 00:17:05,319 --> 00:17:07,730 challenge yourself from life, you always kind of feel like 348 00:17:07,740 --> 00:17:10,710 that at some degree, right? You almost should feel like 349 00:17:10,720 --> 00:17:12,290 that, right? Because that's how you know 350 00:17:12,300 --> 00:17:13,869 you're growing. If you're sort of in unchartered 351 00:17:13,880 --> 00:17:17,770 waters a bit like, you know, you're expanding your horizons, 352 00:17:17,780 --> 00:17:20,270 you're getting smarter, You don't you feel it yet or you're 353 00:17:20,280 --> 00:17:24,300 not so confident, right? And that's not to say like it's 354 00:17:24,310 --> 00:17:25,770 not really fake it till you make it. 355 00:17:25,960 --> 00:17:29,990 No, if you're a diligent professional, you do the work to 356 00:17:30,000 --> 00:17:32,090 better understand something. Everything is a puzzle. 357 00:17:32,100 --> 00:17:34,890 Every case we get, for example, you know, there's parts of it 358 00:17:34,900 --> 00:17:36,890 that are a little bit over our head on day one. 359 00:17:36,900 --> 00:17:38,950 And then we wrap our heads around when we think about it, 360 00:17:39,120 --> 00:17:42,170 we do our research, we look at case law and we, we look at, you 361 00:17:42,180 --> 00:17:43,610 know, other things we've done in the past. 362 00:17:43,700 --> 00:17:45,390 We come up with a reasonable answer. 363 00:17:45,400 --> 00:17:47,410 That's well thought I would support it, right? 364 00:17:47,700 --> 00:17:49,670 You don't get to get there. It's not like when you write the 365 00:17:49,680 --> 00:17:53,800 exams and you know, you have 4 hours to, to come up with 366 00:17:53,810 --> 00:17:57,390 answers to, you know, 3 cases and you get, you know, 15 367 00:17:57,400 --> 00:17:59,290 minutes each or whatever or what have you, right? 368 00:17:59,560 --> 00:18:02,570 This is the situation where you have usually have some time, you 369 00:18:02,580 --> 00:18:05,210 can do some research, you could apply it, right and apply your 370 00:18:05,220 --> 00:18:07,520 knowledge. If you're, if you're doing that, 371 00:18:07,590 --> 00:18:10,700 you're a good profession, right? That's, that's really the mark 372 00:18:10,710 --> 00:18:12,370 of a good question. We should be doing the research, 373 00:18:12,380 --> 00:18:14,850 doing doing your diligence on your files, right? 374 00:18:14,860 --> 00:18:16,620 You're not always going to have the answer right away. 375 00:18:16,680 --> 00:18:19,100 No one's got encyclopedic knowledge like that. 376 00:18:19,570 --> 00:18:22,200 If you think you've sort of met partners in your life that do, 377 00:18:22,980 --> 00:18:27,640 the reality is they they attain that over like 20, 30-40 years 378 00:18:27,650 --> 00:18:30,440 of experience, right? They made many, many mistakes in 379 00:18:30,450 --> 00:18:32,400 their 20s and 30s. Just like, you know, you and I 380 00:18:32,410 --> 00:18:35,120 will, right? And you know, that's again, 381 00:18:35,130 --> 00:18:36,780 that's par for the course, right? 382 00:18:36,790 --> 00:18:39,100 Sometimes that that's lost on sort of the under professionals 383 00:18:39,110 --> 00:18:42,160 think, wow, you know how my partner and my group get so 384 00:18:42,170 --> 00:18:43,950 smart. Well, you been doing this for 385 00:18:43,960 --> 00:18:45,430 three years and they been doing it for 30. 386 00:18:45,440 --> 00:18:47,280 That's really the difference, right? 387 00:18:47,330 --> 00:18:48,810 You'll see 27 years. From now. 388 00:18:48,820 --> 00:18:51,340 That's right. No, I firm believer that you 389 00:18:51,350 --> 00:18:54,900 have to do something repeatedly to get really good at it. 390 00:18:54,910 --> 00:18:57,880 We were just talking at work the other day about, you know, how 391 00:18:58,230 --> 00:19:01,320 class actions really help out because you just have to do 392 00:19:01,330 --> 00:19:05,900 basically the same thing so many times that it's almost hard not 393 00:19:05,910 --> 00:19:08,610 to get good at it or not to understand how it all works. 394 00:19:08,620 --> 00:19:11,240 Because at the end of the day, you're just doing the same thing 395 00:19:11,250 --> 00:19:13,670 so many times, right? Absolutely. 396 00:19:13,680 --> 00:19:15,970 I, I could speak from personal experience, like earlier in my 397 00:19:15,980 --> 00:19:17,880 career when I worked, I mentioned Collins, Gerald 398 00:19:17,890 --> 00:19:20,870 Vaughn. I, it was a smaller firm, so the 399 00:19:20,880 --> 00:19:24,210 clients were smaller and usually worked on like the entire file 400 00:19:24,220 --> 00:19:27,230 from beginning to end, right. And, and sometimes they keep you 401 00:19:27,240 --> 00:19:29,670 MG's of the world. You don't do that. 402 00:19:29,680 --> 00:19:31,770 You work on your specific subset like your PNG. 403 00:19:31,780 --> 00:19:34,830 I was, you know, I had audit clients and I worked on the 404 00:19:34,840 --> 00:19:37,210 audit and that was one of the few that also did a little bit 405 00:19:37,220 --> 00:19:40,010 of the personal, sorry about the corporate tax, but usually it 406 00:19:40,020 --> 00:19:43,670 was just audio, right? That calls Borough Lawn. 407 00:19:43,680 --> 00:19:47,870 It was always everything. So the audit, the corporate tax 408 00:19:47,880 --> 00:19:50,530 returns, the nasal statements for the holding companies, the 409 00:19:50,540 --> 00:19:53,110 personal tax returns, the whole sort of cycle, right? 410 00:19:53,940 --> 00:19:57,530 That kind of comprehensive experience that you get in sort 411 00:19:57,540 --> 00:20:00,690 of smaller mid-size firms is vital, right? 412 00:20:00,740 --> 00:20:03,590 And you know, you could argue that it's more, more important 413 00:20:03,680 --> 00:20:05,890 than something you might get a bigger firm that I don't want to 414 00:20:05,900 --> 00:20:09,210 know my, my period, the KPMG was, it was excellent and you 415 00:20:09,220 --> 00:20:10,810 know, I'm very grateful for it as well. 416 00:20:10,900 --> 00:20:13,370 But it was just you kind of figure out what the, what right 417 00:20:13,380 --> 00:20:15,810 fit is in your career. And my right fit has always been 418 00:20:15,820 --> 00:20:17,900 sort of on the smaller, medium sized clients. 419 00:20:17,910 --> 00:20:20,330 And that's why, you know, the firm that I'm with is, you know, 420 00:20:20,380 --> 00:20:23,230 sort of that. That target right you find your 421 00:20:23,240 --> 00:20:25,210 niche as as you move through your career. 422 00:20:25,260 --> 00:20:27,690 Fantastic. Well, Claudia, thank you so much 423 00:20:27,700 --> 00:20:30,730 for taking the time to to share this insights with us today. 424 00:20:30,800 --> 00:20:33,350 And thank you guys for tuning into today's episode. 425 00:20:33,360 --> 00:20:34,550 Sounds good. Thank you so much. 426 00:20:34,560 --> 00:20:35,470 We'll see you around.