1 00:00:12,880 --> 00:00:14,890 Welcome to Studying Law Around the World. 2 00:00:15,020 --> 00:00:17,870 I'm Claudio Claus. In each episode, I talk with 3 00:00:17,880 --> 00:00:20,850 lawyers, law students, and professors from different parts 4 00:00:20,860 --> 00:00:24,730 of the world to talk about legal education, careers, and what the 5 00:00:24,740 --> 00:00:26,410 profession looks like in real life. 6 00:00:26,420 --> 00:00:29,470 We talk about the hard parts, the surprises, and the decisions 7 00:00:29,480 --> 00:00:32,270 that shaped their paths. Whether you're planning to study 8 00:00:32,280 --> 00:00:35,520 abroad, thinking about working in another legal system, or just 9 00:00:35,530 --> 00:00:39,650 curious about how law works around the world, this podcast 10 00:00:39,660 --> 00:00:47,070 is for you. Whether you're studying law in 11 00:00:47,080 --> 00:00:50,450 Mumbai or practising in Manhattan, Rev can help you 12 00:00:50,460 --> 00:00:53,490 transcribe and analyze all your case materials with 13 00:00:53,500 --> 00:01:03,570 verifiablecitations.learnmore@rev.com. Today I have the opportunity to 14 00:01:03,580 --> 00:01:07,110 speak with Chris Graham. He has a very interesting career 15 00:01:07,120 --> 00:01:10,690 and a very interesting relation to law and how to communication. 16 00:01:10,740 --> 00:01:13,790 So I decided to ask him a couple of questions and ask what a 17 00:01:13,800 --> 00:01:17,750 twice retired lawyer as he entitles himself, thinks about 18 00:01:17,760 --> 00:01:19,610 these things. Thank you so much for joining. 19 00:01:19,760 --> 00:01:22,670 Welcome to the podcast, Chris. It's my pleasure, Claudio. 20 00:01:22,680 --> 00:01:24,250 Thanks so much for inviting me to be here. 21 00:01:24,320 --> 00:01:27,070 I appreciate it. And for those who haven't met 22 00:01:27,080 --> 00:01:29,810 you yet, can you tell us a little bit about who you are and 23 00:01:29,820 --> 00:01:32,050 what's the story behind tell people? 24 00:01:32,060 --> 00:01:34,630 Oh wow. Well, I I mean, I guess you took 25 00:01:34,640 --> 00:01:37,490 my joke. I am the twice retired as a 26 00:01:37,500 --> 00:01:39,540 lawyer. So probably the most retired guy 27 00:01:39,550 --> 00:01:44,070 you've ever had on this podcast. I started my career at a law 28 00:01:44,080 --> 00:01:46,620 firm in New York City called Sullivan and Cromwell. 29 00:01:46,750 --> 00:01:50,130 So I I was at UT law school where you were at and I went 30 00:01:50,180 --> 00:01:51,770 straight to New York, which was really fun. 31 00:01:51,980 --> 00:01:54,970 Then it took a break for a while in the middle, I left SNC, I 32 00:01:54,980 --> 00:01:58,030 went to school in England to read in the humanities just for 33 00:01:58,040 --> 00:02:00,930 fun basically. I was at Oxford University for a 34 00:02:00,940 --> 00:02:03,350 few years. Then I came back to Toronto and 35 00:02:03,360 --> 00:02:06,990 I wrote a novel for a year, drafted a novel. 36 00:02:07,040 --> 00:02:09,070 It was awful. I gave it to some friends to 37 00:02:09,080 --> 00:02:11,780 read and they said we're not going to be friends with you 38 00:02:11,790 --> 00:02:14,670 anymore if you make us read this again, which is totally fine. 39 00:02:14,680 --> 00:02:17,050 It's all about the journey. I didn't really expect it to be 40 00:02:17,060 --> 00:02:20,090 amazing, but it's so hard to write a good novel in case 41 00:02:20,100 --> 00:02:22,740 people are thinking about doing that or under appreciating the 42 00:02:22,750 --> 00:02:25,450 authors that they currently like after that. 43 00:02:25,520 --> 00:02:29,140 So now we're 2456 years out of law school. 44 00:02:29,190 --> 00:02:33,120 I freelance is a bit. I edited legal encyclopedias for 45 00:02:33,190 --> 00:02:35,400 years for Halsbury's Laws of Canada. 46 00:02:35,590 --> 00:02:39,160 Eventually I was an indigenous rights lawyer at a firm in trial 47 00:02:39,170 --> 00:02:42,810 called Pape Salter Taye. I was there for three, 3 1/2 48 00:02:42,820 --> 00:02:48,560 years give or take. And then in 2015 ish I left that 49 00:02:48,570 --> 00:02:51,760 job and started my own practice that I currently have that tell 50 00:02:51,770 --> 00:02:54,660 people where I teach communication and storytelling 51 00:02:54,670 --> 00:02:56,800 to lawyers and other professionals. 52 00:02:56,850 --> 00:02:59,460 And I've been doing this for almost 10 years. 53 00:02:59,470 --> 00:03:02,260 I can't remember the exact date, but I think 10 years is a fair 54 00:03:02,330 --> 00:03:03,410 summary. Yeah. 55 00:03:08,750 --> 00:03:11,620 If you're an internationally trained lawyer or law student 56 00:03:11,630 --> 00:03:15,460 working in or trying to break into an English speaking common 57 00:03:15,470 --> 00:03:19,140 law system, you know that legal writing is one of the biggest 58 00:03:19,150 --> 00:03:22,500 challenges and one of the most important skills to master. 59 00:03:23,430 --> 00:03:25,280 That's where Grammatica comes in. 60 00:03:25,710 --> 00:03:28,740 I'm Rebecca Lockwood, the lawyer, mediator, educator and 61 00:03:28,750 --> 00:03:30,740 founder of Gramatica International. 62 00:03:31,640 --> 00:03:35,970 We help lawyers and law students to write sharper, speak clearer, 63 00:03:36,080 --> 00:03:40,490 and land more interviews with on demand online courses, live 64 00:03:40,500 --> 00:03:43,850 workshops and one-on-one consulting designed just for 65 00:03:43,860 --> 00:03:46,730 legal professionals. I have worked with so many 66 00:03:46,740 --> 00:03:50,090 lawyers like you who are exceptionally smart, qualified 67 00:03:50,100 --> 00:03:53,390 and capable, but need some guidance to really stand out in 68 00:03:53,400 --> 00:03:56,500 a competitive legal market. And I get it myself, having 69 00:03:56,510 --> 00:03:59,610 lived and worked in five countries during my 17 years in 70 00:03:59,620 --> 00:04:02,670 law and education. Whether you're looking to 71 00:04:02,680 --> 00:04:06,290 sharpen your writing skills generally, refresh your CD, or 72 00:04:06,300 --> 00:04:09,320 draft an application for a law program, Grammatica can help. 73 00:04:09,990 --> 00:04:17,870 Visit Grammatico to get started. If I may ask, what what made you 74 00:04:17,880 --> 00:04:20,279 take that turn into entrepreneurship? 75 00:04:20,290 --> 00:04:23,810 I mean, writing a novel of that have have definitely something 76 00:04:23,820 --> 00:04:25,990 to do with that. But you know what? 77 00:04:26,000 --> 00:04:29,030 What really made you take that turn and then maybe even what 78 00:04:29,040 --> 00:04:30,640 did you learn about the law and communication? 79 00:04:30,650 --> 00:04:32,910 Along the way, well, the answer to your first question, how do I 80 00:04:32,920 --> 00:04:35,150 make that turn? I mean, the short answer is I 81 00:04:35,160 --> 00:04:37,810 didn't like having a boss. It's something that I did 82 00:04:37,820 --> 00:04:40,110 nothing against having a boss and it's certainly not an 83 00:04:40,120 --> 00:04:42,630 indictment of any of the places where I was working. 84 00:04:42,680 --> 00:04:46,940 But I, yeah, I realized as I was going along where I worked at 85 00:04:46,950 --> 00:04:49,230 this Indigenous rights firm, it was pretty small at the time. 86 00:04:49,240 --> 00:04:52,830 I think it was 4 guys in a house and they're all partners. 87 00:04:52,880 --> 00:04:55,040 And so when they have a partner meeting, I just like sit in the 88 00:04:55,050 --> 00:04:58,030 kitchen by myself while they decide the future, which is 89 00:04:58,100 --> 00:04:59,920 absolutely the appropriate structure. 90 00:04:59,930 --> 00:05:01,210 Like that's how a law firm works. 91 00:05:01,280 --> 00:05:04,710 But I was noticing at that time I was like, I don't like this. 92 00:05:04,920 --> 00:05:06,820 And it took like it's a finer agement. 93 00:05:06,830 --> 00:05:09,190 Lots of people would. I thought, I'm not loving this. 94 00:05:09,200 --> 00:05:12,510 And so I thought that was the second time I've been a lawyer. 95 00:05:12,600 --> 00:05:16,530 And it was a, you know, small firm and annex of Toronto. 96 00:05:16,600 --> 00:05:18,890 And previously I worked at this giant firm SNC. 97 00:05:18,900 --> 00:05:23,010 So having tried 2 pretty different fields, I thought I 98 00:05:23,020 --> 00:05:25,850 should try something very different next time. 99 00:05:25,940 --> 00:05:29,190 And so, you know, starting a business is just one of my good 100 00:05:29,200 --> 00:05:32,290 at that people might pay for. And I was pretty into 101 00:05:32,300 --> 00:05:34,530 storytelling at this time. There was a big there continues 102 00:05:34,540 --> 00:05:37,630 to be a vibrant storytelling community in Toronto, people on 103 00:05:37,640 --> 00:05:39,990 stages telling stories. So I've been doing that for 104 00:05:40,000 --> 00:05:42,690 quite a while and I thought maybe I'll start a consulting 105 00:05:42,700 --> 00:05:44,870 practice or training practice. The startup costs are pretty 106 00:05:44,880 --> 00:05:47,030 low. And as any lawyer will tell you, 107 00:05:47,040 --> 00:05:49,970 if your adventure fails, you can always go back to being a 108 00:05:49,980 --> 00:05:51,690 lawyer. So I always felt like I had the 109 00:05:51,700 --> 00:05:53,890 safety net if I needed. It fantastic. 110 00:05:53,900 --> 00:05:57,300 I, I saw a little bit about the work you do with today's in 111 00:05:57,310 --> 00:06:03,240 Toronto and then I also saw you, you coached over like 15,000 112 00:06:03,250 --> 00:06:05,530 professionals, including many lawyers in that. 113 00:06:05,600 --> 00:06:09,030 So maybe what are some common mistakes that you see lawyers 114 00:06:09,040 --> 00:06:13,210 making when they try to explain things or connect with people? 115 00:06:13,310 --> 00:06:15,760 Well, that's really interesting. I mean, it's hard to talk about 116 00:06:16,170 --> 00:06:20,460 common mistakes in a sense, because everybody, everybody's a 117 00:06:20,470 --> 00:06:22,970 bit different and everybody's circumstances are a bit 118 00:06:22,980 --> 00:06:24,760 different. So I don't really think about it 119 00:06:24,770 --> 00:06:26,670 that way. I guess one thing I might say 120 00:06:26,680 --> 00:06:30,630 that I, I tend to notice is professionals generally tend to 121 00:06:30,640 --> 00:06:34,390 talk a lot about facts and they tend to try to extract their 122 00:06:34,400 --> 00:06:37,250 personality from what it is that they're trying to communicate. 123 00:06:37,460 --> 00:06:40,130 If that person is giving a, I mean, like a Ted talk would be a 124 00:06:40,140 --> 00:06:42,660 good example of this. So a person giving a Ted talk, 125 00:06:42,670 --> 00:06:46,150 they will often initially want to just give the information 126 00:06:46,200 --> 00:06:48,590 like, here's the idea, here's the evidence, here's the 127 00:06:48,600 --> 00:06:50,860 research, etcetera. And missing from all of that 128 00:06:50,870 --> 00:06:53,770 would be anything about them. So it's almost like they're like 129 00:06:53,780 --> 00:06:56,510 a literal talking head but with no face, no features, nothing. 130 00:06:56,520 --> 00:06:59,030 And it's very hard for the person you're talking to to 131 00:06:59,040 --> 00:07:00,460 connect with. You know, you mentioned 132 00:07:00,640 --> 00:07:02,700 connection. If you're not there, if you're 133 00:07:02,710 --> 00:07:05,030 not in what you're saying or present, there's nothing for the 134 00:07:05,040 --> 00:07:07,420 audience to connect with. And the way people experience 135 00:07:07,430 --> 00:07:11,190 this is typically as boredom is they just zonk out. 136 00:07:11,280 --> 00:07:13,350 It's very hard to say super engaged with that. 137 00:07:13,360 --> 00:07:15,030 It's really like reading. You know, you're mentioning 138 00:07:15,040 --> 00:07:17,230 before we get on here, you're studying for the bar hold the 139 00:07:17,240 --> 00:07:19,430 bar exam materials are a perfect example of this. 140 00:07:19,500 --> 00:07:22,690 They are absolutely not designed to have personality at all. 141 00:07:22,740 --> 00:07:24,530 And that's fine. This very like specific use 142 00:07:24,540 --> 00:07:28,190 case, but imagine a person like the person equivalent of the bar 143 00:07:28,200 --> 00:07:30,730 exam study materials. This is what a lot of 144 00:07:30,740 --> 00:07:33,470 professionals seem to aspire to when they talk to groups 145 00:07:33,480 --> 00:07:37,470 unintentionally I think, but it is just as hard connect with 146 00:07:37,480 --> 00:07:39,850 people acting that way or speaking that way as it is to 147 00:07:39,860 --> 00:07:42,730 connect with your bar exam crap materials. 148 00:07:42,780 --> 00:07:46,420 Fantastic. Well, in my in my experience in 149 00:07:46,430 --> 00:07:49,380 different countries now, it seems like a lot of law students 150 00:07:49,390 --> 00:07:52,270 are trained to in some way sound smart. 151 00:07:52,340 --> 00:07:56,070 So use a lot of big words, complex arguments, try to, you 152 00:07:56,080 --> 00:07:59,700 know, unravel a lot of a a situation when we were 153 00:07:59,710 --> 00:08:03,630 explaining something and and what would you say then to 154 00:08:03,640 --> 00:08:07,100 someone who is afraid that maybe a simple language might make 155 00:08:07,110 --> 00:08:09,090 them sound less credible? Because I want to ask you a 156 00:08:09,100 --> 00:08:11,030 question. So you mentioned this in a, in a 157 00:08:11,040 --> 00:08:13,570 prep that you sent to me and I was so curious to read that. 158 00:08:13,580 --> 00:08:16,590 So why doesn't it? Have you, have you been taught 159 00:08:16,600 --> 00:08:18,470 that you have to use big words to sound smart? 160 00:08:18,480 --> 00:08:21,170 Is this like an experience that you've had at at law school? 161 00:08:21,800 --> 00:08:25,330 I would say that more and more I've been taught the other way 162 00:08:25,340 --> 00:08:28,950 around ages since that we should use, you know, playing English 163 00:08:28,960 --> 00:08:31,490 and the playing English movement and all of that. 164 00:08:31,800 --> 00:08:34,690 But, but I do see more often than not that a lot of 165 00:08:34,700 --> 00:08:38,850 colleagues that that do use a lot of big words and, and say 166 00:08:38,860 --> 00:08:43,510 things in a complex way seem to, to gather some admiration. 167 00:08:43,520 --> 00:08:48,270 So I was very curious to to hear if that has ever been something 168 00:08:48,280 --> 00:08:50,420 that you've experienced. That's really interesting. 169 00:08:50,490 --> 00:08:53,140 I mean, so you asked, you know, what are some advice or 170 00:08:53,150 --> 00:08:54,920 something? And I, I think that the standard 171 00:08:54,930 --> 00:08:57,260 advice is simply to just think about the audience. 172 00:08:57,270 --> 00:09:00,200 And so if you recognize that the people you're talking to really 173 00:09:00,210 --> 00:09:02,600 value, let's call it expensive language. 174 00:09:02,670 --> 00:09:05,240 I don't know, for lack of a better term, have edit right. 175 00:09:05,250 --> 00:09:07,600 You know, if you're at, if you're in a, when I was in 176 00:09:07,610 --> 00:09:09,530 England, there is, there's something that they have in 177 00:09:09,540 --> 00:09:12,510 England called Latin camp. So Latin is much taught over in 178 00:09:12,520 --> 00:09:14,680 the British school system. And so they have summer camps 179 00:09:14,690 --> 00:09:16,540 where you can go and like brush up on your Latin. 180 00:09:16,710 --> 00:09:18,940 And so I think it would be totally fine to go to a place 181 00:09:18,950 --> 00:09:22,450 like that and use Latin like literal Latin phrases all the 182 00:09:22,460 --> 00:09:23,620 time. Or, you know, there's a 183 00:09:23,630 --> 00:09:25,480 different reputation in that place. 184 00:09:25,580 --> 00:09:28,530 But if you're not in a situation where it seems that people are 185 00:09:28,540 --> 00:09:31,670 valuing upscale language or expensive language, or if your 186 00:09:31,680 --> 00:09:34,680 goal is really to connect with people, I think it behooves you 187 00:09:34,690 --> 00:09:37,100 to think very hard about what is going to make the person I'm 188 00:09:37,110 --> 00:09:39,440 talking to feel comfortable, feel like they can engage with 189 00:09:39,450 --> 00:09:43,840 me as a peer, and then make a language choices accordingly. 190 00:09:44,190 --> 00:09:46,710 You know, as I'm saying this, it strikes me that if you're trying 191 00:09:46,720 --> 00:09:49,720 to sound smart, that's mostly you're thinking about yourself 192 00:09:49,790 --> 00:09:52,180 and your own image. But I think I personally think 193 00:09:52,290 --> 00:09:54,280 when you're talking to an audience or even just another 194 00:09:54,290 --> 00:09:57,360 person, surely the goal there is to make the other person feel 195 00:09:57,410 --> 00:10:00,030 comfortable, right? To make them feel like a peer or 196 00:10:00,040 --> 00:10:02,500 equal or something like this. And to think of your 197 00:10:02,510 --> 00:10:05,780 communication as a way that you can serve the person you're 198 00:10:05,830 --> 00:10:07,560 talking to. Fantastic. 199 00:10:08,260 --> 00:10:12,330 And, and, and going on that. So instead of making a statement 200 00:10:12,340 --> 00:10:16,370 here, I'll ask you a question. So have you ever had to speak in 201 00:10:16,380 --> 00:10:20,690 a room where people were very skeptical or resistant without 202 00:10:20,700 --> 00:10:23,850 even, you know, giving you a chance to come up with your 203 00:10:23,860 --> 00:10:26,130 message? Has has that ever been 204 00:10:26,200 --> 00:10:27,570 inexperience that you've been on? 205 00:10:27,580 --> 00:10:29,230 Sure. That my initial idea is I would 206 00:10:29,240 --> 00:10:33,390 do training for lawyers because I had seen Laura training. 207 00:10:33,400 --> 00:10:36,170 It seemed like the people have an existing time and an existing 208 00:10:36,180 --> 00:10:39,310 budget to buy trading sessions. So I emailed everybody I went to 209 00:10:39,320 --> 00:10:41,710 law school with and I said, can you please introduce me to the 210 00:10:41,720 --> 00:10:44,450 person at your firm who buys professional development? 211 00:10:44,500 --> 00:10:46,650 And so I set up a bunch of meetings and I went down and I 212 00:10:46,660 --> 00:10:49,150 said here's what I'm up to. The very first meeting I had 213 00:10:49,160 --> 00:10:52,670 with a firm downtown in trial, the person hear my pitch and she 214 00:10:52,680 --> 00:10:54,730 was like, amazing, we'd love to work with you. 215 00:10:54,790 --> 00:10:57,980 The very next day, I gave my second ever pitch to a different 216 00:10:57,990 --> 00:11:01,850 firm, and this time the person said, you've made a mistake 217 00:11:01,910 --> 00:11:04,830 starting your business. Yeah, which is the hardest note 218 00:11:04,840 --> 00:11:07,330 I've ever experienced. I think that's also the most 219 00:11:07,340 --> 00:11:10,260 skepticism I have ever encountered in an actual person. 220 00:11:10,470 --> 00:11:12,880 So yes, I have experienced what you described. 221 00:11:12,890 --> 00:11:17,340 Alright, And taking that into consideration and thinking about 222 00:11:18,070 --> 00:11:21,760 the audience and the other person, do you have any any tips 223 00:11:21,770 --> 00:11:26,220 or leads for when people find such a skeptical or resistant 224 00:11:26,230 --> 00:11:28,540 audience? Is there any way to ring people 225 00:11:28,550 --> 00:11:30,800 over? So my question to you would be 226 00:11:30,870 --> 00:11:33,780 if you pitched me, let's say you pitched me on this podcast and I 227 00:11:33,790 --> 00:11:36,530 said, I think audio you've made a mistake with your life 228 00:11:36,600 --> 00:11:40,140 creating this podcast in mini. Now somebody you actually want 229 00:11:40,150 --> 00:11:42,510 to win over. Do you really want to have a 230 00:11:42,620 --> 00:11:43,930 people can't see you shaking your head. 231 00:11:43,940 --> 00:11:46,210 You have to say you're. Absolutely not. 232 00:11:46,260 --> 00:11:49,390 Yeah, so I think that maybe is part of the answer to the 233 00:11:49,400 --> 00:11:52,070 question. Another of a less sort of 234 00:11:52,080 --> 00:11:55,260 cynical or pointed way to make this point is, and how I've come 235 00:11:55,270 --> 00:11:58,370 to think of it is you don't have to convince everyone in order to 236 00:11:58,380 --> 00:12:01,190 be successful. So the real punchline from that 237 00:12:01,200 --> 00:12:04,710 story is not that the lady or the person was really didn't 238 00:12:04,720 --> 00:12:07,210 like the idea. It's that neither of those 239 00:12:07,220 --> 00:12:09,470 pitches have ever yielded business. 240 00:12:09,520 --> 00:12:12,450 So not only the person who hated it never called me, the person 241 00:12:12,460 --> 00:12:15,270 who told me they loved it has also never called me. 242 00:12:15,320 --> 00:12:19,250 And yet here I am sufficiently successful be on your podcast. 243 00:12:19,260 --> 00:12:21,610 So you don't need to giving everyone in order to be 244 00:12:21,620 --> 00:12:24,670 successful is maybe the way I would think about that. 245 00:12:24,720 --> 00:12:27,470 The other thing I might say is if you're, if you're looking 246 00:12:27,480 --> 00:12:30,650 for, if you're looking outside of yourself to feel good about 247 00:12:30,660 --> 00:12:34,310 your communication and your ideas, that's a dangerous place 248 00:12:34,320 --> 00:12:36,310 to look. All you really control is how 249 00:12:36,320 --> 00:12:39,230 you feel about your stuff. And it's obviously great when 250 00:12:39,240 --> 00:12:41,470 people recognize it and they engage with you and it's 251 00:12:41,480 --> 00:12:43,700 validating and so on. And they have to at some point 252 00:12:43,710 --> 00:12:46,750 for you to get on in the world. But if I could go back in time 253 00:12:46,760 --> 00:12:50,110 and retake both of those meetings, I think I would spend 254 00:12:50,120 --> 00:12:52,910 much more time feeling good myself about my pitch. 255 00:12:52,920 --> 00:12:54,650 Like, yes, this is what I want to communicate. 256 00:12:54,720 --> 00:12:56,550 I feel good about this. I believe in it. 257 00:12:57,250 --> 00:12:59,250 And then I would be much, I would have much, much less 258 00:12:59,260 --> 00:13:01,930 attachment to whatever the response is. 259 00:13:01,940 --> 00:13:04,520 And in the second one, well, in the first one, it was really 260 00:13:04,530 --> 00:13:06,610 positive. I wouldn't have been so anxious 261 00:13:06,620 --> 00:13:09,360 to receive work from them. So I was like kind of bummed for 262 00:13:09,370 --> 00:13:10,760 months that they never called me. 263 00:13:10,830 --> 00:13:14,160 And then the other one, I was totally flustered as soon as 264 00:13:14,170 --> 00:13:17,400 this lady gave me such difficult feedback and we were in this 265 00:13:17,410 --> 00:13:20,820 tiny conference room in this like way up in the building. 266 00:13:20,890 --> 00:13:23,500 She had to escort me out because they, you know, they, they have 267 00:13:23,510 --> 00:13:25,500 key cards. So we just like walk like we're 268 00:13:25,510 --> 00:13:27,160 pals after this terrible meeting. 269 00:13:27,230 --> 00:13:30,460 But if I had gone into that meeting feeling like very secure 270 00:13:30,510 --> 00:13:34,760 in my ideas, then it would have been much less debilitating to 271 00:13:34,770 --> 00:13:36,780 hear this feedback. Could have just it would have 272 00:13:36,790 --> 00:13:38,520 just been like, Oh, this doesn't resonate with you. 273 00:13:38,530 --> 00:13:40,320 That's OK. Maybe we could have had a more 274 00:13:40,330 --> 00:13:42,800 interesting conversation about why it didn't resonate, because 275 00:13:42,810 --> 00:13:44,700 all I was able to contribute was like, sorry. 276 00:13:44,710 --> 00:13:47,900 Very enough, fair enough. I love that I've I actually just 277 00:13:47,910 --> 00:13:51,280 had a podcast that that came out this week and we were talking 278 00:13:51,290 --> 00:13:54,240 about the recruitment process and articling and all of that 279 00:13:54,250 --> 00:13:57,260 and one of the topics that we spoke on was specifically 280 00:13:57,270 --> 00:14:00,540 finding validation outside yourself right. 281 00:14:00,550 --> 00:14:03,800 If if it's not based on you, that becomes a lot harder. 282 00:14:03,810 --> 00:14:07,480 So I'm finding it fascinating that this topic has come up 283 00:14:07,490 --> 00:14:08,820 again. You were you were saying 284 00:14:08,830 --> 00:14:12,000 something very interesting, but I'm thinking about, you know, an 285 00:14:12,070 --> 00:14:15,780 advocate, a lawyer who actually is trying to convince either a 286 00:14:15,790 --> 00:14:19,340 jury or a judge. And then those are very specific 287 00:14:19,350 --> 00:14:22,650 cases in audiences. How about in those cases that 288 00:14:22,870 --> 00:14:26,540 you know, even though you cannot predict results, you do want to 289 00:14:26,550 --> 00:14:28,720 please your audience. You do want to make sure that 290 00:14:28,730 --> 00:14:32,300 you are well understood, but as you said, there's only so much 291 00:14:32,310 --> 00:14:35,160 you can control. But but how do you prepare for 292 00:14:35,220 --> 00:14:38,980 that kind of situation then differently than you would for a 293 00:14:38,990 --> 00:14:41,720 business speech where maybe not as much as at risk? 294 00:14:41,730 --> 00:14:45,040 Does that make any? Sense I think so I guess my 295 00:14:45,050 --> 00:14:47,680 initial thought here is I've never been to court. 296 00:14:47,730 --> 00:14:51,200 So I like I mooted a lot in law school, but I so I don't have 297 00:14:51,210 --> 00:14:54,380 anything really specific to say about preparing for advocacy 298 00:14:54,430 --> 00:14:57,160 except to say you know you you prepare in the way that you know 299 00:14:57,170 --> 00:15:00,120 well support yourself the best, which presumably you have 300 00:15:00,130 --> 00:15:02,860 learned from your mentors or the people you work with at your 301 00:15:02,910 --> 00:15:04,880 firm where you litigate and so on. 302 00:15:04,950 --> 00:15:07,910 But the thing about being nervous is that and feeling like 303 00:15:07,920 --> 00:15:10,820 the outcome really matters is that it, it tends, in my 304 00:15:10,830 --> 00:15:13,260 experience at least, it makes people forget themselves. 305 00:15:13,310 --> 00:15:15,060 So we have this, we have this profit law school. 306 00:15:15,070 --> 00:15:16,090 I don't think he's there anymore. 307 00:15:16,100 --> 00:15:18,890 He was a retired criminal defence attorney, very famous 308 00:15:18,900 --> 00:15:20,940 Michael Code. And this is, this is not a mean 309 00:15:20,950 --> 00:15:21,940 story. It's a great story. 310 00:15:21,990 --> 00:15:24,370 So he was there, very famous, very successful attorney. 311 00:15:24,380 --> 00:15:26,160 And then he was teaching at the law school. 312 00:15:26,250 --> 00:15:27,780 Honestly, like fantastic teacher. 313 00:15:27,790 --> 00:15:30,940 I think he was the voted best teacher multiple years when he 314 00:15:30,950 --> 00:15:33,800 was there. And he said once that he never 315 00:15:33,810 --> 00:15:36,000 felt like he made his best arguments in court. 316 00:15:36,070 --> 00:15:39,040 They always seem to come to him later that night when he was 317 00:15:39,050 --> 00:15:41,730 brushing his teeth. And like, on the one hand, first 318 00:15:41,740 --> 00:15:42,980 of all, of course, this makes sense. 319 00:15:42,990 --> 00:15:45,320 And we all everybody was like, you know, yes, even for this 320 00:15:45,390 --> 00:15:48,200 storied advocate, of course, that that would be the case. 321 00:15:48,270 --> 00:15:51,010 And you'll partly you get a bit more time to think, right? 322 00:15:51,070 --> 00:15:53,320 But mostly I think the difference is there's no 323 00:15:53,330 --> 00:15:55,060 pressure when you're brushing your teeth. 324 00:15:55,110 --> 00:15:57,110 There's no judge. The other side is not there. 325 00:15:57,120 --> 00:15:59,460 There's no gallery. Actually went down to watch him 326 00:15:59,470 --> 00:16:01,570 once, which was very cool. But there's yeah, there's like 327 00:16:01,580 --> 00:16:04,100 strangers in the audience, the papers there sometimes. 328 00:16:04,150 --> 00:16:06,960 So when people are having this pressure, you completely forget 329 00:16:06,970 --> 00:16:09,440 that you know what to do, that you have prepared. 330 00:16:09,890 --> 00:16:11,900 This guy knows how to advocate It's. 331 00:16:11,950 --> 00:16:14,700 And even he under all the pressure can sometimes feel like 332 00:16:14,770 --> 00:16:17,740 I actually don't have great access to my preparation or I 333 00:16:17,750 --> 00:16:20,060 forget some of how I've done this before and so on. 334 00:16:20,270 --> 00:16:24,220 And so you know circling back to in, in practice, I suppose it is 335 00:16:24,230 --> 00:16:27,300 true that there is maybe more at stake in a TRU, certainly a 336 00:16:27,310 --> 00:16:31,220 criminal trial right versus a business negotiation or like me 337 00:16:31,230 --> 00:16:34,430 pitching this business. But I'm not sure thinking about 338 00:16:34,440 --> 00:16:37,430 it as higher stakes actually contributes to better 339 00:16:37,500 --> 00:16:40,070 performance is maybe where I would come out on that. 340 00:16:40,140 --> 00:16:42,730 That makes a lot of sense. I really appreciate that. 341 00:16:42,740 --> 00:16:46,610 And I guess the same applies to anything to, to an interview or, 342 00:16:46,620 --> 00:16:51,170 or any of those very communication based experiences. 343 00:16:51,180 --> 00:16:54,750 I've also seen some of the things you wrote before saying 344 00:16:54,760 --> 00:16:57,870 that communication is not a gift, but it's a skill. 345 00:16:57,880 --> 00:17:01,990 And I'd love to hear a little bit about maybe things that law 346 00:17:02,000 --> 00:17:04,970 students or young lawyers can start doing right now to get 347 00:17:04,980 --> 00:17:07,650 better at speaking clearly, speaking with confidence, 348 00:17:07,700 --> 00:17:13,520 regardless of the audience. You know, as we've been hearing 349 00:17:13,530 --> 00:17:16,619 from lawyers around the world on this show, one thing that's 350 00:17:16,630 --> 00:17:20,099 universal is the challenge of managing massive amounts of case 351 00:17:20,109 --> 00:17:22,099 materials. Whether you're dealing with 352 00:17:22,109 --> 00:17:25,980 witness statements in Sydney or reviewing contracts in Chicago, 353 00:17:26,050 --> 00:17:29,960 the volume can be overwhelming. That's why I wanted to tell you 354 00:17:29,970 --> 00:17:34,180 about Rev. Instead of analyzing documents one at a time, you 355 00:17:34,190 --> 00:17:39,300 upload everything to 1 workspace PDF's, audio recordings, video 356 00:17:39,310 --> 00:17:44,780 depositions, transcripts, Revs. AI analyzes them altogether and 357 00:17:44,790 --> 00:17:48,440 spots connections you'd never catch working file by file. 358 00:17:48,510 --> 00:17:51,700 Every insight comes with clickable citations that take 359 00:17:51,710 --> 00:17:54,690 you right back to the source. So when the AI finds a 360 00:17:54,700 --> 00:17:57,930 contradiction between witness statements, you can verify it 361 00:17:57,940 --> 00:18:00,330 instantly. Whether you're a law student or 362 00:18:00,340 --> 00:18:03,870 practicing attorney building your international career, Rev 363 00:18:03,880 --> 00:18:07,110 Insights gives you that edge our guests always talk about. 364 00:18:07,120 --> 00:18:15,470 Check it out at rev.com. Oh gosh, I mean, it's hard to 365 00:18:15,520 --> 00:18:18,510 you're asking me to think about 20 years ago in my life, 366 00:18:18,520 --> 00:18:20,330 Claudio. So I'm trying to, I have to sort 367 00:18:20,340 --> 00:18:23,230 of try to remember back to what it was like for me being a law 368 00:18:23,240 --> 00:18:25,430 student, although I coach a lot of law students at UT. 369 00:18:25,440 --> 00:18:26,890 So I'm a little bit in touch with this. 370 00:18:26,960 --> 00:18:29,170 You know, one of the things that's a very law school 371 00:18:29,180 --> 00:18:33,520 specific thing would be to moot. And I know, like again, I, I 372 00:18:33,530 --> 00:18:36,240 guess, I'm sure people beyond UFT listen to this, but I at 373 00:18:36,250 --> 00:18:38,850 least at UT law school, it's there's a mandatory mood 374 00:18:38,860 --> 00:18:42,670 experience at least once in the course of your time there and 375 00:18:42,680 --> 00:18:45,090 many, many other opportunities to do moving. 376 00:18:45,100 --> 00:18:47,830 You know, answering questions in a mood is very similar to 377 00:18:47,840 --> 00:18:50,940 answering questions in class feels like more pressure. 378 00:18:50,950 --> 00:18:53,960 Although lots of first year law students I talked to experience 379 00:18:53,970 --> 00:18:56,290 like the pressure first here. I definitely remember how much 380 00:18:56,300 --> 00:18:57,870 pressure it felt to answer questions. 381 00:18:57,920 --> 00:19:01,110 But there's a huge opportunity there to practice answering 382 00:19:01,120 --> 00:19:03,770 questions on the fly from other very smart people. 383 00:19:03,840 --> 00:19:06,150 And it like it doesn't, it literally doesn't matter. 384 00:19:06,240 --> 00:19:09,190 There's no nobody who cares about your moving results as 385 00:19:09,200 --> 00:19:12,130 soon as you leave law school. So there's this huge, there's 386 00:19:12,140 --> 00:19:15,370 almost like this great gym that you can go to and work out your 387 00:19:15,380 --> 00:19:18,430 mind and you're speaking. And it's, it can be nerve 388 00:19:18,440 --> 00:19:22,630 wracking at first, But I mean, I still think about mood practice 389 00:19:22,710 --> 00:19:25,710 20 years later as part of my communication training and how I 390 00:19:25,720 --> 00:19:28,030 try to engage with people. So that might be something I 391 00:19:28,040 --> 00:19:31,610 would say that is uniquely available to law students where 392 00:19:31,620 --> 00:19:35,510 you can definitely advance your communication abilities in a way 393 00:19:35,520 --> 00:19:38,830 that is not widely available. Elsewhere, fantastic. 394 00:19:38,840 --> 00:19:41,980 A lot of my audience here is speaking about the podcast, our 395 00:19:41,990 --> 00:19:45,020 internationally trained lawyers building a career in Canada 396 00:19:45,030 --> 00:19:48,620 primarily, but also in in the US or the UK. 397 00:19:48,880 --> 00:19:52,660 And I'm wondering if there's a few habits that you think that 398 00:19:52,670 --> 00:19:55,760 could help disguise lawyers who are, you know, showing 399 00:19:55,770 --> 00:19:58,850 themselves in a second language now and speaking specifically 400 00:19:58,860 --> 00:20:02,980 about communication, basically a lawyer's only Garmin, such as, 401 00:20:02,990 --> 00:20:06,780 say, are there a few things you see that might help these these 402 00:20:06,790 --> 00:20:10,220 internationally trained lawyers or maybe just lawyers in general 403 00:20:10,310 --> 00:20:13,770 to either stand out or maybe that would hold them back? 404 00:20:13,780 --> 00:20:15,820 That's interesting. I mean, it's hard sometimes to 405 00:20:15,870 --> 00:20:17,500 to give advice into the abstract. 406 00:20:18,760 --> 00:20:22,990 One thing that's coming to mind is this is going to make perhaps 407 00:20:23,000 --> 00:20:25,330 going to sound even too simple. But so when somebody asks you a 408 00:20:25,340 --> 00:20:27,600 question and it's an open-ended question and you feel like you 409 00:20:27,610 --> 00:20:31,190 have lots to say rather than just jumping into the answer. 410 00:20:31,200 --> 00:20:33,370 So I feel like when people are asked the question, they often 411 00:20:33,380 --> 00:20:35,720 feel like they have to immediately respond, which is 412 00:20:35,730 --> 00:20:38,510 just a way of reducing the uncertainty that exists before 413 00:20:38,520 --> 00:20:40,930 the question is answered. And uncertainty can be a cause 414 00:20:40,940 --> 00:20:43,400 of stress. So rather than jumping into the 415 00:20:43,410 --> 00:20:47,070 answer and starting to talk and ultimately like, like you ramble 416 00:20:47,080 --> 00:20:49,590 or it's confusing because you guys start talking before you 417 00:20:49,600 --> 00:20:50,610 know where you're going to finish. 418 00:20:50,620 --> 00:20:53,680 It's often helpful to just take a beat and say, that's an 419 00:20:53,690 --> 00:20:55,650 interesting question. I think I have three things to 420 00:20:55,660 --> 00:20:58,050 say about that and then say the exact same thing. 421 00:20:58,100 --> 00:21:00,810 So even just announcing the number of points that you're 422 00:21:00,820 --> 00:21:04,200 about to make in a really long answer, this one makes it much 423 00:21:04,210 --> 00:21:06,660 easier for the audience to follow along because you've told 424 00:21:06,670 --> 00:21:08,540 them in advance. There are three things coming. 425 00:21:08,590 --> 00:21:11,320 But two, perhaps more important, it gives you permission to stop 426 00:21:11,330 --> 00:21:14,420 talking at the end of the Third Point in this example. 427 00:21:14,430 --> 00:21:19,340 And especially when you are talking to somebody, even like 428 00:21:19,350 --> 00:21:22,060 we're talking on a Zoom call here, But if you're talking and 429 00:21:22,070 --> 00:21:23,860 you don't quite know when you're finished and you're a bit 430 00:21:23,870 --> 00:21:26,420 nervous, you're waiting for the other person to make a, some 431 00:21:26,430 --> 00:21:28,880 sort of face that indicates that they're ready to talk, 432 00:21:28,890 --> 00:21:31,200 intervene. And my experience is that's not 433 00:21:31,210 --> 00:21:34,070 what most people do. And so you just go on and on and 434 00:21:34,080 --> 00:21:36,340 on and on. And, and then the longer you 435 00:21:36,350 --> 00:21:38,420 talk, the more anxious you feel and it kind of spirals. 436 00:21:38,430 --> 00:21:41,320 So if you can use this sort of simple Rd. 437 00:21:41,330 --> 00:21:44,140 Mapping strategy. This is something I think that 438 00:21:44,150 --> 00:21:47,510 can help you feel a bit more in control of your communication in 439 00:21:47,520 --> 00:21:49,740 situations where you feel a little bit anxious. 440 00:21:49,750 --> 00:21:53,350 That's fantastic. What a great piece of advice. 441 00:21:53,460 --> 00:21:58,130 I found myself in a hearing yesterday and because of the I 442 00:21:58,140 --> 00:22:00,450 think it has a lot to do with the personality of the person 443 00:22:00,460 --> 00:22:04,030 presiding the the hearing. At the end of each submission 444 00:22:04,040 --> 00:22:08,330 she would double check with the council and say are are you done 445 00:22:08,340 --> 00:22:10,910 just checking just in case. I know some people like to have 446 00:22:10,920 --> 00:22:15,590 a pause and as I heard you, I was just thinking if you know 447 00:22:15,600 --> 00:22:18,130 that was the case, if people actually do that road mapping 448 00:22:18,140 --> 00:22:21,850 and say I have three points 123 by the end of it, there's no 449 00:22:21,860 --> 00:22:24,770 question that they've finished their submissions. 450 00:22:24,840 --> 00:22:27,840 So I, I really appreciate that and I see how that's so 451 00:22:27,850 --> 00:22:29,670 applicable. Maybe you've just done it 452 00:22:29,680 --> 00:22:30,840 yourself. I love it. 453 00:22:30,850 --> 00:22:33,590 You know, you mentioned submissions and so in in very 454 00:22:33,600 --> 00:22:36,690 formal communication, formal writing, of course you would 455 00:22:36,700 --> 00:22:38,340 include these Rd. maps all over the place. 456 00:22:38,350 --> 00:22:40,980 This is a very common thing. What I have found is people are 457 00:22:40,990 --> 00:22:43,530 a bit surprised to know that they can incorporate these 458 00:22:43,580 --> 00:22:47,870 essentially writing tools into their more casual or real time 459 00:22:47,880 --> 00:22:50,230 communication. And you can, my experience has 460 00:22:50,240 --> 00:22:52,750 been that lots of professionals are way more comfortable writing 461 00:22:52,760 --> 00:22:55,780 than they are speaking. And I'm sure that's even more so 462 00:22:55,790 --> 00:22:58,080 the case for people whose first language is in English. 463 00:22:58,130 --> 00:23:00,140 Extemporaneous speech is the most challenging. 464 00:23:00,210 --> 00:23:03,080 And so look for ways to leverage what you're good at. 465 00:23:03,150 --> 00:23:04,480 So you're already really good at writing. 466 00:23:04,490 --> 00:23:05,860 You're good at organizing your thoughts. 467 00:23:05,870 --> 00:23:08,380 You can incorporate some of these into speech. 468 00:23:08,450 --> 00:23:11,100 Another, another trick is that when people are talking to you, 469 00:23:11,110 --> 00:23:12,580 you should write down what they're saying. 470 00:23:12,590 --> 00:23:15,130 So even in this conversation, like I have a patient in pain in 471 00:23:15,140 --> 00:23:17,740 front of me and I write down Claudio's questions so that I 472 00:23:17,750 --> 00:23:21,160 can track down all of my responses and I can keep myself 473 00:23:21,170 --> 00:23:23,640 organized even if the responses are a bit longer. 474 00:23:23,650 --> 00:23:26,630 And which is also, we're talking a lot about UFT here, but this 475 00:23:26,640 --> 00:23:27,940 is something I learned from a professor. 476 00:23:27,950 --> 00:23:30,060 I had a UFT, He would do this thing. 477 00:23:30,130 --> 00:23:33,140 It was business organizations. And he would lecture from 478 00:23:33,150 --> 00:23:35,500 memory, but he always have like a piece of paper with him. 479 00:23:35,510 --> 00:23:36,740 And he'd done the class many years. 480 00:23:36,750 --> 00:23:40,040 Claudio, it was, you're still very impressive, very lucid. 481 00:23:40,130 --> 00:23:41,640 And then, you know, people ask questions. 482 00:23:41,650 --> 00:23:43,830 And I'm sure you remember the questions people tend to ask at 483 00:23:43,840 --> 00:23:45,780 law school. They're basically thinking out 484 00:23:45,790 --> 00:23:48,260 loud, like it's just this huge rambling thing. 485 00:23:48,270 --> 00:23:50,440 And and this is fine. But as soon as people start 486 00:23:50,450 --> 00:23:52,290 asking questions, he would get out his piece of paper and he 487 00:23:52,300 --> 00:23:53,700 would make notes. And then when the person 488 00:23:53,710 --> 00:23:56,600 finished talking, which would be like 90 seconds after they 489 00:23:56,610 --> 00:23:59,420 started, he would just look at his page and he would say, OK, 490 00:23:59,430 --> 00:24:01,440 so I think I actually heard four questions there. 491 00:24:01,510 --> 00:24:03,390 Let me take them in turn. So the first thing he said was 492 00:24:03,400 --> 00:24:04,750 this. Here's what I think about that 493 00:24:04,830 --> 00:24:07,300 second thing of this. And it was sounded so 494 00:24:07,310 --> 00:24:09,940 impressive. But also it is not at all 495 00:24:09,950 --> 00:24:13,060 difficult to look at the page of questions that you wrote down 496 00:24:13,070 --> 00:24:14,660 and say, you said this first thing. 497 00:24:14,670 --> 00:24:16,720 Here's what I think. Like it's actually very, very 498 00:24:16,730 --> 00:24:18,410 easy. So that's another that's sort of 499 00:24:18,420 --> 00:24:21,320 like the reverse of using the using the road mapping trick, 500 00:24:21,580 --> 00:24:25,520 but again, it's available and in a more formal setting, like if 501 00:24:25,530 --> 00:24:28,080 you were in a professional meeting, of course you would 502 00:24:28,090 --> 00:24:29,750 take notes and you would follow it along. 503 00:24:29,800 --> 00:24:32,350 But you can just do this in regular conversation. 504 00:24:32,360 --> 00:24:34,290 I mean, I guess it would be weird if you were like at the 505 00:24:34,300 --> 00:24:36,410 pub with your friends and you started taking notes on their 506 00:24:36,420 --> 00:24:38,210 updates. But like, you know, in in more 507 00:24:38,220 --> 00:24:41,310 sort of spontaneous work type interactions, I think, or 508 00:24:41,320 --> 00:24:42,890 podcast. If you're being interviewed by 509 00:24:42,900 --> 00:24:45,530 Claudio, I recommend keeping a pen and pencil. 510 00:24:45,620 --> 00:24:48,170 Amazing. Well, all of that being said, 511 00:24:48,240 --> 00:24:51,750 tell me a little bit about how and what kind of clients you, 512 00:24:51,760 --> 00:24:53,610 you tend to. If people are interested in 513 00:24:53,860 --> 00:24:56,330 chatting further with you and improving their communication 514 00:24:56,340 --> 00:25:00,670 skills, how how do we know if it's a feat and how do they how 515 00:25:00,680 --> 00:25:03,800 can they reach out to you? So you can find out all about me 516 00:25:03,860 --> 00:25:07,190 at Tell People CA I'm sure this will be in the show notes. 517 00:25:07,480 --> 00:25:10,520 And then I'm on LinkedIn that that's the only, those are the 518 00:25:10,530 --> 00:25:13,980 only two places you can find me. I take a limited number of 519 00:25:14,060 --> 00:25:15,870 one-on-one coaching clients every year. 520 00:25:15,880 --> 00:25:18,670 It's mostly for like talk developments. 521 00:25:18,740 --> 00:25:20,910 So I used to, you mentioned earlier that I used to be a 522 00:25:20,920 --> 00:25:24,090 speaker coach at TEDx Toronto. So I'm not TEDx Toronto doesn't 523 00:25:24,100 --> 00:25:27,770 exist anymore, but that sort of I have a significant talk. 524 00:25:27,780 --> 00:25:30,540 I want to be really engaging. So this is kind of the stuff 525 00:25:30,550 --> 00:25:32,150 that I worked together with people on. 526 00:25:32,200 --> 00:25:34,570 But again, it's a I'm pretty selective about that. 527 00:25:34,640 --> 00:25:37,750 The rest of the work is speaking and training and conferences or 528 00:25:37,760 --> 00:25:39,870 retreats or going into organizations. 529 00:25:39,880 --> 00:25:43,430 So I I'll go down to a lot of law firms and, and do a session 530 00:25:43,440 --> 00:25:46,140 in the evening or at lunch for them or like partner retreats 531 00:25:46,150 --> 00:25:48,060 for firm retreats, things like this. 532 00:25:48,130 --> 00:25:50,790 I've been doing more conferences this year, always for 533 00:25:50,800 --> 00:25:53,250 professional services. So I did some like government 534 00:25:53,260 --> 00:25:55,750 finance officers earlier this year, things like this. 535 00:25:55,840 --> 00:25:57,390 Yeah. So that's the sort of work that 536 00:25:57,400 --> 00:26:00,420 I have been doing with people. But all of this is on the on the 537 00:26:00,430 --> 00:26:02,710 website. Yeah, fantastic. 538 00:26:02,720 --> 00:26:05,450 OK. Well, wrapping up today's 539 00:26:05,460 --> 00:26:09,310 episode, if you, you know, could give your younger self, you 540 00:26:09,320 --> 00:26:14,090 know, maybe one or two pieces of advice to, you know, go forward, 541 00:26:14,100 --> 00:26:18,750 whether it is building a better communication style or 542 00:26:18,760 --> 00:26:22,530 communicating yourself better in a more clear manner, what would 543 00:26:22,540 --> 00:26:25,660 you tell yourself about that? To be honest, I would I would 544 00:26:25,670 --> 00:26:28,710 tell myself to meditate more and sooner. 545 00:26:28,780 --> 00:26:33,280 So I, I went all the way through law school and working in New 546 00:26:33,290 --> 00:26:36,310 York City without ever having any sort of like meditation, 547 00:26:36,380 --> 00:26:39,210 mindfulness practice. And to be fair, that sort of 548 00:26:39,220 --> 00:26:42,230 stuff is way more in the culture now than it was 20 years ago. 549 00:26:42,290 --> 00:26:44,910 But I personally think the ability to communicate 550 00:26:44,920 --> 00:26:47,110 meaningfully with other people requires a great deal of 551 00:26:47,120 --> 00:26:49,710 presence and focus and centeredness. 552 00:26:49,800 --> 00:26:52,890 So I can be here fully present with you, Claudio, or with 553 00:26:52,900 --> 00:26:56,130 whoever else I'm talking to. And for me, I spent the last 20 554 00:26:56,140 --> 00:26:59,620 years sort of meditating and having a meditation and 555 00:26:59,630 --> 00:27:02,870 mindfulness practice that has made it a lot easier for me to 556 00:27:02,880 --> 00:27:05,530 be present with people and communicate, feel like I can 557 00:27:05,540 --> 00:27:07,470 communicate in the ways that I want to communicate. 558 00:27:07,480 --> 00:27:10,270 Like I can engage in the way that I want as opposed to being 559 00:27:10,320 --> 00:27:13,610 reacted and having my style of engagement being dependent on 560 00:27:13,690 --> 00:27:17,520 whatever energy comes at me. And, you know, circling back, we 561 00:27:17,530 --> 00:27:20,410 were talking about my criminal law professor and how he was 562 00:27:20,420 --> 00:27:22,910 feeling pressured to communicate in court and so on. 563 00:27:22,920 --> 00:27:25,870 That's just a particular instance of if you are very like 564 00:27:25,880 --> 00:27:28,110 mindful and centred and presence, the stuff that's 565 00:27:28,120 --> 00:27:31,150 happening around you, like outside of you is much less 566 00:27:31,160 --> 00:27:35,270 influential on how you are coming into the interaction. 567 00:27:35,560 --> 00:27:38,310 And so I don't I, I imagine you were hoping for some more 568 00:27:38,320 --> 00:27:41,830 tactical advice, but that's a very, that's maybe like the 569 00:27:41,840 --> 00:27:45,090 water as opposed to the boat. So I would, I would meditate. 570 00:27:45,180 --> 00:27:48,220 I wish I had started meditating 20 years earlier than I did. 571 00:27:48,300 --> 00:27:51,650 No, that's amazing. I love that we were here to talk 572 00:27:51,660 --> 00:27:56,340 about communication, but we came into very deep topics about, you 573 00:27:56,350 --> 00:28:01,030 know, finding your value in what other people react to and 574 00:28:01,040 --> 00:28:03,850 meditation. And I just really liked this 575 00:28:03,860 --> 00:28:08,060 approach that that people were not just, you know, one thing, 576 00:28:08,070 --> 00:28:10,380 but there's just so many things that are related. 577 00:28:10,490 --> 00:28:12,730 And I really appreciate you taking the time for being in the 578 00:28:12,740 --> 00:28:14,520 podcast today. Thank you all for tuning. 579 00:28:14,530 --> 00:28:16,650 In thanks so much, Claudio. It's been a real pleasure and 580 00:28:16,660 --> 00:28:19,370 thank you for doing the podcast. I mean, you're making all these 581 00:28:19,380 --> 00:28:21,300 voices audible to so many people. 582 00:28:21,310 --> 00:28:22,720 So thanks for the work that you're doing. 583 00:28:22,790 --> 00:28:23,240 Thank you.