1 00:00:16,600 --> 00:00:19,090 Hello everybody, Welcome to another episode of Studying Law 2 00:00:19,100 --> 00:00:21,950 around the World. Today I have the opportunity to 3 00:00:21,960 --> 00:00:27,130 be interviewing Professor Abdi Aid and we'll be talking about a 4 00:00:27,170 --> 00:00:30,330 lot of exciting things. Really wanted to thank you so 5 00:00:30,340 --> 00:00:32,990 much for your time and for the opportunity to be talking with 6 00:00:33,000 --> 00:00:34,210 you today. Professor Oh, it's a. 7 00:00:34,220 --> 00:00:36,110 Great pleasure. Thank you so much for inviting 8 00:00:36,120 --> 00:00:38,210 me. You know, you were so curious 9 00:00:38,220 --> 00:00:41,270 about everything and hopefully I can sustain your interest 10 00:00:41,280 --> 00:00:44,470 because I don't know if my story is anything less than boring. 11 00:00:44,520 --> 00:00:49,090 Surely it's not, it's, it's just very interesting to kind of like 12 00:00:49,100 --> 00:00:52,010 take a look at your bio and, and learn a little bit about all the 13 00:00:52,020 --> 00:00:56,260 work you've done so far. Practicing New York and Toronto, 14 00:00:56,460 --> 00:01:01,070 leading research at Blue Jay and and also teaching at UFT and now 15 00:01:01,080 --> 00:01:03,630 as a, as a visiting professor, if I understand it right, at 16 00:01:03,640 --> 00:01:06,110 Yale Law School. Can you tell us a little bit 17 00:01:06,120 --> 00:01:07,550 about your journey? Sure. 18 00:01:07,560 --> 00:01:09,560 Yeah. So I grew up in Toronto, where 19 00:01:09,570 --> 00:01:12,850 you now live, I guess, and I attended the University of 20 00:01:12,860 --> 00:01:16,870 Toronto for undergraduate. And, you know, going to 21 00:01:16,980 --> 00:01:21,550 university in the city you grew up in, sometimes you want a 22 00:01:21,560 --> 00:01:23,450 change of perspective, a change of pace. 23 00:01:23,460 --> 00:01:26,670 And so I actually went to law school in the United States and 24 00:01:26,820 --> 00:01:29,750 beginning in 2013 and I graduated from Yale Law School 25 00:01:29,760 --> 00:01:33,330 in 2016. From there I practiced law for a 26 00:01:33,340 --> 00:01:35,800 couple of years at a firm called Covington and Burling. 27 00:01:35,890 --> 00:01:39,020 It's really a DC, Washington, DC based law firm, but I was 28 00:01:39,030 --> 00:01:40,750 working primarily in New York for them. 29 00:01:40,760 --> 00:01:43,040 They have offices all over the world and I was working on 30 00:01:43,490 --> 00:01:47,180 litigation, arbitration, all manner of dispute resolution, 31 00:01:47,650 --> 00:01:49,820 mostly corporate, commercial types of disputes. 32 00:01:49,830 --> 00:01:52,780 I left then actually for personal reasons, my mother 33 00:01:52,790 --> 00:01:56,040 became ill and so I moved back to Toronto and I worked very 34 00:01:56,050 --> 00:01:57,860 briefly. I described it as having a very 35 00:01:57,870 --> 00:02:01,640 brief cup of coffee at a firm called Davies in Toronto, fairly 36 00:02:01,650 --> 00:02:05,490 well known firm that is predominantly corporate and 37 00:02:05,500 --> 00:02:08,180 transactional. But I worked in their very small 38 00:02:08,190 --> 00:02:10,870 and actually highly impressive litigation department. 39 00:02:10,880 --> 00:02:13,020 I mean, they were among some of the best lawyers that I 40 00:02:13,030 --> 00:02:17,020 encountered in my career. From there, I left and tried 41 00:02:17,030 --> 00:02:20,540 something very new, something entirely from left field, which 42 00:02:20,550 --> 00:02:23,230 was joining us legal technology company. 43 00:02:24,120 --> 00:02:29,010 Actually, I knew the founder and CEO Ben Allery earlier from many 44 00:02:29,020 --> 00:02:31,950 years before that when I was an applicant to UC law school and 45 00:02:31,960 --> 00:02:34,410 we met and he told me a little bit about this, this 46 00:02:34,480 --> 00:02:36,910 opportunity. And so I joined Blue Jay. 47 00:02:36,920 --> 00:02:39,010 And at the time, what Blue Jay was doing was using machine 48 00:02:39,020 --> 00:02:42,170 learning to try to actually predict case outcomes and was 49 00:02:42,180 --> 00:02:47,300 doing so successfully manner that was letting itself to use 50 00:02:47,310 --> 00:02:48,860 by lawyers, accountants, etcetera. 51 00:02:48,870 --> 00:02:53,260 So I joined to lead the legal research team at the time, which 52 00:02:53,270 --> 00:02:56,000 was a team of about four people, a lawyer and a couple of 53 00:02:56,010 --> 00:02:58,300 research analysts. And by the time I left some 54 00:02:58,310 --> 00:03:00,000 years later, it was a large team. 55 00:03:00,010 --> 00:03:01,230 It was the biggest team in the company. 56 00:03:01,240 --> 00:03:05,190 We had about 30 staff, including many lawyers, many research 57 00:03:05,200 --> 00:03:06,900 analysts. And that was a wonderful 58 00:03:06,910 --> 00:03:08,370 experience. Now, throughout that entire 59 00:03:08,380 --> 00:03:11,420 time, I was teaching part time at UFT. 60 00:03:11,630 --> 00:03:14,460 I was teaching legal research and writing, and then later a 61 00:03:14,470 --> 00:03:17,100 large lecture and Civil Procedure and a small course in 62 00:03:17,110 --> 00:03:20,440 arbitration. Around 2022, I joined the UFT 63 00:03:20,450 --> 00:03:24,160 faculty full time as a tenure track professor. 64 00:03:24,170 --> 00:03:28,240 And that's where you had, you know, we, I teach torts, among 65 00:03:28,250 --> 00:03:32,420 other subjects, Civil Procedure, arbitration, and I'm also 66 00:03:32,430 --> 00:03:35,230 teaching a course on privacy and data governance in the Graduate 67 00:03:35,240 --> 00:03:38,420 School. So it's been a very lucky and 68 00:03:38,430 --> 00:03:41,000 charmed career so far, and I take no credit for it. 69 00:03:41,060 --> 00:03:44,120 I will say, to the extent that I was involved at all, it was that 70 00:03:44,130 --> 00:03:47,700 I was open and curious for new opportunities and that that I 71 00:03:47,710 --> 00:03:50,730 think probably accounts for most of the the. 72 00:03:50,740 --> 00:03:55,390 Round that's amazing and and thinking about all of this rows 73 00:03:55,400 --> 00:03:58,690 that you've had especially related to technology and 74 00:03:58,820 --> 00:04:03,010 including the altering of a book on the legal singularity as well 75 00:04:03,020 --> 00:04:05,490 right I'd love to hear a little bit about you know thinking back 76 00:04:05,500 --> 00:04:10,090 on your time as a JD student and then having all of this 77 00:04:10,140 --> 00:04:13,670 incredible experiences what are some of the things that you felt 78 00:04:13,680 --> 00:04:16,550 that really shaped your perspective about what the 79 00:04:16,560 --> 00:04:18,680 future of the legal professional looks like and. 80 00:04:18,690 --> 00:04:21,050 That's a great question. So I will say this. 81 00:04:21,260 --> 00:04:24,470 I couldn't have imagined the possibility of working as the 82 00:04:24,480 --> 00:04:27,380 vice president of a legal technology company or teaching 83 00:04:27,390 --> 00:04:30,450 courses in law and AI, for example, while I was at JD 84 00:04:30,460 --> 00:04:33,010 student, right? In part because what you might 85 00:04:33,020 --> 00:04:37,510 call the proliferation of AI and in law really didn't begin at 86 00:04:37,520 --> 00:04:39,610 that stage. Even though I was in law school 87 00:04:39,620 --> 00:04:42,030 relatively recently, it didn't begin at that age. 88 00:04:42,040 --> 00:04:45,900 And so the idea of imagining a career in that space was a 89 00:04:45,910 --> 00:04:48,160 bridge too far for me. So I don't want to give myself 90 00:04:48,230 --> 00:04:50,840 too much credit. I wasn't, I didn't have that 91 00:04:50,850 --> 00:04:54,140 kind of foresight. Instead, I was someone who I 92 00:04:54,150 --> 00:04:59,640 think had very deep criticisms of the way that we do law and, 93 00:04:59,790 --> 00:05:01,670 and in the United States in particular. 94 00:05:01,750 --> 00:05:04,880 What do I mean by that? Well, think about the, let's 95 00:05:04,890 --> 00:05:07,060 call it the market misallocation, right? 96 00:05:07,130 --> 00:05:11,220 You have a high number of people that have unmet legal needs, 97 00:05:11,770 --> 00:05:13,430 right? So you have people who cannot 98 00:05:13,440 --> 00:05:16,230 afford a lawyer. And this is not just the problem 99 00:05:16,240 --> 00:05:18,380 that the poor suffer from, right? 100 00:05:18,470 --> 00:05:20,840 The poor have no hope of affording a lawyer. 101 00:05:20,930 --> 00:05:23,200 And maybe there's occasional government services that can 102 00:05:23,210 --> 00:05:25,750 assist them and voucher programs, depending on the 103 00:05:25,760 --> 00:05:28,740 jurisdiction they're in to help them get a, you know, legal aid, 104 00:05:28,820 --> 00:05:32,730 whatever, whatever it may be. But if you're a poor person, not 105 00:05:32,740 --> 00:05:37,090 only do you not have any hope of obtaining a paid lawyer, so to 106 00:05:37,100 --> 00:05:39,590 speak, but you probably have a limited choices. 107 00:05:39,660 --> 00:05:43,690 But lawyers are increasingly critical for navigating our 108 00:05:43,700 --> 00:05:45,850 institutions in our society. You know, it used to be the case 109 00:05:45,860 --> 00:05:48,670 that you maybe only needed a lawyer when you have a major 110 00:05:48,680 --> 00:05:51,410 dispute in your life, right? Or when you're charged 111 00:05:51,420 --> 00:05:54,040 criminally. Well, nowadays you might need 112 00:05:54,050 --> 00:05:57,710 lawyers to communicate with tax officials, you need lawyers to 113 00:05:57,720 --> 00:06:00,290 deal with landlord tenant issues. 114 00:06:00,440 --> 00:06:03,290 You increasingly need lawyers to do things like a state planning. 115 00:06:03,380 --> 00:06:06,640 If your, God forbid, you're in a situation where the custody of 116 00:06:06,650 --> 00:06:09,030 your children is at stake, then those that's not the kind of 117 00:06:09,040 --> 00:06:10,750 situation where you want to go at it alone. 118 00:06:10,820 --> 00:06:14,390 And those are still the big high stakes one, but there's so many 119 00:06:14,400 --> 00:06:17,130 garden variety social activities now that increasingly require a 120 00:06:17,140 --> 00:06:18,890 lawyer. For instance, people are using 121 00:06:18,900 --> 00:06:21,750 lawyers right now to reclassify their children into special 122 00:06:21,760 --> 00:06:24,390 education streams and schools because when they want their 123 00:06:24,400 --> 00:06:28,630 children to get extra assistance at school and get individualized 124 00:06:28,640 --> 00:06:31,610 education planning, they have to navigate a complicated 125 00:06:31,620 --> 00:06:35,200 procedural process, right? And so lawyers are critical now, 126 00:06:35,260 --> 00:06:37,950 the poor, the poor don't stand a chance, right? 127 00:06:38,820 --> 00:06:42,770 Then that can't be a just or equitable or ethical system 128 00:06:42,780 --> 00:06:45,200 right? Now, I started by saying it's 129 00:06:45,210 --> 00:06:48,310 not just a problem with the poor if you're a middle class, even 130 00:06:48,320 --> 00:06:50,790 if you're at the sort of a bottom end of what we might call 131 00:06:50,800 --> 00:06:54,170 the upper middle class, the cost and the expense associated with 132 00:06:54,180 --> 00:06:59,220 a lawyer can get so egregious, can get so egregious that it 133 00:06:59,230 --> 00:07:01,880 could bankrupt you. Certainly you're going to make 134 00:07:01,890 --> 00:07:03,850 choices that you you wouldn't otherwise make. 135 00:07:03,860 --> 00:07:05,780 It wasn't for the the that expense. 136 00:07:05,850 --> 00:07:08,190 And for me, there's just something that I can't wrap my 137 00:07:08,200 --> 00:07:12,070 head around, which is if law is critical as a guarantor of 138 00:07:12,080 --> 00:07:15,370 social rights, if it's important for us in terms of effectuating 139 00:07:15,380 --> 00:07:18,840 our interest in society, then why is it that it demands these, 140 00:07:19,540 --> 00:07:21,590 you know, very expensive intermediaries? 141 00:07:21,680 --> 00:07:23,930 And why are those intermediaries still expensive? 142 00:07:23,940 --> 00:07:27,910 So I was very curious for a long time about exactly what, what 143 00:07:27,920 --> 00:07:30,490 justifies the high expense associated with lawyers. 144 00:07:30,500 --> 00:07:33,510 And if you actually do some digging, right, you see that, 145 00:07:33,760 --> 00:07:38,340 well, part of what accounts for why lawyers cost so much is that 146 00:07:38,430 --> 00:07:41,160 lawyers offer specialized skills, right? 147 00:07:41,170 --> 00:07:44,320 They offer specialized skills that the market prices at X. 148 00:07:44,370 --> 00:07:49,160 Well, is it possible that given that these skills are helping 149 00:07:49,250 --> 00:07:52,000 people to navigate public institutions, to obtain 150 00:07:52,010 --> 00:07:54,690 benefits, to resolve issues in their life, is it possible that 151 00:07:54,700 --> 00:07:58,000 we can replicate some of those skills in a cost effective 152 00:07:58,010 --> 00:07:59,430 manner? And so I became very curious 153 00:07:59,440 --> 00:08:00,820 about the role technology could play. 154 00:08:00,860 --> 00:08:02,720 I just put a very fine, fine point on this. 155 00:08:02,790 --> 00:08:05,640 In my years as a lawyer, from when I started until today, you 156 00:08:05,650 --> 00:08:09,040 know, I'm still a lawyer, right? I was never able to afford 157 00:08:09,050 --> 00:08:11,400 myself. I currently could not, could not 158 00:08:11,410 --> 00:08:15,380 afford to pay myself the hourly rate that I would commend on the 159 00:08:15,390 --> 00:08:17,640 private marketplace. Something about that is 160 00:08:17,970 --> 00:08:22,460 concerning, right? So one question is, can we use 161 00:08:22,470 --> 00:08:25,260 technology to bring down some of those costs? 162 00:08:25,270 --> 00:08:26,660 So there's a couple ways you can do that. 163 00:08:26,710 --> 00:08:29,830 One way to do that is we can use technology to bring down the 164 00:08:29,840 --> 00:08:31,580 cost by making lures more efficient. 165 00:08:31,650 --> 00:08:34,429 If lawyers are more efficient, maybe they'll be able to pass on 166 00:08:34,440 --> 00:08:36,039 some of the cost savings to their clients. 167 00:08:36,049 --> 00:08:39,260 Or they'll be able to change the model from what you might call 168 00:08:39,270 --> 00:08:43,200 them a margin model where a lawyer makes money on a given 169 00:08:43,470 --> 00:08:46,840 case or matter they work on to a more volume model where what 170 00:08:46,850 --> 00:08:49,200 matters is that they have they're able to service a lot of 171 00:08:49,270 --> 00:08:51,310 clients and maybe they can bring the cost that way. 172 00:08:51,450 --> 00:08:53,210 That's one way. Or the other way is what you 173 00:08:53,220 --> 00:08:55,860 might call retail applications, allowing people to access 174 00:08:55,870 --> 00:08:58,580 technology directly to engage in some self help. 175 00:08:58,670 --> 00:09:01,020 So I became very curious about this actually really early. 176 00:09:01,230 --> 00:09:04,280 So I didn't quite know that I was going to be the midwife for 177 00:09:04,290 --> 00:09:07,090 these kinds of things, but I was thinking about it fairly early 178 00:09:07,100 --> 00:09:09,610 when I was seeing things like LegalZoom, you know, on occasion 179 00:09:09,620 --> 00:09:12,870 I would need to deal with my own situations and figure out ways 180 00:09:12,880 --> 00:09:15,470 to to, you know, self remedy, so to speak. 181 00:09:15,920 --> 00:09:18,540 And so that was the beginning and end of my curiosity with 182 00:09:18,550 --> 00:09:20,530 technology. And this is an important thing 183 00:09:20,600 --> 00:09:23,060 that I want to say. I'm not one of those people 184 00:09:23,070 --> 00:09:25,330 who's interested in technology because I like gadgets. 185 00:09:25,340 --> 00:09:29,390 You know, there's some people who are interested in AI because 186 00:09:29,440 --> 00:09:32,110 they aren't set in all technology. 187 00:09:32,120 --> 00:09:35,040 They're in the blockchain too, and they are interested in the 188 00:09:35,050 --> 00:09:37,590 latest release from Apple or Samsung, right? 189 00:09:37,600 --> 00:09:40,650 That's actually not me, right? I'm just a lawyer who's 190 00:09:40,660 --> 00:09:43,830 convinced that these things can be useful in limited context, 191 00:09:43,840 --> 00:09:46,330 especially for this access to justice problem that I'm talking 192 00:09:46,340 --> 00:09:49,850 about. And so I had a, let's call it a 193 00:09:49,860 --> 00:09:52,610 diagnosis when I was in law school about some of this. 194 00:09:52,620 --> 00:09:54,050 It doesn't seem to be working, right? 195 00:09:54,060 --> 00:09:57,220 But I didn't have the prescription until some years 196 00:09:57,230 --> 00:10:01,340 later when we started to see a I was showing us that we had some 197 00:10:01,350 --> 00:10:03,800 capability of reducing those. Costs, well, that's so 198 00:10:03,810 --> 00:10:06,580 incredible. It's it, it really sounds like 199 00:10:07,110 --> 00:10:11,720 you've had lots of moments where like the, the reality of what's 200 00:10:11,730 --> 00:10:14,500 going on in the day-to-day practice and then noticing 201 00:10:14,510 --> 00:10:16,620 what's actually needed. There was a lot of like, we need 202 00:10:16,630 --> 00:10:20,260 to do a lot differently. You know really this gap that 203 00:10:20,270 --> 00:10:23,240 you've noticed, I guessing so many, many areas, right? 204 00:10:23,350 --> 00:10:24,940 Yeah, well, let me say this, too. 205 00:10:24,990 --> 00:10:27,940 In law, we haven't done anything that any other profession or 206 00:10:27,950 --> 00:10:29,700 industry would recognize as innovation. 207 00:10:29,770 --> 00:10:31,820 So think about it this way. Let's just do a little thought 208 00:10:31,830 --> 00:10:34,440 experiment. Imagine a courtroom 100 years 209 00:10:34,450 --> 00:10:36,070 ago. It would be exactly the same as 210 00:10:36,080 --> 00:10:39,240 it looks today, except maybe today there'd be some screens 211 00:10:39,250 --> 00:10:41,670 for evidence presentation and some laptops on the council's 212 00:10:41,680 --> 00:10:42,340 table. Right. 213 00:10:42,450 --> 00:10:45,040 A law school classroom 100 years ago looked exact same as it does 214 00:10:45,050 --> 00:10:46,820 now. The class that you and I met in, 215 00:10:46,890 --> 00:10:50,240 for example, would have been structured the exact same way. 216 00:10:50,310 --> 00:10:53,060 And I, as a professor would have been standing up there largely 217 00:10:53,070 --> 00:10:57,610 saying the same things, right. And so there's an open question 218 00:10:57,620 --> 00:11:01,250 about that, which is, is it continuing to stay the way that 219 00:11:01,260 --> 00:11:05,810 it is because we have a bedrock belief that it's good enough or 220 00:11:05,820 --> 00:11:08,170 that staying the way that it is because we're not critically 221 00:11:08,180 --> 00:11:11,290 thinking about ways to make it better and new things that we 222 00:11:11,300 --> 00:11:14,910 can do. And so that's part of the the 223 00:11:14,920 --> 00:11:18,550 constant struggle of thinking about the improvement in the law 224 00:11:18,560 --> 00:11:21,030 is why are we doing it the way that we're doing? 225 00:11:21,040 --> 00:11:24,600 And you know, I have a hypothesis, which is that we've 226 00:11:24,610 --> 00:11:27,700 created a situation right now where actually hard to imagine 227 00:11:27,710 --> 00:11:30,810 other possibilities because law has what you might call a 228 00:11:31,200 --> 00:11:34,230 totalizing power, right? This is just to make it nerdy. 229 00:11:34,240 --> 00:11:36,090 If you have, if you have read Claudio, you've read them, 230 00:11:36,100 --> 00:11:37,930 you're gonna Habermas or something like that. 231 00:11:37,940 --> 00:11:41,390 You talks about the law colonizing the life world, 232 00:11:41,400 --> 00:11:43,500 right? The idea being that once law is 233 00:11:43,510 --> 00:11:46,800 introduced, everything becomes law like, right? 234 00:11:46,810 --> 00:11:48,480 Think about like a code of conduct at work. 235 00:11:48,490 --> 00:11:50,880 Once Upon a time, people would articulate a standard of 236 00:11:50,890 --> 00:11:53,040 behavior for you in the workplace and say, you know, 237 00:11:53,050 --> 00:11:56,020 Claudia, you better work hard and show up and do your best and 238 00:11:56,090 --> 00:11:58,580 do right by customers and be good to your colleagues, right? 239 00:11:58,590 --> 00:12:00,740 And there's ways that we can reinforce that behavior 240 00:12:00,830 --> 00:12:03,780 socially, communally, almost even like a family. 241 00:12:03,790 --> 00:12:07,060 Right now. It's the hypersexualized code of 242 00:12:07,070 --> 00:12:08,540 conduct, which reads like a statue. 243 00:12:08,630 --> 00:12:10,740 And there's an enforcement mechanism that attaches to the 244 00:12:10,750 --> 00:12:12,500 code of conduct. And there might be a grievance 245 00:12:12,510 --> 00:12:15,170 process and there might be appeal after that. 246 00:12:15,250 --> 00:12:17,940 And somewhere in the background is an Employment Standards Act 247 00:12:18,010 --> 00:12:21,820 that governs all of it, right? And so, so much of our life, you 248 00:12:21,830 --> 00:12:24,840 know, laws suffusing more and more of our modern institutions. 249 00:12:24,930 --> 00:12:27,520 And so now it's critically necessary to evaluate whether or 250 00:12:27,530 --> 00:12:30,530 not it's it's, we're doing things the right way, I think. 251 00:12:30,600 --> 00:12:33,310 And technology gives us that quote, UN quote crisis moment. 252 00:12:33,560 --> 00:12:35,930 Right, that's amazing. That's such a dive into in a 253 00:12:35,940 --> 00:12:38,050 little bit of the the history of it as well. 254 00:12:38,280 --> 00:12:40,830 But there is something that I think it's very interesting. 255 00:12:40,840 --> 00:12:44,690 So I actually got to read the legal singularity when it came 256 00:12:44,700 --> 00:12:45,730 out. I got you. 257 00:12:45,790 --> 00:12:49,770 I was here in Toronto. I got to see the AI tax man 258 00:12:49,780 --> 00:12:54,290 documentary followed a little bit of the events preceding it. 259 00:12:54,300 --> 00:12:57,110 And what I find interesting is that you mentioned a few things 260 00:12:57,120 --> 00:13:00,850 that did not change largely, but then there is the book itself 261 00:13:00,860 --> 00:13:02,630 brings a lot of things that did change. 262 00:13:02,680 --> 00:13:06,720 And it's especially how we classify information, how, you 263 00:13:06,730 --> 00:13:10,510 know, the law gets put together, how libraries look like back in 264 00:13:10,520 --> 00:13:13,310 the day, how much information you can have in a in a small 265 00:13:13,320 --> 00:13:15,950 spot now. But I guess the main thing 266 00:13:15,960 --> 00:13:18,740 itself, it's the same, which is the content. 267 00:13:18,750 --> 00:13:21,660 It just changed a lot of like how we deal with it, where we 268 00:13:21,670 --> 00:13:24,020 store it and and how we go about it, right? 269 00:13:24,090 --> 00:13:27,200 Yeah, so in the book we talk about these three eras of legal 270 00:13:27,210 --> 00:13:29,040 information, right, The analog era. 271 00:13:29,130 --> 00:13:31,940 The analog era is exactly what you know it to be. 272 00:13:32,010 --> 00:13:35,980 It's, you know, books, physical media and all of laws contained 273 00:13:35,990 --> 00:13:38,910 in those things, right? And, you know, at the University 274 00:13:38,920 --> 00:13:41,860 of Toronto, as recently as, I don't know, 20 years ago, we 275 00:13:41,870 --> 00:13:44,220 were training students to conduct their research 276 00:13:44,230 --> 00:13:47,020 principally by navigating the stacks of the libraries, right? 277 00:13:47,370 --> 00:13:50,640 And what's interesting about that is that it has significant 278 00:13:50,650 --> 00:13:54,060 equity implications, right? Because if law, if what exists, 279 00:13:54,250 --> 00:13:57,080 if what we know to be the law exists in physical media, then 280 00:13:57,090 --> 00:13:59,680 who has access to physical media makes a difference for the 281 00:13:59,690 --> 00:14:01,100 quality of the legal advice they can give. 282 00:14:01,110 --> 00:14:03,900 You know, there's a biography of Abraham Lincoln who said that 283 00:14:04,010 --> 00:14:07,310 Abraham Lincoln's legal practice was limited by how many law, how 284 00:14:07,320 --> 00:14:09,850 many books you could carry on his horse, right? 285 00:14:09,900 --> 00:14:11,380 Which is true. It's interesting. 286 00:14:11,390 --> 00:14:13,150 I mean, it's kind of a cartoonish way of making a 287 00:14:13,160 --> 00:14:16,270 profound point, which is that so long as it exists in the 288 00:14:16,280 --> 00:14:19,410 physical media that it's not so portable, then actually the 289 00:14:19,420 --> 00:14:22,650 quality, the entire universe of legal information is limited to 290 00:14:22,660 --> 00:14:23,990 that which you can touch and see. 291 00:14:24,000 --> 00:14:26,850 And of course, you know, same thing as today. 292 00:14:26,860 --> 00:14:29,130 You know, the well paid corporate law firm is going to 293 00:14:29,140 --> 00:14:31,520 have a better access to the information than the county 294 00:14:31,530 --> 00:14:34,050 lawyer or the local lawyer or the public interest lawyer or 295 00:14:34,060 --> 00:14:35,230 even the government lawyer, right. 296 00:14:35,280 --> 00:14:39,520 So, but beginning around the 1970s, you have this transition 297 00:14:39,530 --> 00:14:43,090 out of analog into digital, you know, the rise of the computer 298 00:14:43,100 --> 00:14:46,520 terminal, but also companies like, you know, W now Thompson, 299 00:14:46,530 --> 00:14:49,470 Reuters or Mead, who created LexisNexis, right? 300 00:14:49,480 --> 00:14:52,400 You get cool projects that come out of universities initially, 301 00:14:52,410 --> 00:14:54,950 like the Queens University information computing project, I 302 00:14:54,960 --> 00:14:58,220 think it's called Q UIC, now known as quick law, for 303 00:14:58,230 --> 00:15:01,600 instance, right? You, you start to see law become 304 00:15:01,610 --> 00:15:04,210 available and retrievable. These digital databases, part of 305 00:15:04,220 --> 00:15:06,940 what we argue in the, you know, you use them today can lead 306 00:15:07,030 --> 00:15:09,360 Lexus, Westlaw, Bloomberg, whatever they may be, right? 307 00:15:09,450 --> 00:15:12,360 Part of what we explained in the book is that that shift from 308 00:15:12,370 --> 00:15:15,460 analog to digital, even though it's a it's a shift from one era 309 00:15:15,470 --> 00:15:17,510 to another, It's not that profound shit. 310 00:15:17,520 --> 00:15:20,130 It's not the quantum leap, people say, because all it 311 00:15:20,140 --> 00:15:22,650 really happened is the information that exists in the 312 00:15:22,660 --> 00:15:25,610 analog area became platform digitally, but it was the same 313 00:15:25,620 --> 00:15:29,420 stuff we made the books and whatever cases statutes 314 00:15:29,430 --> 00:15:32,460 available digitally, right? Today we're in what you might 315 00:15:32,470 --> 00:15:36,010 call the computational error, where we say, let's take all the 316 00:15:36,020 --> 00:15:39,330 information that was generated in the analog era platform to 317 00:15:39,340 --> 00:15:41,610 the digital era, and let's treat it as data. 318 00:15:42,060 --> 00:15:45,090 And now let's perform functions on top of it, right? 319 00:15:45,160 --> 00:15:48,290 Let's train algorithms to retrieve to identify patterns in 320 00:15:48,300 --> 00:15:51,090 the information. Let's use now large language 321 00:15:51,100 --> 00:15:54,260 models to generate yet new information from what it's 322 00:15:54,270 --> 00:15:57,550 learned, for instance, in about the the semantics, the syntax 323 00:15:57,560 --> 00:15:59,770 addiction, the structure of that information. 324 00:15:59,820 --> 00:16:02,950 Let's do statistical analysis. Let's use advanced data science 325 00:16:02,960 --> 00:16:06,240 techniques to create new information, right? 326 00:16:06,300 --> 00:16:07,710 And so that's kind of where we are. 327 00:16:07,720 --> 00:16:09,810 That's fascinating. I love you mentioned the book 328 00:16:09,820 --> 00:16:13,280 and we're proud of the book, but we submitted the manuscript, I 329 00:16:13,290 --> 00:16:17,330 think like November 2022 and what happened that month, you 330 00:16:17,340 --> 00:16:18,940 know, change GBT hit the marketplace. 331 00:16:18,950 --> 00:16:21,310 Now we're observers. So we, we knew about large 332 00:16:21,320 --> 00:16:24,080 language models, generative AI, we anticipated that these things 333 00:16:24,090 --> 00:16:27,140 were happening. But it just tells you about sort 334 00:16:27,150 --> 00:16:30,270 of the rate of innovation here. Or when, when we first started 335 00:16:30,280 --> 00:16:35,780 seeing AI image generation tools in 2022-2023, you know, they 336 00:16:35,790 --> 00:16:37,610 were putting noses on people's foreheads. 337 00:16:38,060 --> 00:16:41,500 Today they could, they could trick you, you could, you could 338 00:16:41,510 --> 00:16:46,760 think an AI generated image is a real person, right? 339 00:16:46,870 --> 00:16:49,970 And so we've come that far and there are certain ways in which 340 00:16:49,980 --> 00:16:51,160 we're going to continue to improve. 341 00:16:51,170 --> 00:16:53,710 But I think we know enough now to figure out that we need to 342 00:16:53,720 --> 00:16:56,580 make some rules and figure out ways to absorb it culturally and 343 00:16:56,590 --> 00:16:59,060 socially and become better educated about it. 344 00:16:59,070 --> 00:17:00,560 All amazing. Thank you so much for your 345 00:17:00,570 --> 00:17:02,160 comments. Really appreciated that. 346 00:17:02,220 --> 00:17:04,800 And something that I that I wanted to ask you a little more 347 00:17:04,810 --> 00:17:08,200 about got you listened to a few of the different interviews 348 00:17:08,210 --> 00:17:10,930 you've given over the years. And something that you mentioned 349 00:17:10,940 --> 00:17:12,720 that I thought was just so interesting. 350 00:17:12,730 --> 00:17:15,700 Is that an observation or maybe a personal feeling that you have 351 00:17:15,710 --> 00:17:19,980 is really that AI will allow us to have more time to do a more 352 00:17:19,990 --> 00:17:22,849 creative lawyering. So I think some of the arguments 353 00:17:22,859 --> 00:17:25,319 you put out there was, you know, there's a lot of a lot of the, 354 00:17:25,329 --> 00:17:28,970 the work that we do, the manual work, so to say, ends up, you 355 00:17:28,980 --> 00:17:31,890 know, taking a lot of time. And then we, we don't go to law 356 00:17:31,900 --> 00:17:35,010 school thinking about, you know, writing a factum or, or doing 357 00:17:35,020 --> 00:17:36,570 these things. Might we might think about 358 00:17:36,580 --> 00:17:39,190 writing a fact to them, but we what we don't want to do is 359 00:17:39,200 --> 00:17:42,030 spend hours and hours in the Westlaw universe, right? 360 00:17:42,040 --> 00:17:45,410 Trying to find the one case that stands for the one proposition 361 00:17:45,480 --> 00:17:48,120 that the partner, whoever you're working for told you exist, but 362 00:17:48,130 --> 00:17:49,990 you're now suspecting doesn't exist. 363 00:17:50,000 --> 00:17:53,210 Right. Like these are the the drudgery 364 00:17:53,220 --> 00:17:56,220 involved in the legal practice are not things that we want to 365 00:17:56,230 --> 00:17:58,170 continue to do. Or if you want to continue to do 366 00:17:58,180 --> 00:18:00,350 them, you should feel free to do them, but at least with the 367 00:18:00,360 --> 00:18:03,090 understanding that there's more efficient uses of your time. 368 00:18:03,100 --> 00:18:05,890 And for me, this is a critical social imperative. 369 00:18:05,900 --> 00:18:09,020 It's not just about us having more fulfilling jobs of lives, 370 00:18:09,030 --> 00:18:10,550 though I think that could be a byproduct. 371 00:18:10,600 --> 00:18:13,810 I just think that we need to do things better, faster, more 372 00:18:13,820 --> 00:18:16,480 cheaply and more effectively, more accurately, because there 373 00:18:16,490 --> 00:18:18,840 are people that have unmet legal needs, right? 374 00:18:18,950 --> 00:18:21,180 Emphasis on the more cheaply, right? 375 00:18:21,290 --> 00:18:24,220 And technology allows us to get closer to that. 376 00:18:24,230 --> 00:18:26,540 Now it brings with it other problems too, right? 377 00:18:26,590 --> 00:18:28,940 I think the key thing in our book, the legal Singularity, 378 00:18:28,950 --> 00:18:33,300 which was an optimal, I should say optimistic, it was, it 379 00:18:33,310 --> 00:18:36,300 definitely advocated for the increases, increased use of AI 380 00:18:36,350 --> 00:18:39,140 in legal systems, right? But the subtitle of the book is 381 00:18:39,150 --> 00:18:41,580 very important. It says how artificial 382 00:18:41,590 --> 00:18:44,080 intelligence can make the law radically better. 383 00:18:44,090 --> 00:18:48,900 And the keyword is can because it's not automatic that it will. 384 00:18:49,350 --> 00:18:52,020 Why? Because there are still humans 385 00:18:52,030 --> 00:18:53,880 involved. We can still do things. 386 00:18:53,890 --> 00:18:56,080 We can impart our biases, we can discriminate. 387 00:18:56,170 --> 00:18:58,860 We can let this technology and I become a runaway train. 388 00:18:58,910 --> 00:19:00,660 We can fail to adequately regulate it. 389 00:19:00,750 --> 00:19:04,360 Or, and this goes back to your question, we can use it in ways 390 00:19:04,370 --> 00:19:09,580 that don't reduce costs, but but allow us to extract higher 391 00:19:09,590 --> 00:19:12,170 prices, right. So, for instance, you know, we 392 00:19:12,180 --> 00:19:14,290 live in capitalist systems. There's there's a there are 393 00:19:14,300 --> 00:19:16,320 winners and losers. There's also people that guard 394 00:19:16,330 --> 00:19:19,800 information to their advantage. If you're a large law firm and 395 00:19:19,810 --> 00:19:23,710 you've had a strong market position for a long time and you 396 00:19:23,720 --> 00:19:26,950 know that data is king in a world of AI, well, you're going 397 00:19:26,960 --> 00:19:31,030 to create your own internal white labeled AI tool that's 398 00:19:31,040 --> 00:19:33,100 going to be trained on your data because you have privileged 399 00:19:33,110 --> 00:19:35,570 information, You're going to have an advantage, especially in 400 00:19:35,580 --> 00:19:38,290 areas for which things like case law are not published, like in 401 00:19:38,300 --> 00:19:40,280 arbitrations, for example, They're firm. 402 00:19:40,290 --> 00:19:42,030 That's the leading arbitration firm. 403 00:19:42,470 --> 00:19:45,240 Why would you put cases back into the public repository if 404 00:19:45,250 --> 00:19:46,730 you've been on the other side of most of them? 405 00:19:46,780 --> 00:19:48,810 Why not just train your own internal AI and then suddenly 406 00:19:48,820 --> 00:19:50,450 have an information advantage, right? 407 00:19:50,500 --> 00:19:54,350 So I'm not, I'm not naive here in that I think it's 408 00:19:54,360 --> 00:19:57,010 automatically egalitarian. We still have to make choice. 409 00:19:57,020 --> 00:19:59,230 We have to legislate. We have to care about each other 410 00:19:59,620 --> 00:20:01,710 as a, as a critical bottom line, right? 411 00:20:01,840 --> 00:20:04,770 And so I think that's the sometimes, you know, I talk to 412 00:20:04,780 --> 00:20:08,600 people who are critics of the increases of AI because they are 413 00:20:08,610 --> 00:20:11,300 concerned about some of the potential for misuse. 414 00:20:11,310 --> 00:20:14,310 And I would say that's technology being layered on top. 415 00:20:14,450 --> 00:20:17,430 Existing problems that we have, and there's are ways in which it 416 00:20:17,440 --> 00:20:20,140 deepens and indeed amplifies those problems, right? 417 00:20:20,250 --> 00:20:22,820 Think about things like discrimination, right? 418 00:20:22,890 --> 00:20:26,660 If there's racial discrimination for a given immigration officer, 419 00:20:26,930 --> 00:20:31,630 right, but that immigration officers cases, case histories 420 00:20:31,640 --> 00:20:35,110 being used to train an algorithm that's going to then make 421 00:20:35,120 --> 00:20:37,430 immigration determinations, that's a problem. 422 00:20:37,480 --> 00:20:38,930 But it's not just that it's a problem. 423 00:20:38,980 --> 00:20:41,110 It's that suddenly the technology is more capable of 424 00:20:41,120 --> 00:20:44,110 discriminating at a higher clip and with considerably more 425 00:20:44,120 --> 00:20:46,050 volume than that immigration officer themselves were. 426 00:20:46,120 --> 00:20:48,950 So this amplification risk. So I'm not naive about this, but 427 00:20:48,960 --> 00:20:51,390 I will say, and this is the critical point here, we can't 428 00:20:51,400 --> 00:20:53,010 let technology take us off the hook either. 429 00:20:53,020 --> 00:20:55,870 I gave the example maybe in class sometime about imagine we 430 00:20:55,880 --> 00:20:59,250 had an AI tool that was setting our wages for the rest of our 431 00:20:59,260 --> 00:21:01,620 lives, right. So forget no more negotiating 432 00:21:01,630 --> 00:21:03,940 with your boss. He just you upload your resume 433 00:21:03,950 --> 00:21:06,770 to some tool and it sets your wages for the rest of your life, 434 00:21:06,820 --> 00:21:08,810 right. That would without any other 435 00:21:08,820 --> 00:21:11,610 interventions, it would project the gender wage gap into the 436 00:21:11,620 --> 00:21:12,240 future. Why? 437 00:21:12,250 --> 00:21:15,870 Because if it's based on all the historical data about wages, and 438 00:21:15,880 --> 00:21:18,320 it would find that women make $0.79 for every man's dollar, 439 00:21:18,330 --> 00:21:21,750 let's say, I don't know exact numbers, but let's say that now, 440 00:21:21,820 --> 00:21:24,890 if that, if that happened, we would, we'd be in the streets 441 00:21:24,900 --> 00:21:26,820 marching. We'd be like, you could not, you 442 00:21:26,830 --> 00:21:29,610 have to unplug this tech, right? Because if it, if it immediately 443 00:21:29,620 --> 00:21:32,350 spit out the this woman gets $0.79 and a man gets a dollar 444 00:21:32,360 --> 00:21:35,210 for the same qualifications, we would want to take a baseball 445 00:21:35,220 --> 00:21:38,590 bat to the computer. However, the gender wage gap 446 00:21:38,600 --> 00:21:41,810 persists socially. It's embedded in institutions. 447 00:21:41,860 --> 00:21:44,890 It's exist in a diffuse way. It's, it's, it's embedded in 448 00:21:44,900 --> 00:21:47,590 relationships. And there appears not to be the 449 00:21:47,600 --> 00:21:52,290 political will to completely, completely dismantle it, right? 450 00:21:52,360 --> 00:21:55,290 And so we can look at the AI and be like, Oh my God, we should 451 00:21:55,300 --> 00:21:57,180 never use it in that context. At the same time, we can't take 452 00:21:57,190 --> 00:21:59,410 ourselves off the hook for from not paying women more. 453 00:21:59,480 --> 00:22:02,410 And so there's a way in which technology is both a masking 454 00:22:02,420 --> 00:22:05,730 agent of some structural inequality, but it's also in 455 00:22:05,740 --> 00:22:11,350 some ways a good, it allows us to bring the issues into stark 456 00:22:11,360 --> 00:22:13,150 relief, just almost like an empirical tool. 457 00:22:13,160 --> 00:22:16,510 It's it's, it shines some light on some of the contradictions 458 00:22:16,520 --> 00:22:19,080 that we have in our society. So that's amazing. 459 00:22:19,090 --> 00:22:22,690 That's a, I really appreciate just you taking the time to have 460 00:22:22,700 --> 00:22:25,270 this conversation because it's been so many different 461 00:22:25,280 --> 00:22:27,030 interesting topics that you've brought up. 462 00:22:27,040 --> 00:22:29,960 And if, if I were to ask you then, you know, we, we, we 463 00:22:29,970 --> 00:22:33,960 talked about, I guess the practice of law, the information 464 00:22:33,970 --> 00:22:36,940 gathering, the social interactions that it had that, 465 00:22:36,950 --> 00:22:39,720 that, that it goes along with. And I know that some of the 466 00:22:39,730 --> 00:22:42,650 courses you teach are, are very much related to, to law and 467 00:22:42,660 --> 00:22:45,200 international artificial intelligence. 468 00:22:45,250 --> 00:22:48,540 So you know, when your students will come up and say things 469 00:22:48,550 --> 00:22:51,660 like, I want to work with the law and AI, what do you tell 470 00:22:51,670 --> 00:22:55,280 them in, in, in that prospect, If I may add to that question, 471 00:22:55,290 --> 00:22:58,020 I've been, I spoke with quite a few people that work with 472 00:22:58,030 --> 00:23:01,000 privacy law. And it's been more and more 473 00:23:01,010 --> 00:23:04,540 popular since the European Union's regulation of, of 474 00:23:04,630 --> 00:23:07,740 privacy and all of that. But before that, we didn't 475 00:23:07,750 --> 00:23:11,100 really have privacy lawyers, or at least they weren't called 476 00:23:11,110 --> 00:23:13,020 privacy lawyers. They were just lawyers that also 477 00:23:13,030 --> 00:23:15,110 did a little bit of privacy and this and that. 478 00:23:15,210 --> 00:23:17,480 And it just kind of like booms, right. 479 00:23:17,490 --> 00:23:20,160 As far as careers, will, you know, a way that you know, 480 00:23:20,170 --> 00:23:23,780 people were able to from my experience in these chats that I 481 00:23:23,790 --> 00:23:27,680 had, people who were new calls were able to take positions that 482 00:23:27,690 --> 00:23:31,100 beforehand in a previous market, you'd have to be a lawyer who 483 00:23:31,110 --> 00:23:33,640 is, you know, working 10 years out in the market. 484 00:23:33,870 --> 00:23:37,340 But because they're they're just wasn't a 10 year privacy lawyer, 485 00:23:37,350 --> 00:23:40,640 then younger attorneys were able to to get those positions. 486 00:23:40,800 --> 00:23:42,840 So. Is there some kind of 487 00:23:42,850 --> 00:23:44,670 opportunity like that with AI that? 488 00:23:45,230 --> 00:23:47,510 OK, so here's the thing. I actually think that there's a 489 00:23:47,520 --> 00:23:49,660 really good time to become a lawyer, right? 490 00:23:49,670 --> 00:23:51,820 In part because of what we talked about earlier, which is 491 00:23:51,910 --> 00:23:54,220 more and more of the grunt work is being automated. 492 00:23:54,230 --> 00:23:56,360 And so this frees up some time to do interesting creative 493 00:23:56,370 --> 00:23:58,420 things. And let's be serious, we came to 494 00:23:58,430 --> 00:24:00,580 law school because we wanted to do going to problem solve, be 495 00:24:00,590 --> 00:24:02,680 creative. We wanted to have a rhetorical 496 00:24:02,690 --> 00:24:05,580 flourish in the courtroom where we wanted to deliver justice. 497 00:24:05,590 --> 00:24:08,360 We wanted to help people, right, change the world, so to speak, 498 00:24:08,370 --> 00:24:10,970 right. So, you know, I, I think more of 499 00:24:10,980 --> 00:24:14,630 your dynamism will be on demand in your profession, which is 500 00:24:14,640 --> 00:24:16,950 really nice. The other piece of it is there's 501 00:24:16,960 --> 00:24:19,140 all these new things now. There's all these things that we 502 00:24:19,150 --> 00:24:20,990 couldn't exactly imagine. Same way I told you when I was 503 00:24:21,000 --> 00:24:23,200 in law school, I couldn't imagine being the VA legal 504 00:24:23,210 --> 00:24:25,410 technology company. Claudio, the job that you have 505 00:24:25,420 --> 00:24:27,850 in 6-7 years might not be one that's invented yet. 506 00:24:27,860 --> 00:24:30,420 You know, you might be a leading technology lawyer, but the 507 00:24:30,430 --> 00:24:32,940 technology that you're dealing with might be some newfangled 508 00:24:32,950 --> 00:24:34,720 thing that we can't currently contemplate. 509 00:24:34,790 --> 00:24:37,040 And so it's exciting just to wait and see in that way. 510 00:24:37,090 --> 00:24:40,970 But separate from that, just the technology that exists today is 511 00:24:40,980 --> 00:24:43,690 putting major strains on our legal system, right? 512 00:24:44,060 --> 00:24:47,110 What is what is what does intellectual property right now? 513 00:24:47,870 --> 00:24:51,040 What does privacy at the moment? What does torts if every 514 00:24:51,050 --> 00:24:54,700 autonomous, you know, every Tesla you see on the road that 515 00:24:54,710 --> 00:24:57,900 has full self driving is a challenge to our traditional 516 00:24:57,910 --> 00:25:01,360 negligence regimes, right. And so there's just going to be, 517 00:25:01,420 --> 00:25:04,600 you know, sad to say, a lot of legal issues generated in the 518 00:25:04,610 --> 00:25:08,140 short term because of these technology that that actually 519 00:25:08,150 --> 00:25:10,760 create, you know, to the extent they have a positive byproduct 520 00:25:10,850 --> 00:25:13,460 to create cool opportunities for you and me to to think about 521 00:25:13,570 --> 00:25:17,030 ways that we can use our skills. That combined with the fact that 522 00:25:17,040 --> 00:25:19,480 you can use the technology actually in your practice to be 523 00:25:19,490 --> 00:25:22,080 more effective and more efficient means that you can get 524 00:25:22,090 --> 00:25:24,900 good faster. And because, you know, you're 525 00:25:24,910 --> 00:25:27,000 entering A profession where people have, you know, we 526 00:25:27,010 --> 00:25:29,500 talked, we started this by saying nothing has ever changed 527 00:25:29,750 --> 00:25:31,720 your profession. That's pretty conservative and 528 00:25:31,850 --> 00:25:35,610 in some ways baked into it. It's mold and is unchanging 529 00:25:35,670 --> 00:25:38,270 unless it's forced to change. You can hit the ground running 530 00:25:38,280 --> 00:25:41,550 and have a bit of an advantage by having some technological, 531 00:25:41,560 --> 00:25:44,500 technological fluency, being able to leverage the technology 532 00:25:44,510 --> 00:25:46,950 in ways that are responsible, but also being abreast of the 533 00:25:46,960 --> 00:25:49,460 issues that it generates, Right. So I think there's great 534 00:25:49,470 --> 00:25:51,950 opportunity there. You know, there's going to be 535 00:25:51,960 --> 00:25:55,570 massive legal changes in Canada. You know, Bill C27, which was 536 00:25:55,580 --> 00:25:58,690 going to revamp our privacy law and also introduce the AI and 537 00:25:58,700 --> 00:26:00,920 Data Act, actually died in committee because of the 538 00:26:00,930 --> 00:26:03,210 election, because of because the government fell. 539 00:26:03,260 --> 00:26:06,330 But it'll be back and that'll be a wholesale change in the 540 00:26:06,340 --> 00:26:08,690 privacy law. And we used to have, you know, 541 00:26:08,700 --> 00:26:11,640 PIPEDA, we still do, but it's it's on its way out, PIPEDA and 542 00:26:11,650 --> 00:26:13,660 the Privacy Act. And, you know, there are lawyers 543 00:26:13,670 --> 00:26:17,360 who made their career from having been on the ground floor 544 00:26:17,430 --> 00:26:19,450 for that change a generation ago. 545 00:26:20,160 --> 00:26:22,860 And so if you're someone who's interested in being useful to 546 00:26:22,870 --> 00:26:26,730 your clients on the modern contours of privacy law, then 547 00:26:26,740 --> 00:26:28,510 you should observe what's happening right now in the 548 00:26:28,520 --> 00:26:31,670 Parliament with Bill C27 and learn about it even before it 549 00:26:31,900 --> 00:26:37,090 makes it to getting royal assent, because you will be 550 00:26:37,100 --> 00:26:38,950 ahead of the game. You'll be able to provide 551 00:26:38,960 --> 00:26:41,580 important advice. And by the way, any company 552 00:26:41,590 --> 00:26:44,450 that's worth their salt, that is serious about privacy law, 553 00:26:44,520 --> 00:26:47,910 they're adopting, they're adapting their practices to the 554 00:26:47,920 --> 00:26:50,190 new laws even before they pass. Right. 555 00:26:50,280 --> 00:26:52,550 And so you have an opportunity to say, you know what, I have 556 00:26:52,560 --> 00:26:55,570 this advantage. Like I'm someone who's inclined 557 00:26:55,580 --> 00:26:59,210 technologically, there's substantive legal changes that 558 00:26:59,220 --> 00:27:02,210 are occurring and I'm on the ground floor for it. 559 00:27:02,220 --> 00:27:05,210 And so you you can, you can actually, you know, make a life 560 00:27:05,220 --> 00:27:08,890 well, you know, from just they've been early in that way. 561 00:27:08,980 --> 00:27:11,190 And so I would encourage students who are listening, 562 00:27:11,260 --> 00:27:15,450 monitor developments, be up, be a relentless court watcher also, 563 00:27:15,610 --> 00:27:17,520 right? Because the rest of us in the 564 00:27:17,530 --> 00:27:20,630 profession, it takes a minute to catch up, just a minute to catch 565 00:27:20,640 --> 00:27:22,390 up. Yeah, fantastic. 566 00:27:22,400 --> 00:27:25,580 I really wanted to thank you so much for your time for bringing 567 00:27:25,590 --> 00:27:27,110 up this advice. I would. 568 00:27:27,160 --> 00:27:29,530 I would talk to you. I would sit here and talk to you 569 00:27:29,600 --> 00:27:31,750 anytime, even if we weren't recording. 570 00:27:32,240 --> 00:27:35,750 I really appreciate you, Professor, and thank you all for 571 00:27:35,760 --> 00:27:38,500 tuning into this episode and we'll see you on the next one.