1 00:00:12,870 --> 00:00:14,860 Welcome to Studying Law Around the World. 2 00:00:15,020 --> 00:00:17,860 I'm Claudio Claus. In each episode, I talk with 3 00:00:17,870 --> 00:00:20,840 lawyers, law students, and professors from different parts 4 00:00:20,850 --> 00:00:24,740 of the world to talk about legal education, careers, and what the 5 00:00:24,750 --> 00:00:26,420 profession looks like in real life. 6 00:00:26,430 --> 00:00:29,470 We talk about the hard parts, the surprises, and the decisions 7 00:00:29,480 --> 00:00:32,259 that shaped their paths. Whether you're planning to study 8 00:00:32,270 --> 00:00:35,520 abroad, thinking about working in another legal system, or just 9 00:00:35,530 --> 00:00:39,640 curious about how law works around the world, this podcast 10 00:00:39,650 --> 00:00:45,680 is for you. Some hello everybody. 11 00:00:45,690 --> 00:00:48,340 Welcome to another episode of Studying Law around the World. 12 00:00:48,350 --> 00:00:51,500 Today I'll be interviewing Brad Cohen, who is the CEO and 13 00:00:51,510 --> 00:00:55,350 founder of Good Lawyer, an incredible company that is very 14 00:00:55,360 --> 00:00:58,940 much changing the landscape of what a fractional in-house 15 00:00:58,950 --> 00:01:02,640 counsel looks like in Canada, a very innovative endeavor. 16 00:01:02,730 --> 00:01:05,860 And I wanted to ask you to start up our podcast today. 17 00:01:05,870 --> 00:01:08,180 Brad, if you could introduce yourself to your listeners and 18 00:01:08,230 --> 00:01:09,870 and share a little bit about your background. 19 00:01:11,160 --> 00:01:13,070 For sure, man. Well, I think you did a pretty 20 00:01:13,080 --> 00:01:15,290 good job just to fill in a few gaps. 21 00:01:15,300 --> 00:01:18,340 So my name is Brick Calvin and I'm one of the cofounders and 22 00:01:18,350 --> 00:01:23,560 the CEO of Good Lawyer. Good Layer is really a platform, 23 00:01:23,570 --> 00:01:31,610 a townhouse to attract in-house lawyers who are looking for more 24 00:01:31,620 --> 00:01:37,860 flexibility or a little more entrepreneurial lean in in the 25 00:01:37,870 --> 00:01:41,230 practices that they're building. And Good Lawyer has evolved a 26 00:01:41,240 --> 00:01:44,990 lot over the years. I started my career BLG, spent 4 27 00:01:45,000 --> 00:01:49,230 1/2 years there, you know, for a period thought I would be there 28 00:01:49,240 --> 00:01:53,860 for a long time, but ultimately my entrepreneurial spirit and I 29 00:01:53,870 --> 00:01:57,680 was always kind of was Mr. Ideas Guy, which was not a compliment. 30 00:01:59,440 --> 00:02:05,180 Ultimately bumped into to too many walls and I I just was a 31 00:02:05,190 --> 00:02:08,940 little bit exasperated and and finally sort of convinced that 32 00:02:08,949 --> 00:02:12,520 if I wanted to affect change in this industry that, you know, 33 00:02:12,590 --> 00:02:14,860 I've been a part of and, you know, was going to spend my 34 00:02:14,870 --> 00:02:18,310 career in, I wasn't gonna be able to do it from the inside. 35 00:02:18,430 --> 00:02:23,580 So that's really why sparked sort of the the desire to build. 36 00:02:23,590 --> 00:02:26,320 Good Lord, I've always been a little munchkin. 37 00:02:26,330 --> 00:02:30,150 Would be. Is that a little kid good where 38 00:02:30,160 --> 00:02:33,840 you know, for me has been a platform to express many of the 39 00:02:33,850 --> 00:02:37,870 ideas and the frustration and the first thing where and 40 00:02:38,150 --> 00:02:41,780 probably we've got a treatment sunroom talented people onto our 41 00:02:42,090 --> 00:02:45,700 team that have really contributed to shaping, you 42 00:02:45,710 --> 00:02:47,380 know, getting a good lawyer to where it is today. 43 00:02:47,390 --> 00:02:51,980 So yeah, that's me. That's awesome. 44 00:02:52,030 --> 00:02:55,040 I read a little bit about the story of good lawyer and, and if 45 00:02:55,050 --> 00:03:00,170 I'm recalling it correctly, that comes really from a conversation 46 00:03:00,180 --> 00:03:02,550 you had in the beginning of your law school experience. 47 00:03:02,750 --> 00:03:05,280 So I'd love to hear a little bit about that. 48 00:03:05,290 --> 00:03:08,240 And and then also even, you know, looking back, how did that 49 00:03:08,250 --> 00:03:11,920 conversation really shaped this vision for your career? 50 00:03:11,990 --> 00:03:14,920 Because you're finished up law school and then worked at a law 51 00:03:14,930 --> 00:03:17,220 firm for a while. So that was kind of in the back 52 00:03:17,230 --> 00:03:18,720 burner for a long time. Where? 53 00:03:18,950 --> 00:03:22,400 How did that go? Yeah, so I mean, I think you're 54 00:03:22,410 --> 00:03:27,770 talking about the the story about Mel and Moe was an 55 00:03:27,780 --> 00:03:32,790 immigrant entrepreneur coffee shop near the law school. 56 00:03:32,800 --> 00:03:36,390 And I want to see UA for for business and law. 57 00:03:36,400 --> 00:03:39,450 And so I got to know Moe a little bit during Business 58 00:03:39,460 --> 00:03:41,210 School. He was probably my go to coffee 59 00:03:41,220 --> 00:03:44,410 shop and then go back for law bumped into him again. 60 00:03:44,480 --> 00:03:48,980 He remembered me, and you're just having this, like, jovial 61 00:03:48,990 --> 00:03:51,980 conversation. And then he asked me what was I 62 00:03:51,990 --> 00:03:55,380 doing in the building? I said, oh, I'm in law school 63 00:03:55,390 --> 00:03:59,040 now, and I was one. Moe went from really friendly to 64 00:03:59,270 --> 00:04:02,050 a bit more serious. And I just remember him looking 65 00:04:02,060 --> 00:04:06,360 at me and like pointing at me and saying be a good lawyer, be 66 00:04:06,370 --> 00:04:09,280 a good lawyer. He really held on that be a good 67 00:04:09,290 --> 00:04:15,750 lawyer piece and I don't know it it just it hit me like a ton of 68 00:04:15,760 --> 00:04:18,880 bricks. And there was something about 69 00:04:18,890 --> 00:04:21,480 that that phrasing, that good lawyer. 70 00:04:21,750 --> 00:04:25,140 And, you know, he wasn't just talking about being a smart, you 71 00:04:25,150 --> 00:04:28,170 know, competent practitioner. He was there. 72 00:04:28,180 --> 00:04:30,140 There was something deeper sort of embedded in that. 73 00:04:30,150 --> 00:04:34,040 And you know, really, I think from my experience, you know, in 74 00:04:34,050 --> 00:04:36,840 law school, in the firm and then, you know, these last 5-6 75 00:04:36,850 --> 00:04:39,850 years building good lawyer, 99% of the lawyers I meet are, are 76 00:04:39,860 --> 00:04:42,100 really good people. They want to make a positive 77 00:04:42,110 --> 00:04:43,760 difference in the world. They want to support their 78 00:04:43,770 --> 00:04:46,180 families, they want to support their colleagues. 79 00:04:46,690 --> 00:04:51,200 But the system that, you know, we're trained to come up in and 80 00:04:51,490 --> 00:04:54,960 you know, one of the most famous lawyer lines is whenever I see, 81 00:04:54,970 --> 00:04:56,080 you know, why did we do it this way? 82 00:04:56,130 --> 00:04:59,450 It was, you know, always sort of the response I always got was, 83 00:04:59,460 --> 00:05:01,460 you know, because it's always been done this way and that 84 00:05:01,470 --> 00:05:04,360 never really said so well. So I think, you know, the way 85 00:05:04,370 --> 00:05:07,920 that I saw where my career could have gone and stayed in the big 86 00:05:07,930 --> 00:05:11,590 firm, I just couldn't look myself in the face and like sort 87 00:05:11,600 --> 00:05:14,870 of see that trajectory to see the the partners who I respected 88 00:05:14,940 --> 00:05:19,830 but didn't want that same career path of that same life that I 89 00:05:19,840 --> 00:05:22,510 saw them living. And I mean, frankly, I can't 90 00:05:22,760 --> 00:05:24,900 always been a bit of a crazy entrepreneur. 91 00:05:24,910 --> 00:05:28,430 And so for me just being sort of stuff old in terms of my 92 00:05:28,440 --> 00:05:33,430 creativity, trying new things or challenging the status quo was 93 00:05:33,680 --> 00:05:35,550 was not the environment to do it in. 94 00:05:35,820 --> 00:05:39,410 You know, again, that sort of kicked off the good lawyer 95 00:05:39,420 --> 00:05:42,750 journey, but what good lawyer has become today, if I'm being 96 00:05:42,760 --> 00:05:44,890 completely honest, you know, back in first year law when I 97 00:05:44,900 --> 00:05:47,600 was talking to Moe, I could not have pictured. 98 00:05:48,260 --> 00:05:52,120 I just knew that I was going to start a business one day. 99 00:05:52,330 --> 00:05:55,490 Good Lawyers felt special when most said it. 100 00:05:55,540 --> 00:05:58,700 And, you know, it wasn't until years later, after the firm and 101 00:05:58,710 --> 00:06:01,640 even into the good lawyer journey where, you know, we 102 00:06:01,650 --> 00:06:06,640 really narrowed in and realized that there was this big gap for 103 00:06:06,690 --> 00:06:09,390 businesses, you know, who have complex legal needs. 104 00:06:09,400 --> 00:06:11,980 You know, the two traditional things for those corporate 105 00:06:11,990 --> 00:06:15,860 lawyers were a big law generally in the in-house route. 106 00:06:15,870 --> 00:06:18,580 And it just was so clear that there was something missing in 107 00:06:18,590 --> 00:06:21,360 the middle. And so we've been focused on 108 00:06:21,750 --> 00:06:24,900 trying to build and we keep learning and keep iterating 109 00:06:24,910 --> 00:06:26,700 every day. Except it has been good. 110 00:06:26,710 --> 00:06:29,310 And I'm excited for what the future holds. 111 00:06:30,460 --> 00:06:34,170 That's amazing, that's amazing. It's been it's been fun to watch 112 00:06:34,180 --> 00:06:35,910 it from like far away. No way. 113 00:06:35,920 --> 00:06:39,550 Something that I've noticed and and that I'm trying to kind of 114 00:06:39,620 --> 00:06:42,690 understand more and more as as I speak to all their lawyers. 115 00:06:42,880 --> 00:06:46,070 I feel like one of the things that I'm noticing is that many 116 00:06:46,080 --> 00:06:49,610 times the motto is really like accommodating for people who are 117 00:06:49,620 --> 00:06:52,750 very close to retiring. But then is is very hard for 118 00:06:52,760 --> 00:06:54,710 those kind of coming into the pipeline. 119 00:06:54,720 --> 00:06:57,590 And then maybe a lot of these models are still kind of 120 00:06:57,600 --> 00:06:59,720 following that, catering to that public. 121 00:06:59,780 --> 00:07:03,650 But specifically about your business model, I'm trying to 122 00:07:03,700 --> 00:07:07,830 understand here, you know, what, what problem were you and, and 123 00:07:07,840 --> 00:07:11,930 are you solving for both the lawyers and the clients in this, 124 00:07:11,980 --> 00:07:14,610 in this style of, of doing business? 125 00:07:14,620 --> 00:07:18,180 And you know, I think me and, and some of my listeners might 126 00:07:18,190 --> 00:07:21,600 not have, you know, the, the picture of what, what the 127 00:07:21,610 --> 00:07:24,280 industry looks like right now. So if you don't mind kind of 128 00:07:24,290 --> 00:07:27,440 sharing with us quickly, what does the like traditional 129 00:07:27,450 --> 00:07:30,980 secondment or staffing model looks right now looks like and 130 00:07:30,990 --> 00:07:33,110 and then versus what good lawyers is doing? 131 00:07:34,630 --> 00:07:37,060 Yeah, I'm happy to kind of fill in some of those blanks, right. 132 00:07:37,530 --> 00:07:41,940 So maybe for starters, good lawyers focused on business law, 133 00:07:42,060 --> 00:07:45,930 you know, we're not doing family criminal like we, we have a lane 134 00:07:45,940 --> 00:07:49,940 and or something that lane aligns with even, you know, 135 00:07:49,950 --> 00:07:51,630 things I'm testing, which is business. 136 00:07:52,100 --> 00:07:56,110 And so we we stay very strictly in that business lane. 137 00:07:56,580 --> 00:07:59,630 And then when it comes to like the company that we're 138 00:07:59,640 --> 00:08:03,930 supporting, it's pretty simple. You know, for these larger mid 139 00:08:03,940 --> 00:08:07,490 market or enterprise organizations, they have a 140 00:08:07,500 --> 00:08:09,630 tremendous amount of legal needs. 141 00:08:09,640 --> 00:08:14,390 And you know, if you rewind the clock far enough, all of those 142 00:08:14,400 --> 00:08:18,010 legal needs were serviced by external traditional law firms 143 00:08:19,420 --> 00:08:22,140 at some point. You know, don't pin me to a 144 00:08:22,150 --> 00:08:26,010 date, but 20-30 years ago there was this realization that, you 145 00:08:26,020 --> 00:08:31,200 know, sending all the work outside of the business was A 146 00:08:31,210 --> 00:08:36,340 expensive and B, and perhaps B is the at least as important 147 00:08:36,409 --> 00:08:39,309 disconnected. There was always somebody in the 148 00:08:39,320 --> 00:08:43,840 business who was forced to quarterback those legal needs. 149 00:08:43,850 --> 00:08:46,900 And as organizations got more complex, you know, market 150 00:08:46,910 --> 00:08:50,300 capital cap companies got bigger and bigger, those legal needs 151 00:08:50,510 --> 00:08:53,240 got more complex. That continued to compound and 152 00:08:53,250 --> 00:08:57,000 eventually they started building that legal muscle in house. 153 00:08:57,920 --> 00:09:00,190 They knew that there would still be work that they needed to send 154 00:09:00,200 --> 00:09:02,250 externally. But more and more, and if you 155 00:09:02,260 --> 00:09:04,750 look at this, the sort of growth of in-house legal teams over the 156 00:09:04,760 --> 00:09:06,310 last 20 years, like, it's incredible. 157 00:09:06,420 --> 00:09:09,690 Like in-house legal teams have gotten bigger and bigger every 158 00:09:09,700 --> 00:09:13,570 year as the organization, the company brings more and more of 159 00:09:13,580 --> 00:09:17,090 that legal muscle inside. The business of the Post is 160 00:09:17,100 --> 00:09:21,990 sending it out to external law firms and that's, you know, a 161 00:09:22,000 --> 00:09:25,870 trend that is crystal clear and, and from my perspective of the 162 00:09:25,880 --> 00:09:28,660 entrepreneur, makes a ton of sense because you want to solve 163 00:09:28,670 --> 00:09:32,140 legal problems, legal issues, take advantage of legal 164 00:09:32,150 --> 00:09:35,590 opportunities as close to the metal of the business as 165 00:09:35,600 --> 00:09:37,720 possible. And so it makes a lot of sense 166 00:09:37,730 --> 00:09:40,850 that these in-house legal teams more connected, more cost 167 00:09:40,860 --> 00:09:45,150 effective, continue to grow and where good lawyer comes in. 168 00:09:45,500 --> 00:09:47,010 And again, I'm focusing on the business. 169 00:09:47,020 --> 00:09:49,170 I'll come back to the lawyers. We're good lawyer comes in for a 170 00:09:49,180 --> 00:09:54,050 business is splitting the middle between the pros and cons of 171 00:09:54,060 --> 00:09:58,110 hiring another full time employee, another in-house 172 00:09:58,120 --> 00:10:00,800 lawyer onto your team or perhaps your first in-house lawyer onto 173 00:10:00,810 --> 00:10:03,930 your team and sending work externally to law firms. 174 00:10:03,940 --> 00:10:08,830 And so you know where you need an FTE as opposed to where you 175 00:10:08,840 --> 00:10:10,630 would like to send workout to a law firm. 176 00:10:10,640 --> 00:10:13,730 Like that's a big gap. And good lawyer is, you know, 177 00:10:13,740 --> 00:10:17,780 we're just obsessed with trying to fill that in between space as 178 00:10:17,790 --> 00:10:20,680 well as we can. And that's where this whole 179 00:10:20,690 --> 00:10:24,130 concept of fractional in-house counsel or fractional GC for 180 00:10:24,140 --> 00:10:28,150 those mid caps really came to bear and and has been the 181 00:10:28,160 --> 00:10:31,220 launchpad for the business we're building now on the talent side. 182 00:10:31,910 --> 00:10:34,890 And maybe just to wrap up there, it's way more cost and Googlers 183 00:10:34,900 --> 00:10:37,120 way more cost effective than sending work externally 184 00:10:37,210 --> 00:10:41,790 dramatically. And it's faster and simpler for 185 00:10:41,800 --> 00:10:45,830 a GC inside, you know, a Fortune 500 to augment their existing 186 00:10:45,840 --> 00:10:50,150 in-house legal team with some specialization for maybe you 187 00:10:50,160 --> 00:10:52,850 know, internal portfolio. That could be, you know, fintech 188 00:10:52,860 --> 00:10:55,510 regulation that could be supporting the partnerships 189 00:10:55,640 --> 00:10:58,970 revenue team. So there's there's a million 190 00:10:58,980 --> 00:11:04,300 ways that you can find the right talent, plug them in in a cost 191 00:11:04,310 --> 00:11:08,410 effective way without the burden of having to find another full 192 00:11:08,420 --> 00:11:11,510 time time resource into the business. 193 00:11:12,080 --> 00:11:14,670 The side that I actually I think is the most interesting though 194 00:11:14,680 --> 00:11:19,030 is the, you know, the lawyer side of the equation within good 195 00:11:19,040 --> 00:11:21,880 layer. And there's been a huge move to 196 00:11:21,890 --> 00:11:24,990 fractional across many service industries, professional 197 00:11:25,000 --> 00:11:26,680 services. You know, we've been seeing the 198 00:11:26,690 --> 00:11:29,730 fractional CFO guys for a long time and you know, you can 199 00:11:29,740 --> 00:11:32,320 pretty much hire any fractional C-Suite you want. 200 00:11:32,980 --> 00:11:35,510 And that's all well and good, but I actually think that the 201 00:11:35,520 --> 00:11:40,280 fractional model works better for law than any other level. 202 00:11:40,290 --> 00:11:44,260 And the reason being is law is so technical and the 203 00:11:44,270 --> 00:11:48,960 alternatives so often are to outsource that legal issue, that 204 00:11:48,970 --> 00:11:53,000 legal need to an external firm who's, you know, totally 205 00:11:53,010 --> 00:11:56,120 disconnected from being close to that metal in the business. 206 00:11:56,130 --> 00:11:59,640 That it lends itself quite nicely to a specialist coming in 207 00:12:00,170 --> 00:12:04,680 and supporting in a way that the current existing sort of 208 00:12:05,030 --> 00:12:07,660 internal structure of that organization, whether it's a big 209 00:12:07,670 --> 00:12:11,400 in-house legal team, whether it's the CFO playing lawyer in a 210 00:12:11,410 --> 00:12:15,060 way that is dramatically more streamlined than sending work to 211 00:12:15,070 --> 00:12:17,080 the firm. And as I noted, sort of less 212 00:12:17,090 --> 00:12:20,680 burdensome than trying to figure out and asks about expertise 213 00:12:20,810 --> 00:12:23,540 full time in the business. And this trend that we've been 214 00:12:23,550 --> 00:12:26,320 seeing in fractional finally started to catch on with 215 00:12:26,330 --> 00:12:27,840 lawyers. I don't know, in the last like 216 00:12:27,850 --> 00:12:31,540 2-3 years, certainly in Canada, it's been very recent and think 217 00:12:31,550 --> 00:12:35,000 good lawyer played a fairly significant role in helping 218 00:12:35,010 --> 00:12:37,480 promote the whole idea. You know, I didn't make up 219 00:12:37,490 --> 00:12:41,380 fractional GC, but I do think we distributed that idea across 220 00:12:41,390 --> 00:12:44,220 Canada in a way that we hadn't seen previously. 221 00:12:44,230 --> 00:12:47,380 And the reason, and that's the other thing that I notice a lot 222 00:12:47,390 --> 00:12:50,350 is sometimes there's and and it's less and less every day, 223 00:12:50,360 --> 00:12:53,560 but there's this perception that lawyers working in this 224 00:12:53,570 --> 00:12:57,640 fractional flexible legal space doing it because they couldn't 225 00:12:57,650 --> 00:13:00,220 do anything else. They couldn't get in the big 226 00:13:00,230 --> 00:13:03,950 firm, they couldn't rise at the race in the House legal team. 227 00:13:03,960 --> 00:13:08,180 And I could assure you that is absolutely not the case. 228 00:13:08,190 --> 00:13:11,430 We are constantly having, you know, the businesses that we 229 00:13:11,440 --> 00:13:14,800 work with trying to convert the fractional lawyers full time. 230 00:13:14,810 --> 00:13:16,380 And if that's what the lawyer wants and that's what the 231 00:13:16,390 --> 00:13:18,220 business wants, that's what we want. 232 00:13:18,230 --> 00:13:20,590 You know, we're here to facilitate that relationship. 233 00:13:20,760 --> 00:13:23,630 But these lawyers that are truly thriving in this fractional 234 00:13:23,640 --> 00:13:26,270 world, it is the most desirable way for them to practice. 235 00:13:26,320 --> 00:13:30,230 They don't want to do anything else because what it does is it 236 00:13:30,420 --> 00:13:33,930 puts them in control and you know, now they get to practice 237 00:13:33,940 --> 00:13:35,810 in a way that fits into their life. 238 00:13:35,900 --> 00:13:37,770 It gives them tremendous flexibility. 239 00:13:38,860 --> 00:13:43,050 You know, we've got the former GC of Cadbury 2 fractionals half 240 00:13:43,060 --> 00:13:47,490 time she go get GC jobs all over the place. 241 00:13:48,260 --> 00:13:52,010 She chooses not to because she's at a stage in her career where, 242 00:13:52,260 --> 00:13:53,810 you know, she wants to work halftime. 243 00:13:53,820 --> 00:13:56,200 She still wants to work on sophisticated work and with 244 00:13:56,210 --> 00:13:59,500 really impressive, you know, businesses organization, but she 245 00:13:59,510 --> 00:14:02,350 doesn't want to do it full time. She's already gone through that 246 00:14:02,360 --> 00:14:05,250 a couple of times in her career and like she's over that. 247 00:14:05,260 --> 00:14:07,050 It was a great experience, but she doesn't want to do that 248 00:14:07,060 --> 00:14:08,950 right now. She wants to, you know, sailor 249 00:14:08,960 --> 00:14:11,070 boat and enjoy life a little bit more. 250 00:14:11,840 --> 00:14:15,650 On the flip end, we have layers that are, and this is probably 251 00:14:15,660 --> 00:14:18,310 the most common segment in the Goodyear network that kind of 252 00:14:18,320 --> 00:14:23,510 like 8 to 15 year call spent, you know, their first 3-4 years 253 00:14:23,520 --> 00:14:27,630 like I did in big law and then probably 2/3 of that time 254 00:14:27,700 --> 00:14:30,970 working in house in an industry they're passionate about. 255 00:14:31,280 --> 00:14:35,050 And for these folks, again, flexibility can be really 256 00:14:35,060 --> 00:14:39,670 critical, you know, raising a family, taking care of like 257 00:14:39,740 --> 00:14:42,620 elderly parents, whatever, wanting to travel the world. 258 00:14:42,630 --> 00:14:45,570 There's a lot of reasons why folks in the prime of their 259 00:14:45,580 --> 00:14:48,590 career want that flexibility. But then we also have other 260 00:14:48,600 --> 00:14:52,690 folks that love in house work, don't want to be chasing a 261 00:14:52,700 --> 00:14:56,310 billable target all year, don't want the burden of having to 262 00:14:56,320 --> 00:14:58,730 build a book and become partner and do that whole thing. 263 00:14:58,800 --> 00:15:03,390 But they do want to Max their income and they, you know, are 264 00:15:03,400 --> 00:15:07,280 itching to fill their plate up sort of maximum because that's 265 00:15:07,290 --> 00:15:10,150 the other thing, you know, it takes a bit more time to stack 266 00:15:10,160 --> 00:15:12,790 fractionals if you're, you know, a good lawyer in the network. 267 00:15:13,060 --> 00:15:15,590 But once you do, you're making a higher unit rate than you would 268 00:15:15,600 --> 00:15:18,250 if you had a full time job. So, you know, we've got good 269 00:15:18,260 --> 00:15:22,590 lawyers work in like the GC I mentioned, working a couple days 270 00:15:22,600 --> 00:15:26,280 a week, making north of 200. And then we've got other 271 00:15:26,370 --> 00:15:28,460 lawyers, prime time of their career. 272 00:15:28,550 --> 00:15:33,330 They're here to like, you know, build as much as they can, close 273 00:15:33,340 --> 00:15:35,980 to half $1,000,000. And so there is this like 274 00:15:35,990 --> 00:15:40,600 spectrum of opportunities for lawyers, but it really does come 275 00:15:40,610 --> 00:15:43,610 down to sort of the starting point, which is I either want 276 00:15:43,620 --> 00:15:47,720 flexibility or I want something a little more entrepreneurial 277 00:15:47,930 --> 00:15:49,960 than I'm getting in any of these full time roles. 278 00:15:50,690 --> 00:15:52,600 That's a long way to answer, but there you go. 279 00:15:52,810 --> 00:15:55,200 Oh, that's, that's amazing. I really appreciate you going 280 00:15:55,210 --> 00:15:59,120 into the details and it makes so much sense of why both business 281 00:15:59,130 --> 00:16:02,900 and a lawyer could really want to work in this model and and 282 00:16:02,910 --> 00:16:06,300 going a little drilling on the on the talent side of it. 283 00:16:06,310 --> 00:16:09,140 Since you mentioned it so much. I'm, I'm not sure if this is 284 00:16:09,150 --> 00:16:13,160 your motto or good lawyers Moto, but something along the lines of 285 00:16:13,170 --> 00:16:17,360 wind the talent win the game. So I'd love to hear a little 286 00:16:17,370 --> 00:16:21,000 more about, you know, how do you find that and retain that that 287 00:16:21,010 --> 00:16:25,700 top legal talent and especially at the same time, what makes 288 00:16:25,710 --> 00:16:28,840 good lawyer be the choice for those lawyers today? 289 00:16:28,890 --> 00:16:31,100 You just mentioned a lot about, you know, the flexibility, the 290 00:16:31,110 --> 00:16:34,240 possibility of flexibility both in the income and the working 291 00:16:34,250 --> 00:16:37,010 hours, but I'd love to hear a little more on that. 292 00:16:37,930 --> 00:16:41,440 So I mean, I think one of the things that, you know, probably 293 00:16:41,450 --> 00:16:44,900 the reason I'm on the podcast today that we've done well is 294 00:16:45,130 --> 00:16:49,280 we've built a brand and, you know, we've built this growing 295 00:16:49,290 --> 00:16:55,560 community, especially in Canada of lawyers who, you know, maybe 296 00:16:55,570 --> 00:16:58,470 aren't the the crazy entrepreneur like I am that, you 297 00:16:58,480 --> 00:17:01,040 know, wanted to live in grandma's basement for a couple 298 00:17:01,050 --> 00:17:02,570 of years to get good lawyer off the ground. 299 00:17:03,840 --> 00:17:09,470 But they do feel that something is not quite working for them in 300 00:17:09,859 --> 00:17:12,849 the traditional models, whether that's, you know, often, you 301 00:17:12,859 --> 00:17:16,410 know, that's from their time working in big law, but could 302 00:17:16,420 --> 00:17:19,790 also be from, you know, going as far as they want to go in a full 303 00:17:19,800 --> 00:17:23,579 time role in house. And because we've built this 304 00:17:23,589 --> 00:17:27,040 brand and I think, you know, we keep on refining and hopefully 305 00:17:27,089 --> 00:17:30,620 doing a better job at, you know, telling our story and mission 306 00:17:30,630 --> 00:17:34,410 and and what we're all about, you know, to the world, 307 00:17:34,420 --> 00:17:37,590 especially if that segment of the world's on LinkedIn where we 308 00:17:37,600 --> 00:17:40,590 do most of our talking or storytelling. 309 00:17:42,430 --> 00:17:47,050 But because we've built that brand, there's been no period in 310 00:17:47,120 --> 00:17:51,790 the history of Good Lawyer where we haven't been able to find 311 00:17:52,020 --> 00:17:54,720 talent. Yeah. 312 00:17:54,730 --> 00:17:58,500 We, we haven't been very fortunately and and somewhat 313 00:17:58,510 --> 00:18:05,120 haphazardly become a magnet for folks that resonate with. 314 00:18:05,610 --> 00:18:08,120 I think just the general idea that there should be something 315 00:18:08,130 --> 00:18:13,720 else that the, the traditional paths are great for a lot, a lot 316 00:18:13,730 --> 00:18:18,690 of lawyers, but not all lawyers. And there's too many that feel 317 00:18:18,700 --> 00:18:22,270 stuck in one of those traditional paths and, you know, 318 00:18:22,320 --> 00:18:25,030 way too many who just opt out of the profession entirely. 319 00:18:25,540 --> 00:18:29,970 And so I think because we've, you know, created space for this 320 00:18:30,870 --> 00:18:34,890 highly attractive alternative lawyers, you know, are applying 321 00:18:34,900 --> 00:18:37,910 to be in the good lawyer network everyday, like almost there. 322 00:18:37,920 --> 00:18:40,890 There's almost never a day that goes by where we don't have a 323 00:18:40,900 --> 00:18:43,350 lawyer apply to be in the network. 324 00:18:43,360 --> 00:18:46,650 And what's that? What that has driven internally 325 00:18:46,660 --> 00:18:50,670 a good lawyer because 1/4 of my in-house team is product in 326 00:18:50,680 --> 00:18:53,990 depth. And so that inbound interest and 327 00:18:54,000 --> 00:18:57,050 then just that sheer sort of growing number of lawyers that 328 00:18:57,060 --> 00:19:00,240 we vetted to be in the community and therefore like in our 329 00:19:00,250 --> 00:19:04,450 database and they're available for opportunities has pushed us 330 00:19:04,460 --> 00:19:07,330 to build tools. And all the advancements in AI 331 00:19:07,340 --> 00:19:10,830 recently have made those tools a hell of a lot more powerful to 332 00:19:10,900 --> 00:19:15,050 help us find that needle in the haystack that is perfect for the 333 00:19:15,060 --> 00:19:18,040 mandate that just came in, that opportunity that just came in 334 00:19:18,310 --> 00:19:23,520 and connect those dots with a tiny team relative to the number 335 00:19:23,530 --> 00:19:25,310 of professionals that we're supporting him. 336 00:19:25,480 --> 00:19:28,540 And I think another good sort of number to throw out there is 337 00:19:28,550 --> 00:19:31,960 like when I think back to my my big firm days, there was 338 00:19:31,970 --> 00:19:37,790 probably 1 1/2, maybe even 2 sort of not when I don't like 339 00:19:37,800 --> 00:19:40,200 this term, but the non more sort of support staff, whether that's 340 00:19:40,210 --> 00:19:44,030 assistance paralegals, marketing folks like other bodies inside 341 00:19:44,040 --> 00:19:47,720 the firm, supporting the revenue generators, which are all 342 00:19:47,730 --> 00:19:49,720 lawyers. There's no revenue generators 343 00:19:49,730 --> 00:19:51,820 inside of a firm that aren't billing hours. 344 00:19:51,830 --> 00:19:55,040 And you know that ratio of let you know, let's just call it 1 345 00:19:55,050 --> 00:19:57,860 1/2 to every lawyer in our model. 346 00:19:57,870 --> 00:20:01,430 You know, we've got over 400 lawyers now and 16 full-time 347 00:20:01,440 --> 00:20:03,470 people on the team. I think we're just about to 348 00:20:03,480 --> 00:20:07,640 hire, you know, four more bodies onto the team, maybe a fifth in 349 00:20:07,650 --> 00:20:11,750 the next couple weeks here, which when you're a 16 person 350 00:20:11,760 --> 00:20:14,050 full Time Team is a lot of growth. 351 00:20:14,060 --> 00:20:18,950 But our ability to service over 400 lawyers with such a skeleton 352 00:20:18,960 --> 00:20:21,790 crew? Is a function of the tools that 353 00:20:21,800 --> 00:20:24,330 we've built, the processes, I mean the business model 354 00:20:24,340 --> 00:20:27,670 generally, but I kind of lost my train of thought there, but 355 00:20:27,680 --> 00:20:28,700 hopefully that answers your question. 356 00:20:29,540 --> 00:20:32,130 No, absolutely does it absolutely does. 357 00:20:32,340 --> 00:20:36,220 And I guess I didn't discuss this extensively with you, but 358 00:20:36,230 --> 00:20:39,390 who I'm speaking to here in the podcast, most of my listeners 359 00:20:39,400 --> 00:20:42,400 nowadays are early career professionals, people who are 360 00:20:42,410 --> 00:20:45,310 looking into what a career could look like and all of that. 361 00:20:45,320 --> 00:20:49,250 And, and, and knowing that, you know, you navigated a big law, 362 00:20:49,260 --> 00:20:52,610 you launched good lawyer, very like business oriented and all 363 00:20:52,620 --> 00:20:54,710 of that. I I'd love to hear, you know, if 364 00:20:54,760 --> 00:20:58,450 if you look back, is there some kind of piece of advice you 365 00:20:58,460 --> 00:21:01,970 issued have been given, you know, right at the start of your 366 00:21:01,980 --> 00:21:05,820 career or, or after leaving all of these, you know, is there 367 00:21:05,830 --> 00:21:09,470 something that you would tell to younger lawyers now that are, 368 00:21:09,520 --> 00:21:12,760 you know, oftentimes looking around and seeing maybe not as 369 00:21:12,770 --> 00:21:16,600 many opportunities or, or maybe seeing a system that by some can 370 00:21:16,610 --> 00:21:20,020 be described as broken or, or one that will lead to, you know, 371 00:21:20,030 --> 00:21:23,890 not as great of outcomes? Yeah, for sure. 372 00:21:23,940 --> 00:21:30,280 Um, so for all those, you know, sued to be or brand new lawyers 373 00:21:30,290 --> 00:21:34,460 listening like Elon, I'm not going to give you a date, but I 374 00:21:34,530 --> 00:21:37,820 can't guarantee that there will be, you know, a good layer 375 00:21:37,830 --> 00:21:41,780 apprentice, a good lawyer articling program at some point 376 00:21:41,790 --> 00:21:43,380 in the future because it's so obvious. 377 00:21:43,390 --> 00:21:50,450 And you know, where law started it in a way where, you know, me 378 00:21:50,460 --> 00:21:52,050 and the team are trying to take it back to. 379 00:21:52,060 --> 00:21:56,690 And yeah, I'm just going to give you like a unrequested quick 380 00:21:56,700 --> 00:21:59,170 history lesson. But when you know lawyers 381 00:21:59,180 --> 00:22:04,220 started working with businesses, you know, 100 years ago, a 382 00:22:04,230 --> 00:22:07,800 lawyer and you know the CEO or whoever was writing the business 383 00:22:08,010 --> 00:22:10,330 would have a conversation at the beginning of the year. 384 00:22:11,290 --> 00:22:17,150 They would agree on the help. They would get paid in 12 385 00:22:17,200 --> 00:22:21,240 monthly installments just like a fractional lawyer does today. 386 00:22:21,500 --> 00:22:24,010 And you know, you get this much of my time that lawyer would 387 00:22:24,020 --> 00:22:25,990 have a few businesses that he was supporting or she was 388 00:22:26,000 --> 00:22:29,080 supporting. It was off to the races. 389 00:22:29,090 --> 00:22:31,330 There was no tracking of time whatsoever. 390 00:22:31,850 --> 00:22:35,560 It was really morning. I trusted agreement and overtime 391 00:22:35,570 --> 00:22:39,140 it was actually clients that drove to the creatinine of that 392 00:22:39,150 --> 00:22:42,350 tracking time. Maybe maybe lawyers took it to 393 00:22:42,360 --> 00:22:45,300 the point ones that we we know and don't love today. 394 00:22:45,310 --> 00:22:50,110 But to me, this is really kind of like a full circle on where 395 00:22:50,120 --> 00:22:54,290 law started, which is, you know, you get to know a few clients 396 00:22:54,340 --> 00:22:56,960 intimately. You become an extension of their 397 00:22:56,970 --> 00:23:01,050 business and you're able to, you know, stay sane, not track a 398 00:23:01,060 --> 00:23:04,070 billable rate. And also, you know, provide your 399 00:23:04,080 --> 00:23:08,330 expertise in in a way that, you know, really moves the needles 400 00:23:08,340 --> 00:23:09,920 for the organizations that you're supporting. 401 00:23:09,930 --> 00:23:12,950 And I tell this story because there's a lot of doom and gloom, 402 00:23:13,400 --> 00:23:16,660 especially with all of the Richard Suskin, you know, the 403 00:23:16,670 --> 00:23:18,860 end of lawyers. That was a book that I read back 404 00:23:18,870 --> 00:23:23,480 in law school. I don't buy it, betting my 405 00:23:23,490 --> 00:23:30,040 business on the world needing lawyers being way too far away 406 00:23:30,050 --> 00:23:34,040 for me to care for in a world where you don't need smart, 407 00:23:34,050 --> 00:23:38,520 compassionate, purposeful lawyers, then we're we're living 408 00:23:38,530 --> 00:23:42,120 in a crazy world and we're all on, you know, universal basic 409 00:23:42,130 --> 00:23:45,780 income or something. But I think from my perspective, 410 00:23:46,660 --> 00:23:50,370 there has never been a better time to practice law and become 411 00:23:50,380 --> 00:23:52,800 a lawyer. And maybe the final kind of 412 00:23:52,960 --> 00:23:56,250 little anecdotal share on on this point is it was my first 413 00:23:56,260 --> 00:23:58,610 day of law school. It was even before I met Mo and 414 00:23:58,860 --> 00:24:01,510 came up with the name Good lawyer was my first day. 415 00:24:01,580 --> 00:24:04,490 It was foundations class. And I'll never forget this 416 00:24:04,500 --> 00:24:07,550 professor, Professor Decost, rest in peace. 417 00:24:07,560 --> 00:24:10,430 He's gone now. But he said, you know, we're in 418 00:24:10,440 --> 00:24:11,710 the middle of class. We're all excited. 419 00:24:11,720 --> 00:24:15,580 It's first day of law school and he just like slammed his book 420 00:24:15,590 --> 00:24:17,700 down and I think it might have been the first thing he said. 421 00:24:17,740 --> 00:24:24,120 The 3D's of being a lawyer, duty, deadlines and drudgery 422 00:24:24,960 --> 00:24:27,600 duty I was OK with. I don't mind taking on 423 00:24:27,610 --> 00:24:29,110 responsibility. You know, building a business 424 00:24:29,120 --> 00:24:31,860 like good Lawyer requires a lot of duty deadlines. 425 00:24:32,560 --> 00:24:35,510 Like any good lawyer, I'm highly motivated by deadlines and can, 426 00:24:35,520 --> 00:24:37,410 you know, work work to a deadline. 427 00:24:37,420 --> 00:24:41,830 So like that one was OK too. But the drudgery, that one gave 428 00:24:41,840 --> 00:24:44,790 me pause. You know, I don't think that 429 00:24:44,800 --> 00:24:49,340 there are a lot of folks because, you know, to get into 430 00:24:49,350 --> 00:24:52,400 law school to go the whole 9 yards, you know, you, you got to 431 00:24:52,410 --> 00:24:57,280 be a smart, driven individual. And I just don't believe in, 432 00:24:57,290 --> 00:25:00,460 certainly from my experience, haven't seen a lot of those 433 00:25:00,470 --> 00:25:03,880 folks that want to be a good lawyer, want to be a lawyer 434 00:25:03,970 --> 00:25:08,660 that, you know, have an impact that they were expecting a ton 435 00:25:08,670 --> 00:25:14,480 of drudgery and dock review. And, you know, just like all of 436 00:25:14,490 --> 00:25:19,760 the things that I did as a especially early associate that 437 00:25:19,770 --> 00:25:22,190 just didn't feel like they were adding value. 438 00:25:22,470 --> 00:25:25,520 I knew I was clocking time. I knew that time was getting 439 00:25:25,530 --> 00:25:30,740 billed out to, you know, massive enterprises that you know aren't 440 00:25:30,750 --> 00:25:36,820 blinking over, you know, a fifty $100,000 bill, but I knew that I 441 00:25:36,830 --> 00:25:39,790 would never pay. You know, I think when I left 442 00:25:39,800 --> 00:25:42,980 those, the 4th year associate 500 and something an hour like 443 00:25:44,510 --> 00:25:49,360 to watch the photocopier go to go through, you know, a million 444 00:25:49,830 --> 00:25:53,780 images on a dock review or you know, go through the same 445 00:25:53,790 --> 00:25:58,840 agreement 400 times for a huge transaction, changing names that 446 00:25:58,850 --> 00:26:03,560 I knew could be automated. And I think this wave of AI is 447 00:26:03,570 --> 00:26:09,100 really pushing, pushing the envelope on the billable hour 448 00:26:09,110 --> 00:26:13,860 model, certainly client expectations and where I think 449 00:26:13,870 --> 00:26:18,190 it all leads because there's also so much unmet legal need 450 00:26:18,200 --> 00:26:19,830 inside. You know, I'm not even talking 451 00:26:19,840 --> 00:26:22,810 to the access to justice crisis that, you know, I think most 452 00:26:22,820 --> 00:26:25,270 people picture when they, when they hear that, which is, you 453 00:26:25,280 --> 00:26:28,210 know, folks that can't access legal at all for like basic 454 00:26:28,220 --> 00:26:31,950 things like getting divorced or, you know, getting in trouble or, 455 00:26:31,960 --> 00:26:35,590 or whatever it is. There's so much unmet legal 456 00:26:35,600 --> 00:26:40,510 need, which equates to legal risk or missed opportunities 457 00:26:40,880 --> 00:26:44,310 inside of businesses. And you know, if we can Fast 458 00:26:44,320 --> 00:26:46,220 forward, I mean, it's already happening, the transitions 459 00:26:46,230 --> 00:26:48,790 moving quite quickly. But if we Fast forward 5-10 460 00:26:48,800 --> 00:26:53,010 years and, you know, articling students like yourself don't 461 00:26:53,020 --> 00:26:56,890 ever have to do a dock review again, junior associates don't 462 00:26:56,900 --> 00:27:02,100 have to, you know, find the template from the right partner 463 00:27:02,190 --> 00:27:05,320 and then, like, massage it and pray that they can just, you 464 00:27:05,330 --> 00:27:12,740 know, use tools to strip away the drudgery and get to focus 465 00:27:12,750 --> 00:27:18,020 their energies on, you know, the funnest and most frankly, like, 466 00:27:18,030 --> 00:27:21,300 human parts of being a lawyer. I think that's a profession that 467 00:27:21,310 --> 00:27:24,720 retains way more people. And you know, if you think about 468 00:27:24,730 --> 00:27:29,400 doctors, you don't have a massive, I mean, some doctors 469 00:27:29,410 --> 00:27:32,640 leave the profession certainly, but you don't have a massive 470 00:27:32,650 --> 00:27:36,960 exodus of doctors from practicing the profession that 471 00:27:36,970 --> 00:27:42,430 they trained in, in law. You do it's, it's insane how 472 00:27:42,440 --> 00:27:47,090 many lawyers opt out of out of being lawyers after five years, 473 00:27:47,320 --> 00:27:50,680 10 years in the profession because this is not the life 474 00:27:50,690 --> 00:27:53,750 they want to live. And I attribute a lot of that to 475 00:27:53,800 --> 00:27:57,130 the business models and the obsession around targets and 476 00:27:57,140 --> 00:27:59,210 billables. But I also attribute that 477 00:27:59,280 --> 00:28:02,910 tremendously to the drudgery that doesn't make the 478 00:28:02,920 --> 00:28:06,920 practitioner, the professional feel important, feel valued, 479 00:28:06,930 --> 00:28:10,460 feel like they're driving, you know, something positive in a, 480 00:28:10,470 --> 00:28:13,400 in a real way that isn't just, you know, being attention to 481 00:28:13,410 --> 00:28:17,130 detail and meticulous. So if I was coming up and I was 482 00:28:17,140 --> 00:28:21,380 coming in law school, despite all of the the talk and all the 483 00:28:21,390 --> 00:28:24,230 hoohah about, you know, what the future of the profession looks 484 00:28:24,240 --> 00:28:28,120 like, I would be feeling very bullish and excited. 485 00:28:28,370 --> 00:28:32,720 And I would be, you know, really starting to play with the tools 486 00:28:32,730 --> 00:28:36,220 for sure, but also starting to think about what are, like, the 487 00:28:36,230 --> 00:28:42,690 unique human things that lawyers do that I need to get better at. 488 00:28:43,000 --> 00:28:45,850 And, you know, I think you're a great example, my friend. 489 00:28:45,860 --> 00:28:48,850 Starting a podcast, having these conversations is going to serve 490 00:28:48,860 --> 00:28:51,640 you so well as you continue to build your career. 491 00:28:51,650 --> 00:28:54,930 And yeah, I had to sort of summarize it on one point. 492 00:28:54,940 --> 00:28:56,690 I'd say the future of law is bright. 493 00:28:56,700 --> 00:28:58,960 And check us out goodlawyer.ca, my friend. 494 00:28:59,640 --> 00:29:02,510 Really appreciate you making the time to be in the podcast today. 495 00:29:02,520 --> 00:29:06,050 Brett, thank you so much for all of you listening to today's 496 00:29:06,060 --> 00:29:08,970 episode as well, and we'll see you on the next one. 497 00:29:10,120 --> 00:29:11,450 Not going my friend. Cheers.