1 00:00:07,740 --> 00:00:09,690 Welcome to your studying law Around the world. 2 00:00:09,900 --> 00:00:12,750 I'm Claudio Claus. In each episode, I talk with 3 00:00:12,760 --> 00:00:15,710 lawyers, law students, and professors from different parts 4 00:00:15,720 --> 00:00:19,990 of the world to talk about legal education, careers, and what the 5 00:00:20,000 --> 00:00:21,690 profession looks like in real life. 6 00:00:22,400 --> 00:00:25,510 We talk about the hard parts, the surprises, and the decisions 7 00:00:25,520 --> 00:00:28,640 that shaped their paths. Whether you're planning to study 8 00:00:28,650 --> 00:00:32,259 abroad, thinking about working in another legal system, or just 9 00:00:32,270 --> 00:00:36,400 curious about how law works around the world, this podcast 10 00:00:36,410 --> 00:00:39,910 is for you. This episode is sponsored by 11 00:00:39,920 --> 00:00:42,570 Contender. How are you doing on LinkedIn? 12 00:00:43,060 --> 00:00:47,410 If you're like 99% of lawyers, your answer is not great. 13 00:00:47,520 --> 00:00:50,390 Which makes sense. You learned LinkedIn as the 14 00:00:50,400 --> 00:00:54,850 place to stash a digital resume and share firm pressers, so no 15 00:00:54,860 --> 00:00:58,130 wonder your LinkedIn presence is somewhere between vanilla and 16 00:00:58,140 --> 00:01:01,060 nonexistent. But I've got good news. 17 00:01:01,410 --> 00:01:04,640 Since we all learned LinkedIn the wrong way, it's pretty easy 18 00:01:04,650 --> 00:01:07,300 to attract more positive attention for you or your 19 00:01:07,310 --> 00:01:10,460 business. Since 2022, Contender has been 20 00:01:10,470 --> 00:01:11,560 the. Premier Agency. 21 00:01:11,570 --> 00:01:15,050 Helping lawyers go from invisible train possible to 22 00:01:15,060 --> 00:01:18,100 ignore on LinkedIn. To learn more, check out 23 00:01:18,110 --> 00:01:23,620 www.contenderllc.com. Tell them Claudio sent you. 24 00:01:30,060 --> 00:01:32,970 Today we have the opportunity to hear from Hanna Donji. 25 00:01:33,160 --> 00:01:37,490 Hannah has an incredible career that has spanned from Canada to 26 00:01:37,500 --> 00:01:40,530 the US and now as an entrepreneur. 27 00:01:40,600 --> 00:01:43,100 So thank you so much for joining us today in the podcast. 28 00:01:43,110 --> 00:01:44,630 Hannah, I'm really happy to be here. 29 00:01:44,640 --> 00:01:46,000 Thank you for having me, Claudio. 30 00:01:46,060 --> 00:01:48,490 Absolutely. And to start our conversation 31 00:01:48,500 --> 00:01:51,770 today, I'd love to hear a little more about your journey from law 32 00:01:51,780 --> 00:01:55,670 school to Wall Street and then to founding your own company. 33 00:01:55,720 --> 00:01:57,710 What motivated you in each chapter? 34 00:01:57,780 --> 00:01:59,430 Yeah, that's a wonderful question. 35 00:01:59,480 --> 00:02:03,060 So when I started law school, I had every intention of ending in 36 00:02:03,070 --> 00:02:06,290 corporate law and hopefully in carving a path to either 37 00:02:06,300 --> 00:02:08,330 partnership or opening up my own law firm. 38 00:02:08,340 --> 00:02:12,190 So there was a design of wanting to make an impact at a very high 39 00:02:12,200 --> 00:02:14,870 level in the profession. But one of the things I didn't 40 00:02:14,880 --> 00:02:17,950 expect was as I was going through the legal recruitment 41 00:02:17,960 --> 00:02:20,950 process and through law school, as somebody who doesn't have 42 00:02:20,960 --> 00:02:23,990 parents in the profession and didn't have a strong network 43 00:02:24,200 --> 00:02:26,820 pre-existing in the legal profession, I found that there 44 00:02:26,830 --> 00:02:29,930 were a lot of pitfalls and traps that I didn't I was either not 45 00:02:29,940 --> 00:02:33,090 aware of or didn't have the skills training or wasn't 46 00:02:33,100 --> 00:02:35,810 equipped to deal with. This included things like what 47 00:02:35,820 --> 00:02:39,010 firms were looking for in a candidate, how to build my own 48 00:02:39,020 --> 00:02:42,860 personal brand, how to engage in networking on what to even ask 49 00:02:42,870 --> 00:02:45,940 in a coffee chat or a networking setting, and most importantly, 50 00:02:45,950 --> 00:02:49,740 what skills was I not learning in law school that the market 51 00:02:49,750 --> 00:02:51,820 actually demands? Once you begin the practice of 52 00:02:51,830 --> 00:02:54,380 law, there was not a really strong understanding of what 53 00:02:54,390 --> 00:02:57,040 that was. And so despite my incredible 54 00:02:57,050 --> 00:03:01,020 success in terms of receiving multiple offers to join 6 plus 55 00:03:01,030 --> 00:03:04,020 firms in New York, I actually didn't even know what the right 56 00:03:04,030 --> 00:03:06,800 criteria was for selecting which firm to go to. 57 00:03:06,870 --> 00:03:10,080 So I wish I had had a coach who could help me understand what my 58 00:03:10,090 --> 00:03:13,280 values were, what my personal brand is, what kind of 59 00:03:13,290 --> 00:03:17,120 environments would enable me to succeed, what type of support or 60 00:03:17,130 --> 00:03:20,410 mentorship would best suit my style of learning, growth and 61 00:03:20,420 --> 00:03:22,970 development professionally. And without anyone to kind of 62 00:03:22,980 --> 00:03:25,870 help me distill and understand what that was and how to look 63 00:03:25,880 --> 00:03:29,090 for it, I found myself playing a, a guessing game with my 64 00:03:29,100 --> 00:03:31,890 entire career around what direction to take, what 65 00:03:31,900 --> 00:03:33,890 questions to ask and how to approach it. 66 00:03:33,940 --> 00:03:36,750 And so once I actually got into law, I found that there were 67 00:03:36,760 --> 00:03:39,420 elements, and I'm sorry to say this, but there were aspects of 68 00:03:39,430 --> 00:03:41,650 the job I was poorly equipped to handle. 69 00:03:41,660 --> 00:03:44,790 One included how to build my personal networks at the firm. 70 00:03:44,840 --> 00:03:47,270 You know, it was sort of more of a haphazard approach rather than 71 00:03:47,280 --> 00:03:49,430 a strategic one. The second was how to choose a 72 00:03:49,440 --> 00:03:51,980 practice area. And let me tell you, Claudio, it 73 00:03:51,990 --> 00:03:54,850 can't just be based on the work that you do, the intrinsic 74 00:03:54,860 --> 00:03:57,810 nature of the subject matter. It also has to be based on the 75 00:03:57,820 --> 00:04:00,290 rhythm of how the work is assigned. 76 00:04:00,340 --> 00:04:03,370 So for example, mergers and acquisitions tends to have 77 00:04:03,430 --> 00:04:06,250 periods of very high highs and very low lows. 78 00:04:06,300 --> 00:04:08,370 So when a deal is on, you're full on. 79 00:04:08,380 --> 00:04:11,670 And when a deal is off, you can have like literal downtime doing 80 00:04:11,680 --> 00:04:13,840 nothing. And there are other groups like 81 00:04:13,850 --> 00:04:16,540 the tax advisory group, where things are more steady because 82 00:04:16,550 --> 00:04:19,200 they aren't necessarily as oriented toward closing a deal. 83 00:04:19,209 --> 00:04:20,910 They're more on the advisory side. 84 00:04:20,970 --> 00:04:23,590 Or certain capital markets groups can be a bit more steady. 85 00:04:23,660 --> 00:04:26,410 And one thing that they don't teach you about is that your 86 00:04:26,480 --> 00:04:30,350 physical and emotional constitution should mirror the 87 00:04:30,360 --> 00:04:32,310 rhythm of the practice group you're part of. 88 00:04:32,360 --> 00:04:35,230 So if you're somebody who needs regular sleep and routine, you 89 00:04:35,240 --> 00:04:37,740 want to be part of a practice group that's a bit more steady, 90 00:04:37,790 --> 00:04:41,540 maybe like wills and estates or, you know, working with high net 91 00:04:41,550 --> 00:04:44,780 worth individuals on a more steady schedule could be better 92 00:04:44,790 --> 00:04:46,780 for you. If you don't need a lot of sleep 93 00:04:46,790 --> 00:04:50,380 and you're a high octane, high adrenaline type of person, go 94 00:04:50,390 --> 00:04:53,140 for the emanate shop. But there were so many things 95 00:04:53,150 --> 00:04:57,760 about psychology, emotional needs, your constitution as an 96 00:04:57,770 --> 00:05:00,520 individual that I didn't really consider and that nobody really 97 00:05:00,530 --> 00:05:02,780 coached me on. So when I left corporate 98 00:05:02,790 --> 00:05:05,750 practice, I said, what can I contribute to this profession 99 00:05:05,760 --> 00:05:08,460 that gave me so much? And I basically became the coach 100 00:05:08,470 --> 00:05:10,820 I wish I'd had for law students across Canada. 101 00:05:10,830 --> 00:05:12,840 So that's how it happened. That's amazing. 102 00:05:12,850 --> 00:05:15,820 It just because you mentioned psychology, if I remember right 103 00:05:15,830 --> 00:05:18,560 you also have a background in psychology is that is. 104 00:05:18,570 --> 00:05:20,800 That that's correct. I did my undergraduate degree in 105 00:05:20,810 --> 00:05:23,590 psychology at the University of Toronto, studying everything 106 00:05:23,600 --> 00:05:26,810 from developmental psychology to cognitive science, artificial 107 00:05:26,820 --> 00:05:29,570 intelligence, and also abnormal psychology. 108 00:05:29,580 --> 00:05:33,050 So looking at all the ways that psychological compositions play 109 00:05:33,060 --> 00:05:35,610 out in the workforce, like behavioral psychology, but also 110 00:05:35,620 --> 00:05:38,750 how it can go awry. So abnormal psychology, when our 111 00:05:38,760 --> 00:05:41,870 faculties are put under too much stress, what manifests, you 112 00:05:41,880 --> 00:05:44,730 know, whether it's depression or anxiety or breakdowns and such. 113 00:05:44,780 --> 00:05:46,830 That's amazing. It sounds like you got quite the 114 00:05:46,840 --> 00:05:49,340 complete background for that by this point. 115 00:05:49,350 --> 00:05:52,160 You, you've helped so many students to land roles that are 116 00:05:52,170 --> 00:05:55,180 quite competitive both in Canada and especially in New York. 117 00:05:55,270 --> 00:05:59,070 And if you were to point out a few things that top performance 118 00:05:59,080 --> 00:06:02,650 students do differently during recruitment, what are some of 119 00:06:02,660 --> 00:06:04,240 those? Yeah, it's a great question as 120 00:06:04,250 --> 00:06:06,660 well. Most people think that there is 121 00:06:08,420 --> 00:06:11,380 that grades alone or the right work experience or the right 122 00:06:11,390 --> 00:06:14,030 extracurriculars alone will secure you a position and it's 123 00:06:14,040 --> 00:06:17,150 simply not the case. Out of the 150 plus students I 124 00:06:17,160 --> 00:06:19,890 have worked with across law schools in Canada, I have seen a 125 00:06:19,900 --> 00:06:23,370 variety of students from any number of different schools with 126 00:06:23,440 --> 00:06:26,330 a really like broad distribution of grades. 127 00:06:26,340 --> 00:06:30,090 Very diverse and divergent work experiences and extracurriculars 128 00:06:30,100 --> 00:06:32,690 land top jobs. And what really ties them all 129 00:06:32,700 --> 00:06:35,010 together is not the school they went to, it's not the grade 130 00:06:35,020 --> 00:06:37,190 point average, it's not the places they worked at. 131 00:06:37,260 --> 00:06:39,650 It's how well they can differentiate themselves as 132 00:06:39,660 --> 00:06:43,040 candidates amongst the pool of other candidates and how well 133 00:06:43,050 --> 00:06:46,240 they can isolate and articulate what I call their unique value 134 00:06:46,310 --> 00:06:49,490 proposition, which is of the experiences they've had. 135 00:06:49,500 --> 00:06:53,250 Whether it's being a janitor sweeping floors or a a waiter 136 00:06:53,300 --> 00:06:55,410 waiting tables at a restaurant or whether you were the 137 00:06:55,420 --> 00:06:59,130 compliance intern at a bank. Can you distill what value you 138 00:06:59,140 --> 00:07:02,160 bring to each of these positions that goes above and beyond what 139 00:07:02,170 --> 00:07:05,030 the average person in the same role would have otherwise done? 140 00:07:05,080 --> 00:07:07,930 Because even somebody doing janitorial work or being a 141 00:07:07,940 --> 00:07:11,110 server typically considered blue collar jobs can make a 142 00:07:11,120 --> 00:07:13,810 meaningful difference in the workplace just based on their 143 00:07:13,820 --> 00:07:17,250 positive attitude, their ability to work consistently, put up, 144 00:07:17,260 --> 00:07:19,090 put up their hand and be a team player. 145 00:07:19,100 --> 00:07:21,310 When their staffing shortages. Are they willing to work 146 00:07:21,320 --> 00:07:24,530 overtime? Can they identify inefficiencies 147 00:07:24,620 --> 00:07:28,010 in how the work is done and therefore create better systems, 148 00:07:28,020 --> 00:07:31,390 processes, and ways to operationalize the work that 149 00:07:31,400 --> 00:07:33,690 needs to get done in a faster, more efficient way? 150 00:07:33,740 --> 00:07:36,490 And can they can they innovate and train other people in the 151 00:07:36,500 --> 00:07:39,850 ways that they do things? So impact isn't about the title. 152 00:07:39,920 --> 00:07:43,410 It's about the ability to enter any situation and deliver value 153 00:07:43,420 --> 00:07:46,710 based on the opportunities, the gaps, the inefficiencies and 154 00:07:46,720 --> 00:07:48,910 make it a better place than when you entered it. 155 00:07:48,920 --> 00:07:50,790 That's incredible. That sounds amazing. 156 00:07:50,860 --> 00:07:53,930 So so I can see that really having that strong personal 157 00:07:53,940 --> 00:07:57,030 narrative plays a big role. And from what you're telling me, 158 00:07:57,040 --> 00:08:00,240 it has a lot to do with also the capacity of being able to relate 159 00:08:00,250 --> 00:08:02,220 that story. A lot of people have done 160 00:08:02,230 --> 00:08:05,740 incredible things regardless of their role, but maybe they they 161 00:08:05,810 --> 00:08:08,900 perform really poorly on telling that story and then end up 162 00:08:08,910 --> 00:08:10,580 losing opportunities because of it. 163 00:08:10,690 --> 00:08:14,540 So if I could hear a little more on on the storytelling aspect of 164 00:08:14,550 --> 00:08:17,720 it and how can students improve this way that they tell their 165 00:08:17,730 --> 00:08:21,060 stories to really highlight those specific achievements? 166 00:08:21,070 --> 00:08:23,240 Absolutely. So storytelling, you nailed it, 167 00:08:23,250 --> 00:08:26,680 is the biggest, biggest, biggest value that clients leave my 168 00:08:26,690 --> 00:08:29,120 coaching sessions with. Once we've established what 169 00:08:29,130 --> 00:08:32,380 their unique value proposition is on paper, we bring those 170 00:08:32,390 --> 00:08:35,320 stories to life in the interview setting or end in their coffee 171 00:08:35,330 --> 00:08:36,840 chats. And the way that we do it is we 172 00:08:36,850 --> 00:08:39,760 talk about something called the hero's journey architecture or 173 00:08:39,770 --> 00:08:41,370 framework. Now, the Heroes Journey 174 00:08:41,380 --> 00:08:43,260 framework really has five components. 175 00:08:43,270 --> 00:08:46,880 I'll quickly review them with you, but the first is to set the 176 00:08:46,890 --> 00:08:50,550 context. So no story is fully cemented in 177 00:08:50,560 --> 00:08:53,540 the mindset of the audience. If we don't understand who, 178 00:08:53,550 --> 00:08:56,900 what, when, where, why, how. So we've got to create at least 179 00:08:56,910 --> 00:09:00,900 an opener that helps situate somebody in put put the helps 180 00:09:00,990 --> 00:09:02,640 your audience. In other words, get into your 181 00:09:02,650 --> 00:09:05,200 shoes and be in the very moment that you're in. 182 00:09:05,310 --> 00:09:08,560 So I remember it was my second week on the job when I was a 183 00:09:08,570 --> 00:09:11,380 banking compliance intern. I walked into the office Monday 184 00:09:11,390 --> 00:09:14,660 morning, 8:00 AM, and I saw a strange look on my boss's face 185 00:09:14,670 --> 00:09:17,700 and I knew that something was wrong just based on that opener. 186 00:09:17,770 --> 00:09:20,990 In that storytelling exercise, you know what your role was. 187 00:09:21,000 --> 00:09:22,810 We know that it was a second week on the job. 188 00:09:22,820 --> 00:09:24,650 We know that you were an intern at the bank. 189 00:09:24,700 --> 00:09:26,580 We know that there was a situation that arose. 190 00:09:26,660 --> 00:09:29,660 And we always pick something juicy in a storytelling setting 191 00:09:29,720 --> 00:09:32,900 so that we can drop you in as the hero in that story. 192 00:09:32,950 --> 00:09:35,890 Step 1 is set the contact. Step 2 is to communicate what 193 00:09:35,900 --> 00:09:37,570 task you were assigned typically. 194 00:09:37,580 --> 00:09:41,990 So if you were an A lawyer and a junior associate at a firm, we 195 00:09:42,000 --> 00:09:43,870 might say, and you're interviewing for a lateral 196 00:09:43,880 --> 00:09:46,320 position because I work with students on laterals and once 197 00:09:46,330 --> 00:09:49,230 they've graduated, it might be what assignment were you given? 198 00:09:49,240 --> 00:09:52,750 What were the three obstacles that you had to overcome? 199 00:09:52,820 --> 00:09:55,310 How did you overcome them and what lessons did you learn? 200 00:09:55,380 --> 00:09:58,440 And the reason that puts you in the hero's light is because if 201 00:09:58,450 --> 00:10:01,360 you were given a straightforward task and then did the basic bare 202 00:10:01,370 --> 00:10:04,780 minimum to complete the task, there's no growth, there's no 203 00:10:04,790 --> 00:10:06,760 character development, there's no resilience. 204 00:10:06,770 --> 00:10:09,710 You have to demonstrate and there's no learning that 205 00:10:09,720 --> 00:10:11,740 happens. But when you're confronted with 206 00:10:11,750 --> 00:10:14,860 unknown obstacles and you're asked to overcome it, you 207 00:10:14,870 --> 00:10:18,060 naturally have to step into a new version of yourself that 208 00:10:18,070 --> 00:10:20,340 didn't exist before the task was assigned. 209 00:10:20,410 --> 00:10:23,290 You suddenly have to be the problem solver, the creative 210 00:10:23,300 --> 00:10:25,260 thinker. You suddenly have to be the 211 00:10:25,270 --> 00:10:29,160 person who can figure their way out-of-the-box using whatever 212 00:10:29,170 --> 00:10:32,720 critical thinking, analytical faculties, and teamwork that is 213 00:10:32,730 --> 00:10:35,280 available to you. And this is where anyone 214 00:10:35,290 --> 00:10:38,110 listening to this story will light up because there's there's 215 00:10:38,120 --> 00:10:40,610 novelty, there's suspense, there's excitement, there's a 216 00:10:40,620 --> 00:10:42,770 little bit of drama. And then when you methodically 217 00:10:42,780 --> 00:10:46,320 explain how you found your way to overcome the obstacles, you 218 00:10:46,330 --> 00:10:49,390 are no longer the person who arrived in the interview room. 219 00:10:49,540 --> 00:10:52,630 You are a new person in their eyes because they are seeing 220 00:10:52,640 --> 00:10:55,890 your progression from pre obstacle to post obstacle. 221 00:10:55,960 --> 00:10:58,570 And so there's an actual evolution that's happened even 222 00:10:58,580 --> 00:11:01,430 in the midst of an interview. And when you create that, it 223 00:11:01,440 --> 00:11:04,110 immediately warms people up. It immediately excites them. 224 00:11:04,120 --> 00:11:06,320 And they say I want you to work for me because I want to see 225 00:11:06,330 --> 00:11:09,170 what you can do when I throw something novel or a curveball 226 00:11:09,180 --> 00:11:11,070 at you. That's incredible. 227 00:11:11,080 --> 00:11:13,790 And and that makes me think of so many different things. 228 00:11:14,040 --> 00:11:17,530 I love how that, you know, the framing makes a big difference 229 00:11:17,580 --> 00:11:20,560 because really I'm, I'm a big believer that a lot of people 230 00:11:20,570 --> 00:11:23,730 who can make it into law school have incredible stories, but 231 00:11:23,740 --> 00:11:27,930 really undersell themselves because just this, you know, 232 00:11:27,940 --> 00:11:31,130 these specific skill was not developed enough of being able 233 00:11:31,140 --> 00:11:34,270 to communicate clearly and relate those stories in a way 234 00:11:34,280 --> 00:11:36,180 that makes sense. And just like you said, there 235 00:11:36,190 --> 00:11:39,040 are tools to do that. And I'm fascinated that you can 236 00:11:39,050 --> 00:11:41,400 help people to do that. And that's not just some 237 00:11:41,410 --> 00:11:44,510 something that some people have naturally and they just either 238 00:11:44,520 --> 00:11:46,010 born with it or they don't have it at all. 239 00:11:46,020 --> 00:11:49,340 So incredible to hear that and considering your background as 240 00:11:49,350 --> 00:11:52,670 well going to through Wall Street and as an entrepreneur as 241 00:11:52,680 --> 00:11:56,080 well, I can see that you've worked in in very high pressure 242 00:11:56,090 --> 00:11:58,120 environments. And then if you think about New 243 00:11:58,130 --> 00:12:00,920 York, could say the most high pressure environment in the 244 00:12:00,930 --> 00:12:02,230 world. So what? 245 00:12:02,240 --> 00:12:03,950 What are some lessons from that time? 246 00:12:03,960 --> 00:12:06,700 That's true. Shape how you coach and help 247 00:12:06,710 --> 00:12:08,100 people today. Yeah. 248 00:12:08,150 --> 00:12:10,660 It's so one thing that I didn't mention previously, which I 249 00:12:10,670 --> 00:12:14,080 think is really important here to note is that where law 250 00:12:14,090 --> 00:12:16,760 students, I think, have been conditioned over time through 251 00:12:16,770 --> 00:12:20,460 the education system and through their lives to base their sense 252 00:12:20,470 --> 00:12:23,120 of self worth on external forms of validation. 253 00:12:23,210 --> 00:12:26,540 You know the A+, the award, the grades, the praise, the 254 00:12:26,550 --> 00:12:29,040 accolades. When you get into a law firm, 255 00:12:29,050 --> 00:12:31,530 there is no pat on the back for doing your job. 256 00:12:31,540 --> 00:12:34,130 There is no praise. There's rarely a thank you 257 00:12:34,140 --> 00:12:37,330 e-mail, although some partners do that well, It's, it's just a 258 00:12:37,340 --> 00:12:40,770 given that you will rise to the highest standards, produce the 259 00:12:40,780 --> 00:12:44,230 highest quality level work and that will be your baseline. 260 00:12:44,280 --> 00:12:46,690 You don't get extra points for doing something well. 261 00:12:46,700 --> 00:12:48,750 It's an, a baseline expectation that you will. 262 00:12:48,860 --> 00:12:51,150 And this can often lead to burnout. 263 00:12:51,240 --> 00:12:54,190 It can lead to over functioning, it can lead to feelings of 264 00:12:54,200 --> 00:12:56,270 inadequacy. Like if I was doing a good job, 265 00:12:56,280 --> 00:12:58,250 why didn't I get the thank you or the praise? 266 00:12:58,260 --> 00:13:02,390 So the internal, the locus of control for one self esteem has 267 00:13:02,400 --> 00:13:05,750 to switch at some point from looking outward for your sense 268 00:13:05,760 --> 00:13:08,010 of worth and approval to turning inward. 269 00:13:08,080 --> 00:13:10,970 And if you don't do that quickly enough, especially for people 270 00:13:10,980 --> 00:13:13,950 who are more intuitive or emotionally like, whose 271 00:13:13,960 --> 00:13:16,840 intelligence is emotionally informed, like people who are 272 00:13:16,850 --> 00:13:20,130 more empathetic by nature or who are more sensitive to social and 273 00:13:20,140 --> 00:13:22,390 emotional environments around them, this can be quite 274 00:13:22,400 --> 00:13:25,050 damaging. Such that people with low levels 275 00:13:25,060 --> 00:13:27,410 of empathy will tend to outperform those with higher 276 00:13:27,420 --> 00:13:30,770 levels of empathy or those with stronger internal locus of 277 00:13:30,780 --> 00:13:33,910 control around self esteem will succeed over those whose self 278 00:13:33,920 --> 00:13:37,410 esteem is externally oriented. So you either have to not give 279 00:13:37,460 --> 00:13:40,650 any sort of like attention or care to what other people think 280 00:13:40,660 --> 00:13:42,630 of as a baseline. Or if you do care what people 281 00:13:42,640 --> 00:13:44,650 think and what they say about you, you've got to be able to 282 00:13:44,660 --> 00:13:47,740 turn that inward and give yourself the validation and the 283 00:13:47,750 --> 00:13:50,800 self esteem that you most need because it will not come from 284 00:13:50,810 --> 00:13:53,900 outside and it will erode your performance overtime if you keep 285 00:13:53,910 --> 00:13:56,780 looking for it outside of you. So if you ask me what it takes 286 00:13:56,790 --> 00:13:59,560 to be a successful high performer, it's not just about 287 00:13:59,570 --> 00:14:01,980 the intellectual capacity to get the work done well. 288 00:14:02,050 --> 00:14:04,920 That is a minimum expectation. It is can you survive 289 00:14:04,930 --> 00:14:08,820 emotionally and psychologically in an environment where praise 290 00:14:08,830 --> 00:14:11,520 and reward don't come from the outside? 291 00:14:11,570 --> 00:14:13,920 You have to be intrinsically motivated to succeed. 292 00:14:13,990 --> 00:14:17,140 And we talk in my coaching programs especially, I really 293 00:14:17,150 --> 00:14:19,500 work on confidence and self esteem with my clients at the 294 00:14:19,510 --> 00:14:22,100 tier one level. We we talk about mindset, we 295 00:14:22,110 --> 00:14:25,640 talk about their relationship with themselves, what they base 296 00:14:25,730 --> 00:14:27,890 her self esteem on. And this is one of the biggest 297 00:14:27,900 --> 00:14:31,490 values that Ioffer clients especially is how do we create 298 00:14:31,500 --> 00:14:35,310 that switch so that they don't just land the job, they're able 299 00:14:35,320 --> 00:14:39,070 to last once they get there and be happy in their roles. 300 00:14:39,140 --> 00:14:42,430 Well, that's incredible and it makes me think of how 301 00:14:42,440 --> 00:14:45,310 comprehensive that preparation for a new job can be. 302 00:14:45,320 --> 00:14:47,680 Very, very interesting to learn about that. 303 00:14:47,690 --> 00:14:50,010 Thank you for sharing it. Yeah. 304 00:14:50,020 --> 00:14:53,510 And and moving forwards to mentioning the whole idea of the 305 00:14:53,520 --> 00:14:56,630 legal recruitment that students go through, are there a few 306 00:14:56,690 --> 00:15:00,930 silent dealbreakers So to say that that you see that maybe 307 00:15:00,940 --> 00:15:05,210 makes good students, you know, miss opportunities or or maybe 308 00:15:05,220 --> 00:15:08,780 they don't realize this matter as much beyond the storytelling 309 00:15:08,790 --> 00:15:11,560 itself and that we just talked. To Claudio, you hit on my 310 00:15:11,570 --> 00:15:14,790 favorite topic, which is the unwritten rules of the game. 311 00:15:14,800 --> 00:15:17,180 Most people don't understand that there are unwritten rules 312 00:15:17,190 --> 00:15:20,190 and that your ability to understand them and abide by 313 00:15:20,200 --> 00:15:22,340 them can make or break your success in a recruitment 314 00:15:22,350 --> 00:15:24,160 process. And I'll just name two or three 315 00:15:24,170 --> 00:15:27,540 for you to give you an example. The 1st is that firms, 316 00:15:27,610 --> 00:15:30,350 particularly in the Canadian recruit, but we'll talk about 317 00:15:30,360 --> 00:15:32,580 the US as well, starting with the Canadian recruit. 318 00:15:32,590 --> 00:15:36,900 Firms look for signals very early on from candidates as to 319 00:15:36,910 --> 00:15:40,480 how interested they are in that firm over other firms. 320 00:15:40,530 --> 00:15:44,430 So how firms look for this is what order do you schedule your 321 00:15:44,440 --> 00:15:47,290 interviews in? So for example, if you schedule 322 00:15:47,340 --> 00:15:50,850 one firm at 8:00 AM on interview during interview week on day 323 00:15:50,860 --> 00:15:54,050 one, that's a very different signal than if you schedule a 324 00:15:54,060 --> 00:15:57,650 firm at 4:00 PM on day one. And sometimes it's just a matter 325 00:15:57,660 --> 00:16:01,330 of when they can fit you in. But I the signal that they are 326 00:16:01,340 --> 00:16:04,380 picking up on is you're more interested in the firms you you 327 00:16:04,390 --> 00:16:06,660 meet with first rather than the ones you meet with last. 328 00:16:06,800 --> 00:16:09,280 The second thing that is unique to the Canadian market is 329 00:16:09,290 --> 00:16:11,410 something called first choice language. 330 00:16:11,420 --> 00:16:15,300 Firms will ask students upon during the interview process to 331 00:16:15,310 --> 00:16:19,620 indicate which firm they would accept a job offer at before 332 00:16:19,630 --> 00:16:22,700 they've even gotten a job offer. By indicating that you are my 333 00:16:22,710 --> 00:16:26,680 first choice, learning when to say yes to a firm and that you 334 00:16:26,690 --> 00:16:29,590 are my first choice, and learning how to tell whether 335 00:16:29,600 --> 00:16:32,620 that signal will be reciprocated is very important. 336 00:16:32,690 --> 00:16:36,240 So the timing and who it's given to, I always liken it Claudio, 337 00:16:36,250 --> 00:16:39,760 to to taking somebody to prom. Imagine that you are going to 338 00:16:39,770 --> 00:16:41,450 prom and you have to go with a date. 339 00:16:41,460 --> 00:16:44,700 You can't go alone and there's your top five people that you 340 00:16:44,710 --> 00:16:47,500 would like to ask to prom. Your first choice person, 341 00:16:47,510 --> 00:16:49,880 however, doesn't answer your text messages. 342 00:16:49,890 --> 00:16:52,040 They don't really say hi to you in the hallway. 343 00:16:52,050 --> 00:16:54,370 They don't really sit next to you at lunch. 344 00:16:54,380 --> 00:16:57,070 They don't pay much attention to you, but they're your first 345 00:16:57,080 --> 00:16:58,730 choice. And then your third choice 346 00:16:58,800 --> 00:17:01,340 person is waiting for you at your locker every day. 347 00:17:01,350 --> 00:17:04,099 They sit next to you at lunch. They carry your books to class. 348 00:17:04,109 --> 00:17:06,900 They wave at you in the hallway. Claudio, if you could only ask 349 00:17:06,910 --> 00:17:11,040 one person to prom and you can only ask one person and they 350 00:17:11,050 --> 00:17:13,520 have to say yes in order for you to have a date, which one are 351 00:17:13,530 --> 00:17:15,349 you going to? Ask, obviously, option number 352 00:17:15,359 --> 00:17:18,119 three, Yeah. It is the exact same thing in 353 00:17:18,130 --> 00:17:21,220 the Canadian recruit. You may have one firm you love, 354 00:17:21,280 --> 00:17:24,960 but if that firm is not showing interest and sending signals 355 00:17:24,970 --> 00:17:28,760 back to you in the way and in the frequency they should, you 356 00:17:28,770 --> 00:17:31,380 should go with the firm that signaling interest to you. 357 00:17:31,450 --> 00:17:33,920 That's as highly ranked on your list as possible. 358 00:17:33,990 --> 00:17:36,380 I teach people how to look for those signals. 359 00:17:36,470 --> 00:17:38,680 OK, so that's number two. And the third thing I would say 360 00:17:38,690 --> 00:17:42,090 in terms of unwritten rules is that you can't look over eager. 361 00:17:42,160 --> 00:17:44,990 You have to understand what the firm's value in terms of 362 00:17:45,000 --> 00:17:47,810 personality because they are trying to hire groups of 363 00:17:47,820 --> 00:17:50,190 individuals as a team. They're not looking for 364 00:17:50,200 --> 00:17:53,190 individual superstars. They want a cohesive group of 365 00:17:53,200 --> 00:17:56,030 five 10/20/30 students. So you have to know what 366 00:17:56,040 --> 00:17:58,710 personality types they're looking for, what they value in 367 00:17:58,720 --> 00:18:01,510 terms of skill sets, and then how through the way that you 368 00:18:01,520 --> 00:18:04,570 present your stories, you can emulate those values. 369 00:18:04,620 --> 00:18:08,470 So it's very subtle, but we work on firm personalities and 370 00:18:08,480 --> 00:18:11,210 culture fit and this is another unwritten rule of the game. 371 00:18:11,220 --> 00:18:14,630 You have to mirror the type of candidate they want and the 372 00:18:14,640 --> 00:18:18,400 types of skills they value in a way that looks like it's organic 373 00:18:18,410 --> 00:18:20,860 and feels organic and not forced. 374 00:18:20,930 --> 00:18:25,100 And so I help build clients toward those types of approaches 375 00:18:25,110 --> 00:18:26,680 in a way that's still authentic to them. 376 00:18:26,690 --> 00:18:29,860 So if you don't have this down, you could be an amazing 377 00:18:29,870 --> 00:18:32,780 individual, but you don't fit the mold according to this 378 00:18:32,790 --> 00:18:34,900 recruitment style. Now we will say the difference 379 00:18:34,910 --> 00:18:38,040 in New York is that it tends to be much more merit based than 380 00:18:38,050 --> 00:18:40,340 culture fit based. So for my New York candidates, 381 00:18:40,350 --> 00:18:43,100 we focused less on individual personalities of the firms and 382 00:18:43,110 --> 00:18:45,420 we focused much more on transferable skills. 383 00:18:45,470 --> 00:18:49,080 So what jobs they had and what skills they got out of each job 384 00:18:49,090 --> 00:18:52,740 and highlighting those in the interview process to be as merit 385 00:18:52,750 --> 00:18:55,000 based and as performance least as possible. 386 00:18:55,080 --> 00:18:57,280 Whereas in the Canadian side of things, we're looking more at 387 00:18:57,290 --> 00:19:00,230 culture fit and personality and the unwritten rules of the game. 388 00:19:00,280 --> 00:19:03,220 Well, that's incredible. So we start with storytelling, 389 00:19:03,230 --> 00:19:06,650 then we talk about principles and and how we perceive, 390 00:19:06,660 --> 00:19:10,250 perceive rewards, and then we go into unwritten rules. 391 00:19:10,300 --> 00:19:13,590 It's no wonder that the law school edge your company has 392 00:19:13,600 --> 00:19:16,990 become a go to resource for recruitment prep. 393 00:19:17,000 --> 00:19:20,710 So moving forward, now that we've gone over these aspects, 394 00:19:20,860 --> 00:19:24,920 I'd love to hear what kind of gaps in legal education or in 395 00:19:24,930 --> 00:19:27,870 the support that people receive from their careers, office and 396 00:19:27,880 --> 00:19:30,470 so forth that you were trying to fill when you created the 397 00:19:30,480 --> 00:19:32,220 company. You did mention that you wanted 398 00:19:32,290 --> 00:19:35,510 be the coach you never had, but I'd love to hear even more on 399 00:19:35,520 --> 00:19:36,390 that. Yeah. 400 00:19:36,460 --> 00:19:39,370 So I, I give full credit to the career development offices 401 00:19:39,380 --> 00:19:42,790 across law schools in Canada for all the effort and the work that 402 00:19:42,800 --> 00:19:45,430 they put into ensuring students are equipped for the legal 403 00:19:45,440 --> 00:19:46,830 profession. But the truth of the matter, 404 00:19:46,840 --> 00:19:49,450 Claudio, is that when you have two or three hundred students in 405 00:19:49,460 --> 00:19:52,330 a law school going through a recruitment cycle and you only 406 00:19:52,340 --> 00:19:57,170 have a staff of 235 at most career officers, there's only so 407 00:19:57,180 --> 00:20:00,030 much bandwidth that can be provided to students. 408 00:20:00,140 --> 00:20:02,990 And the issue, and I'm I go back to this time and again, the 409 00:20:03,000 --> 00:20:06,550 issue is not do you have an adequate resume or an adequate 410 00:20:06,560 --> 00:20:08,470 cover letter? It's do you have written 411 00:20:08,480 --> 00:20:10,370 materials in the application process? 412 00:20:10,440 --> 00:20:13,940 And an interview strategy that's sufficiently differentiates you 413 00:20:14,010 --> 00:20:16,440 from other candidates. So if you're getting advice 414 00:20:16,450 --> 00:20:19,580 that's applicable to all law students, you might raise the 415 00:20:19,630 --> 00:20:22,200 overall level of what law students are producing. 416 00:20:22,210 --> 00:20:25,100 But you haven't told students how to differentiate themselves. 417 00:20:25,150 --> 00:20:28,010 What we do at the law school edge is I take a candidate, and 418 00:20:28,020 --> 00:20:30,760 this is the reason I work with them personally, is I listen to 419 00:20:30,770 --> 00:20:32,780 a candidate story in my intake session. 420 00:20:32,870 --> 00:20:35,940 I understand what makes them unique or special, what makes 421 00:20:35,950 --> 00:20:38,560 their story different from any other students. 422 00:20:38,570 --> 00:20:41,880 And we craft a narrative that differentiates them in a way 423 00:20:41,890 --> 00:20:44,020 that pulls them apart from the crowd. 424 00:20:44,090 --> 00:20:47,220 And so this is what's so important is you can't just be 425 00:20:47,230 --> 00:20:50,240 good when you're in a competitive process where there 426 00:20:50,250 --> 00:20:53,120 are fewer law jobs than there are students applying. 427 00:20:53,190 --> 00:20:55,860 You have to be able to be on the upper end of the bell curve. 428 00:20:55,930 --> 00:20:58,220 You have to be in the top 10%. You can't just be a good 429 00:20:58,230 --> 00:20:59,640 candidate that sits in the middle. 430 00:20:59,710 --> 00:21:02,060 You have to be on the tail end, the upper tail. 431 00:21:02,170 --> 00:21:05,040 It's a known fact at this point based on all the data that's 432 00:21:05,050 --> 00:21:07,950 come out from Ultra Virus and the University of Toronto 433 00:21:07,960 --> 00:21:10,480 student newspaper and the data they collect on the recruits 434 00:21:10,490 --> 00:21:13,140 each year, that in the 2L recruit alone, there's only 435 00:21:13,150 --> 00:21:17,900 about 750 jobs available each year compared to about 3000 436 00:21:17,910 --> 00:21:20,270 candidates across Canada applying. 437 00:21:20,330 --> 00:21:23,420 So the success rate for anyone applicant is only about 15 to 438 00:21:23,430 --> 00:21:27,390 20%, only 15 to 20% of students applying to the recruit the 439 00:21:27,400 --> 00:21:29,940 land. But at the law School edge, we 440 00:21:29,950 --> 00:21:34,140 landed 80% of clients in the 2L recruit last year, which tells 441 00:21:34,150 --> 00:21:37,460 us something very important. What we do doesn't just make 442 00:21:37,470 --> 00:21:41,900 somebody good, it makes them excellent in contrast to those 443 00:21:41,910 --> 00:21:43,750 that don't have coaching. And it's because we could 444 00:21:43,760 --> 00:21:45,840 differentiate them sufficiently from the crowd. 445 00:21:45,930 --> 00:21:48,580 Now the other thing I want to mention isn't just the success 446 00:21:48,590 --> 00:21:51,560 rates we've enjoyed, it's how often students come back and 447 00:21:51,570 --> 00:21:54,960 say, I didn't just get a job, I actually know what Ioffer now. 448 00:21:55,010 --> 00:21:57,820 I feel like I understand what the market needs from me. 449 00:21:57,860 --> 00:22:01,480 I understand how I can fill that and I have confidence in who I 450 00:22:01,490 --> 00:22:03,720 am as a person and not just a professional. 451 00:22:03,770 --> 00:22:06,620 So there's this transformation that occurs with my clients and 452 00:22:06,630 --> 00:22:09,100 I still keep in touch with so many of them two and three years 453 00:22:09,110 --> 00:22:11,860 later who come back and say thank you for all the tools you 454 00:22:11,870 --> 00:22:13,880 gave me. I know how to lead with empathy, 455 00:22:13,890 --> 00:22:16,490 but still not burnout. I know how to be authentic in 456 00:22:16,500 --> 00:22:18,720 the workplace and build meaningful relationships. 457 00:22:18,890 --> 00:22:21,940 I know how to get the work done and also advocate for myself. 458 00:22:22,010 --> 00:22:25,720 Like that brings me so much joy. So that's what I think is, is so 459 00:22:25,730 --> 00:22:29,470 amazing about it. Well, to to wrap up today's 460 00:22:29,480 --> 00:22:32,600 episode, I'd love to ask you if you could give one piece of 461 00:22:32,610 --> 00:22:36,270 advice to every law student who you know, seriously from the 462 00:22:36,280 --> 00:22:40,100 beginning could do in their education and, and get ready for 463 00:22:40,110 --> 00:22:43,400 the workforce in that sense. But also for those who are maybe 464 00:22:43,470 --> 00:22:47,170 constantly feeling like they're behind or they're bit uncertain 465 00:22:47,180 --> 00:22:50,050 and then they're here, these numbers and they get even a 466 00:22:50,060 --> 00:22:52,170 little more scared about the whole process. 467 00:22:52,180 --> 00:22:55,550 The one piece of advice is if you know that you don't have a 468 00:22:55,560 --> 00:22:58,210 mentor to guide you through this, if you know you don't come 469 00:22:58,220 --> 00:23:01,710 from multi generations of lawyers in your family who are 470 00:23:01,720 --> 00:23:03,970 networked in. If you feel like you know you're 471 00:23:03,980 --> 00:23:06,310 the first to kind of go through this or you don't know what to 472 00:23:06,320 --> 00:23:09,010 ask or who to go to, find someone who can help find a 473 00:23:09,020 --> 00:23:11,510 coach, get coaching, invest in it early. 474 00:23:11,580 --> 00:23:13,190 Because what I can tell you is this. 475 00:23:13,240 --> 00:23:16,810 I've seen people who haphazardly land jobs, don't quite know what 476 00:23:16,820 --> 00:23:19,570 the formula was, forgetting it, but somehow land it, burn out 477 00:23:19,580 --> 00:23:22,890 part way, don't know how to actually succeed, or don't get 478 00:23:22,900 --> 00:23:25,650 hired back after articling and they wonder what they did wrong. 479 00:23:25,720 --> 00:23:28,510 Landing a job is not the only thing you have to worry about. 480 00:23:28,520 --> 00:23:30,470 It's the longevity of your career. 481 00:23:30,540 --> 00:23:33,270 And so if you can get coaching earlier on in the process to 482 00:23:33,280 --> 00:23:35,490 understand what is the market actually rewarding? 483 00:23:35,600 --> 00:23:37,630 How can you position yourself accordingly? 484 00:23:37,680 --> 00:23:40,140 How can you develop the resilience and the skills not 485 00:23:40,150 --> 00:23:43,090 just to get the job, but to excel once you get there, which 486 00:23:43,100 --> 00:23:45,470 by the way, increases your earning potential over your 487 00:23:45,480 --> 00:23:47,520 lifetime? Why not make the investment at 488 00:23:47,530 --> 00:23:51,230 the beginning rather than flaming out or being asked to 489 00:23:51,240 --> 00:23:54,220 leave the firm or finding that you know your networks aren't 490 00:23:54,230 --> 00:23:56,850 strong enough to keep you there? Why wait until it becomes a 491 00:23:56,860 --> 00:23:58,990 crisis? Invest early and do it right 492 00:23:59,000 --> 00:24:01,340 from the start. So please, don't hesitate. 493 00:24:01,350 --> 00:24:04,730 Think about coaching as part of your tuition. 494 00:24:04,810 --> 00:24:07,260 It's part of the education that you need to bridge the gap 495 00:24:07,270 --> 00:24:10,140 between what schools teach you academically and what the market 496 00:24:10,150 --> 00:24:12,640 actually needs. That bridge is why the law 497 00:24:12,650 --> 00:24:14,720 school edge exists. That's amazing. 498 00:24:14,810 --> 00:24:17,320 Well, thank you so much for taking the time to share a 499 00:24:17,330 --> 00:24:20,900 little bit about your insights and and all that people can get 500 00:24:20,910 --> 00:24:23,100 value out of your business. They really appreciate that. 501 00:24:23,150 --> 00:24:24,840 Thank you so much Claudia was a pleasure to be. 502 00:24:24,850 --> 00:24:27,410 Here, thank you all for tuning into today's episode and we'll 503 00:24:27,420 --> 00:24:36,010 see you on the next one. Thanks for listening, and we'll 504 00:24:36,020 --> 00:24:39,160 see you on the next episode. This episode was sponsored by 505 00:24:39,170 --> 00:24:41,340 Contender. Check them out at 506 00:24:41,350 --> 00:24:43,440 contenderllc.com.