1 00:00:14,740 --> 00:00:16,830 Hello, everybody. Welcome to another episode of 2 00:00:16,840 --> 00:00:20,030 Studying Law around the world. Today have the opportunity to 3 00:00:20,100 --> 00:00:23,950 welcoming Gabrielle Lines. He has recently completed a 4 00:00:23,960 --> 00:00:27,370 Masters in Company and Commercial Law at the Erasmus 5 00:00:27,380 --> 00:00:30,530 University Rotterdam. And we'll be talking about 6 00:00:30,540 --> 00:00:33,000 working in the legal field in the Netherlands. 7 00:00:33,010 --> 00:00:36,390 We'll talk about his special team law and we'll talk about 8 00:00:36,400 --> 00:00:38,540 his career. Thank you so much for joining us 9 00:00:38,550 --> 00:00:41,090 today, Gabriel. At the Pleasure is mine, 10 00:00:41,100 --> 00:00:43,210 Claudio. Thank you for having me. 11 00:00:43,220 --> 00:00:45,970 It's honestly a pleasure to be speaking with your listeners 12 00:00:45,980 --> 00:00:47,670 today. Hopefully it's going to be a 13 00:00:47,680 --> 00:00:49,570 fruitful conversation. Absolutely. 14 00:00:49,580 --> 00:00:52,780 Thank you so much. And to start our conversation 15 00:00:52,790 --> 00:00:57,030 today, I'd love to hear a little bit more about your journey and 16 00:00:57,040 --> 00:01:02,160 maybe even what motivated you to do an LLM and continue pursuing 17 00:01:02,170 --> 00:01:04,830 your career in Europe. Yeah, that's actually a good 18 00:01:04,840 --> 00:01:08,890 question to also set up the conversation. 19 00:01:09,240 --> 00:01:13,730 Well, I reached a point in my career, early career in Brazil 20 00:01:13,740 --> 00:01:17,650 that I realized that I was already working with clients on 21 00:01:17,660 --> 00:01:20,050 international transactions in English. 22 00:01:20,140 --> 00:01:24,730 And I always had also this, yeah, this feeling that I wanted 23 00:01:24,740 --> 00:01:29,150 to do something internationally. So it was a very well thought 24 00:01:29,160 --> 00:01:32,790 decision to pursue my education, my master's degree abroad. 25 00:01:33,140 --> 00:01:38,950 I've selected several countries to be fair, and the Netherlands 26 00:01:38,960 --> 00:01:42,230 was one of the top ones in my case. 27 00:01:42,960 --> 00:01:46,680 And I think this goes also to Brazilian lawyers in general. 28 00:01:46,740 --> 00:01:49,190 Brazilian lawyers, when they want to pursue education abroad, 29 00:01:49,200 --> 00:01:54,410 they either go to the US for an LLM and this is usually big law 30 00:01:54,420 --> 00:01:57,990 firm lawyers, or they go to Europe and specifically to 31 00:01:58,000 --> 00:02:02,250 Portugal. In my case, I didn't have the a 32 00:02:02,260 --> 00:02:06,470 law firm backing me up for example, to do LLM in the US, 33 00:02:06,480 --> 00:02:09,419 for example, where the fees are actually quite high. 34 00:02:09,800 --> 00:02:12,960 And yeah, and I wanted also to have a more international 35 00:02:12,970 --> 00:02:15,610 environment and studying in English. 36 00:02:15,620 --> 00:02:19,710 So I've researched several countries, I've applied to many 37 00:02:19,720 --> 00:02:22,710 universities and programs, and I was very fortunate to be 38 00:02:22,900 --> 00:02:26,410 selected to a scholarship here in the Netherlands and studying 39 00:02:26,420 --> 00:02:28,490 the Erasmus University of Rotterdam. 40 00:02:28,500 --> 00:02:29,820 So I'm very, very happy for that. 41 00:02:31,450 --> 00:02:33,400 That's that. That was the beginning of my 42 00:02:33,410 --> 00:02:40,140 masters pursuit, but in a way I went before coming here. 43 00:02:40,150 --> 00:02:45,390 I had no idea that actually I could pursue a career here, so I 44 00:02:45,400 --> 00:02:48,430 came here to further my knowledge and commercial company 45 00:02:48,440 --> 00:02:50,640 law. But I've also realized that 46 00:02:50,650 --> 00:02:53,810 there were many opportunities for educated lawyers. 47 00:02:53,980 --> 00:02:56,990 There are many international companies that are based here, 48 00:02:57,000 --> 00:03:00,270 businesses that are made having the Netherlands as a key 49 00:03:00,280 --> 00:03:03,350 jurisdiction. And the working language in most 50 00:03:03,360 --> 00:03:06,910 of these cases is English. So yeah, I also became 51 00:03:06,920 --> 00:03:11,710 interested in also experimenting also the legal career here. 52 00:03:11,760 --> 00:03:14,740 And yeah, maybe that's a good introduction. 53 00:03:14,800 --> 00:03:16,120 Amazing. That's fantastic. 54 00:03:16,130 --> 00:03:17,920 Thank you so much for sharing that with us. 55 00:03:18,680 --> 00:03:21,590 And then considering that you've worked through these different 56 00:03:21,600 --> 00:03:25,570 legal systems, I'd love to know a little more about if your 57 00:03:25,740 --> 00:03:30,530 background, if you're Brazilian civil law background shaped in 58 00:03:30,540 --> 00:03:35,730 any way the way you approached your current kind of study. 59 00:03:35,800 --> 00:03:39,680 And also, did you study the area you're working with or how did 60 00:03:39,690 --> 00:03:42,680 that come about? Yes, that's actually an 61 00:03:42,690 --> 00:03:46,270 excellent question. And I must say never thought 62 00:03:46,580 --> 00:03:50,610 really truly about that. I think, well, I think 63 00:03:50,760 --> 00:03:54,040 everything, or at least the foundation of my legal knowledge 64 00:03:54,050 --> 00:03:58,580 today I owe to the Brazilian legal background, the marble 65 00:03:58,590 --> 00:04:02,030 Brazilian legal background, specifically what I had with the 66 00:04:02,180 --> 00:04:06,400 Bing, Yeah, read it from the Federal University of of Bamboo. 67 00:04:06,610 --> 00:04:10,800 So yeah, I owe most of my foundation to to this 68 00:04:10,810 --> 00:04:15,390 institution. Not sure to what extent the 69 00:04:15,400 --> 00:04:20,019 Brazilian legal content context kind of shaped what I'm doing 70 00:04:20,269 --> 00:04:24,390 right now or how I approach things right now. 71 00:04:24,500 --> 00:04:29,590 I would say first Dutch law and Brazilian law, they do share 72 00:04:29,640 --> 00:04:33,820 commonalities. They're both common civil law 73 00:04:33,830 --> 00:04:38,060 systems, so it's great. Sometimes a professor during my 74 00:04:38,070 --> 00:04:43,040 masters would point out a fact of of in Dutch law and it 75 00:04:43,050 --> 00:04:44,640 happened to be the same in Brazilian law. 76 00:04:44,690 --> 00:04:47,560 So quite it's no coincidence, right? 77 00:04:47,570 --> 00:04:51,960 Both are civil law systems and, but from legal practice and to 78 00:04:51,970 --> 00:04:57,140 be more, maybe a bit more practical, I think in, in 79 00:04:57,150 --> 00:05:01,080 Brazil, we are taught to be very proactive when we are reaching 80 00:05:01,090 --> 00:05:03,930 clients and when we are reaching, for example, local, 81 00:05:03,970 --> 00:05:08,580 local works and liaising with the, for example, the quartz. 82 00:05:09,090 --> 00:05:14,280 And also I think servicing the client in a way that, yeah, in a 83 00:05:14,290 --> 00:05:16,500 more approachable way, let's put it that way. 84 00:05:16,550 --> 00:05:21,380 So I think those are two good lessons that I took from my 85 00:05:21,430 --> 00:05:23,920 practice and I still apply today. 86 00:05:24,910 --> 00:05:29,180 But in a broader sense, I was shaped by the Brazilian legal 87 00:05:29,190 --> 00:05:31,810 context. So I cannot really detach myself 88 00:05:31,880 --> 00:05:34,680 and my practice from it. Amazing. 89 00:05:34,750 --> 00:05:40,740 And specifically talking about your LLM, from what I saw you, 90 00:05:40,790 --> 00:05:44,410 it was a research LLM. You'd have to write a thesis and 91 00:05:44,420 --> 00:05:48,230 you wrote specifically on the corporate governance. 92 00:05:48,440 --> 00:05:50,930 So I'd love to hear a little bit more about that. 93 00:05:51,000 --> 00:05:56,590 What made you choose that topic? What are some key insights that 94 00:05:56,600 --> 00:05:59,250 stayed with you from that research as well? 95 00:05:59,260 --> 00:06:01,490 Yeah, thank you for the question clause. 96 00:06:02,140 --> 00:06:05,830 Very interesting. This was a topic that came up to 97 00:06:05,840 --> 00:06:10,800 me while I was researching for a research topic. 98 00:06:12,070 --> 00:06:17,740 The first reason was that that was my favorite object in my 99 00:06:17,750 --> 00:06:23,300 masters, corporate governance. I had fantastic professors, and 100 00:06:23,310 --> 00:06:26,420 it was actually pretty clear to me that I wanted to do something 101 00:06:26,690 --> 00:06:30,680 in this field. So I started researching and I 102 00:06:30,690 --> 00:06:33,680 wanted to do something also connected to Brazilian law. 103 00:06:33,910 --> 00:06:36,080 And I've realized that the Brazil's corporate law, 104 00:06:36,090 --> 00:06:41,490 corporation law was relatively recently amended to include the 105 00:06:41,500 --> 00:06:44,390 possibility of companies adopting dual class shares. 106 00:06:44,780 --> 00:06:48,460 And this was the change pursued in 2021. 107 00:06:49,440 --> 00:06:52,530 And yeah, I wanted to understand a bit more what motivated that. 108 00:06:52,740 --> 00:06:56,780 And I came across a situation in which many jurisdictions 109 00:06:56,890 --> 00:07:01,330 actually were in a rush, were in a run to actually flexibility 110 00:07:01,340 --> 00:07:06,990 their own legal systems to allow for companies to have this 111 00:07:07,900 --> 00:07:12,620 mechanism implemented. And what was also interested to 112 00:07:12,630 --> 00:07:20,890 me that this, um, this movement was also very much guided by 113 00:07:20,940 --> 00:07:24,410 tech companies that wanted to adopt this sort of mechanism to 114 00:07:24,420 --> 00:07:27,990 ensure that their founders, for example, they keep the control 115 00:07:28,000 --> 00:07:32,490 of the company while raising capital on the public markets. 116 00:07:32,880 --> 00:07:37,740 So for example, Amazon, Facebook, Snapchat, but also our 117 00:07:37,750 --> 00:07:42,230 Brazilian champions, new bank, Paxi Guru, they all establish 118 00:07:42,240 --> 00:07:44,830 some sort of dual class share mechanisms. 119 00:07:45,040 --> 00:07:49,130 And because I was very interested and and I was also 120 00:07:49,140 --> 00:07:53,270 already working in Brazil with tech companies, I thought that 121 00:07:53,280 --> 00:07:58,090 was the perfect, the perfect match to unite Brazilian legal 122 00:07:58,100 --> 00:08:02,130 context, corporate governance, international discussions and 123 00:08:02,140 --> 00:08:05,410 tech. So maybe that was it for my 124 00:08:05,420 --> 00:08:09,230 motivation. And more broadly, I think I had 125 00:08:09,760 --> 00:08:12,450 interesting, very interesting findings specifically about my 126 00:08:12,460 --> 00:08:15,830 research topic. I think one key take away would 127 00:08:15,840 --> 00:08:20,730 be that and more general that corporations they are made of or 128 00:08:20,740 --> 00:08:25,030 they are at crossroads when they try to encompass different 129 00:08:25,040 --> 00:08:29,150 interests, the interests of shareholders, of the board, 130 00:08:29,160 --> 00:08:34,280 members of stakeholders such as workers, environmentalists, 131 00:08:34,669 --> 00:08:39,340 state right. So government and and usually 132 00:08:39,630 --> 00:08:43,900 the board members are the ones to to consider all these 133 00:08:44,470 --> 00:08:49,010 interests that sometimes collide and take decisions. 134 00:08:49,340 --> 00:08:53,230 So I think that was one of the insights that I had that 135 00:08:53,280 --> 00:08:56,710 corporations are actually very complex creature and the 136 00:08:56,720 --> 00:09:01,290 decision matrix of board members are very complex as well. 137 00:09:02,060 --> 00:09:06,310 So I think it's a broader conclusion rather than 1 138 00:09:06,360 --> 00:09:11,200 specifically attached to dual class shares, but something that 139 00:09:11,250 --> 00:09:13,830 I found it really interesting during my research as well. 140 00:09:15,100 --> 00:09:18,740 That's amazing. It also sounds like the context 141 00:09:18,750 --> 00:09:22,910 in which the economy is living and big companies and all of 142 00:09:22,920 --> 00:09:26,490 that also drives some of these legal reforms. 143 00:09:26,500 --> 00:09:30,510 So that's also pretty interesting to take a look at. 144 00:09:30,660 --> 00:09:34,470 And if I were to ask you about your time at the university, 145 00:09:34,600 --> 00:09:37,890 what are some of the things that you found the most challenging, 146 00:09:37,940 --> 00:09:41,570 most rewarding? Was it like very different than 147 00:09:41,580 --> 00:09:44,190 any other previous academic experience you had? 148 00:09:44,240 --> 00:09:46,090 Did you find a lot of commonalities? 149 00:09:46,420 --> 00:09:47,970 What are some of your thoughts on that? 150 00:09:49,590 --> 00:09:52,910 Well, it was pretty different, I must say. 151 00:09:53,440 --> 00:09:58,010 There were some challenges, but I I would say much more rewards 152 00:09:58,160 --> 00:10:01,110 in this sense. The master program in itself was 153 00:10:01,320 --> 00:10:07,110 kind of challenge challenging, also fast-paced in this sense. 154 00:10:07,420 --> 00:10:12,390 I would say one big cultural shock is was how exams took 155 00:10:12,400 --> 00:10:18,320 place in Brazil are usually. Yeah, I just took my exams in my 156 00:10:18,330 --> 00:10:21,930 own lecture room without. Yeah, only with my professor in 157 00:10:21,940 --> 00:10:25,280 it and my colleagues. And here in the Netherlands, 158 00:10:25,520 --> 00:10:30,140 there's a whole system of, for example, fraud detection, but 159 00:10:30,150 --> 00:10:34,460 also you're put in a big room with many students, not only 160 00:10:34,470 --> 00:10:38,300 your colleagues, but it could be like different, even different 161 00:10:38,310 --> 00:10:40,950 courses. You're given a computer and you 162 00:10:40,960 --> 00:10:44,870 have to type your responses. Your answer is in these 163 00:10:45,440 --> 00:10:47,270 computers given by the university. 164 00:10:47,340 --> 00:10:50,330 It really looks like for us Brazilians, looks like a 165 00:10:50,340 --> 00:10:54,370 vegetable national exam to enter the university. 166 00:10:54,420 --> 00:10:59,740 It's a more critical, I would say, and yeah, a process. 167 00:10:59,750 --> 00:11:03,920 So to me it was a shock and it can be stressing if you're not 168 00:11:03,970 --> 00:11:08,460 used to that. But definitely in terms of 169 00:11:08,470 --> 00:11:12,760 rewards, I would say interacting across cultures and having 170 00:11:12,770 --> 00:11:16,280 classmates that are from all over the world. 171 00:11:16,410 --> 00:11:21,210 I think we had in our classroom colleagues from every continent, 172 00:11:22,000 --> 00:11:27,810 and so people from the US, people from Latin American 173 00:11:27,820 --> 00:11:33,010 General, Africa, Asia, Oceania, many, many places in Europe as 174 00:11:33,020 --> 00:11:35,270 well. So it's very interesting to 175 00:11:35,280 --> 00:11:37,910 interact also with these colleagues and understand their 176 00:11:37,920 --> 00:11:44,550 legal system also. I mean, very, very fruitful as 177 00:11:44,560 --> 00:11:47,890 well. And the human connection as 178 00:11:47,900 --> 00:11:49,910 well. I, I, I made many good, good 179 00:11:49,920 --> 00:11:52,910 friends in so many different parts of the world. 180 00:11:52,920 --> 00:11:57,500 Now I have, I've promised so many friends to visit them in 181 00:11:57,540 --> 00:12:00,970 distant places on earth. So, and I have to keep my 182 00:12:00,980 --> 00:12:04,390 promise, you know, so I will be most likely traveling a lot in 183 00:12:04,400 --> 00:12:07,300 the upcoming years. So I would say this is, this was 184 00:12:07,310 --> 00:12:10,810 the most rewarding part. Of course, I mean, the, the 185 00:12:10,820 --> 00:12:14,570 program in itself was amazing and we had many different 186 00:12:14,580 --> 00:12:18,280 activities. It was very well organized. 187 00:12:18,290 --> 00:12:22,110 So I was very, very happy with my choosing the program that I 188 00:12:22,120 --> 00:12:25,110 pursued. That's amazing. 189 00:12:25,160 --> 00:12:28,610 And now that you're working in Amsterdam, how would you 190 00:12:28,620 --> 00:12:32,830 describe a little bit of, of the legal scenario, the legal work 191 00:12:32,840 --> 00:12:37,830 culture maybe compared to, you know, your experience in Brazil, 192 00:12:37,840 --> 00:12:40,700 but but also, you know, the other things that you've, you 193 00:12:40,710 --> 00:12:43,270 know, heard about all other countries Navigate that. 194 00:12:43,280 --> 00:12:46,880 And especially with this richness of, of contacts that 195 00:12:46,890 --> 00:12:49,910 you received with having friends and colleagues from all over the 196 00:12:49,920 --> 00:12:55,960 world in your program. Well, Amsterdam is really a like 197 00:12:55,970 --> 00:12:59,500 a very bursting city, right? It's, it's very interesting and 198 00:12:59,510 --> 00:13:02,620 full of activities. I would say the Netherlands in 199 00:13:02,630 --> 00:13:07,580 general is, it's a country that is very well known for its 200 00:13:07,590 --> 00:13:10,410 corporation and trade even in history, right? 201 00:13:10,420 --> 00:13:15,230 So Dutch traders were once very, very famous to because they 202 00:13:15,240 --> 00:13:21,500 control the global trade routes. The first Stock Exchange and 203 00:13:21,650 --> 00:13:25,340 public corporation was actually founded in the Netherlands. 204 00:13:25,950 --> 00:13:29,520 So it is, you can clearly see that it is a country that is 205 00:13:29,600 --> 00:13:35,750 built on trading commercial transactions and business. 206 00:13:36,060 --> 00:13:40,420 So I think this is maybe this is one part of the legal culture 207 00:13:40,430 --> 00:13:44,630 that is very relevant here. It's more more business driven 208 00:13:44,640 --> 00:13:49,230 and more it is driven by efficiency as well in this sense 209 00:13:49,240 --> 00:13:53,350 that you want to keep all the, I don't know, all the disputes and 210 00:13:53,360 --> 00:13:57,590 personal things that you have maybe against someone aside and 211 00:13:57,640 --> 00:14:00,760 just deal with the business part of transactions. 212 00:14:00,770 --> 00:14:04,390 So to say that, compare it to Brazil, this is something that 213 00:14:04,740 --> 00:14:08,860 stood out to me, but also other things. 214 00:14:09,050 --> 00:14:13,390 For example, I think here we rely more on trust than than in 215 00:14:13,400 --> 00:14:16,100 Brazil. If someone says they will 216 00:14:16,110 --> 00:14:21,180 undertake this task, just rest assured that they will give you 217 00:14:21,190 --> 00:14:25,840 an answer and that they will, you know, have their, yeah, 218 00:14:25,850 --> 00:14:27,920 their tasks completed on that time. 219 00:14:27,930 --> 00:14:31,060 So this is this is something that stood out to me as well. 220 00:14:32,470 --> 00:14:34,670 Yeah. Basically, if you, for example, 221 00:14:34,720 --> 00:14:38,950 send a correspondence and, and, and yeah, I think in Brazil, we 222 00:14:39,160 --> 00:14:41,990 usually try to certify that everything will be in the 223 00:14:42,000 --> 00:14:44,270 correct place. So you have, for example, to 224 00:14:44,280 --> 00:14:48,010 liaise with the courts workers, you have to liaise with the 225 00:14:48,020 --> 00:14:52,250 trade register. You have to, even when I was a 226 00:14:52,260 --> 00:14:56,190 legal intern, I did it a lot, going to courts and go into the 227 00:14:56,200 --> 00:14:58,870 trade register just to say like, please, please can you take a 228 00:14:58,880 --> 00:15:01,630 look at this? We filed this, I don't know, 229 00:15:01,640 --> 00:15:04,450 like 3 weeks ago and nothing happened so far. 230 00:15:04,460 --> 00:15:09,810 So can you please do your job? So sometimes this was kind of 231 00:15:09,820 --> 00:15:12,700 frustrating. And here I feel like everyone 232 00:15:12,710 --> 00:15:15,400 has its time. Everyone understands that some 233 00:15:15,410 --> 00:15:19,910 stuff take time and institutions usually work a bit better 234 00:15:20,000 --> 00:15:23,850 outside this. A small note also on work life 235 00:15:23,860 --> 00:15:27,480 balance. People here in opposition to 236 00:15:27,490 --> 00:15:31,880 Brazil, I think they value a bit more this work life balance and, 237 00:15:31,890 --> 00:15:35,760 and they try to enforce it towards colleagues, for example, 238 00:15:35,930 --> 00:15:39,560 Whereas in Brazil, if you leave, I don't know, the office before 239 00:15:39,610 --> 00:15:44,300 6:00 PM, maybe you are, you're lazy or you are not putting the 240 00:15:44,310 --> 00:15:48,190 correct amount of effort. But not all is bad from Brazil. 241 00:15:48,300 --> 00:15:50,810 Not, don't, don't, don't understand this way. 242 00:15:50,820 --> 00:15:55,170 I think for example, when it comes to trade register, we have 243 00:15:55,220 --> 00:15:58,470 in Brazil everything almost fully digital. 244 00:15:58,580 --> 00:16:01,670 It's pretty more modern. And here, for example, we still 245 00:16:01,680 --> 00:16:06,100 exchange letters with the trade register, physical letters. 246 00:16:06,820 --> 00:16:10,630 And so not everything is on the bad side for Brazil. 247 00:16:10,700 --> 00:16:12,910 Absolutely. I'm glad you touched on work 248 00:16:12,920 --> 00:16:16,380 life balance because I was very curious about that. 249 00:16:16,460 --> 00:16:19,860 And if I may ask, I don't know if you've experienced this just 250 00:16:19,870 --> 00:16:25,460 yet, but do lawyers usually have like a vacation scheme because 251 00:16:25,470 --> 00:16:29,210 they know most of the world doesn't have a like, you know, 252 00:16:29,220 --> 00:16:31,800 we have our courts closing at the end of the year in Brazil. 253 00:16:31,810 --> 00:16:35,230 And with that, usually, you know, we, we get that vacation 254 00:16:35,240 --> 00:16:38,260 at the end of the year. How how does that look like in 255 00:16:38,270 --> 00:16:41,240 in the Netherlands most generally speaking? 256 00:16:41,250 --> 00:16:47,440 Well, also it varies depending on where you work or which line 257 00:16:47,450 --> 00:16:49,920 of the legal sector you're working on. 258 00:16:50,730 --> 00:16:55,460 If you work on companies, you most certainly have some 259 00:16:55,470 --> 00:17:01,230 guaranteed holidays paid and also other sorts of special 260 00:17:01,240 --> 00:17:04,040 leaves that you can take as well. 261 00:17:04,130 --> 00:17:07,720 So it varies. Usually it's not nothing below 262 00:17:07,730 --> 00:17:12,380 20 days a year and you don't do not count weekends for example 263 00:17:12,430 --> 00:17:15,700 in this map. So if you want to take a full 264 00:17:15,710 --> 00:17:19,270 week is going to be only 5 days and the and the weekends are 265 00:17:19,280 --> 00:17:22,089 already Yeah, it does not count. This is different than in 266 00:17:22,099 --> 00:17:24,890 Brazil, for example. Of course, if you work in a law 267 00:17:24,900 --> 00:17:30,650 firm, this is usually a bit more difficult because of the how in 268 00:17:30,660 --> 00:17:34,830 general and and throughout the word this law firm relationship 269 00:17:34,840 --> 00:17:37,970 associate relationship, how they work. 270 00:17:38,440 --> 00:17:43,140 But usually people do have holidays, paid holidays, and 271 00:17:43,150 --> 00:17:48,730 they do have some good perks to be honest on working in the 272 00:17:48,740 --> 00:17:51,310 Netherlands and in the legal field specific. 273 00:17:51,320 --> 00:17:53,110 As well. Fantastic. 274 00:17:53,440 --> 00:17:58,260 If I may ask you now about looking back at your transition, 275 00:17:59,650 --> 00:18:03,310 you know, practicing and studying in Brazil and, and 276 00:18:03,320 --> 00:18:06,950 thinking back to your time as a student a couple years back, 277 00:18:08,530 --> 00:18:12,740 what would you wish that more students knew about global legal 278 00:18:12,750 --> 00:18:14,940 careers? I'm, I'm thinking here that 279 00:18:14,950 --> 00:18:19,960 while you did like a very well thought out decision, maybe that 280 00:18:19,970 --> 00:18:23,740 didn't start on your first day of class in law school, right? 281 00:18:23,810 --> 00:18:25,400 That you developed that a lot more. 282 00:18:25,410 --> 00:18:29,000 So what maybe you wish people would know, or what would you 283 00:18:29,010 --> 00:18:31,520 want students to be inspired to learn about? 284 00:18:32,360 --> 00:18:37,130 Well, I would wish that they knew that global legal careers 285 00:18:37,140 --> 00:18:41,570 actually exist. They do exist and sometimes it's 286 00:18:41,720 --> 00:18:45,530 difficult to, to understand this. 287 00:18:45,770 --> 00:18:50,320 Even even for me, I, I, I was already on the path of coming 288 00:18:50,330 --> 00:18:53,140 here. I came here for masters and even 289 00:18:53,150 --> 00:18:57,080 here I was not that much aware that I could pursue a career 290 00:18:57,090 --> 00:19:00,540 here. So the lack of information that 291 00:19:00,550 --> 00:19:06,700 we currently have, I think this is something that we need to 292 00:19:06,710 --> 00:19:08,220 change. And I think, for example, your 293 00:19:08,230 --> 00:19:13,160 podcast does a great job in sending this message to the to 294 00:19:13,170 --> 00:19:17,040 the world and, and to, for example, Brazilian students to 295 00:19:17,050 --> 00:19:19,470 yeah, actually understand that legal careers exist. 296 00:19:21,040 --> 00:19:24,090 I always thought I grew up thinking that if I chose law as 297 00:19:24,100 --> 00:19:28,550 a career, I would be bound to the country that I graduated in. 298 00:19:28,940 --> 00:19:31,850 And although I must say this is true. 299 00:19:31,860 --> 00:19:36,330 And the majority of the legal practitioners, you don't need to 300 00:19:36,340 --> 00:19:39,030 be the, you can be the exception. 301 00:19:39,120 --> 00:19:41,490 So you can actually pursue global or careers. 302 00:19:41,500 --> 00:19:46,310 There is demand for lawyers educated in in foreign legal 303 00:19:46,320 --> 00:19:50,210 systems across the globe, and you can benefit from it just for 304 00:19:50,220 --> 00:19:52,390 a. Quick side note here, I don't 305 00:19:52,400 --> 00:19:56,460 know if I've ever said this in the podcast before, but I got 306 00:19:56,470 --> 00:20:00,910 the chance to start law school and then I took an opportunity 307 00:20:00,920 --> 00:20:04,490 to spend some time in the States and then came back to Brazil to 308 00:20:04,500 --> 00:20:07,170 law school. And right after that experience, 309 00:20:07,180 --> 00:20:10,090 I was super excited about doing something international. 310 00:20:10,280 --> 00:20:13,940 So I went to the demo of law in my university and, and I was 311 00:20:13,950 --> 00:20:17,530 talking to her and now and she had a masters from abroad as 312 00:20:17,540 --> 00:20:18,950 well. So I thought, you know, there's 313 00:20:18,960 --> 00:20:23,060 no better person to to chat. And actually, she told me 314 00:20:23,070 --> 00:20:25,250 something along the lines of, Hey, if you want to do something 315 00:20:25,260 --> 00:20:28,330 international, go do engineering, go do something 316 00:20:28,340 --> 00:20:30,720 else like law. It's not a good like 317 00:20:30,730 --> 00:20:33,300 international career for you to study. 318 00:20:33,310 --> 00:20:36,290 And, and honestly that, you know, put me down for a little 319 00:20:36,300 --> 00:20:38,790 bit. I was so fortunate that, you 320 00:20:38,800 --> 00:20:41,880 know, during the pandemic, so many people were online and I 321 00:20:41,890 --> 00:20:44,760 got you here, so many people that got, you know, successful 322 00:20:44,770 --> 00:20:47,420 legal careers abroad. And definitely that was, you 323 00:20:47,430 --> 00:20:51,640 know, a big incentive. And, and kind of like, because 324 00:20:51,650 --> 00:20:55,570 of that, I also end up doing international relations as an 325 00:20:55,580 --> 00:21:01,020 undergrad because I was a little bit afraid that I wouldn't be 326 00:21:01,030 --> 00:21:02,640 able to do anything international. 327 00:21:03,370 --> 00:21:08,200 But I'm glad I, I, I, you know, just continued on with law and 328 00:21:08,410 --> 00:21:11,580 it's definitely being an amazing experience. 329 00:21:11,590 --> 00:21:15,690 And I'm glad that you know, I'm hearing out there people with 330 00:21:15,700 --> 00:21:19,030 successful experiences each time more so thank you so much for 331 00:21:19,100 --> 00:21:21,510 for sharing yours. No, thank you. 332 00:21:21,520 --> 00:21:23,250 And, and it's actually a great example. 333 00:21:23,260 --> 00:21:27,210 And yeah, how sometimes we don't know about this, right? 334 00:21:28,510 --> 00:21:30,670 Yeah, I think you, you do an amazing job. 335 00:21:30,680 --> 00:21:34,660 And I think you took this example and and now you, I think 336 00:21:34,670 --> 00:21:39,280 you actually created a very interesting way of sharing this 337 00:21:39,290 --> 00:21:42,660 knowledge too with everyone. So Congrats to you as well. 338 00:21:43,580 --> 00:21:45,850 Thank you so much. Yeah, I want to make sure that 339 00:21:45,860 --> 00:21:48,940 nobody else leaves the Deans office thinking that they, if 340 00:21:48,950 --> 00:21:51,330 they choose law, they can never leave the country. 341 00:21:51,400 --> 00:21:55,790 Yeah, amazing. Well, as we come to the end of 342 00:21:55,800 --> 00:22:02,570 our conversation today, what do you think about your values and 343 00:22:02,580 --> 00:22:06,970 careers, career goals? And how do you stay intentional 344 00:22:06,980 --> 00:22:10,510 about the work you choose and the impact you want to have? 345 00:22:10,570 --> 00:22:13,590 And, and let me tell you just a little back to the this 346 00:22:13,600 --> 00:22:16,750 question. A few of the previous podcast 347 00:22:16,760 --> 00:22:20,990 episodes, I've spoken with people who talked, who told me 348 00:22:21,000 --> 00:22:25,270 about their career goals, who told me about some hard 349 00:22:25,280 --> 00:22:28,090 questions that they thought through through their careers. 350 00:22:28,100 --> 00:22:31,360 And I'm just so excited to know that, you know, a lot of people 351 00:22:31,370 --> 00:22:34,750 have thought about those and, and I just never realized. 352 00:22:34,800 --> 00:22:37,710 So I'd, I'd love to hear a little bit about, you know, your 353 00:22:37,720 --> 00:22:41,770 thoughts on that. That's, that's a good question, 354 00:22:41,850 --> 00:22:46,490 Claudio. And to be honest, I think yeah, 355 00:22:46,500 --> 00:22:49,330 it's a difficult one. I I would say having a cup of 356 00:22:49,340 --> 00:22:52,790 coffee. It's is my preferred way of 357 00:22:52,800 --> 00:22:57,400 staying intentional and not sure if that's the most polished 358 00:22:57,410 --> 00:23:02,200 advice. I I really appreciate when, 359 00:23:02,670 --> 00:23:05,840 yeah, when it comes to career decisions and personal 360 00:23:05,850 --> 00:23:10,440 decisions, I think you have to spare some time and reflect on 361 00:23:10,450 --> 00:23:14,100 what you want to achieve both professionally and personally, 362 00:23:14,170 --> 00:23:16,480 and you cannot detach one from the other. 363 00:23:16,530 --> 00:23:22,500 Sometimes people try to do so. I think if you have a cup of 364 00:23:22,510 --> 00:23:29,330 coffee with yourself and actually reflect on this or 365 00:23:29,340 --> 00:23:32,900 Paffen where you want to move forward, I think this is at 366 00:23:32,910 --> 00:23:34,830 least this is the the way that works for me. 367 00:23:34,840 --> 00:23:38,230 Or for example, listening to other peoples experience. 368 00:23:38,280 --> 00:23:42,230 This is also very helpful when again, your podcast comes very 369 00:23:42,420 --> 00:23:45,590 in hand for that. Maybe a good advice to people is 370 00:23:45,600 --> 00:23:51,410 listening to your podcast with a cup of coffee and while you're 371 00:23:51,420 --> 00:23:56,130 listening Claudio talk and also his amazing guests, think about 372 00:23:56,140 --> 00:23:59,210 your own personal and professional pursuits. 373 00:23:59,680 --> 00:24:04,150 I think that's a good advice. But seriously, I think 374 00:24:05,260 --> 00:24:10,310 intentional, it's more a matter of actually periodically 375 00:24:10,500 --> 00:24:13,190 rethinking where are you are going? 376 00:24:13,200 --> 00:24:17,020 Where do you want to be? And yeah, just not be 377 00:24:17,700 --> 00:24:20,910 comfortable with all the time. You know, we live in a in a 378 00:24:20,960 --> 00:24:23,890 society that demands a lot from us, for sure. 379 00:24:24,240 --> 00:24:29,530 But at the same time, I think the we only have one life and if 380 00:24:29,540 --> 00:24:32,330 you we want to accomplish some stuff, if we want to do 381 00:24:32,340 --> 00:24:35,710 something, some stuff with our lives, both professionally and 382 00:24:35,720 --> 00:24:38,720 personally, yeah, why not stay intentional? 383 00:24:38,730 --> 00:24:40,340 You're amazing. Thank you so much for sharing 384 00:24:40,350 --> 00:24:43,930 that and thank you for taking the time to sharing your 385 00:24:43,940 --> 00:24:46,830 experience here in the podcast. I'm sure it will inspire many 386 00:24:46,840 --> 00:24:50,010 other people. So thank you guys who listen to 387 00:24:50,020 --> 00:24:52,380 this podcast today. Appreciate your time and we'll 388 00:24:52,390 --> 00:24:53,530 see you on the next episode.