1 00:00:12,880 --> 00:00:16,450 Welcome to studying law around the world I'm Claudio Claus in 2 00:00:16,460 --> 00:00:19,350 each episode, I talk with lawyers, law students, and 3 00:00:19,360 --> 00:00:22,750 professors from different parts of the world to talk about legal 4 00:00:22,760 --> 00:00:26,040 education, careers, and what the profession looks like in real 5 00:00:26,050 --> 00:00:28,980 life we talk about the hard parts, the surprises, and the 6 00:00:28,990 --> 00:00:31,880 decisions that shaped their paths whether you're planning. 7 00:00:31,890 --> 00:00:34,010 To study abroad. Thinking about working in 8 00:00:34,020 --> 00:00:37,360 another legal system or just curious about how law works 9 00:00:37,460 --> 00:00:40,590 around the world? This podcast is for you. 10 00:00:43,010 --> 00:00:45,860 Today I have the opportunity to interview Anna Dungy. 11 00:00:45,870 --> 00:00:50,000 She's the founder and CEO of Cognito Trex Inc and enterprise 12 00:00:50,010 --> 00:00:53,460 learning infrastructure company focused on building structured 13 00:00:53,510 --> 00:00:56,740 Rd. based workforce readiness systems for complex 14 00:00:56,750 --> 00:00:59,060 organizations. She began her career in 15 00:00:59,070 --> 00:01:02,820 international law and diplomacy, training and practicing at 16 00:01:02,830 --> 00:01:05,680 leading global law firms including Sullivan and Cromwell 17 00:01:05,750 --> 00:01:09,140 and Hogan Lovells across New York, London and Dubai. 18 00:01:09,230 --> 00:01:12,980 Working with all these elite institutions have shaped her 19 00:01:12,990 --> 00:01:16,980 understanding of how performance is engineered resistance, not 20 00:01:16,990 --> 00:01:19,410 talented alone. Thank you so much for making the 21 00:01:19,420 --> 00:01:22,480 time to be here with us today. Thank you so much for having me, 22 00:01:22,490 --> 00:01:23,360 Claudia. I appreciate. 23 00:01:23,370 --> 00:01:26,590 It and you start off our podcast, I'd love for you to 24 00:01:26,640 --> 00:01:29,370 tell us a little more about your story, especially on the point 25 00:01:29,380 --> 00:01:32,850 that you trained and practiced that firms across New York, 26 00:01:32,860 --> 00:01:35,670 London, Dubai. I wanted to ask you, what did 27 00:01:35,680 --> 00:01:39,290 these environments teach you about performance pressure? 28 00:01:39,330 --> 00:01:40,910 Yeah, it's a it's a great question. 29 00:01:41,060 --> 00:01:44,690 Working in New York, London and Dubai taught me a lot about 30 00:01:44,700 --> 00:01:47,510 elite environments and it was really clear that they don't run 31 00:01:47,520 --> 00:01:50,190 alone on talent. Structure matters. 32 00:01:50,200 --> 00:01:53,130 So critically to performance. Everyone is intelligent, 33 00:01:53,140 --> 00:01:55,800 everyone is ambitious. The differentiator really isn't 34 00:01:55,810 --> 00:01:59,490 diet hue, it's whether the system around an individual 35 00:01:59,500 --> 00:02:02,390 reinforces judgment, prioritization and 36 00:02:02,400 --> 00:02:03,980 accountability. So in high pressure 37 00:02:03,990 --> 00:02:06,670 environments, you can see very quickly when expectations are 38 00:02:06,680 --> 00:02:10,500 clear, feedback loops are tight, and standards are nonnegotiable. 39 00:02:10,550 --> 00:02:13,860 When that happens, performance rises because expectations are 40 00:02:13,870 --> 00:02:15,800 clear. But when those elements are 41 00:02:15,810 --> 00:02:19,160 inconsistent, even really brilliant people will struggle 42 00:02:19,170 --> 00:02:21,500 to perform. And that observation stayed with 43 00:02:21,510 --> 00:02:24,820 me, and it shifted how I think about professional growth, not 44 00:02:24,830 --> 00:02:28,320 as a matter of motivation, but as a matter of system design. 45 00:02:28,380 --> 00:02:30,800 That's so interesting. It makes me think a lot about 46 00:02:30,890 --> 00:02:34,350 the different opportunities that I have work wise so far. 47 00:02:34,360 --> 00:02:37,940 I had the opportunity to start my career in a, you know, Land 48 00:02:37,950 --> 00:02:41,200 Registry office where where systems were in place, where it 49 00:02:41,210 --> 00:02:45,600 had a very senior, not only age, but really in deep work 50 00:02:45,610 --> 00:02:49,200 experience and expertise. Boss and and you really shaped 51 00:02:49,210 --> 00:02:52,320 many, many things a bunch of today of how I work on the 52 00:02:52,330 --> 00:02:54,920 things I do, and I think that that plays such a big role. 53 00:02:54,930 --> 00:02:59,230 I I really love you mentioning that and going forward INVISA 54 00:02:59,240 --> 00:03:02,030 leading situations. As you said, there's a lot of 55 00:03:02,040 --> 00:03:05,650 talent, but I'm, I'm curious specifically in the legal field, 56 00:03:05,660 --> 00:03:08,270 in your experience, what separates those lawyers who 57 00:03:08,280 --> 00:03:11,760 builds, you know, durable compounding careers from those 58 00:03:11,770 --> 00:03:13,810 who plateau and burnout? Yeah. 59 00:03:13,820 --> 00:03:16,810 Lawyers who sustain performance over decades really understand 60 00:03:16,820 --> 00:03:19,050 this concept you referred to called compounding. 61 00:03:19,060 --> 00:03:22,450 They don't just complete tasks, they build judgment, they build 62 00:03:22,460 --> 00:03:25,190 expertise and they build credibility overtime. 63 00:03:25,270 --> 00:03:27,890 And they do this by refining decision making. 64 00:03:27,960 --> 00:03:30,370 They seek environments specifically where feedback is 65 00:03:30,380 --> 00:03:33,130 structured and not random. It's through that iterative 66 00:03:33,140 --> 00:03:36,190 process that they develop what works, what doesn't, and they 67 00:03:36,290 --> 00:03:38,680 find their approach to specific dynamics. 68 00:03:38,730 --> 00:03:41,180 Plateauing, on the other hand, often happens when learning 69 00:03:41,190 --> 00:03:44,720 becomes only episodic. So mistakes get replicated 70 00:03:44,730 --> 00:03:46,780 without feedback, without corrections. 71 00:03:46,850 --> 00:03:49,960 And then when you get training, only then do you realize perhaps 72 00:03:49,970 --> 00:03:52,720 you were doing something wrong, but by that point the muscle 73 00:03:52,950 --> 00:03:55,980 around the incorrect procedures or the errors has already been 74 00:03:55,990 --> 00:03:58,440 reinforced. Now durable careers are really 75 00:03:58,450 --> 00:04:01,160 built when learning is embedded into the workflow on a 76 00:04:01,170 --> 00:04:04,660 consistent basis, when every deal, every dispute, every 77 00:04:04,670 --> 00:04:07,640 client interaction becomes part of structured development. 78 00:04:07,690 --> 00:04:10,560 And that insight really became central to how I think about 79 00:04:10,570 --> 00:04:13,950 organizations more broadly. Training has to accompany the 80 00:04:13,960 --> 00:04:17,279 lived daily experience. It cannot be something that 81 00:04:17,290 --> 00:04:19,980 feels separate from the work that you accomplish. 82 00:04:20,100 --> 00:04:23,390 And if you can embed training in the day-to-day work, you 83 00:04:23,400 --> 00:04:27,090 actually improve exponentially the performance of otherwise 84 00:04:27,100 --> 00:04:28,930 very hard working, smart lawyers. 85 00:04:29,020 --> 00:04:31,710 That behavior changes more quickly and sustainably. 86 00:04:31,770 --> 00:04:33,710 Amazing. I really appreciate you sharing 87 00:04:33,720 --> 00:04:36,990 those and, and I want to dive a little bit more and learn a 88 00:04:37,060 --> 00:04:40,250 little more about you. So I, I saw here that you later 89 00:04:40,260 --> 00:04:43,420 moved into executive coaching and we've spoke about this in 90 00:04:43,430 --> 00:04:46,110 the podcast before. So I wanted to ask you a little 91 00:04:46,120 --> 00:04:49,530 more, you know, how did you or, or what did you begin to notice 92 00:04:49,540 --> 00:04:53,110 about leadership performance that those traditional legal 93 00:04:53,120 --> 00:04:57,030 training environments did not really teach it explicitly 94 00:04:57,040 --> 00:04:59,390 especially? Yeah, so an executive coach and 95 00:04:59,400 --> 00:05:02,490 I got this really rare opportunity to get first hand 96 00:05:02,500 --> 00:05:05,760 insight into what really high performers in the legal 97 00:05:05,770 --> 00:05:08,480 profession struggle with and high performers in general 98 00:05:08,490 --> 00:05:10,200 struggle with in corporate environments. 99 00:05:10,210 --> 00:05:12,080 And what I found really surprised me. 100 00:05:12,130 --> 00:05:15,540 High performers, as we know, rarely lack intelligence and 101 00:05:15,550 --> 00:05:18,680 they rarely lack drive. What they lack more often than 102 00:05:18,690 --> 00:05:21,200 not when they're hitting roadblocks is structural 103 00:05:21,210 --> 00:05:23,680 reinforcement. So in law firms especially, 104 00:05:23,690 --> 00:05:26,940 development is often assumed to happen through exposure, who 105 00:05:26,950 --> 00:05:30,320 just get enough reps in on the deal, you know, sit in on enough 106 00:05:30,330 --> 00:05:31,960 client meetings and you'll figure it out. 107 00:05:32,030 --> 00:05:35,310 You work on sophisticated matters, you watch partners, you 108 00:05:35,320 --> 00:05:38,900 absorb through osmosis. And that can work, but only up 109 00:05:38,910 --> 00:05:43,040 to a point, as I'm sure you've seen in your own work and with 110 00:05:43,050 --> 00:05:47,630 other lawyers you've spoken to. Exposure itself in this away is 111 00:05:47,640 --> 00:05:51,210 very inconsistent. Feedback is uneven, expectations 112 00:05:51,220 --> 00:05:54,350 are implicit rather than articulated, and learning seems 113 00:05:54,360 --> 00:05:57,110 to become dependent on which partner you happen to work with. 114 00:05:57,280 --> 00:06:00,740 In other words, your growth and your professional development 115 00:06:00,750 --> 00:06:04,050 over time is left to chance rather than systematically 116 00:06:04,060 --> 00:06:06,530 reinforced. And that creates variability 117 00:06:06,540 --> 00:06:09,390 over time and often in ways that are quite biased. 118 00:06:09,440 --> 00:06:12,610 So I began noticing over time through my coaching practice 119 00:06:12,620 --> 00:06:15,730 that firms and enterprises rely heavily on individual 120 00:06:15,740 --> 00:06:18,970 excellence, whether that's partner brilliance or senior 121 00:06:18,980 --> 00:06:21,840 leadership instinct. But they often under invest in 122 00:06:21,850 --> 00:06:25,370 the architecture that makes excellence reproducible at every 123 00:06:25,380 --> 00:06:29,050 level across all different types of employees or learners. 124 00:06:29,060 --> 00:06:31,950 And this insight in particular, is what informed cognitive 125 00:06:31,960 --> 00:06:35,160 crafts how do we create standardized, recurring, 126 00:06:35,170 --> 00:06:38,760 reproducible forms of excellence across the board at each level 127 00:06:38,850 --> 00:06:41,580 of seniority within enterprises or law firms? 128 00:06:41,630 --> 00:06:44,500 That's quite, quite interesting. Was there a moment when you 129 00:06:44,510 --> 00:06:47,460 realized that advising individuals wasn't enough 130 00:06:47,470 --> 00:06:49,880 considering that you just mentioned is, you know, there's 131 00:06:49,890 --> 00:06:53,380 this structure really makes such a big difference. 132 00:06:53,430 --> 00:06:56,650 And Speaking of that, you know, how did that make you once you 133 00:06:56,660 --> 00:06:58,200 build something larger? Yeah. 134 00:06:58,210 --> 00:07:00,720 I mean, I love working with my clients. 135 00:07:00,730 --> 00:07:02,640 I really enjoyed the one to one aspect. 136 00:07:02,650 --> 00:07:05,680 I think there's something incredibly compelling from a 137 00:07:05,690 --> 00:07:09,820 report building perspective and deeply satisfying, but it's not 138 00:07:09,830 --> 00:07:12,020 scalable. The kind of changes I wanted to 139 00:07:12,030 --> 00:07:15,300 make, you can refine the individual as much as possible. 140 00:07:15,310 --> 00:07:18,000 You can give them tools, build confidence, build skill sets, 141 00:07:18,010 --> 00:07:20,680 but they're always going to be operating within structures. 142 00:07:20,870 --> 00:07:23,630 And if the those structures don't change, there's only so 143 00:07:23,640 --> 00:07:26,060 much in individuals own efforts can produce. 144 00:07:26,110 --> 00:07:29,600 So at some point I realized that advising individuals inside 145 00:07:29,610 --> 00:07:32,660 fragile systems has limits. You can coach someone to be 146 00:07:32,670 --> 00:07:35,020 resilient, you can sharpen their judgment, but if the 147 00:07:35,030 --> 00:07:38,200 organization itself lacks structured capability 148 00:07:38,210 --> 00:07:40,740 development, then the friction will continue. 149 00:07:40,830 --> 00:07:43,360 So I became more interested overtime in designing 150 00:07:43,370 --> 00:07:45,940 environments rather than advising simply within them. 151 00:07:46,030 --> 00:07:48,980 And so Cognitive Trex was born from that shift, moving from 152 00:07:48,990 --> 00:07:52,080 individual performance optimization to institutional 153 00:07:52,090 --> 00:07:54,950 capability architecture. And we're still exploring, since 154 00:07:54,960 --> 00:07:57,540 we're early stages, we're still very much exploring what that 155 00:07:57,550 --> 00:07:59,740 looks like in law firms in particular. 156 00:07:59,820 --> 00:08:02,150 Amazing. Sounds very, very exciting. 157 00:08:02,160 --> 00:08:06,290 I think that some of the articles I've read before they, 158 00:08:06,360 --> 00:08:09,210 they have some of the things that you say that describe 159 00:08:09,220 --> 00:08:12,510 learning as an infrastructure rather than content. 160 00:08:12,520 --> 00:08:15,410 I really appreciated something that you wrote about like micro 161 00:08:15,420 --> 00:08:17,330 learning and how that plays the role. 162 00:08:17,340 --> 00:08:20,940 But it's not always the best way for learning everything. 163 00:08:21,240 --> 00:08:24,220 And thinking about the context of law firms or legal 164 00:08:24,230 --> 00:08:28,140 departments, what does that distinction mean to you or or in 165 00:08:28,150 --> 00:08:30,250 this context that you found yourself working? 166 00:08:30,300 --> 00:08:32,309 Yeah, learning is infrastructure. 167 00:08:32,320 --> 00:08:34,909 That's such an important term. And in many organizations, 168 00:08:34,919 --> 00:08:37,530 you're absolutely right, learning is treated as 169 00:08:37,539 --> 00:08:39,590 programming. So that looks like courses, 170 00:08:39,780 --> 00:08:42,750 workshops, compliance modules, some of which might be micro 171 00:08:42,760 --> 00:08:46,030 learning in nature, others may be long 2 hour video 172 00:08:46,040 --> 00:08:48,770 presentations you sit down and watch in one go. 173 00:08:48,820 --> 00:08:51,830 But infrastructure is different from programming. 174 00:08:51,900 --> 00:08:55,690 Infrastructure means capability is sequenced, so you build on 175 00:08:55,700 --> 00:08:58,630 skill one and then you add skill 2, skill 3. 176 00:08:58,640 --> 00:09:01,860 So it becomes a sort of compounding series of skills 177 00:09:01,870 --> 00:09:03,990 that increase your performance capacity. 178 00:09:04,220 --> 00:09:07,530 Infrastructure also means that reinforcement is deliberate. 179 00:09:07,580 --> 00:09:09,820 You don't get exposure once and then you're done. 180 00:09:09,880 --> 00:09:13,590 You get reinforcement over time so that more of the information 181 00:09:13,600 --> 00:09:17,030 is really starts to sink in and gets applied to your daily 182 00:09:17,040 --> 00:09:20,190 exposure. Knowledge is also something that 183 00:09:20,200 --> 00:09:22,610 in infrastructure will survive turnover. 184 00:09:22,660 --> 00:09:25,530 We often see, especially in law firms, that there's one person 185 00:09:25,600 --> 00:09:27,800 who knows how to do all the deals or has had a lot of 186 00:09:27,810 --> 00:09:30,830 exposure to certain client. They leave and suddenly the the 187 00:09:30,840 --> 00:09:34,220 group is panicked. Knowledge is about creating the 188 00:09:34,230 --> 00:09:38,640 infrastructure that allows those individual interactions and the 189 00:09:38,650 --> 00:09:42,280 knowledge that individual people carry to remain in the system 190 00:09:42,370 --> 00:09:45,080 and be part of the overall learning infrastructure means 191 00:09:45,090 --> 00:09:47,810 that standards are visible, progression is structured, and 192 00:09:47,820 --> 00:09:50,280 that there's predictable pathways to your progression. 193 00:09:50,290 --> 00:09:53,100 For law firm in particular, that might mean moving beyond the 194 00:09:53,110 --> 00:09:56,440 continuous legal education, so Cle credits as a compliance 195 00:09:56,450 --> 00:09:59,720 requirement and moving towards structured progression tied to 196 00:09:59,730 --> 00:10:02,260 roll complexity and judgment maturity. 197 00:10:02,310 --> 00:10:05,400 So instead of thinking about learning as a checkbox exercise, 198 00:10:05,410 --> 00:10:08,570 how many hours of equity, diversity, inclusion programming 199 00:10:08,640 --> 00:10:10,880 would you watch and how many hours of, you know, skill 200 00:10:10,890 --> 00:10:13,940 development did you watch? How much is what you are 201 00:10:13,950 --> 00:10:16,920 learning improving your judgment in certain situations? 202 00:10:16,930 --> 00:10:20,240 This is why we have things like AI role play or we present 203 00:10:20,250 --> 00:10:22,340 present to our clients when we're creating structured 204 00:10:22,350 --> 00:10:24,900 modules, the most difficult scenarios. 205 00:10:24,910 --> 00:10:28,140 Do you understand what steps to take in trying to solve that 206 00:10:28,150 --> 00:10:30,640 problem? So we're looking at learning as 207 00:10:30,650 --> 00:10:33,560 application, not learning as completion. 208 00:10:33,630 --> 00:10:35,610 And that's the big difference. When learning becomes 209 00:10:35,620 --> 00:10:38,260 infrastructure in a successful way, performance becomes 210 00:10:38,270 --> 00:10:39,860 predictable. That's the measurement. 211 00:10:39,970 --> 00:10:42,880 Can you put any associate into that position and get the same 212 00:10:42,890 --> 00:10:45,360 predictable outcome? Because when variability is 213 00:10:45,370 --> 00:10:48,450 high, it means that there's no underlying infrastructure. 214 00:10:48,490 --> 00:10:51,220 Very, very interesting. It sounds like a lot more 215 00:10:51,230 --> 00:10:54,660 people, maybe it's succeeding this profession if we just had 216 00:10:54,670 --> 00:10:57,730 that structure and infrastructure in place in most 217 00:10:57,740 --> 00:11:00,390 workplaces. I often talk about how this is a 218 00:11:00,400 --> 00:11:04,430 profession where there's a high amount of people who just choose 219 00:11:04,440 --> 00:11:07,520 to leave it entirely different than, for example, doctors in 220 00:11:07,530 --> 00:11:10,410 the in the medical field. And it's been interesting to you 221 00:11:10,420 --> 00:11:13,590 to observe some trends or listening to this resonates in 222 00:11:13,600 --> 00:11:15,430 so many ways. For lawyers who feel their 223 00:11:15,440 --> 00:11:20,110 growth is becoming fragmented, what structure adjustments, not 224 00:11:20,120 --> 00:11:22,590 just personal habits should they consider? 225 00:11:22,660 --> 00:11:25,810 Yeah, I think this is an important responsibility that 226 00:11:25,820 --> 00:11:28,830 every lawyer needs to take. It's one thing to be evaluated 227 00:11:28,840 --> 00:11:30,430 in structured performance reviews. 228 00:11:30,540 --> 00:11:33,330 It's another thing to really sit down and think about what skills 229 00:11:33,340 --> 00:11:37,020 you want to develop at each year of call like so at each stage in 230 00:11:37,030 --> 00:11:40,020 your progression as a junior associate, mid level senior and 231 00:11:40,030 --> 00:11:42,820 to audit your own development. And the question that you need 232 00:11:42,830 --> 00:11:46,380 to ask at each stage is are you accumulating years of experience 233 00:11:46,430 --> 00:11:49,700 or are you actually becoming more sophisticated in your 234 00:11:49,710 --> 00:11:51,980 performance? Are you repeating at the same 235 00:11:51,990 --> 00:11:55,260 level or are you getting the skills needed to take on 236 00:11:55,270 --> 00:11:56,900 increasing levels of responsibility? 237 00:11:56,910 --> 00:11:59,460 And we call this compounding capability. 238 00:11:59,510 --> 00:12:02,230 The second thing they should ask or you should ask is my in the 239 00:12:02,240 --> 00:12:04,890 right environment. And the type of environment you 240 00:12:04,900 --> 00:12:08,400 want to look for is one that provides structured feedback and 241 00:12:08,410 --> 00:12:10,240 defined progression expectations. 242 00:12:10,250 --> 00:12:12,600 In other words, are you performing at the level of a 243 00:12:12,610 --> 00:12:16,300 first year at the top 10%? Are you at the middle or you are 244 00:12:16,310 --> 00:12:19,360 you at the bottom? And if you can't calibrate where 245 00:12:19,370 --> 00:12:23,210 you are in your performance capacity, if you don't 246 00:12:23,220 --> 00:12:25,400 understand whether you've mastered the first year level 247 00:12:25,410 --> 00:12:28,960 skills, it's hard to go into your successive stages of career 248 00:12:28,970 --> 00:12:32,120 progression and feel confident. Am I a successful 4th year? 249 00:12:32,190 --> 00:12:35,200 Am I competent 6th year 8 at year 8? 250 00:12:35,250 --> 00:12:38,220 Is it fair for me to raise my hand and ask to be a partner? 251 00:12:38,230 --> 00:12:40,960 Have I mastered those skills? So you always want to audit 252 00:12:41,030 --> 00:12:43,120 compounding capabilities along the way. 253 00:12:43,190 --> 00:12:46,140 And the third thing that one should think about long term is 254 00:12:46,250 --> 00:12:50,200 whether the institution creates opportunities for that 255 00:12:50,270 --> 00:12:51,760 infrastructure that we talk about. 256 00:12:51,830 --> 00:12:55,200 Is there institutional fragility or is there actual structural 257 00:12:55,210 --> 00:12:58,260 support for your long term success at the firm? 258 00:12:58,310 --> 00:13:01,220 Because some lawyers can successfully build careers 259 00:13:01,230 --> 00:13:04,190 within institutions, but others are going to have to build the 260 00:13:04,200 --> 00:13:06,770 institutions themselves in order to succeed. 261 00:13:06,960 --> 00:13:09,370 And you've got to decide, am I in an environment that's 262 00:13:09,380 --> 00:13:12,280 fragile, or do I need to create an environment that can actually 263 00:13:12,290 --> 00:13:14,910 support where I'm going? And if you get that wrong, 264 00:13:14,920 --> 00:13:18,480 you'll invest years in certain places that never reward your 265 00:13:18,580 --> 00:13:21,990 extra effort, never recognize the the work you're taking on 266 00:13:22,180 --> 00:13:24,470 don't necessarily give you the exposure you need. 267 00:13:24,560 --> 00:13:26,910 And suddenly you find that you've ended up mediocre in a 268 00:13:26,920 --> 00:13:29,530 profession where you really could have excelled if the right 269 00:13:29,540 --> 00:13:32,070 support had been. There amazing, very important 270 00:13:32,080 --> 00:13:35,370 institutional point where institutions can take the the 271 00:13:35,380 --> 00:13:38,000 necessary measures, but then also in another point where 272 00:13:38,260 --> 00:13:41,180 where you as a professional take responsibility over your career 273 00:13:41,190 --> 00:13:44,390 and and see what has to to be done in regards to your 274 00:13:44,400 --> 00:13:47,030 development. Thinking about you just founded 275 00:13:47,040 --> 00:13:51,310 Cognito Tracks to address those structural gaps in how 276 00:13:51,320 --> 00:13:53,510 organizations are building capacity. 277 00:13:53,560 --> 00:13:56,710 I'm curious to know what the problem are you most focused on 278 00:13:56,840 --> 00:13:59,150 solving right now. I'm tricks is interesting 279 00:13:59,160 --> 00:14:02,970 because we currently have a learning OS platform that allows 280 00:14:02,980 --> 00:14:05,870 us to bring in interactive learning to make it more 281 00:14:05,880 --> 00:14:09,200 engaging, to ensure that when training is offered, it's 282 00:14:09,210 --> 00:14:12,530 through reinforcement. It's something that can be 283 00:14:12,600 --> 00:14:16,190 applied directly to work right away, but mostly from a high 284 00:14:16,200 --> 00:14:19,050 level perspective, Cognito Trex is really focused on helping 285 00:14:19,060 --> 00:14:21,870 regulate it and complex organizations like law firms 286 00:14:21,940 --> 00:14:24,510 modernized in general, how they build capability. 287 00:14:24,580 --> 00:14:27,870 And in the first instance, you need a strong set of learning 288 00:14:27,880 --> 00:14:31,360 modules and courses, but how you alley them as equally important. 289 00:14:31,410 --> 00:14:34,080 So we know that many enterprises and platforms, they have 290 00:14:34,090 --> 00:14:37,640 content, they have compliance reporting, but what they lack is 291 00:14:37,690 --> 00:14:41,380 cohesion, structured pathways and other words that connect 292 00:14:41,390 --> 00:14:44,660 learning to roll expectations and performance outcomes. 293 00:14:44,710 --> 00:14:46,680 So how does this learning get leveraged? 294 00:14:46,690 --> 00:14:49,750 In other words, we help design learning environments that make 295 00:14:49,760 --> 00:14:52,040 development deliberate rather than accidental. 296 00:14:52,110 --> 00:14:54,580 So if you're a first year associate, what onboarding needs 297 00:14:54,590 --> 00:14:55,870 to happen? If you're a second year 298 00:14:55,880 --> 00:14:58,690 associate, what progressive skill development do you need 299 00:14:58,700 --> 00:15:01,180 and how do you measure it? What kinds of increasing levels 300 00:15:01,190 --> 00:15:03,940 of complexity should you be taking on and how is that 301 00:15:04,570 --> 00:15:08,020 complexity monitored? Is how do we evaluate mastery, 302 00:15:08,030 --> 00:15:10,860 in other words, to give you progressively more challenging 303 00:15:10,870 --> 00:15:12,750 work. So this includes content 304 00:15:12,760 --> 00:15:14,950 modernization. From our perspective, we help 305 00:15:14,960 --> 00:15:18,390 modernize content so that it is more engaging festival and 306 00:15:18,400 --> 00:15:21,390 reinforce able. We work on structured sequencing 307 00:15:21,460 --> 00:15:25,750 part A, Part B, part C in year 1 and then in year 2 ABC. 308 00:15:25,840 --> 00:15:28,950 And we were we work as well on interactive scenario based 309 00:15:28,960 --> 00:15:32,670 learning, which is the best way to learn through through real 310 00:15:32,680 --> 00:15:36,110 world scenarios. Over time, we plan to focus a 311 00:15:36,120 --> 00:15:39,930 lot more as well on readiness. So how organizations assess and 312 00:15:39,940 --> 00:15:42,650 govern capability and high consequence environments. 313 00:15:42,720 --> 00:15:45,990 So right now a lot of learning is just simply focused on 314 00:15:46,000 --> 00:15:48,030 completion rates. Did you sit through the 315 00:15:48,040 --> 00:15:49,030 training? Yes or no? 316 00:15:49,180 --> 00:15:51,330 And then the only real evaluation is did you take the 317 00:15:51,340 --> 00:15:54,260 quiz at the end? And usually the questions are 318 00:15:54,270 --> 00:15:56,450 things you could have answered without watching the video. 319 00:15:56,560 --> 00:15:59,230 Readiness is a measurement that's completely different. 320 00:15:59,320 --> 00:16:03,030 Readiness is about whether or not the course you did watch has 321 00:16:03,040 --> 00:16:05,710 translated into meaningful behavioral change. 322 00:16:05,760 --> 00:16:08,480 So readiness can only be evaluated through assessments 323 00:16:08,490 --> 00:16:12,210 that look at knowledge completion, but also performance 324 00:16:12,220 --> 00:16:14,310 feedbacks. Also, how many, how much 325 00:16:14,320 --> 00:16:16,290 exposure have you had to certain deals? 326 00:16:16,440 --> 00:16:19,600 Have you demonstrated strong judgment when faced with 327 00:16:19,610 --> 00:16:22,590 particular situations? Readiness is the translation of 328 00:16:22,600 --> 00:16:25,130 knowledge into action. And that's what we're focused 329 00:16:25,140 --> 00:16:28,290 on, not just creating good content, but did the content 330 00:16:28,300 --> 00:16:31,030 create impact in how people perform? 331 00:16:31,100 --> 00:16:33,390 And I'll tell you why this matters so much, Claudio. 332 00:16:33,480 --> 00:16:36,810 There are certain professions in which performance actually 333 00:16:36,820 --> 00:16:39,650 affects people's lives in very meaningful ways. 334 00:16:39,720 --> 00:16:42,320 So if you have an underperforming salesperson, for 335 00:16:42,330 --> 00:16:46,520 example, it may not be a make or break impact on somebody else. 336 00:16:46,570 --> 00:16:50,300 But if you have a doctor or a nurse or a lawyer who's not able 337 00:16:50,310 --> 00:16:53,840 to perform at full capacity, that leads to patient injuries, 338 00:16:53,850 --> 00:16:57,660 that leads to liability, that can lead to exposure for 339 00:16:57,670 --> 00:16:59,820 companies. If you're looking at workplace 340 00:16:59,830 --> 00:17:03,000 safety, for people who aren't able to translate workplace 341 00:17:03,010 --> 00:17:05,640 safety training into real practice, that can lead to 342 00:17:05,650 --> 00:17:08,960 injuries or explosions or damage to equipment. 343 00:17:08,970 --> 00:17:13,099 So we we focus on regulated industries where training isn't 344 00:17:13,109 --> 00:17:16,560 just a tick box exercise, It's something that can truly impact 345 00:17:16,569 --> 00:17:18,740 people's lives. And we focus a lot right now on 346 00:17:18,750 --> 00:17:21,480 Canadian companies, especially because we we believe Canadian 347 00:17:21,490 --> 00:17:25,359 workers deserve to be looked after by their employers. 348 00:17:25,369 --> 00:17:27,770 We deserve, we know that Canadian companies deserve to 349 00:17:27,780 --> 00:17:30,110 have best in class training wherever possible. 350 00:17:30,120 --> 00:17:32,650 And we love partnering with Canadian companies because it 351 00:17:32,660 --> 00:17:35,410 also means we can apply for grants to invest in the 352 00:17:35,420 --> 00:17:37,830 development of new learning technologies for our 353 00:17:37,840 --> 00:17:40,570 communities. So it's really exciting to be at 354 00:17:40,580 --> 00:17:43,630 the forefront of learning and development and to see that 355 00:17:43,640 --> 00:17:46,350 shape the communities in which we operate here in Canada. 356 00:17:46,400 --> 00:17:49,340 Very exciting. So if you were advising high 357 00:17:49,350 --> 00:17:52,850 performing associate who senses that maybe they want to build 358 00:17:52,860 --> 00:17:55,650 something of their own at some point, or maybe even, you know, 359 00:17:55,660 --> 00:18:00,810 just have the most possibility of freedom and you know, have as 360 00:18:00,820 --> 00:18:03,710 many doors open as possible, what should they start 361 00:18:03,720 --> 00:18:07,570 developing now in your opinion? Highly encouraged 362 00:18:07,620 --> 00:18:09,720 entrepreneurship. I think it's incredibly 363 00:18:09,730 --> 00:18:11,870 exciting. I think a lot of people see it 364 00:18:11,880 --> 00:18:14,610 as a risk, but you can take a calculated risk. 365 00:18:14,660 --> 00:18:17,830 So my first piece of advice is it's about sequencing. 366 00:18:17,880 --> 00:18:21,290 Make sure that you've mastered the skills that the legal 367 00:18:21,300 --> 00:18:24,370 contacts offers you. Take advantage of those initial 368 00:18:24,380 --> 00:18:26,940 years in law where you really build a foundation for critical 369 00:18:26,950 --> 00:18:30,850 thinking, judgment and decision making and don't feel pressured 370 00:18:30,860 --> 00:18:33,280 to leave prematurely. It's a really important skill, 371 00:18:33,290 --> 00:18:36,450 building time. And if you're somebody who's mid 372 00:18:36,460 --> 00:18:39,760 career or you're even a partner in thinking and starting on your 373 00:18:39,770 --> 00:18:42,480 own, I would say go for it. There's really no perfect time 374 00:18:42,490 --> 00:18:44,910 to start a business. As long as you know that you've 375 00:18:44,920 --> 00:18:48,090 mastered a core set of skills that will serve you, you've 376 00:18:48,100 --> 00:18:51,170 built a sufficient network to be able to build your business by 377 00:18:51,180 --> 00:18:53,340 leveraging. And as long as you understand 378 00:18:53,470 --> 00:18:57,240 that entrepreneurship is not a form of rebellion against the 379 00:18:57,250 --> 00:18:59,380 system, it's a form of architecture. 380 00:18:59,450 --> 00:19:02,800 And the best entrepreneurs I know are the ones who do boring, 381 00:19:02,810 --> 00:19:05,960 tedious work over and over and over again very well. 382 00:19:06,010 --> 00:19:10,040 Consistency, boring consistency is what makes or breaks the 383 00:19:10,050 --> 00:19:12,360 company. It's, it's not as fast-paced as 384 00:19:12,370 --> 00:19:15,180 it looks in the movies. It's not as exciting all the 385 00:19:15,190 --> 00:19:19,540 time, but the gains are real. The scalability is astronomical. 386 00:19:19,550 --> 00:19:23,120 You really have uncapped potential to earn and to grow 387 00:19:23,130 --> 00:19:25,180 and to build. But there has to be method to 388 00:19:25,190 --> 00:19:27,700 the madness. So master that discipline, 389 00:19:27,710 --> 00:19:30,630 master that structure, master that judgment, build your 390 00:19:30,640 --> 00:19:33,140 networks. And only at that point they say 391 00:19:33,190 --> 00:19:35,660 leave because this is a profession that gives you so 392 00:19:35,670 --> 00:19:38,000 much and it can be used as a springboard into 393 00:19:38,010 --> 00:19:42,320 entrepreneurship rather than a rebellion or an alternative to 394 00:19:42,330 --> 00:19:45,580 it that doesn't connect. They, they definitely connect 395 00:19:45,590 --> 00:19:48,310 And, and I think I'm a better entrepreneur because I studied 396 00:19:48,320 --> 00:19:51,080 as a lawyer. 1st, thank you so much for taking the time to 397 00:19:51,090 --> 00:19:53,890 share more about the cognitive tracts about your career and 398 00:19:54,120 --> 00:19:56,490 these awesome insights. I appreciate you being here in 399 00:19:56,500 --> 00:19:58,200 the podcast. Thank you so much, Claudia. 400 00:19:58,310 --> 00:20:00,070 Thanks again. Thank you all for tuning in.