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Welcome to studying. 
Law around the world. 

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I'm Claudio Claus. 
In each episode, I talk with 

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lawyers, law students, and 
professors from different parts 

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of the world to talk about legal
education, careers, and what the

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profession looks like in real 
life. 

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We talk about the hard parts, 
the surprises and the decisions.

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That shaped their paths. 
Whether you're planning to study

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abroad, thinking about working 
in another legal system, or just

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curious about how law works 
around the world, this podcast 

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is for. 
You today I have the opportunity

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to interview Andy Shaughnessy. 
Thank you so much for taking the

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time to be in the podcast today.
And to kick things off, I I'd 

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love for you to introduce 
yourself to your listeners, 

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Andy. 
Well, thank you very much. 

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First of all, Claudia, for 
inviting me to join you today. 

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I've listened to some of your 
podcasts and you've got quite a 

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list of people that you've 
invited to speak and I'm a 

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little bit flattered as 
starstruck. 

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So let's get going. 
So I am a partner in litigation 

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at the Toronto office of Tories 
in Toronto Wide Practice 

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intellectual property 
litigation. 

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I have a background in chemical 
engineering. 

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I graduated in the 80s and when 
I graduated in the 80s, there 

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were no jobs in the oil 
industry. 

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So with the degree of chemical 
engineering did I do, I had an 

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offer with in Fort McMurray, AB 
in the tar sands that didn't 

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appeal to me. 
I had an offer at the Bruce 

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Heavy water plant with Ontario 
Hydro about two hours north of 

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London ON. 
It's meant the summer there. 

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So I knew kind of what that was 
all about. 

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And the third offer was from 
Imperial Oil, a sales job, 

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probably had no business taking 
it, but it was fun. 

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And then I transitioned to a job
with the chemical company in 

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northern Ontario who lived in 
the Sioux at an office in 

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Sudbury, finished the week in 
Marathon ON driving a roughly an

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ugly Crimson Chevy citation 
wagon full of chemicals. 

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And that was my background and I
probably would have stayed in 

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engineering and sales. 
And then I met a wild and wacky 

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patent agent at Algoma Steel. 
I was doing a project for my 

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company and this guy with the 
white hat came out. 

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He literally had a white hat on 
and asked me what I was doing. 

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I asked him why he was asking 
and he said you don't get to ask

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the questions. 
I do. 

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I'm the patent agent. 
And they explained patent law to

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me in a way that it hadn't been 
described to me in engineering 

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school. 
And you know, I guess if Cupid 

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had an arrow, that's when the 
arrow of patent law went into my

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heart. 
And so I decided that I was 

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going to leave sales and I went 
back to law school, drove down 

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one day to Toronto, wrote the 
LSAT, and then a few months 

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later, I was lucky enough to get
into the school where I studied 

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engineering Queens. 
So that's my origin story. 

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Or that's amazing. 
And from what I understand you 

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also act as an adjunct today. 
So are are done it in the 

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previous years. 
So I'd love to hear a little bit

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about that having this 
experience in the today's 

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cholesterol as as you mentioned 
you've graduated a couple of 

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years back. 
I'm wondering if you see also 

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big differences of what the 
experience looks like and even, 

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you know when interacting within
counterparts in your farm, if 

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there's a few things that you 
notice that today's loss 

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shouldn't face that are kind of 
different kind of challenges 

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than the ones you had when you 
first started out? 

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Sure. 
Well, let me start with where 

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you started, which is my work 
overseeing the Fox Move project 

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at the University of Toronto Law
School. 

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And that's a labour of love. 
I think I've done it now for 16 

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years and I get 4 students every
year starting their their sort 

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of their advocacy journey. 
Some people were just trying 

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advocacy on for the first time. 
Some people knowing that that's 

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all they want, do an IP moot. 
So it's within the big spot of 

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love in my heart. 
And I really, you know, when I 

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first took the job, I had major 
imposter syndrome. 

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And I'll come back to that in a 
second, right, of thinking, what

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the heck am I doing teaching 
students or trying to teach 

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students at the University of 
Toronto? 

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But I've very quickly fell into 
my groove. 

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It's something I love doing with
the students and spending time 

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with them just as help me, 
especially laterally realize 

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what pressure they're under, 
right? 

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With the advent of technology. 
I mean, students to this day of 

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have just got the sense of 
immediacy about needing to 

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learn, right? 
Way back when I was in law 

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school, it seemed to think that 
we had 12 to 15 hours of Class A

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week, lots of time to read. 
We didn't have computers. 

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We might have had them in the in
the library so we could do quick

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law research at the time, but 
otherwise everything was on the 

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print and lots of time to read 
and think and absorb and, and 

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now everything that comes out 
the students so quickly and 

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there's a seem to have a need to
get the right answer the first 

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time that they're doing stuff. 
And that's why I think I like 

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the the fox mood so much is the 
fact that we really get to 

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practice at it and come at it. 
And that takes me then back to 

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my experience at law school. 
I walked in being an engineer 

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and a salesman, you know, in 
with people with political 

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science degrees and history 
degrees, some advanced degrees. 

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And I think the first thing 
somebody asked me what was my 

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LSAT score, and I was just 
completely shellshocked. 

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I've never told anybody else 
outscore maybe my wife. 

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I don't think anybody should 
tell anybody ever their LSAT 

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score. 
And so to be asked this, it 

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really sort of put me back on my
heels as engineers didn't read 

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as much as other students did. 
So that was a real challenge for

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me was trying to tackle the 
reading load and, and, and 

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again, to use the, the phrase I 
used a moment ago, it didn't 

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take me too long before I got my
feet under me and I started 

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enjoying it. 
I went to law school to be a 

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patent lawyer and I got bitten 
by the litigation bug. 

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I mooted in my first year and in
my second year. 

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And I always knew that I wanted 
to come out then to pursue IP 

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and IP advocacy, which is how 
things ended up for me. 

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So it was 3 great years at 
Queens 7, seven years in total. 

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Don't recommend it if you don't 
make Kingston Weather, but it 

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was a really great experience. 
That's amazing. 

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And I believe that most of the 
lawyers that I've interviewed 

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that have worked with IP, most 
of them have either a Health 

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Sciences background or some kind
of engineering background. 

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Thinking about your career and 
really what you see in the 

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day-to-day practice is, is that 
today very much the norm or do 

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you see more and more students 
coming from all kinds of streams

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into IP and IP litigation? 
So it's a great question and it 

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really depends on who's given 
the answer. 

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You know, from my experience, 
look at Justice Benny, just as 

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he and Benny was a phenomenal 
litigator, McCarthy E, which is 

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where I suffered an article to 
practice for two years. 

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He didn't know science degree. 
Down the hall is Andrew 

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Bernstein, who's one of my 
partners, litigation partners. 

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He's got a degree from McGill in
commerce. 

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So I don't think it's an 
impediment, but some people will

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say you have to have some 
conversancy with scientific 

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subject matter. 
I think you just have to be 

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curious. 
I think you have to be able to 

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get down phonetically what the 
scientists are telling you and 

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then go back and work hard and 
try and figure it out. 

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And of course, I stand on the 
shoulders of a big team here, 

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really, really fantastic people 
and good teachers too, which is 

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what's important. 
So I'm it's, it's a great 

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question. 
I would hate to discourage 

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anybody from pursuing IP if that
was their their heart. 

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But yeah, you know, there there 
is a number of us out there that

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say you have to have a science 
degree and not particularly one 

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of them, but it can be tough. 
No, that's amazing. 

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Very, very interesting point. 
And I like that you use the, 

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the, you know, kind of 
phonetically translate what the 

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scientists are saying, because 
I've seen that you mentioned in 

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your writings somewhat of a love
for short stories, for poetry, 

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even mentioned some poetry in 
your posts on LinkedIn. 

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And with that kind of, you know,
creative outside and all of 

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that, I'd love to hear a little 
bit of, you know, if you're 

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found that, you know, litigation
satisfies the little bit of that

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need for, for storytelling. 
And I think you've even said 

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something about, you know, the, 
the differences in scientific 

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writing, legal writing versus 
toiletry and, and how, you know,

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you can bag questions should the
reader and lead then kind of 

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figure out the rest. 
And, and that's not what you do 

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for a legal writing. 
So I'd love to hear a little bit

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of your stance on that as. 
Well, you know, thank you for 

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asking and, and mentioning my 
writing. 

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It's, it's a hobby, you know, 
it's what I do early in the, in 

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the in the morning. 
Contrary to some of my critics, 

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I'm not retiring yet, but I may 
take set up later. 

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You know, I think writing had 
always been there when I was in 

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high school, you know, I, I 
enjoyed music. 

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I played in the stage band. 
I took some aptitude tests once 

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and I think somebody told my 
dad, look at this kid could be 

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the next Neil Simon. 
I didn't know who that was. 

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I had to look it up. 
But I wanted to be an engineer, 

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just like my dad and just like 
some of some of his friends. 

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And that's what I I did do in 
2014. 

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I picked up creative writing. 
I think we're I was going 

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through a very busy time, a very
stressful time. 

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And smarter people than me told 
me, look, find a way to slow 

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down. 
And I found that picking up the 

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pen, literally the pen then is 
now my fingers on keyboards and 

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writing stories because I'm not 
want to keep a journal with 

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something to help me slow down. 
So that was great. 

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What I like about the stories, 
the fact that when I'm in the 

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world of my story or in the mind
of my characters, I find it 

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deeply relaxing. 
And what's important for me is 

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to make sure that I give to my 
reader because they can't get 

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inside my mind. 
I give to my reader enough that 

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they can world pain and get the 
point that I'm trying to make. 

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And it's usually a pretty soft 
point. 

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You know, I'm not a great 
writer. 

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I just, I want to have some sort
of an arc. 

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I can't really see out beyond 
2500 words. 

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But we don't have that luxury in
law. 

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We don't know if the luxury to 
give you. 

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Like, you know, I talked about 
Hemingway and how in Hills like 

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White Elephants, he just gives 
you a little bit of detail and 

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you've got to figure out 
yourself. 

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We don't have that luxury in 
law. 

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And so you have to make sure 
that the key details are all 

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written down. 
People ask me all the time, do 

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you think that your creative 
writing makes you a better legal

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writer? 
I said don't think so. 

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I think I've got some very, very
amazing legal writers up and 

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down these halls here and I 
don't think that they do any 

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creative writing whatsoever. 
But for me, it's just that 

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allows me, it gives me an extra 
opportunity to put inflection, 

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voice pace sneaks so I can make 
the writing a little bit more 

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colourful, a little bit more 
persuasive. 

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And as I like to say, I like to 
shoot for gas. 

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So I want to make sure that 
there are no gaps. 

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And let me just give you a story
audio in 2001 when I took a 

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trial course in the United 
States under the auspices of 

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Nida, the National Institute of 
Trial Advocacy. 

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And I got to do a jury trial in 
front of a real jury out of law 

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school in the United States. 
Now that was a fake impaneled 

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jury, but they were there and 
they had a camera in the jury 

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room. 
And I was on for plaintiff. 

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And everything was going well, 
except I had placed the 

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plaintiff all was on the 
motorcycle, on his motorcycle in

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the lane at the speed, but I 
hadn't identified where in 

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particular and laying the 
motorcycle was. 

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And this suddenly became a 
fascination of the jury. 

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And they made, they made it up. 
We can't afford our readers to 

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make stuff up. 
So you have to sort of pinpoint 

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it. 
I think to that extent or the 

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two disciplines, greater writing
and legal writing and sort of 

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reflect off each other in my 
world in my mind. 

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And so I think they're helpful. 
But I quite frankly, I use it as

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an outlet. 
It's a hobby. 

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00:10:40,690 --> 00:10:42,460
That's amazing. 
You know, that's very, very 

225
00:10:42,470 --> 00:10:45,060
interesting to hear. 
And I think that more and more 

226
00:10:45,070 --> 00:10:48,290
we've been hearing lawyers 
sharing a little bit more 

227
00:10:48,300 --> 00:10:52,380
publicly, you know, what they do
for managing stress or, or all 

228
00:10:52,390 --> 00:10:54,140
of that. 
And it's it's been very 

229
00:10:54,150 --> 00:10:57,080
interesting to kind of follow 
the this sort of movement. 

230
00:10:57,090 --> 00:11:00,020
Maybe before we didn't have, you
know, a platform where people 

231
00:11:00,030 --> 00:11:02,630
would share that kind of thing, 
or maybe it wasn't, as, you 

232
00:11:02,640 --> 00:11:06,230
know, socially acceptable to you
to be speaking about mental 

233
00:11:06,240 --> 00:11:08,550
health and all of that in a 
public way. 

234
00:11:08,560 --> 00:11:12,290
But I I'd love to hear a little 
bit more from you, you know, if,

235
00:11:12,300 --> 00:11:15,710
if you feel like there's a, 
there's somewhat of an important

236
00:11:15,780 --> 00:11:19,950
point to be made in this sense 
of showing a human vulnerable 

237
00:11:19,960 --> 00:11:23,190
side of, you know, law firm 
partners that really 

238
00:11:23,200 --> 00:11:26,810
incentivizes, you know, this new
generation of lawyers going into

239
00:11:26,820 --> 00:11:30,110
the workforce And, and seeing 
that there is, you know, regular

240
00:11:30,120 --> 00:11:33,050
humans on on the other side. 
Do you think that the profession

241
00:11:33,060 --> 00:11:35,590
is, you know, kind of becoming a
place where we can bring and 

242
00:11:35,600 --> 00:11:37,830
share our whole selves to some 
extent? 

243
00:11:37,840 --> 00:11:39,610
And and what are some of your 
thoughts on that? 

244
00:11:39,680 --> 00:11:42,220
So I think it's changing. 
I think we've got a ways to go, 

245
00:11:42,230 --> 00:11:44,990
but I think it's changing and I 
think we see some leaders in the

246
00:11:45,000 --> 00:11:46,990
field. 
You know, you mentioned Alan 

247
00:11:47,000 --> 00:11:51,540
Ritchie, who I was, was one of 
his LinkedIn posts I reposted 

248
00:11:51,550 --> 00:11:53,390
the other day. 
We've got some people were very 

249
00:11:53,400 --> 00:11:55,010
open about it, like Cody. 
What? 

250
00:11:55,020 --> 00:11:57,930
Let's say you walked out of the 
house tomorrow and on your way 

251
00:11:57,940 --> 00:12:00,720
to the bus stop or the car or 
however you choose to get to 

252
00:12:00,730 --> 00:12:03,110
work, you fell and you broke 
both of your legs, right? 

253
00:12:03,120 --> 00:12:05,620
You'd call me and say, Andy, I 
can't make our meeting because 

254
00:12:05,630 --> 00:12:07,560
I've broken both of my legs. 
And I said, Oh my God, Claudia, 

255
00:12:07,570 --> 00:12:09,490
I'm so sorry. 
And I find out where what 

256
00:12:09,500 --> 00:12:11,620
hostile you're in. 
I'd come and I'd see and they 

257
00:12:11,630 --> 00:12:13,340
send you flowers and all the 
rest of the stuff. 

258
00:12:13,400 --> 00:12:18,490
How is that any different from a
mental disorder or a mental 

259
00:12:18,500 --> 00:12:20,680
illness that comes up and 
particularly haven't come 

260
00:12:20,690 --> 00:12:22,710
through the end of the pandemic,
right? 

261
00:12:22,720 --> 00:12:27,310
Where anxiety is rife, where, 
you know, my, my doctor was 

262
00:12:27,320 --> 00:12:30,600
saying that he was diagnosed 
with post or the PTSD or 

263
00:12:30,610 --> 00:12:32,530
whatever the that I can stalls 
out as. 

264
00:12:32,880 --> 00:12:36,590
So how is that any different? 
And you know, and as I said to 

265
00:12:36,600 --> 00:12:39,270
somebody once who was suffering 
from mental illness, not mental 

266
00:12:39,280 --> 00:12:43,110
illness, but but a disorder, I 
said, it's not your fault, just 

267
00:12:43,120 --> 00:12:45,150
in the same way, Claudia, it 
wasn't your fault that you fell 

268
00:12:45,160 --> 00:12:47,020
down or broke your legs in my 
story. 

269
00:12:47,080 --> 00:12:50,150
So I think it's got to change. 
I think there's got to be a 

270
00:12:50,160 --> 00:12:53,350
little bit more understanding. 
And I think that, you know, I'm 

271
00:12:53,360 --> 00:12:56,320
happy to see more and more 
people talk openly about some of

272
00:12:56,330 --> 00:12:58,630
the things that they've they've 
gone through. 

273
00:12:58,680 --> 00:13:00,940
And I think that the more that 
we have dialogue and quite 

274
00:13:00,950 --> 00:13:04,440
frankly, I think the more that 
hopefully individuals like me at

275
00:13:04,450 --> 00:13:08,680
big law talk about it, the more 
we'll be able to have safe 

276
00:13:08,690 --> 00:13:10,900
places to have these 
conversations about something 

277
00:13:10,910 --> 00:13:14,240
that's, that's really important.
Um, because a lot of people go 

278
00:13:14,250 --> 00:13:16,080
through it and that takes me to 
LinkedIn. 

279
00:13:16,090 --> 00:13:19,200
If I can just keep going for a 
second, I was finding that when 

280
00:13:19,210 --> 00:13:21,880
I was, you know, scrolling and 
scrolling through LinkedIn, I 

281
00:13:21,890 --> 00:13:24,880
was getting anxious, right? 
There's a lot of not so humble 

282
00:13:24,890 --> 00:13:27,320
brag on LinkedIn and, and for 
good reason. 

283
00:13:27,330 --> 00:13:29,310
There's a lot of people that 
have done wonderful things with 

284
00:13:29,320 --> 00:13:32,400
their career and they want to 
loudly announce it and all of 

285
00:13:32,410 --> 00:13:33,990
the rest of the stuff. 
But when you're sitting there, 

286
00:13:34,000 --> 00:13:36,920
you kind of see it and after a 
while it just starts to get a 

287
00:13:36,930 --> 00:13:41,020
little bit anxiety inducing. 
And I'm a partner, you know, at 

288
00:13:41,030 --> 00:13:43,860
A7 sister law firm. 
And so I thought, well, what 

289
00:13:43,870 --> 00:13:46,500
does a young person going to be 
doing going through LinkedIn, 

290
00:13:46,510 --> 00:13:48,220
right? 
Some, some young lawyers say to 

291
00:13:48,230 --> 00:13:50,820
me, I can't go on it. 
It's just, it just triggers me. 

292
00:13:50,890 --> 00:13:53,440
And I decided that I was going 
to try and do something a little

293
00:13:53,450 --> 00:13:55,880
bit different with the LinkedIn 
for a different reason. 

294
00:13:55,950 --> 00:13:58,660
And that's why you probably find
that I'm a little bit chatty on 

295
00:13:58,670 --> 00:14:00,280
LinkedIn. 
I try to do something every day,

296
00:14:00,290 --> 00:14:02,920
but a little bit different. 
And I'll brag about my writing 

297
00:14:02,930 --> 00:14:05,670
for my writing community, but 
I'll try and keep the humble 

298
00:14:05,680 --> 00:14:09,040
brag in the back drawer so that 
we can talk about a better 

299
00:14:09,050 --> 00:14:10,680
things and more interesting 
things. 

300
00:14:10,970 --> 00:14:14,040
That's very inspiring. 
And if I may ask you, I feel 

301
00:14:14,050 --> 00:14:17,060
like as I interviewed different 
lawyers throughout the years, 

302
00:14:17,190 --> 00:14:20,980
I've heard very interesting 
stories of, you know, I joined 

303
00:14:20,990 --> 00:14:26,280
the law because of ex. 
I stayed because of, or, you 

304
00:14:26,290 --> 00:14:29,760
know, or maybe I started off my 
career in this area. 

305
00:14:29,770 --> 00:14:32,380
I kind of transitioned it over 
to something else because of 

306
00:14:32,390 --> 00:14:35,600
why, if I may ask you, you said 
that you were kind of beat by 

307
00:14:35,610 --> 00:14:38,720
the the litigation bug right out
of law school and, and kind of 

308
00:14:38,730 --> 00:14:40,400
pursue this career over the 
years. 

309
00:14:40,470 --> 00:14:44,320
Is it, you know, the, the 
creativity is it, you know, the 

310
00:14:44,370 --> 00:14:46,640
very different cases that you 
have every week? 

311
00:14:46,690 --> 00:14:50,000
What keeps you passionate after,
you know, years doing the same 

312
00:14:50,250 --> 00:14:52,410
nature of work but. 
I want to answer this in two 

313
00:14:52,420 --> 00:14:53,920
ways. 
Number one, I just want to say 

314
00:14:53,930 --> 00:14:57,540
that I think I love about my 
cases is the curiosity. 

315
00:14:57,590 --> 00:15:00,340
Every new like my my favorite 
cases is the one I'm going to 

316
00:15:00,350 --> 00:15:02,150
get tomorrow. 
You know, my favorite case is 

317
00:15:02,160 --> 00:15:04,380
the new case because it's like 
it's like a gift. 

318
00:15:04,390 --> 00:15:07,200
You open the box and you see all
these new things and you get to 

319
00:15:07,310 --> 00:15:08,870
figure it out. 
So I love that. 

320
00:15:08,950 --> 00:15:12,780
And then within IP, you know, I 
love matching the science to the

321
00:15:12,790 --> 00:15:16,700
policy to the law. 
And then every patent case there

322
00:15:16,710 --> 00:15:19,140
is an invention story. 
And hopefully the invention 

323
00:15:19,150 --> 00:15:21,600
story is good. 
And if it's good, then I get 

324
00:15:21,610 --> 00:15:23,540
really excited about that 
because now I get to defend a 

325
00:15:23,550 --> 00:15:25,830
story. 
But I think that, you know, if I

326
00:15:25,840 --> 00:15:28,500
think back, I don't want anybody
to really think. 

327
00:15:28,510 --> 00:15:30,640
Well, yeah, you're talking to 
Andy, Sean, He's doing this for 

328
00:15:30,650 --> 00:15:32,500
30 years. 
You know, he's a he's a, he's a 

329
00:15:32,510 --> 00:15:35,400
partner at Tories. 
It's been easy for him. 

330
00:15:35,450 --> 00:15:39,290
And I, I want to say no, you 
know, I, I think way back to you

331
00:15:39,300 --> 00:15:42,210
graduating from engineering when
there were no jobs and figure 

332
00:15:42,220 --> 00:15:45,600
out how to recreate myself. 
I remember my father's worry 

333
00:15:45,610 --> 00:15:50,160
when I told him I was going to 
leave my job and and go to law 

334
00:15:50,170 --> 00:15:52,330
school, which nobody in my 
family done. 

335
00:15:52,340 --> 00:15:54,930
And then in the first, like I 
didn't come to Tories in flowers

336
00:15:54,940 --> 00:15:57,510
with my 8th year. 
And you just have to follow my 

337
00:15:57,520 --> 00:15:59,960
history on LinkedIn to see that 
it bounced around a little bit. 

338
00:15:59,970 --> 00:16:03,370
And there's reasons for that. 
But it didn't really set until 

339
00:16:03,420 --> 00:16:05,900
my 8th year that this was really
something that I wanted to 

340
00:16:05,910 --> 00:16:08,550
commit to and follow. 
And even though after I left 

341
00:16:08,560 --> 00:16:12,010
Mccarthys in my second year, I 
started to focus more and more 

342
00:16:12,100 --> 00:16:15,390
in IP, but it wasn't easy. 
And I only say that because I 

343
00:16:15,400 --> 00:16:17,530
think a lot of people are 
discouraged. 

344
00:16:17,540 --> 00:16:20,890
You ask me about students today 
and I use the word immediacy. 

345
00:16:20,960 --> 00:16:24,210
Everybody feels that they have 
to immediately be on a track or 

346
00:16:24,280 --> 00:16:27,250
they have to have their vector 
set for them, their career plan 

347
00:16:27,260 --> 00:16:30,110
in front of them and they have 
to be on their way or else their

348
00:16:30,120 --> 00:16:34,040
careers fail from the get go. 
And I hope that people will look

349
00:16:34,050 --> 00:16:35,550
at my example and eyes. 
Look. 

350
00:16:35,560 --> 00:16:38,570
It took me about 8 years to 
figure it out, but it was always

351
00:16:38,580 --> 00:16:40,250
there. 
But there's lots of time to 

352
00:16:40,260 --> 00:16:41,970
figure it out and get things 
going. 

353
00:16:42,040 --> 00:16:43,280
Yeah. 
I mean, dance your question. 

354
00:16:43,290 --> 00:16:45,270
Yeah. 
I love the science, the stories.

355
00:16:45,370 --> 00:16:47,340
Thank. 
You, I have to ask you about 

356
00:16:47,350 --> 00:16:49,690
something else that you shared 
recently here. 

357
00:16:49,840 --> 00:16:53,530
You shared about an interesting 
concept that I think it goes by 

358
00:16:53,540 --> 00:16:57,880
the initialism boats, right? 
Bundling, outsourcing, 

359
00:16:57,940 --> 00:17:01,790
alternating technology and, and 
simplifying something that was 

360
00:17:01,800 --> 00:17:04,230
there on your LinkedIn. 
And I'd love to hear a little 

361
00:17:04,240 --> 00:17:07,510
bit about that, about, you know,
the, the, I guess the time 

362
00:17:07,520 --> 00:17:11,550
management aspects of it. 
Or how do you, you know seeing 

363
00:17:11,560 --> 00:17:15,450
students, young associates 
coming in, how can they also 

364
00:17:15,460 --> 00:17:18,890
apply the the boats method to 
their legal? 

365
00:17:18,900 --> 00:17:22,770
Practice so this is nothing in 
my life as original gaudio 

366
00:17:22,780 --> 00:17:26,829
everything is derivative and 
this derives from something that

367
00:17:26,839 --> 00:17:29,730
a classmate a law school 
classmate and then articling 

368
00:17:29,740 --> 00:17:33,710
classmate Sasha Fraser told me 
she was at Xerox at the time and

369
00:17:33,720 --> 00:17:36,490
in-house counsel and this I 
think was one of their standard 

370
00:17:36,920 --> 00:17:39,570
Standard Time management 
protocols that they taught 

371
00:17:39,640 --> 00:17:42,930
boats. 
Bundling outsourcing alternating

372
00:17:42,940 --> 00:17:44,900
technology and simple thought 
simplify. 

373
00:17:44,960 --> 00:17:47,550
It's a simple rule. 
So bundling is simple. 

374
00:17:47,600 --> 00:17:50,000
You know it means that let's say
you and I enjoyed each other's 

375
00:17:50,010 --> 00:17:52,090
company and we also like to 
walk. 

376
00:17:52,160 --> 00:17:55,250
Then we would say look at let's 
bundle those activities together

377
00:17:55,260 --> 00:17:57,490
so we can you know we save the 
time. 

378
00:17:57,590 --> 00:17:59,730
We can see each other and walk 
at the same time outsourcing. 

379
00:17:59,740 --> 00:18:02,980
You saw me post on LinkedIn 
about a bag of leaves right? 

380
00:18:02,990 --> 00:18:06,500
If you can find somebody to do 
something, you know put your 

381
00:18:06,510 --> 00:18:08,990
money in circulation in the 
community and have someone do 

382
00:18:09,000 --> 00:18:11,540
something for you. 
You save time alternating. 

383
00:18:11,650 --> 00:18:14,500
I don't watch a lot of TV but I 
do like to sit down and watch a 

384
00:18:14,510 --> 00:18:16,280
show with my wife or my 
daughter. 

385
00:18:16,370 --> 00:18:18,240
They might watch a show once a 
week. 

386
00:18:18,320 --> 00:18:20,860
I might drop in once a month 
just to see it. 

387
00:18:20,930 --> 00:18:23,610
I enjoy it just as much. 
And I've saved myself a little 

388
00:18:23,620 --> 00:18:25,770
time just by alternating like 
that. 

389
00:18:25,830 --> 00:18:28,740
Technology is simple. 
I dictate as much as I can use 

390
00:18:28,750 --> 00:18:30,860
to dictate more. 
I dictate on my phone. 

391
00:18:30,950 --> 00:18:33,980
That's why sometimes my emails 
and my posts are so error 

392
00:18:33,990 --> 00:18:36,320
ridden. 
And simplify is, is simple. 

393
00:18:36,330 --> 00:18:38,000
Simplify. 
Something I taught myself in law

394
00:18:38,010 --> 00:18:41,200
school even before boats, which 
was touch a piece of paper once.

395
00:18:41,270 --> 00:18:42,910
I don't have time to go back and
read things. 

396
00:18:42,920 --> 00:18:45,790
And as you become a busy 
litigator, it's very, very hard 

397
00:18:45,800 --> 00:18:47,710
to go back and read things. 
So if you're going to read a 

398
00:18:47,720 --> 00:18:51,190
case, take the time to sit down 
and really read it and make a 

399
00:18:51,200 --> 00:18:54,890
note and, and, and then go back 
to your note if you need it, not

400
00:18:54,900 --> 00:18:57,580
to the original document unless 
it's important for your fact and

401
00:18:57,640 --> 00:19:00,810
for your argument in court. 
You don't have time to do a soup

402
00:19:00,820 --> 00:19:03,930
to nuts review on a case just 
because you get anxious. 

403
00:19:04,000 --> 00:19:07,290
So you have to just simplify 
your life by just deciding that 

404
00:19:07,300 --> 00:19:09,850
you're only going to do things 
once or you're going to read an 

405
00:19:09,860 --> 00:19:12,430
e-mail once. 
And and quite frankly, simplify 

406
00:19:12,440 --> 00:19:14,540
for me in many cases. 
I'll say to my wife, Hey, 

407
00:19:14,550 --> 00:19:15,900
where's that favorite sweater of
mine? 

408
00:19:15,910 --> 00:19:17,850
Because the one you haven't 
wanted two years, I threw it 

409
00:19:17,860 --> 00:19:19,190
out. 
So I gotta run around the house 

410
00:19:19,200 --> 00:19:19,850
and touch. 
Things. 

411
00:19:19,860 --> 00:19:21,550
Once a year. 
Otherwise they disappear. 

412
00:19:21,560 --> 00:19:25,470
That's simplified too. 
To wrap up our conversation 

413
00:19:25,480 --> 00:19:28,780
today, I wanted to ask also 
about another piece of advice 

414
00:19:28,790 --> 00:19:31,320
that you've mentioned. 
And I think you said it comes 

415
00:19:31,330 --> 00:19:36,000
from your late father on, you 
know, you have to, to go slow to

416
00:19:36,010 --> 00:19:39,180
go fast. 
So we've kind of capped within a

417
00:19:39,190 --> 00:19:43,100
topic we were talking about, you
know, the, the law student 

418
00:19:43,110 --> 00:19:46,320
experience, the young associates
today, people coming into the, 

419
00:19:46,430 --> 00:19:48,760
the profession. 
You just shared a very 

420
00:19:48,770 --> 00:19:51,340
interesting point on it. 
It took you a few years to, to 

421
00:19:51,350 --> 00:19:53,920
get it figured out. 
And, and we all have this idea 

422
00:19:53,930 --> 00:19:56,580
that we have to have it figured 
out, you know, by by the time we

423
00:19:56,590 --> 00:19:58,300
leave law school. 
I think that there's a whole, 

424
00:19:58,310 --> 00:20:00,760
you know, the recruitment 
process, all of that really puts

425
00:20:00,770 --> 00:20:03,350
a lot of pressure in, makes it 
seem like if you don't get it 

426
00:20:03,360 --> 00:20:06,640
now, it might be too late. 
So I'd love to hear a little 

427
00:20:06,650 --> 00:20:08,370
more. 
A little bit more about how that

428
00:20:08,380 --> 00:20:11,520
has played the role in your life
and how you know sometimes going

429
00:20:11,530 --> 00:20:13,960
slow really made you could go 
faster. 

430
00:20:14,030 --> 00:20:17,420
So I think, you know, my dad had
a lot of great phrases. 

431
00:20:17,710 --> 00:20:20,800
I think you might have you might
have liked him, but and I don't 

432
00:20:20,810 --> 00:20:22,940
know where you have to go slow 
to go fast comes from. 

433
00:20:22,950 --> 00:20:25,070
I looked it up once. 
I mean, they use an auto racing 

434
00:20:25,080 --> 00:20:27,720
means you gotta go into a corner
slow as you can hit the epyx 

435
00:20:27,730 --> 00:20:30,120
fast so you have a maximum speed
at the end of the pitch. 

436
00:20:30,170 --> 00:20:33,840
I just take it to mean that if 
you're running your life at full

437
00:20:33,850 --> 00:20:38,100
bore at full intensity all the 
time such that you're just 

438
00:20:38,170 --> 00:20:41,100
crashing up against deadline 
after deadline after deadline, 

439
00:20:41,170 --> 00:20:44,630
that's just exhausting and you 
just won't have energy. 

440
00:20:44,640 --> 00:20:48,140
You won't have the reserve left 
to have the energy when you need

441
00:20:48,150 --> 00:20:50,420
it at something, you know, and a
trial. 

442
00:20:50,530 --> 00:20:54,050
You know, sometimes we do long 
cases and you have to go to bed 

443
00:20:54,060 --> 00:20:56,850
at 9:30 or 10:00 at night 
because you gotta get up early 

444
00:20:56,860 --> 00:21:00,210
in the morning and you can't, 
you can't stay up to midnight 

445
00:21:00,220 --> 00:21:02,270
seven days a week for five weeks
at a time. 

446
00:21:02,320 --> 00:21:04,990
And so I just think that and 
this, you know, fits into 

447
00:21:05,000 --> 00:21:08,610
bundling and outsourcing and 
boats and all that stuff. 

448
00:21:08,680 --> 00:21:10,370
Sometimes you just got to let 
things go. 

449
00:21:10,440 --> 00:21:13,830
So I don't have time to, I'd 
like to go see maybe a hockey 

450
00:21:13,840 --> 00:21:16,650
game or a baseball game or a 
football game or watch it. 

451
00:21:16,660 --> 00:21:19,500
I've just have to limit it 
because I, I need to save my 

452
00:21:19,510 --> 00:21:22,030
energy for myself. 
And I think that's really what I

453
00:21:22,040 --> 00:21:25,460
mean is just make sure you take 
time for yourself because that's

454
00:21:25,470 --> 00:21:28,650
all you have is your time. 
And if it's constantly being 

455
00:21:28,660 --> 00:21:31,650
chewed up by other people and 
stress, it's a really, really 

456
00:21:31,660 --> 00:21:34,250
tough life to live. 
But if you're taking care of 

457
00:21:34,330 --> 00:21:36,700
yourself, if you're sleeping and
you're taking time to get some 

458
00:21:36,710 --> 00:21:40,090
exercise and walking and most 
importantly spending time with 

459
00:21:40,100 --> 00:21:42,790
people that you love, then that 
you can never be faulted for 

460
00:21:42,800 --> 00:21:45,480
that or or guilty for that. 
And then when you really need to

461
00:21:45,490 --> 00:21:47,520
put the pedal down, when it's 
really stressful, you'll have 

462
00:21:47,530 --> 00:21:49,870
the energy to really give. 
It that's fantastic. 

463
00:21:49,880 --> 00:21:53,670
I'd hate to leave the podcast 
today without asking about, you 

464
00:21:53,680 --> 00:21:56,490
know, your, your experience at 
the Supreme Court as well. 

465
00:21:56,560 --> 00:21:59,990
So I'm wondering is, is that 
something that you know, you've 

466
00:22:00,000 --> 00:22:02,870
enjoyed quite a bit? 
Is there a huge difference for 

467
00:22:02,880 --> 00:22:04,780
you? 
I'm sure the stakes are higher 

468
00:22:04,790 --> 00:22:07,930
and, and there's this other 
parts, but really the the 

469
00:22:07,940 --> 00:22:11,710
standing on your feet and you 
know, is there quite a 

470
00:22:11,720 --> 00:22:14,130
difference for you when you're 
talking about a Supreme Court 

471
00:22:14,140 --> 00:22:17,610
case versus, you know, a case 
that is in a lower court? 

472
00:22:17,720 --> 00:22:20,190
Do you have any any comments 
about that? 

473
00:22:20,250 --> 00:22:23,540
Yeah, you know, I, I've been to 
the Supreme Court of Canada on 

474
00:22:23,550 --> 00:22:26,600
my feet once I lost the final or
we litigators like to say we 

475
00:22:26,610 --> 00:22:29,680
finished second, but it's a case
that I had won at first instance

476
00:22:29,690 --> 00:22:31,760
twice and twice in the quarter 
of appeal. 

477
00:22:31,810 --> 00:22:34,880
So to go to the Supreme Court of
Canada as a respondent was a 

478
00:22:34,890 --> 00:22:38,120
really tough experience for me. 
It kind of set me back when we 

479
00:22:38,130 --> 00:22:40,840
lost, to be honest with you. 
And so it's not something I go 

480
00:22:40,850 --> 00:22:45,320
back to often. 
I, John Laskin, he was now the 

481
00:22:45,330 --> 00:22:47,680
Federal Court of Appeal had 
mentioned to me, we talked 

482
00:22:47,690 --> 00:22:51,050
afterwards and he I think it was
he that mentioned a book by 

483
00:22:51,290 --> 00:22:53,640
Andre Agassi called Open Andre 
Agassi. 

484
00:22:53,650 --> 00:22:56,160
Every time we played tennis and 
we always face the same 

485
00:22:56,350 --> 00:22:59,380
competitor in the finals and 
always was finishing second to 

486
00:22:59,390 --> 00:23:02,880
him and how he sort of really it
ruined his confidence. 

487
00:23:02,950 --> 00:23:05,960
I read that book after the the, 
the Supreme Court of Canada. 

488
00:23:05,970 --> 00:23:08,620
I'd like to go back there. 
I'm not sure if any of my cases 

489
00:23:08,630 --> 00:23:10,520
are heading there times anytime 
soon. 

490
00:23:10,570 --> 00:23:14,020
I will say this, the most joy 
I've had has been in the Federal

491
00:23:14,030 --> 00:23:18,000
Court of Appeal after I've lost 
the case because you don't get 

492
00:23:18,010 --> 00:23:19,980
that pressure anywhere else 
having lost. 

493
00:23:20,040 --> 00:23:23,280
I've also been in the Federal 
Court of Appeal having one below

494
00:23:23,350 --> 00:23:25,400
and being the respondent and I 
enjoyed that. 

495
00:23:25,470 --> 00:23:30,800
But I think really I enjoy your 
cases at first instance where we

496
00:23:30,810 --> 00:23:35,000
put the stories together because
you kind of have to match up the

497
00:23:35,010 --> 00:23:39,540
truth that comes from warming to
get the science right with the 

498
00:23:39,550 --> 00:23:43,170
51% nature of the balance of 
probabilities and civil 

499
00:23:43,180 --> 00:23:44,960
litigation. 
And that's where the real 

500
00:23:44,970 --> 00:23:47,940
storytelling and the, and the, 
the trial techniques come in. 

501
00:23:48,050 --> 00:23:50,730
I will say this, you know, I 
think, I think in the future, 

502
00:23:50,740 --> 00:23:52,860
the professions can split a 
little bit in Canada. 

503
00:23:52,950 --> 00:23:55,480
They have appellate practice in 
the United States and you're 

504
00:23:55,490 --> 00:23:57,140
starting to see them now in 
Canada. 

505
00:23:57,150 --> 00:23:59,320
We have a very good appellate 
practice here with some of my 

506
00:23:59,330 --> 00:24:01,820
partners down the halls, some of
whom do IP. 

507
00:24:01,890 --> 00:24:04,020
And I think that'll, that'll 
change overtime. 

508
00:24:04,030 --> 00:24:06,300
But I think you'll find people 
will say, I'd rather be a trial 

509
00:24:06,310 --> 00:24:08,280
lawyer or I'd rather be an 
appellate lawyer. 

510
00:24:08,290 --> 00:24:10,560
I think now that I've headed 
into my 60s, I think I'd 

511
00:24:10,570 --> 00:24:12,740
probably say I'd rather, I'd 
rather the trial court. 

512
00:24:12,750 --> 00:24:15,000
It's a little bit more fun, a 
lot more work, but a little bit 

513
00:24:15,010 --> 00:24:16,860
more fun. 
Well, thank you once again for 

514
00:24:16,870 --> 00:24:19,820
for your time and for all the 
wonderful insights today and you

515
00:24:19,830 --> 00:24:21,360
really appreciate having you on 
the show. 

516
00:24:21,370 --> 00:24:24,270
Well, Claudia, thanks again so 
much and just really enjoy what 

517
00:24:24,280 --> 00:24:25,000
you're doing.