1 00:00:37,950 --> 00:00:41,540 Welcome to studying law around the world I'm Claudio Claus in 2 00:00:41,550 --> 00:00:44,440 each episode, I talk with lawyers, law students, and 3 00:00:44,450 --> 00:00:47,830 professors from different parts of the world to talk about legal 4 00:00:47,840 --> 00:00:51,120 education, careers, and what the profession looks like in real 5 00:00:51,130 --> 00:00:54,060 life we talk about the hard parts, the surprises, and the 6 00:00:54,070 --> 00:00:56,960 decisions that shaped their paths whether you're planning. 7 00:00:56,970 --> 00:01:00,160 To study abroad thinking about. Working in another legal system 8 00:01:00,230 --> 00:01:03,560 or just curious about how law works around the world? 9 00:01:03,810 --> 00:01:09,840 This podcast is for you. Today I'm interviewing Gregory 10 00:01:09,850 --> 00:01:12,420 Radzik. He has a very interesting area 11 00:01:12,430 --> 00:01:14,640 of law in which he works and studies. 12 00:01:14,650 --> 00:01:18,560 He's a fellow on the Centre for Space, Cyberspace and Data Law. 13 00:01:18,710 --> 00:01:22,400 He's also a PhD candidate at the Faculty of Law of Bond 14 00:01:22,410 --> 00:01:25,700 University. He holds a JD and LLM and is 15 00:01:25,710 --> 00:01:28,300 also an admitted barrister and solicitor in Alberta. 16 00:01:28,450 --> 00:01:30,940 Thank you so much for taking the time to join me today, Gregory. 17 00:01:30,950 --> 00:01:32,960 Happy to be here, very excited to talk to you. 18 00:01:33,030 --> 00:01:35,440 Thank you. And to start over podcast, I'd 19 00:01:35,450 --> 00:01:38,060 love for you to introduce yourself and maybe tell us a 20 00:01:38,070 --> 00:01:41,300 little bit about how did you find your way into international 21 00:01:41,310 --> 00:01:42,060 and space? Law. 22 00:01:42,070 --> 00:01:44,760 Yeah, I would love to. So my name is Gregory Radisic. 23 00:01:44,770 --> 00:01:47,130 I'm a Canadian lawyer. Besides what you mentioned, I'm 24 00:01:47,140 --> 00:01:49,320 also a teaching fellow at Bond University. 25 00:01:49,390 --> 00:01:52,910 Oh, now I'm I'm stepping to the roles of a of a teacher and 26 00:01:52,920 --> 00:01:55,630 teaching the next generation sharing my cautions. 27 00:01:55,800 --> 00:01:57,340 Alright. My work basically sits at the 28 00:01:57,350 --> 00:02:01,510 intersection of international law, regulation and legal 29 00:02:01,520 --> 00:02:04,490 governance. And all of that hinges on how 30 00:02:04,500 --> 00:02:07,450 quickly we're moving technologically around the 31 00:02:07,460 --> 00:02:09,690 world, especially in the aerospace industry. 32 00:02:09,740 --> 00:02:13,110 I didn't start in space. My background was initially in 33 00:02:13,160 --> 00:02:16,450 science, in corporate law and during law school. 34 00:02:16,460 --> 00:02:19,730 That's when these ideas started kind of becoming cultivated. 35 00:02:19,740 --> 00:02:23,430 I realized that ever became very interested in how law responds 36 00:02:24,080 --> 00:02:27,110 knowledge key moves faster than does right. 37 00:02:27,120 --> 00:02:30,250 So I got into space law basically just by luck. 38 00:02:30,260 --> 00:02:35,100 I was doing some internships at the UN and ended up going to do 39 00:02:35,110 --> 00:02:38,530 an internship at the UN space office called the United Nations 40 00:02:38,540 --> 00:02:42,000 Office of Outer Space Affairs, which sounds very, very 41 00:02:42,090 --> 00:02:45,660 impressive and exciting. But I realized doing policy work 42 00:02:45,670 --> 00:02:48,520 in legal work there was just kind of the same as anywhere 43 00:02:48,530 --> 00:02:50,940 else. You're trying to provide your 44 00:02:50,950 --> 00:02:53,940 clients with good, timely information. 45 00:02:53,950 --> 00:02:56,920 And if you can't find it, you're kind of doing your giving your 46 00:02:56,930 --> 00:02:59,080 best guess. And as I was working in that 47 00:02:59,090 --> 00:03:02,100 system, it was pretty visible. You're working in the threads 48 00:03:02,110 --> 00:03:06,500 that were made in the 1960s, some 1970s. 49 00:03:06,610 --> 00:03:10,580 But really, you know, last 50 years, there's been principles 50 00:03:10,590 --> 00:03:14,140 and guidelines being agreed upon, but not much in terms of 51 00:03:14,150 --> 00:03:17,760 hard international law in the treaty form. 52 00:03:17,850 --> 00:03:22,440 And that's what a mismatch because innovations move really 53 00:03:22,450 --> 00:03:24,200 well. You know, if you think about the 54 00:03:24,210 --> 00:03:27,260 first moon Lander versus one of the yes, so the rocket 55 00:03:27,270 --> 00:03:29,660 technology is the same, but the science so important, it's very 56 00:03:29,670 --> 00:03:32,500 different. I thought, well, why hasn't got 57 00:03:32,510 --> 00:03:34,500 caught up and that's when I got interested. 58 00:03:34,590 --> 00:03:37,960 I then was able to work at the European Space Agency in the 59 00:03:37,970 --> 00:03:41,060 office of the Director General, but really showed me the side of 60 00:03:41,070 --> 00:03:44,200 space diplomacy. And then I began kind of going 61 00:03:44,210 --> 00:03:46,330 all in. So I did my LLM, which is where 62 00:03:46,340 --> 00:03:47,940 we met. I'm at the University of Toronto 63 00:03:48,030 --> 00:03:52,500 and after that I am during that and after that I've been working 64 00:03:52,510 --> 00:03:55,380 pretty much pro bono in a number of international organizations 65 00:03:55,390 --> 00:03:58,680 helping them with their advocacy work, whether that's for all 66 00:03:58,690 --> 00:04:00,580 mankind when she mentioned which works. 67 00:04:00,650 --> 00:04:03,640 Do you advocate for protections and international legal 68 00:04:03,680 --> 00:04:06,440 protections for objects that are based on the moon? 69 00:04:06,510 --> 00:04:10,180 So think of the Apollo Lander or the first footprints or Luna 70 00:04:10,190 --> 00:04:13,160 two. We don't have any style treaty 71 00:04:13,230 --> 00:04:18,110 those objects or with the the centre of Centre for Space 72 00:04:18,120 --> 00:04:21,670 Cyberspace and Data Law, which is an Australian body that 73 00:04:21,680 --> 00:04:23,470 really is looking at the intersection of all of those 74 00:04:23,480 --> 00:04:26,950 items and all those technologies and seeing how can we ethically 75 00:04:27,020 --> 00:04:31,400 use data and AI and tech in the space industry. 76 00:04:31,580 --> 00:04:33,770 We think forward. So it's been really interesting. 77 00:04:33,820 --> 00:04:35,390 It's definitely an exciting career. 78 00:04:35,400 --> 00:04:38,650 You've talked to a lot of interesting people, but it's not 79 00:04:38,660 --> 00:04:41,690 rocket science like to say it's just international law. 80 00:04:41,700 --> 00:04:46,210 So yeah, that's a little bit about my story and my kind of 81 00:04:46,300 --> 00:04:47,530 upbringing in space law. I. 82 00:04:47,540 --> 00:04:48,520 Guess love that. Yeah. 83 00:04:48,530 --> 00:04:51,870 Thank you so much for sharing. It is kind of a niche area, 84 00:04:51,880 --> 00:04:53,550 right? I imagine that you know, from 85 00:04:53,560 --> 00:04:57,580 all your cohort of, of law colleagues that I don't imagine 86 00:04:57,590 --> 00:05:01,960 that that more than you and someone else might have been 87 00:05:01,970 --> 00:05:05,620 studying this area, which I find it like fascinating of how much 88 00:05:05,630 --> 00:05:07,120 you can do with a law degree always. 89 00:05:07,130 --> 00:05:10,420 And, and I'm curious to know as well, you know, you said it kind 90 00:05:10,430 --> 00:05:15,030 of happened to you, Esther. Now like over 100 interviews 91 00:05:15,040 --> 00:05:17,890 into podcast, I've, I've learned that there is a lot of people 92 00:05:17,900 --> 00:05:20,830 that would say things like I, I ended up choosing to go to law 93 00:05:20,840 --> 00:05:24,970 school because of XYZ and I stayed in the profession because 94 00:05:24,980 --> 00:05:27,890 of, you know, the disorder points. 95 00:05:27,960 --> 00:05:30,870 I'm curious as well when when talking about, you know, space 96 00:05:30,880 --> 00:05:33,870 law, you know, you mentioned a little bit of the, the path of 97 00:05:33,880 --> 00:05:36,010 how you got there. But I'm also curious to know a 98 00:05:36,020 --> 00:05:39,190 little more about like why did you decide to stay with this 99 00:05:39,200 --> 00:05:40,890 area of law? Yeah, great question. 100 00:05:41,010 --> 00:05:43,650 So not the first time I've been asked that question. 101 00:05:43,660 --> 00:05:47,960 I was working in an area of criminal law, broadly called 102 00:05:47,970 --> 00:05:51,390 national security law. And when I first stepped foot 103 00:05:51,400 --> 00:05:54,850 has a UN intern will not step foot says first started working, 104 00:05:54,860 --> 00:05:58,320 I guess as the UN intern. I was working for the terrorism 105 00:05:58,330 --> 00:06:01,740 prevention branch of the UNODC, which is the Office of Drugs. 106 00:06:01,750 --> 00:06:06,000 And that was really interesting. So passionate was going to law 107 00:06:06,010 --> 00:06:07,220 school. I was like, I wanna do this 108 00:06:07,230 --> 00:06:09,360 national security law stuff. It's really interesting. 109 00:06:09,370 --> 00:06:12,040 It's you know, I I want to work for my country. 110 00:06:12,050 --> 00:06:15,380 I would love to kind of help with that whole infrastructure. 111 00:06:15,390 --> 00:06:19,580 And I was working with chemical, biological, radiological and 112 00:06:19,590 --> 00:06:23,360 nuclear weapons prevention. So there's a few treaties that 113 00:06:23,370 --> 00:06:27,120 exist worldwide and we're getting countries in southern 114 00:06:27,130 --> 00:06:30,460 part of Africa to sign onto the treaties and have us planning 115 00:06:30,470 --> 00:06:34,160 large conferences and writing, editing large scale reports that 116 00:06:34,170 --> 00:06:36,340 are now published in the website was really exciting. 117 00:06:36,390 --> 00:06:39,560 But I realized that that area falls very pessimistic and it 118 00:06:39,570 --> 00:06:43,060 looked at what kind of the worst of humanity in a way, right. 119 00:06:43,070 --> 00:06:45,340 So you have these people and they're really trying their 120 00:06:45,350 --> 00:06:46,150 best. Yeah. 121 00:06:46,320 --> 00:06:49,690 Humanity is persistent and causing more and more problems. 122 00:06:49,700 --> 00:06:52,450 And it's a definitely a very needed area of law. 123 00:06:52,460 --> 00:06:54,130 Everything that they do is fantastic. 124 00:06:54,140 --> 00:06:56,170 And I would there again in a heartbeat. 125 00:06:56,180 --> 00:06:59,870 But I then space because it had a lot of the same elements that 126 00:06:59,880 --> 00:07:02,370 had national security elements that have a lot of defence 127 00:07:02,380 --> 00:07:05,030 considerations. You basically either work for a 128 00:07:05,040 --> 00:07:08,910 government or a large national organization or or a company 129 00:07:08,920 --> 00:07:11,150 that in turn has contracts with those players. 130 00:07:11,200 --> 00:07:13,850 But it's way more optimistic. You know, if you think about the 131 00:07:13,860 --> 00:07:17,040 major inflection points in history, the Cold War, for 132 00:07:17,050 --> 00:07:20,880 example, that was happening, but somehow Russia and the United 133 00:07:20,890 --> 00:07:23,560 States were eventually able to work together on projects like 134 00:07:23,570 --> 00:07:26,310 the International Space Centre and Space Station. 135 00:07:26,320 --> 00:07:30,690 And no matter how crazy things got on Earth, for whatever 136 00:07:30,700 --> 00:07:34,030 reason, they put those differences aside to work 137 00:07:34,040 --> 00:07:36,440 together in those domains. And that's only increased. 138 00:07:36,450 --> 00:07:38,850 You know, there are now way more spacefaring nations than there 139 00:07:38,860 --> 00:07:41,720 once were. You have China and Canada that 140 00:07:41,730 --> 00:07:45,300 are way more present emerging space nations that some 141 00:07:45,310 --> 00:07:50,060 countries are just Adelaide. And it really an area of law and 142 00:07:50,070 --> 00:07:53,910 an area in industry where you're trying to pull each other up and 143 00:07:53,920 --> 00:07:57,490 bring people with you for the technological innovations that 144 00:07:57,500 --> 00:07:59,470 exist and that come alongside space. 145 00:07:59,480 --> 00:08:03,950 So I found it very positive and that's why I made that shift. 146 00:08:03,960 --> 00:08:06,750 It motivates you. You work with variant trusting 147 00:08:06,760 --> 00:08:08,590 people. No, I'm very lucky. 148 00:08:08,600 --> 00:08:12,250 I can count many rocket scientists and people who own 149 00:08:12,330 --> 00:08:16,050 based companies that do everything from defence things 150 00:08:16,060 --> 00:08:19,010 to but I don't know, launching rockets in space. 151 00:08:19,020 --> 00:08:22,030 And they're my friends and I get to talk to them everyday and, 152 00:08:22,120 --> 00:08:24,810 you know, hear their legal problems and what they're 153 00:08:24,820 --> 00:08:26,190 dealing with. And it's kind of funny. 154 00:08:26,200 --> 00:08:28,950 At the end of the day, it's the same legal problems that have a 155 00:08:28,960 --> 00:08:32,360 start up for a coffee shop didn't have, you know, I'm 156 00:08:32,370 --> 00:08:34,150 having a procurement problem. I don't know how to get 157 00:08:34,159 --> 00:08:36,809 something across the border. I don't know where I should put 158 00:08:36,820 --> 00:08:42,220 my money or what, what I how do I attract someone to like it's 159 00:08:42,230 --> 00:08:44,920 all of these kind of very basic business fundamentals, but 160 00:08:44,930 --> 00:08:47,020 applied to a really interesting industry with. 161 00:08:47,850 --> 00:08:51,190 So yeah, it's been, it's been really fun and that's why I made 162 00:08:51,200 --> 00:08:53,710 that shift and that's why I've stayed in that niche. 163 00:08:54,010 --> 00:08:55,850 But you're very right. There's not many people doing it 164 00:08:55,860 --> 00:08:58,300 in Canada. I saw an interview with someone 165 00:08:58,310 --> 00:09:01,100 and it said there's a very generous handful now of space 166 00:09:01,110 --> 00:09:04,280 lawyers in Canada. And there's so, and that's two 167 00:09:04,290 --> 00:09:05,920 categories. There's the ones that have been 168 00:09:06,050 --> 00:09:08,840 teaching and are probably 60 plus now. 169 00:09:08,910 --> 00:09:10,860 And then now, which is really interesting. 170 00:09:10,870 --> 00:09:15,560 There's this new guard of very inspired kind of 20 to 30 year 171 00:09:15,570 --> 00:09:18,860 olds that are now seeing this as a, as a possible profession. 172 00:09:20,410 --> 00:09:22,280 And it's, it's really interesting when you go to these 173 00:09:22,290 --> 00:09:25,160 international forums and you go, oh, there's another one, there's 174 00:09:25,170 --> 00:09:27,810 another Canadian one there, there's another Australian one. 175 00:09:27,900 --> 00:09:32,850 But yes, it's been fairly very, very interesting exploring this 176 00:09:32,860 --> 00:09:35,390 niche and I definitely will be sticking with. 177 00:09:35,400 --> 00:09:38,570 It amazing, no very, very insightful to you to learn a 178 00:09:38,580 --> 00:09:41,030 little more about this. And I was doing a little bit of 179 00:09:41,180 --> 00:09:44,580 a research before us getting together here today and I saw 180 00:09:44,590 --> 00:09:48,570 that your specific research touches on on very big questions 181 00:09:48,580 --> 00:09:52,610 like lunar heritage, dark skies and peaceful uses of outer 182 00:09:52,620 --> 00:09:55,320 space. So I'm curious if you could tell 183 00:09:55,330 --> 00:09:58,510 us a little bit more about that and, and maybe even why those 184 00:09:58,520 --> 00:10:02,090 issues were really matter, you know, legal perspective and, and 185 00:10:02,100 --> 00:10:07,840 for like society more broadly. So all of those issues are about 186 00:10:07,850 --> 00:10:10,860 how should we as a global community treat a global 187 00:10:10,870 --> 00:10:13,830 Commons, right? So that's a, an area of the 188 00:10:13,840 --> 00:10:17,780 world where everyone, ideally everyone has some form of access 189 00:10:17,790 --> 00:10:22,920 to it, not just physically but technologically and also access 190 00:10:22,930 --> 00:10:26,420 to the benefits of it, right? So why should Canada fit from 191 00:10:26,430 --> 00:10:30,310 space more than, I don't know, Mozambique, typically, you know, 192 00:10:30,320 --> 00:10:33,530 they, we both have of opportunity to benefit from the 193 00:10:33,540 --> 00:10:37,260 resources that come out of space, benefit from technology 194 00:10:37,330 --> 00:10:40,590 that's used in space. So that's not necessarily how 195 00:10:40,600 --> 00:10:42,180 things have been working thus far. 196 00:10:42,190 --> 00:10:46,240 And that's really been motivating me to focus my 197 00:10:46,250 --> 00:10:49,680 writings in that area. Both disputes should be resolved 198 00:10:49,690 --> 00:10:54,160 in that area on ways in which diplomats and Vienna and Geneva, 199 00:10:54,170 --> 00:10:56,960 NY should be discussing these issues. 200 00:10:56,970 --> 00:11:00,240 I'll give you one example. So this week, very timely that 201 00:11:00,250 --> 00:11:03,220 you and I are talking this week, Elon Musk announced, well, not 202 00:11:03,230 --> 00:11:06,220 Elon Musk, but SpaceX announced that they've filed paperwork 203 00:11:06,230 --> 00:11:09,190 with the FCC to put a million satellites in orbit. 204 00:11:09,390 --> 00:11:13,470 For context, there's maybe 11 to 12,000 satellites in orbit right 205 00:11:13,480 --> 00:11:15,240 now. So right now when you look at 206 00:11:15,250 --> 00:11:19,100 the night sky, you don't really, maybe you'll see some things 207 00:11:19,110 --> 00:11:21,320 from a city, you might see something moving. 208 00:11:21,330 --> 00:11:25,560 And if you go into the rider far north in Canada, you'd 209 00:11:25,570 --> 00:11:27,000 definitely see some things moving. 210 00:11:27,110 --> 00:11:29,720 But when it comes to 1,000,000 satellites, you'll look up and 211 00:11:29,730 --> 00:11:33,330 you'll see 20,000 at any given spot where you are. 212 00:11:33,370 --> 00:11:35,460 It will completely change what the night sky looks like. 213 00:11:35,470 --> 00:11:39,000 So for the first time in human history, the next generation 214 00:11:39,010 --> 00:11:42,190 will have the same view of the night sky as the current one if 215 00:11:42,200 --> 00:11:45,340 this plan goes through. I'm not saying it should, not 216 00:11:45,350 --> 00:11:48,300 saying it shouldn't, but that's a consideration that needs to be 217 00:11:48,310 --> 00:11:51,340 made on, you know, is there some way we can mitigate that? 218 00:11:51,390 --> 00:11:53,780 Who allows that? He filed paperwork with the 219 00:11:53,790 --> 00:11:55,380 United States. Is that all you need to do? 220 00:11:55,430 --> 00:11:59,020 Because it's going to impact a child in the Inuit who maybe 221 00:11:59,030 --> 00:12:01,780 uses the night sky for six months of the year to find their 222 00:12:01,790 --> 00:12:06,020 way across the Arctic and hunt, or it might affect someone in 223 00:12:06,030 --> 00:12:08,820 South America because they'll now have an impacted view. 224 00:12:08,870 --> 00:12:11,140 Right. And, and those are almost more 225 00:12:11,150 --> 00:12:16,050 like social sociocultural questions of like, what changes 226 00:12:16,060 --> 00:12:18,230 when, what changes for the next generation? 227 00:12:18,240 --> 00:12:21,340 And that's the same with my work with Franklin on Lunar Heritage. 228 00:12:21,410 --> 00:12:24,720 Do we want a legal regime where it's finders keepers? 229 00:12:24,790 --> 00:12:27,320 If my company is created tomorrow to go to the moon, 230 00:12:27,400 --> 00:12:30,830 bring back every artifact from every mission that's happened in 231 00:12:30,840 --> 00:12:33,390 the past 7080 years and put those into auction. 232 00:12:33,460 --> 00:12:34,830 Is that something that should happen? 233 00:12:34,900 --> 00:12:37,900 Should that not be in a museum? And you've you've kind of been 234 00:12:37,910 --> 00:12:41,650 seeing if you were to do a quick Google search, you'd be seeing 235 00:12:41,660 --> 00:12:45,720 overtime more and more of these kind of space relics finding 236 00:12:45,730 --> 00:12:49,610 their way into it makes you a lot of money. 237 00:12:49,620 --> 00:12:52,230 If anything has been to the moon and come back, even if it's a 238 00:12:52,240 --> 00:12:55,230 bolt or you know, you'll see some funny things will be like 239 00:12:55,240 --> 00:12:59,330 piece of insulation from the Apollo mission or something and 240 00:12:59,380 --> 00:13:01,410 it'll go for thousands and thousands of dollars. 241 00:13:01,420 --> 00:13:03,070 So you can imagine the profits to be made. 242 00:13:03,120 --> 00:13:07,770 But what do we lose as a human species if I land my rocket next 243 00:13:07,780 --> 00:13:11,800 to the sender and I wipe footprint that was on the move, 244 00:13:12,010 --> 00:13:14,120 right? Should we not protect that area? 245 00:13:14,170 --> 00:13:17,550 Should we not, I don't know, save it to inspire the next 246 00:13:17,560 --> 00:13:19,520 generation in some way, shape or form? 247 00:13:19,590 --> 00:13:22,580 How that looks like right now is to be determined. 248 00:13:22,590 --> 00:13:25,980 But, you know, these are questions that 20 years ago, 249 00:13:25,990 --> 00:13:29,540 you, you probably talked to your law professor or your lawyer 250 00:13:29,550 --> 00:13:31,380 friends and they'd be rolling their eyes out. 251 00:13:31,450 --> 00:13:33,660 And now it's genuine conversations that are 252 00:13:33,670 --> 00:13:35,460 happening. You know, we have the first 253 00:13:35,470 --> 00:13:38,420 lunar mission in decades going to the moon. 254 00:13:38,490 --> 00:13:40,220 That was supposed to be this coming week. 255 00:13:40,230 --> 00:13:41,460 It's not been rescheduled tomorrow. 256 00:13:41,470 --> 00:13:43,460 Who knows if it'll happen on time, But they're going to the 257 00:13:43,470 --> 00:13:44,880 moon and back for the first time. 258 00:13:44,950 --> 00:13:47,800 They want boots on the ground in the coming years. 259 00:13:47,910 --> 00:13:50,160 They want to establish things like lunar bases. 260 00:13:50,170 --> 00:13:53,170 And a lot of these conversations are ongoing. 261 00:13:53,180 --> 00:13:57,170 They're moving slowly, but it's not unless people advocate for 262 00:13:57,180 --> 00:13:59,590 some change that those perspectives will be included in 263 00:13:59,600 --> 00:14:02,790 what the future of space look, impacts that can have on such a 264 00:14:02,800 --> 00:14:06,400 global, global area of law. And that has very global 265 00:14:06,410 --> 00:14:09,330 implications for everyone. Wow, extremely insightful, Very, 266 00:14:09,340 --> 00:14:11,730 very interesting to to hear a little bit about that. 267 00:14:11,740 --> 00:14:14,410 And it really gets you thinking. I can see how it's really 268 00:14:14,420 --> 00:14:18,010 fascinating to to work with that and get to discuss these topics 269 00:14:18,020 --> 00:14:20,050 every day. Something that I always like to 270 00:14:20,060 --> 00:14:23,610 bring up to the podcast here. So as, as you might know, a lot 271 00:14:23,620 --> 00:14:26,830 of the, the listeners here in the podcast are early career 272 00:14:26,840 --> 00:14:29,450 professionals and, and some of the questions that I end up 273 00:14:29,460 --> 00:14:32,190 getting every once in a while where about, you know, ask 274 00:14:32,200 --> 00:14:34,970 lawyers a little more about, you know, their careers and, and how 275 00:14:34,980 --> 00:14:37,810 they go about doing things. And something that I, and I 276 00:14:37,820 --> 00:14:40,560 thought it was quite impressive is that you, you're balancing, 277 00:14:40,570 --> 00:14:44,260 balancing, you know, legal practice, you're teaching your 278 00:14:44,270 --> 00:14:48,020 studying PhD, you are, you know, doing research and policy, 279 00:14:48,110 --> 00:14:50,820 policy work. So I wanted to ask you a little 280 00:14:50,830 --> 00:14:53,180 more about, you know, how do. You find balance. 281 00:14:53,190 --> 00:14:57,270 And how do you decide where to focus your energy and and maybe 282 00:14:57,280 --> 00:15:00,460 you know, what kinds of trade-offs do you do know to be 283 00:15:00,470 --> 00:15:02,790 able to handle all of these things at the same? 284 00:15:02,800 --> 00:15:04,820 Time. Good question. 285 00:15:04,910 --> 00:15:08,300 I think in law school, and you might have experienced this 286 00:15:08,310 --> 00:15:13,080 yourself, Claudio, is there's a really efficient funnel that's 287 00:15:13,090 --> 00:15:17,340 been made for students entering law school, getting a job at a 288 00:15:17,350 --> 00:15:20,700 law firm, usually either corporate side or criminal 289 00:15:20,710 --> 00:15:24,920 family side articling and then ideally staying in that job 290 00:15:25,010 --> 00:15:27,100 until you retire 40 years from now. 291 00:15:27,110 --> 00:15:29,440 And that's that's worked for a long time. 292 00:15:29,510 --> 00:15:32,720 Occasionally you have people that push outside of that model, 293 00:15:32,730 --> 00:15:36,660 even just on a basic level, if you think 100 years ago, there 294 00:15:36,670 --> 00:15:40,320 are people who said no, instead it'll be a politician or even 295 00:15:40,330 --> 00:15:43,280 working for the government in certain ways that are unique. 296 00:15:43,320 --> 00:15:47,030 So it was interesting school, some professors, lot of people 297 00:15:47,120 --> 00:15:50,430 didn't, a lot of peers did not. And they go, how are you going 298 00:15:50,440 --> 00:15:53,290 to make a living working in international law? 299 00:15:53,860 --> 00:15:56,050 You'd hear phrases like international laws not really a 300 00:15:56,060 --> 00:15:58,350 thing. So it's corporate international 301 00:15:58,360 --> 00:16:02,230 law or you know, you have to pick up a niche and that's fair. 302 00:16:02,240 --> 00:16:05,090 But international law is definitely a thing and it's 303 00:16:05,100 --> 00:16:08,250 definitely a thing that a lot of people pursue and do. 304 00:16:08,310 --> 00:16:13,570 I find that you have to make a decision, you have to have a 305 00:16:13,580 --> 00:16:16,430 sense of certainty in yourself, and then you just have to go for 306 00:16:16,440 --> 00:16:19,370 it and persevere. And it takes years and years, to 307 00:16:19,380 --> 00:16:24,940 be frank, but if you keep applying for, you know, for, for 308 00:16:24,950 --> 00:16:28,820 scholarships to go and attend some of these conferences or 309 00:16:28,890 --> 00:16:34,100 apply for internships or papers, well, you might find yourself in 310 00:16:34,230 --> 00:16:38,300 rooms and then eventually you'll realize maybe that is the place 311 00:16:38,310 --> 00:16:40,730 I should be. And I do now blog in it because 312 00:16:40,740 --> 00:16:43,140 I've, I've been in it one time. So the second time is not so 313 00:16:43,150 --> 00:16:46,930 hard. And yeah, so I think I'm, I'm 314 00:16:46,940 --> 00:16:49,950 struggling to remember your question, but I think moving 315 00:16:49,960 --> 00:16:53,660 from law school to practice is challenging no matter what. 316 00:16:53,670 --> 00:16:57,510 And chewing that in an area that's unique and kind of less 317 00:16:57,520 --> 00:17:02,090 frequently followed requires a a lot of a step upper lip, a lot 318 00:17:02,100 --> 00:17:04,530 of perseverance, a lot of adaptation. 319 00:17:04,540 --> 00:17:07,089 So how have I done? It was your question. 320 00:17:07,270 --> 00:17:12,599 And I find that I'm very curious and I can get very bored easily. 321 00:17:12,650 --> 00:17:16,680 And that was one of the things I didn't like with a purely 322 00:17:16,690 --> 00:17:19,460 corporate league practice. I used to work at a law firm and 323 00:17:20,010 --> 00:17:22,900 while it was a fantastic learning opportunity, let me 324 00:17:22,910 --> 00:17:28,010 kind of what areas I I'm not interested in great skills, you 325 00:17:28,020 --> 00:17:30,450 know, so I think you need to learn somewhere. 326 00:17:30,460 --> 00:17:32,770 I'm choosing where you articles always very important. 327 00:17:32,780 --> 00:17:35,470 If you can do that in a large national firm, what an amazing 328 00:17:35,480 --> 00:17:37,750 opportunity to learn, but it doesn't mean you have to stay 329 00:17:37,760 --> 00:17:41,400 there for the rest of your life. So when I right now I work 330 00:17:41,410 --> 00:17:45,580 remotely and I work remotely for a government organization in 331 00:17:45,590 --> 00:17:48,610 Alberta. I also do all my pro bono work 332 00:17:48,680 --> 00:17:50,680 kind of around the clock, whatever people are available 333 00:17:50,690 --> 00:17:53,010 because I am now based in Brisbane, Australia. 334 00:17:53,080 --> 00:17:55,730 And there are others that are, I work with people in Europe, I 335 00:17:55,740 --> 00:17:57,570 work with people in North America, I work with people in 336 00:17:57,580 --> 00:17:59,900 South America. So a lot of different time zones 337 00:17:59,910 --> 00:18:04,060 and, and scheduling conflicts, but you know, you wake up early 338 00:18:04,070 --> 00:18:06,520 and you have a meeting at 4:30 in the morning, but that means 339 00:18:06,530 --> 00:18:12,090 you get to meet with a rocket scientist and Alabama and a 340 00:18:12,150 --> 00:18:15,670 startup in Vienna. That that's really interesting. 341 00:18:15,680 --> 00:18:17,270 It's really cool. And you put your passions and 342 00:18:17,280 --> 00:18:19,790 then the the teaching and everything kind of fits in 343 00:18:20,340 --> 00:18:22,700 conversation based on legal profession. 344 00:18:22,750 --> 00:18:24,760 You know, it's maybe it's a bit early for me. 345 00:18:24,770 --> 00:18:26,800 I just turned 30. But like, the idea of giving 346 00:18:26,810 --> 00:18:30,620 back and helping to, again, bring people with you is very 347 00:18:30,630 --> 00:18:36,150 ingrained in space industry, like I said, And it's also very 348 00:18:36,160 --> 00:18:39,470 ingrained in the legal industry, although sometimes some lawyers 349 00:18:39,480 --> 00:18:41,780 do it more than others. So I always find it very 350 00:18:41,790 --> 00:18:44,450 important to try to share the knowledge that I've gained, try 351 00:18:44,460 --> 00:18:46,930 to share the insights of my research, connect with as many 352 00:18:46,940 --> 00:18:49,480 students as possible, and then bring them into the fold if 353 00:18:49,490 --> 00:18:52,470 there's an opportunity to do so. So that's why I have that 354 00:18:52,480 --> 00:18:56,810 teaching elements and lecturing elements to my career. 355 00:18:56,900 --> 00:18:59,730 But yeah, like, I don't think a legal practice has to be just 356 00:18:59,740 --> 00:19:02,530 one thing. I think you really do benefit 357 00:19:02,540 --> 00:19:04,750 from having multiple different avenues in it. 358 00:19:04,760 --> 00:19:07,830 And, you know, you have the typical corporate job, you have 359 00:19:07,840 --> 00:19:11,450 some promo work, you have some advocacy work and teaching work. 360 00:19:11,460 --> 00:19:13,470 And that really just makes you a better lawyer, I think, at the 361 00:19:13,480 --> 00:19:16,030 end of the day, because you learn from people in each one of 362 00:19:16,040 --> 00:19:19,820 those spheres. Alright, I had two whatever 363 00:19:19,830 --> 00:19:21,630 problems in front of you. Because really, at the end of 364 00:19:21,640 --> 00:19:24,100 the day, law is just solving people's issues and problems. 365 00:19:24,170 --> 00:19:25,660 It's trying to make it simple for them. 366 00:19:25,670 --> 00:19:29,040 So yeah, that's kind of been the process going forward. 367 00:19:29,090 --> 00:19:31,640 It can be chaotic, but it's definitely worthwhile. 368 00:19:31,650 --> 00:19:33,580 It's worth the early mornings or late nights. 369 00:19:33,950 --> 00:19:34,770 Every single. Time. 370 00:19:34,830 --> 00:19:36,860 Fantastic. They're very happy to hear that 371 00:19:36,870 --> 00:19:38,360 it. It's funny you just mentioned 372 00:19:38,370 --> 00:19:40,850 that because then I realized that it's probably like the 373 00:19:40,860 --> 00:19:43,200 morning for you now. 7:00 PM Toronto. 374 00:19:43,210 --> 00:19:46,160 Time what? 10 AM Australia. 375 00:19:46,230 --> 00:19:48,600 Yes, I'm in the future, so for me it's tomorrow. 376 00:19:48,650 --> 00:19:51,280 It's always interesting Yeah, scheduling can be rough because 377 00:19:51,290 --> 00:19:54,300 you go let's eat Friday at this time and they go Friday your 378 00:19:54,310 --> 00:19:56,560 time or my time because for me it's Saturday. 379 00:19:56,570 --> 00:19:57,510 It makes. A big difference. 380 00:19:57,520 --> 00:19:59,050 Yeah, some problems. You always makes a. 381 00:19:59,060 --> 00:20:00,660 Difference. Yeah, that's awesome. 382 00:20:00,920 --> 00:20:04,310 To to wrap up today's episode, I wanted to ask you, you know, if 383 00:20:04,320 --> 00:20:07,430 I were a lawsuit and listening to this episode and and I went 384 00:20:07,440 --> 00:20:10,570 to explore a little bit of space law, what what would you give as 385 00:20:10,580 --> 00:20:13,110 an advice for somebody who wants to have a taste of it? 386 00:20:13,120 --> 00:20:15,210 You will not sure if I want you to do this for the rest of my 387 00:20:15,220 --> 00:20:18,070 life, but thought I want to like dig in a little bit. 388 00:20:18,080 --> 00:20:22,010 What are a few maybe like papers to read or associations should 389 00:20:22,020 --> 00:20:23,750 being touched with and attend events of? 390 00:20:23,820 --> 00:20:26,750 Are there a few you know things that you would recommend? 391 00:20:26,840 --> 00:20:29,420 Yes, so it's funny. My advice would be don't start 392 00:20:29,430 --> 00:20:32,210 by getting into space law. See see more broadly what you 393 00:20:32,220 --> 00:20:34,180 like. So one take that weird course, 394 00:20:34,190 --> 00:20:35,350 then none of your friends are taking. 395 00:20:35,360 --> 00:20:37,370 If that's of interest to you, maybe start with an 396 00:20:37,380 --> 00:20:39,550 international law course. There's always a chapter on 397 00:20:39,560 --> 00:20:41,050 space. There's always a chapter on 398 00:20:41,260 --> 00:20:43,790 maritime law. There's a lot of Antarctic, 399 00:20:43,870 --> 00:20:46,440 Arctic conversations. A lot of these deal with global 400 00:20:46,450 --> 00:20:49,000 Commons. Even cyberspace in a way deals 401 00:20:49,010 --> 00:20:52,220 with global Commons. Start, start broad and then get 402 00:20:52,230 --> 00:20:54,220 more specific based on what you're reading, what you're 403 00:20:54,230 --> 00:20:56,540 liking. If you know you want to go into 404 00:20:56,550 --> 00:20:59,460 the space industry, Canada has such a vibrant space industry 405 00:20:59,530 --> 00:21:02,380 and a lot of the conferences are awhile. 406 00:21:02,390 --> 00:21:06,700 There's one called SEDS, SDS. I do not know the acronym, but 407 00:21:06,710 --> 00:21:11,610 it is basically geared up youth. There's another organization 408 00:21:11,620 --> 00:21:14,660 that's more international that always accepting people to 409 00:21:14,670 --> 00:21:17,780 participate in their their working groups and their 410 00:21:17,790 --> 00:21:19,680 conferences and it's called SG AC. 411 00:21:19,690 --> 00:21:21,780 So the Space Generation Advisory Council. 412 00:21:21,850 --> 00:21:25,020 And it's a Advisory Council that was made by the United Nations 413 00:21:25,230 --> 00:21:28,120 Committee on the Peaceful Uses of Outer Space and you and USA 414 00:21:28,190 --> 00:21:30,440 Office of Outer Space Affairs to really get the youth 415 00:21:30,450 --> 00:21:32,740 perspective. And they have legal working 416 00:21:32,750 --> 00:21:36,420 groups, they have industry working groups, They talk about 417 00:21:36,430 --> 00:21:39,920 policy, they talk about science, but it's really people under the 418 00:21:39,930 --> 00:21:44,060 age of 35 or younger. They have a conference every 419 00:21:44,070 --> 00:21:47,100 year that lines up with something called the 420 00:21:47,110 --> 00:21:49,860 International Astronautical Congress, which is the largest 421 00:21:49,870 --> 00:21:52,310 space conference in the world. It's usually the first 3 days of 422 00:21:52,320 --> 00:21:55,080 that and then for the rest of it you get to enjoy the larger 423 00:21:55,090 --> 00:21:58,700 comfort it will. How many people thought likely 424 00:21:58,710 --> 00:22:03,740 would become lifelong friends? I went last year and it's a 425 00:22:03,750 --> 00:22:07,430 fantastic entry point because there are some people who are 426 00:22:07,470 --> 00:22:11,540 working at, I don't know, Blue Origin in the United States and 427 00:22:11,550 --> 00:22:14,740 have had long careers and there are 34 and then there's the 428 00:22:14,750 --> 00:22:17,630 student that's 19 going. I think I'm just really 429 00:22:17,640 --> 00:22:19,760 interested in this. So I wanted to come and check it 430 00:22:19,770 --> 00:22:21,640 out. And they have fantastic 431 00:22:21,650 --> 00:22:24,450 scholarships full, you know, they'll pay for all your 432 00:22:24,460 --> 00:22:26,900 expenses, flights, everything to get out there. 433 00:22:26,910 --> 00:22:29,840 So as a space lawyer, you know, a young lawyer is usually 434 00:22:29,850 --> 00:22:33,760 between the ages of what, 21 in Canada and 35? 435 00:22:33,770 --> 00:22:37,420 So that's an Ave. where you can say, I really want to break into 436 00:22:37,430 --> 00:22:40,050 the space. Here's everything I've done in 437 00:22:40,060 --> 00:22:41,500 the past. I want to apply. 438 00:22:41,510 --> 00:22:43,060 I don't know, corporate law to space. 439 00:22:43,070 --> 00:22:45,760 Realistically, space law is just a combination of all these laws 440 00:22:45,770 --> 00:22:50,420 that exist on Earth and how it's applied into the space industry 441 00:22:50,680 --> 00:22:52,300 or is the global Commons more generally. 442 00:22:52,310 --> 00:22:58,210 So let's say you're interested in AI, mean AI or it's funny, 443 00:22:58,220 --> 00:23:02,250 like criminal law. Now Canada has a law about I 444 00:23:02,260 --> 00:23:04,310 think committing murder on the moon. 445 00:23:04,320 --> 00:23:07,470 And they changed their they changed their rules now in the 446 00:23:07,480 --> 00:23:11,860 Criminal Code to include kind of out of the country rules for 447 00:23:11,870 --> 00:23:14,910 that will apply to a lunar base one day or to the ISS. 448 00:23:14,960 --> 00:23:18,690 So there's a lot of ways you can combine law in unique ways with 449 00:23:18,700 --> 00:23:20,450 space. And those are conversations that 450 00:23:20,460 --> 00:23:22,430 really for the most part haven't happened yet. 451 00:23:22,440 --> 00:23:23,690 And you can get involved those lists. 452 00:23:23,700 --> 00:23:26,810 So those are great organizations where you dip your toe in very 453 00:23:26,860 --> 00:23:29,830 low, if no financial barrier to entry. 454 00:23:29,840 --> 00:23:32,190 And that's fantastic. And on a final note, the 455 00:23:32,280 --> 00:23:35,130 Canadian Space Agency has also fantastic scholarships. 456 00:23:35,560 --> 00:23:39,350 So anytime they have a grant and scholarship team, anytime that 457 00:23:39,360 --> 00:23:44,580 you write a paper or I get asked or pitch a presentation at one 458 00:23:44,590 --> 00:23:46,800 of these larger conferences, you can alley to them. 459 00:23:47,230 --> 00:23:51,730 Judith and again stipends to fly out treats in or if it's in 460 00:23:51,740 --> 00:23:54,320 Canada, they'll likely give you a statement for accommodation 461 00:23:54,330 --> 00:23:57,040 for food. And that's their way of really 462 00:23:57,050 --> 00:24:01,460 incentivizing and encouraging exploration in space from an 463 00:24:01,470 --> 00:24:03,220 academic standpoint for for youth. 464 00:24:03,230 --> 00:24:06,710 So they're also a fantastic Ave. Canada to to look at and 465 00:24:06,720 --> 00:24:07,980 consider. Fantastic. 466 00:24:07,990 --> 00:24:11,380 I really appreciate you taking the time to come into podcast, 467 00:24:11,390 --> 00:24:14,640 share a little bit more about this fascinating area and and 468 00:24:14,650 --> 00:24:17,060 also the very interesting projects you're you're 469 00:24:17,070 --> 00:24:19,880 researching and working on. And I hope you all enjoyed the 470 00:24:19,890 --> 00:24:21,660 episode and I'll see you on the next. 471 00:24:22,020 --> 00:24:22,890 Thank you so much. Bye.