1 00:00:12,870 --> 00:00:14,800 Welcome to Studying Law Around the World. 2 00:00:15,010 --> 00:00:17,860 I'm Claudio Claus. In each episode, I talk with 3 00:00:17,870 --> 00:00:20,840 lawyers, law students, and professors from different parts 4 00:00:20,850 --> 00:00:24,740 of the world to talk about legal education, careers, and what the 5 00:00:24,750 --> 00:00:26,420 profession looks like in real life. 6 00:00:26,430 --> 00:00:29,470 We talk about the hard parts, the surprises, and the decisions 7 00:00:29,480 --> 00:00:32,259 that shaped their paths. Whether you're planning to study 8 00:00:32,270 --> 00:00:35,520 abroad, thinking about working in another legal system, or just 9 00:00:35,530 --> 00:00:39,640 curious about how law works around the world, this podcast 10 00:00:39,650 --> 00:00:47,080 is for you. Whether you're studying law in 11 00:00:47,090 --> 00:00:50,440 Mumbai or practicing in Manhattan, Rev can help you 12 00:00:50,450 --> 00:00:53,500 transcribe and analyze all your case materials with 13 00:00:53,510 --> 00:01:03,920 verifiablecitations.learnmore@rev.com. Today we have the opportunity to 14 00:01:03,970 --> 00:01:08,590 receive Hannah Mull. She has an incredible story and 15 00:01:08,600 --> 00:01:12,230 so many fun things that she's shared with us in the past. 16 00:01:12,300 --> 00:01:15,250 And I'm so excited to have her here in the podcast to talk 17 00:01:15,260 --> 00:01:19,110 about her legal career, how she's being so involved with the 18 00:01:19,160 --> 00:01:22,850 legal community, and also how she found the incredible and 19 00:01:22,860 --> 00:01:27,110 creative ways to get, you know, her where she she wanted to be 20 00:01:27,120 --> 00:01:29,230 and all that. So thank you so much for joining 21 00:01:29,240 --> 00:01:31,190 us today. Thank you so much for having me, 22 00:01:31,200 --> 00:01:33,170 Claudio. It's it's an honor to be on your 23 00:01:33,180 --> 00:01:36,510 podcast. I for one, I'm an avid listener 24 00:01:36,700 --> 00:01:38,770 and I absolutely enjoy listening to. 25 00:01:38,780 --> 00:01:41,690 It I really appreciate it. Thank you for for coming in And 26 00:01:41,870 --> 00:01:44,640 to start this off, I'd love for you to introduce yourself to 27 00:01:44,650 --> 00:01:46,420 your listeners. So can you tell us a little 28 00:01:46,430 --> 00:01:50,610 about yourself? Yes, so my name is Hannah. 29 00:01:50,620 --> 00:01:52,400 I'm an internationally trained lawyer. 30 00:01:52,470 --> 00:01:57,640 I landed in Canada in 2020 was he would my masters from 31 00:01:57,650 --> 00:02:01,140 University of Toronto. It was not GPL M, it was a 32 00:02:01,150 --> 00:02:05,000 general LM. After that and while I was at 33 00:02:05,010 --> 00:02:08,430 UTI started working as a research assistant to Professor 34 00:02:08,440 --> 00:02:11,060 Emily Satterwhite in tax law and policy. 35 00:02:11,130 --> 00:02:15,600 After I my solicitors and barristers exam, I also got an 36 00:02:15,610 --> 00:02:18,160 articling position with the region of Durham. 37 00:02:18,270 --> 00:02:22,800 I was called to the bar in 2023. After that, I landed my current 38 00:02:22,810 --> 00:02:28,650 role as a worker advisor and then I started mentoring and 39 00:02:28,660 --> 00:02:33,190 tutoring internationally trained lawyers for Ontario bar exam. 40 00:02:33,280 --> 00:02:36,350 And then that ventured in, you know, that took off. 41 00:02:36,360 --> 00:02:39,990 And then I started with Durham Region Law Association. 42 00:02:40,000 --> 00:02:44,430 I got on the board and was more involved with the new lawyers, 43 00:02:44,440 --> 00:02:46,750 with the membership committees, so on and so forth. 44 00:02:46,840 --> 00:02:50,870 And yeah, and now started accepting new files under my law 45 00:02:50,880 --> 00:02:53,970 firm, Moreland Shiver Legal Professional Corporation. 46 00:02:54,040 --> 00:03:00,940 So that's about. If you're an internationally 47 00:03:00,950 --> 00:03:04,280 trained lawyer or law student working in or trying to break 48 00:03:04,290 --> 00:03:08,660 into an English speaking common law system, you know that legal 49 00:03:08,670 --> 00:03:12,100 writing is one of the biggest challenges and one of the most 50 00:03:12,110 --> 00:03:16,060 important skills to master. That's where Grammatica comes 51 00:03:16,070 --> 00:03:18,250 in. I'm Rebecca Lockwood, the 52 00:03:18,260 --> 00:03:21,100 lawyer, mediator, educator and founder of Grammatica 53 00:03:21,110 --> 00:03:24,570 International. We help lawyers and law students 54 00:03:24,580 --> 00:03:29,110 to write sharper, speak clearer, and land more interviews with on 55 00:03:29,120 --> 00:03:33,080 demand online courses, live workshops and one-on-one 56 00:03:33,090 --> 00:03:35,850 consulting designed just for legal professionals. 57 00:03:36,200 --> 00:03:39,300 I have worked with so many lawyers like you who are 58 00:03:39,310 --> 00:03:42,830 exceptionally smart, qualified and capable, but need some 59 00:03:42,840 --> 00:03:45,790 guidance to really stand out in a competitive legal market. 60 00:03:45,940 --> 00:03:48,590 And I get it myself, having lived and worked in five 61 00:03:48,600 --> 00:03:51,740 countries during my 17 years in law and education. 62 00:03:52,420 --> 00:03:54,870 Whether you're looking to sharpen your writing skills 63 00:03:54,880 --> 00:03:58,750 generally, refresh your CD, or draft an application for a law 64 00:03:58,760 --> 00:04:03,740 program, Grammatica can help. Visit Grammatico to get started. 65 00:04:09,840 --> 00:04:12,950 And you've had quite the journey across, you know, 2 legal 66 00:04:12,960 --> 00:04:15,850 systems. But one of the stories that you 67 00:04:15,860 --> 00:04:18,790 told me in the past that I really liked was how you found 68 00:04:18,800 --> 00:04:22,450 your articling position. And I'd love for you to tell a 69 00:04:22,460 --> 00:04:26,590 little bit about that story. You know, right now when I talk 70 00:04:26,600 --> 00:04:29,460 about it, it almost seems like Angel to me as well. 71 00:04:29,650 --> 00:04:33,600 I actually found my articulating position in a newsletter. 72 00:04:33,930 --> 00:04:38,100 OK, and let that sink in because the position that actually found 73 00:04:38,110 --> 00:04:42,230 and finally the place that accepted me, you know, I had 74 00:04:42,240 --> 00:04:46,510 applied to almost 150 positions, but the one that I found and the 75 00:04:46,520 --> 00:04:51,910 one that accepted me was not on I, I did not find it on any of 76 00:04:51,920 --> 00:04:54,490 the regular job sites. It was in a newsletter. 77 00:04:54,540 --> 00:04:57,170 So The thing is that it was with region of Durham. 78 00:04:57,180 --> 00:04:59,130 So it is an upper tier municipality. 79 00:04:59,180 --> 00:05:02,710 The thing is that in India, municipality have constitutional 80 00:05:02,720 --> 00:05:05,810 status the way it you know, in, in Canada, we don't have that. 81 00:05:06,140 --> 00:05:10,150 And my first interaction with municipalities in India was not 82 00:05:10,160 --> 00:05:13,370 as a lawyer, but as an investment banker when we were 83 00:05:13,380 --> 00:05:17,160 designing municipal bonds and we were listening with the 84 00:05:17,170 --> 00:05:20,240 regulator to see if municipalities could have their 85 00:05:20,250 --> 00:05:24,250 own bonds, considering they have to be very creative in in their 86 00:05:24,260 --> 00:05:29,160 way of raising funds, you know, So that was really interesting 87 00:05:29,170 --> 00:05:31,190 to me. So when I came to Canada during 88 00:05:31,200 --> 00:05:35,080 my UTI, I took up a paper, municipal planning and Urban 89 00:05:35,090 --> 00:05:37,770 Land Use policy. While I was pursuing that, I 90 00:05:37,780 --> 00:05:41,020 studied about property taxes and how municipal planning works 91 00:05:41,030 --> 00:05:45,020 here, which was interesting. And then I decided, why not make 92 00:05:45,030 --> 00:05:48,620 a list of all the municipalities that are there in Ontario and 93 00:05:48,630 --> 00:05:50,550 subscribe to their newsletters because I want to see what 94 00:05:50,560 --> 00:05:54,360 they're doing. So I subscribe to, you know, 95 00:05:54,410 --> 00:05:58,240 Chatham, Kent and Region of Durham and City of Pickering and 96 00:05:58,250 --> 00:06:01,960 town of Ajax and town of Whitby, and then something in Ottawa and 97 00:06:01,970 --> 00:06:04,980 then something in, you know, Carlton and then Sudbury, 98 00:06:04,990 --> 00:06:07,920 Timmins, you name it. Susan, Mary, you name it. 99 00:06:08,210 --> 00:06:10,840 And I had subscribed to the newsletter because I was really 100 00:06:10,910 --> 00:06:12,680 interested in what they were doing. 101 00:06:12,750 --> 00:06:16,940 And in this, you know, I was reading through the newsletter 102 00:06:16,950 --> 00:06:20,240 of Region of Durham and then I found they had an article in 103 00:06:20,250 --> 00:06:22,320 position. I was like, you think I should 104 00:06:22,330 --> 00:06:24,820 apply? I, I just, I was like, OK, let 105 00:06:24,830 --> 00:06:27,840 me give it a shot. I remember the last date was 9th 106 00:06:27,850 --> 00:06:30,480 of January. On 8th evening, I was 107 00:06:30,490 --> 00:06:33,720 contemplating, should I apply or should I not apply? 108 00:06:33,830 --> 00:06:37,550 I, I think it late night I just sat, I was like, let me give 109 00:06:37,560 --> 00:06:39,470 this a shot. At best what's going to happen? 110 00:06:39,480 --> 00:06:42,840 They're going to reject me. But no, I was accepted. 111 00:06:42,910 --> 00:06:47,420 And let me tell you, subscribing to almost 100 newsletters was 112 00:06:47,430 --> 00:06:51,420 perhaps one of the best decisions I ever did while I was 113 00:06:51,430 --> 00:06:54,270 with Region of Durham. This exercise helped me in one 114 00:06:54,280 --> 00:06:56,890 of the assignments that was given to me because I had to 115 00:06:56,900 --> 00:07:00,050 reach out to other municipalities to collect data 116 00:07:00,140 --> 00:07:03,630 and you know, for something that we were looking at for certain 117 00:07:03,640 --> 00:07:06,840 numbers. And it was very easy because all 118 00:07:06,850 --> 00:07:09,130 I had to do was open the newsletter, find out the contact 119 00:07:09,140 --> 00:07:12,120 person and reach out to them directly instead of first going 120 00:07:12,130 --> 00:07:14,450 through their website and other things. 121 00:07:14,460 --> 00:07:17,590 So what I'm trying to say is, you don't know what a small 122 00:07:17,660 --> 00:07:21,450 gesture that comes from a place of curiosity can do to you and 123 00:07:21,460 --> 00:07:22,970 do for. You that's incredible. 124 00:07:22,980 --> 00:07:25,690 And, and for context here, I know that there's a few people 125 00:07:25,760 --> 00:07:29,270 who are familiar now with the Canadian process and all of 126 00:07:29,280 --> 00:07:32,490 that, and we've spoke about it in quite a few of the podcasts. 127 00:07:32,500 --> 00:07:36,560 But basically to become licensed in Canada, part of this process 128 00:07:36,680 --> 00:07:40,660 is to find these mandatory internship, let's call it that, 129 00:07:40,670 --> 00:07:43,300 similar to to what a train ship is in the UK. 130 00:07:43,310 --> 00:07:46,640 I guess that that basically means that one of the pathways 131 00:07:46,650 --> 00:07:50,200 to becoming licensed after taking bar exams or not 132 00:07:50,210 --> 00:07:53,900 necessarily in that arteries that you also have to have to do 133 00:07:53,910 --> 00:07:58,280 this articling job and times. This can be difficult to write, 134 00:07:58,290 --> 00:08:01,440 finding that position that basically will decide whether 135 00:08:01,450 --> 00:08:03,770 you, you can become a lawyer or not. 136 00:08:03,870 --> 00:08:06,770 So especially if you're in disposition of an 137 00:08:06,780 --> 00:08:10,100 internationally trained lawyers or, or newcomer, you can feel 138 00:08:10,110 --> 00:08:12,680 stuck when searching for those articling roles. 139 00:08:12,950 --> 00:08:16,360 So I love that you approached it really from a place of curiosity 140 00:08:16,370 --> 00:08:19,580 and, and, and, and from your personal interests as well. 141 00:08:19,630 --> 00:08:23,340 And I thought you asked if there was any strategy or mindset that 142 00:08:23,350 --> 00:08:26,840 also helped you to stay motivated during your searches? 143 00:08:27,290 --> 00:08:30,960 You know, what really helped me was the fact was the realization 144 00:08:30,970 --> 00:08:35,020 that I wasn't alone. It was COVID Here I was in a 145 00:08:35,030 --> 00:08:39,440 basement trying to connect with the rest of the world online 146 00:08:39,510 --> 00:08:41,700 because suddenly everything had turned online. 147 00:08:41,770 --> 00:08:45,150 And, you know, they often say that you shouldn't be vulnerable 148 00:08:45,160 --> 00:08:47,500 and you should appear to be, you know, you, you should be really 149 00:08:47,510 --> 00:08:52,140 strong in front of other people. What helps me find true 150 00:08:52,150 --> 00:08:56,040 friendships, true support during that time was me being 151 00:08:56,050 --> 00:08:59,320 vulnerable. I was like, I feel anxious, I 152 00:08:59,330 --> 00:09:02,430 feel scared. I don't know whether I'd never 153 00:09:02,440 --> 00:09:06,130 come out of this basement. And will my world be stuck over 154 00:09:06,260 --> 00:09:08,450 Zoom? Will it ever go beyond Zoom? 155 00:09:08,460 --> 00:09:11,200 Because people were coming up with all sorts of theories, and 156 00:09:11,210 --> 00:09:13,430 you were just all by yourself in a new country. 157 00:09:13,500 --> 00:09:17,430 So what kept me motivated was #1 the realization that I'm not 158 00:09:17,440 --> 00:09:22,230 alone #2 that this will end someday this way, or that it 159 00:09:22,240 --> 00:09:25,410 will end. And three, that I have the 160 00:09:25,420 --> 00:09:32,730 courage to transcend boundaries, to relocate it, you know, on the 161 00:09:32,740 --> 00:09:36,240 other side of 30s. So if nothing else, my courage 162 00:09:36,250 --> 00:09:39,250 will see me through. So it was being courageous and 163 00:09:39,260 --> 00:09:42,470 vulnerable at the same time. I know it sounds oxymoronic when 164 00:09:42,480 --> 00:09:46,370 I put it, but being vulnerable is being courageous and to 165 00:09:46,380 --> 00:09:50,810 realize that I'm not alone. And I had surrounded myself with 166 00:09:50,820 --> 00:09:53,540 really positive people. I had my sister with me who 167 00:09:53,550 --> 00:09:56,640 would constantly tell me that if nothing else, we'll do 168 00:09:56,650 --> 00:09:58,540 something, you know, if if nothing else, you'll do 169 00:09:58,550 --> 00:10:01,710 something else with your life. So, yeah, that really motivated 170 00:10:01,720 --> 00:10:03,290 me. I have had the support of 171 00:10:03,300 --> 00:10:05,570 fantastic friends that I found at UFT. 172 00:10:05,780 --> 00:10:08,450 Yeah. So I, I think that's what kept 173 00:10:08,460 --> 00:10:10,660 me going. One rejection letter after 174 00:10:10,670 --> 00:10:13,450 another and being ghosted. It feels horrible. 175 00:10:13,460 --> 00:10:17,490 I, I can still feel it somewhere inside what it did to me. 176 00:10:17,540 --> 00:10:21,110 But I can, I can promise you into everyone's struggling out 177 00:10:21,120 --> 00:10:22,770 there that it will. End that's incredible. 178 00:10:22,780 --> 00:10:24,190 Thank you so much for sharing that. 179 00:10:24,260 --> 00:10:28,360 I, I also noticed that that even though that time for articling 180 00:10:28,370 --> 00:10:32,360 and all of that has gone on and, and incredible new professional 181 00:10:32,370 --> 00:10:34,300 opportunities have gone on in a period. 182 00:10:34,310 --> 00:10:37,760 I appreciate you revisiting this for people who are in that stage 183 00:10:37,770 --> 00:10:40,300 now. And you did incredible things. 184 00:10:40,310 --> 00:10:43,540 And, and one of them is that you also published in different 185 00:10:43,550 --> 00:10:45,960 articles and tax and newsletters as well. 186 00:10:46,030 --> 00:10:49,520 So I thought I'd ask you, you know, for those maybe interested 187 00:10:49,530 --> 00:10:52,520 in writing or getting, you know, their name out there that way, 188 00:10:52,530 --> 00:10:55,180 what are some of your suggestions as well for, for 189 00:10:55,190 --> 00:10:58,200 maybe students who think I don't really know enough or I don't 190 00:10:58,210 --> 00:11:01,520 have a lot of knowledge to contribute how they can get over 191 00:11:01,530 --> 00:11:03,550 this fear and just get out there. 192 00:11:03,560 --> 00:11:06,740 Actually that's a very good question and tell you how I 193 00:11:06,820 --> 00:11:09,120 started. So when I was articling, I think 194 00:11:09,130 --> 00:11:12,840 this was around December 2022 when they first started talking 195 00:11:12,850 --> 00:11:17,960 about ChatGPT, right? And I, I was curious and I 196 00:11:17,970 --> 00:11:19,490 started playing with chargeability. 197 00:11:19,500 --> 00:11:23,170 So what I did was I said actually give ChatGPT a prompt 198 00:11:23,180 --> 00:11:27,750 which said give me 3 case laws in which court has said that 199 00:11:27,760 --> 00:11:30,190 it's OK to commit fraud. It's OK. 200 00:11:30,400 --> 00:11:34,410 Do you see the buzz, how bizarre the prompt was? 201 00:11:34,420 --> 00:11:36,930 And lo behold, it gave me 3 case laws. 202 00:11:36,980 --> 00:11:43,070 And that was the first time I was introduced to how the 203 00:11:43,080 --> 00:11:48,290 concept of healthy nation of AI. And I was just doing it because 204 00:11:48,300 --> 00:11:52,110 I was like and and I gave like the most bizarre prompt that you 205 00:11:52,120 --> 00:11:54,670 can think of. And every time it would get 206 00:11:54,680 --> 00:11:56,900 through up a case law. So I decided I said, there's 207 00:11:56,910 --> 00:12:00,390 something wrong with this, the way it's making up information. 208 00:12:00,460 --> 00:12:03,980 And then because I was articling with region of Durham, I spoke 209 00:12:03,990 --> 00:12:06,310 to my supervisor. I said, I want to write about 210 00:12:06,320 --> 00:12:08,410 this. And he said, sure, where do you 211 00:12:08,420 --> 00:12:10,270 want to write about? Where are you going to write 212 00:12:10,280 --> 00:12:12,470 about this app? I'm I'm OK if you want to write 213 00:12:12,480 --> 00:12:17,640 about it, but where I said, OK. And then I reached out to a few 214 00:12:17,650 --> 00:12:20,090 places because there was call for articles. 215 00:12:20,140 --> 00:12:23,080 So during reasons law associations newsletter by the 216 00:12:23,090 --> 00:12:25,370 name of dollar voice was accepted. 217 00:12:25,420 --> 00:12:28,470 You know, there was this call for articles for the spring 218 00:12:28,480 --> 00:12:30,540 collection for the spring edition. 219 00:12:30,680 --> 00:12:33,120 And I reached out to their librarian, Jenny Clarke, who 220 00:12:33,130 --> 00:12:35,780 very graciously said, sure, you can write. 221 00:12:36,130 --> 00:12:39,710 This is, you know, you, you have to fit in in 1500 word, the work 222 00:12:39,720 --> 00:12:41,860 has to be original, so on and so forth. 223 00:12:41,910 --> 00:12:46,060 And I think I, I sat down and I wrote, I sent it to my 224 00:12:46,070 --> 00:12:48,520 principal. He had no edits and then it was 225 00:12:48,530 --> 00:12:50,340 published. What I'm trying to say is that 226 00:12:50,410 --> 00:12:55,400 if you feel passionately about something and if the word is not 227 00:12:55,410 --> 00:12:57,570 passionately, if, if there's something that you want to 228 00:12:57,580 --> 00:13:01,680 explore through your writing, the first thing is to know where 229 00:13:01,690 --> 00:13:05,100 you want to write, which essentially means go over 3-4 230 00:13:05,110 --> 00:13:09,000 newsletters, go over report. Like for instance, currently 231 00:13:09,010 --> 00:13:13,420 there is call for articles by Ontario Reports on how the 232 00:13:13,430 --> 00:13:16,580 overhaul in civil litigation rules like rules of civil 233 00:13:16,590 --> 00:13:19,560 procedures going to impact the justice system. 234 00:13:19,600 --> 00:13:23,540 So if it is something that you truly want to write about, read 235 00:13:23,550 --> 00:13:26,680 a couple of articles that Ontario Reports has published 236 00:13:26,690 --> 00:13:30,640 and then go ahead and write share it with your friends and 237 00:13:30,650 --> 00:13:32,140 couple of people from the profession. 238 00:13:32,150 --> 00:13:35,390 You would be amazed to see how helpful can they be. 239 00:13:35,440 --> 00:13:39,070 And once you have received their inputs, send in your work. 240 00:13:39,150 --> 00:13:43,560 So the idea is that A get feedback from other people B. 241 00:13:43,600 --> 00:13:47,460 If not passionate, then at least you should be curious about that 242 00:13:47,470 --> 00:13:51,940 area and see read a couple of articles that are already 243 00:13:51,950 --> 00:13:55,260 published to see if your work fits in. 244 00:13:55,410 --> 00:13:57,040 Like for something like a Chad GPA. 245 00:13:57,050 --> 00:14:00,060 I knew I'm not going to write publish A6000 word paper. 246 00:14:00,210 --> 00:14:03,050 It was an opinion piece. It was something which was like 247 00:14:03,060 --> 00:14:07,080 thousand 1100. So share to actually send it to 248 00:14:07,130 --> 00:14:09,700 you know, anything beyond a newsletter would not have 249 00:14:09,710 --> 00:14:12,520 helped. So A identify your audience. 250 00:14:12,570 --> 00:14:18,270 B identify your newsletter, say get feedback ND if which is 251 00:14:18,280 --> 00:14:21,360 actually should be a be genuinely curious about it. 252 00:14:21,370 --> 00:14:24,920 You should want to explore it or you should feel about it, or if 253 00:14:24,930 --> 00:14:27,660 nothing else, you should have something to say about it. 254 00:14:27,730 --> 00:14:29,520 So those couldn't really help me. 255 00:14:29,590 --> 00:14:32,860 No, that's fantastic. I like that because it's 256 00:14:32,870 --> 00:14:35,920 incredible for these ideas, but also for really any kind of 257 00:14:35,930 --> 00:14:39,290 writing, be it, you know, writing on LinkedIn, writing on 258 00:14:39,500 --> 00:14:42,070 it, as you said, articles, newsletters, anything. 259 00:14:42,140 --> 00:14:45,110 It's a really good piece of piece of idea. 260 00:14:45,120 --> 00:14:48,630 And then just identifying that public and and who's your 261 00:14:48,640 --> 00:14:52,590 audience might really just be, you know, the key for any kind 262 00:14:52,600 --> 00:14:55,410 of writing at all, right, Be just admission to the court and 263 00:14:55,420 --> 00:14:58,150 e-mail anything. So thank you so much for for 264 00:14:58,160 --> 00:15:02,340 highlighting that. Yeah, I mean, I, I do write. 265 00:15:02,390 --> 00:15:04,680 I have all. I've always written even even 266 00:15:04,690 --> 00:15:10,660 when even when I was a child and then I was a columnist in a 267 00:15:10,670 --> 00:15:14,080 newspaper in India. So you're right, keeping in mind 268 00:15:14,190 --> 00:15:16,720 who is going to read at the end of the day, who's going to 269 00:15:16,730 --> 00:15:19,280 consume this. So you have to then tailor your 270 00:15:19,290 --> 00:15:23,440 writing, your opinion, your tone to suit your audience because 271 00:15:23,450 --> 00:15:26,510 the idea is that it should reach maximum number of people. 272 00:15:26,520 --> 00:15:29,720 So this was something that I picked up when I started writing 273 00:15:29,730 --> 00:15:31,930 my own column in India. That's incredible. 274 00:15:31,940 --> 00:15:35,220 OK, so and and that's just, you know, one of the things that 275 00:15:35,230 --> 00:15:38,800 people can do that that riding right. 276 00:15:38,810 --> 00:15:42,320 But another thing that I saw that you do as well and indeed 277 00:15:42,330 --> 00:15:45,680 and have been doing is community involvement as well. 278 00:15:45,750 --> 00:15:49,180 So I'd love to ask you a little bit about, you know, how, how 279 00:15:49,190 --> 00:15:52,030 that plays a role in your life and how and also how in a way 280 00:15:52,040 --> 00:15:55,870 that's shaping your career path. See, when I first came here, I 281 00:15:55,880 --> 00:15:59,170 realized that nobody knows me and I don't know anybody. 282 00:15:59,220 --> 00:16:02,490 So and so tomorrow, if something were to happen to me in my 283 00:16:02,500 --> 00:16:04,630 basement, my neighbor wouldn't know me. 284 00:16:04,690 --> 00:16:08,430 And I know it comes from a very dark place, but the thought that 285 00:16:08,640 --> 00:16:15,000 if like you are invisible, right was, was very scary. 286 00:16:15,080 --> 00:16:17,710 And then I once again realized it's not just me. 287 00:16:17,800 --> 00:16:20,610 There are people who are coming from all over the world. 288 00:16:20,660 --> 00:16:22,870 English may or may not be their first language. 289 00:16:22,930 --> 00:16:26,540 They may or may not have the same privileges I have as I have 290 00:16:26,550 --> 00:16:28,550 had. And they might be feeling the 291 00:16:28,560 --> 00:16:30,950 same thing. So everything you know, the 292 00:16:30,960 --> 00:16:34,970 answer to most questions is when you dip into what you are truly 293 00:16:34,980 --> 00:16:37,680 feeling, you would be able to reach out because, you know, 294 00:16:37,690 --> 00:16:41,960 this is not how I want to feel. And I do not want anybody else 295 00:16:41,970 --> 00:16:45,070 to feel that way. And if something has helped me, 296 00:16:45,120 --> 00:16:48,810 why should it not spread? So community involvement is a 297 00:16:48,820 --> 00:16:53,210 very, very big piece in my life. It plays a very important role. 298 00:16:53,220 --> 00:16:57,210 I run SAB group, which is called international, you know, it's 299 00:16:57,220 --> 00:17:01,030 called internationally trained lawyers in Ontario that focuses 300 00:17:01,240 --> 00:17:05,170 on information that can help other people, information that I 301 00:17:05,180 --> 00:17:08,270 did not have access to, information that could have 302 00:17:08,280 --> 00:17:10,810 saved hours and hours of my time. 303 00:17:10,880 --> 00:17:14,490 So I think that it's, it's very, very important to be able to 304 00:17:14,500 --> 00:17:16,880 share. And the more you share, the more 305 00:17:16,890 --> 00:17:20,530 you get whether it is a thank you, whether it is some, some 306 00:17:20,540 --> 00:17:24,380 sometimes a note if I'm searching, like I had a query on 307 00:17:24,390 --> 00:17:27,510 the same group, I said, I, I had actually written this question. 308 00:17:27,520 --> 00:17:29,290 Can I speak to real estate lawyers? 309 00:17:29,340 --> 00:17:33,170 And so many people responded. So it's not just that, it's not 310 00:17:33,180 --> 00:17:35,750 just that it's for me, it's, it's the same thing for 311 00:17:35,760 --> 00:17:37,970 everybody. If you're searching for someone 312 00:17:37,980 --> 00:17:41,490 and you have or something and you have a community to go to, 313 00:17:41,640 --> 00:17:44,650 you realize you're not alone. You have you have an army 314 00:17:44,660 --> 00:17:47,090 standing beside you. You just need to ask. 315 00:17:47,160 --> 00:17:49,690 And I think that was very, very important. 316 00:17:49,700 --> 00:17:54,690 And the whole idea of community involvement actually comes from 317 00:17:54,700 --> 00:17:58,870 my parents because both of them are very active in our community 318 00:17:58,880 --> 00:18:03,030 in India, like my mom has, You know, she, she, she's the area 319 00:18:03,040 --> 00:18:05,890 where said officer, my dad has been actively involved in. 320 00:18:05,900 --> 00:18:10,410 We've always seen people at our place at all sorts of time and 321 00:18:10,420 --> 00:18:13,460 sitting and discussing problems. And consequently, when, when 322 00:18:13,470 --> 00:18:15,770 there was some issue that happened at my case, I didn't 323 00:18:15,780 --> 00:18:17,670 have to worry. All I had to do was make few 324 00:18:17,680 --> 00:18:21,230 calls and everyone showed up. So community involvement, 325 00:18:21,460 --> 00:18:24,770 especially in a world which is getting so insular and so 326 00:18:24,780 --> 00:18:29,540 focused on my needs and Netflix and 30 minute deliveries, 327 00:18:29,730 --> 00:18:31,780 community involvement is very important. 328 00:18:31,850 --> 00:18:35,180 Peer support, community involvement, they keep you 329 00:18:35,190 --> 00:18:37,440 afloat sometimes. I've seen that. 330 00:18:39,990 --> 00:18:43,220 You know, as we've been hearing from lawyers around the world on 331 00:18:43,230 --> 00:18:46,320 this show, one thing that's universal is the challenge of 332 00:18:46,330 --> 00:18:49,060 managing massive amounts of case materials. 333 00:18:49,130 --> 00:18:52,120 Whether you're dealing with witness statements in Sydney or 334 00:18:52,130 --> 00:18:56,500 reviewing contracts in Chicago, the volume can be overwhelming. 335 00:18:56,550 --> 00:19:00,420 That's why I wanted to tell you about Rev. Instead of analyzing 336 00:19:00,430 --> 00:19:04,700 documents one at a time, you upload everything to 1 workspace 337 00:19:04,750 --> 00:19:10,140 PDF's, audio recordings, video depositions, transcripts, Revs. 338 00:19:10,150 --> 00:19:14,600 AI analyzes them altogether and spots connections you'd never 339 00:19:14,610 --> 00:19:18,040 catch working file by file. Every insight comes with 340 00:19:18,050 --> 00:19:21,340 clickable citations that take you right back to the source. 341 00:19:21,410 --> 00:19:24,380 So when the AI finds a contradiction between witness 342 00:19:24,390 --> 00:19:26,860 statements, you can verify it instantly. 343 00:19:26,910 --> 00:19:29,980 Whether you're a law student or practicing attorney building 344 00:19:29,990 --> 00:19:33,760 your international career, Rev Insights gives you that edge our 345 00:19:33,770 --> 00:19:37,260 guests always talk about. Check it out at rev.com. 346 00:19:41,350 --> 00:19:43,260 That's incredible. It doesn't make sense. 347 00:19:43,270 --> 00:19:47,100 It it has, I guess to do with, you know, your sense of self 348 00:19:47,110 --> 00:19:50,560 worth, but also with doing something good, being out there 349 00:19:50,630 --> 00:19:53,780 and also, you know, in the end, meeting people, talking to them, 350 00:19:53,790 --> 00:19:57,020 getting to understand also the community dynamics and so much 351 00:19:57,030 --> 00:19:59,680 so really, it's a really important point. 352 00:19:59,690 --> 00:20:03,080 I think it's those things are are really very interesting and 353 00:20:03,090 --> 00:20:07,080 and are great ways to, you know, be able to project yourself and 354 00:20:07,090 --> 00:20:09,420 and get you the chance to introduce yourself to more 355 00:20:09,430 --> 00:20:11,620 people. As you said, those will help in 356 00:20:11,670 --> 00:20:13,300 any other area of work. Right. 357 00:20:13,390 --> 00:20:15,300 Yeah, and stories. Who doesn't like to hear good 358 00:20:15,310 --> 00:20:19,720 stories? I absolutely love listening to 359 00:20:19,730 --> 00:20:21,480 people. Where are they from? 360 00:20:21,640 --> 00:20:24,890 What has been their journey like what got them here? 361 00:20:24,940 --> 00:20:28,690 Look at the amount of storytelling it involves. 362 00:20:28,700 --> 00:20:30,510 It'll always keep you enthralled. 363 00:20:30,580 --> 00:20:34,410 You can always learn from somebody else's experience. 364 00:20:34,470 --> 00:20:37,610 And and and that's how friendships are born. 365 00:20:37,680 --> 00:20:40,510 That's how you know bonds are forged. 366 00:20:40,520 --> 00:20:44,690 And then before you know, you have made a friend you life. 367 00:20:44,740 --> 00:20:48,770 And solutely, absolutely going towards the end of today's 368 00:20:48,780 --> 00:20:51,870 episode, I wouldn't you ask your Hannah if, if you could, you 369 00:20:51,880 --> 00:20:55,730 know, either tell yourself a piece of advice if you were to 370 00:20:55,740 --> 00:20:58,830 go back in time or for people who are listening and are going 371 00:20:58,840 --> 00:21:01,870 through this process now of getting established, either 372 00:21:01,880 --> 00:21:04,490 they're finishing up law school or starting up their careers. 373 00:21:04,610 --> 00:21:07,220 What are what are maybe a few things you wish you had heard 374 00:21:07,270 --> 00:21:10,050 when you were going through this very first stages of the 375 00:21:10,060 --> 00:21:13,020 process. Did the first thing I would 376 00:21:13,980 --> 00:21:19,410 statewide 2020 cells is it will all be OK. 377 00:21:20,220 --> 00:21:22,480 This will end and it will all be OK. 378 00:21:22,490 --> 00:21:25,950 And much as it sounds cliche, believe me, it does. 379 00:21:26,030 --> 00:21:31,500 We all have a set path and we we are on it just that we don't 380 00:21:31,510 --> 00:21:33,820 realize it. And the thing that I'd like to 381 00:21:33,830 --> 00:21:37,020 share with those people who are in this process and right now 382 00:21:37,070 --> 00:21:41,840 struggling in feeling low or anxious or hopeless sometimes is 383 00:21:41,850 --> 00:21:45,560 that deep into your own life experience. 384 00:21:45,610 --> 00:21:50,060 Be authentic because there is literally just one you there are 385 00:21:50,070 --> 00:21:54,600 things you know, it's, it's funny I say this that what is, 386 00:21:54,810 --> 00:21:57,640 what is your superpower? And all of us have superpowers 387 00:21:57,650 --> 00:22:00,600 that cannot be easily found in other people. 388 00:22:00,690 --> 00:22:03,560 Maybe you are good at business development. 389 00:22:03,710 --> 00:22:07,200 Maybe you are good at paying attention to detail. 390 00:22:07,250 --> 00:22:10,430 Maybe you're an avid listener there. 391 00:22:10,530 --> 00:22:13,930 There is something that's unique about each one of us. 392 00:22:13,940 --> 00:22:18,690 All we need to do is find that instead of being overtly 393 00:22:18,700 --> 00:22:23,100 critical and being like copies of each other, find something 394 00:22:23,110 --> 00:22:26,650 that is truly unique about you. And no, I do not believe in this 395 00:22:26,660 --> 00:22:28,590 statement. Oh, I have nothing unique in 396 00:22:28,600 --> 00:22:30,470 myself. I don't have anything to offer. 397 00:22:30,480 --> 00:22:33,610 No, there are things that only you can offer and that's why 398 00:22:33,620 --> 00:22:35,690 you're here. There's only one you. 399 00:22:35,940 --> 00:22:40,040 And I found this when I was struggling that and, and like, 400 00:22:40,050 --> 00:22:42,850 for instance, I teach and teaching is therapeutic for me. 401 00:22:42,900 --> 00:22:47,190 I've I've taught since I was 13 and I knew that's my superpower. 402 00:22:47,200 --> 00:22:51,730 Reaching out to people and being friends and being easy going. 403 00:22:51,740 --> 00:22:54,030 Now you might say, but that's not a superpower. 404 00:22:54,100 --> 00:22:57,380 Well, it's conspicuous by its absence in the world we live in 405 00:22:57,390 --> 00:23:00,820 because it's so transactional. If you can actually be a human 406 00:23:00,870 --> 00:23:04,860 to someone else, like, you know, be your true self and end up 407 00:23:04,910 --> 00:23:06,940 having connections, you don't know how they'll help you. 408 00:23:06,950 --> 00:23:11,900 Like I can tell you some of the best things that happened to me 409 00:23:11,910 --> 00:23:15,980 have actually happened in a completely non law setting. 410 00:23:16,070 --> 00:23:18,500 Like I was in the library. The librarian said, I love you, 411 00:23:18,510 --> 00:23:20,650 your your rings. I said, here, take them. 412 00:23:20,660 --> 00:23:22,750 These are traditional earrings. I'm going to get them more. 413 00:23:22,760 --> 00:23:24,800 I'm going to get ask my mom to get more of them. 414 00:23:24,850 --> 00:23:27,780 And before we know, you know, we became friends and we're friends 415 00:23:27,790 --> 00:23:30,060 for life. So it's just simple exchange of 416 00:23:30,070 --> 00:23:32,560 your earrings that sometimes leads to these things. 417 00:23:32,570 --> 00:23:36,580 So be authentic and give yourself to that moment. 418 00:23:36,650 --> 00:23:38,920 I know it's sounds like, Oh my God, it's philosophy. 419 00:23:38,930 --> 00:23:41,400 No, it isn't. And you know, I, I, I met 420 00:23:41,410 --> 00:23:43,720 someone today, she said, you know, when you write your book, 421 00:23:43,730 --> 00:23:47,700 you should write it should be titled but for this, but for my 422 00:23:47,710 --> 00:23:49,830 visit to the library, this wouldn't have happened. 423 00:23:49,890 --> 00:23:52,690 But for subscribing to newsletters, this wouldn't have 424 00:23:52,700 --> 00:23:54,500 happened. And I said yes, because it's 425 00:23:54,510 --> 00:23:58,900 something that I did because I wanted to and not because it was 426 00:23:58,910 --> 00:24:02,440 guided by or whether it will lead to an articling position or 427 00:24:02,450 --> 00:24:04,320 not. That was not the thought behind 428 00:24:04,330 --> 00:24:05,990 it. You know, I don't know. 429 00:24:06,110 --> 00:24:08,800 Robert Frost is one of my favorite poets and he's written 430 00:24:08,810 --> 00:24:13,120 a book, The Road Less Traveled, where he said two roads diverged 431 00:24:13,130 --> 00:24:17,500 in yellow woods and I took the less travelled pie and that made 432 00:24:17,510 --> 00:24:20,200 all the difference. That is actually something that 433 00:24:20,210 --> 00:24:22,710 I've believed in and it has helped me so far. 434 00:24:22,760 --> 00:24:25,110 That's amazing. Well, I really appreciate that 435 00:24:25,120 --> 00:24:27,270 piece of advice. It's very much applicable for 436 00:24:27,280 --> 00:24:30,490 for myself even that's one of the the great parts of being 437 00:24:30,500 --> 00:24:34,230 part of the the podcast is that I get to listen to to every 438 00:24:34,240 --> 00:24:37,450 single person's advice and and definitely am a big it's a big 439 00:24:37,460 --> 00:24:39,790 benefit for me. No, no joke at all. 440 00:24:39,920 --> 00:24:42,260 So I really appreciate you taking the time to being here in 441 00:24:42,270 --> 00:24:44,340 the podcast today and we'll be in touch. 442 00:24:44,350 --> 00:24:47,400 Thank you so much for tuning into the episode as well to all 443 00:24:47,410 --> 00:24:48,810 listeners. Thank you so much. 444 00:24:48,820 --> 00:24:51,650 It was wonderful being here. You take care and all the best. 445 00:24:51,700 --> 00:24:53,370 Thank you so much. I appreciate it. 446 00:24:53,420 --> 00:24:53,650 Yeah.