1 00:00:12,870 --> 00:00:14,880 Welcome to studying law Around the world. 2 00:00:15,010 --> 00:00:17,860 I'm Claudio Claus. In each episode, I talk with 3 00:00:17,870 --> 00:00:20,840 lawyers, law students, and professors from different parts 4 00:00:20,850 --> 00:00:24,740 of the world to talk about legal education, careers, and what the 5 00:00:24,750 --> 00:00:26,420 profession looks like in real life. 6 00:00:26,430 --> 00:00:29,470 We talk about the hard parts, the surprises and the decisions. 7 00:00:29,480 --> 00:00:32,259 That shaped their paths. Whether you're planning to study 8 00:00:32,270 --> 00:00:35,520 abroad, thinking about working in another legal system, or just 9 00:00:35,530 --> 00:00:39,640 curious about how law works around the world, this podcast 10 00:00:39,650 --> 00:00:44,350 is for you. This episode of Studying War 11 00:00:44,360 --> 00:00:48,330 Around the World is proudly sponsored by ITL Prep from Emond 12 00:00:48,380 --> 00:00:52,250 Exam Prep, the comprehensive resource designed specifically 13 00:00:52,320 --> 00:00:55,430 for internationally trained lawyers preparing for DMCA 14 00:00:55,440 --> 00:00:57,960 exams. We understand that the NCA 15 00:00:57,970 --> 00:01:00,130 accreditation journey can feel overwhelming. 16 00:01:00,280 --> 00:01:03,750 You can face many obstacles getting to success, courses that 17 00:01:03,760 --> 00:01:07,900 cost too much, offer too little, or leave you more confused than 18 00:01:07,910 --> 00:01:10,490 when you started. 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ITL Prep is offering 50% off all 34 00:02:01,080 --> 00:02:03,770 courses for the 1st 50 purchases. 35 00:02:03,820 --> 00:02:07,590 Simply use the promo code ITL 50 at checkout. 36 00:02:07,680 --> 00:02:11,320 Casebooks and other resources must be purchased separately. 37 00:02:11,370 --> 00:02:19,560 Visit imams.chtodaythatsemod.ca and use promo code ITL 50 to 38 00:02:19,570 --> 00:02:23,850 claim your 50% discount on NCA exam preparation courses. 39 00:02:29,590 --> 00:02:33,440 Today I have the opportunity to speak with Peter said He has an 40 00:02:33,450 --> 00:02:36,550 incredible story starting in New York and nowadays being the 41 00:02:36,560 --> 00:02:38,760 managing partner of Loopster Nixon. 42 00:02:38,890 --> 00:02:41,670 Thank you so much for taking the time to being with me here in 43 00:02:41,680 --> 00:02:43,880 the podcast today, Peter, I appreciate your time. 44 00:02:43,930 --> 00:02:47,720 Claudio, it's an absolute pleasure to be a part of this. 45 00:02:48,030 --> 00:02:53,100 I remember when you emailed me to reach out for the 75 people 46 00:02:53,110 --> 00:02:59,310 for the 75 alumni journey, and it was just extraordinary to 47 00:02:59,320 --> 00:03:02,590 meet you then. And since then, just following 48 00:03:02,600 --> 00:03:06,290 you on LinkedIn and seeing what you're doing you. 49 00:03:06,540 --> 00:03:08,990 You're impacting people in more ways than you. 50 00:03:09,000 --> 00:03:12,470 You know it. And we're fortunate to have 51 00:03:12,520 --> 00:03:16,270 leaders like you, and I'm fortunate to have met you and be 52 00:03:16,280 --> 00:03:18,630 a part of the journey we're on together. 53 00:03:18,700 --> 00:03:22,490 I really appreciate you, you saying that and well, I 54 00:03:22,500 --> 00:03:25,550 appreciate you being so generous as well to be part of the 75 55 00:03:25,560 --> 00:03:28,310 lawyers project. For maybe those who haven't 56 00:03:28,320 --> 00:03:30,980 heard much about it in, in previous podcasts, we've, we've 57 00:03:30,990 --> 00:03:34,430 talked about it briefly, but UFT law was turning 75. 58 00:03:34,480 --> 00:03:39,100 And as a personal go, I thought, what could I do beyond attending 59 00:03:39,110 --> 00:03:41,440 the, the events to celebrate the law school? 60 00:03:41,450 --> 00:03:42,940 And then I came up with this idea. 61 00:03:42,950 --> 00:03:46,980 I saw few friends in the US who had a go of meeting 100 lawyers 62 00:03:46,990 --> 00:03:49,990 before they graduated. And I thought, well, how 63 00:03:50,000 --> 00:03:53,060 exciting it would be for me to meet, you know, 75 alumni. 64 00:03:53,130 --> 00:03:56,460 And then it was the 75th year. So it just, it was just very 65 00:03:56,470 --> 00:03:58,600 nice. And I got to meet a lot of very 66 00:03:58,610 --> 00:04:00,960 generous people like you, Peter. So thank you for being a part of 67 00:04:00,970 --> 00:04:03,530 that. I'd like to ask you then if you 68 00:04:03,540 --> 00:04:06,540 could pre please introduce yourself to our listeners and 69 00:04:06,550 --> 00:04:09,280 tell us a little bit about, you know, what you do these days. 70 00:04:09,290 --> 00:04:14,690 So what I do these days is I cause a lot of chaos. 71 00:04:14,740 --> 00:04:18,950 But you know, my journeys vary. I'm very fortunate. 72 00:04:19,380 --> 00:04:23,950 I was new to law. I didn't come from a history of 73 00:04:24,020 --> 00:04:25,810 family members in the practice of law. 74 00:04:25,820 --> 00:04:30,370 If anything, my parents would have expected me to be a doctor 75 00:04:30,420 --> 00:04:35,490 or an engineer or some other. And law wasn't one of those 76 00:04:35,800 --> 00:04:38,850 professions. And I was fortunate enough to to 77 00:04:38,860 --> 00:04:42,190 go through the journey. I started in Business School and 78 00:04:42,400 --> 00:04:44,830 ended my academic journey at UFT. 79 00:04:45,460 --> 00:04:49,330 While I was at UFT, they said OCI for New York jobs, you 80 00:04:49,340 --> 00:04:52,330 should consider applied. I was fortunate enough to get a 81 00:04:52,340 --> 00:04:58,540 position of Turbine and Sterling and spent 4 1/2 years working at 82 00:04:58,550 --> 00:05:02,290 Sherman and Sterling and from there I wasn't called to the bar 83 00:05:02,300 --> 00:05:05,340 in Ontario. So I I looked around, I said OK, 84 00:05:05,350 --> 00:05:07,360 I don't really know anyone in Ontario. 85 00:05:07,370 --> 00:05:10,600 I don't have Canadian credentials at that point. 86 00:05:10,650 --> 00:05:13,920 So I decided to write the bar and build my own practice from 87 00:05:13,930 --> 00:05:16,320 that journey. It was interesting to really 88 00:05:16,330 --> 00:05:20,660 start from Ground Zero again. It was a full reset and the 89 00:05:20,670 --> 00:05:22,380 journey was exciting. I got to work with a lot of 90 00:05:22,390 --> 00:05:26,060 great people and then my practice reached a point where I 91 00:05:26,070 --> 00:05:33,030 needed that support and that the back end support to help take my 92 00:05:33,040 --> 00:05:35,490 practice to the next level. So I joined Loops for Nixon in 93 00:05:35,500 --> 00:05:39,860 2021 and it's just been an exciting journey to be a part of 94 00:05:39,870 --> 00:05:44,200 a great team there. I was fortunate enough to become 95 00:05:44,210 --> 00:05:49,060 managing partner in 20 in February of 2025, so earlier 96 00:05:49,070 --> 00:05:51,120 this year. That's kind of what keeps me 97 00:05:51,130 --> 00:05:55,380 busy these days is the balance between practicing law, being 98 00:05:55,390 --> 00:05:57,700 around my kids and my wife as much as I can be. 99 00:05:57,710 --> 00:06:03,100 And if I'm not in the office or at Brett's for a coffee across 100 00:06:03,110 --> 00:06:05,680 the office, you'll hear basketballs bouncing in the 101 00:06:05,690 --> 00:06:07,910 background because I'm a basketball practice with one of 102 00:06:07,920 --> 00:06:10,520 the kids. And that's the journey I'm on. 103 00:06:10,840 --> 00:06:13,840 And I'm fortunate to be able to share my story with you. 104 00:06:13,910 --> 00:06:16,130 Amazing. Thank you for for sharing that. 105 00:06:16,140 --> 00:06:19,210 Just start off and since you mentioned New York, I remember 106 00:06:19,220 --> 00:06:22,790 you recently posted a little bit about that and, and that story 107 00:06:22,800 --> 00:06:27,330 of starting your career during the 2008 financial crisis in 108 00:06:27,380 --> 00:06:30,130 maybe what we could call part of the heart of it as well. 109 00:06:30,220 --> 00:06:32,230 And I'd love to hear a little more on that. 110 00:06:32,240 --> 00:06:35,510 You know, looking back, what did that experience teach you? 111 00:06:35,640 --> 00:06:37,850 I'm sure there was a lot of, you know, questions about 112 00:06:37,860 --> 00:06:41,850 resilience, about risk, and maybe even what should guide you 113 00:06:41,860 --> 00:06:46,640 from that. It was extraordinary because in 114 00:06:47,090 --> 00:06:52,420 September of 2008, my wife and I got married and we were on our 115 00:06:52,430 --> 00:06:56,690 honeymoon and you turned on the news and Bear Bear Stearns and 116 00:06:56,700 --> 00:06:58,500 Lehman Brothers were closing their door. 117 00:06:58,510 --> 00:07:03,070 And in that moment, you actually don't know what that means. 118 00:07:03,190 --> 00:07:07,040 And you don't know whether you have their job anymore. 119 00:07:07,090 --> 00:07:11,470 You don't know the world. It is essentially exploding as 120 00:07:11,480 --> 00:07:16,820 you know it. And I recall going to New York, 121 00:07:16,830 --> 00:07:21,550 we arrived on the Friday, October the 3rd, 2008, got to 122 00:07:21,560 --> 00:07:24,600 our apartment, literally had an air mattress in the suitcase 123 00:07:24,610 --> 00:07:27,940 because nothing had arrived. And you're sitting around in a 124 00:07:27,950 --> 00:07:30,860 foreign city where you know nobody. 125 00:07:30,930 --> 00:07:33,360 And I wrote on, I wrote on LinkedIn, I said, and no one 126 00:07:33,370 --> 00:07:36,350 knows you've arrived. The city could you know, it's 127 00:07:36,360 --> 00:07:38,560 too big. And you show up on the first 128 00:07:38,570 --> 00:07:41,220 day. Law firms were trying to be very 129 00:07:41,230 --> 00:07:43,960 brave during that time, pretending like everything is 130 00:07:43,970 --> 00:07:47,660 normal, but nothing was normal. We were entering the US 131 00:07:47,670 --> 00:07:52,060 elections at that time. And it was it was Barack Obama's 132 00:07:52,390 --> 00:07:55,760 campaign, I believe it was against John McCain or Mitt 133 00:07:55,770 --> 00:07:57,060 Romney, I don't remember which one. 134 00:07:57,130 --> 00:08:01,240 And it was so unique because the transition government usually 135 00:08:01,250 --> 00:08:03,820 like George Bush was finishing his term. 136 00:08:03,870 --> 00:08:07,300 But it was amazing because the government needed to make such 137 00:08:07,310 --> 00:08:10,840 significant decisions, which is atypical at the conclusion of a 138 00:08:10,850 --> 00:08:14,060 term that Barack Obama's transition government was 139 00:08:14,070 --> 00:08:17,500 working so closely because they were they needed to create 140 00:08:17,510 --> 00:08:21,050 fiscal policy. Claudio, I share this because, 141 00:08:21,270 --> 00:08:24,020 you know, sometimes we go through it in different journeys 142 00:08:24,030 --> 00:08:26,660 and you see the cycle of economies and you know, we're 143 00:08:26,670 --> 00:08:28,940 going through it a little bit right now where there's some 144 00:08:28,950 --> 00:08:31,400 uncertainties. You have people looking around 145 00:08:31,410 --> 00:08:34,000 for articling positions. You have different students. 146 00:08:34,010 --> 00:08:37,610 And I said to them, you know, these are all blips in the 147 00:08:37,620 --> 00:08:41,780 longer journey that we're on. But the capital markets 148 00:08:41,789 --> 00:08:44,340 literally froze. Nothing happened. 149 00:08:44,450 --> 00:08:48,820 Imagine that you're at a major law firm, global player, you're 150 00:08:48,830 --> 00:08:52,780 looking around and there's zero activity, capital frozen away 151 00:08:52,830 --> 00:08:57,000 that it never did. So you sit around and it got to 152 00:08:57,010 --> 00:09:00,680 the point where we would all pretend we're busy because, you 153 00:09:00,690 --> 00:09:05,450 know, you're, you don't want to be the person leaving early, 154 00:09:05,500 --> 00:09:09,010 especially in a down market. And at one point in time, the 155 00:09:09,020 --> 00:09:11,690 partners walked around said, guys, we know nothing's going on 156 00:09:11,700 --> 00:09:13,750 right now, Just don't pretend. Just go. 157 00:09:13,760 --> 00:09:15,970 And if something comes up, just be reachable. 158 00:09:16,120 --> 00:09:19,170 And it was, it was actually really helpful sort of 159 00:09:19,180 --> 00:09:21,670 acknowledgement from them because it took a lot of 160 00:09:21,680 --> 00:09:23,960 pressure off. And like all good things, the 161 00:09:23,970 --> 00:09:27,830 slow times didn't last for long. And the work came back and it 162 00:09:27,840 --> 00:09:31,590 was a flurry because the interest rates that the 163 00:09:31,600 --> 00:09:34,650 government adopted through, you know, through the Federal 164 00:09:34,660 --> 00:09:37,110 Reserve and stuff brought the rates all the way down. 165 00:09:37,180 --> 00:09:41,720 So companies that had debt for 5 percent, 6% were like, OK, well, 166 00:09:41,730 --> 00:09:46,000 it's cheaper for me to pay the penalty and take new money at 0% 167 00:09:46,010 --> 00:09:48,920 or 2%. So they actually were just 168 00:09:48,990 --> 00:09:51,630 playing the market. And the investment grade market 169 00:09:51,640 --> 00:09:54,200 exploded. And partners were walking around 170 00:09:54,210 --> 00:09:56,640 saying, hey, what's your name? Have you done a deal? 171 00:09:56,690 --> 00:09:58,200 Do you know what a comfort letter is? 172 00:09:58,270 --> 00:10:00,560 And you're like, hi, I'm Peter. I know nothing. 173 00:10:00,570 --> 00:10:03,360 But, you know, during that journey, you're thinking your 174 00:10:03,370 --> 00:10:05,220 world is ending and you look back. 175 00:10:05,230 --> 00:10:07,880 And these were the most formative years of my career. 176 00:10:07,890 --> 00:10:11,460 And I'm so fortunate to have worked with such amazing people. 177 00:10:11,530 --> 00:10:16,120 And I'm also so fortunate that I had to learn by fire. 178 00:10:16,190 --> 00:10:19,440 You learned by doing, and it was out of necessity. 179 00:10:19,530 --> 00:10:23,020 So it was interesting to see it. And you know, you're going to go 180 00:10:23,030 --> 00:10:26,360 through these vehicles in your career and there's always these 181 00:10:26,370 --> 00:10:31,890 very significant ones. I would say 2005 is one in the 182 00:10:31,900 --> 00:10:34,300 Canadian marketplace that we've all kind of said, OK, what's 183 00:10:34,310 --> 00:10:36,950 going on? You have the threats of tariffs. 184 00:10:36,960 --> 00:10:39,250 You have, you know, the investment market on the real 185 00:10:39,260 --> 00:10:41,240 estate side. So there are different sort of 186 00:10:41,250 --> 00:10:44,020 wins that are happening. And so in a few years, you look 187 00:10:44,030 --> 00:10:48,320 back and you've weathered the storm and you know, it's don't 188 00:10:48,330 --> 00:10:50,620 get too high or too low. Really think about a long 189 00:10:50,630 --> 00:10:52,260 career. That's fantastic. 190 00:10:52,350 --> 00:10:56,400 I, I really like the wisdom of people who have gone through 191 00:10:56,410 --> 00:10:59,480 these times because as we were navigating them as professionals 192 00:10:59,490 --> 00:11:02,260 for the first one, it doesn't feel as comfortable. 193 00:11:02,270 --> 00:11:04,850 It doesn't feel like it's a time to learn lessons. 194 00:11:04,860 --> 00:11:06,440 It really feels like a time of fear. 195 00:11:06,450 --> 00:11:09,480 And we are recording this just before the Thanksgiving weekend. 196 00:11:09,490 --> 00:11:12,440 So it's, it's an interesting point that that comes to mind as 197 00:11:12,450 --> 00:11:14,620 you say that. But I think it's especially 198 00:11:14,630 --> 00:11:18,360 comforting to know that those are cycles that that have to 199 00:11:18,370 --> 00:11:21,080 happen and making the most of it is the the best we can. 200 00:11:21,090 --> 00:11:25,180 Do and I think Claudio is interesting because recently I, 201 00:11:25,240 --> 00:11:28,260 you know, you sit with your team and you say to them, Hey, you 202 00:11:28,270 --> 00:11:32,480 know, this is your first down market that you're experiencing 203 00:11:32,550 --> 00:11:35,240 And and to be honest with you, it almost feels like it's the 204 00:11:35,250 --> 00:11:39,120 first for me too, right? Like I didn't have a good start 205 00:11:39,130 --> 00:11:41,510 to my career. I had a dead start. 206 00:11:41,520 --> 00:11:44,710 So I didn't really have a reference point to realize how 207 00:11:44,720 --> 00:11:48,970 bad it was in 08. But what you actually also look 208 00:11:48,980 --> 00:11:52,070 is you typically, you know, every seven to 10 years you have 209 00:11:52,080 --> 00:11:54,290 a cycle. But if you look at the economy 210 00:11:54,300 --> 00:11:58,730 from O 8 to 25, we almost ridged a few of them. 211 00:11:58,740 --> 00:12:02,050 We skipped them a little bit. So a lot of people are looking 212 00:12:02,060 --> 00:12:04,570 around and you know, people have been practicing for 3-4 or five 213 00:12:04,580 --> 00:12:06,930 years are also looking and saying, Hey, what's going on? 214 00:12:06,940 --> 00:12:09,510 It's so slow, What's different? What's and it's like, hey, guys, 215 00:12:09,640 --> 00:12:13,470 it's OK, we're all in this. We will weather this. 216 00:12:13,520 --> 00:12:16,470 But a lot of people, it's not just articling students and 217 00:12:16,480 --> 00:12:19,720 summer students in first years, you know, mid level associates 218 00:12:19,790 --> 00:12:21,630 haven't seen a down market, right? 219 00:12:21,640 --> 00:12:25,640 So we've skipped a few because just the way the fiscal policies 220 00:12:25,650 --> 00:12:28,920 have been with the low interest rates and even we've had a few 221 00:12:28,960 --> 00:12:32,010 sort of blips along the way, but they've been so short lived like 222 00:12:32,020 --> 00:12:35,120 COVID, when COVID first happened, the markets went down 223 00:12:35,130 --> 00:12:37,730 a little bit, but then they rebounded at a rate no firm 224 00:12:37,740 --> 00:12:40,650 could have ever expected. So it just an interesting 225 00:12:40,660 --> 00:12:43,310 journey. And I think it's you really have 226 00:12:43,320 --> 00:12:46,810 to think about this from a broader career perspective. 227 00:12:46,820 --> 00:12:51,970 And even if you hit some bumps along the road, they're all, you 228 00:12:51,980 --> 00:12:55,150 know, you'll actually forget that when you look back. 229 00:12:55,200 --> 00:12:59,290 I remember October 6th because that literally was the first 230 00:12:59,300 --> 00:13:00,870 day. And you show up and you're 231 00:13:00,880 --> 00:13:04,810 hoping and expecting and because you have grand views, you think 232 00:13:04,820 --> 00:13:06,820 you know what your career is going to look like. 233 00:13:06,830 --> 00:13:12,000 And it usually doesn't involve a global economic shutdown with 234 00:13:12,010 --> 00:13:14,380 two large financial institutions. 235 00:13:14,450 --> 00:13:17,760 Claudio, you're seeing pictures of people with banker boxes 236 00:13:17,770 --> 00:13:20,500 leaving the buildings. That's how I'm starting my 237 00:13:20,510 --> 00:13:24,130 career, right? Go, go, go watch these clips of 238 00:13:24,140 --> 00:13:26,680 the newscast. And you're like, this is really, 239 00:13:26,730 --> 00:13:30,020 you know, bankers boxes. It's not really like a pun. 240 00:13:30,030 --> 00:13:32,740 It really literally is the bankers box and they're walking 241 00:13:32,750 --> 00:13:35,370 out with their stuff. Not a beautiful scene, that's 242 00:13:35,380 --> 00:13:38,140 for sure. And then Peter, as someone who 243 00:13:38,350 --> 00:13:42,480 has had this experience working in the global farm, building 244 00:13:42,490 --> 00:13:45,870 your own firm, I'd love to hear a little bit about a little more 245 00:13:45,940 --> 00:13:50,200 about, you know, building your practice then into a Canadian 246 00:13:50,210 --> 00:13:52,960 full size firm after those experiences. 247 00:13:52,970 --> 00:13:56,350 You mentioned that the support is very interesting and and 248 00:13:56,360 --> 00:13:59,090 that's one of the things that made you go into it, but I'd 249 00:13:59,100 --> 00:14:00,840 love to hear a little more about that experience. 250 00:14:00,890 --> 00:14:04,420 So I think at the end of the day, when you, when you evaluate 251 00:14:04,470 --> 00:14:08,400 what do I want out of my career, What am I looking for? 252 00:14:08,410 --> 00:14:11,960 What is important really, I think you look at this and, and 253 00:14:11,970 --> 00:14:17,260 you say to yourself, the law is the actual technical aspect of 254 00:14:17,270 --> 00:14:19,580 the law. Many of us can figure out, 255 00:14:19,650 --> 00:14:23,500 someone can do the research. A lot of people can execute with 256 00:14:23,510 --> 00:14:25,200 varying degrees. I get it. 257 00:14:25,280 --> 00:14:28,360 But it's the soft skills. It's, are you an effective 258 00:14:28,370 --> 00:14:31,010 communicator? Are you able to guide the 259 00:14:31,020 --> 00:14:33,910 client? Are you able to become the 260 00:14:33,920 --> 00:14:37,400 trusted advisor? What role do you play in the 261 00:14:37,410 --> 00:14:41,090 decision, in the decision making process for this client? 262 00:14:41,180 --> 00:14:45,000 And is the client seeing you as someone who's adding value or 263 00:14:45,380 --> 00:14:47,870 pushing paper? That's up to you as a lawyer. 264 00:14:47,880 --> 00:14:51,620 And those are the trades that you really fostered. 265 00:14:51,630 --> 00:14:55,490 Because really at the end of the day, Claudio, the, the technical 266 00:14:55,500 --> 00:14:58,890 skill isn't where relationships often break down. 267 00:14:58,960 --> 00:15:02,650 It's the communication, it's the missing deadlines. 268 00:15:02,660 --> 00:15:05,470 It's it's a lot of things you can actually control, but may 269 00:15:05,480 --> 00:15:10,050 always find that the number one thing was when you say yes to a 270 00:15:10,060 --> 00:15:15,220 client, you owe them your absolute best execution. 271 00:15:15,270 --> 00:15:20,440 You chose to take on that file. They are owed that absolute 272 00:15:20,450 --> 00:15:23,960 commitment to execution, executional excellence. 273 00:15:24,030 --> 00:15:28,080 Those are the hallmarks that you know you have to embrace. 274 00:15:28,090 --> 00:15:32,120 And I always say that in the practice, what ends up happening 275 00:15:32,130 --> 00:15:36,260 is you get comfortable not knowing what you don't know. 276 00:15:36,330 --> 00:15:40,240 You get really comfortable and people sometimes are scared to 277 00:15:40,250 --> 00:15:43,260 say, I don't know, but clients value thee. 278 00:15:43,420 --> 00:15:46,060 That's a great question. I don't know the answer. 279 00:15:46,070 --> 00:15:49,380 Leave it with me. Let me look into it is much 280 00:15:49,390 --> 00:15:53,360 better than you know, making it up and being absolutely wrong 281 00:15:53,370 --> 00:15:57,540 going from my own really I focused on saying I wanna 282 00:15:57,550 --> 00:16:02,370 execute with the excellence I was trained and I put it in my 283 00:16:02,380 --> 00:16:06,550 head to say I want to bring Wall Street execution to Main Street. 284 00:16:06,620 --> 00:16:09,330 That's that was the guiding principle at Sherman and 285 00:16:09,340 --> 00:16:12,210 Sterling. You were trained that clients 286 00:16:12,260 --> 00:16:16,770 expect good work from us clients expect responsiveness. 287 00:16:16,780 --> 00:16:21,430 Clients expect professionalism. Hold yourself to a standard, you 288 00:16:21,440 --> 00:16:27,680 know, and that was really the the overarching theme that 289 00:16:27,690 --> 00:16:33,920 guided my execution. And from there I was able to get 290 00:16:33,930 --> 00:16:37,870 to a point where it made sense for me to join others like 291 00:16:37,880 --> 00:16:41,060 minded professionals. And when I joined Leapster 292 00:16:41,070 --> 00:16:46,800 Nixon, it was a hungry group of lawyers who care about clients 293 00:16:47,090 --> 00:16:51,470 who really are adding value. And I'll tell you, Claudio, the 294 00:16:51,480 --> 00:16:55,840 difference between, you know, those who like the fakers and 295 00:16:55,850 --> 00:17:01,420 makers is execution. It's rarely the intellectual. 296 00:17:01,470 --> 00:17:03,900 You get the right answer, I get the wrong answer. 297 00:17:03,990 --> 00:17:06,069 People are usually around the target. 298 00:17:06,079 --> 00:17:09,349 Amazing. Well, I, I also notice here as I 299 00:17:09,359 --> 00:17:12,450 was researching, preparing for this podcast, that one of your 300 00:17:12,540 --> 00:17:15,430 areas of specialty was corporate healthcare. 301 00:17:15,500 --> 00:17:18,390 And I'd love to hear a little more about how did you find that 302 00:17:18,400 --> 00:17:20,470 focus? How did that area become really 303 00:17:20,480 --> 00:17:23,890 one of interest to you, especially as I think it's a 304 00:17:23,900 --> 00:17:26,230 personal thing. But also a lot of my colleagues, 305 00:17:26,280 --> 00:17:29,030 we've, we've struggled a little bit of, of back and forth and 306 00:17:29,040 --> 00:17:31,730 giving some thought and trying to, to give a try to different 307 00:17:31,740 --> 00:17:35,950 areas to see really what you're interested in, what subjects 308 00:17:35,960 --> 00:17:38,730 really pick your mind or challenging and all of that. 309 00:17:38,800 --> 00:17:42,970 How did you decide or or how did that happen that you became a 310 00:17:42,980 --> 00:17:44,270 specialist in this? Area. 311 00:17:44,330 --> 00:17:47,430 I don't think I started my career thinking this is what I 312 00:17:47,440 --> 00:17:50,430 would be doing. I started my career wanting to 313 00:17:50,440 --> 00:17:52,930 be a transactional lawyer. Truth be told, I didn't want to 314 00:17:52,940 --> 00:17:56,660 be a securities lawyer. But when you get hired back from 315 00:17:56,710 --> 00:18:00,160 at Sherman and Sterling, there's 60 or 70 of us coming back. 316 00:18:00,520 --> 00:18:05,800 You've rank and everyone wanted. So I didn't get got securities. 317 00:18:05,810 --> 00:18:10,180 And when I pivoted back to Toronto and I was doing my own 318 00:18:10,190 --> 00:18:12,520 work. Sometimes what ends up happening 319 00:18:12,530 --> 00:18:15,700 is the industry chooses you. You don't choose the industry, 320 00:18:15,850 --> 00:18:19,980 but it's also because you start becoming very comfortable and 321 00:18:19,990 --> 00:18:23,950 well versed within the industry. You know the you know, I know 322 00:18:23,960 --> 00:18:26,780 the answer. I know who to call at which 323 00:18:26,790 --> 00:18:29,620 college. I know what needs to get done 324 00:18:29,670 --> 00:18:32,320 very quickly. We're fortunate in the Canadian 325 00:18:32,330 --> 00:18:38,090 legal market space that people aren't hyper specializing, so 326 00:18:38,130 --> 00:18:41,370 you can be more well-rounded, I think. 327 00:18:41,420 --> 00:18:45,210 But also, Claudio, it's so important to not dabble in 328 00:18:45,220 --> 00:18:46,970 areas. If you're not an employment 329 00:18:46,980 --> 00:18:49,930 lawyer, don't touch it. The laws changing too fast. 330 00:18:50,020 --> 00:18:53,810 If you're not an immigration law lawyer, let it go, hand it off. 331 00:18:53,880 --> 00:18:57,410 Don't touch wills and estates. If you're not constantly why 332 00:18:57,480 --> 00:19:00,050 these areas of law end up changing really fast. 333 00:19:00,140 --> 00:19:02,120 And if you're not up to date, you're going to give wrong 334 00:19:02,130 --> 00:19:04,830 advice. But healthcare, to be honest, I 335 00:19:04,840 --> 00:19:10,530 saw a bridge between working with professionals and working 336 00:19:10,540 --> 00:19:13,470 with consolidation. There's a lot of consolidators 337 00:19:13,480 --> 00:19:15,490 in healthcare. There's, you know, whether you 338 00:19:15,500 --> 00:19:19,510 see the dental DSO's or you know, other verticals and 339 00:19:19,560 --> 00:19:24,920 you're, you're trying to marry business with patient care or 340 00:19:25,070 --> 00:19:29,780 patient experience and, and more often than not, you just develop 341 00:19:29,790 --> 00:19:34,020 that expertise and it just becomes, it almost takes care of 342 00:19:34,030 --> 00:19:36,810 itself. Like you, you find yourself in 343 00:19:36,820 --> 00:19:40,460 the traffic because you know, the industry, you think about 344 00:19:40,470 --> 00:19:43,200 some of the other pockets of industries that have crept up. 345 00:19:43,270 --> 00:19:46,920 You know, you've seen a wave of cryptocurrency lawyers. 346 00:19:46,930 --> 00:19:50,600 You've seen at one point the cannabis wave of, of people who 347 00:19:50,610 --> 00:19:53,580 became, if someone called me, I wouldn't know the answer If I 348 00:19:53,590 --> 00:19:57,250 mean, could I figure it out? Maybe I but that wasn't the area 349 00:19:57,260 --> 00:20:00,460 that I was comfortable. But I I would say, Claudio that 350 00:20:00,530 --> 00:20:04,040 the industry. Specialization is secondary to 351 00:20:04,050 --> 00:20:07,880 the area of practice focus. I'm a transactional lawyer first 352 00:20:07,890 --> 00:20:11,430 and foremost. I can execute on many different 353 00:20:12,090 --> 00:20:14,740 verticals. I can execute on different bank 354 00:20:14,750 --> 00:20:17,440 financing transactions. But when it comes to that area 355 00:20:17,450 --> 00:20:20,460 of specialty, I immediately know how to deal with the regulated 356 00:20:20,470 --> 00:20:22,560 profession. You know, whether it's 357 00:20:22,630 --> 00:20:26,000 veterinary optometry, diagnostic imaging. 358 00:20:26,130 --> 00:20:28,060 Why? Because it follows a similar 359 00:20:28,170 --> 00:20:30,630 sort of system. You have to figure out the 360 00:20:30,640 --> 00:20:33,000 regulator, you go to them for a change of ownership. 361 00:20:33,010 --> 00:20:36,660 You, you follow the but you have to know first and foremost that 362 00:20:36,670 --> 00:20:41,020 area of law because the industry specific things are almost, I 363 00:20:41,030 --> 00:20:43,500 jokingly say they're almost the closing conditions. 364 00:20:43,570 --> 00:20:46,590 You have to get the deal first before you worry about the 365 00:20:46,600 --> 00:20:49,370 industry. I'll also say that what has 366 00:20:49,380 --> 00:20:52,070 actually been probably the most instrumental, less so the 367 00:20:52,080 --> 00:20:56,610 Healthcare is trying to learn the business that we're 368 00:20:56,620 --> 00:21:00,590 transacting. Sometimes lawyers just separate 369 00:21:00,800 --> 00:21:03,460 the business from the transaction. 370 00:21:03,470 --> 00:21:07,070 And being a securities lawyer really helped for one reason. 371 00:21:07,120 --> 00:21:10,230 We were industry agnostic. We were always mostly doing 372 00:21:10,290 --> 00:21:12,250 underwriter work. So we're off for the banks and 373 00:21:12,260 --> 00:21:16,110 you would go from healthcare to coal to this to that. 374 00:21:16,120 --> 00:21:18,030 You're jumping from industry to industry. 375 00:21:18,240 --> 00:21:19,710 Well, how do you learn an industry? 376 00:21:19,880 --> 00:21:23,110 Go read the risk factors. Go open a prospectus and read 377 00:21:23,120 --> 00:21:25,140 the risk factors. It's going to tell you what's 378 00:21:25,150 --> 00:21:28,170 keeping management up at at night, and it's also going to 379 00:21:28,180 --> 00:21:31,200 tell you the worst part and the worst news about the industry 380 00:21:31,210 --> 00:21:33,470 because it's sitting that's the way they play in sure. 381 00:21:33,480 --> 00:21:34,920 That's the way they play defence, right? 382 00:21:34,930 --> 00:21:38,480 The more they disclose. And that's kind of the I always, 383 00:21:38,570 --> 00:21:40,660 from my perspective, I always start with a client and say, 384 00:21:41,130 --> 00:21:44,440 what are the things that scare you about this deal? 385 00:21:44,490 --> 00:21:46,740 What are those risk factors we're solving? 386 00:21:46,790 --> 00:21:50,060 And then you work backwards to get to the document to get the 387 00:21:50,070 --> 00:21:54,650 document responsive as sort of the the tool to shield you from 388 00:21:54,660 --> 00:21:56,120 those risks. Amazing. 389 00:21:56,250 --> 00:21:59,240 So we, we've touched on execution, talked a little bit 390 00:21:59,250 --> 00:22:03,200 about how you started your career and now I'd love to hear 391 00:22:03,210 --> 00:22:05,800 a little more about your thought leadership as well. 392 00:22:05,850 --> 00:22:10,080 You've written quite a bit on integrity, character, leadership 393 00:22:10,090 --> 00:22:14,210 in business and I'd love to here a little bit more about how do 394 00:22:14,220 --> 00:22:17,910 you translate those personal values also in your current role 395 00:22:17,920 --> 00:22:21,550 as a managing partner to, I'm sure to some extent, you know, 396 00:22:21,560 --> 00:22:24,710 to be part of the firm culture, to be part of the client 397 00:22:24,720 --> 00:22:26,570 relationships. It's a great question. 398 00:22:26,580 --> 00:22:30,640 It's, it's a humbling question, but I'll, I'll be honest and say 399 00:22:30,650 --> 00:22:34,780 that I'm fortunate to have parents who taught me good 400 00:22:34,790 --> 00:22:36,360 values. It's foundational. 401 00:22:36,410 --> 00:22:41,480 And I think oftentimes if you always measure yourself by what 402 00:22:41,490 --> 00:22:46,950 the 10 year old you would think of present day you, that's the 403 00:22:46,960 --> 00:22:48,980 test. We all go through these points 404 00:22:48,990 --> 00:22:52,130 in our career. We succeed, we excel, we 405 00:22:52,140 --> 00:22:56,390 graduate and we think lawyers are supposed to act a certain 406 00:22:56,400 --> 00:22:59,730 way or we think whatever sort of that role. 407 00:22:59,740 --> 00:23:05,660 And I think those misconceptions unfortunately are 10 year olds 408 00:23:05,670 --> 00:23:09,200 wouldn't really sometimes like how we act. 409 00:23:09,210 --> 00:23:13,220 I approach my every encounter with everyone looking to learn 410 00:23:13,230 --> 00:23:16,900 from them. I don't care who or what role 411 00:23:16,910 --> 00:23:22,820 they are. I also think the the idea of 412 00:23:22,890 --> 00:23:27,340 treating people with respect will never cause you any issues. 413 00:23:27,410 --> 00:23:30,780 You will always be OK if you treat people well. 414 00:23:30,830 --> 00:23:34,270 That's what guides my my journey. 415 00:23:34,280 --> 00:23:38,070 I always say, you know, when people say how you write on 416 00:23:38,080 --> 00:23:42,710 LinkedIn, I say, honestly, I'm imperfect in so many ways. 417 00:23:42,720 --> 00:23:46,610 And this is my shared journey. Yeah, there are days I write. 418 00:23:46,620 --> 00:23:49,970 It's been a tough few days, but I get it. 419 00:23:50,020 --> 00:23:53,970 Not every day is a wind. And it's all about how do we 420 00:23:53,980 --> 00:23:58,090 sort of rise from that? I think people thrive from 421 00:23:58,100 --> 00:24:01,150 consistency. Be consistent in your dealings. 422 00:24:01,200 --> 00:24:04,730 Treat people with the respect you want to be treated with. 423 00:24:04,820 --> 00:24:08,510 If you really live by the golden rule, do unto others as you want 424 00:24:08,520 --> 00:24:11,110 others to do unto you. You won't have to think about 425 00:24:11,120 --> 00:24:14,330 anything twice. Culturally at Loopster Nixon, we 426 00:24:14,370 --> 00:24:18,400 we have great people. You know, I share this story 427 00:24:18,410 --> 00:24:20,860 jokingly, but it's it really happened. 428 00:24:20,910 --> 00:24:27,300 We had a, an inter starting and our finance teams, you know, I, 429 00:24:27,310 --> 00:24:29,040 I like to say hello to everybody I see. 430 00:24:29,050 --> 00:24:31,660 And I went to her and I was like, hey, what's your name? 431 00:24:31,670 --> 00:24:34,040 And she was gracious enough to share her name. 432 00:24:34,470 --> 00:24:35,840 And she's like, oh, So what do you do here? 433 00:24:35,850 --> 00:24:38,260 And I said, oh, I'm the janitor. She's like, oh, that's amazing. 434 00:24:38,310 --> 00:24:41,500 And today I saw her. We were having a celebration for 435 00:24:41,510 --> 00:24:43,250 somebody today. And I saw her. 436 00:24:43,260 --> 00:24:45,140 She's like, you're not the janitor. 437 00:24:45,390 --> 00:24:49,590 I was like, yeah, I could be. And I said, you know, I have so 438 00:24:49,600 --> 00:24:53,280 much respect for your reaction to me being the janitor because 439 00:24:53,290 --> 00:24:56,280 you were so positive and I loved it. 440 00:24:56,370 --> 00:24:59,440 So, you know, you try not to take things too seriously. 441 00:24:59,490 --> 00:25:02,760 You try to be empathetic. Everyone has a journey and 442 00:25:02,770 --> 00:25:05,760 everyone has a story. But I I'll tell you, Claudio, if 443 00:25:05,770 --> 00:25:08,820 you treat people with respect, it will never let you down. 444 00:25:08,910 --> 00:25:11,130 Fantastic. Well, I really appreciate you 445 00:25:11,140 --> 00:25:13,690 sharing that. It's always interesting and 446 00:25:13,740 --> 00:25:17,210 honestly, personally exciting to know that you're in a profession 447 00:25:17,220 --> 00:25:18,770 with people who have those thoughts. 448 00:25:18,840 --> 00:25:22,490 So it's, it's very nice to know that I'm joining a profession 449 00:25:22,500 --> 00:25:25,590 with that. And I know that lots of my peers 450 00:25:25,600 --> 00:25:28,770 feel the same way. So I really appreciate you, you 451 00:25:28,820 --> 00:25:32,330 bringing that up. And as far as questions here, I 452 00:25:32,340 --> 00:25:34,760 have two more to wrap up today's episodes. 453 00:25:34,770 --> 00:25:38,190 So I also saw that you have some experience in strategic 454 00:25:38,200 --> 00:25:39,890 marketing. If I understand you, you did an 455 00:25:39,900 --> 00:25:42,910 MBA and I'd, I'd love to hear a little bit about, you know, how 456 00:25:42,920 --> 00:25:46,870 that has helped you to, to have, I guess, like a business lens 457 00:25:46,880 --> 00:25:50,230 and, and how that you know, enhances your approach in your 458 00:25:50,240 --> 00:25:53,270 legal practice, in your negotiation, confirm management. 459 00:25:53,320 --> 00:25:56,190 I could tell that a lot of the, the points that we shared in 460 00:25:56,200 --> 00:26:00,010 this conversation before are not what you'd usually learning law 461 00:26:00,020 --> 00:26:03,590 school, but I'm sure that there's a mix of not only what 462 00:26:03,600 --> 00:26:06,930 you learned in your MBA as well, a lot of life lessons, right. 463 00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:09,550 So I'd love to hear what are your thoughts on? 464 00:26:09,560 --> 00:26:12,160 That I would tell you that I would encourage every young 465 00:26:12,170 --> 00:26:18,290 lawyer to find a business course to take, get comfortable around 466 00:26:18,300 --> 00:26:23,230 business, read offering memorandums or prospectuses, not 467 00:26:23,240 --> 00:26:26,290 not from a legal lens, just get familiar. 468 00:26:26,720 --> 00:26:31,270 I think what ends up happening, Claudio, is when you, you know, 469 00:26:31,340 --> 00:26:34,550 you know the if you know, you know, when a client calls a 470 00:26:34,560 --> 00:26:38,560 lawyer and the lawyer is well versed in business, actually, 471 00:26:38,930 --> 00:26:42,970 it, it builds that trust and rapport in a way they don't have 472 00:26:42,980 --> 00:26:45,580 to explain industry to you. They send you financial 473 00:26:45,590 --> 00:26:47,020 statements. You're looking saying, hey, 474 00:26:47,090 --> 00:26:48,880 we're paying this long term debt off, right? 475 00:26:49,110 --> 00:26:52,580 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Versus your own closing and you 476 00:26:52,590 --> 00:26:57,080 magically find 2.7 or $20 million of long term debt that 477 00:26:57,090 --> 00:26:58,780 no one contemplated. Right. 478 00:26:58,830 --> 00:27:04,760 And my MBA, like law school MBA and law school are very similar 479 00:27:04,770 --> 00:27:09,620 in that they are a gateway or they're a key, but they're not a 480 00:27:09,630 --> 00:27:12,680 destination on their own. You, you think back to law 481 00:27:12,690 --> 00:27:14,720 school and you go through everything. 482 00:27:14,790 --> 00:27:19,090 Law school doesn't teach you information, but it teaches you 483 00:27:19,100 --> 00:27:20,980 how to think. You don't realize it while 484 00:27:20,990 --> 00:27:23,500 you're in it, right, Because you get into the practice. 485 00:27:23,510 --> 00:27:25,880 And Claudia, you were telling me about your journey and, and the 486 00:27:25,890 --> 00:27:29,520 cool things you're doing today re orgs and minute books. 487 00:27:29,530 --> 00:27:32,540 And I don't remember what class you took that that talked about 488 00:27:32,550 --> 00:27:34,920 any of that stuff. No, no, no, right. 489 00:27:34,930 --> 00:27:38,900 But it taught you how to say, yeah, I got to look at the OCA 490 00:27:38,910 --> 00:27:40,780 and I understand where I need to be. 491 00:27:40,790 --> 00:27:44,170 And I get a corporation and I, you get the structural and the 492 00:27:44,180 --> 00:27:48,140 high level strategic marketing is strategic thinking, always 493 00:27:48,150 --> 00:27:52,200 trying to think big picture and a global level of what am I 494 00:27:52,210 --> 00:27:53,820 helping? How can I help my clients? 495 00:27:53,830 --> 00:27:57,760 How can I add value? You want to be a trusted advisor 496 00:27:57,850 --> 00:28:00,730 that they can't go to war without you in their corner. 497 00:28:00,790 --> 00:28:03,490 Amazing. To wrap up today's episode, why 498 00:28:03,500 --> 00:28:06,510 don't you ask you, and especially focusing on those 499 00:28:06,520 --> 00:28:09,980 young lawyers and law students who are listening in today, is 500 00:28:09,990 --> 00:28:12,630 there anything that you wish somebody had told you about 501 00:28:12,640 --> 00:28:15,850 building a meaningful and sustainable legal career? 502 00:28:15,900 --> 00:28:19,330 So I always say to people, you have two currencies in law. 503 00:28:19,680 --> 00:28:23,070 You either have your hours or your book. 504 00:28:23,080 --> 00:28:26,410 Don't let your career fly by building someone else's career. 505 00:28:26,460 --> 00:28:32,200 If someone isn't encouraging you to soar and ascend, then maybe 506 00:28:32,210 --> 00:28:34,930 they're not the right person you want to work with. 507 00:28:35,100 --> 00:28:38,330 There's a time and a place for you to be training and you 508 00:28:38,340 --> 00:28:40,770 continue to train. But you know in those down 509 00:28:40,780 --> 00:28:43,790 moments when you have some time, go find someone and have a 510 00:28:43,800 --> 00:28:47,070 coffee with. Build your network, plant seeds. 511 00:28:47,080 --> 00:28:50,150 Don't sit back and assume work as just going to come find you, 512 00:28:50,220 --> 00:28:51,830 find you. It doesn't. 513 00:28:51,880 --> 00:28:56,890 I think the more people are out there building their network and 514 00:28:56,900 --> 00:29:00,070 connecting. You and I were fortunate for 515 00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:02,330 LinkedIn. We connected through that and 516 00:29:02,340 --> 00:29:05,190 what an amazing journey. I said to you and I will say 517 00:29:05,270 --> 00:29:09,000 repeatedly, it is people like you who inspire people like me 518 00:29:09,010 --> 00:29:11,730 each and every day. You got out of your comfort zone 519 00:29:11,740 --> 00:29:15,010 and you did something extraordinary and through that 520 00:29:15,020 --> 00:29:17,820 you, you connected all these people together. 521 00:29:17,830 --> 00:29:19,960 Everyone is connected through Claudia. 522 00:29:20,030 --> 00:29:22,990 You plant seeds and you don't know when they come to fruition. 523 00:29:23,050 --> 00:29:27,520 I share with people this idea. There is a misnomer that 524 00:29:27,590 --> 00:29:31,240 business development means I go to coffee with someone or I take 525 00:29:31,250 --> 00:29:33,940 someone to lunch and tomorrow I get a file. 526 00:29:34,010 --> 00:29:38,360 No, it doesn't work that way. This is our career is really 527 00:29:38,420 --> 00:29:41,600 it's a journey, but don't say, OK, I'm going to work for five 528 00:29:41,610 --> 00:29:44,160 years heads down, then it's going to click. 529 00:29:44,210 --> 00:29:47,140 No, it's what are you doing today to plant seeds? 530 00:29:47,210 --> 00:29:51,380 You know, your colleagues were lawyers at other firms will have 531 00:29:51,390 --> 00:29:53,520 conflicts that need to be referred out. 532 00:29:53,770 --> 00:29:57,360 Are you in touch with them? Your, your, your colleagues who 533 00:29:57,370 --> 00:30:01,380 went to Business School or went to, I don't know, where are you 534 00:30:01,390 --> 00:30:03,550 in touch with them? People you went to high school 535 00:30:03,560 --> 00:30:04,950 with? And the the point of the 536 00:30:04,960 --> 00:30:07,820 conversation is to grow together and soar together. 537 00:30:07,890 --> 00:30:12,360 And as I'm sort of hitting midpoint in my career, I look 538 00:30:12,370 --> 00:30:15,040 around and see some of the people I went to elementary 539 00:30:15,050 --> 00:30:17,230 school with doing extraordinary things. 540 00:30:17,240 --> 00:30:19,400 And you're like, wow, that's just extraordinary. 541 00:30:19,410 --> 00:30:23,640 And you celebrate each other, but don't sit back own your 542 00:30:23,650 --> 00:30:25,740 career. Because if you're just going to 543 00:30:25,750 --> 00:30:30,140 do someone else's work forever, there comes a day where people 544 00:30:30,150 --> 00:30:34,330 are going to look and say, what value added are you bringing to 545 00:30:34,340 --> 00:30:36,650 the table? I don't want this to be a 546 00:30:36,660 --> 00:30:42,430 stressful thing because I'll tell you, we got to New York. 547 00:30:42,440 --> 00:30:45,300 They said go do business development and you think you're 548 00:30:45,310 --> 00:30:47,730 going to go to coffee with Claudio and tomorrow you're 549 00:30:47,740 --> 00:30:50,290 getting a deal from Name the Bank. 550 00:30:50,340 --> 00:30:53,780 No, it doesn't work that way. But you become a trusted member 551 00:30:53,790 --> 00:30:56,160 of the team that that banker knows. 552 00:30:56,170 --> 00:30:58,340 He's like, yeah, that's awesome. We're working with Sherman and 553 00:30:58,350 --> 00:31:02,310 Sterling Peters on the file. Well, in 710 years, when that 554 00:31:02,320 --> 00:31:05,670 person is senior banker and you're a senior lawyer, you 555 00:31:05,680 --> 00:31:06,430 grow. You grow. 556 00:31:06,440 --> 00:31:08,390 With your peers, amazing. Less so now. 557 00:31:08,400 --> 00:31:11,270 I really appreciate that. And I think it's a, it's a, it's 558 00:31:11,280 --> 00:31:14,920 an incredible reminder for us to continue on building those 559 00:31:14,930 --> 00:31:17,730 relationships. And I, I really like what you're 560 00:31:17,740 --> 00:31:21,490 saying as well that it doesn't come out of just a building a 561 00:31:21,500 --> 00:31:25,040 business or building a book. It really comes on how can I 562 00:31:25,100 --> 00:31:28,820 help out these other people that at once we're seated by me and 563 00:31:28,830 --> 00:31:31,400 we helped each other with homework and all of that. 564 00:31:31,410 --> 00:31:34,780 And how can we do the same now in, in the professional market? 565 00:31:34,790 --> 00:31:37,440 So it's really amazing. I appreciate you sharing those. 566 00:31:37,510 --> 00:31:40,250 Thank you. And I think we are fortunate to 567 00:31:40,260 --> 00:31:43,600 have thought leaders and people like you and the profession who 568 00:31:43,690 --> 00:31:47,060 work hard, do extraordinarily well, but also treat people 569 00:31:47,070 --> 00:31:49,480 well. And you, you know, you don't 570 00:31:49,490 --> 00:31:52,620 have to to be successful and you don't have to be a jerk. 571 00:31:52,670 --> 00:31:54,860 Just be you. Nothing else that I can say to 572 00:31:54,870 --> 00:31:57,780 finish this podcast. I just really thank you for your 573 00:31:57,790 --> 00:32:01,100 time and thank you all for tuning into today's episode.