1 00:00:12,870 --> 00:00:14,800 Welcome to Studying Law Around the World. 2 00:00:15,010 --> 00:00:17,860 I'm Claudio Claus. In each episode, I talk with 3 00:00:17,870 --> 00:00:20,840 lawyers, law students, and professors from different parts 4 00:00:20,850 --> 00:00:24,740 of the world to talk about legal education, careers, and what the 5 00:00:24,750 --> 00:00:26,420 profession looks like in real life. 6 00:00:26,430 --> 00:00:29,470 We talk about the hard parts, the surprises, and the decisions 7 00:00:29,480 --> 00:00:32,259 that shaped their paths. Whether you're planning to study 8 00:00:32,270 --> 00:00:35,520 abroad, thinking about working in another legal system, or just 9 00:00:35,530 --> 00:00:39,640 curious about how law works around the world, this podcast 10 00:00:39,650 --> 00:00:44,640 is for you. Today I'm hosting Danielle 11 00:00:44,810 --> 00:00:47,960 Bartoli. He's a managing associate at 12 00:00:48,030 --> 00:00:51,420 Gatti Pavesi. I see here that you joined Gatti 13 00:00:51,430 --> 00:00:53,700 Pavesi as soon as you're finished law school. 14 00:00:53,810 --> 00:00:56,160 So I wanted to hear a little bit about, you know, your current 15 00:00:56,170 --> 00:00:59,320 role and and your story. Yeah, as you were saying, I'm 16 00:00:59,360 --> 00:01:04,000 bugging us who said the firm which is a full service law and 17 00:01:04,010 --> 00:01:08,720 tax firm with offices in Milan, Rome, London and Luxembourg and 18 00:01:08,730 --> 00:01:11,420 based in Milan. I'm originally from Venice, but 19 00:01:11,770 --> 00:01:16,080 I first moved to Bologna for study purposes and then moved 20 00:01:16,090 --> 00:01:19,600 here in Milan to work. As I was saying, agenda firm 21 00:01:19,610 --> 00:01:24,880 into our 2016 actually is more like I joined the 10 days 22 00:01:25,260 --> 00:01:28,410 alright, graduated by the way. Every time I find myself saying 23 00:01:28,420 --> 00:01:31,350 this to someone, I think I should have taken a vacation 24 00:01:31,400 --> 00:01:34,190 before I started. To be honest about jokes asides, 25 00:01:34,200 --> 00:01:40,470 I am really happier. I joined almost 10 years ago and 26 00:01:40,820 --> 00:01:43,530 I am active in the corporate department. 27 00:01:43,540 --> 00:01:48,250 I often advise the private equity players as well as 28 00:01:48,260 --> 00:01:52,660 industrial and within the firm, I'm currently part of the 29 00:01:52,670 --> 00:01:57,060 so-called innovation committee as well, which was set up within 30 00:01:57,070 --> 00:02:00,720 the firm and is responsible for guiding the terms digital 31 00:02:00,730 --> 00:02:03,640 transformation. Of course, trying to make legal 32 00:02:03,650 --> 00:02:06,620 services more efficient, secure, cutting edge. 33 00:02:06,690 --> 00:02:12,180 We are experimenting AI tools and trying to adapt them into 34 00:02:12,190 --> 00:02:16,300 our work. And lastly, speaking about rows, 35 00:02:16,550 --> 00:02:21,860 since July 2025, I'm a national representative for Italy within 36 00:02:21,870 --> 00:02:25,300 the Young Lawyers Committee, just like you are for Canada, if 37 00:02:25,310 --> 00:02:28,360 I'm not wrong, for the International Bar Association 38 00:02:28,410 --> 00:02:30,840 with about two years there. Fantastic. 39 00:02:30,850 --> 00:02:32,540 Well, thank you for sharing that, Daniel. 40 00:02:32,830 --> 00:02:36,840 And I'm, I'm curious here, what first drew you to corporate laws 41 00:02:36,910 --> 00:02:40,640 to M and A transactions? Did you start specifically on 42 00:02:40,650 --> 00:02:43,280 this row or did you have rotations in your firm? 43 00:02:43,350 --> 00:02:46,280 How did that work for you? Actually when I joined there 44 00:02:46,290 --> 00:02:54,400 were some open positions in and private equity and basically you 45 00:02:54,410 --> 00:02:58,800 can switch position once you are into the firm, but it's not that 46 00:02:58,810 --> 00:03:02,940 common. So I, I started with within the 47 00:03:02,950 --> 00:03:07,140 corporate M and A-Team my boss because there are a lot of teams 48 00:03:07,340 --> 00:03:10,700 working, I mean core business together with the tax and 49 00:03:10,710 --> 00:03:13,430 litigation. So there are I think 10 teams. 50 00:03:13,440 --> 00:03:19,820 I started work with this team and I never left it at the very 51 00:03:19,830 --> 00:03:23,120 beginning. I worked also with Professor 52 00:03:23,130 --> 00:03:26,130 Bianchi, one of the main partners who is a professor at 53 00:03:26,140 --> 00:03:29,560 the Bocconi University. So it was more like also 54 00:03:29,690 --> 00:03:35,760 opinions or university related work, but but indeed was from 55 00:03:35,770 --> 00:03:38,720 the beginning with the. Amazing. 56 00:03:38,730 --> 00:03:41,260 And I want to hear a little more about you know the money 57 00:03:41,270 --> 00:03:45,800 transactions, private equity cross-border deals specifically 58 00:03:45,810 --> 00:03:48,680 for from you know in Italian perspective. 59 00:03:48,730 --> 00:03:51,940 So what makes these transactions challenging? 60 00:03:51,950 --> 00:03:54,910 Interesting on your perspective? Yeah. 61 00:03:55,130 --> 00:04:00,100 And to say what first drew me to corporate law also when I was a 62 00:04:00,150 --> 00:04:04,910 student was then mix of strategy and real world impact. 63 00:04:04,920 --> 00:04:09,750 You know, I mean it, it's not just abstract legal theories, 64 00:04:09,760 --> 00:04:14,110 low emotion where decisions immediately shape companies, 65 00:04:14,160 --> 00:04:17,589 people and markets. And there's also something 66 00:04:17,600 --> 00:04:20,290 almost narrative we we could say about it. 67 00:04:20,300 --> 00:04:24,730 I mean, every day deal story, a company scaling up another 68 00:04:24,800 --> 00:04:28,030 people thing, founders making defining choices. 69 00:04:28,040 --> 00:04:31,720 And as a lawyer, you are right there in the middle translating 70 00:04:31,730 --> 00:04:36,210 that story into legal structure. And then there's complexity, of 71 00:04:36,220 --> 00:04:39,430 course, the transaction. Transaction is never 72 00:04:39,440 --> 00:04:41,890 straightforward. They are constantly piercing 73 00:04:41,900 --> 00:04:46,080 together legal, financial and strategic elements are. 74 00:04:46,090 --> 00:04:50,740 So I think that is very, very challenging and going to private 75 00:04:50,750 --> 00:04:55,250 equity and cross-border deals specifically when you work in 76 00:04:55,260 --> 00:04:57,040 that area. You are right. 77 00:04:57,050 --> 00:05:02,520 And at the intersection of strategy, finance and law, what 78 00:05:02,530 --> 00:05:05,600 really elevates the the challenge is the number of 79 00:05:05,650 --> 00:05:09,260 moving parts happening simultaneously across different 80 00:05:09,270 --> 00:05:12,420 jurisdictions. And they connect the need to 81 00:05:12,470 --> 00:05:15,940 liaise with a lot of lawyers and advisors acting in different 82 00:05:15,950 --> 00:05:18,100 countries for a legal perspective. 83 00:05:18,110 --> 00:05:21,140 Of course, one of the biggest challenges is navigating the 84 00:05:21,150 --> 00:05:24,290 multiple legal systems. Once you're not just dealing 85 00:05:24,300 --> 00:05:28,280 with a set of rules, you need to coordinate between different 86 00:05:28,290 --> 00:05:32,620 regulatory brainwash frameworks to corporate laws, tax regimes. 87 00:05:32,630 --> 00:05:36,320 And it also involves for instance, being updated from the 88 00:05:36,410 --> 00:05:40,230 political standpoint. I would say, for example, as you 89 00:05:40,240 --> 00:05:44,780 know, in recent years, FDI regimes or golden power, the 90 00:05:44,790 --> 00:05:47,720 so-called the golden power provisions have been introduced 91 00:05:47,730 --> 00:05:51,140 or reinforced by granting government veto powers over 92 00:05:51,150 --> 00:05:55,040 cross-border transactions that could theoretically result in 93 00:05:55,090 --> 00:05:58,320 foreign investors gaining control of strategic assets. 94 00:05:58,390 --> 00:06:02,140 So engaging in cross-border transactions also means 95 00:06:02,150 --> 00:06:06,740 understanding these these issues and knowing how to address them 96 00:06:06,750 --> 00:06:09,920 in in advance. And then when you're working 97 00:06:10,270 --> 00:06:12,750 with private equity players, especially, you know, 98 00:06:12,760 --> 00:06:17,390 cross-border environment, that was the structure itself, which 99 00:06:17,400 --> 00:06:20,630 is very complex. I mean, there are these type of 100 00:06:20,640 --> 00:06:24,690 transactions are often highly engineered, leveraged buyout 101 00:06:24,700 --> 00:06:29,190 minority investments, complex exit strategies listings. 102 00:06:29,260 --> 00:06:33,470 And each transaction requires careful legal design to bars, 103 00:06:33,480 --> 00:06:37,310 you know, or risk and returns and talking about risk. 104 00:06:37,760 --> 00:06:41,970 These deals think involving tense negotiation over, for 105 00:06:41,980 --> 00:06:46,170 instance, raccoon warranties, indemnities and increasingly 106 00:06:46,180 --> 00:06:48,870 things like PSG related profiles. 107 00:06:48,940 --> 00:06:53,580 And so the legal documentation becomes too, not just to record 108 00:06:53,590 --> 00:06:57,720 the deal, but to shape our risk, is shared between parties 109 00:06:57,730 --> 00:07:00,100 overtime. And then of course there is the 110 00:07:00,340 --> 00:07:05,000 timing and execution pressure because you have high deadlines, 111 00:07:05,010 --> 00:07:09,340 significant capital involved. And being able to manage all 112 00:07:09,350 --> 00:07:13,000 this while liaising with different countries and 113 00:07:13,050 --> 00:07:16,340 different cultures, I think it's very challenging. 114 00:07:16,410 --> 00:07:20,020 It makes it very, very exciting. I'm curious on another point 115 00:07:20,030 --> 00:07:23,400 when when advising the the clients that you have in 116 00:07:23,410 --> 00:07:26,520 transactions related to investment funds companies, 117 00:07:26,610 --> 00:07:29,720 strategic partnerships where there is some kind of change 118 00:07:29,770 --> 00:07:33,820 native to that transition be companies taking over in all of 119 00:07:33,830 --> 00:07:37,260 those employees might be you know changing and management to 120 00:07:37,270 --> 00:07:40,620 the new company that's taken taking over or any kind of 121 00:07:40,630 --> 00:07:42,880 change really that that comes into play. 122 00:07:42,950 --> 00:07:46,120 How do you approach that that change in your advice? 123 00:07:46,170 --> 00:07:49,380 Yeah, if you can, there is a very interesting part of the job 124 00:07:49,390 --> 00:07:53,780 because I mean, I would say that the legal toolkit, OK, stays the 125 00:07:53,790 --> 00:07:58,260 same of course, but the mindset shifts quite a bit depending on 126 00:07:58,270 --> 00:08:02,210 who you are advising. Of course, when you are working 127 00:08:02,220 --> 00:08:06,490 with private equity players, the approach is usually very dildo 128 00:08:06,500 --> 00:08:10,280 driven efficiency, focus. These clients, you know are 129 00:08:10,290 --> 00:08:14,190 highly sophisticated. You can reach maybe higher 130 00:08:14,200 --> 00:08:17,990 levels intellectually wise because they've done many 131 00:08:18,000 --> 00:08:22,330 transactions before and they tend to have a clear play on 132 00:08:22,480 --> 00:08:26,850 their role becomes about more execution at the high level. 133 00:08:27,220 --> 00:08:30,670 So you need to anticipate issues, streamline the process, 134 00:08:30,680 --> 00:08:34,429 and you need to focus heavily on the risk allocation exit 135 00:08:34,440 --> 00:08:37,380 strategy from day one because of course, when they're completing 136 00:08:37,390 --> 00:08:41,070 the the deal, kind of already looking at the other one and 137 00:08:41,080 --> 00:08:45,910 thinking about how to exit, how to, you know, get the returns on 138 00:08:45,920 --> 00:08:49,050 their capital invested. With industrial companies, the 139 00:08:49,060 --> 00:08:53,330 perspective is often more long term, I would say, and 140 00:08:53,340 --> 00:08:55,810 operational. And they're not just looking at 141 00:08:55,820 --> 00:08:59,070 the transaction as a financial investment. 142 00:08:59,170 --> 00:09:01,670 Of course, they are too, but not solely. 143 00:09:01,720 --> 00:09:05,990 They look at it as something that needs to integrate into 144 00:09:06,000 --> 00:09:09,680 their business people, processes, supply chains. 145 00:09:09,690 --> 00:09:13,070 And so you spend more time, I would say, on due diligence. 146 00:09:13,080 --> 00:09:19,050 And within that era, you focus beyond the legal risks and the 147 00:09:19,060 --> 00:09:22,790 specific meaning you will need to think how the deal will 148 00:09:22,800 --> 00:09:26,580 actually function those Rosing and you have to make sure that 149 00:09:26,590 --> 00:09:29,960 the contractor framework supports that integration. 150 00:09:29,970 --> 00:09:34,160 Also contractor wise, sometimes you you need to draft clauses 151 00:09:34,170 --> 00:09:39,180 which are very, very specific and trying to take all the day 152 00:09:39,190 --> 00:09:43,620 by day potential issues. Also with strategic partnership 153 00:09:43,690 --> 00:09:47,750 or joint ventures, it becomes something even more nuanced 154 00:09:47,760 --> 00:09:51,240 because there are often alignment between parties are 155 00:09:51,250 --> 00:09:54,760 going to work together over time, sometimes without a clean 156 00:09:54,770 --> 00:09:57,860 exit inside. So the focus shifted over 157 00:09:57,870 --> 00:10:01,500 governance decision making mechanism and this put the 158 00:10:01,510 --> 00:10:05,710 resolution marine, marine like normal clothes in this kind of 159 00:10:05,720 --> 00:10:08,810 transaction. It's the deadlock flows, you 160 00:10:08,820 --> 00:10:12,990 know, you try to anticipate how to resolve so and that kind of 161 00:10:13,000 --> 00:10:16,770 issue which may arise. So yeah, I think it's 162 00:10:16,780 --> 00:10:20,170 fascinating that you're constantly recalibrating and not 163 00:10:20,180 --> 00:10:23,510 just based on the transaction, but also on their clients 164 00:10:23,520 --> 00:10:29,000 priorities, the risk appetite, how they define or so the term, 165 00:10:29,010 --> 00:10:33,790 the concept of success because it also changes depending on the 166 00:10:33,800 --> 00:10:36,810 client you are advising. Reading about your story and 167 00:10:36,860 --> 00:10:39,950 your practice, I also learned that part of your experience 168 00:10:39,960 --> 00:10:44,110 includes at Secunderabad at a leading engineering group that 169 00:10:44,120 --> 00:10:47,470 focuses on downstream energy technology and projects. 170 00:10:47,540 --> 00:10:49,890 So I wanted to ask you a little more about how did that 171 00:10:49,900 --> 00:10:53,910 experience go for you and how working inside the company also 172 00:10:53,920 --> 00:10:57,480 helped you and, you know, way shapes, the way you think about 173 00:10:57,490 --> 00:11:00,560 businesses and the way you deliver legal advice. 174 00:11:00,610 --> 00:11:07,520 Yeah, in 2018 I was accounted for like 9 months, wasn't think 175 00:11:07,580 --> 00:11:12,420 at the legal department of Mira. Tecnimont's name is a Italian 176 00:11:12,430 --> 00:11:18,160 listed company which is active, as you were saying, EPC services 177 00:11:18,170 --> 00:11:22,930 business area focusing on chemical production and large 178 00:11:22,940 --> 00:11:27,500 scale power plants. And to say that experience was 179 00:11:27,510 --> 00:11:31,600 honestly a turning point in how I think about the legal advice 180 00:11:31,670 --> 00:11:36,110 also now, because when you're in private practice, of course you 181 00:11:36,120 --> 00:11:40,960 tend to see things in that relatively defined moments, 182 00:11:40,970 --> 00:11:44,960 specific questions, specific transactions, so specific risks 183 00:11:44,970 --> 00:11:49,140 to deliver that opinion, to solve that problem, to interpret 184 00:11:49,210 --> 00:11:52,360 that clause. But working inside the company 185 00:11:52,470 --> 00:11:55,080 completely changes your perspective, I would say, 186 00:11:55,150 --> 00:11:59,190 because you are suddenly part of the decision making process from 187 00:11:59,200 --> 00:12:02,190 the inside. So if you are part of the legal 188 00:12:02,200 --> 00:12:06,470 function and you get involved also in the business decisions, 189 00:12:06,520 --> 00:12:09,810 so you're not just advising from the outside. 190 00:12:09,860 --> 00:12:13,230 And we're really struck me is how legal advice fits into a 191 00:12:13,240 --> 00:12:17,110 much broader set of constraints. It's not just about what is 192 00:12:17,160 --> 00:12:21,510 legally correct, it's about finding cost, operational 193 00:12:21,520 --> 00:12:25,530 feasibility, also internal politics, because I found it 194 00:12:25,720 --> 00:12:29,460 that checks and balances inside the company are much more 195 00:12:29,470 --> 00:12:33,570 complex than in a in a firm. And you realize very quickly 196 00:12:33,580 --> 00:12:38,310 that the perfect legal solution that actually slows down a 197 00:12:38,320 --> 00:12:42,660 project or makes it unworkable in practice isn't actually 198 00:12:42,670 --> 00:12:44,210 helpful. And talking about their 199 00:12:44,220 --> 00:12:48,930 engineering realities, Actually, during the secondment, I spent a 200 00:12:48,940 --> 00:12:51,820 period in Kazakhstan. I remembered that I was sent 201 00:12:51,830 --> 00:12:56,270 there like 2 months out there. I started the period in the 202 00:12:56,280 --> 00:12:58,270 company. So it was very exciting. 203 00:12:58,360 --> 00:13:02,470 And we spent all the time at the premises of joint venture 204 00:13:02,480 --> 00:13:05,330 between minor Tecnimont and a local player. 205 00:13:05,400 --> 00:13:08,030 We had to negotiate our new shareholders agreement. 206 00:13:08,080 --> 00:13:11,170 And yeah, it was very cool to carry on discussions at the 207 00:13:11,180 --> 00:13:14,190 actual engineering offices there in Astana. 208 00:13:15,480 --> 00:13:18,310 Let's see there we the business functions. 209 00:13:19,040 --> 00:13:24,330 There was also the HR manager, remember after every round of 210 00:13:24,340 --> 00:13:29,990 negotiation where like wrapping up and discussing and I saw how 211 00:13:30,180 --> 00:13:34,730 my legal perspective fitted in also the perspective and the 212 00:13:34,740 --> 00:13:39,100 advice is all the business, the HR, the other people at the 213 00:13:39,110 --> 00:13:41,010 table. So it was the turning point 214 00:13:41,080 --> 00:13:42,970 really. But anyway, talking about the 215 00:13:42,980 --> 00:13:46,950 skills that you are doing a secondment, I think it also 216 00:13:46,960 --> 00:13:52,710 makes you much more aware of how advice is received or not, just 217 00:13:52,720 --> 00:13:56,090 how you have to deliver it. Because in-house teams don't 218 00:13:56,100 --> 00:14:00,590 need long memos, long opinions. You know, sometimes you have to 219 00:14:00,600 --> 00:14:04,270 admit those from a firm perspective, you plan to, to 220 00:14:04,340 --> 00:14:08,290 deliver all their performances. But in the company, when you are 221 00:14:08,300 --> 00:14:11,290 in a company, other people, the business people for instance, 222 00:14:11,300 --> 00:14:14,730 they need the clear actionable guidance, they need to 223 00:14:14,740 --> 00:14:18,740 understand the risk, but also what they can do about it. 224 00:14:18,750 --> 00:14:23,630 You have to be very practical, pragmatic and solution oriented. 225 00:14:23,640 --> 00:14:27,250 And I think that another big sheet is empathy because you see 226 00:14:27,260 --> 00:14:30,750 first hand the pressure that business teams are under 227 00:14:30,800 --> 00:14:33,910 deadlines, budgets, performance targets. 228 00:14:34,020 --> 00:14:38,000 And that changes how you interact with clients afterwards 229 00:14:38,010 --> 00:14:41,750 because you are accustomed to that and you know that maybe if 230 00:14:41,760 --> 00:14:46,360 they are pushing you is because they are under pressure like the 231 00:14:46,370 --> 00:14:48,960 first line. So you become less focused on 232 00:14:48,970 --> 00:14:54,300 pointing out problems, you know, raising hands and, and trying to 233 00:14:54,350 --> 00:14:56,980 stop the process. And you are more focused on 234 00:14:56,990 --> 00:15:00,640 helping to solve them in a way that works for for the business. 235 00:15:00,750 --> 00:15:05,500 So that the business, The biggest take away is that a good 236 00:15:05,510 --> 00:15:09,200 legal advice is not just technically sound. 237 00:15:09,250 --> 00:15:12,100 It needs to be usable at the end of the day. 238 00:15:12,150 --> 00:15:15,700 And being inside the company teaches you to think like a 239 00:15:15,710 --> 00:15:20,440 business business partner, not just like a legal specialist. 240 00:15:20,530 --> 00:15:24,260 And that mindset stays with you long after this. 241 00:15:24,610 --> 00:15:27,610 Interested in the the beginning of our conversation. 242 00:15:27,620 --> 00:15:30,510 You had mentioned being originally from Venice and I 243 00:15:30,520 --> 00:15:33,800 also understand that you've been advising startups there as well. 244 00:15:33,880 --> 00:15:36,350 So, so I wanted to hear a little more about, you know, this 245 00:15:36,360 --> 00:15:39,210 experience of startups. What has that experience been 246 00:15:39,220 --> 00:15:42,230 like and and what role do you see lawyers playing in 247 00:15:42,240 --> 00:15:45,490 supporting local Internet entrepreneurship in places like 248 00:15:45,500 --> 00:15:48,850 Venice? Topic that feels very personal 249 00:15:48,860 --> 00:15:52,730 to me and to say because as I mentioned, I'm originally from 250 00:15:52,780 --> 00:15:55,070 Venice. So when I work with startup, 251 00:15:55,080 --> 00:15:58,850 there's there, it's not just another mandate, but there's 252 00:15:58,860 --> 00:16:02,370 also a human and emotional dimension to it. 253 00:16:02,480 --> 00:16:06,570 I would say from a purely legal perspective, it's companies are 254 00:16:06,580 --> 00:16:11,860 often smaller, less structured and at an earlier stage compared 255 00:16:11,870 --> 00:16:15,620 to the typical, you know, private equity backed businesses 256 00:16:15,630 --> 00:16:19,420 or in general companies, enterprises that may be set up 257 00:16:19,430 --> 00:16:23,110 in Milan, which is of course the finance capital of Italy and 258 00:16:23,120 --> 00:16:26,260 let's say. So the work can seem on paper 259 00:16:26,270 --> 00:16:30,170 less complex and but in reality it requires a different kind of 260 00:16:30,180 --> 00:16:32,980 attention. You're not just executing A 261 00:16:32,990 --> 00:16:36,420 transaction there. You're often helping founders 262 00:16:36,430 --> 00:16:39,780 build the legal foundations of their business from scratch, 263 00:16:39,830 --> 00:16:44,080 sometimes even helping them understand what good structure 264 00:16:44,090 --> 00:16:46,240 looks like. What makes it particularly 265 00:16:46,250 --> 00:16:49,690 interesting in Venice is the broader context, of course, as 266 00:16:49,700 --> 00:16:53,350 you know, the city is dealing with the population over the 267 00:16:53,360 --> 00:16:57,050 reason, which means many of these startups are trying in a 268 00:16:57,060 --> 00:17:00,410 way or in another to create something sustainable and 269 00:17:00,420 --> 00:17:04,430 business models that go behind the short term tourism and 270 00:17:04,440 --> 00:17:06,950 actually contribute to the local economy and community. 271 00:17:07,140 --> 00:17:11,910 For example, I had the pleasure of helping some friends, calling 272 00:17:11,920 --> 00:17:15,829 friends now who started the first food delivery service in 273 00:17:15,839 --> 00:17:19,609 Venice because in Venice there aren't a services like global 274 00:17:19,619 --> 00:17:21,930 delivery. Now global is there, but that at 275 00:17:21,940 --> 00:17:25,670 the the time during the COVID pandemic, it was there, there 276 00:17:25,680 --> 00:17:28,349 wasn't any food delivery service. 277 00:17:28,440 --> 00:17:32,610 And they started this venture and it was fun because the 278 00:17:32,620 --> 00:17:35,030 delivery people go around on foot. 279 00:17:35,040 --> 00:17:39,360 It was really great see some young Venetians create something 280 00:17:39,410 --> 00:17:42,160 for the city from scratch, especially as I was saying 281 00:17:42,170 --> 00:17:46,500 during the COVID pandemic, which was a very tough, especially in 282 00:17:46,570 --> 00:17:51,150 the northern part of Italy. So they need to act in a tailor 283 00:17:51,160 --> 00:17:55,720 made way and naturally shapes the way I processed and advice 284 00:17:55,730 --> 00:18:00,120 when I work with initial startups because it becomes more 285 00:18:00,130 --> 00:18:04,200 hands on, more educational away, because of course these people 286 00:18:04,210 --> 00:18:08,820 are less accustomed to business, not to business, but to complex 287 00:18:08,830 --> 00:18:12,200 legal structures. So you have to teach them in a 288 00:18:12,210 --> 00:18:16,320 way and you spend time explaining, simplifying also and 289 00:18:16,330 --> 00:18:21,190 helping founders or general entrepreneurs making decisions 290 00:18:21,200 --> 00:18:25,730 that are not just legally sound, but also they need to be 291 00:18:25,740 --> 00:18:27,750 scalable and resilient over time. 292 00:18:27,760 --> 00:18:32,510 I'll say on a personal level, there's definitely an added 293 00:18:32,520 --> 00:18:36,070 layer of responsibility because you you want these businesses to 294 00:18:36,080 --> 00:18:39,210 succeed, not just for the client, but because they are 295 00:18:39,280 --> 00:18:41,970 part of the future of city you care about. 296 00:18:42,080 --> 00:18:46,130 So even if the structures are simple, simpler and the deal 297 00:18:46,140 --> 00:18:49,330 smaller, the impact can feel much, much bigger. 298 00:18:49,400 --> 00:18:51,930 You just mentioned in the beginning of our conversation 299 00:18:51,940 --> 00:18:54,830 today that you're also participating in the Young 300 00:18:54,840 --> 00:18:57,370 Lawyers Committee of the International Bar Association. 301 00:18:57,420 --> 00:19:00,150 And wouldn't you ask you what what motivated you to get 302 00:19:00,160 --> 00:19:03,030 involved with international legal organizations? 303 00:19:03,120 --> 00:19:06,840 I know you recently were in Toronto for the International 304 00:19:06,850 --> 00:19:10,400 Bar Association annual conference late last year. 305 00:19:10,470 --> 00:19:12,110 I wanted to hear a little bit about your. 306 00:19:12,570 --> 00:19:16,770 Yeah, I've always felt that the practicing law within just one 307 00:19:16,780 --> 00:19:20,940 jurisdiction while deeply valuable of course can sometimes 308 00:19:20,950 --> 00:19:26,120 give you a slightly narrow less in a way and part of this law 309 00:19:26,130 --> 00:19:30,540 firm which is an Italian law firm. 310 00:19:30,550 --> 00:19:33,980 But as I of course an international flavor the legal 311 00:19:33,990 --> 00:19:38,040 world today, the incredibly interconnected cross-border 312 00:19:38,050 --> 00:19:42,760 transactions was mentioning disputes involve multiple legal 313 00:19:42,770 --> 00:19:46,800 systems, regulatory frameworks and increasingly influenced by 314 00:19:46,810 --> 00:19:50,000 international dialogues. So at a certain point I started 315 00:19:50,090 --> 00:19:55,300 asking myself how would I become part of that bigger conversation 316 00:19:55,310 --> 00:20:00,260 I mean the world is much bigger than just Milan and the Italian 317 00:20:00,270 --> 00:20:03,190 domestic deals. So getting involved in we have 318 00:20:03,200 --> 00:20:06,540 international legal organizations was a very natural 319 00:20:06,550 --> 00:20:09,040 answer. It's not just about networking, 320 00:20:09,090 --> 00:20:12,410 although. That's an ugly a big part of it. 321 00:20:12,490 --> 00:20:15,840 It's about the exposure to different ways of thinking. 322 00:20:16,130 --> 00:20:19,970 I mean, you see that table with lawyers from completely 323 00:20:19,980 --> 00:20:23,640 different legal traditions and suddenly concepts you have 324 00:20:23,730 --> 00:20:27,920 always taken for granted are challenged and that's incredibly 325 00:20:28,030 --> 00:20:31,240 stimulating, I would say both intellectually and 326 00:20:31,250 --> 00:20:34,640 professionally. For instance, there's also these 327 00:20:34,690 --> 00:20:37,780 international organizations like the BA. 328 00:20:38,090 --> 00:20:42,200 You can realize that there's a very different attitude also in 329 00:20:42,210 --> 00:20:46,100 their communication style. Like some lawyers, some people 330 00:20:46,110 --> 00:20:49,180 in general come from cultures who are communication is very 331 00:20:49,190 --> 00:20:51,040 dynamic. Others operate in a more 332 00:20:51,050 --> 00:20:55,840 indirect way when one stone and don't text matter a lot more 333 00:20:55,850 --> 00:20:57,950 than the little words being used. 334 00:20:58,040 --> 00:21:01,070 And if you're not aware of that, it's easy to, you know, 335 00:21:01,080 --> 00:21:05,550 misinterpret confidence as aggressiveness or politeness as 336 00:21:05,640 --> 00:21:08,300 lack of clarity. And the idea in particular, the 337 00:21:08,310 --> 00:21:12,170 young lawyers committee list stood out to me because it's a 338 00:21:12,400 --> 00:21:15,450 space where people are still shaping their careers, but 339 00:21:15,460 --> 00:21:18,410 already thinking globally. The age is not. 340 00:21:18,420 --> 00:21:23,210 I mean, you don't need very young people, but you have a a 341 00:21:23,220 --> 00:21:27,750 good mix, I think. And there's a strong sense of 342 00:21:27,760 --> 00:21:31,810 energy and collaboration. It's not year archival, you 343 00:21:31,820 --> 00:21:34,710 know, saying that traditional sense, your ideas actually 344 00:21:34,720 --> 00:21:38,730 matter. You can speak to everybody then 345 00:21:38,740 --> 00:21:43,520 catch up, especially in Toronto was really magical to me. 346 00:21:43,530 --> 00:21:47,390 It was the first time I joined this kind of events. 347 00:21:47,480 --> 00:21:51,560 I mean, I met a lot of people and still in contact with them 348 00:21:51,680 --> 00:21:56,190 being already a chances to work together and really open the 349 00:21:56,240 --> 00:21:59,890 window on the world to me. And on a more personal level, I 350 00:21:59,900 --> 00:22:03,740 was also motivated by the idea of, you know, representing Italy 351 00:22:03,750 --> 00:22:07,750 in a way in in the international context because we have such a 352 00:22:07,760 --> 00:22:11,370 rich legal culture, but sometimes we don't export it as 353 00:22:11,380 --> 00:22:15,450 much as we could. Being in that role means acting 354 00:22:15,460 --> 00:22:19,740 also as a bridge, bringing Italian perspectives abroad, but 355 00:22:19,750 --> 00:22:22,740 also bringing international insights back home. 356 00:22:22,830 --> 00:22:27,220 And that's why I now I'm working and I'm trying to, you know, 357 00:22:27,230 --> 00:22:31,200 organise something here in Milan, maybe at my firm. 358 00:22:31,210 --> 00:22:35,260 So I would be very, very exciting and stimulating. 359 00:22:35,610 --> 00:22:38,870 The end of the day, I think that being goes in the, you know, 360 00:22:38,880 --> 00:22:41,860 international stage. It's about growth, connection 361 00:22:41,870 --> 00:22:45,230 and the impact that you step outside your comfort zone, so 362 00:22:45,470 --> 00:22:50,050 linguistic point of view and you build the relationships that go 363 00:22:50,060 --> 00:22:53,980 far beyond the borders. You start to see your profession 364 00:22:54,370 --> 00:23:00,840 not just as a job limited to your city, region, country, but 365 00:23:00,850 --> 00:23:04,770 as part of a global. Ecosystem posting this podcast, 366 00:23:04,840 --> 00:23:07,430 I started it, you know, interviewing people and asking 367 00:23:07,440 --> 00:23:09,130 how do you become a lawyer in your country? 368 00:23:09,180 --> 00:23:11,430 And then it brought me lots of reflections. 369 00:23:11,440 --> 00:23:15,190 But, but in a way, I've noticed that the commercial world in in 370 00:23:15,200 --> 00:23:18,090 many ways, you had just mentioned how the world is so 371 00:23:18,100 --> 00:23:19,930 much bigger and there's so many perspectives. 372 00:23:20,100 --> 00:23:24,170 And I was pleasantly surprised that so many concepts, so many 373 00:23:24,180 --> 00:23:27,590 ideas are very much converging. Sometimes we want to speak 374 00:23:27,600 --> 00:23:30,810 about, you know, the differences of common law and civil law, but 375 00:23:30,860 --> 00:23:34,130 in the commercial setting, I feel like most, most times 376 00:23:34,340 --> 00:23:36,350 things are a lot closer than we might think. 377 00:23:36,360 --> 00:23:40,300 So that makes me very happy and hopeful for, you know, a future 378 00:23:40,310 --> 00:23:42,230 where there's a lot more understanding. 379 00:23:42,240 --> 00:23:44,290 But why don't you ask you basically 2 questions? 380 00:23:44,300 --> 00:23:48,050 You know, many lawyers are, are curious about getting into a 381 00:23:48,060 --> 00:23:51,190 career in private equity, into corporate transactions. 382 00:23:51,260 --> 00:23:53,550 And I wanted to ask you if you could tell us a little more 383 00:23:53,560 --> 00:23:56,620 about what kind of skill set, what kind of mindset we're 384 00:23:56,630 --> 00:24:00,210 looking for nowadays. And also I wanted to ask you 385 00:24:00,220 --> 00:24:03,610 what kind of advice would you give to someone who is hoping to 386 00:24:03,620 --> 00:24:07,010 build a successful career in the legal world? 387 00:24:07,240 --> 00:24:09,950 Starting from the first one thing, private equity and 388 00:24:09,960 --> 00:24:13,870 corporate transactions are. I mean, the most important thing 389 00:24:13,880 --> 00:24:17,150 is that they need to understand that this kind of transactions 390 00:24:17,160 --> 00:24:20,530 are not just about the law. You are constantly exposed to 391 00:24:20,540 --> 00:24:25,270 different industries, business models and social structures. 392 00:24:25,340 --> 00:24:30,030 The best lawyers think are the ones who want to understand the 393 00:24:30,110 --> 00:24:34,690 our business works, not just how the contract is drafted or how 394 00:24:34,700 --> 00:24:38,610 the the laws apply. And closely linked to that is 395 00:24:38,620 --> 00:24:41,930 commercial awareness. You need to be able to step back 396 00:24:41,940 --> 00:24:45,510 and see the bigger picture while the client is doing the deal, 397 00:24:45,580 --> 00:24:48,590 where the value is and what their real risks are. 398 00:24:48,660 --> 00:24:53,020 Legal advice becomes much more impactful when it's grounded in 399 00:24:53,030 --> 00:24:54,990 that kind of business understanding. 400 00:24:55,000 --> 00:24:58,970 And link to that is the ability, I would say, to manage 401 00:24:58,980 --> 00:25:01,330 complexity without losing clarity. 402 00:25:01,380 --> 00:25:05,810 These transactions can get very technical very quickly, but your 403 00:25:05,820 --> 00:25:10,230 role is often to simplify, I think understand it. 404 00:25:10,340 --> 00:25:14,350 And you have to be able to identify what mothers and 405 00:25:14,360 --> 00:25:17,510 communicated in a way that clients can act on. 406 00:25:17,640 --> 00:25:21,170 So clear thinking and clear communication go a long way. 407 00:25:21,180 --> 00:25:25,030 And then I'd also, I like, I have to say that physical 408 00:25:25,040 --> 00:25:29,630 strength because this can be intense pipeline lines, shifting 409 00:25:29,640 --> 00:25:32,110 priorities relate 9 negotiations. 410 00:25:32,540 --> 00:25:37,050 Things change quickly and you have to stay focused, pragmatic 411 00:25:37,180 --> 00:25:39,450 to adapt. And while you are under 412 00:25:39,460 --> 00:25:42,150 pressure. And as my boss always says, the 413 00:25:42,160 --> 00:25:44,990 job is above all a physical challenge. 414 00:25:45,040 --> 00:25:48,910 So there's there's the young lawyers need to be be aware. 415 00:25:49,020 --> 00:25:52,450 Finally, I think there's a mindset piece around the 416 00:25:52,460 --> 00:25:56,470 ownership and collaboration. Like even as a junior lawyer, 417 00:25:56,540 --> 00:26:00,480 being proactive, anticipating issues, the responsibility for 418 00:26:00,490 --> 00:26:05,380 your work on work and at the same time being a team player is 419 00:26:05,450 --> 00:26:09,620 incredibly valuable. Working on M and A deals is our 420 00:26:09,630 --> 00:26:13,260 teams at the end of the day, and the best outcomes come from 421 00:26:13,270 --> 00:26:16,580 people who are both reliable and easy to work with. 422 00:26:16,670 --> 00:26:21,840 So overall, yeah, it's a mix of technical skills, businesses, 423 00:26:21,890 --> 00:26:25,580 instinct and attitude and good personal attitude. 424 00:26:25,930 --> 00:26:29,740 Is is not a reasonable in working this. 425 00:26:29,930 --> 00:26:34,400 And as far as advices are concerned, I think I would have 426 00:26:34,410 --> 00:26:39,580 a lot of advice but the first I'd say stay curious, keep 427 00:26:39,590 --> 00:26:42,280 learning. Corporate law isn't just about 428 00:26:42,340 --> 00:26:46,610 regulations and strict clauses multiple times. 429 00:26:46,680 --> 00:26:49,890 It's about understanding different legal systems, 430 00:26:49,900 --> 00:26:52,530 business practices and cultures also. 431 00:26:52,580 --> 00:26:56,570 And the more you expose yourself to different perspectives, the 432 00:26:56,580 --> 00:27:00,070 better you will be able to navigate complex cross-border 433 00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:02,310 situation. For instance, Stockholm 434 00:27:02,720 --> 00:27:07,450 commercial mindset lions are about solutions that work in 435 00:27:07,460 --> 00:27:09,770 practice. And maybe I'm saying this also 436 00:27:09,780 --> 00:27:13,330 because I've been shaped by my second experience. 437 00:27:13,380 --> 00:27:15,750 But they don't want just the theory. 438 00:27:15,980 --> 00:27:19,370 You have to be able to to to understand and then to 439 00:27:19,380 --> 00:27:23,490 communicate how the deal the transaction fits into their 440 00:27:23,500 --> 00:27:25,920 business strategy. Mean legal knowledge is 441 00:27:25,930 --> 00:27:29,920 essential, but pairing it with business awareness makes you 442 00:27:29,930 --> 00:27:31,720 truly valuable. Bird. 443 00:27:31,870 --> 00:27:36,300 I would say that young lawyers, especially at the beginning of 444 00:27:36,310 --> 00:27:40,740 their careers should focus on communication and relationships 445 00:27:40,810 --> 00:27:46,640 because an international career, often working across time zones, 446 00:27:46,650 --> 00:27:51,440 cultures, languages, clear and culturally aware communication 447 00:27:51,450 --> 00:27:54,180 is just as important as the technical expertise. 448 00:27:54,230 --> 00:27:58,100 Finally, I would say embrace adaptability. 449 00:27:58,190 --> 00:28:02,200 This kind of disk can be unpredictable, Rotary changes 450 00:28:02,390 --> 00:28:06,720 shift unexpected challenges. They will test you for sure. 451 00:28:06,790 --> 00:28:11,520 So it's important to be able to stay calm, think creatively and 452 00:28:11,530 --> 00:28:15,540 keep the clients goals in focus. And it's this is very, very 453 00:28:15,550 --> 00:28:18,710 critical turn down. My advice is be curious and 454 00:28:18,720 --> 00:28:22,790 commercially communicate well, they adaptable and if the young 455 00:28:22,800 --> 00:28:28,410 lawyers are able to combine those qualities, of course some 456 00:28:28,420 --> 00:28:32,530 legal fundamental saying for sure will be able to build a 457 00:28:32,700 --> 00:28:36,130 career that's not just successful but also deeply 458 00:28:36,140 --> 00:28:38,800 rewarding. Amazing, I love how this this 459 00:28:38,810 --> 00:28:41,450 advice could really apply in any part of the world. 460 00:28:41,460 --> 00:28:45,570 So I thank you for for being so, so generous in sharing it and I 461 00:28:45,580 --> 00:28:48,770 appreciate you making the time should be in the podcast today. 462 00:28:48,840 --> 00:28:51,410 Thank you so much. Appreciate you all tuning in 463 00:28:51,500 --> 00:28:53,090 take. Thank you.