1 00:00:12,870 --> 00:00:14,840 Welcome to Studying Law Around the World. 2 00:00:15,010 --> 00:00:17,860 I'm Claudio Claus. In each episode, I talk with 3 00:00:17,870 --> 00:00:20,840 lawyers, law students, and professors from different parts 4 00:00:20,850 --> 00:00:24,740 of the world to talk about legal education, careers, and what the 5 00:00:24,750 --> 00:00:26,420 profession looks like in real life. 6 00:00:26,430 --> 00:00:29,470 We talk about the hard parts, the surprises, and the decisions 7 00:00:29,480 --> 00:00:32,259 that shaped their paths. Whether you're planning to study 8 00:00:32,270 --> 00:00:35,520 abroad, thinking about working in another legal system, or just 9 00:00:35,530 --> 00:00:39,640 curious about how law works around the world, this podcast 10 00:00:39,650 --> 00:00:44,590 is for you. Today I'll be interviewing 11 00:00:44,660 --> 00:00:48,250 Alanis Ortiz Espinoza. Thank you so much for making the 12 00:00:48,260 --> 00:00:50,490 time to come to the podcast, Alaniz. 13 00:00:50,560 --> 00:00:53,810 I'm very excited to hear more about your experience as a 14 00:00:53,820 --> 00:00:57,670 lawyer, as an in house counsel and also a board member to both 15 00:00:57,680 --> 00:01:00,810 the Canadian Hispanic Bar Association and also Bridgeway 16 00:01:00,820 --> 00:01:02,090 Family Centre. Thank you for. 17 00:01:02,100 --> 00:01:03,590 Coming. Thank you for inviting me. 18 00:01:03,600 --> 00:01:05,930 I'm very honored. Excited to be on this podcast, 19 00:01:05,940 --> 00:01:08,330 Claudio. I really appreciate it and to 20 00:01:08,340 --> 00:01:10,970 start, I'd love for you to introduce yourself and share a 21 00:01:10,980 --> 00:01:14,250 little bit about your story. You know your journey from law 22 00:01:14,260 --> 00:01:17,750 studies to becoming a lawyer and also in house counseling Canada. 23 00:01:19,190 --> 00:01:23,610 For me, as you said, my name is Alanis and I actually always 24 00:01:23,620 --> 00:01:26,480 dreamed of becoming a lawyer. I think the dream began when I 25 00:01:26,490 --> 00:01:28,960 was 6 and I watched Legally Blonde. 26 00:01:29,080 --> 00:01:36,510 I just got so inspired by this, you know, fanista woman who 27 00:01:36,520 --> 00:01:40,230 wanted to go to law school and I thought that could be me. 28 00:01:40,280 --> 00:01:42,100 So definitely cinema inspired me. 29 00:01:42,160 --> 00:01:46,430 But it also helps that I loved reading and love the social 30 00:01:46,440 --> 00:01:48,670 sciences. So I knew throughout high school 31 00:01:48,680 --> 00:01:51,880 I took all the courses. And then once it came to the the 32 00:01:51,890 --> 00:01:54,930 time to choose my school, I had to choose whether, you know, I'm 33 00:01:54,940 --> 00:01:57,670 staying here in Canada or I'm going abroad. 34 00:01:57,740 --> 00:02:00,690 And so I chose to go through the UK route. 35 00:02:00,910 --> 00:02:04,740 And that was really my my path. I think for the most part I was 36 00:02:04,750 --> 00:02:07,930 straightforward, although there were times where I doubted that 37 00:02:07,940 --> 00:02:12,330 I'd ever get there and doubted that I could get through those 38 00:02:12,340 --> 00:02:14,950 many years of schooling. But one step at a time. 39 00:02:14,960 --> 00:02:17,290 Yeah, that eventually got. Got here. 40 00:02:18,650 --> 00:02:21,310 I said it to you to hear even more as we go through today's 41 00:02:21,320 --> 00:02:23,530 episode. But I know you've built this 42 00:02:23,540 --> 00:02:26,490 practice, you know, and you have good experience in both the 43 00:02:26,500 --> 00:02:29,370 private practice and in-house rows as well. 44 00:02:29,440 --> 00:02:31,850 So I'm curious to hear from you. You know, what are some of the 45 00:02:31,860 --> 00:02:35,150 biggest differences that you've noticed on all the way from how 46 00:02:35,160 --> 00:02:38,770 lawyers practice on how decisions are made and also 47 00:02:38,780 --> 00:02:41,070 delivered in both of those environments? 48 00:02:41,560 --> 00:02:45,270 So I actually began working for a company while I was in law 49 00:02:45,280 --> 00:02:47,490 school. So although I wasn't practicing, 50 00:02:47,500 --> 00:02:49,330 I was on the in the legal department. 51 00:02:49,400 --> 00:02:53,780 And so I saw the way they functioned and I grew to really 52 00:02:53,840 --> 00:02:56,330 grow a love for in-house counsel and housework. 53 00:02:56,380 --> 00:02:59,590 I just thought it was so unique that they have one client, which 54 00:02:59,600 --> 00:03:02,340 is the, the company and you build such a relationship with 55 00:03:02,350 --> 00:03:05,320 this they not only in a legal sense, but in a business sense, 56 00:03:05,330 --> 00:03:07,950 the best thing for the company long term. 57 00:03:08,030 --> 00:03:11,840 And so I really like that, that relationship between me and my 58 00:03:11,850 --> 00:03:16,500 client, me and, and the company. And so I worked there for a 59 00:03:16,510 --> 00:03:19,760 couple of years and then when it came time to articling, I 60 00:03:19,770 --> 00:03:23,180 thought, you know, I started my career technically in house and 61 00:03:23,190 --> 00:03:25,760 I really wanted that private practice experience. 62 00:03:25,810 --> 00:03:30,710 So I did do my articling at a boutique law firm and I saw very 63 00:03:30,720 --> 00:03:33,130 different environment. It's a completely different 64 00:03:33,140 --> 00:03:36,450 setup and a private practice. You have many clients. 65 00:03:36,500 --> 00:03:39,830 You're, you know, doing the interviews intake, doing the 66 00:03:39,840 --> 00:03:43,230 files, closing the files and then having more clients come 67 00:03:43,240 --> 00:03:45,170 in. So I think just fundamentally 68 00:03:45,180 --> 00:03:48,350 it's very different working in the in house and the prior 69 00:03:48,360 --> 00:03:50,370 practice. And eventually I did come back 70 00:03:50,380 --> 00:03:53,790 to in house, But I'm really glad that I got both experiences 71 00:03:53,800 --> 00:03:57,290 because I think they're both so different that I did learn that 72 00:03:57,300 --> 00:04:00,490 I'm someone that loves that long term vision. 73 00:04:00,580 --> 00:04:03,710 And so I think that that's why in house really works for me 74 00:04:03,770 --> 00:04:09,150 because I just love working with the company in all areas and 75 00:04:09,200 --> 00:04:11,970 just love helping them in any way that I can and, and getting 76 00:04:11,980 --> 00:04:15,820 to give them all of my energy. So I I really like, I really 77 00:04:15,830 --> 00:04:17,420 love and in-house. Fantastic. 78 00:04:17,430 --> 00:04:21,010 No, that's incredible. And you served on on boards and 79 00:04:21,019 --> 00:04:24,010 you currently serve on boards of different not-for-profit 80 00:04:24,020 --> 00:04:27,220 organizations associations. So I'm curious, you hear, you 81 00:04:27,230 --> 00:04:30,020 know, a little bit about, you know, the, the community sense 82 00:04:30,030 --> 00:04:33,000 and how that plays a role in your life and even, you know, 83 00:04:33,010 --> 00:04:37,140 what drew you to leadership to governance roles alongside with 84 00:04:37,150 --> 00:04:40,780 your legal career? I became interested in boards 85 00:04:40,790 --> 00:04:44,950 while I was in my undergrad and it was, it's quite peculiar 86 00:04:44,960 --> 00:04:48,700 because all the people that I knew on boards were like over 87 00:04:48,710 --> 00:04:51,940 50, you know, at the end of their careers, they had a lot of 88 00:04:52,010 --> 00:04:55,500 extra time to volunteer. But I've always been an avid 89 00:04:55,510 --> 00:04:57,380 like person that loves volunteering. 90 00:04:57,840 --> 00:05:01,030 And I thought, well, I don't think I necessarily need to be 91 00:05:01,040 --> 00:05:03,950 over 50 to join a board. I mean, of course, they all have 92 00:05:03,960 --> 00:05:05,710 so much experience and so much wisdom. 93 00:05:05,720 --> 00:05:09,200 But I think that board should also reflect our communities. 94 00:05:09,210 --> 00:05:12,370 And our communities are are, you know, many people that many 95 00:05:12,380 --> 00:05:14,870 ages. So I thought that my, my youth, 96 00:05:14,920 --> 00:05:17,810 my young voice could, you know, serve the community. 97 00:05:17,820 --> 00:05:21,150 So I, I joined my first board in 2017. 98 00:05:21,160 --> 00:05:24,690 I believe it was a legal clinic in the Peel Region. 99 00:05:24,700 --> 00:05:27,960 And because it was my first board role, I learned a lot 100 00:05:28,160 --> 00:05:31,630 about not for profits, the background of all these not for 101 00:05:31,640 --> 00:05:36,070 profits, the finance governance. And because, you know, I study 102 00:05:36,080 --> 00:05:39,380 political science as my undergrad, I also grew to really 103 00:05:39,390 --> 00:05:42,580 enjoy governance work, been supporting these not for profits 104 00:05:42,710 --> 00:05:45,600 that benefit our communities. So that was 2017. 105 00:05:45,610 --> 00:05:49,180 And then over time, I've thought, well, once my term 106 00:05:49,190 --> 00:05:52,520 ends, I can find another board role and I found the Canadian 107 00:05:52,530 --> 00:05:55,860 Hispanic Bar Association while I was studying law in England. 108 00:05:55,870 --> 00:05:59,880 I was the only Latin American that I knew of, not only in the 109 00:05:59,890 --> 00:06:03,960 cohort in my year and almost the whole university. 110 00:06:03,970 --> 00:06:07,000 A lot of people hadn't met a Latin American before they met 111 00:06:07,010 --> 00:06:09,560 me. So although it's very exciting 112 00:06:09,570 --> 00:06:12,060 to be the first, you know, Latina that people meet it, it 113 00:06:12,070 --> 00:06:15,340 was very isolating. I just didn't see myself 114 00:06:15,350 --> 00:06:16,840 reflected. And I think that's really 115 00:06:16,850 --> 00:06:20,020 important for people to see themselves in their profession 116 00:06:20,030 --> 00:06:22,260 and the places that they're studying or working in. 117 00:06:22,270 --> 00:06:25,940 So I, that's when I branched out and I and I thought, well, there 118 00:06:25,950 --> 00:06:30,740 must be a community of Hispanic lawyers in Canada or somewhere. 119 00:06:30,800 --> 00:06:35,770 And so quickly after beginning my search, I found the CHPA. 120 00:06:35,780 --> 00:06:40,830 I joined as a student member of the Kima Mentee and eventually 121 00:06:40,840 --> 00:06:44,750 applied to be on the board. That was in 2021. 122 00:06:44,900 --> 00:06:48,170 This year, it's five years on the board and very exciting, 123 00:06:48,180 --> 00:06:52,010 very exciting to see even from when I joined the board to now, 124 00:06:52,020 --> 00:06:56,010 how much they've grown, how how they've grown in terms of their 125 00:06:56,020 --> 00:06:58,710 events, the scale events, their gala that they had last year, 126 00:06:58,720 --> 00:07:01,230 but also across Canada, I see their presence growing. 127 00:07:01,240 --> 00:07:03,410 It's really incredible to see our numbers growing, our 128 00:07:03,420 --> 00:07:06,950 presence getting stronger than yeah, just overall getting back 129 00:07:06,960 --> 00:07:09,200 to boards. They found them to really 130 00:07:10,100 --> 00:07:14,610 illuminate my my career and it they they come something I'm 131 00:07:14,620 --> 00:07:16,920 very passionate about and hope to continue being part of. 132 00:07:16,930 --> 00:07:19,500 That's amazing. So considering the these points, 133 00:07:19,510 --> 00:07:22,650 that community plays such a big role for you seems to be really 134 00:07:22,700 --> 00:07:24,350 a part of your professional identity. 135 00:07:24,360 --> 00:07:27,720 And if you know, if you can drill down a little bit more on 136 00:07:27,730 --> 00:07:30,710 that, how has being part of the Canadian Hispanic Bar 137 00:07:30,720 --> 00:07:35,270 Association influenced your growth as a lawyer, as a leader, 138 00:07:35,480 --> 00:07:37,750 as really a member of the legal community? 139 00:07:39,180 --> 00:07:42,640 Russian and it brings a lot of memories of my time when I was 140 00:07:42,650 --> 00:07:44,640 starting law school. As I mentioned, it was a 141 00:07:44,650 --> 00:07:48,460 childhood dream and something that I was very passionate 142 00:07:48,470 --> 00:07:50,780 about. But I think a common thing that 143 00:07:50,790 --> 00:07:53,200 happens when we're very passionate and excited about 144 00:07:53,210 --> 00:07:55,400 something, we're also scared of it. 145 00:07:55,530 --> 00:07:59,080 So although I wanted to be a lawyer, I also equally had this 146 00:07:59,090 --> 00:08:01,540 immense fear that would overtake me. 147 00:08:01,550 --> 00:08:04,040 And even when I got into law school and while I was in law 148 00:08:04,050 --> 00:08:08,620 school, I often doubted if I could ever be a good lawyer, at 149 00:08:08,630 --> 00:08:10,780 least be the kind of lawyer that I wanted to be. 150 00:08:10,850 --> 00:08:13,640 And that really affected me. I think I I struggled a little 151 00:08:13,650 --> 00:08:16,960 bit at the beginning, but with public speaking, but I knew that 152 00:08:16,970 --> 00:08:20,000 if I was going to go on this journey of becoming a lawyer, I 153 00:08:20,010 --> 00:08:24,090 really had to push against those fears and try my best. 154 00:08:24,140 --> 00:08:25,850 Yeah. I think public speaking was a 155 00:08:25,860 --> 00:08:28,330 big part of my growth throughout law school. 156 00:08:28,340 --> 00:08:33,100 And so I actually applied when I applied to join the board of the 157 00:08:33,110 --> 00:08:37,789 CHPA, it was more of a, a test of can I can I, can I do this 158 00:08:37,799 --> 00:08:40,190 interview? But I didn't think I'd actually 159 00:08:40,280 --> 00:08:42,909 get elected. So it was really just practice 160 00:08:42,960 --> 00:08:46,470 to practice my public speaking That, that, that application and 161 00:08:46,480 --> 00:08:49,670 that first interview was really to just prove to myself that I 162 00:08:49,680 --> 00:08:52,470 can speak in front of others and be eloquent. 163 00:08:52,750 --> 00:08:54,730 And that was all. That was my, that was all I 164 00:08:54,740 --> 00:08:57,090 wanted. But I somehow ended up on the 165 00:08:57,100 --> 00:08:59,370 board and there were 10 people running that year. 166 00:08:59,410 --> 00:09:02,020 I was the only students. They were all lawyers. 167 00:09:02,030 --> 00:09:04,830 I was very overwhelmed. But I'm very grateful because 168 00:09:04,840 --> 00:09:08,170 now I'm looking at who I was when I was applying to. 169 00:09:08,180 --> 00:09:11,000 Now I've grown so much in terms of my public speaking. 170 00:09:11,010 --> 00:09:14,020 I feel a lot more comfortable. And yeah, that the board has 171 00:09:14,030 --> 00:09:17,460 really, really been such an important community to me. 172 00:09:17,470 --> 00:09:21,700 And beyond even career, you know, these are people that I 173 00:09:22,370 --> 00:09:25,580 really enjoy being around. They're my friends and just an 174 00:09:25,590 --> 00:09:30,100 incredible group of people that I get to learn from, match up 175 00:09:30,110 --> 00:09:33,280 with, learn about their careers, their trajectories. 176 00:09:33,290 --> 00:09:37,760 So the CHP has been fundamental to my growth and I'm very 177 00:09:37,770 --> 00:09:40,000 grateful. And I think, I hope everyone can 178 00:09:40,010 --> 00:09:43,370 find their their similar community. 179 00:09:43,900 --> 00:09:45,760 Well, thank you so much for for sharing that. 180 00:09:45,770 --> 00:09:49,260 It's so incredible that you found that community and just 181 00:09:49,270 --> 00:09:53,780 like sad and going back to hearing a little more about your 182 00:09:53,790 --> 00:09:56,840 practice as well in law. I understand that you have 183 00:09:56,850 --> 00:10:00,880 worked across business law, real estate, states, brother 184 00:10:00,890 --> 00:10:03,640 corporate matters. So I'm curious here, you know, 185 00:10:03,650 --> 00:10:06,800 both in your role as in house counsel and in your private 186 00:10:06,810 --> 00:10:10,340 practice experience as well, what areas of law have shaped 187 00:10:10,350 --> 00:10:12,900 you the most, do you think and and why? 188 00:10:14,430 --> 00:10:18,000 Table area and I don't know if it's area, but in terms of law 189 00:10:18,010 --> 00:10:21,480 school subjects, what helped me the most was actually contract 190 00:10:21,490 --> 00:10:23,370 law. I've used contract everything 191 00:10:23,380 --> 00:10:25,440 that I've learned in that course in all areas. 192 00:10:25,450 --> 00:10:29,100 I think reviewing contracts, reading contracts is absolutely 193 00:10:29,110 --> 00:10:33,140 important in all areas and also being able be it being a good 194 00:10:33,150 --> 00:10:36,750 researcher, I think as well as really covered all the areas 195 00:10:36,760 --> 00:10:39,960 that I've worked in. But in terms of the practice 196 00:10:39,970 --> 00:10:43,660 areas, I think corporate laws really influenced me as well 197 00:10:43,670 --> 00:10:47,680 because in the real estate transactions in the estates 198 00:10:47,690 --> 00:10:51,940 cases in almost all the other areas, I think corporate is also 199 00:10:51,990 --> 00:10:54,180 very much present in those areas. 200 00:10:54,190 --> 00:10:57,140 So yeah, I think they're all very interconnected, but 201 00:10:57,150 --> 00:11:01,690 definitely contract laws helped me in in every job that I've. 202 00:11:01,700 --> 00:11:03,330 Worked on that makes so much sense. 203 00:11:03,340 --> 00:11:05,990 It's it's incredible. Just in another podcast I 204 00:11:06,000 --> 00:11:09,490 recorded earlier today we were just talking about how more and 205 00:11:09,500 --> 00:11:12,850 more in different parts of the world just imagining like 206 00:11:12,920 --> 00:11:16,880 overall commercial law, how how aligned it is more and more 207 00:11:17,320 --> 00:11:19,310 doesn't matter where you go. It doesn't matter. 208 00:11:19,320 --> 00:11:23,180 You know who do you see riding about it feels like it's really 209 00:11:23,240 --> 00:11:27,380 one of those areas of law that really got kind of a worldwide 210 00:11:27,390 --> 00:11:30,590 kind of coverage or or at least you know the same principles and 211 00:11:30,600 --> 00:11:33,470 all of that. Recently spoke with somebody who 212 00:11:33,480 --> 00:11:36,350 works with mining law as well and they were talking about how 213 00:11:36,420 --> 00:11:40,410 in this same idea right of going with the same legal principles 214 00:11:40,420 --> 00:11:44,250 going with the overall ideas of what practicing law looks like. 215 00:11:44,310 --> 00:11:48,080 That definitely made sense even though there were of course 216 00:11:48,090 --> 00:11:51,900 cultural differences legal differences, but still overall a 217 00:11:51,910 --> 00:11:54,260 contract is a contract everywhere. 218 00:11:54,510 --> 00:11:57,190 How people own up to it afterwards might changing 219 00:11:57,200 --> 00:12:00,340 different parts of the world. But it really makes a difference 220 00:12:00,350 --> 00:12:05,280 right you have that that clearly written piece of paper that will 221 00:12:05,290 --> 00:12:09,100 make it known to all parties what they're supposed to do how 222 00:12:09,110 --> 00:12:11,740 that should work. So I love that you brought up 223 00:12:11,750 --> 00:12:15,380 contract as one of your top on that sense and since you 224 00:12:15,390 --> 00:12:18,710 mentioned you know law school. The and, and all of that, if 225 00:12:18,720 --> 00:12:21,580 you're looking back in your career as an early professional, 226 00:12:21,590 --> 00:12:24,430 as a law student, are there a few moments that you would say 227 00:12:24,440 --> 00:12:28,910 were hardest transitions and, and if so, how you moved through 228 00:12:28,920 --> 00:12:30,790 then? But also, is there anything that 229 00:12:30,800 --> 00:12:33,180 you'd say? You know, this is one of the 230 00:12:33,190 --> 00:12:37,520 moments that I'm most proud. Of 100%, I definitely had very 231 00:12:37,530 --> 00:12:40,430 difficult moments and some more than others. 232 00:12:40,500 --> 00:12:44,910 But I would say that that licensing transition, when you 233 00:12:44,920 --> 00:12:48,710 finished law school and you're doing all the licensing 234 00:12:48,720 --> 00:12:52,790 preparations to become licensed, It was very difficult for me 235 00:12:52,800 --> 00:12:56,530 because when you graduate, when you're in law school, you have a 236 00:12:56,540 --> 00:13:01,010 whole university supporting you. You have, you know, the guidance 237 00:13:01,020 --> 00:13:03,810 counselors, the faculty, if you have questions, you always have 238 00:13:03,820 --> 00:13:05,490 somewhere to go to, a number to call. 239 00:13:05,560 --> 00:13:09,460 And I found like that day that I graduated, I was like, OK, well, 240 00:13:09,470 --> 00:13:12,560 from now on, I'm depending on myself to do all the research 241 00:13:12,570 --> 00:13:15,050 and find all the answers. And, you know, there's just 242 00:13:15,060 --> 00:13:18,420 several routes to getting licensed, one being the LM. 243 00:13:18,430 --> 00:13:21,470 But I did choose to continue working full time while I was 244 00:13:21,480 --> 00:13:24,820 getting license. So I sought to do the NCA exams 245 00:13:24,970 --> 00:13:27,440 by myself, like self study. And I think that's why it was so 246 00:13:27,450 --> 00:13:31,400 hard because I, you know, whenever I had a question or I 247 00:13:31,410 --> 00:13:34,520 wasn't sure about, you know, how, how many exams to take at a 248 00:13:34,530 --> 00:13:37,360 time, how much can I manage? I had to really figure that all 249 00:13:37,370 --> 00:13:39,800 out by myself. And I did lose contact with a 250 00:13:39,810 --> 00:13:42,120 lot of the law graduates that I studied with. 251 00:13:42,190 --> 00:13:45,110 So I didn't have that, you know, student group to lean on either. 252 00:13:45,120 --> 00:13:48,280 And so I think that time was very difficult. 253 00:13:48,470 --> 00:13:52,510 And it's also this kind of weird limbo that no one talks about. 254 00:13:52,520 --> 00:13:54,710 I mean, you're a law graduate, but you're not a lawyer. 255 00:13:54,720 --> 00:13:59,090 And So what are you and what kinds of jobs can I apply for? 256 00:13:59,100 --> 00:14:03,530 And, and it's a, it's a really, you know, interesting place to 257 00:14:03,540 --> 00:14:06,590 be in for for years. It's not just a few months, it's 258 00:14:06,600 --> 00:14:09,660 years at a time that was really difficult to navigate. 259 00:14:09,670 --> 00:14:14,030 But as you mentioned, I think a lot of the, you know, most 260 00:14:14,040 --> 00:14:17,280 difficult moments in our lives make us that much stronger. 261 00:14:17,290 --> 00:14:19,950 So I'm very proud of getting through those moments and for 262 00:14:19,960 --> 00:14:22,070 the people that supported me, including the HBA. 263 00:14:22,080 --> 00:14:27,050 But yes, I think there are those moments are not to be feared for 264 00:14:27,060 --> 00:14:29,750 sure, but they they do come. No, absolutely. 265 00:14:29,760 --> 00:14:31,970 I love that. I appreciate you bringing that 266 00:14:31,980 --> 00:14:34,670 up because it can be, it can be a little frustrating, right? 267 00:14:35,020 --> 00:14:38,910 The idea that it's even impacts of like your identity, how you 268 00:14:38,920 --> 00:14:40,970 present yourself to the world, right because. 269 00:14:41,380 --> 00:14:44,280 The one. Of misrepresenting anyway, so it 270 00:14:44,290 --> 00:14:45,850 definitely is an interesting lingo. 271 00:14:45,860 --> 00:14:47,310 I I appreciate you bringing that up. 272 00:14:47,320 --> 00:14:49,690 I don't think I heard somebody using that word, but it just 273 00:14:49,700 --> 00:14:53,350 describes exactly what it. Is it almost even avoid like a 274 00:14:53,360 --> 00:14:56,230 lot of public settings because especially with family, they 275 00:14:56,240 --> 00:14:58,210 would all be asking like, so you're a lawyer. 276 00:14:58,220 --> 00:15:00,510 Can you help me with this? No, I'm not a lawyer yet. 277 00:15:00,520 --> 00:15:02,130 But but you graduated law school. 278 00:15:02,140 --> 00:15:05,040 Yes, but there's, you know, this licensing process. 279 00:15:05,050 --> 00:15:08,750 I didn't pass the bar yet. So it's just such a big thing 280 00:15:08,760 --> 00:15:10,940 and not a lot of people understand unless you're going 281 00:15:11,010 --> 00:15:13,520 through it right. And so that's why it's very hard 282 00:15:13,530 --> 00:15:15,970 to navigate as someone doing it for the first time. 283 00:15:15,980 --> 00:15:18,230 And maybe you don't know many people who've gone through. 284 00:15:18,240 --> 00:15:23,720 It would even say that probably what like, you know, 3-4 years 285 00:15:23,730 --> 00:15:27,700 ago that was chewy even kind of harder to figure it out, right? 286 00:15:27,710 --> 00:15:30,490 Like a lot. We have much more on the 287 00:15:30,500 --> 00:15:32,440 Internet. We have, you know, people who 288 00:15:32,450 --> 00:15:36,530 are sharing information on their blogs, on LinkedIn, YouTube, 289 00:15:36,540 --> 00:15:38,200 whatever. But those are all kind of very 290 00:15:38,210 --> 00:15:39,880 new. We haven't had that for a long 291 00:15:39,890 --> 00:15:40,680 time. Right. 292 00:15:41,040 --> 00:15:43,940 I mean, your podcast didn't exist back when I was in law 293 00:15:43,950 --> 00:15:46,050 school. We didn't have touch PT. 294 00:15:46,060 --> 00:15:47,660 That would have really helped me. 295 00:15:47,730 --> 00:15:50,180 But I was, you know, searching through LinkedIn, trying to get 296 00:15:50,190 --> 00:15:51,960 coffee chats with people going on Reddit. 297 00:15:51,970 --> 00:15:54,780 But yeah, I think there's so much information now. 298 00:15:54,790 --> 00:15:57,400 And with every day that passes, there's more on the Internet, 299 00:15:57,410 --> 00:15:59,360 which is amazing. But there is definitely that 300 00:15:59,370 --> 00:16:01,300 period. It was before COVID where it was 301 00:16:01,370 --> 00:16:03,970 a lot harder to find this information. 302 00:16:04,640 --> 00:16:08,850 No, that's that's something that we like have to to acknowledge 303 00:16:08,860 --> 00:16:11,130 for sure that that was a an interesting moment. 304 00:16:11,140 --> 00:16:13,610 You know, everybody stuck in their homes happily. 305 00:16:13,620 --> 00:16:16,030 A lot of people decided, you know, I'll start content 306 00:16:16,040 --> 00:16:18,810 creating and I think that that generated a lot of good stuff 307 00:16:18,820 --> 00:16:22,410 that is this true out there. You know, either people continue 308 00:16:22,420 --> 00:16:24,210 doing what they they started back then. 309 00:16:24,270 --> 00:16:27,330 This podcast is a matter of fact, one of those byproducts. 310 00:16:27,340 --> 00:16:29,730 So I'm very proud and grateful of that. 311 00:16:30,140 --> 00:16:33,730 Not so great of a moment. We were living as a as a world 312 00:16:33,740 --> 00:16:36,640 in society. I I'd like to think that we just 313 00:16:36,650 --> 00:16:38,570 try to make the most out of it, right? 314 00:16:40,040 --> 00:16:41,920 Dude, it's your wrap up today's episode. 315 00:16:41,930 --> 00:16:45,180 I wanted to ask you, what advice would you give to young lawyers 316 00:16:45,190 --> 00:16:48,780 or early career professionals for trying to build a meaningful 317 00:16:48,790 --> 00:16:52,810 career, trying to find their community finds their C HVAC 318 00:16:52,890 --> 00:16:56,650 while also, you know, states staying connected to to their 319 00:16:56,660 --> 00:16:59,840 identity, staying connected to leadership opportunities. 320 00:16:59,850 --> 00:17:01,790 More and more. We see that as you go through 321 00:17:01,800 --> 00:17:03,940 your career, there's different expectations, right? 322 00:17:03,950 --> 00:17:06,500 And, and in the beginning of your career, maybe there's 323 00:17:06,510 --> 00:17:10,800 different priorities regarding to business development, to, you 324 00:17:10,810 --> 00:17:14,150 know, visibility, all of that. So I wanted to hear, you know, 325 00:17:14,160 --> 00:17:17,440 what are some of your ideas on that early career professionals 326 00:17:17,670 --> 00:17:20,849 lost students who are listening and tuning into today's episode. 327 00:17:20,890 --> 00:17:23,430 What are some things that that you would recommend should be 328 00:17:23,440 --> 00:17:24,890 done? So a few of the things I love to 329 00:17:24,900 --> 00:17:27,220 share with students when they ask me this questions. 330 00:17:27,230 --> 00:17:34,630 One being timelines are different for everyone and it's 331 00:17:34,640 --> 00:17:37,010 really not fair to compare our timeline. 332 00:17:37,020 --> 00:17:41,200 For example, for me, I wanted to work full time after graduating. 333 00:17:41,210 --> 00:17:43,810 Maybe someone else doesn't want to or need to work full time 334 00:17:43,820 --> 00:17:45,770 after graduating. We're going to be studying at 335 00:17:45,780 --> 00:17:47,970 different paces. Some people have families, some 336 00:17:47,980 --> 00:17:49,810 people are married. We all have different 337 00:17:49,820 --> 00:17:52,270 responsibilities. We have completely different 338 00:17:52,280 --> 00:17:53,870 paths. And I think for a lot of us, 339 00:17:53,990 --> 00:17:56,690 having LinkedIn is such a benefit, but it can also be a 340 00:17:56,700 --> 00:17:59,100 place where we compare ourselves and compare our timelines. 341 00:17:59,110 --> 00:18:01,550 Well, they're getting called and I haven't, I haven't, they 342 00:18:01,560 --> 00:18:03,650 haven't. You know, we, we often do that. 343 00:18:03,660 --> 00:18:06,790 Yeah, I think a lot of lawyers are high achievers, so it's 344 00:18:06,800 --> 00:18:09,610 understandable. But I also think that our 345 00:18:09,620 --> 00:18:13,750 timelines are so are just so attached to us and, and it's not 346 00:18:13,760 --> 00:18:16,490 fair to, to compare. And so really just staying on 347 00:18:16,500 --> 00:18:21,710 your timeline and know that it's OK if things are not happening 348 00:18:21,720 --> 00:18:26,690 as fast as you want them to. And it's OK to maybe elongate 349 00:18:26,700 --> 00:18:29,350 your licensing process. And I'm really just saying that 350 00:18:29,360 --> 00:18:31,990 because my licensing took so long. 351 00:18:32,080 --> 00:18:33,750 And I would have loved to hear that. 352 00:18:33,760 --> 00:18:39,070 So it's OK to take your time. And 2nd I would say is take care 353 00:18:39,080 --> 00:18:42,050 of yourself. I really wanted to get licensed 354 00:18:42,060 --> 00:18:46,450 and, you know, was over studying, almost burning out. 355 00:18:46,500 --> 00:18:49,770 And it's not sustainable. As we all know, lawyers were 356 00:18:49,780 --> 00:18:52,970 using our brains almost all day. It's our the most prized 357 00:18:52,980 --> 00:18:56,470 possession, but with a healthy mind, you need a healthy body 358 00:18:56,480 --> 00:18:58,460 first. So I I would say take care of 359 00:18:58,470 --> 00:19:01,430 your body. And that means, you know, pacing 360 00:19:01,440 --> 00:19:04,430 yourself, don't overextend yourself, you know, take a 361 00:19:04,440 --> 00:19:08,450 break, exercise when you can get fresh air, see your friends. 362 00:19:08,600 --> 00:19:12,250 I think it's all important and balance is also very key. 363 00:19:12,300 --> 00:19:15,090 Third thing I would say, which you mentioned identity. 364 00:19:15,100 --> 00:19:17,130 And this is another big thing with lawyers. 365 00:19:17,140 --> 00:19:22,690 I think a lot of us oftentimes identify just as lawyers and you 366 00:19:22,700 --> 00:19:25,790 know, our whole life is wrapped up into this identity and it's 367 00:19:25,800 --> 00:19:28,200 great. But also, you know, I think 368 00:19:28,210 --> 00:19:31,150 we're more than our profession. You know, we're all 369 00:19:31,160 --> 00:19:33,650 multifaceted. We all have hobbies, other 370 00:19:33,660 --> 00:19:37,020 interests, and I think it's amazing to see ourselves as 371 00:19:37,310 --> 00:19:39,780 beyond lawyers, you know, more than that. 372 00:19:40,210 --> 00:19:43,830 And I think overall, the overarching theme is really, you 373 00:19:43,840 --> 00:19:47,960 know, live a balanced life. And that means also seeking your 374 00:19:47,970 --> 00:19:51,080 communities like the CHPA. And just know that everything 375 00:19:51,090 --> 00:19:54,660 will happen and it's time. I hope that makes sense. 376 00:19:54,670 --> 00:19:56,810 That's amazing. Well, thank you so much. 377 00:19:56,820 --> 00:20:00,030 As a young professional myself, I feel inspired by what you just 378 00:20:00,040 --> 00:20:01,450 said. So really, really much 379 00:20:01,460 --> 00:20:04,460 appreciated. Those are, if anything, they're 380 00:20:04,470 --> 00:20:07,910 great reminders of things that we need to be often reminded to 381 00:20:07,920 --> 00:20:09,930 do more and more. So I really appreciate you 382 00:20:09,940 --> 00:20:12,650 bringing that up. And I wanted to thank you truly 383 00:20:12,660 --> 00:20:15,510 for coming in the show and to share a little more about your 384 00:20:15,520 --> 00:20:18,670 story, your career, and also your your insights for our 385 00:20:18,680 --> 00:20:20,840 public thank. You thank you so much for having 386 00:20:20,850 --> 00:20:23,290 me and for creating this space for young people. 387 00:20:23,300 --> 00:20:26,410 As we said, you know this didn't exist years ago, so I really 388 00:20:26,420 --> 00:20:28,660 appreciate all the work you're doing in this space. 389 00:20:28,670 --> 00:20:31,550 Thank you so much and thank you all for tuning into today's 390 00:20:31,560 --> 00:20:33,250 episode and and listening.