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Welcome to Studying Law Around 
the World. 

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I'm Claudio Claus. 
In each episode, I talk with 

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lawyers, law students, and 
professors from different parts 

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of the world to talk about legal
education, careers, and what the

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profession looks like in real 
life. 

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We talk about the hard parts, 
the surprises, and the decisions

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that shaped their paths. 
Whether you're planning to study

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abroad, thinking about working 
in another legal system, or just

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curious about how law works 
around the world, this podcast 

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is for you. 
Today I'm hosting Sahil Shore, 

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he's a leading litigation and 
dispute resolution lawyer with a

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wide-ranging practice focusing 
on commercial disputes and 

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construction projects 
domestically and 

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internationally. 
He was culture the bar both in 

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Ontario and British Columbia and
has an incredible story, lots of

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awards. 
So excited to have you here 

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today. 
Thank you for joining in the 

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podcast sale. 
Thanks very much, Claudio, and 

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I'm really looking forward to 
our conversation and thank you 

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for having me. 
Appreciate it. 

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So to start off this 
conversation, I, I wanted to 

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hear a little bit more about 
yourself. 

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So can you please introduce 
yourself to our listeners and 

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share about your journey into 
law and maybe even what led you 

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to focus on construction on 
infrastructure disputes? 

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Suddenly, Claudio, I'm Sahel 
Shore. 

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I'm a partner with a law firm 
called Dawing WLG Canada LP. 

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I have a national practice and I
focus on project council and 

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dispute resolution work in the 
construction and infrastructure 

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projects in my practice. 
Practice sits at the 

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intersection of law, lots of 
engineering issues in the lot of

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major infrastructure projects 
and I act for owners, 

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contractors and then I say 
owners would public and private 

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on some of the most complex 
infrastructure projects in the 

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country and helping them 
navigate disputes when things 

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don't go as planned. 
And it is a it is a very 

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exciting time to be part of the 
infrastructure sector in our 

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country. 
And I'm trying to do my part by 

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by working with clients who are 
building some very fascinating 

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other one projects for economy. 
Fantastic so so here in the more

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you know about the work that 
you've done in very complex high

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stake projects nationally. 
I wanted to hear if there was 

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some specific moment now 
speaking about your career where

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you know, things maybe have felt
uncertain and then how that 

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shaped you into the lawyer you 
are today and and should give 

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you a little context to that. 
A lot of my listeners here are 

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early career professionals 
starting out right after law 

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school or right after the NCAA. 
And we've been hearing a lot 

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about, you know, the market 
being not so great right now or 

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are all these things. 
But I'm finding very interesting

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that lots of my guests that come
into the podcast saying, well, 

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when I graduated that was 
happening, there was some kind 

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of crisis or people weren't very
optimistic about the market. 

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So I want to hear what what's 
your story with that Very. 

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Much so Claudio. 
So like you, I went through the 

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NCA process and I article with a
great mentor of mine now and he 

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has been from the very first day
at a sole practitioner in 

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Thunder Bay ON and, and that was
the best experience from both 

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getting on to feet, learning the
business of law, etcetera. 

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And I joined the big firm that I
am an equity partner at shortly 

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after getting called to the bar.
I studied science for 

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undergraduate degree. 
Law was never part of the plan, 

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but I did academic appeals for 
students during undergraduate 

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degree while I was studying 
science at the Windsor, which I 

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really enjoyed. 
And that led to going to law 

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school in England, but decided 
to come back and rest is history

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to an extent. 
And I did a lot of moving, a lot

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of debating, a lot of a lot of 
the competitions during law 

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school. 
So I was always drawn to 

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environments where the stakes 
were high and I wanted to do the

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work that I am passionate about,
especially when the stakes are 

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high and the problems are 
complex and the outcomes 

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actually shape the society that 
we live in. 

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And infrastructure, in my view, 
is exactly that. 

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These are the projects that 
define our cities, our 

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economies, and our communities. 
And what really pulled me into 

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that realization was that behind
every dispute or every claim is 

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just not a legal issue, but a 
story about risk communication 

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and decision making under 
pressure. 

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And that is human and strategic 
dimension is what keeps me 

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deeply engaged in the work that 
I do and in terms of, you know, 

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early career uncertainty, 
etcetera. 

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And the question that you asked 
and to the listener who are 

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early in their careers, 
certainly there was there was a 

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lot of uncertainties. 
And I believe every lawyer goes 

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through that. 
And certainly early in my 

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career, there were defining 
moments where I felt like I 

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didn't have all the answers. 
And in this field, the 

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expectations are high very 
quickly. 

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So you're dealing with 
sophisticated clients, very 

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technical issues and significant
financial exposure. 

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So, you know, if I stop there, 
what shaped me during that time 

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early in my career was realizing
that you don't build confidence 

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by knowing everything. 
You build it by learning how to 

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think clearly under uncertainty.
So, so I focused on asking 

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better questions both internally
to the partners at the time that

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I was working with or senior 
associates being relentlessly 

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prepared and leaning into 
discomfort instead of avoiding 

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it. 
You know, I, I still remember 

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those days as if they were like 
yesterday. 

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So looking back, Claudia Dose, 
moments of uncertainty were 

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actually the foundation of my 
groups and they forced me to an 

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extent to developed judgment 
early. 

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And in my view, that's what 
ultimately drives and defines a 

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strong lawyer or a strong 
advocate for your client. 

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So much for sharing that. 
Very, very interesting to to 

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hear your perspective on it and,
and also what you went through 

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personally. 
And as I read about the articles

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you've written, something that 
that you've put out there, I 

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noticed that there is some, some
thought about, you know, instead

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of moving from claims at the 
end, there's a lot of more of a 

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thought on resolving issues 
during a project. 

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I think that really matters a 
lot when we're talking about 

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infrastructure, when we're 
talking about construction. 

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And I wouldn't you hear some of 
that, some of your thoughts on 

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that. 
How has that shift changed in, 

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in the way you practice, in the 
way you see these projects? 

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And what does that say to you 
about how the market, the 

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profession, how old, the actors,
the stakeholders are trying to 

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be a more articulator, try to 
really, you know, achieve those 

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things head on and from the 
beginning? 

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Certainly, Ricardo, this is one 
of the biggest transformations 

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that is happening in the 
industry at present. 

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And if we take a step back, 
traditionally lawyers, not 

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in-house lawyers, external 
lawyers like myself were brought

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in at the end of the project 
when the positions were 

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entrenched and the relationships
had already broken down. 

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And at that time you're often 
managing damage rather than 

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creating value. 
So what we have been doing and 

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we have been doing successfully 
for our clients on major 

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projects is a shift towards 
real-time dispute avoidance and 

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resolution, whether through 
adjudication, whether through 

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dispute boards or simply being 
proactive and playing a 

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proactive advisory role. 
And that fundamentally changes 

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the lawyers role. 
So you're no longer simply just 

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advocates after the fact, you're
becoming strategic partners 

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during the project. 
So we are helping clients make 

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better decisions in real time, 
preserve relationship and avoid 

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disputes before they escalate. 
And I often tell my clients that

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the best dispute is the one that
never crystallizes. 

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And for the role that me and my 
team are playing, in our view, 

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you know, the project council 
role as we describe it, 

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certainly that is where the 
profession is headed on complex,

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very complex projects. 
And it is headed towards being 

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embedded, towards being 
proactive and being commercially

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minded, right? 
Like if the project is delayed 

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and if the project is delayed 
and that delay is costing your 

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client, if your owner or what, 
whoever the case may be, yes, 

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you may have a delay claim, but 
you may want to be able to 

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resolve that issue head on 
because that end product that 

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you're going to get, you want to
be able to be able to use that 

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end product. 
In other words, have the project

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completed. 
So having that commercial mind 

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and being proactive to try to 
get ahead of the issue before 

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the issue becomes the headline 
for how the project is 

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described. 
You don't want that to be the 

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case. 
You don't want to be your 

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project that is being spoken 
about in the news for the 

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project that becomes part of an 
inquiry. 

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Amazing. 
Something else that that I've 

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identified as well between, you 
know, your publications and all 

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of that is that you have spoken 
about how disputes often build 

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quietly before they become 
formal. 

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So you just said a little bit 
about that, that very proactive 

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role, not reactive, right? 
So if I may ask you, you know, 

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what are some of the signs that 
lawyers who are really working 

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together with the business can, 
can really help their clients 

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to, to recognize early on? 
And and maybe to our young 

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lawyer listeners here, all they 
can recognize those early as 

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well from from being close to 
the business, from seeing the 

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signs that basically dispute is 
on the way. 

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In my experience, and you know, 
when we when I speak to my 

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colleagues and partners around 
the country, I truly believe 

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that disputes rarely start with 
the big moment. 

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And I also truly believe that 
they build quietly. 

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And some of the early signs are 
actually very subtle, a shift in

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tone and humanication, delays in
responses or approvals, 

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increasingly defensive language 
or overly foreign language that 

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is being used in the 
communication. 

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And the smallest of the smallest
issue is being documented very 

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aggressively. 
But this biggest signal is 

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misalignment, when the parties 
stop having the same 

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understanding of the projects. 
And in my view, both the great 

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lawyers and the great clients 
who pay attention to those early

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signals, you can identify if you
take a step back and really see 

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like, are we getting into too 
much letter writing and becoming

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keyboard warriors? 
You know, you can if you've 

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really paused, you can really 
tell if we don't stop this, 

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there's a potential of this 
becoming a much bigger issues. 

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Because Claudia, what happens is
once position hardened, your 

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options narrow significantly. 
And what I mean by that is that 

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one of the most valuable things 
in external lawyer can do is to 

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step in early and reframe the 
conversation before it becomes 

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adversarial. 
That's not just a legal skill, 

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that's judgment. 
And that's also emotional 

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intelligence. 
You have to be able to speak to 

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your project team, IE your 
client team. 

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You have to be able to 
understand what their pinpoints 

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are, and you have to speak their
language. 

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Amazing. 
Now digging more in your your 

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career path, I see that it 
reflects, you know, a lot about,

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you know, a strong technical 
expertise, but also a lot of 

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strong relationships. 
So I wanted to ask you, you 

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know, in this career aspect now,
how has mentorship, sponsorship 

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played a role in your growth? 
I think you started this episode

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recognizing one of your mentors 
that you know, you, you first 

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started your career on there. 
So I want to hear more about 

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your experience with mentorship,
with sponsorship, and how that 

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has been playing a role in your 
career. 

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For sure, Claudio, and and you 
know, mentorship, sponsorship is

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is has been truly I'm the 
byproduct of all of that. 

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And you know, I don't forget 
about it and I definitely try my

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very hard to pay it forward. 
Does it truly believe no one 

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built a career like like being 
able to do work on very complex 

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projects alone? 
And I think it is very important

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to say that openly. 
I have been very fortunate to 

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have strong mentors who have 
challenged me, but also sponsors

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who advocated for me when I was 
in in that room. 

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You know, those are two very 
different roles, and both are 

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very critical. 
I've had mentors my whole 

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career. 
You know, I still have mentors 

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both within the firm and outside
the firm. 

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And beyond formal mentorship, 
there's what I call your 

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village. 
And by that I mean, you know, my

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peers, my colleagues, clients, 
and also opposing counsel who 

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shape how you think and how you 
grow. 

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And in that regard, I've always 
tried my very best to invest in 

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relationships generally, you 
know, not thinking about them as

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a transaction because over time,
your reputation is built not 

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just on your technical ability, 
but on how you actually show up.

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And by how you actually show up,
what I mean is you, your 

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reliability, your judgment, and 
how you treat people under 

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pressure. 
So that village becomes one of 

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your greatest, greatest assets. 
I really appreciate this aspect.

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I love it being called, you 
know, your village and speaking.

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You know, drilling down in this 
point, I saw that you've been 

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recognized widely with many 
awards by Chambers, Legal 500, 

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Lexpert. 
But also we have to recognize 

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anyone in this field would know 
that, you know, behind this 

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achievements, there's a lot of 
work that people don't see. 

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So I wanted to ask you, you 
know, what does the day-to-day 

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look like as you were building 
it? 

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Not not only right now, but you 
know through, through your 

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career to, to really build this 
kind of career, one that is 

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strong technically, one where 
relationships are valued and you

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build that village and also 
where you can be recognized for 

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that work. 
Certainly Claudio, you know, the

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recognition is very much 
appreciated, but it's really 

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just a byproduct. 
And what I mean by that is the 

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day-to-day reality is much less 
glamorous. 

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It's it's long hours, it's high 
expectation and also a constant 

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need to stay sharp. 
And what I mean by that is 

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staying sharp not just legally 
but commercially and 

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strategically. 
And it's, it could be raising 

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reading hundreds and thousands 
of project records or 

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understanding technical issues 
very deeply or working with the 

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expert team to really narrow 
down like, what does this 

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actually mean? 
And being able to distill 

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complexity into clear advice. 
And more than that, Claudio, 

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it's also consistency, doing 
high quality work repeatedly, 

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being extremely responsive, 
being dependable when it matters

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the most. 
So look, there has been no 

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shortcut. 
It's built one file, one client,

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one decision at a time. 
And I think that's something 

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people don't always see from the
outside, but we have really high

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expectations of ourselves and of
our people and of our work that 

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goes out the door. 
So you know it is all of that 

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and you have to be able to do it
at all times. 

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Absolutely, I appreciate you 
mentioning that it is the 

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reality of, of the career and 
especially delivering at such a 

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high level. 
And when, when we put in 

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factoring all of that together, 
I wanted to ask you, you know, a

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little bit of what, what, what's
ahead as well as we as we look 

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online and all of that. 
I think every third article says

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something about AI and it is 
really interesting what can be 

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done. 
There's a lot of filtering 

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through the noise. 
There's a lot of different 

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points, but specifically in your
fields, you know, looking into 

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infrastructure projects, this 
this growing complexity of the 

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world's, a lot of things 
happening that are, you know, 

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interesting in the, the 
geopolitical sphere as well. 

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What do you think that lawyers 
will need, what kind of skills 

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they will need to stay relevant 
and valuable when looking ahead 

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into this next, you know, 5-10 
years? 

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What are some of your thoughts 
on on this conversation? 

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That's when it comes to 
artificial intelligence because 

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I find it fascinating firstly, 
but certainly glad your next 5 

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to 10 years or certainly going 
to reshape the profession and I 

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hope it in meaningful way 
because in my view and it is 

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only my view, AI will absolutely
change how we process 

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information, how we manage 
documents and even to an extent 

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predicted outcomes. 
But what it will not do is 

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replace judgment. 
If anything, I think it will 

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amplify the importance of higher
level skills and the lawyers who

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will thrive or those who can 
think strategically human, get 

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clearly exercised judgment under
pressure and understand their 

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clients business and deeply. 
So the technical legal knowledge

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will always matter, but it won't
be enough on its own. 

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And you know, if I take a step 
back, Claudio, one of the things

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that I often think of is, and I,
I think it in this way that AI 

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will handle the answers, but 
lawyers will need to define the 

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right questions. 
And in complex, complex 

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infrastructure projects, those 
questions are everything. 

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Fantastic. 
Well, thank you so much for for 

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sharing those thoughts there. 
They're very interesting and I 

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00:19:48,290 --> 00:19:50,500
appreciate you being so 
uplifting with them. 

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Chu Sahil. 
Now to close up our conversation

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today, I wanted to ask you, you 
know, specifically thinking 

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about our young lawyers here 
and, and maybe even thinking 

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about you as a young lawyer a 
couple of years back. 

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I wanted you to to share with us
for those facing uncertainties, 

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struggling to find their 
footing, or maybe just feeling a

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little bit discouraged with the 
first few outcomes that they get

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in in the career. 
What kind of advice would you 

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give based on your experience? 
I really thought about that 

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question for for some time and I
would say three things. 

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First, Claudio, I would say 
don't wait to be ready. 

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You will never be ready. 
Speaking from personal 

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experience, both in the past and
even right now, I truly believe 

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growth happens when you step 
into opportunities before you 

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are fully comfortable. 
The second thing, Claudio, I 

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will tell your young listeners 
is that focus on building 

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judgment and not just knowledge.
And what I mean by that is 

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knowledge is accessible. 
However, judgment is developed 

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through experience and 
reflection. 

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And thirdly, invest in 
relationships early. 

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It is crucial that you invest in
relationships early and you 

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don't, you know, you don't deal 
with relationships as if they 

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are a transaction. 
And also to the young listeners,

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that your career is not just 
defined by what you know, but 

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who trusts you. 
And that trust is built over 

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time, through consistency, 
through integrity, and how you 

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show up every day. 
So if I were to leave the young 

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listeners with one thought, it 
would be this. 

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That your career is a long game.
Focus on becoming someone people

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00:21:43,830 --> 00:21:48,420
rely on, not just someone who 
has the right answers, and 

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everything else follows from 
that. 

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I really appreciate you taking 
the time to come in the podcast 

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00:21:53,570 --> 00:21:57,860
and share your, your wisdom that
you've, you know, built together

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00:21:57,870 --> 00:22:01,640
over the this very exciting 
career of yours. 

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00:22:01,720 --> 00:22:05,640
Wanted to thank you for for all 
of that and appreciate also the 

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00:22:05,650 --> 00:22:09,140
listeners who took the time to 
to join in and listen to today's

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podcast. 
Thank you very much, Claudio. 

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This has been a great 
conversation and I really 

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00:22:14,010 --> 00:22:17,060
appreciate the opportunity to 
share my perspectives.