1 00:00:12,880 --> 00:00:14,870 Welcome to Studying Law Around the World. 2 00:00:15,020 --> 00:00:17,870 I'm Claudio Claus. In each episode, I talk with 3 00:00:17,880 --> 00:00:20,850 lawyers, law students, and professors from different parts 4 00:00:20,860 --> 00:00:24,740 of the world to talk about legal education, careers, and what the 5 00:00:24,750 --> 00:00:26,410 profession looks like in real life. 6 00:00:26,420 --> 00:00:29,470 We talk about the hard parts, the surprises, and the decisions 7 00:00:29,480 --> 00:00:32,270 that shaped their paths. Whether you're planning to study 8 00:00:32,280 --> 00:00:35,520 abroad, thinking about working in another legal system, or just 9 00:00:35,530 --> 00:00:39,650 curious about how law works around the world, this podcast 10 00:00:39,660 --> 00:00:44,480 is for you. Today I'll be interviewing 11 00:00:44,530 --> 00:00:49,060 Merlina Vetta, she's a lawyer in Germany and has a very, very 12 00:00:49,070 --> 00:00:53,680 interesting story and background connecting an LLM International 13 00:00:53,690 --> 00:00:57,390 Trade and Investment law from the University of Amsterdam in 14 00:00:57,400 --> 00:01:01,120 the Netherlands. She has very interesting 15 00:01:01,130 --> 00:01:05,580 projects all throughout Europe. She has worked at a law firm in 16 00:01:05,590 --> 00:01:09,160 Austria and Vienna. She also graduated from law 17 00:01:09,170 --> 00:01:12,260 school in Germany. Very, very interested to learn 18 00:01:12,270 --> 00:01:15,220 more about your story. Marlena, thank you so much for 19 00:01:15,230 --> 00:01:17,040 making the time to be in the podcast today. 20 00:01:17,110 --> 00:01:19,360 Thank you so much for having me, I'm really glad to be here. 21 00:01:19,410 --> 00:01:21,040 Absolutely. And to start off our 22 00:01:21,050 --> 00:01:23,720 conversation, I'd love for you to tell us a little more about 23 00:01:23,730 --> 00:01:25,930 yourself and and about your current role. 24 00:01:25,940 --> 00:01:28,800 Of course. So I work as a senior associate 25 00:01:28,810 --> 00:01:31,100 at the law firm called Bodenheimer. 26 00:01:31,190 --> 00:01:35,620 We are based in Germany and we have a focus on national and 27 00:01:35,630 --> 00:01:37,240 international dispute resolution. 28 00:01:37,250 --> 00:01:40,840 And within that practice I specifically focus on 29 00:01:40,850 --> 00:01:44,320 cross-border litigation and international arbitration. 30 00:01:44,330 --> 00:01:47,640 And it's a field I'm genuinely passionate about. 31 00:01:47,650 --> 00:01:50,740 So I'm very much looking forward to talking about it today. 32 00:01:50,790 --> 00:01:53,820 Fantastic. And something that I always 33 00:01:53,830 --> 00:01:57,040 explore here in the podcast is about studying law around the 34 00:01:57,050 --> 00:01:59,400 world is the name of the podcast, as you know. 35 00:01:59,450 --> 00:02:02,520 So I'm always interested in learning about how how becoming 36 00:02:02,530 --> 00:02:05,540 a lawyer works, but most interested about people's 37 00:02:05,550 --> 00:02:07,960 careers and how they got you where they are they're at. 38 00:02:08,030 --> 00:02:11,790 And I've I've looked up on your resume as I was preparing for 39 00:02:11,800 --> 00:02:15,410 this interview that you trained in Germany and later completed 40 00:02:15,420 --> 00:02:17,450 an LM, as I had mentioned in Amsterdam. 41 00:02:17,500 --> 00:02:20,290 So I wanted to ask you a little more about that part of your 42 00:02:20,300 --> 00:02:24,190 story and what first attracted you to international arbitration 43 00:02:24,200 --> 00:02:27,830 and cross-border disputes. Honestly, the desire to work 44 00:02:27,840 --> 00:02:30,890 internationally was there from the very beginning, and it was 45 00:02:30,980 --> 00:02:34,930 one of the reasons I actually wanted to study law in the 1st 46 00:02:34,940 --> 00:02:37,390 place. And I knew early on that I 47 00:02:37,400 --> 00:02:42,110 wanted to pursue a career that would take me beyond one country 48 00:02:42,120 --> 00:02:46,490 or one legal system, one way of thinking about legal problems. 49 00:02:46,500 --> 00:02:51,110 And at the university I studied in Heidelberg in the South of 50 00:02:51,120 --> 00:02:55,100 Germany, I had the opportunity to participate in the Phillips C 51 00:02:55,110 --> 00:02:58,960 Jessup Moot Court. It's a public international law 52 00:02:58,970 --> 00:03:02,320 focused mood court. And this experience really 53 00:03:02,330 --> 00:03:06,620 opened my eyes to this fascinating, highly specific 54 00:03:06,630 --> 00:03:11,700 field of law with its own rules, its own case law, its own 55 00:03:11,790 --> 00:03:15,260 culture really. And from there it for me, it 56 00:03:15,270 --> 00:03:19,000 came together very naturally. International arbitration sits 57 00:03:19,010 --> 00:03:23,840 at this unique intersection of law, commerce, different 58 00:03:23,850 --> 00:03:27,780 cultures, different legal systems, and it's tied 59 00:03:27,790 --> 00:03:31,700 everything that I was genuinely interested in together for me. 60 00:03:31,710 --> 00:03:35,970 So the choice then became very clear to pursue international 61 00:03:35,980 --> 00:03:38,260 arbitration. That's amazing and, and very 62 00:03:38,270 --> 00:03:41,090 interesting. I, I remember looking it up when 63 00:03:41,100 --> 00:03:43,620 I was preparing for this interview that also Heidelberg 64 00:03:43,630 --> 00:03:46,580 is one of the oldest universities in, in today's 65 00:03:46,590 --> 00:03:47,880 Germany. It's from the pits. 66 00:03:47,950 --> 00:03:51,400 I was very, very surprised, especially growing up in Latin 67 00:03:51,410 --> 00:03:56,160 America and now living in Canada where, where the so-called new 68 00:03:56,170 --> 00:03:58,230 world, there are so many institutions. 69 00:03:58,240 --> 00:04:01,580 Our oldest institutions here are, you know, from the, I don't 70 00:04:01,590 --> 00:04:05,140 know, bids are heard that it's so it's very interesting to see 71 00:04:05,150 --> 00:04:07,380 the history that lives on in these institutions. 72 00:04:07,390 --> 00:04:10,030 And I appreciate you sharing a little more about, you know, 73 00:04:10,040 --> 00:04:12,660 this desire that that you had early on and that you 74 00:04:12,670 --> 00:04:14,960 cultivated. So I understand that early in 75 00:04:14,970 --> 00:04:18,540 your career you worked with arbitration teams in different 76 00:04:18,550 --> 00:04:20,820 jurisdictions, including in Austria. 77 00:04:21,110 --> 00:04:24,440 And I, I wanted to ask you what are some of the most important 78 00:04:24,450 --> 00:04:29,140 lessons that you took from those experiences and what, what was 79 00:04:29,150 --> 00:04:32,320 it like to adapt to a new professional environment? 80 00:04:32,370 --> 00:04:36,000 I would say the biggest lesson that I took from those early 81 00:04:36,010 --> 00:04:40,560 experiences in working different teams in different law firms in 82 00:04:40,570 --> 00:04:44,800 in particular abroad, is something that I still believe 83 00:04:44,850 --> 00:04:49,120 in very deeply today, that there are no two legal teams that work 84 00:04:49,130 --> 00:04:52,500 in the same way. Every environment has something 85 00:04:52,510 --> 00:04:56,370 to teach you and there's a different approach to a case 86 00:04:56,430 --> 00:05:00,620 strategy, a different internal culture of the law firm, 87 00:05:00,920 --> 00:05:03,180 different workflow that they follow. 88 00:05:03,190 --> 00:05:07,060 And I believe it's genuinely always worth paying attention to 89 00:05:07,070 --> 00:05:10,320 those differences because it can always teach you something. 90 00:05:10,390 --> 00:05:13,690 And then specifically in cross-border work, which is 91 00:05:13,700 --> 00:05:17,320 where I was more involved in, in the arbitration context, there 92 00:05:17,330 --> 00:05:19,480 is an additional dimension to that. 93 00:05:19,490 --> 00:05:23,040 And that is that if you're going to deal effectively with 94 00:05:23,050 --> 00:05:27,320 clients, counterparties or also colleagues from different parts 95 00:05:27,330 --> 00:05:31,360 of the world, you also need to genuinely understand the 96 00:05:31,370 --> 00:05:34,740 differences in legal culture and legal thinking. 97 00:05:34,750 --> 00:05:38,900 And the best way to develop that understanding and that skill of 98 00:05:38,910 --> 00:05:42,500 understanding it is in my belief, direct exposure. 99 00:05:42,510 --> 00:05:45,580 And therefore there is no substitute for having actually 100 00:05:45,590 --> 00:05:47,840 worked in a different legal system. 101 00:05:47,850 --> 00:05:50,960 Although I want to admit that the Austrian legal system is not 102 00:05:50,970 --> 00:05:54,360 that far off from the German legal system. 103 00:05:54,410 --> 00:05:58,400 But there's one thing I'd like to emphasise, especially for 104 00:05:58,410 --> 00:06:02,500 listeners early in their career. And that is that the factor of 105 00:06:02,510 --> 00:06:05,940 how much you get out of an experience of working in a 106 00:06:05,950 --> 00:06:09,720 different environment, in a different team is almost 107 00:06:09,730 --> 00:06:13,560 entirely up to you, I believe, whether you're a student on an 108 00:06:13,570 --> 00:06:18,180 internship or working as a research assistant, or assigned 109 00:06:18,190 --> 00:06:22,060 as an associate to a particular case, even in a specific 110 00:06:22,070 --> 00:06:24,340 project. Only the people who truly 111 00:06:24,350 --> 00:06:28,170 benefit from that experience, in my point of view, are the ones 112 00:06:28,180 --> 00:06:30,430 who are really leaning into that experience. 113 00:06:30,440 --> 00:06:35,510 And that can be by offering your support, by asking questions, by 114 00:06:35,520 --> 00:06:39,080 finding ways to get involved in meetings and getting close to 115 00:06:39,090 --> 00:06:42,030 the actual work and the actual matters. 116 00:06:42,100 --> 00:06:46,710 And in my experience, showing curiosity in in new work 117 00:06:46,720 --> 00:06:50,510 environment will always help you to be quickly involved and 118 00:06:50,520 --> 00:06:54,250 really learn from the people that are working on the cases 119 00:06:54,260 --> 00:06:58,190 and also gain experience from the way that they're working on. 120 00:06:58,200 --> 00:07:01,440 It I appreciate that thought. I appreciate the early advice 121 00:07:01,450 --> 00:07:04,510 here to your listeners. And I also understand that your 122 00:07:04,520 --> 00:07:08,470 work involves disputes that are often governed by different 123 00:07:08,480 --> 00:07:12,270 legal systems, also different places of arbitration around the 124 00:07:12,280 --> 00:07:13,940 world. And I wanted to ask you, how 125 00:07:13,950 --> 00:07:17,640 does working across different systems then shape the way that 126 00:07:17,650 --> 00:07:19,980 you approach this legal problems? 127 00:07:20,030 --> 00:07:23,340 I understand that answer is grounded on on work experience, 128 00:07:23,350 --> 00:07:26,900 but also in university research and experience that you've 129 00:07:26,910 --> 00:07:30,120 undergone over the years. I think it fundamentally 130 00:07:30,130 --> 00:07:34,040 broadens the way of your legal thinking, and I mean that in the 131 00:07:34,050 --> 00:07:37,740 most practical sense. When you work with one legal 132 00:07:37,750 --> 00:07:41,750 system, there is a natural tendency that you treat this 133 00:07:41,760 --> 00:07:47,040 system as your own framework and then also as the default. 134 00:07:47,090 --> 00:07:51,300 That's just the way that you've been legally trained and working 135 00:07:51,310 --> 00:07:56,360 across legal systems sometimes dismantles that assumption very 136 00:07:56,370 --> 00:07:59,240 quickly of this is how you should do it. 137 00:07:59,330 --> 00:08:03,090 And then you realize that the same legal problem can be 138 00:08:03,100 --> 00:08:07,700 approached in very different ways and that the obvious 139 00:08:07,710 --> 00:08:11,480 solution that you arrive to from your own legal background is 140 00:08:11,530 --> 00:08:16,160 sometimes definitely not the only solution that can be put to 141 00:08:16,170 --> 00:08:18,920 the table. And the more you are open and 142 00:08:18,930 --> 00:08:22,560 the more you are creative, it's in my opinion, it will help you 143 00:08:22,570 --> 00:08:27,340 to see more than one side to a legal complex. 144 00:08:27,350 --> 00:08:31,530 And this connects directly to something I mentioned earlier 145 00:08:31,540 --> 00:08:33,480 about understanding legal culture. 146 00:08:33,530 --> 00:08:37,520 You develop in the course of your work a sensitivity to how 147 00:08:37,530 --> 00:08:41,390 your counterparts or even opposing counsel and in 148 00:08:41,400 --> 00:08:44,550 particular you're arbitrators are likely to reason. 149 00:08:44,600 --> 00:08:48,510 If you have if you are involved in an arbitration and you have a 150 00:08:48,560 --> 00:08:52,470 tribunal that is combining different legal backgrounds, it 151 00:08:52,480 --> 00:08:56,330 is really necessary that you have a sensitivity and also a 152 00:08:56,340 --> 00:09:01,630 strategic approach as to how you can tie in these different legal 153 00:09:01,740 --> 00:09:05,330 backgrounds and still find a convincing argument that is in 154 00:09:05,340 --> 00:09:07,630 the end going to work in your favour. 155 00:09:08,080 --> 00:09:10,370 This challenge keeps you curious. 156 00:09:10,380 --> 00:09:15,110 I believe every new legal system has a particular lens through 157 00:09:15,120 --> 00:09:19,290 which it examines a certain problem or certain consolation. 158 00:09:19,300 --> 00:09:23,050 And if you're curious to learn about these things, broadens 159 00:09:23,060 --> 00:09:25,820 your skill set, it broadens your horizon, and it keeps you 160 00:09:25,830 --> 00:09:29,500 creative in finding solutions. Amazing, thank you for sharing 161 00:09:29,510 --> 00:09:32,000 that. It's, it's always interesting to 162 00:09:32,010 --> 00:09:34,940 see the, the different perspectives that lawyers bring 163 00:09:34,950 --> 00:09:37,490 in this, in this podcast. But I really appreciate 164 00:09:37,500 --> 00:09:40,610 especially the, the lived experience that, that you just 165 00:09:40,670 --> 00:09:44,440 shared of, of how that comes about really when it comes to, 166 00:09:44,450 --> 00:09:47,000 to real life, to actually presenting in front of an 167 00:09:47,010 --> 00:09:49,140 arbitration panel and, and all of that. 168 00:09:49,150 --> 00:09:52,120 I understand you have worked as council and, and also as a 169 00:09:52,130 --> 00:09:56,640 secretary to arbitral tribunals and also as an arbitrator. 170 00:09:56,650 --> 00:09:59,720 Well, how do you sing arbitration from those different 171 00:09:59,730 --> 00:10:03,180 perspectives, from different roles has influenced the way 172 00:10:03,190 --> 00:10:07,010 that you handle a case nowadays. I believe it's extremely 173 00:10:07,060 --> 00:10:10,950 valuable because every role gives you a very different 174 00:10:10,960 --> 00:10:15,230 vantage point on the same problem, on the same process. 175 00:10:15,320 --> 00:10:19,430 And learning from these experience makes you better in 176 00:10:19,440 --> 00:10:22,070 each of the other perspectives that you can take. 177 00:10:22,080 --> 00:10:26,030 I believe so when you're acting as a party representative, your 178 00:10:26,040 --> 00:10:31,240 entire perspective is very naturally anchored to the 179 00:10:31,250 --> 00:10:34,510 perspective of your client. So your goal is to build the 180 00:10:34,520 --> 00:10:38,890 most compelling case possible and convince the tribunal and 181 00:10:38,900 --> 00:10:41,060 this is the world that you're operating in. 182 00:10:41,120 --> 00:10:45,410 But if you set also on the other side, and if you have seen cases 183 00:10:45,420 --> 00:10:49,200 from the perspective of an arbitrator, you start to develop 184 00:10:49,290 --> 00:10:53,300 a sharp instinct for what is actually going to land with a 185 00:10:53,310 --> 00:10:57,340 tribunal and what is maybe not. And of course it's you and never 186 00:10:57,350 --> 00:11:01,940 have the certainty, but you start to understand more 187 00:11:01,950 --> 00:11:06,320 intuitively what the tribunal is looking for, creates doubt, what 188 00:11:06,330 --> 00:11:10,200 creates conviction, and also how the process within the arbitral 189 00:11:10,210 --> 00:11:15,440 tribunal might develop throughout an arbitration in its 190 00:11:15,450 --> 00:11:17,500 whole. And I believe that this makes 191 00:11:17,510 --> 00:11:20,250 you more effective as an advocate. 192 00:11:20,510 --> 00:11:24,100 In addition to that, if you want to become involved as an 193 00:11:24,110 --> 00:11:29,500 arbitrator yourself, being a tribunal secretary is one of the 194 00:11:29,510 --> 00:11:34,200 ways of gaining experience and arbitration that goes beyond 195 00:11:34,210 --> 00:11:37,370 party representation because there is a very deliberate, 196 00:11:38,220 --> 00:11:41,790 deliberative process in arbitration that is for very 197 00:11:41,800 --> 00:11:45,050 good reasons, largely opaque to the outside world. 198 00:11:45,060 --> 00:11:48,850 So it's very difficult to have an inside of how do these 199 00:11:48,860 --> 00:11:52,910 debates unfold, what is discussed, who is convinced by 200 00:11:52,980 --> 00:11:56,190 by what really. And if you get first hand 201 00:11:56,200 --> 00:12:00,350 exposure to how this arbitrary tribunal operates internally, 202 00:12:00,400 --> 00:12:05,610 it's very valuable to have this insight that you cannot acquire 203 00:12:05,660 --> 00:12:09,020 really in any other way. So I'm very fortunate to say 204 00:12:09,030 --> 00:12:13,570 that I had the experience of looking at arbitrary proceedings 205 00:12:13,580 --> 00:12:16,930 from all three perspectives and it gives you a more complete 206 00:12:16,940 --> 00:12:20,310 picture of what arbitration is. It certainly looks very 207 00:12:20,320 --> 00:12:23,770 different from each perspective, and it's not just what it looks 208 00:12:23,780 --> 00:12:27,850 like from the corner that you are currently sitting at. 209 00:12:28,780 --> 00:12:33,170 And Marlena, in your experience, what skills should young lawyers 210 00:12:33,180 --> 00:12:35,880 develop if they want to build a career in international 211 00:12:35,890 --> 00:12:39,310 arbitration? You did mention that having this 212 00:12:39,320 --> 00:12:42,250 work experience will give them a really interesting view. 213 00:12:42,300 --> 00:12:45,130 But I'm also wondering about, you know, the skills that can be 214 00:12:45,140 --> 00:12:49,030 developed maybe before having such experience or if there's 215 00:12:49,040 --> 00:12:52,830 only a certain amount of job openings for that specific 216 00:12:52,840 --> 00:12:55,370 positions. Like, if that's not possible, 217 00:12:55,380 --> 00:12:58,210 what are some of the skills, be it, you know, soft skills or 218 00:12:58,220 --> 00:13:01,350 technical skills that would really help a young lawyer 219 00:13:01,680 --> 00:13:04,770 trying to find their way into international arbitration? 220 00:13:04,880 --> 00:13:09,410 That's a very good question. I think the conversation about 221 00:13:09,420 --> 00:13:14,050 skills in our profession sometimes is very focused on 222 00:13:14,100 --> 00:13:18,530 technical legal ability. And in more recent times, of 223 00:13:18,540 --> 00:13:24,990 course also how you're handling programs like AI, how you're 224 00:13:25,050 --> 00:13:29,200 able to work with different programs that will help you in 225 00:13:29,590 --> 00:13:34,000 management of larger files, for example, document productions 226 00:13:34,010 --> 00:13:38,460 and the such. But I believe there is more to 227 00:13:38,470 --> 00:13:43,340 that and that is often a skill set that you can develop beyond 228 00:13:43,390 --> 00:13:47,460 actually working in the field. Only one point that came to my 229 00:13:47,470 --> 00:13:51,760 mind is really focusing and laying a good foundation on 230 00:13:51,770 --> 00:13:57,000 learning how to think. And that sounds simple, but it's 231 00:13:57,050 --> 00:14:00,300 really not. Because the ability to analyze a 232 00:14:00,310 --> 00:14:04,580 problem, problem to its core and to question your owners 233 00:14:04,830 --> 00:14:10,030 assumptions and your own reasoning carefully and come to 234 00:14:10,040 --> 00:14:13,910 a decision under pressure. A lot of pressure being it 235 00:14:13,960 --> 00:14:17,210 because of the nature of the dispute or because a certain 236 00:14:17,220 --> 00:14:20,110 time sensitivity becomes very valuable. 237 00:14:20,120 --> 00:14:24,470 And if anything, it becomes more relevant in an age where I can 238 00:14:24,480 --> 00:14:27,310 produce convincing output very quickly. 239 00:14:27,320 --> 00:14:31,790 Because if you cannot critically evaluate this output yourself 240 00:14:31,850 --> 00:14:36,130 and becomes very difficult to stay in control of your own 241 00:14:36,140 --> 00:14:39,050 work. Another skill that I find very 242 00:14:39,060 --> 00:14:44,450 important is strategic thinking. So learning how to prioritize 243 00:14:44,460 --> 00:14:47,070 certain decisions, certain tasks. 244 00:14:47,120 --> 00:14:50,690 A lot of being a lawyer comes down to project management. 245 00:14:50,740 --> 00:14:56,440 So being organized, staying on top of your file of sometimes 246 00:14:56,450 --> 00:15:01,140 many files simultaneously, that sometimes also requires you to 247 00:15:01,150 --> 00:15:04,410 make decisions with incomplete information because more often 248 00:15:04,420 --> 00:15:08,940 than not, you don't have a full mapped out case in front of you. 249 00:15:09,010 --> 00:15:12,780 And beyond that, I'd like to point to interpersonal skills. 250 00:15:12,830 --> 00:15:18,810 So empathy, the ability to truly listen, to truly understand, the 251 00:15:18,820 --> 00:15:23,680 ability to collaborate effectively and also to build 252 00:15:23,770 --> 00:15:27,070 genuine relationships. It's not a secret that that in 253 00:15:27,080 --> 00:15:30,880 particular arbitration is a field that is highly 254 00:15:30,890 --> 00:15:35,740 relationship driven and it will remain essential and it will 255 00:15:35,870 --> 00:15:39,680 become even more so important to be able to build those 256 00:15:39,690 --> 00:15:42,250 connections. And I like to believe that this 257 00:15:42,260 --> 00:15:45,100 is a skill that cannot be outsourced so quickly. 258 00:15:45,110 --> 00:15:46,680 At 2:00 AM. I love that. 259 00:15:46,690 --> 00:15:50,650 No, I really appreciate it. And it's interesting to hear 260 00:15:50,730 --> 00:15:54,870 perspectives on the ice on AI should from different parts of 261 00:15:54,880 --> 00:15:58,880 the world because I believe that in North America overall, we 262 00:15:58,890 --> 00:16:04,840 have this idea that that Europe has a much more careful approach 263 00:16:04,850 --> 00:16:07,080 to data privacy and to all of that. 264 00:16:07,090 --> 00:16:12,020 So it's interesting to see how adoption has been taking a stage 265 00:16:12,030 --> 00:16:14,580 in different parts of the world. And I appreciate you, you're 266 00:16:14,590 --> 00:16:18,220 mentioning AI in this very substantial way. 267 00:16:18,270 --> 00:16:21,160 So I'm curious to know a little bit as well. 268 00:16:21,170 --> 00:16:24,220 When you think about, you know, the trajectory that you've done, 269 00:16:24,270 --> 00:16:27,120 I think I mentioned to you that most of the audience of the 270 00:16:27,130 --> 00:16:30,980 podcast today are young lawyers or early career professionals 271 00:16:31,050 --> 00:16:34,120 looking into all the different possibilities and what can you 272 00:16:34,130 --> 00:16:36,610 do with a law degree. And I wanted to ask you, you 273 00:16:36,620 --> 00:16:40,460 know, looking ahead, what do you see or, or how do you see 274 00:16:40,510 --> 00:16:44,380 international arbitration evolving in this next decade and 275 00:16:44,390 --> 00:16:48,360 not what opportunities might this create for the next 276 00:16:48,370 --> 00:16:50,820 generation of lawyers? I think it will be a very 277 00:16:50,830 --> 00:16:55,940 interesting next decade ahead and I probably have no idea what 278 00:16:55,950 --> 00:16:59,110 it's actually going to look like in 10 years and maybe we talk in 279 00:16:59,120 --> 00:17:02,280 10 years. And I'd be shocked what 280 00:17:02,330 --> 00:17:04,770 happened. I think 1 immediate force that 281 00:17:04,780 --> 00:17:08,410 you already mentioned and that we talked about now is of course 282 00:17:08,520 --> 00:17:13,250 technology. AI is already changing very much 283 00:17:13,400 --> 00:17:17,410 the way that we handle document heavy cases, how we conduct 284 00:17:17,420 --> 00:17:21,650 legal research, how we manage logistics of cases, in 285 00:17:21,660 --> 00:17:24,730 particular in complex multi jurisdictional proceedings. 286 00:17:24,740 --> 00:17:28,550 It becomes more and more easy to also gain information about 287 00:17:28,560 --> 00:17:31,840 different legal systems. Whereas before you might have 288 00:17:31,850 --> 00:17:36,810 been maybe inclined to ask a colleague abroad to get at least 289 00:17:36,820 --> 00:17:40,510 a basic understanding of what is going on, now the hurdles are 290 00:17:40,560 --> 00:17:43,570 are much lower I would say. And this process I believe will 291 00:17:43,580 --> 00:17:47,460 only accelerate. But my honest view is that the 292 00:17:47,470 --> 00:17:52,070 lawyers who will thrive in this environment will be the ones who 293 00:17:52,080 --> 00:17:56,370 use the tools available intelligently, and those who 294 00:17:56,380 --> 00:18:00,350 will double down on exactly the interpersonal skills that we 295 00:18:00,360 --> 00:18:04,130 talked about, empathy, communication, strategic 296 00:18:04,140 --> 00:18:06,900 judgment, and genuine relationship building. 297 00:18:06,910 --> 00:18:10,970 Those things cannot be automated, and their relative 298 00:18:10,980 --> 00:18:14,990 value, I believe, will only increase as everything else will 299 00:18:15,000 --> 00:18:19,750 become more efficient. And the second major shift I 300 00:18:19,760 --> 00:18:23,870 believe is diversification of the field in itself. 301 00:18:23,880 --> 00:18:27,850 So that means geography. Geography, really culturally, in 302 00:18:27,860 --> 00:18:31,180 terms of the subject matter, I believe you're yourself a very 303 00:18:31,190 --> 00:18:36,080 good example of how you can shape the trajectory of your 304 00:18:36,090 --> 00:18:39,260 career beyond one jurisdiction yourself. 305 00:18:39,270 --> 00:18:43,470 And this is also something that we see in arbitration a lot, in 306 00:18:43,530 --> 00:18:47,280 arbitrary institutions that are growing in parts of the world 307 00:18:47,290 --> 00:18:51,960 where the tradition is still very new, their new voices that 308 00:18:51,970 --> 00:18:57,440 are entering the conversation. And this is changing the system 309 00:18:57,450 --> 00:19:00,540 in and of itself. And I believe the opportunities 310 00:19:00,550 --> 00:19:05,620 here are for lawyers who combine sharp legal thinking, 311 00:19:05,630 --> 00:19:09,270 interpersonal skills, and also curiosity for the field. 312 00:19:09,360 --> 00:19:13,830 These opportunities are great and the combination is something 313 00:19:13,900 --> 00:19:17,710 that makes international arbitration really unique and 314 00:19:17,720 --> 00:19:21,580 brings a lot of people together. Amazing, I appreciate you 315 00:19:21,590 --> 00:19:24,310 sharing those. I think that's a very optimistic 316 00:19:24,320 --> 00:19:27,270 view to the future and that's the one that I subscribed to. 317 00:19:27,340 --> 00:19:30,090 I prefer I definitely prefer that that look. 318 00:19:30,100 --> 00:19:33,270 It's funny in in a few episodes ago, actually, I interviewed 319 00:19:33,280 --> 00:19:37,810 someone who was mentioning a US model where most of the partners 320 00:19:37,820 --> 00:19:41,430 would not have an associate or just one associate share to to 321 00:19:41,440 --> 00:19:46,960 many partners thinking that with AI now young associates can get 322 00:19:46,970 --> 00:19:49,470 that execution done much quicker. 323 00:19:49,540 --> 00:19:52,490 But I really, I really like what you said, you know, the idea of 324 00:19:52,500 --> 00:19:56,570 being our school being open and also really even this idea that 325 00:19:56,580 --> 00:19:59,470 you can qualify in multiple jurisdictions and, and 326 00:19:59,480 --> 00:20:03,590 understand different aspects of, of something that makes it a 327 00:20:03,600 --> 00:20:05,870 very exciting future to look forward to. 328 00:20:05,880 --> 00:20:09,250 So I'm excited for this next decade and maybe we'll come back 329 00:20:09,260 --> 00:20:12,310 again in 10 years and do a new podcast, you know, saying what 330 00:20:12,320 --> 00:20:15,000 we thought it was going to happen, what actually happened. 331 00:20:15,050 --> 00:20:17,590 But I really do appreciate you taking the time to be in the 332 00:20:17,600 --> 00:20:19,710 podcast today. And I appreciate you all tuning 333 00:20:19,720 --> 00:20:22,020 in and listening. Of course, thank you so much for 334 00:20:22,030 --> 00:20:23,570 your time. It was a very interesting 335 00:20:23,580 --> 00:20:24,510 conversation indeed.