1 00:00:05,560 --> 00:00:08,310 In this episode of Studying Law Around the World, I'm doing 2 00:00:08,320 --> 00:00:10,970 something a bit different. I recently had the chance to sit 3 00:00:10,980 --> 00:00:14,850 down with Susan Van Dyke on her podcast, Lawyer Launcher Behind 4 00:00:14,860 --> 00:00:17,690 the Bar, where we talked about building a legal career across 5 00:00:17,700 --> 00:00:21,110 borders, navigating the early years of practice, and what law 6 00:00:21,120 --> 00:00:24,250 school does not teach you today. I'm sharing part of that 7 00:00:24,260 --> 00:00:26,910 conversation with you. Susan brings a perspective that 8 00:00:26,920 --> 00:00:29,910 most law students and new lawyers rarely get access to. 9 00:00:29,920 --> 00:00:33,050 She has spent over 30 years working closely with law firms 10 00:00:33,060 --> 00:00:35,780 and their leadership teams, and she understands what firms 11 00:00:35,850 --> 00:00:40,190 insects from new hires and where many people struggle when they 12 00:00:40,200 --> 00:00:43,290 first start. Her podcast focuses on a simple 13 00:00:43,300 --> 00:00:45,350 idea. Law school teaches you the law, 14 00:00:45,420 --> 00:00:48,230 but success inside a law firm is a different skill set. 15 00:00:48,240 --> 00:00:50,310 If you're thinking. About your transition into 16 00:00:50,320 --> 00:00:52,330 practice or trying. To find your footing. 17 00:00:52,340 --> 00:00:55,290 In your first years as a lawyer. This conversation will give. 18 00:00:55,300 --> 00:00:59,010 You a more honest look at what that process really looks like. 19 00:00:59,080 --> 00:01:00,730 This is just part of the interview. 20 00:01:00,780 --> 00:01:04,030 To hear the full conversation, make sure to check out Lawyer 21 00:01:04,040 --> 00:01:12,490 Launcher behind the bar. Today I get to talk to Claudio 22 00:01:12,500 --> 00:01:16,630 Claus, who is a Brazilian trained lawyer now articling in 23 00:01:16,640 --> 00:01:20,650 Ontario, and he has experience across Brazil, the US and Canada 24 00:01:20,660 --> 00:01:22,330 in corporate and commercial real estate law. 25 00:01:22,380 --> 00:01:27,870 And he hosts a global legal podcast with over 120 episodes 26 00:01:27,880 --> 00:01:32,830 on legal careers worldwide. Beyond that, Claudio led A-75 27 00:01:32,840 --> 00:01:36,230 lawyer interview project for the University of Toronto Faculty of 28 00:01:36,240 --> 00:01:39,970 Laws 5th anniversary focused on advice for early career lawyers 29 00:01:39,980 --> 00:01:42,950 from alumni, later published as a booklet. 30 00:01:43,000 --> 00:01:45,050 Welcome to the Lawyer Launcher Podcast. 31 00:01:45,180 --> 00:01:47,310 Hello, friends. I'm your host, Susan Van Dyke. 32 00:01:47,510 --> 00:01:49,960 If you're a law student or a new lawyer eager to launch a 33 00:01:49,970 --> 00:01:52,080 successful career, you're in the right place. 34 00:01:52,090 --> 00:01:55,380 Drawing on more than 25 years of experience, I'll demystify the 35 00:01:55,390 --> 00:01:58,480 business of law and help you understand just what it takes to 36 00:01:58,490 --> 00:02:00,620 succeed. We'll empower you, help build 37 00:02:00,630 --> 00:02:03,950 confidence, and reduce anxiety. Our experts will share tips and 38 00:02:03,960 --> 00:02:06,200 advice, and I can't wait for you to hear from them. 39 00:02:06,250 --> 00:02:08,460 Now let's dive in. Claudio, welcome. 40 00:02:08,470 --> 00:02:09,900 Thank you so much for joining me. 41 00:02:09,910 --> 00:02:12,140 I appreciate it. I'm very happy to be here, 42 00:02:12,150 --> 00:02:14,860 excited for our conversation. I am as well now. 43 00:02:14,870 --> 00:02:22,760 I first came upon you when you were meeting with 75 grads on 44 00:02:22,770 --> 00:02:24,320 this journey. It must have been a couple of 45 00:02:24,330 --> 00:02:25,960 years ago if I got that right. Yes. 46 00:02:25,970 --> 00:02:28,980 It it actually just completed a year since I finished the 47 00:02:28,990 --> 00:02:31,380 project. So I started in 2024 and 48 00:02:31,390 --> 00:02:34,590 finished it up in 2025 must. Have been 2020 saw you. 49 00:02:34,600 --> 00:02:36,320 I don't know if it's on LinkedIn or where it was. 50 00:02:36,330 --> 00:02:39,320 I thought that is the coolest thing and now I get to talk to 51 00:02:39,330 --> 00:02:41,100 you. So I'm I'm super LED about 52 00:02:41,110 --> 00:02:43,300 chatting with you and learning all about kind of behind the 53 00:02:43,310 --> 00:02:47,600 scenes and and what what inspired you to start that 54 00:02:47,610 --> 00:02:51,560 podcast or that project rather, because it wasn't a podcast 55 00:02:51,570 --> 00:02:54,320 really, was it? It was an interview that you 56 00:02:54,370 --> 00:02:57,760 later made into a booklet. Tell me what time what started 57 00:02:57,770 --> 00:03:01,820 the inspiration for that 75 interview or networking goal? 58 00:03:01,890 --> 00:03:03,400 Tell tell us about. Absolutely. 59 00:03:03,410 --> 00:03:06,280 So there were a few things going on in my mind at the same time, 60 00:03:06,290 --> 00:03:08,640 right. So I was starting my Masters of 61 00:03:08,650 --> 00:03:13,460 Laws at the University of Toronto and I had been semi act 62 00:03:13,470 --> 00:03:15,960 somewhat active on LinkedIn for a couple of years now. 63 00:03:15,970 --> 00:03:18,880 And something that I had noticed with quite a few of the American 64 00:03:18,890 --> 00:03:23,060 JD students that I had connected over the years is that there was 65 00:03:23,110 --> 00:03:26,860 some kind of a challenge for you to meet with 100 lawyers over 66 00:03:26,870 --> 00:03:30,320 your three years of law school. So people would recommend doing 67 00:03:30,330 --> 00:03:33,510 that so that you would have a better idea of what you want do 68 00:03:33,560 --> 00:03:36,310 what kind of law. You know, all these choices 69 00:03:36,320 --> 00:03:40,050 would really be more based on these conversations than just on 70 00:03:40,220 --> 00:03:42,310 the subject matter you studied at school. 71 00:03:42,320 --> 00:03:45,090 Because we could all agree that you know, you can really like 72 00:03:45,100 --> 00:03:48,280 your contracts class or your constitutional law class, but 73 00:03:48,290 --> 00:03:51,710 once you start actually practicing something, that area 74 00:03:51,720 --> 00:03:53,230 of law might look very different. 75 00:03:53,300 --> 00:03:56,470 So I had learned about that experience and I was semi active 76 00:03:56,480 --> 00:03:58,350 on LinkedIn. So all of these things were kind 77 00:03:58,360 --> 00:04:01,170 of cooking together. I also knew that the University 78 00:04:01,180 --> 00:04:03,530 of Toronto, specifically the Faculty of Law, had an 79 00:04:03,540 --> 00:04:07,270 incredible alumni base and many of them were very willing to to 80 00:04:07,280 --> 00:04:09,490 chat. So I was trying to see, you 81 00:04:09,500 --> 00:04:12,700 know, how I could make a really interesting learning experience, 82 00:04:12,710 --> 00:04:16,519 how I could tap into that alumni network, but also how I could 83 00:04:16,529 --> 00:04:19,990 make something interesting to celebrate the university's 84 00:04:20,000 --> 00:04:22,580 anniversary. So it was the 5th anniversary. 85 00:04:22,590 --> 00:04:25,820 I thought it was quite, you know, an important year in an 86 00:04:25,830 --> 00:04:27,580 exciting one to be a student there. 87 00:04:27,630 --> 00:04:30,790 So I thought I would kind of put all of these things together and 88 00:04:30,800 --> 00:04:34,260 they ended up, you know, interviewing 75 of the Faculty 89 00:04:34,270 --> 00:04:37,890 of Laws alumni to ask then, you know, what kind of advice would 90 00:04:37,900 --> 00:04:41,780 you give to the next generation of lawyer for the next 75 years 91 00:04:42,090 --> 00:04:44,620 of both the screw and and that is. 92 00:04:44,630 --> 00:04:48,920 Upcoming Is there one single greatest learning from talking 93 00:04:48,930 --> 00:04:52,160 to 75 alumni from the University of Toronto? 94 00:04:52,170 --> 00:04:55,460 Yeah, so, so I definitely learned a lot of things, but I 95 00:04:55,470 --> 00:04:58,920 think that you main topics definitely kept showing up again 96 00:04:58,930 --> 00:05:01,440 and again. And I think that one of them is 97 00:05:01,450 --> 00:05:05,800 that maximum that there's no single way to to have a legal 98 00:05:05,810 --> 00:05:08,340 career, there's no single path to success. 99 00:05:08,390 --> 00:05:11,560 So I talked with people who were, you know, on the bench 100 00:05:11,610 --> 00:05:14,180 right as judges. I talked with people who were 101 00:05:14,190 --> 00:05:17,200 working in another country, talked with people with, you can 102 00:05:17,210 --> 00:05:20,250 imagine how many different areas, you know, from corporate 103 00:05:20,260 --> 00:05:23,990 practice your solo to working in a not-for-profit. 104 00:05:24,000 --> 00:05:27,070 So very, very many different kinds of lawyers. 105 00:05:27,080 --> 00:05:29,810 And they all basically said something similar. 106 00:05:29,820 --> 00:05:33,510 They were like when I started my career, I had no idea this is 107 00:05:33,520 --> 00:05:37,050 where I was going to land. I just really stage, you know, 108 00:05:37,060 --> 00:05:41,270 open to the possibilities And it just, you know, things kept on 109 00:05:41,280 --> 00:05:44,570 happening and I kept pursuing my interests and I got you where I 110 00:05:44,580 --> 00:05:46,200 am. And I think that that was one of 111 00:05:46,210 --> 00:05:49,790 the main points. And then number 2 was definitely 112 00:05:49,840 --> 00:05:53,210 many of the lawyers would say again and again, networking, 113 00:05:53,280 --> 00:05:55,570 keep on networking throughout your career. 114 00:05:55,640 --> 00:05:58,220 Don't stop, you know, meeting with your colleagues from law 115 00:05:58,230 --> 00:06:00,360 school. Don't stop keeping in touch with 116 00:06:00,370 --> 00:06:02,500 people that you've met throughout your professional 117 00:06:02,510 --> 00:06:03,890 life. You know, sometimes they'll 118 00:06:03,900 --> 00:06:05,880 bring your clients, but sometimes they would just be a 119 00:06:05,890 --> 00:06:09,440 sounding board and someone that you can, you know, go to when 120 00:06:09,450 --> 00:06:12,280 you find a professional dilemma or when you want to be 121 00:06:12,290 --> 00:06:16,040 introduced to someone who could be either a client or somebody 122 00:06:16,050 --> 00:06:18,550 who could open the doors for another professional 123 00:06:18,560 --> 00:06:21,040 opportunity. So I think that those are the 124 00:06:21,050 --> 00:06:24,140 two things that repeated over and over again and that I 125 00:06:24,150 --> 00:06:27,700 definitely, you know, I'm trying my best to keep in mind as I 126 00:06:27,710 --> 00:06:29,690 move forward. With that and that that makes a 127 00:06:29,700 --> 00:06:31,660 lot of sense. You know, with the networking, 128 00:06:31,740 --> 00:06:34,500 you just never know where it's going to take you. 129 00:06:34,510 --> 00:06:36,920 You can never presuppose where it's going to take you. 130 00:06:36,990 --> 00:06:39,500 People are so interesting and people themselves and 131 00:06:39,570 --> 00:06:43,150 interesting dynamic environments that you know might intersect 132 00:06:43,160 --> 00:06:44,860 with where you are five years from now. 133 00:06:44,870 --> 00:06:47,450 You just you just never know. I want to come back to 134 00:06:47,510 --> 00:06:49,640 networking because I think that's a really important topic, 135 00:06:49,650 --> 00:06:52,060 especially for the students listening and the audience that 136 00:06:52,070 --> 00:06:53,700 I have. I think that's something that it 137 00:06:53,710 --> 00:06:55,260 can be challenging for a lot of people. 138 00:06:55,270 --> 00:06:58,200 Let let me come back to that though, and I want to just pivot 139 00:06:58,210 --> 00:07:00,820 for a second and talk to you a little bit about a decision that 140 00:07:00,830 --> 00:07:05,900 you made to move jurisdictions, which sounds exciting on one 141 00:07:05,910 --> 00:07:10,290 level, but I imagine it was incredibly difficult on another 142 00:07:10,300 --> 00:07:11,410 level. And you've done it a couple of 143 00:07:11,420 --> 00:07:13,790 times. And I wanted to ask you, you 144 00:07:13,800 --> 00:07:17,070 know, was there a moment when you thought this is going to be 145 00:07:17,080 --> 00:07:19,570 harder than I expected? It's always interesting. 146 00:07:19,580 --> 00:07:23,390 I feel like when you are on one side of a problem, you always 147 00:07:23,400 --> 00:07:26,390 have a hard time, you know, imagining the the magnitude of 148 00:07:26,400 --> 00:07:28,470 it. Sometimes you are too close to 149 00:07:28,480 --> 00:07:30,110 the problem that you see too big. 150 00:07:30,120 --> 00:07:33,310 Sometimes you're too far away and you underestimate it. 151 00:07:33,400 --> 00:07:36,150 So I think that there was definitely different phases 152 00:07:36,160 --> 00:07:39,960 through through navigating it. And now that I'm basically on 153 00:07:39,970 --> 00:07:43,630 the other side, I'm almost done with my articling and and ready 154 00:07:43,640 --> 00:07:46,200 to be called the bar in Ontario, you know, we've bought. 155 00:07:46,210 --> 00:07:47,700 Graduations. Thank you. 156 00:07:47,770 --> 00:07:53,000 It's it's definitely a time to to kind of look back and see and 157 00:07:53,010 --> 00:07:56,080 understand all that happened in this period, right? 158 00:07:56,090 --> 00:07:59,340 It's such, it's such an intense period that I just went through 159 00:07:59,350 --> 00:08:02,260 basically doing a masters, writing the bar exams, doing 160 00:08:02,270 --> 00:08:05,020 articling, all of that somewhat at the same time. 161 00:08:05,030 --> 00:08:08,520 So it was quite, quite intense. And I think there were moments 162 00:08:08,530 --> 00:08:11,620 that I thought, well, this is just taking a lot of time. 163 00:08:11,630 --> 00:08:14,560 And honestly, it was a process of about two years. 164 00:08:14,570 --> 00:08:18,060 So it's not even that long, but when you're living through it, 165 00:08:18,070 --> 00:08:19,650 right? It just feels like it's taking 166 00:08:19,740 --> 00:08:22,050 so long. And then at times they would 167 00:08:22,060 --> 00:08:25,590 have the positive attitude of thinking, man, I'm going to 168 00:08:25,600 --> 00:08:29,370 probably be, you know, healthy and well and working until I'm 169 00:08:29,420 --> 00:08:32,070 80 years old. So, you know, two years is not a 170 00:08:32,080 --> 00:08:34,250 big deal. So he definitely, you know, 171 00:08:34,309 --> 00:08:38,250 went, I, I went through waves of being very excited with the 172 00:08:38,260 --> 00:08:42,309 process and waves of being maybe a little bit discouraged and, 173 00:08:42,320 --> 00:08:45,470 you know, tired of, you know, either studying for the bar 174 00:08:45,480 --> 00:08:48,470 exams or just having long hours that day. 175 00:08:48,480 --> 00:08:52,130 But it was just always like part of the process and, and happily 176 00:08:52,140 --> 00:08:54,570 I was because of all this conversations and the 177 00:08:54,580 --> 00:08:57,600 connection, I was pretty well formed of what was going to 178 00:08:57,610 --> 00:09:01,340 happen, what were the next steps that I was going to have 179 00:09:01,350 --> 00:09:03,880 afterwards. So I wasn't in a way like 180 00:09:03,890 --> 00:09:07,700 blindsided by any of the, the steps that I would have to do. 181 00:09:07,750 --> 00:09:11,240 So I think that that helped me a lot in the sense that I, I had 182 00:09:11,250 --> 00:09:13,400 all the information. I knew what would happen. 183 00:09:13,410 --> 00:09:15,630 I had kind of like a a clear timeline. 184 00:09:15,640 --> 00:09:19,070 Even intended path, didn't you? You had to take us. 185 00:09:19,080 --> 00:09:22,190 So you started in Brazil. You, you, you were born and 186 00:09:22,200 --> 00:09:25,810 raised in Brazil, right? And then from there, take us 187 00:09:25,820 --> 00:09:30,700 through quickly your journey. Well, I'll try to make it short 188 00:09:30,710 --> 00:09:32,800 here. So basically studied in Brazil, 189 00:09:32,810 --> 00:09:35,690 worked there. And Justin about high school, 190 00:09:35,700 --> 00:09:39,180 my, my second year of high school, I had the opportunity to 191 00:09:39,240 --> 00:09:42,080 in Brazil, you could do like a trade during high school. 192 00:09:42,140 --> 00:09:45,710 So I did it during my second year of high school. 193 00:09:45,760 --> 00:09:49,310 And it was, it was more related to software to sorry, so to 194 00:09:49,320 --> 00:09:51,750 hardware to actually the pieces of the computer putting it 195 00:09:51,760 --> 00:09:54,890 together, because I had done that on my third year of high 196 00:09:54,900 --> 00:09:57,130 school. My mom worked at the real estate 197 00:09:57,140 --> 00:10:00,970 registry office or the Land Registry office like we have 198 00:10:01,060 --> 00:10:04,050 across Canada as well. And the head of that Land 199 00:10:04,060 --> 00:10:07,530 Registry office needed somebody to do some IT work, to move some 200 00:10:07,540 --> 00:10:08,910 computers around and all of that. 201 00:10:08,920 --> 00:10:11,530 And I had the chance to go and work at the Land Registry 202 00:10:11,540 --> 00:10:13,410 office. It so happened that a lot of the 203 00:10:13,420 --> 00:10:15,170 people working there were lawyers. 204 00:10:15,180 --> 00:10:19,710 So they definitely influenced me to to keep on studying law. 205 00:10:19,760 --> 00:10:23,110 I wasn't quite sure he actually had considered environmental 206 00:10:23,120 --> 00:10:26,470 engineering as one of the undergrads that I wanted to take 207 00:10:26,540 --> 00:10:29,730 because I had a cousin and that I really admired and that's what 208 00:10:29,740 --> 00:10:32,150 she studied. But I ended up choosing law 209 00:10:32,160 --> 00:10:34,390 school. And in Brazil, law school is a 210 00:10:34,400 --> 00:10:36,910 bachelor's degree. With all of that in context, I 211 00:10:36,920 --> 00:10:39,770 have the opportunity to go to the US for two years for 212 00:10:39,780 --> 00:10:42,540 volunteer work. I go to Arizona, I send this 213 00:10:42,550 --> 00:10:45,330 awesome time, come back home, speak much better English at 214 00:10:45,340 --> 00:10:46,970 this point. And I want you to have a very 215 00:10:46,980 --> 00:10:50,120 international career. So I go back to law school that 216 00:10:50,130 --> 00:10:53,530 I had started, talk to the Dean of law and I ask, how can I make 217 00:10:53,540 --> 00:10:55,640 my career as international as possible? 218 00:10:55,730 --> 00:10:58,600 And she tells me you should probably change professions. 219 00:10:58,610 --> 00:11:00,940 If you want to do anything international, don't, don't 220 00:11:00,950 --> 00:11:04,020 stick with law. And, you know, it was the best 221 00:11:04,030 --> 00:11:06,940 information she had at the time. And, and the world is constantly 222 00:11:06,950 --> 00:11:09,500 changing and being more connected and opportunities for 223 00:11:09,510 --> 00:11:10,980 lawyers are showing up more and more. 224 00:11:10,990 --> 00:11:14,880 But I was quite, you know, let down by that, by what she said. 225 00:11:14,890 --> 00:11:17,600 So I ended up going home, parents were like, OK, you can't 226 00:11:17,610 --> 00:11:20,460 drop off the auto law school. But I found found out that I 227 00:11:20,470 --> 00:11:24,380 could actually add another subject of study to my studies. 228 00:11:24,390 --> 00:11:27,520 So I started doing an undergraduate international 229 00:11:27,530 --> 00:11:30,290 relations at the same time. So I would take both courses. 230 00:11:30,300 --> 00:11:33,940 And with all of that happening at the same time, COVID showed 231 00:11:33,950 --> 00:11:37,300 up and the world shut and, and all that, you know, happened. 232 00:11:37,310 --> 00:11:40,120 But it gave me the opportunity to connect with a lot, a lot of 233 00:11:40,130 --> 00:11:43,080 lawyers online, a lot of lawyers who had careers that were 234 00:11:43,090 --> 00:11:46,160 interesting to me that spanned through different countries. 235 00:11:46,170 --> 00:11:48,330 And that's how I started my podcast. 236 00:11:48,340 --> 00:11:51,830 So we gave me a lot of inspiration on international 237 00:11:51,910 --> 00:11:56,170 girls being possible during this time, lots of opportunities to 238 00:11:56,180 --> 00:11:58,630 interact with different universities and all of that. 239 00:11:58,680 --> 00:12:01,790 Basically all of these things kept happening. 240 00:12:01,800 --> 00:12:05,180 And I had the chance to work with a judge in the US in 2020. 241 00:12:05,400 --> 00:12:08,870 And then by the end of 20, we came to Canada as a researcher. 242 00:12:08,920 --> 00:12:12,730 I was researching specifically regulated fields, specifically 243 00:12:12,740 --> 00:12:16,450 on water and sanitation. So I was at Osgood Hall at York 244 00:12:16,460 --> 00:12:20,270 University here in Toronto, and that's the time where I'm at. 245 00:12:20,560 --> 00:12:24,570 The person who's now my wife, it's hadn't planned to move 246 00:12:24,580 --> 00:12:28,380 careers to Canada specifically, but I ended up coming here to 247 00:12:28,390 --> 00:12:33,320 study and left to Canada. You know, we've relationship, I 248 00:12:33,330 --> 00:12:37,300 was there clerking for a judge. So my wife joined me in Brazil. 249 00:12:37,310 --> 00:12:39,980 So we lived there together for a year and then decided to come 250 00:12:39,990 --> 00:12:41,940 back to Canada and continue my legal career. 251 00:12:41,950 --> 00:12:43,600 Here I'm going to interrupt really quickly. 252 00:12:43,610 --> 00:12:45,690 Don't forget to subscribe. Don't forget to hit the 253 00:12:45,700 --> 00:12:47,350 subscribe button. And while you're at it. 254 00:12:47,360 --> 00:12:49,280 Why don't you shoot this episode to somebody? 255 00:12:49,290 --> 00:12:50,640 Who could use it? Just send it. 256 00:12:50,650 --> 00:12:53,430 Off send it off to two or three people let them know that you're 257 00:12:53,440 --> 00:12:55,280 thinking of them and and you thought of them as you were 258 00:12:55,290 --> 00:12:57,480 listening to this episode because something in here is 259 00:12:57,490 --> 00:13:00,880 relevant for them and you're going to do them a huge favor by 260 00:13:00,890 --> 00:13:02,910 sharing this episode with them so while you're. 261 00:13:02,920 --> 00:13:05,060 Thinking of it right now while I'm interrupting. 262 00:13:05,070 --> 00:13:08,590 This episode shoot them that share button and and get it into 263 00:13:08,600 --> 00:13:11,450 somebody else's hands so they get help that they need as well. 264 00:13:11,520 --> 00:13:13,640 Thank you. What's interesting about, I 265 00:13:13,650 --> 00:13:15,720 mean, there's so many interesting pieces about your 266 00:13:15,730 --> 00:13:18,410 story, Is it you were intentional from quite an early 267 00:13:18,420 --> 00:13:21,410 stage that you wanted to have this international experience? 268 00:13:21,480 --> 00:13:23,750 That's what kind of rises to the surface for me. 269 00:13:23,760 --> 00:13:25,850 That's quite interesting. Where did that come from? 270 00:13:25,860 --> 00:13:28,690 Yeah, that's a great question. I don't know if I can pinpoint 271 00:13:28,700 --> 00:13:30,510 it exactly. I don't know if you were, you 272 00:13:30,520 --> 00:13:34,830 know, the movies when I grew up. What is specifically made me 273 00:13:34,840 --> 00:13:37,750 really want you to do something international, but it was really 274 00:13:37,760 --> 00:13:41,180 a desire that I had from early on, most studying English, 275 00:13:41,190 --> 00:13:44,220 seeing all the possibilities that that could happen for your 276 00:13:44,230 --> 00:13:47,430 career, for your life. I just really knew that, you 277 00:13:47,440 --> 00:13:50,130 know, the world was a lot bigger than my city, Claudio. 278 00:13:50,900 --> 00:13:55,710 You went from Brazil to was Arizona to Toronto, met your 279 00:13:55,720 --> 00:13:59,610 wife all the way back to Brazil, learning languages as well, 280 00:13:59,620 --> 00:14:02,690 learning English along the way and then two degrees. 281 00:14:02,760 --> 00:14:05,330 I mean, it's just, it's not for the faint of heart your journey, 282 00:14:05,340 --> 00:14:07,380 that's for sure. One, it was a fun one. 283 00:14:07,450 --> 00:14:09,830 And then of course, I give you kind of the the summarized 284 00:14:09,840 --> 00:14:13,230 version here, because probably spend a whole hour with me 285 00:14:13,240 --> 00:14:15,450 telling you all the details. Yes, yes. 286 00:14:15,540 --> 00:14:19,660 And so now this spring, you are you're articling now and you are 287 00:14:19,670 --> 00:14:21,910 called to the bar this spring. That is correct, yes. 288 00:14:21,920 --> 00:14:24,630 So just in, in the summer, in June, that's when I will be 289 00:14:24,640 --> 00:14:26,430 called to the bar. Official congratulations. 290 00:14:26,440 --> 00:14:28,450 What a journey. So somebody was sitting in law 291 00:14:28,460 --> 00:14:32,790 school right now thinking I have to follow a very specific path 292 00:14:32,860 --> 00:14:37,410 and I'm on this path and I've it's been carved out for me and 293 00:14:37,420 --> 00:14:39,090 I guess I'm just going to go on this path. 294 00:14:39,100 --> 00:14:41,620 What would you say to them? Yeah, I think there is. 295 00:14:41,680 --> 00:14:44,600 I have this advantage of having, you know, the compound knowledge 296 00:14:44,610 --> 00:14:47,640 of, of lots of people that I interviewed in my podcast and 297 00:14:47,650 --> 00:14:52,100 also in this UFT law project and, and then my personal 298 00:14:52,270 --> 00:14:55,200 experience as well, right. So drawing from both of these 299 00:14:55,210 --> 00:14:58,590 experiences together, I would, I would say that, you know, sure, 300 00:14:58,600 --> 00:15:01,740 you know, go with the path, see if it makes you happy, 301 00:15:01,790 --> 00:15:04,540 reevaluated. See if it, you know, it's, if it 302 00:15:04,550 --> 00:15:08,040 aligns well with your values and if that makes sense to you, if 303 00:15:08,050 --> 00:15:10,660 it's making you happy, if it aligns with your values, that's 304 00:15:10,670 --> 00:15:12,200 perfect. Keep on keeping on. 305 00:15:12,270 --> 00:15:15,400 If at any point you realize that it doesn't align anymore with 306 00:15:15,410 --> 00:15:18,650 the person you want to be, with your values, with what you have 307 00:15:18,720 --> 00:15:21,980 fire for your life, you can start preparing a transition. 308 00:15:22,090 --> 00:15:24,720 And it's incredible what you can do with a law degree. 309 00:15:24,730 --> 00:15:27,530 There's so much that can be done and keep on building your 310 00:15:27,540 --> 00:15:31,860 network, keep on working hard and really developing those 311 00:15:31,870 --> 00:15:35,580 skills that you can where you are and prepare for that 312 00:15:35,590 --> 00:15:38,240 transition. You made an interesting comment 313 00:15:38,250 --> 00:15:41,160 earlier about, you know, I'm currently in this time right 314 00:15:41,170 --> 00:15:42,390 now. It's only going to be a couple 315 00:15:42,400 --> 00:15:43,720 more years. And yes, it's hard. 316 00:15:43,730 --> 00:15:47,220 Yes, I'm working through it and I'm tired and it's been quite a 317 00:15:47,230 --> 00:15:49,120 journey. But I plan to practice until I'm 318 00:15:49,130 --> 00:15:51,440 80. So this is just two years out of 319 00:15:51,450 --> 00:15:54,240 my careers life span. And I think that's a really 320 00:15:54,250 --> 00:15:57,770 interesting respective Claudio because I've worked with I, I 321 00:15:57,780 --> 00:16:00,530 worked with a fellow who worked into his eyes. 322 00:16:00,540 --> 00:16:04,120 And this is 30 years ago, he worked into his 80s and I think 323 00:16:04,130 --> 00:16:06,510 his family, you know, eventually forced him to retire. 324 00:16:06,520 --> 00:16:09,650 I've worked with others that are well, you know, well into their 325 00:16:09,660 --> 00:16:12,130 late 70s. It just, it seems it doesn't 326 00:16:12,140 --> 00:16:14,450 seem abnormal anymore. And people and as long as people 327 00:16:14,460 --> 00:16:16,930 can choose. So I love the point of you, you 328 00:16:16,940 --> 00:16:18,530 get to choose the path that you're on. 329 00:16:18,540 --> 00:16:20,350 And don't be afraid to take risks, right? 330 00:16:20,360 --> 00:16:23,630 Don't feel too rigid and because you can always re align yourself 331 00:16:23,640 --> 00:16:26,590 on a new path if it's not fulfilling you anymore, right? 332 00:16:26,600 --> 00:16:30,000 Absolutely, Absolutely any step of your career, there is the 333 00:16:30,010 --> 00:16:32,920 opportunity to move around. You're, you're never kind of 334 00:16:32,930 --> 00:16:36,220 bound by your, by your choices. And it's, it's quite 335 00:16:36,230 --> 00:16:38,810 interesting, you know, at, at points you might think, you 336 00:16:38,820 --> 00:16:41,040 know, there's all this sunk cost. 337 00:16:41,110 --> 00:16:45,780 I, I spent so much time learning or studying these, but really 338 00:16:45,790 --> 00:16:48,200 most skills are very transferable. 339 00:16:48,210 --> 00:16:51,090 So even if you don't want to continue in a legal role, if you 340 00:16:51,100 --> 00:16:54,300 want to go, you know, in a marketing role or, you know, in 341 00:16:54,310 --> 00:16:57,840 a talent role, there's always a lot of skills that you can 342 00:16:57,850 --> 00:17:01,430 transfer from the legal field. So there's definitely a lot of 343 00:17:01,440 --> 00:17:04,230 things you'll learn and it might be a step, you know, learning 344 00:17:04,240 --> 00:17:09,030 curve, but absolutely there is a lot that you can draw from your 345 00:17:09,040 --> 00:17:12,089 legal career if you ever clinch and move away. 346 00:17:12,099 --> 00:17:14,990 And even within the legal field, I mean, of course, there's so 347 00:17:15,000 --> 00:17:17,190 many fields you can take a law degree, but within the legal 348 00:17:17,200 --> 00:17:20,569 field, aside from practicing law, there's a lot of lawyers 349 00:17:20,579 --> 00:17:22,390 that are doing all kinds of different things. 350 00:17:22,530 --> 00:17:24,839 They're working, as you said, in marketing, business development. 351 00:17:24,880 --> 00:17:27,650 They're also certainly working in talent and professional 352 00:17:27,660 --> 00:17:30,560 development. That's an excellent space for 353 00:17:30,600 --> 00:17:32,450 for a lawyer and and many other areas. 354 00:17:32,460 --> 00:17:36,630 So, you know, really is open to what you want to make your 355 00:17:36,640 --> 00:17:38,830 career look like. So I want to you, we were 356 00:17:38,840 --> 00:17:42,290 talking about networking earlier and I want it, you know, you 357 00:17:42,360 --> 00:17:46,130 Claudio or so exceptionally good at networking and building 358 00:17:46,140 --> 00:17:48,090 relationships. And I've seen it just in our 359 00:17:48,100 --> 00:17:49,870 interactions prior to this podcast. 360 00:17:49,920 --> 00:17:53,070 You clearly see it on LinkedIn. You clearly see it in your 361 00:17:53,080 --> 00:17:55,570 podcasts and how you draw people out. 362 00:17:55,580 --> 00:17:57,610 And you're such a great communicator and good 363 00:17:57,620 --> 00:18:00,270 communication skills as part of what networking is certainly, 364 00:18:00,340 --> 00:18:03,210 and this is so critically important for junior lawyers, 365 00:18:03,220 --> 00:18:05,810 the networking skills and communication skills, of course, 366 00:18:05,820 --> 00:18:08,930 but most people, and you kind of touched on it earlier, but most 367 00:18:08,940 --> 00:18:12,990 new lawyers or law students, they, they wait too long to 368 00:18:13,000 --> 00:18:15,300 start networking. I get the sense that you feel 369 00:18:15,310 --> 00:18:18,660 like a switch has to go off and they need to get permission or 370 00:18:18,670 --> 00:18:22,000 maybe they have imposter syndrome or they're waiting for 371 00:18:22,010 --> 00:18:25,200 the recruitment season to start or feel like they have 372 00:18:25,250 --> 00:18:27,520 sufficient time to start networking. 373 00:18:27,590 --> 00:18:29,270 You didn't do any of those things. 374 00:18:29,280 --> 00:18:32,700 You just got on with it. You seemed to just naturally, 375 00:18:32,760 --> 00:18:35,440 even with English as a second language, even though you, you 376 00:18:35,450 --> 00:18:38,370 maybe you were more proficient at the time, not such a new 377 00:18:38,380 --> 00:18:41,000 English language speaker, but you just got on with it. 378 00:18:41,010 --> 00:18:43,900 Tell us, did that take courage? Tell us a little bit about that. 379 00:18:44,090 --> 00:18:45,720 I. Think there was a lot to be 380 00:18:45,730 --> 00:18:48,650 considered right. So I would definitely, I would 381 00:18:48,660 --> 00:18:52,220 definitely say that I first needed no more information. 382 00:18:52,410 --> 00:18:54,960 I definitely wanted to understand better the 383 00:18:54,970 --> 00:18:56,800 possibilities and career outcomes. 384 00:18:56,810 --> 00:19:00,300 So I think that all of those things together motivated me a 385 00:19:00,310 --> 00:19:02,820 lot. When I talk with my peers, with 386 00:19:02,830 --> 00:19:05,760 some of the law students that studied with me that they don't 387 00:19:05,850 --> 00:19:08,600 either personally like networking or they're work 388 00:19:08,610 --> 00:19:11,540 environments, they feel like it's not really seeing as 389 00:19:11,550 --> 00:19:13,180 positive. If you're talking to other 390 00:19:13,190 --> 00:19:16,400 lawyers, they might give the the bad impression that you're 391 00:19:16,450 --> 00:19:20,060 maybe, you know, trying to find another job or there's kind of 392 00:19:20,070 --> 00:19:22,980 like a bad stigma in the workplace that they're placed 393 00:19:22,990 --> 00:19:24,630 in. So it really depends on where 394 00:19:24,640 --> 00:19:27,210 you are and what kinds of incentives you would have to do 395 00:19:27,220 --> 00:19:29,520 that. I, I feel very fortunate to have 396 00:19:29,530 --> 00:19:33,620 these podcast roject now for over 5 years because carrying 397 00:19:33,630 --> 00:19:37,420 these over from law school doesn't carry any of these bad 398 00:19:37,430 --> 00:19:40,030 baggage. I feel like if even if I go to, 399 00:19:40,200 --> 00:19:44,130 you know, a firm that doesn't maybe see as much of the value 400 00:19:44,260 --> 00:19:47,430 as talking to, you know, fellow people in the profession, which 401 00:19:47,440 --> 00:19:50,530 I find that very unlikely. I do have, you know, a person 402 00:19:50,740 --> 00:19:53,880 personally good reason to do that, a perfectly reasonable 403 00:19:53,890 --> 00:19:56,470 reason to continue on talking with lawyers. 404 00:19:56,520 --> 00:20:00,390 But I really more and more I see a profession that is united in 405 00:20:00,400 --> 00:20:02,890 in many ways that does so have these. 406 00:20:02,970 --> 00:20:06,950 Desire to pay forward so it's so common for lawyers to, you know, 407 00:20:06,960 --> 00:20:11,030 even in their busy schedules to schedule coffee chats, virtual 408 00:20:11,040 --> 00:20:14,010 coffee chats, lunches with other law students, you know, 409 00:20:14,020 --> 00:20:16,420 especially in this first years of the profession. 410 00:20:16,480 --> 00:20:20,350 So I see a lot of very big sense of wanting to pay back all of 411 00:20:20,360 --> 00:20:24,170 the generosity that they were offered and afforded when they 412 00:20:24,180 --> 00:20:26,630 were in that position. And especially when you're 413 00:20:26,640 --> 00:20:28,970 reaching out to, you know, fellow articling students, 414 00:20:28,980 --> 00:20:32,250 first, second, even third year associates that, you know, very 415 00:20:32,260 --> 00:20:35,250 recently went through the recruitment process and still 416 00:20:35,260 --> 00:20:38,610 kind of remember the filling, I really find very, you know, 417 00:20:38,620 --> 00:20:41,810 welcoming messages from those that are navigating, you know, 418 00:20:41,820 --> 00:20:43,950 just a few steps. Ahead, I think that's so true 419 00:20:43,960 --> 00:20:45,310 and that's been my experience as well. 420 00:20:45,320 --> 00:20:48,370 Lawyers are so very generous and they mean to be generous. 421 00:20:48,380 --> 00:20:50,870 And I think if ever a student were to reach out to somebody 422 00:20:50,880 --> 00:20:54,890 and they weren't granted time, probably it's a matter of they 423 00:20:54,900 --> 00:20:58,230 were just too busy in that moment and to try again. 424 00:20:58,240 --> 00:21:01,670 But I really believe, you know, truly like 95% of the lawyers 425 00:21:01,680 --> 00:21:05,450 that I know mean to be generous and would like to, you know, 426 00:21:05,520 --> 00:21:08,230 give the gift of time to a student or a junior, but it's 427 00:21:08,240 --> 00:21:10,990 just a matter of timing. And I really believe that that 428 00:21:11,000 --> 00:21:12,870 to be true. So did was there ever a point 429 00:21:12,880 --> 00:21:15,870 where you felt and comfortable reaching out to people or 430 00:21:15,880 --> 00:21:18,470 putting yourself out there? Did you, you know, we talked 431 00:21:18,480 --> 00:21:21,570 about imposter syndrome earlier. Did you ever have imposter 432 00:21:21,580 --> 00:21:24,190 syndrome? Yeah, I will be quite honest, 433 00:21:24,200 --> 00:21:27,130 you know, in all of these interactions, I feel like 434 00:21:27,140 --> 00:21:30,740 there's always people that you automatically match with or, or 435 00:21:30,750 --> 00:21:32,920 people that you really, you know, have a good connection 436 00:21:32,930 --> 00:21:36,430 that you somehow automatically feel good about talking to them. 437 00:21:36,480 --> 00:21:40,590 It, it certainly has happened more than once where I went to 438 00:21:40,600 --> 00:21:42,970 talk with someone and they and they, I don't know if it was 439 00:21:42,980 --> 00:21:46,080 their body language or maybe just the way I felt about them 440 00:21:46,090 --> 00:21:49,270 and they didn't mean to make this impression, but they 441 00:21:49,280 --> 00:21:51,910 definitely made me feel like I was wasting their time. 442 00:21:51,980 --> 00:21:55,660 You know, in a way, it made me, you know, be better prepared for 443 00:21:55,670 --> 00:21:58,850 future engagements so I would know how to kind of get out of 444 00:21:58,860 --> 00:22:01,180 that weird, uncomfortable situation. 445 00:22:01,240 --> 00:22:05,170 But it also made me realize that, you know, there's so many 446 00:22:05,180 --> 00:22:08,430 personalities, so many kinds of lawyers and people in this 447 00:22:08,440 --> 00:22:10,840 profession. And it's really a gift that I 448 00:22:10,850 --> 00:22:13,320 can choose who I want to associate with, right? 449 00:22:13,330 --> 00:22:15,920 So it's always nice to know that there's people who have 450 00:22:15,930 --> 00:22:18,220 different personalities, they have different styles of 451 00:22:18,230 --> 00:22:20,830 communication. And sometimes their style is 452 00:22:20,840 --> 00:22:24,000 not, you know, the warm, fuzzy, happy smiles. 453 00:22:24,010 --> 00:22:27,120 And that's OK, There's not, not a problem with that. 454 00:22:27,130 --> 00:22:30,750 But you can just, you know, know that those exist so that when we 455 00:22:30,760 --> 00:22:33,510 are out in the profession, you know, really practicing law too, 456 00:22:33,900 --> 00:22:36,770 I'm sure that will be the case over and over again. 457 00:22:36,780 --> 00:22:39,550 So it's, if anything, I felt, you know, more prepared. 458 00:22:39,560 --> 00:22:42,500 I have the heads up now that there's all kinds of 459 00:22:42,510 --> 00:22:44,700 personalities. And I might not always be 460 00:22:44,710 --> 00:22:48,110 welcomed with a hello friend on the other side of the line when 461 00:22:48,120 --> 00:22:51,190 I'm, you know, acting on on a client file here. 462 00:22:51,200 --> 00:22:53,230 I think that was something that came to mind. 463 00:22:53,240 --> 00:22:54,400 Yeah. It's a great perspective, 464 00:22:54,410 --> 00:22:56,830 Claudio. I think you're turning it very 465 00:22:56,840 --> 00:22:59,730 positive that it's a learning opportunity and that it does 466 00:22:59,740 --> 00:23:02,050 open our perspective that there's all kinds of characters 467 00:23:02,060 --> 00:23:04,460 in the world and some are going to like better with than others, 468 00:23:04,470 --> 00:23:06,460 maybe not so much. And that that's OK. 469 00:23:06,470 --> 00:23:08,620 And that we're not everybody's cup of tea all the time. 470 00:23:08,630 --> 00:23:11,630 And that that's OK, right? And it may not be us. 471 00:23:11,640 --> 00:23:13,740 We might have just again, caught them in a bad time. 472 00:23:13,750 --> 00:23:17,740 And not everybody is so verbally communicating live, right? 473 00:23:17,750 --> 00:23:20,340 Some people communicate better in other formats. 474 00:23:20,350 --> 00:23:23,080 So I appreciate that. And I think and it's just 475 00:23:23,090 --> 00:23:25,410 learning how to get through what you need to get through. 476 00:23:25,420 --> 00:23:29,060 If it's if it's a client file, just get what you get to get 477 00:23:29,070 --> 00:23:32,260 done, do what you need to get done, I should say, and and move 478 00:23:32,270 --> 00:23:33,630 on. So I appreciate. 479 00:23:33,640 --> 00:23:35,700 That I was just, I was just going to say it. 480 00:23:35,710 --> 00:23:38,890 It's very interesting that those experiences happen in and as a 481 00:23:38,900 --> 00:23:42,290 matter of fact, I had offered to a few lawyers in the past to 482 00:23:42,300 --> 00:23:46,390 record a podcast so that when this very busy times would come 483 00:23:46,400 --> 00:23:50,060 around and they would say, you know, I can't talk to students 484 00:23:50,070 --> 00:23:51,590 now. There's too much going on. 485 00:23:51,600 --> 00:23:54,290 And 20 students flooded my inbox this week. 486 00:23:54,340 --> 00:23:57,830 You could, you know, maybe send that podcast link and say hi, 487 00:23:57,840 --> 00:24:00,630 like here I tell my story. If you have any specific 488 00:24:00,640 --> 00:24:03,760 questions about my practice or anything that we didn't cover in 489 00:24:03,770 --> 00:24:07,010 this episode, you know, ask me specifically that. 490 00:24:07,060 --> 00:24:10,050 Don't don't misunderstand my, you know, lack of time for lack 491 00:24:10,060 --> 00:24:12,510 of interest. But this hopefully will help you 492 00:24:12,520 --> 00:24:15,300 for the time being. And and actually quite a few 493 00:24:15,310 --> 00:24:18,460 lawyers took me U on that because they felt really bad 494 00:24:18,470 --> 00:24:21,200 about not being able to get back because it was something that 495 00:24:21,210 --> 00:24:23,650 they enjoyed doing. So I was very happy that, you 496 00:24:23,660 --> 00:24:25,780 know, some people in the profession felt that. 497 00:24:25,790 --> 00:24:27,600 Way I think that's a brilliant idea. 498 00:24:27,650 --> 00:24:30,110 It's good for everyone. I think that's fantastic. 499 00:24:30,170 --> 00:24:31,600 I love that. I love that so much. 500 00:24:31,610 --> 00:24:33,800 And I want to bring this conversation back to something I 501 00:24:33,810 --> 00:24:36,240 see regularly in students and new lawyers. 502 00:24:36,250 --> 00:24:39,780 And that is when they come in to firms, they're incredibly eager, 503 00:24:39,830 --> 00:24:43,400 but often not with a full understanding of how to build 504 00:24:43,410 --> 00:24:46,070 those relationships, how to communicate while we're talking 505 00:24:46,080 --> 00:24:49,420 about communicating, how to position themselves well and 506 00:24:49,520 --> 00:24:52,130 even fully understand what is expected of them. 507 00:24:52,140 --> 00:24:54,370 And that's the space that I'm interested in and helping them 508 00:24:54,380 --> 00:24:57,120 understand what's expected. I think we can do a better job 509 00:24:57,130 --> 00:25:00,280 of explaining that. From your experience seeing 510 00:25:00,290 --> 00:25:05,130 multiple systems across Brazil, the US and Canada, what do you 511 00:25:05,170 --> 00:25:07,360 are there any themes that have come up for you and what new 512 00:25:07,370 --> 00:25:09,900 lawyers need to know that's not taught in law schools? 513 00:25:11,350 --> 00:25:14,240 I think that one of the big things that I've found over and 514 00:25:14,250 --> 00:25:17,580 over again and that I kind of reduced to a phrase is that in 515 00:25:17,590 --> 00:25:20,920 law in in legal careers as specifically communication 516 00:25:20,930 --> 00:25:23,020 matters much more than your credentials. 517 00:25:23,090 --> 00:25:27,400 So you could be, you know, having the bar of New York ON 518 00:25:27,410 --> 00:25:31,380 California, UK altogether and should not be a great 519 00:25:31,390 --> 00:25:33,460 communicator. And that might not open as many 520 00:25:33,470 --> 00:25:35,780 doors for you. And that's not only about, you 521 00:25:35,790 --> 00:25:38,500 know, getting a job, but it's actually once you're getting to 522 00:25:38,510 --> 00:25:41,040 the workplace. There's so many things that this 523 00:25:41,050 --> 00:25:44,240 big box called communication involve, you know, it has to do 524 00:25:44,250 --> 00:25:46,560 with the way you portray yourself, the way you tell your 525 00:25:46,570 --> 00:25:49,850 story, the way you reach out to say, hey, I have capacity. 526 00:25:49,860 --> 00:25:52,790 Can I help with anything? But also the way you show up at 527 00:25:52,800 --> 00:25:56,290 work And when you were there in person at 4:00 PM and you see a 528 00:25:56,300 --> 00:25:58,990 partner kind of wandering around and you kind of volunteer 529 00:25:59,000 --> 00:26:01,210 yourself. You, you, you talk over, you 530 00:26:01,220 --> 00:26:04,460 know, with Dan or you go to get some water and you chat with 531 00:26:04,470 --> 00:26:06,930 people around you. So there's so many ways that 532 00:26:06,940 --> 00:26:10,470 communication can be present in the day-to-day work that really 533 00:26:10,540 --> 00:26:13,240 can have all these fancy terms to talk about it, right? 534 00:26:13,250 --> 00:26:16,090 So you can talk about mirroring, you can talk about, you know, 535 00:26:16,100 --> 00:26:19,360 managing up. There's all these very specific 536 00:26:19,370 --> 00:26:22,470 corporate lingo that was developed about how you can do 537 00:26:22,480 --> 00:26:26,100 better network and they're all related to communication. 538 00:26:26,110 --> 00:26:29,820 And I just think that that, you know, hopefully improving that 539 00:26:29,830 --> 00:26:33,300 communication can really help you in your career, not only to 540 00:26:33,310 --> 00:26:36,780 advance in your career, but really to be, you know, someone 541 00:26:36,790 --> 00:26:40,070 who can clearly communicate. It's definitely something that 542 00:26:40,110 --> 00:26:43,220 can help you to enjoy your career better as well. 543 00:26:43,270 --> 00:26:45,920 You had just mentioned that sometimes as a profession, you 544 00:26:45,930 --> 00:26:49,220 can we can do better in the sense of communicating what 545 00:26:49,230 --> 00:26:52,800 others should expect of us, be that clients, be that articling 546 00:26:52,810 --> 00:26:55,740 students are just starting. And sometimes we don't do a good 547 00:26:55,750 --> 00:26:58,980 job at telling them what's expected of them, but also on 548 00:26:58,990 --> 00:27:02,230 instructing them on giving, you know, clear instructions of this 549 00:27:02,240 --> 00:27:04,630 is what you need to do. This is how you accomplish that. 550 00:27:04,780 --> 00:27:08,170 OI think that communication is really a key thing. 551 00:27:08,180 --> 00:27:11,450 And it's also something that it doesn't matter where in the 552 00:27:11,460 --> 00:27:14,890 world you are, even though communication styles change a 553 00:27:14,900 --> 00:27:18,290 little bit, whether you are in a high context, a country or in a 554 00:27:18,300 --> 00:27:21,970 low context environment, still communication makes a big 555 00:27:21,980 --> 00:27:24,410 difference. So I think that it's really one 556 00:27:24,420 --> 00:27:27,190 of the these very, you know, transferable skills that 557 00:27:27,250 --> 00:27:30,350 regardless of what you work with, you're going to need that.