1 00:00:12,870 --> 00:00:14,820 Welcome to Studying Law Around the World. 2 00:00:15,010 --> 00:00:17,860 I'm Claudio Claus. In each episode, I talk with 3 00:00:17,870 --> 00:00:20,840 lawyers, law students, and professors from different parts 4 00:00:20,850 --> 00:00:24,740 of the world to talk about legal education, careers, and what the 5 00:00:24,750 --> 00:00:26,420 profession looks like in real life. 6 00:00:26,430 --> 00:00:29,470 We talk about the hard parts, the surprises, and the decisions 7 00:00:29,480 --> 00:00:32,259 that shaped their paths. Whether you're planning to study 8 00:00:32,270 --> 00:00:35,520 abroad, thinking about working in another legal system, or just 9 00:00:35,530 --> 00:00:39,640 curious about how law works around the world, this podcast 10 00:00:39,650 --> 00:00:44,350 is for you. This episode of Studying War 11 00:00:44,360 --> 00:00:48,340 Around the World is proudly sponsored by ITL Prep from imand 12 00:00:48,390 --> 00:00:52,260 Exam Prep, the comprehensive resource designed specifically 13 00:00:52,330 --> 00:00:55,420 for internationally trained lawyers preparing for the Inca 14 00:00:55,430 --> 00:00:57,960 exams. We understand that the NCA 15 00:00:57,970 --> 00:01:00,180 accreditation journey can feel overwhelming. 16 00:01:00,290 --> 00:01:03,760 You can face many obstacles getting to success courses that 17 00:01:03,770 --> 00:01:07,900 cost too much, offer too little, or leave you more confused than 18 00:01:07,910 --> 00:01:10,500 when you started. That's why Inland Exam Prep 19 00:01:10,510 --> 00:01:14,420 created ITIL Prep as martyr, more reliable way to succeed. 20 00:01:14,470 --> 00:01:17,960 Our module based self study courses and expert LED review 21 00:01:17,970 --> 00:01:21,820 sessions are designed by actual law professors, many of whom are 22 00:01:21,830 --> 00:01:25,400 Itls themselves or teach at international law schools. 23 00:01:25,450 --> 00:01:28,790 They know the Inca process, they understand your journey, and 24 00:01:28,800 --> 00:01:31,730 they've built these courses to guide you clearly through the 25 00:01:31,740 --> 00:01:35,610 NCA syllabi, helping you gain the understanding you need to be 26 00:01:35,620 --> 00:01:38,190 at your best for success on your exams. 27 00:01:38,260 --> 00:01:41,710 With ITL Prep, you'll gain confidence and clarity, whether 28 00:01:41,720 --> 00:01:44,910 it's foundational concepts or your tackling specialized 29 00:01:44,920 --> 00:01:48,350 Canadian law topics. It's affordable, it's flexible, 30 00:01:48,440 --> 00:01:51,650 it's built with you in mind. And right now we're offering 31 00:01:51,660 --> 00:01:55,030 something special as an exclusive offer for the Studying 32 00:01:55,040 --> 00:01:57,330 Law Around the World podcast listeners. 33 00:01:57,370 --> 00:02:03,020 ITIL Prep is offering 50% off all courses for the 1st 50 34 00:02:03,030 --> 00:02:06,560 purchases. Simply use the promo code ITL 50 35 00:02:06,570 --> 00:02:09,520 at checkout. Casebooks and other resources 36 00:02:09,530 --> 00:02:11,820 must be purchased separately. Visit 37 00:02:12,050 --> 00:02:19,860 imams.chtodaythatsedmond.ca and use promo code ITL 50 to claim 38 00:02:19,870 --> 00:02:24,000 your 50% discount on NCA exam preparation courses. 39 00:02:26,860 --> 00:02:29,650 Today I have the opportunity to interview Kirby Chao. 40 00:02:29,880 --> 00:02:33,190 She's a trailblazer in Canadian legal profession. 41 00:02:33,260 --> 00:02:36,550 She has served as the Ontario Regional Managing Partner at 42 00:02:36,560 --> 00:02:40,090 McCarthy Tetro until her retirement time and has remained 43 00:02:40,140 --> 00:02:42,450 deeply involved in advancing women in law. 44 00:02:42,500 --> 00:02:46,350 She's the co-author of Breaking True Tales from the Top Canadian 45 00:02:46,360 --> 00:02:49,410 Woman General Counsel. She's also a member of the 46 00:02:49,420 --> 00:02:52,790 Ontario Review Board and continues to mentor and supports 47 00:02:52,800 --> 00:02:55,590 the next generation of legal professionals across Canada. 48 00:02:55,830 --> 00:02:57,440 Thank you so much for joining us today. 49 00:02:57,830 --> 00:03:00,560 Thank you, nice to be here. Really appreciate it. 50 00:03:00,630 --> 00:03:03,500 It's your starter podcast today. I'd love for you to introduce 51 00:03:03,730 --> 00:03:06,920 yourself to your audience. Well, Claudio has already 52 00:03:06,930 --> 00:03:10,540 outlined a little bit about my legal career, but I was a 53 00:03:10,550 --> 00:03:13,980 teacher and that's important, as you'll hear a little bit later. 54 00:03:13,990 --> 00:03:18,360 I think I was a teacher for five years in the Scarborough board 55 00:03:18,370 --> 00:03:21,360 in Toronto. Then I went back to law school 56 00:03:21,370 --> 00:03:25,970 as a mature student and I practiced as a lawyer for 27 57 00:03:26,040 --> 00:03:29,140 years and the last part of my career was in management. 58 00:03:29,150 --> 00:03:32,220 Still continued with the practice, but was in management 59 00:03:32,230 --> 00:03:35,040 and in retirement. All the joy of retirement. 60 00:03:35,090 --> 00:03:39,020 But in retirement, I've done some coaching at law firms and 61 00:03:39,130 --> 00:03:42,900 kept in touch with lawyers, so my fingers are not entirely out 62 00:03:42,910 --> 00:03:46,390 of the pot. Mentioned here that Kirby was 63 00:03:46,400 --> 00:03:48,690 one of the very gracious and generous lawyers that 64 00:03:48,700 --> 00:03:53,510 participated in the 75 Lawyers Initiative that I conducted last 65 00:03:53,520 --> 00:03:55,810 year with the University of Toronto Faculty of Law. 66 00:03:55,820 --> 00:03:58,650 But continuing on with our interview here, let me ask you, 67 00:03:58,700 --> 00:04:02,370 you've made a remarkable career in private practice and beyond, 68 00:04:02,440 --> 00:04:05,270 and I'm wondering what originally drew you to law? 69 00:04:05,280 --> 00:04:07,830 You just mentioned you were a teacher before and also what 70 00:04:07,840 --> 00:04:10,370 kept you engaged in it for so many years? 71 00:04:10,420 --> 00:04:13,090 Well, I think that's a really interesting question and cause 72 00:04:13,100 --> 00:04:15,720 me to look back because sometimes when you're taking 73 00:04:15,790 --> 00:04:18,610 steps, you don't realize what's prompting you to do them. 74 00:04:18,620 --> 00:04:23,230 So I was at university for undergrad and a masters in the 75 00:04:23,240 --> 00:04:26,410 60s. So it was a time of big change 76 00:04:26,420 --> 00:04:30,610 and on many fronts, but one that particularly caught my attention 77 00:04:30,620 --> 00:04:34,770 was the advancement of women generally in the workplace, but 78 00:04:34,780 --> 00:04:37,850 in such professions as law. But I'd always wanted to be a 79 00:04:37,860 --> 00:04:39,950 teacher, so that was the path I was on. 80 00:04:39,960 --> 00:04:42,630 After I did graduate work, I thought, well, I don't really 81 00:04:42,640 --> 00:04:45,430 want to try and teach at university, so I'm not going to 82 00:04:45,440 --> 00:04:48,660 go on and get it PhD. But then I went to teach high 83 00:04:48,670 --> 00:04:52,720 school and that while I enjoyed it, particularly the students, I 84 00:04:52,730 --> 00:04:56,000 really realized this was not something that was going to keep 85 00:04:56,010 --> 00:04:59,780 me engaged professionally for the rest of my life. 86 00:04:59,830 --> 00:05:02,460 I was too young and inexperienced to have one of the 87 00:05:02,470 --> 00:05:05,320 more leadership roles in teaching a consultant, A 88 00:05:05,330 --> 00:05:08,600 principal, et cetera. And those consultant interested 89 00:05:08,610 --> 00:05:10,220 me. Being a principal did not. 90 00:05:10,290 --> 00:05:14,060 So I sort of cast my mind around as to what I really wanted to do 91 00:05:14,070 --> 00:05:17,870 and law came into my mind. My family did not have big 92 00:05:17,880 --> 00:05:21,130 connections with law. My grandfather who died, my 93 00:05:21,200 --> 00:05:24,370 maternal grandfather who died before I went into law and I 94 00:05:24,380 --> 00:05:26,450 never knew him, died before my birth. 95 00:05:26,460 --> 00:05:30,270 He was a lawyer in small town Manitoba, so doing real estate 96 00:05:30,280 --> 00:05:32,690 and so on. So that was my only contact. 97 00:05:32,700 --> 00:05:36,430 But I decided law and naively I thought, oh Lord, it's so great. 98 00:05:36,440 --> 00:05:38,150 You can just change. You could be a real estate 99 00:05:38,160 --> 00:05:40,410 lawyer and then the next year you could be a criminal lawyer 100 00:05:40,480 --> 00:05:41,930 and the next year could be a corporate lawyer. 101 00:05:41,940 --> 00:05:44,360 Of course it doesn't work that way, but I didn't know. 102 00:05:44,420 --> 00:05:49,680 But I thought so flexible. So then I went to law school and 103 00:05:49,690 --> 00:05:52,700 I sort of after teaching, I thought teaching after being at 104 00:05:52,710 --> 00:05:55,740 university in the 60s, I thought teaching was sort of 105 00:05:55,810 --> 00:06:00,120 predominantly male. So the principles were all male, 106 00:06:00,130 --> 00:06:03,260 the big consultants were male, people at the board were male, 107 00:06:03,270 --> 00:06:04,780 the chair of the board was a male. 108 00:06:04,870 --> 00:06:09,620 So I was kind of surprised that women's excellent teachers were 109 00:06:09,630 --> 00:06:12,490 clustered at the teaching level and didn't seem to rise. 110 00:06:12,500 --> 00:06:16,500 So that was my first experience of saying there's something 111 00:06:16,510 --> 00:06:19,790 about this that's not right. So when I was in teaching, I 112 00:06:19,800 --> 00:06:23,810 started this sort of group of like minded women where we were 113 00:06:23,820 --> 00:06:28,100 first of all trying to support other women to apply for these 114 00:06:28,110 --> 00:06:31,000 jobs outside of the classroom. And then to support them while 115 00:06:31,010 --> 00:06:34,310 they were doing it, we also started a newsletter. 116 00:06:34,360 --> 00:06:38,150 So I wrote the newsletter and we featured women in it and that 117 00:06:38,160 --> 00:06:40,950 went to every single teacher in the Scarborough board at the 118 00:06:40,960 --> 00:06:43,450 secondary level. And thirdly, I went around and I 119 00:06:43,460 --> 00:06:45,550 did speaking. So this was something new for 120 00:06:45,560 --> 00:06:47,310 me. But it was, you know, high 121 00:06:47,320 --> 00:06:49,960 schools who had invite us in to meet with their teachers. 122 00:06:49,970 --> 00:06:52,640 And what was this whole thing about women? 123 00:06:52,650 --> 00:06:56,060 So I was right into speaking about that issue. 124 00:06:56,110 --> 00:07:00,560 So after, you know, going into law, I thought, oh, law, it's 125 00:07:00,570 --> 00:07:03,170 going to be so much more progressive than teaching. 126 00:07:03,180 --> 00:07:07,300 And no, it wasn't. And so I had already developed 127 00:07:07,310 --> 00:07:10,760 this interest in women advancing in the workplace. 128 00:07:10,770 --> 00:07:13,210 So I carried that into law. And I think one thing that 129 00:07:13,220 --> 00:07:15,900 really helped me was being a mature student. 130 00:07:15,970 --> 00:07:18,550 First of all, I felt more bulletproof. 131 00:07:18,640 --> 00:07:21,790 So I can put it that way. If the law firm that hired me 132 00:07:21,800 --> 00:07:24,200 didn't like me, I knew I could get another job. 133 00:07:24,210 --> 00:07:28,980 I wasn't feeling I had to fit in and be liked in order to 134 00:07:28,990 --> 00:07:31,440 succeed. And that gave me a lot of 135 00:07:31,450 --> 00:07:34,180 confidence. And it also, again, as I said 136 00:07:34,190 --> 00:07:37,520 earlier, having already spoken up once about the issues 137 00:07:37,530 --> 00:07:41,340 affecting women in the workplace in teaching, I now really said, 138 00:07:41,390 --> 00:07:44,080 look, law needs some of this same work. 139 00:07:44,090 --> 00:07:47,300 So most of the partners in law firms were male, but women held 140 00:07:47,310 --> 00:07:50,970 a very small percentage of the lawyers in firms. 141 00:07:50,980 --> 00:07:55,170 And I thought, given that women do so well at law school, is 142 00:07:55,180 --> 00:08:01,840 there something wrong here? If you're an internationally 143 00:08:01,850 --> 00:08:05,180 trained lawyer or law student working in or trying to break 144 00:08:05,190 --> 00:08:09,560 into an English speaking common law system, you know that legal 145 00:08:09,570 --> 00:08:12,980 writing is one of the biggest challenges and one of the most 146 00:08:12,990 --> 00:08:16,940 important skills to master. That's where Grammatica comes 147 00:08:16,950 --> 00:08:19,140 in. I'm Rebecca Lockwood, the 148 00:08:19,150 --> 00:08:21,980 lawyer, mediator, educator and founder of Grammatica 149 00:08:21,990 --> 00:08:25,440 International. We help lawyers and law students 150 00:08:25,450 --> 00:08:30,000 to write sharper, speak clearer, and land more interviews with on 151 00:08:30,010 --> 00:08:33,960 demand online courses, live workshops and one-on-one 152 00:08:33,970 --> 00:08:36,740 consulting designed just for legal professionals. 153 00:08:37,090 --> 00:08:40,179 I have worked with so many lawyers like you who are 154 00:08:40,190 --> 00:08:43,720 exceptionally smart, qualified and capable, but need some 155 00:08:43,730 --> 00:08:46,680 guidance to really stand out in a competitive legal market. 156 00:08:46,830 --> 00:08:49,480 And I get it myself, having lived and worked in five 157 00:08:49,490 --> 00:08:52,630 countries during my 17 years in law and education. 158 00:08:53,310 --> 00:08:55,760 Whether you're looking to sharpen your writing skills 159 00:08:55,770 --> 00:08:59,620 generally, refresh your CD, or draft an application for a law 160 00:08:59,630 --> 00:09:04,650 program, Grammatica can help. Visit Grammatico to get started. 161 00:09:08,180 --> 00:09:11,350 But the thing I liked about law per se, leaving that issue 162 00:09:11,360 --> 00:09:15,070 aside, was it's perfect for someone like me. 163 00:09:15,140 --> 00:09:18,980 Shortest attention span. So if you're a litigator, you've 164 00:09:18,990 --> 00:09:21,030 got a case. If that case might be about 165 00:09:21,040 --> 00:09:23,350 bricks, all of a sudden you're learning all about how you make 166 00:09:23,360 --> 00:09:26,620 bricks, then it's over, it's settled, It went to trial, then 167 00:09:26,630 --> 00:09:30,310 you're on to something else. So it was constantly learning 168 00:09:30,320 --> 00:09:33,040 something for a specific, and I really enjoyed that. 169 00:09:33,050 --> 00:09:36,010 These weren't necessarily topics I would have chosen, but you 170 00:09:36,020 --> 00:09:38,340 know, once you got into them, they were interesting. 171 00:09:38,410 --> 00:09:41,900 And so that there was enough in the legal profession, the 172 00:09:41,910 --> 00:09:45,200 day-to-day work that interested me, but boy, a lot of work to 173 00:09:45,210 --> 00:09:47,240 keep me there. But then having this sort of 174 00:09:47,250 --> 00:09:51,430 sideline of working on bigger issues, particularly focused on 175 00:09:51,440 --> 00:09:54,740 women, that also gave me a different purpose to sort of 176 00:09:54,750 --> 00:09:58,940 look at my profession of law from standing back, what could 177 00:09:58,950 --> 00:10:01,520 we do? And I started to replicate some 178 00:10:01,530 --> 00:10:06,340 of the things that we had done in or I had done in teaching, 179 00:10:06,440 --> 00:10:10,870 and that included reaching out to women, encouraging them not 180 00:10:10,880 --> 00:10:14,710 to leave the profession early, talking about partnership, 181 00:10:14,720 --> 00:10:16,730 speaking to other law firms, etcetera. 182 00:10:16,740 --> 00:10:20,950 And I really enjoyed that work. Now, happy to say, although the 183 00:10:20,960 --> 00:10:25,270 pace on this is pretty glacial now, it's more of a topic that 184 00:10:25,320 --> 00:10:30,890 is common in law firms, but in these, I was called in 1981 to 185 00:10:30,900 --> 00:10:34,970 the Ontario bar. It was something people weren't 186 00:10:34,980 --> 00:10:37,560 doing. So it was really getting in on 187 00:10:37,570 --> 00:10:40,980 the ground floor, which is easier in some ways and harder 188 00:10:40,990 --> 00:10:44,300 than others. And again, given a very 189 00:10:44,310 --> 00:10:48,560 successful financially and professionally culture of law 190 00:10:48,610 --> 00:10:52,640 that's mainly male, it's a bit of a challenge as well. 191 00:10:52,710 --> 00:10:57,520 And most male lawyers at that time had non working spouses. 192 00:10:57,530 --> 00:11:02,420 So they had the built-in support system for them to work as hard 193 00:11:02,430 --> 00:11:04,890 as you're required to in law. They weren't going through 194 00:11:04,930 --> 00:11:06,780 childbirth. They weren't primary 195 00:11:06,790 --> 00:11:08,140 responsibility for their children. 196 00:11:08,700 --> 00:11:12,630 It was a challenging field, but it was something that allowed me 197 00:11:12,680 --> 00:11:15,970 not only with the work which I liked, but with this kind of 198 00:11:15,980 --> 00:11:18,390 concept of working for women in law. 199 00:11:18,460 --> 00:11:20,890 To me a really well balanced practice. 200 00:11:21,100 --> 00:11:23,630 Amazing. And building off of that, when 201 00:11:23,640 --> 00:11:26,750 you look back, were there a few specific moments early in your 202 00:11:26,760 --> 00:11:30,510 career that shaped the kind of leader you became later on? 203 00:11:30,580 --> 00:11:35,290 Well, I think what I noticed right away is that women tended 204 00:11:35,300 --> 00:11:39,100 to leave law if they were about to have a child. 205 00:11:39,110 --> 00:11:44,370 So if they were pregnant, why? Well, they felt they could not 206 00:11:44,380 --> 00:11:48,310 balance carrying in a way that they wanted to caring for a 207 00:11:48,320 --> 00:11:52,390 child, raising a child and also being a successful lawyer. 208 00:11:52,460 --> 00:11:57,230 And I was seeing colleagues at that point who were young who 209 00:11:57,240 --> 00:11:59,550 weren't yet partners. And there were very few women 210 00:11:59,560 --> 00:12:00,830 partners. But, you know, weren't even in 211 00:12:00,840 --> 00:12:04,870 that consideration leaving then, you know, and I know the 212 00:12:04,880 --> 00:12:08,690 difficulty, but law is it's, it's an acquired skill. 213 00:12:08,700 --> 00:12:13,100 And if you step off the track early, it's quite difficult to 214 00:12:13,110 --> 00:12:16,540 return because you're older and you've lost the opportunity for 215 00:12:16,550 --> 00:12:20,620 years of experience. So that I think it was really 216 00:12:20,630 --> 00:12:25,100 watching women that I knew that were strong, strong lawyers 217 00:12:25,150 --> 00:12:29,420 leave because they felt it was incompatible with the other part 218 00:12:29,430 --> 00:12:32,740 of their life they wanted to pursue as a parent. 219 00:12:32,750 --> 00:12:36,320 And again, this is, you know, somewhat old news these days. 220 00:12:36,330 --> 00:12:39,860 They really need it on the home front, a supportive partner, 221 00:12:39,870 --> 00:12:42,480 whether male or female, to assist them. 222 00:12:42,490 --> 00:12:45,690 This was not something they could do alone and in the law 223 00:12:45,700 --> 00:12:49,990 firm situation, they needed to be judged on their merit. 224 00:12:50,050 --> 00:12:52,370 They needed to be given experiences. 225 00:12:54,850 --> 00:12:57,860 Whether you're studying law in Mumbai or practising in 226 00:12:57,870 --> 00:13:01,820 Manhattan, Rev can help you transcribe and analyze all your 227 00:13:01,830 --> 00:13:06,950 case materials with verifiablecitations.learnmore@rev.com. 228 00:13:11,570 --> 00:13:13,750 And you asked about a particular experience. 229 00:13:13,760 --> 00:13:17,730 I remember it was a litigator that one of the more senior 230 00:13:17,740 --> 00:13:21,630 males asked me if I wanted to go on this trial. 231 00:13:21,700 --> 00:13:23,990 And it was very interesting trial going to be a couple of 232 00:13:24,000 --> 00:13:26,070 weeks. And he said, well, I have to 233 00:13:26,080 --> 00:13:30,570 caution you, it's out of town. And I'm thinking to myself, why 234 00:13:30,580 --> 00:13:33,730 is he telling me that? And well, obviously for two 235 00:13:33,740 --> 00:13:37,240 reasons. It was well, you as a mother, I 236 00:13:37,250 --> 00:13:39,270 had twins in my first year of practice. 237 00:13:39,280 --> 00:13:42,610 So I was up on that front. Well, you won't be able to leave 238 00:13:42,620 --> 00:13:45,430 your children for two week and not talking on a practical but 239 00:13:45,530 --> 00:13:47,560 is an emotional basis because you're a mother. 240 00:13:47,630 --> 00:13:50,420 And secondly, what male female out of town? 241 00:13:50,430 --> 00:13:54,520 I'm looking at going no, no. And I said no, that won't be a 242 00:13:54,530 --> 00:13:56,300 problem. You know, I had good childcare 243 00:13:56,310 --> 00:13:59,680 and a supportive partner. So I think those, you know, 244 00:13:59,690 --> 00:14:03,720 observing myself and observing other women in situations where 245 00:14:03,730 --> 00:14:06,800 I thought they weren't being encouraged to develop to their 246 00:14:06,810 --> 00:14:10,460 full potential really pushed me to start doing more women's 247 00:14:10,470 --> 00:14:12,080 stuff. I didn't go into law saying, oh, 248 00:14:12,090 --> 00:14:14,360 good, you know, I'm going to wave that flag. 249 00:14:14,370 --> 00:14:18,610 But nothing was being done because why fix something unless 250 00:14:18,620 --> 00:14:21,850 it's broken would be the view of most male managing partners at 251 00:14:21,860 --> 00:14:24,410 that time. So I think it needed an 252 00:14:24,560 --> 00:14:28,010 outsider, so to speak, like me, who was saying you're losing 253 00:14:28,020 --> 00:14:31,110 something here. And you and I also know that 254 00:14:31,200 --> 00:14:35,190 there are more lawyers applying for positions at a law firm. 255 00:14:35,200 --> 00:14:40,170 So if a woman left, her position would be filled very quickly, 256 00:14:40,240 --> 00:14:43,190 usually by a male. So it was something that law 257 00:14:43,200 --> 00:14:44,710 firm. So while you leave, OK, you 258 00:14:44,720 --> 00:14:47,870 leave, we can carry on. So those were the sort of 259 00:14:47,880 --> 00:14:50,690 impetuses. And I found not only did I find 260 00:14:50,700 --> 00:14:53,570 practising law rewarding, as I said, sort of on a learning 261 00:14:53,580 --> 00:14:56,030 intellectual sense, you gotta have so many skills, you gotta 262 00:14:56,040 --> 00:14:58,970 be able to get along with the client and you gotta deal with 263 00:14:58,980 --> 00:15:03,190 judges and so on. But I also found it inspiring in 264 00:15:03,200 --> 00:15:07,290 a different way to work for a cause, to say he can make this 265 00:15:07,300 --> 00:15:09,870 profession better and that we're not saying, well, there are 266 00:15:09,880 --> 00:15:12,350 women, the poorest students at law school, take them out of 267 00:15:12,360 --> 00:15:15,490 pity. We're saying here is a really 268 00:15:15,500 --> 00:15:20,790 great opportunity for you have top notch lawyers, but they have 269 00:15:20,800 --> 00:15:22,980 different challenges. You gotta think about how you're 270 00:15:22,990 --> 00:15:23,590 gonna meet. Them. 271 00:15:23,600 --> 00:15:25,650 No, that's fantastic. What a story. 272 00:15:25,700 --> 00:15:29,200 I'm sure it was a life of firsts in many, many ways for you. 273 00:15:29,210 --> 00:15:32,450 And if I can ask you a little more about the book you wrote as 274 00:15:32,460 --> 00:15:35,430 well, I'd love to hear how that idea came about. 275 00:15:35,440 --> 00:15:38,930 And then maybe you have any specific stories that you still 276 00:15:38,940 --> 00:15:41,890 carry with you? Do I do so the book? 277 00:15:41,900 --> 00:15:46,410 I have to give full credit to my co-author Carrie Mandel. 278 00:15:46,480 --> 00:15:50,260 Carrie was trained as a lawyer, graduated from Princeton, a mom 279 00:15:50,270 --> 00:15:55,200 with kids, and she had read an American book, which we, in 280 00:15:55,210 --> 00:15:59,890 essence, took the same idea that had come out the year before we 281 00:15:59,900 --> 00:16:03,080 got into ours, which focused on general counsel. 282 00:16:03,090 --> 00:16:06,120 And she said, I didn't know her. She and I were on a panel 283 00:16:06,130 --> 00:16:08,080 together. After the panel, she came up. 284 00:16:08,090 --> 00:16:09,860 She said, I know we've never met. 285 00:16:09,870 --> 00:16:12,240 I've got this idea. She told me about the book. 286 00:16:12,250 --> 00:16:14,150 I did. And she said, would you do that 287 00:16:14,160 --> 00:16:16,340 with me? And I said yes. 288 00:16:16,350 --> 00:16:21,600 And I liked her enthusiasm, very infectious personality in the 289 00:16:21,610 --> 00:16:24,260 sense of, you know, this will be fun and it'll be interesting. 290 00:16:24,270 --> 00:16:27,560 It's up my alley. And so we became friends over 291 00:16:27,570 --> 00:16:29,740 this. She was working full time. 292 00:16:29,750 --> 00:16:33,280 She actually did practice, but now she's in legal recruitment, 293 00:16:33,290 --> 00:16:35,740 still working, She's working full time. 294 00:16:35,750 --> 00:16:38,150 And I'm thinking, Oh my goodness, you know, this will 295 00:16:38,160 --> 00:16:40,520 take us forever. No, So she drove us. 296 00:16:40,530 --> 00:16:42,760 And you know, I had, we went to this rule. 297 00:16:42,830 --> 00:16:47,580 Unlike the US, as you may know, Canada's not keep statistics 298 00:16:47,590 --> 00:16:51,090 about women in corporations to hold the position of general 299 00:16:51,100 --> 00:16:56,010 counsel and so on and so forth. We decided we would focus on 300 00:16:56,080 --> 00:17:00,530 Canada's top 20 companies and we wanted to have it across Canada, 301 00:17:00,540 --> 00:17:02,670 not just in one province. Sorry. 302 00:17:02,680 --> 00:17:07,510 So we looked up these companies online and then tried to look 303 00:17:07,520 --> 00:17:09,670 and see if their GC was identified. 304 00:17:09,740 --> 00:17:13,270 And obviously, you know, having an unusual, somewhat ambiguous 305 00:17:13,280 --> 00:17:15,810 name myself, you can't always tell from a name. 306 00:17:15,819 --> 00:17:19,849 I mean, if the general counsel was Susan Smith or George Stone, 307 00:17:20,230 --> 00:17:22,300 we could say, oh, male or female. 308 00:17:22,349 --> 00:17:25,680 Sometimes no name was given or sometimes the name was 309 00:17:25,690 --> 00:17:28,020 ambiguous. We had to reach out and sort of 310 00:17:28,030 --> 00:17:33,200 refine the list. And then we had to develop 311 00:17:33,210 --> 00:17:34,900 questions. What did we want to do? 312 00:17:34,910 --> 00:17:39,520 And we thought we didn't want to have a dry, let's do a profile, 313 00:17:39,530 --> 00:17:42,720 headshot profile of X, headshot profile of Y. 314 00:17:42,790 --> 00:17:45,040 We wanted to really get from them. 315 00:17:45,050 --> 00:17:48,210 How did they end up as a GC? What did they like about it? 316 00:17:48,220 --> 00:17:50,720 What advice did they have for women in their careers? 317 00:17:50,800 --> 00:17:54,330 So having a selfish all that, we went out and interviewed people 318 00:17:54,400 --> 00:17:58,270 and one story to Sound of Music, we ended up winning a prize for 319 00:17:58,280 --> 00:18:01,530 this book, illegal prize. And the woman who presented it 320 00:18:01,580 --> 00:18:05,000 to us, you know, in front of some big group of lawyers was on 321 00:18:05,010 --> 00:18:07,650 our list. But she never responded to our 322 00:18:07,660 --> 00:18:09,620 invite. And then all of a sudden she's 323 00:18:09,630 --> 00:18:12,410 handing us the prize saying, you know, this is great and it's had 324 00:18:12,420 --> 00:18:14,350 a big effect. And then she said, I'm really 325 00:18:14,360 --> 00:18:16,690 sorry. I never responded because of 326 00:18:16,700 --> 00:18:20,730 course, no one had heard of me and no one had heard of Kerry. 327 00:18:20,740 --> 00:18:23,140 We were just too lawyers. I don't know whether people 328 00:18:23,150 --> 00:18:26,520 thought we weren't serious. And you know, GC's are, are busy 329 00:18:26,530 --> 00:18:29,360 people. The people, the women who 330 00:18:29,370 --> 00:18:32,160 replied to our invitation, again, not knowing anything 331 00:18:32,170 --> 00:18:34,530 about us. I think we're very pleased with 332 00:18:34,540 --> 00:18:37,760 the way it came out because it was interesting. 333 00:18:37,770 --> 00:18:41,760 Different paths and part of it, you know, as you may know, 334 00:18:41,770 --> 00:18:45,500 lawyers in private practice again at that time used to think 335 00:18:45,550 --> 00:18:48,660 being in house, that's really, that's not a real, you know, 336 00:18:48,670 --> 00:18:50,980 legal job. You want to be a lawyer in 337 00:18:50,990 --> 00:18:53,220 private practice. You know, their practice doesn't 338 00:18:53,230 --> 00:18:56,660 work for everybody, and there are some real opportunities 339 00:18:56,670 --> 00:18:58,960 here. And of course, if you're the GC 340 00:18:58,970 --> 00:19:02,980 of a big corporation, you'll have much more influence, 341 00:19:02,990 --> 00:19:05,700 perhaps even at a younger age, than you would in private 342 00:19:05,710 --> 00:19:07,980 practice. So I think part of it was 343 00:19:07,990 --> 00:19:12,680 wanting to hear what made them leave and what did they feel 344 00:19:12,690 --> 00:19:16,360 when they were there as far as their career paths. 345 00:19:16,450 --> 00:19:20,120 Now, it was interesting to me as a litigator, and Kerry was also 346 00:19:20,130 --> 00:19:22,890 a litigator. Most of the women had a 347 00:19:22,900 --> 00:19:26,610 background in corporate law, you know, the most conservative part 348 00:19:26,660 --> 00:19:31,090 of law. And many of them said, you know, 349 00:19:31,140 --> 00:19:35,250 I didn't feel I was part of a team in the law firm. 350 00:19:35,260 --> 00:19:39,130 You know, I could do the work, but I wasn't, you know, invited 351 00:19:39,140 --> 00:19:41,750 to go golfing. You know, I didn't go out to 352 00:19:41,760 --> 00:19:44,750 client lunches. And I thought, wait a minute, 353 00:19:44,800 --> 00:19:47,510 I'm a contributor, but I'm not really being welcomed. 354 00:19:47,580 --> 00:19:51,970 And so they saw these positions in companies as obviously again, 355 00:19:51,980 --> 00:19:56,420 quite male dominated, but they were on the team already and 356 00:19:56,430 --> 00:19:58,780 they were there and they got to make big decisions. 357 00:19:58,790 --> 00:20:01,100 So that was a bit of an important insight. 358 00:20:01,110 --> 00:20:05,020 There were a few litigators in the group as well, and they were 359 00:20:05,030 --> 00:20:07,270 people who were just looking for a different kind of challenge. 360 00:20:07,350 --> 00:20:10,080 That's amazing. Well, taking all of that into 361 00:20:10,090 --> 00:20:13,210 consideration, would there be any kind of advice that you give 362 00:20:13,220 --> 00:20:17,700 to a woman lawyer today who is ambitious but not sure if she 363 00:20:17,710 --> 00:20:20,000 could thrive in the traditional firm environment? 364 00:20:20,610 --> 00:20:23,600 You know, as lawyers do, we all love giving advice. 365 00:20:23,960 --> 00:20:27,910 I would say it's not easy now, but it is easier now. 366 00:20:27,920 --> 00:20:31,410 But I think first of all, on the personal side, whether you're on 367 00:20:31,420 --> 00:20:35,770 your own, whether you're in a partnership, you need a partner 368 00:20:35,780 --> 00:20:38,850 who's going to be supportive of you. 369 00:20:38,900 --> 00:20:41,630 Law is a demanding, long hours career. 370 00:20:41,740 --> 00:20:43,950 I'm not even talking about adding children, I just being in 371 00:20:43,960 --> 00:20:46,130 it. If you are with a partner who 372 00:20:46,140 --> 00:20:50,210 expects that you will be supporting his or her moments 373 00:20:50,220 --> 00:20:53,350 every day and doing this, that's not going to be realistic. 374 00:20:53,360 --> 00:20:55,840 So law firms have their difficulties, but also I think 375 00:20:55,850 --> 00:20:58,340 in our personal lives, we have to make choices that are going 376 00:20:58,350 --> 00:21:00,790 to work for us. Second part of that is obviously 377 00:21:00,800 --> 00:21:05,170 family. Law firms are way better now. 378 00:21:05,220 --> 00:21:09,170 I mean, when I had my twins and I was a first year lawyer at 379 00:21:09,180 --> 00:21:12,190 McCarthy Tetrault, I thought, I wonder what I do? 380 00:21:12,260 --> 00:21:16,150 And I went in to see the head of human resources, a guy and he 381 00:21:16,160 --> 00:21:20,490 said, oh, well, you'll go on. And I went, OK. 382 00:21:20,560 --> 00:21:24,090 And I left and I went back and then I get a call about the next 383 00:21:24,100 --> 00:21:27,990 day, go back and he goes, well, I spoke to the managing partner 384 00:21:28,000 --> 00:21:30,560 and you know, maybe you're the second person in Toronto has 385 00:21:30,570 --> 00:21:33,540 ever had a baby. So no, no, no, we're just going 386 00:21:33,550 --> 00:21:36,910 to continue to pay your salary. So it was an evolution for them 387 00:21:36,920 --> 00:21:40,150 and me, but I didn't know, I didn't know what happened. 388 00:21:40,160 --> 00:21:45,470 So I think for women who are looking for jobs initially that 389 00:21:45,480 --> 00:21:48,990 I think it's fair to ask along with, you know, what are my 390 00:21:49,000 --> 00:21:50,310 opportunities? What about partnership? 391 00:21:50,320 --> 00:21:52,970 What about this? But also what, what's your 392 00:21:52,980 --> 00:21:55,560 practice around maternity leaves? 393 00:21:55,570 --> 00:21:57,590 How does that affect my advancement to partnership, 394 00:21:57,600 --> 00:22:00,870 etcetera, etcetera? Because you wanna know this and 395 00:22:00,880 --> 00:22:03,430 lots of law firms are a bit ad hoc. 396 00:22:03,480 --> 00:22:06,110 You know, we'll do things to help you, but you know, we'll 397 00:22:06,120 --> 00:22:07,830 see. But it makes a difference I 398 00:22:07,840 --> 00:22:09,340 think. And if you're a talented person, 399 00:22:09,350 --> 00:22:12,090 you will have a choice. And you may say, well, I really, 400 00:22:12,140 --> 00:22:15,650 I prefer this. If you go in and never find out 401 00:22:15,660 --> 00:22:20,430 these things, you may be sadly disappointed when you actually 402 00:22:20,480 --> 00:22:22,530 need them. So I think, I think that. 403 00:22:22,540 --> 00:22:24,950 So my advice would be check it out. 404 00:22:25,020 --> 00:22:29,060 And secondly, if you're a hard worker and do well, which most 405 00:22:29,070 --> 00:22:33,480 women do in law, when you're in your firm setting, again, you 406 00:22:33,490 --> 00:22:37,820 are representing not only yourself in these situations, 407 00:22:37,830 --> 00:22:40,640 but you're representing women who will come on behind you. 408 00:22:40,650 --> 00:22:43,500 So get a little courage, good practice for all lawyers and 409 00:22:43,510 --> 00:22:46,720 sort of say, well, this is about me and you've never had someone 410 00:22:46,730 --> 00:22:48,840 take maternity leave or you're doing this. 411 00:22:48,850 --> 00:22:51,440 Would you consider this? So feel that you have some 412 00:22:51,450 --> 00:22:54,600 power, Although of course, people around families tend to 413 00:22:54,610 --> 00:22:56,730 be younger lawyers where they may. 414 00:22:56,810 --> 00:22:58,440 I don't feel they have that confidence. 415 00:22:58,450 --> 00:23:01,350 But I guess I'm saying these are all attributes that you need in 416 00:23:01,360 --> 00:23:03,850 your profession. But in this case, use them. 417 00:23:03,860 --> 00:23:06,200 Your best client there is yourself. 418 00:23:06,270 --> 00:23:10,630 So don't eliminate that. Tastic, well, as I mentioned 419 00:23:10,640 --> 00:23:13,740 reading your bio earlier as well, you've mentored many 420 00:23:13,750 --> 00:23:16,380 lawyers over the years. And I was wondering, on the 421 00:23:16,390 --> 00:23:19,450 other side of the table, as a mentor, are there a few things 422 00:23:19,460 --> 00:23:22,890 that you always look for when you're deciding whether you're 423 00:23:22,900 --> 00:23:27,520 able to mentor someone or in a way decide to invest your time 424 00:23:27,530 --> 00:23:29,630 mentoring someone? Are there a few qualities that 425 00:23:29,640 --> 00:23:33,280 you look for in future mentees? Well, I, I think, yes, I think 426 00:23:33,290 --> 00:23:35,290 that that's a very interesting question. 427 00:23:35,440 --> 00:23:38,570 Sometimes myself will, and particularly now that I'm 428 00:23:38,580 --> 00:23:41,970 retired and I have more time to do this, but I will see someone 429 00:23:42,020 --> 00:23:46,310 who I'm saying there's a young lawyer, really smart, does her 430 00:23:46,320 --> 00:23:48,930 work really well. She's in this position now. 431 00:23:48,940 --> 00:23:51,510 She appears to me to be stagnating. 432 00:23:51,560 --> 00:23:53,990 I don't know her well enough to know if that's a choice or 433 00:23:54,000 --> 00:23:56,570 whatever. So I will often see someone that 434 00:23:56,580 --> 00:24:00,100 I believe has potential that she is not using. 435 00:24:00,170 --> 00:24:04,960 And this isn't just about having kids, you know, advancing in the 436 00:24:04,970 --> 00:24:08,800 firm that she happens to be in. And I have mentored men too. 437 00:24:08,810 --> 00:24:11,780 So, but talking about this. So I will often reach out to the 438 00:24:11,790 --> 00:24:15,020 person and say, I'm just curious, are you really happy 439 00:24:15,030 --> 00:24:17,280 where you are now and what you're doing? 440 00:24:17,350 --> 00:24:20,080 And if they say yes, I am OK, I'm the mentor. 441 00:24:20,130 --> 00:24:22,100 I'm not in the firm Go OK, great. 442 00:24:22,110 --> 00:24:24,560 Just wanted to check because I think that's satisfaction so 443 00:24:24,570 --> 00:24:26,860 important. Like for instance, I know that 444 00:24:26,870 --> 00:24:29,400 male, young male lawyers will move very quickly. 445 00:24:29,410 --> 00:24:31,030 They don't like what they're getting. 446 00:24:31,040 --> 00:24:33,130 Their second year lawyer, they're gone. 447 00:24:33,190 --> 00:24:36,720 Women don't know whether it's loyalty or you know, many want 448 00:24:36,730 --> 00:24:39,770 security, etcetera. So they'll stay on where they're 449 00:24:39,830 --> 00:24:43,000 not unhappy, but not really reaching what they want. 450 00:24:43,070 --> 00:24:46,780 And they'll also often stay in situations in which they should 451 00:24:46,790 --> 00:24:50,560 be moving up. But they are now really helpful 452 00:24:50,570 --> 00:24:54,600 to a more senior lawyer who it's working well usually for him 453 00:24:54,670 --> 00:24:57,490 that this person is doing the research of the organization and 454 00:24:57,500 --> 00:24:59,650 this and that. But it's not really helpful for 455 00:24:59,660 --> 00:25:02,200 that person. But you're in that kind of weird 456 00:25:02,210 --> 00:25:04,470 thing where you're getting praise for what you're doing, 457 00:25:04,520 --> 00:25:07,590 but you're not stepping back and saying, but it's not advancing 458 00:25:07,600 --> 00:25:09,970 me. And my experience over the years 459 00:25:09,980 --> 00:25:13,990 is sometimes women need a little push out of that situation where 460 00:25:14,000 --> 00:25:17,230 men will be more requesting earlier on. 461 00:25:17,240 --> 00:25:19,150 Thanks very much. So I'll help you on that. 462 00:25:19,160 --> 00:25:22,230 But I'd really like to be able to examine a witness and not 463 00:25:22,240 --> 00:25:24,730 just that wasn't offered, but I'm going to ask it because all 464 00:25:24,740 --> 00:25:28,230 that can happen is they can say no or I'm not really liking it 465 00:25:28,240 --> 00:25:29,850 here. So I'm going to go out and, you 466 00:25:29,860 --> 00:25:32,690 know, get another job. So I look for people where I 467 00:25:32,700 --> 00:25:35,650 think they aren't acting to their full potential. 468 00:25:35,700 --> 00:25:39,530 And then I sometimes also just from my own experience in my own 469 00:25:39,540 --> 00:25:43,190 firm, when they're in a firm that may not be supporting them, 470 00:25:43,200 --> 00:25:46,170 this would be particularly around like maternity leave and 471 00:25:46,180 --> 00:25:48,810 so on. I don't have a hesitation and 472 00:25:48,820 --> 00:25:51,370 not saying anything about the woman herself, but saying, oh, 473 00:25:51,380 --> 00:25:54,330 I'm just kind of curious what you're doing on this and really, 474 00:25:54,340 --> 00:25:56,650 well, you know, have you thought about this or that? 475 00:25:56,700 --> 00:26:01,280 So if someone is really happy doing something that I think 476 00:26:01,290 --> 00:26:04,610 they have considered their options, they're happy, they 477 00:26:04,620 --> 00:26:07,680 don't appear to be bored or stifled, it wouldn't be what I 478 00:26:07,690 --> 00:26:11,420 would be doing, but my job is not to talk them out of it. 479 00:26:11,830 --> 00:26:15,440 So I'm looking for those people along the way that I think 480 00:26:15,450 --> 00:26:17,080 perhaps aren't doing what they want. 481 00:26:17,090 --> 00:26:20,840 They may need a little push. Often women find it difficult to 482 00:26:20,850 --> 00:26:24,860 be advocates for themselves, to be confident and express it. 483 00:26:24,870 --> 00:26:27,200 And, you know, having seen that in the law firm and then as the 484 00:26:27,210 --> 00:26:30,810 managing partner, having women come in and say, I'm leaving, 485 00:26:30,820 --> 00:26:34,520 this is too hard, I can't do it. And I say, well, OK, let's hear, 486 00:26:34,530 --> 00:26:38,750 let's talk about this. I, I'm much bolder now where 487 00:26:38,760 --> 00:26:41,650 I'll say, well, you know, there are some other paths here. 488 00:26:41,700 --> 00:26:44,170 Maybe they won't work for you, but let's talk about it. 489 00:26:44,180 --> 00:26:47,730 So I'm interested in right person, right time in their 490 00:26:47,740 --> 00:26:50,490 career and willingness to do something. 491 00:26:50,540 --> 00:26:54,010 My job is not to convince people to be something they're not or 492 00:26:54,020 --> 00:26:57,730 push them in a direction they don't want to go, but help them 493 00:26:57,780 --> 00:27:01,810 to see that actually there's other opportunities out there. 494 00:27:02,060 --> 00:27:04,840 It's always in private practice, you know, in companies, no 495 00:27:04,850 --> 00:27:07,960 different in colleges of, you know, College of teachers or 496 00:27:07,970 --> 00:27:11,060 college physicians and surgeons. There's lawyers are everywhere. 497 00:27:11,070 --> 00:27:13,960 They're at newspapers, you know, so on and so forth. 498 00:27:13,970 --> 00:27:17,480 So, so I enjoy that part, which is, I guess in a nutshell, 499 00:27:17,550 --> 00:27:21,240 helping people to either recognize and embrace more 500 00:27:21,250 --> 00:27:24,620 closely some direction that they're dreamily drifting 501 00:27:24,630 --> 00:27:28,680 towards to sort of say, good idea, let's let's enhance it. 502 00:27:31,250 --> 00:27:34,480 You know, as we've been hearing from lawyers around the world on 503 00:27:34,490 --> 00:27:37,580 this show, one thing that's universal is the challenge of 504 00:27:37,590 --> 00:27:40,320 managing massive amounts of case materials. 505 00:27:40,390 --> 00:27:43,380 Whether you're dealing with witness statements in Sydney or 506 00:27:43,390 --> 00:27:47,760 reviewing contracts in Chicago, the volume can be overwhelming. 507 00:27:47,810 --> 00:27:51,680 That's why I wanted to tell you about Rev. Instead of analyzing 508 00:27:51,690 --> 00:27:55,200 documents one at a time, you upload everything to 1 509 00:27:55,210 --> 00:27:58,680 Workspace. PDF's, audio recordings, video 510 00:27:58,690 --> 00:28:04,160 depositions, transcripts, Revs. AI analyzes them altogether and 511 00:28:04,170 --> 00:28:07,840 spots connections you'd never catch working file by file. 512 00:28:07,890 --> 00:28:11,090 Every insight comes with clickable citations that take 513 00:28:11,100 --> 00:28:14,080 you right back to the source, so when the AI finds a 514 00:28:14,090 --> 00:28:17,320 contradiction between witness statements, you can verify it 515 00:28:17,330 --> 00:28:19,700 instantly. Whether you're a law student or 516 00:28:19,710 --> 00:28:23,260 practicing attorney building your international career, Rev 517 00:28:23,270 --> 00:28:26,500 Insights gives you that edge our guests always talk about. 518 00:28:26,510 --> 00:28:34,020 Check it out at rev.com. Absolutely amazing. 519 00:28:34,110 --> 00:28:36,860 Something that just came to my mind here, as you were saying 520 00:28:36,870 --> 00:28:40,740 that, did you also notice maybe a, a difficulty for younger 521 00:28:40,750 --> 00:28:45,720 associates and, and maybe women or maybe in general on this, 522 00:28:45,780 --> 00:28:49,560 This needs to step up from doing the work to also being more 523 00:28:49,570 --> 00:28:52,100 involved with, for example, business development. 524 00:28:52,150 --> 00:28:54,960 Because what you, what you said just sparkled a few thoughts 525 00:28:54,970 --> 00:28:57,500 here on, you know, sometimes you really need the, those 526 00:28:57,510 --> 00:29:00,220 associates who do the, the groundwork people get that 527 00:29:00,230 --> 00:29:04,120 together and that will free up the time so another person can 528 00:29:04,130 --> 00:29:06,640 maybe focus more on business development and all of that. 529 00:29:06,650 --> 00:29:09,560 And, and not that that's necessarily a bad thing, it kind 530 00:29:09,570 --> 00:29:12,570 of has to be done. But what was your view on that? 531 00:29:12,650 --> 00:29:16,180 And how do you incentivize people to be able to put in the 532 00:29:16,190 --> 00:29:18,940 word and be able to to do some business development as? 533 00:29:19,290 --> 00:29:21,080 Well, I think you put your finger on something. 534 00:29:21,090 --> 00:29:25,200 I'm doing some coaching at a small litigation firm and these 535 00:29:25,210 --> 00:29:30,120 are first year associates who I'm working with and of course 536 00:29:30,230 --> 00:29:34,200 they are obsessively focused on, Oh my goodness, I'm trying to 537 00:29:34,210 --> 00:29:37,320 learn how to be a litigator and I've gotta, you know, come up 538 00:29:37,330 --> 00:29:40,190 with these hours and all that and the business development 539 00:29:40,200 --> 00:29:44,070 terrifies them. And so I'm so one of the things 540 00:29:44,080 --> 00:29:46,550 that you do and actually just did it this year. 541 00:29:46,560 --> 00:29:49,330 As I say, you know what business developments not easy. 542 00:29:49,340 --> 00:29:52,490 Actually, I think if you think about it as blind date, it's 543 00:29:52,500 --> 00:29:54,300 actually similar. You know, you got to be able to 544 00:29:54,310 --> 00:29:55,290 talk. You would do this. 545 00:29:55,400 --> 00:29:59,280 I said I'm going to suggest that we the group of first year 546 00:29:59,290 --> 00:30:03,870 associates and I asked actually a fifth year if he would share 547 00:30:03,920 --> 00:30:06,150 the meetings. I was there to give advice, but 548 00:30:06,200 --> 00:30:09,790 I didn't want it to be me. We'll do a group event because 549 00:30:09,800 --> 00:30:12,720 at your stage you're too young, you don't know, you're not going 550 00:30:12,730 --> 00:30:15,190 to phone up somebody senior. So group events are great 551 00:30:15,200 --> 00:30:18,910 because you get to hide. So we did an event and everybody 552 00:30:18,920 --> 00:30:22,700 had, you know, they worked out the job and we did a panel and 553 00:30:22,710 --> 00:30:25,390 they invited clients and they designed the invitation, 554 00:30:25,400 --> 00:30:28,870 etcetera, etcetera. And my goal and we just had our 555 00:30:28,880 --> 00:30:32,520 debrief on it. My goal was to say I want doing 556 00:30:32,530 --> 00:30:35,900 a group event, not necessary. It's cumbersome actually, not 557 00:30:35,910 --> 00:30:38,900 that many people. But if you do it once, you'll 558 00:30:38,910 --> 00:30:43,260 see there are these little steps and you do it and then I say, 559 00:30:43,330 --> 00:30:46,280 and you could redo this by changing it slightly. 560 00:30:46,340 --> 00:30:48,460 Set these. This is something you can do as 561 00:30:48,470 --> 00:30:52,660 business development on your own or with a friend in the firm for 562 00:30:52,670 --> 00:30:55,020 the next couple of years. It's only when you're about 563 00:30:55,030 --> 00:30:57,940 fourth or fifth year that you're really going to get clients that 564 00:30:57,950 --> 00:31:01,820 are important enough that you might take them to lunch. 565 00:31:01,830 --> 00:31:06,150 So it was a big success, I think gave this group confidence that 566 00:31:06,200 --> 00:31:09,430 it's, there's lots of little things, but now everybody had a 567 00:31:09,440 --> 00:31:11,750 template. And so, you know, I'm saying, 568 00:31:11,760 --> 00:31:15,830 well, I hope what you might do is maybe you'll do another Group 569 00:31:15,840 --> 00:31:18,530 1 next year. Well, you know, now and you 570 00:31:18,540 --> 00:31:21,700 know, I'm like the timing you got to get those invitations out 571 00:31:21,710 --> 00:31:23,420 and lawyers are terrible at responding. 572 00:31:23,430 --> 00:31:26,670 But so I think that it helps them calm down. 573 00:31:26,680 --> 00:31:29,230 So when they're in fourth or fifth year and, and business 574 00:31:29,240 --> 00:31:32,730 development becomes even more important, they've done two or 575 00:31:32,740 --> 00:31:35,930 three events. And when we did our debrief, you 576 00:31:35,940 --> 00:31:38,440 could say, well, actually, you want to do this in this way 577 00:31:38,450 --> 00:31:41,340 because that's, you know, your, you wanna know who the clients 578 00:31:41,350 --> 00:31:43,570 are and you want to know what company because that gives you 579 00:31:43,580 --> 00:31:45,960 something to talk to. You have to go and talk to them 580 00:31:45,970 --> 00:31:49,520 all, but you're in a group. So it was practicing the 581 00:31:49,530 --> 00:31:51,700 possible and learning what you need to do. 582 00:31:51,710 --> 00:31:53,820 So I think experiences like that. 583 00:31:53,830 --> 00:31:58,320 And the problem with most senior lawyers and firms is they are 584 00:31:58,410 --> 00:32:01,860 they're well ensconced with clients, You know, sports 585 00:32:01,870 --> 00:32:04,960 tickets as, you know, being the big currency, think, well, 586 00:32:04,970 --> 00:32:07,830 that's not everybody's cup of tea to, you know, go to a 587 00:32:07,840 --> 00:32:10,110 sporting event. But you know, if you're a first 588 00:32:10,120 --> 00:32:12,890 year lawyer, who do you know that senior enough that you're 589 00:32:12,900 --> 00:32:16,050 going to get front row seats at some basketball game? 590 00:32:16,110 --> 00:32:18,460 That's not going to happen. And it's too intimidating. 591 00:32:18,540 --> 00:32:20,850 And also the senior person's going to go. 592 00:32:20,860 --> 00:32:23,850 I've been asked out by a second year lawyer at firm X. 593 00:32:23,860 --> 00:32:26,150 You know, they're going to go, no, I don't see how that's 594 00:32:26,160 --> 00:32:28,310 helping me. So I think there's a law firm, 595 00:32:28,320 --> 00:32:31,490 but this is an example to me of where I think law firms need to 596 00:32:31,560 --> 00:32:36,720 help people more to understand and prepare for the experience. 597 00:32:36,770 --> 00:32:39,920 Then they can take it. But it's not something any of us 598 00:32:39,930 --> 00:32:43,660 ever did before we were in law firms and learned well, we were 599 00:32:43,670 --> 00:32:46,760 supposed to do it. And the senior lawyers forget 600 00:32:46,770 --> 00:32:49,680 what it was like when they were first or second year, like you 601 00:32:49,690 --> 00:32:52,820 don't know anybody. I said, get that list of 602 00:32:52,830 --> 00:32:57,060 everyone in your law school graduating class and find out 603 00:32:57,070 --> 00:33:00,810 where they are now and keep in touch because those are the 604 00:33:00,820 --> 00:33:05,110 lawyers who four years from now, they may move from firm X in 605 00:33:05,120 --> 00:33:08,910 house at TD Bank. Wow, chatted them up and had a 606 00:33:08,920 --> 00:33:12,110 coffee for four years. And then, you know, Congrats on 607 00:33:12,120 --> 00:33:15,140 your new position. And maybe your firm has never 608 00:33:15,150 --> 00:33:18,810 done any work for TD Bank and they do have a huge in-house 609 00:33:18,860 --> 00:33:22,190 group and council. But there's how an opportunity 610 00:33:22,200 --> 00:33:25,230 is created. It's not created by calling up 611 00:33:25,240 --> 00:33:27,110 someone cold who you've never met. 612 00:33:27,120 --> 00:33:29,070 Don't do work for saying let's get together. 613 00:33:29,140 --> 00:33:32,290 I think, I guess I'm rambling here, but it's like any skill 614 00:33:32,350 --> 00:33:36,060 that can be learned but has to be titrated to where you are, 615 00:33:36,070 --> 00:33:39,340 what you're capable of. And I think in this case, the 616 00:33:39,350 --> 00:33:43,090 senior partners in this firm were pleased with seeing them 617 00:33:43,100 --> 00:33:45,300 engaged. And I said, you know, and at the 618 00:33:45,310 --> 00:33:48,180 end, because they partners applauded them some money for 619 00:33:48,190 --> 00:33:50,340 this event. You want a nice little report 620 00:33:50,350 --> 00:33:53,590 that goes in so they remember you did this and they involve 621 00:33:53,600 --> 00:33:55,600 them in it. Budget wise, you now know what 622 00:33:55,610 --> 00:33:58,680 these things cost, so you'll know how many people you need to 623 00:33:58,690 --> 00:33:59,740 have. Yeah. 624 00:33:59,750 --> 00:34:02,310 And I think that, like, I saw a lot of confidence. 625 00:34:02,320 --> 00:34:04,860 They were really pleased at the way it went. 626 00:34:05,880 --> 00:34:09,389 Talking about the in the same general topic, but as I was 627 00:34:09,400 --> 00:34:12,850 researching for this episode, I saw that one of your advice is 628 00:34:12,860 --> 00:34:16,380 in the past was about going with your gut and forgetting about 629 00:34:16,389 --> 00:34:20,550 security and career path. And my main audience right now 630 00:34:20,620 --> 00:34:24,210 is young lawyers, either first, second year associates or people 631 00:34:24,219 --> 00:34:26,010 who are finishing up their law school. 632 00:34:26,080 --> 00:34:29,730 So it's that that age range. And I'd love to ask you, for 633 00:34:29,739 --> 00:34:33,370 those who are listening to this podcast today and who want to 634 00:34:33,380 --> 00:34:36,120 build a career that feels meaningful, even if they don't 635 00:34:36,130 --> 00:34:39,020 follow that straight line, is there any additional advice 636 00:34:39,030 --> 00:34:41,739 you'd like to give the audience? Well, I say that very 637 00:34:41,750 --> 00:34:45,400 specifically, and I would never have character characterized 638 00:34:45,409 --> 00:34:49,100 myself as a big risk taker, but there's sometimes when something 639 00:34:49,110 --> 00:34:51,920 affects your gut. So it was like me in teaching. 640 00:34:52,030 --> 00:34:54,480 I like teaching. I found teaching rewarding. 641 00:34:54,489 --> 00:34:56,560 It was something that I've always wanted to do. 642 00:34:56,610 --> 00:35:00,800 But after five years, I thought, really, do I want to do this for 643 00:35:00,810 --> 00:35:03,360 the next 30 years? And the answer was no. 644 00:35:03,430 --> 00:35:06,210 And so I said, well, I'm quitting. 645 00:35:06,290 --> 00:35:11,130 People's reaction to that was for me, you're leaving teaching 646 00:35:11,140 --> 00:35:14,150 and all those holidays in a secure position and you're going 647 00:35:14,160 --> 00:35:16,730 to go back to school. So you're going to have like 648 00:35:16,780 --> 00:35:18,630 drop in income and all this sort of thing. 649 00:35:18,720 --> 00:35:22,930 And but I knew in my gut it was right for me, Although, as I 650 00:35:22,940 --> 00:35:25,210 say, I didn't hate, there are people who hate teaching. 651 00:35:25,220 --> 00:35:27,530 I did not hate teaching and actually have done a lot of 652 00:35:27,540 --> 00:35:30,270 teaching and being my legal career too. 653 00:35:30,320 --> 00:35:35,870 So I think I see with young lawyers is it's so competitive 654 00:35:35,920 --> 00:35:39,410 and you're working on getting into a good firm and then you're 655 00:35:39,420 --> 00:35:42,400 working on, you know, getting good reviews and advancing and 656 00:35:42,410 --> 00:35:45,370 you're working on trying to be a partner, etcetera. 657 00:35:45,380 --> 00:35:50,970 And I see people who are really unhappy, smart people, but 658 00:35:50,980 --> 00:35:54,150 they're not moving. And whether it's because the 659 00:35:54,160 --> 00:35:59,780 prize of being hired at a law firm is so big, they can't, 660 00:35:59,820 --> 00:36:03,030 well, maybe I'm going to look around and do something else. 661 00:36:03,080 --> 00:36:06,730 So that's what I mean by go. I could have stayed in teaching 662 00:36:06,740 --> 00:36:10,420 and I would have, I think, become unhappy and found it 663 00:36:10,430 --> 00:36:14,060 routine after a certain period. And I did not find that in my 664 00:36:14,070 --> 00:36:16,540 law career. So for me personally, the 665 00:36:16,550 --> 00:36:20,020 impetus was I need something that is engaging me better. 666 00:36:20,070 --> 00:36:23,780 I think in law people find they either don't like people in 667 00:36:23,790 --> 00:36:27,610 their firm, they don't see their firm is going anywhere and those 668 00:36:27,620 --> 00:36:29,800 things make them unhappy, or they're getting, you know, I 669 00:36:29,810 --> 00:36:32,260 think we're sort of improving now, maybe with artificial 670 00:36:32,270 --> 00:36:34,830 intelligence and other things, but, you know, huge document 671 00:36:34,840 --> 00:36:36,630 cases. So I went to law school. 672 00:36:36,640 --> 00:36:40,170 But now what I do for 10 hours today is I review documents for 673 00:36:40,180 --> 00:36:42,810 this big litigation. I am bored to tears. 674 00:36:42,860 --> 00:36:45,990 I've lost the big picture. I don't wanna do this is not 675 00:36:46,000 --> 00:36:49,370 what I thought I'd be doing. So I think there's two things 676 00:36:49,380 --> 00:36:52,950 going with your gut is law. Younger lawyers are afraid to 677 00:36:52,960 --> 00:36:54,830 complain because they don't want that label. 678 00:36:54,840 --> 00:36:57,940 But I find that squeaky wheel gets the grease. 679 00:36:57,950 --> 00:37:00,470 So that's a true aphorism for law. 680 00:37:00,480 --> 00:37:03,690 If you say, look, I'm happy to help on document review. 681 00:37:03,740 --> 00:37:06,250 I know we need it. X is an important client. 682 00:37:06,300 --> 00:37:10,650 I'm prepared to do this for a maximum of three months and I'm 683 00:37:10,660 --> 00:37:13,810 prepared to train someone halfway through that to bring 684 00:37:13,820 --> 00:37:16,010 on. But after that, I'd really like 685 00:37:16,020 --> 00:37:19,030 more litigation opportunities. Young lawyers don't say that, 686 00:37:19,040 --> 00:37:22,520 but they they're unhappy and they don't go away. 687 00:37:22,530 --> 00:37:24,870 So that would be 1 case. Another case where I think 688 00:37:24,880 --> 00:37:27,630 people would need to be braver is they will be in a 689 00:37:27,640 --> 00:37:30,150 relationship, as I averted to earlier, where they're really 690 00:37:30,160 --> 00:37:32,900 the good support person for a more senior lawyer. 691 00:37:32,910 --> 00:37:35,050 They're getting lots of praise from that little thanks. 692 00:37:35,060 --> 00:37:36,290 What would I have done without you? 693 00:37:36,300 --> 00:37:39,230 Boy, this is a great summary. You thought of that thought of 694 00:37:39,240 --> 00:37:42,450 this, and I call that perhaps a slightly sexist term, but sort 695 00:37:42,460 --> 00:37:46,740 of the handmaiden syndrome. I am, you need me and look how 696 00:37:46,750 --> 00:37:48,860 well I'm doing and you're praising me. 697 00:37:48,910 --> 00:37:52,720 But at the same time that lawyer is sort of feeling, well, wait, 698 00:37:52,730 --> 00:37:54,700 I'm making someone else look great. 699 00:37:54,770 --> 00:37:58,000 I'm not really working on what I need to do. 700 00:37:58,050 --> 00:38:01,840 So I think asking yourself, am I doing work that I'm, I'm 701 00:38:01,850 --> 00:38:04,760 personally funding, rewarding and everybody has to do some 702 00:38:04,770 --> 00:38:08,700 crappy work and law and not for sure, but have I allowed that to 703 00:38:08,710 --> 00:38:12,080 take over my life? And I do say to lawyers when I'm 704 00:38:12,090 --> 00:38:15,570 working with other law firms to have somebody on a document 705 00:38:15,580 --> 00:38:17,630 review file for six months or more. 706 00:38:17,700 --> 00:38:19,990 Why? Well, it's easier, but you know, 707 00:38:20,060 --> 00:38:22,750 if you're able to say to people, this is a 2 month assignment, we 708 00:38:22,760 --> 00:38:26,690 realize it's a sacrifice that we would hope that at the end of 709 00:38:26,700 --> 00:38:29,390 that we'll bring somebody else in so you're not trapped. 710 00:38:29,400 --> 00:38:32,630 And then at the same thing, if someone is working exclusively 711 00:38:32,640 --> 00:38:35,590 with ex, there's learning, there's benefit in that. 712 00:38:35,640 --> 00:38:39,210 But is there a point at which if the two of them don't realize 713 00:38:39,220 --> 00:38:42,440 this is not actually that great? The firm sort of steps in and 714 00:38:42,450 --> 00:38:44,680 says that it up. But back to gut. 715 00:38:44,690 --> 00:38:47,740 You hope that the handmaiden, so to speak, would be the person 716 00:38:47,750 --> 00:38:50,280 would say, you know, I really, really enjoy working with you, 717 00:38:50,290 --> 00:38:52,980 but I think it's time for me to work with more people because I 718 00:38:52,990 --> 00:38:55,470 want to develop some other skills and styles. 719 00:38:55,480 --> 00:38:59,620 So fear is not the best motivator for a satisfactory 720 00:38:59,630 --> 00:39:01,940 life. Amazing folks, your Rep up 721 00:39:01,950 --> 00:39:03,980 today's episode. I wanted to ask you you've 722 00:39:03,990 --> 00:39:07,560 helped shape how the legal profession talks about inclusion 723 00:39:07,570 --> 00:39:11,270 and leadership, and they wanted to know what legacy we hope to 724 00:39:11,280 --> 00:39:13,350 leave for the next generation of lawyers. 725 00:39:13,420 --> 00:39:15,850 Well, particularly of course for women. 726 00:39:15,860 --> 00:39:20,590 I think women bring so much to the table in the way that they 727 00:39:20,600 --> 00:39:23,620 approach things and the way they can juggle many, many balls, 728 00:39:23,630 --> 00:39:27,570 which may include a very rich personal life as well as a legal 729 00:39:27,640 --> 00:39:30,450 life. And law firms are changing 730 00:39:30,510 --> 00:39:32,870 glacially. But to see more women in 731 00:39:32,880 --> 00:39:37,230 management, more women dealing with clients, more women holding 732 00:39:37,240 --> 00:39:39,390 positions of responsibility, etcetera. 733 00:39:39,440 --> 00:39:44,400 I think the awareness of the profession on this topic, you 734 00:39:44,410 --> 00:39:48,300 know, since I, my first year of practice was 1981. 735 00:39:48,310 --> 00:39:52,380 So, you know, we are well, many years past that now and things 736 00:39:52,390 --> 00:39:55,500 are changing. And I would hope that my legacy 737 00:39:55,510 --> 00:40:00,210 is to inspire people that, yes, you can't like, you know, I 738 00:40:00,220 --> 00:40:02,920 ended up being managing partner with my firm. 739 00:40:02,970 --> 00:40:06,400 It wasn't raising these issues didn't make me say, oh, well, 740 00:40:06,410 --> 00:40:09,120 there's a person, you know, we don't want her around. 741 00:40:09,190 --> 00:40:12,140 But I think it showed my firm that. 742 00:40:12,240 --> 00:40:16,190 Whatever idea I had mine focusing on women, there were 743 00:40:16,200 --> 00:40:19,510 things that we could do and how you manage people and not 744 00:40:19,520 --> 00:40:21,400 everybody agreed with me. There were many people who 745 00:40:21,410 --> 00:40:22,910 thought this was the dumbest thing in the world. 746 00:40:22,920 --> 00:40:25,850 But you know, could see that there might be some business 747 00:40:25,860 --> 00:40:27,980 benefits. You know how to pick your best. 748 00:40:27,990 --> 00:40:32,830 So I think that the legacy I leave is speak up, speak out 749 00:40:32,900 --> 00:40:36,720 because feeling unhappy or seeing a boy, it would be a lot 750 00:40:36,730 --> 00:40:39,770 better if we did this. But you don't tell anybody takes 751 00:40:39,780 --> 00:40:41,810 courage. And I had the advantage of being 752 00:40:41,820 --> 00:40:45,820 a bit older, having gone as a mature student of law school and 753 00:40:45,890 --> 00:40:48,540 having the confidence that I could get a job. 754 00:40:48,550 --> 00:40:51,340 If this firm didn't like me, I could get a job elsewhere. 755 00:40:51,350 --> 00:40:54,600 That was a good cushion. But without that, I hope my 756 00:40:54,610 --> 00:40:57,300 legacy is to say this is benefits us all. 757 00:40:57,310 --> 00:40:59,270 It makes for a stronger law firm. 758 00:40:59,310 --> 00:41:01,990 It makes people feel more engaged, which makes them feel 759 00:41:02,000 --> 00:41:05,200 more positive about the firm. So making changes. 760 00:41:05,210 --> 00:41:08,020 And I focused on women. There's many other, you know, if 761 00:41:08,030 --> 00:41:12,410 you just look at not only gender issues, but racial issues, 762 00:41:12,420 --> 00:41:15,470 etcetera, in law firms where you're looking at equity 763 00:41:15,480 --> 00:41:17,410 initiatives and diversity and so on. 764 00:41:17,500 --> 00:41:21,970 Those are all very big cultural things for law firms and they 765 00:41:21,980 --> 00:41:25,530 need to be led and they need to be led by people who understand 766 00:41:25,540 --> 00:41:28,850 what they're doing. So I hope focusing I could focus 767 00:41:28,860 --> 00:41:30,610 on women. That was a big issue then. 768 00:41:30,700 --> 00:41:34,170 I was not denying that there were other issues, but I knew I 769 00:41:34,180 --> 00:41:37,250 couldn't be spread too thin. I had to get into one issue, 770 00:41:37,260 --> 00:41:40,030 sink my teeth in it, and I guess that's advice. 771 00:41:40,130 --> 00:41:44,140 You may not want my issue, you may have your own issue, but 772 00:41:44,150 --> 00:41:47,830 make sure that you go deep rather than than broad so that 773 00:41:47,910 --> 00:41:50,920 that would be what advice I would give to young lawyers. 774 00:41:51,010 --> 00:41:53,010 Amazing. Thank you so much for taking the 775 00:41:53,210 --> 00:41:56,800 time to join today's podcast and thank you all so much for tuning 776 00:41:56,810 --> 00:41:57,730 in and listening. Great. 777 00:41:57,740 --> 00:41:59,430 Well, thank you. Appreciate it talking to you.