1 00:00:12,880 --> 00:00:14,870 Welcome to studying law Around the world. 2 00:00:15,020 --> 00:00:17,870 I'm Claudio Claus. In each episode, I talk with 3 00:00:17,880 --> 00:00:20,850 lawyers, law students, and professors from different parts 4 00:00:20,860 --> 00:00:24,730 of the world to talk about legal education, careers, and what the 5 00:00:24,740 --> 00:00:26,410 profession looks like in real life. 6 00:00:26,420 --> 00:00:29,470 We talk about the hard parts, the surprises and the decisions. 7 00:00:29,480 --> 00:00:32,270 That shaped their paths. Whether you're planning to study 8 00:00:32,280 --> 00:00:35,520 abroad, thinking about working in another legal system, or just 9 00:00:35,530 --> 00:00:39,650 curious about how law works around the world, this podcast. 10 00:00:39,660 --> 00:00:44,540 Is for you. Today I have the opportunity to 11 00:00:44,550 --> 00:00:49,640 interview Gary Mitchell, who is the founder of On Track Coach. 12 00:00:49,710 --> 00:00:53,280 He has an impressive career spanning 30 years in the 13 00:00:53,290 --> 00:00:55,740 business world. He has become a beacon for 14 00:00:55,750 --> 00:00:59,020 lawyers and law firms seeking the rapid achievement of their 15 00:00:59,030 --> 00:01:01,250 goals. Thank you so much for making the 16 00:01:01,260 --> 00:01:04,300 time to be here today, Gary. My pleasure, Claudio. 17 00:01:04,310 --> 00:01:05,800 It's it's great to be with you today. 18 00:01:06,530 --> 00:01:08,300 I appreciate it and she started us off. 19 00:01:08,310 --> 00:01:11,460 I I'd love to ask you to introduce yourself and share a 20 00:01:11,470 --> 00:01:14,440 little bit about, you know, your career and and how you first 21 00:01:14,450 --> 00:01:16,380 found your way into coaching. Lawyers. 22 00:01:16,690 --> 00:01:19,520 OK, I'm gonna try and make this brief uncharacteristically, 23 00:01:20,340 --> 00:01:22,460 because it's a very it's a very unique story. 24 00:01:22,790 --> 00:01:26,960 So looking back even as back as far as high school, I was always 25 00:01:26,970 --> 00:01:31,190 fascinated with your own history, sociology, politics, 26 00:01:31,550 --> 00:01:34,040 basically everything around people, right. 27 00:01:34,470 --> 00:01:36,890 Theatre and music were my first passion. 28 00:01:37,670 --> 00:01:40,830 I started my first business in Toronto and built a national 29 00:01:40,840 --> 00:01:43,400 event. I started the business at 25 no 30 00:01:43,410 --> 00:01:46,340 experience, got my hands dirty, made a lot of mistakes. 31 00:01:46,350 --> 00:01:48,560 That's how most officers learn, right? 32 00:01:48,870 --> 00:01:52,150 And I found myself out in Vancouver as a result. 33 00:01:52,340 --> 00:01:53,970 And then I got involved in politics. 34 00:01:53,980 --> 00:01:58,090 Fast forward, I ran for Parliament in 2004 and I always 35 00:01:58,100 --> 00:02:02,950 say thankfully I lost and I can't imagine anyway. 36 00:02:03,020 --> 00:02:07,030 So the following election, I was approached by a lawyer to run 37 00:02:07,040 --> 00:02:09,880 his nomination campaign in the same writing that I just don't 38 00:02:09,889 --> 00:02:13,470 accounted. So I dropped everything 10 days 39 00:02:13,480 --> 00:02:16,440 Sprint to the nomination, oversaw the building of a 40 00:02:16,450 --> 00:02:20,410 website, hosted an event, sent out a Mailer, wrote his speech, 41 00:02:20,420 --> 00:02:23,780 coached him on that and he won the nomination and he was 42 00:02:23,790 --> 00:02:26,010 determined to have me as his campaign manager. 43 00:02:26,020 --> 00:02:29,380 And I was like no way. I didn't want to go anywhere 44 00:02:29,390 --> 00:02:30,680 near that. Anyway. 45 00:02:30,690 --> 00:02:32,320 I ended up being his campaign manager. 46 00:02:32,590 --> 00:02:37,030 So Coach Tim and it was an extended campaign that went over 47 00:02:37,040 --> 00:02:39,870 2526. Paul Martin was the Prime 48 00:02:39,880 --> 00:02:42,410 Minister was a minority. So we weren't sure, you know, 49 00:02:42,420 --> 00:02:44,050 when we were things were gonna go. 50 00:02:44,920 --> 00:02:48,710 So it was a very challenging experience, but it was also the 51 00:02:48,720 --> 00:02:52,110 most fulfilling experience I'd had up to that time in my 52 00:02:52,120 --> 00:02:54,560 career. I had always been the guy. 53 00:02:54,700 --> 00:02:56,990 OK. So now I have the opportunity to 54 00:02:57,000 --> 00:02:59,330 be the the guy or the person behind the person. 55 00:02:59,340 --> 00:03:03,290 And it was phenomenal, Claudio, to see the transformation of 56 00:03:03,300 --> 00:03:07,150 another person as a result of some of the advice and guidance 57 00:03:07,160 --> 00:03:09,150 I was giving him. And it was like he was like a 58 00:03:09,160 --> 00:03:11,390 sponge. He he went from zero and I mean 59 00:03:11,400 --> 00:03:13,010 zero. And he'd be first to admit it, 60 00:03:13,200 --> 00:03:18,630 blank slate, no experience whatsoever to beating 2 veteran 61 00:03:18,900 --> 00:03:23,100 politicians on a live television debate just days before the 62 00:03:23,110 --> 00:03:25,020 election. Like it was amazing. 63 00:03:25,410 --> 00:03:28,630 Now during this process, his best friend, a former lawyer, 64 00:03:28,870 --> 00:03:31,460 said, Gary, you've I've seen what you've been doing with the 65 00:03:31,470 --> 00:03:33,020 candidate. I won't mention his name. 66 00:03:33,450 --> 00:03:35,980 And it's remarkable. Like you've got an app to work 67 00:03:35,990 --> 00:03:39,380 with highly intellectual people and help them understand and 68 00:03:39,390 --> 00:03:44,100 break down the simple practical steps of business and marketing 69 00:03:44,150 --> 00:03:46,680 people skills. And he said the legal industry 70 00:03:46,970 --> 00:03:51,280 needs this. They need marketing support of 71 00:03:51,290 --> 00:03:54,760 business development support, all the same skills, soft skills 72 00:03:54,770 --> 00:03:58,140 other politician may use, right Speaking, networking, building 73 00:03:58,150 --> 00:04:02,180 relationships. So after I picked my jaw up off 74 00:04:02,190 --> 00:04:05,350 the floor of thinking, what, like the legal industry has been 75 00:04:05,360 --> 00:04:07,000 around forever. They don't know how to, they 76 00:04:07,010 --> 00:04:10,450 haven't figured this out yet. So I've been involved in 77 00:04:10,460 --> 00:04:11,950 politics, as I said, for many years. 78 00:04:11,960 --> 00:04:14,410 So I knew a lot of lawyers. So that was my first step as I 79 00:04:14,420 --> 00:04:17,410 reached out to them and I asked them for their feedback and some 80 00:04:17,420 --> 00:04:20,130 of them gave me honest feedback and some of them didn't holding 81 00:04:20,140 --> 00:04:23,050 their cards close to the chest. But they made many introductions 82 00:04:23,060 --> 00:04:26,970 to legal marketers in Vancouver. I went out and I, I did research 83 00:04:26,980 --> 00:04:28,850 in person. I also went online. 84 00:04:29,200 --> 00:04:32,830 And at that point, back in 2006, I literally was one of the first 85 00:04:33,040 --> 00:04:36,210 business coaches in the legal industry, definitely the first 86 00:04:36,220 --> 00:04:39,910 in Canada and one of the early ones, early pioneers in North 87 00:04:39,920 --> 00:04:42,120 America. It was really brand spanking 88 00:04:42,130 --> 00:04:44,050 new. Even today, some people don't 89 00:04:44,060 --> 00:04:46,960 even know it exists, right? And there's tons now, there's 90 00:04:46,970 --> 00:04:50,350 tons of competitors, which I find is a great thing because 91 00:04:50,360 --> 00:04:53,160 back then it was the only person shouting from the mountain top. 92 00:04:53,250 --> 00:04:55,920 And now there's like, you know, a whole stream of it's an 93 00:04:55,930 --> 00:04:58,700 industry, a business coaching in the legal industry. 94 00:04:58,770 --> 00:05:02,010 Firms have a roster of coaches. I mean, it's come a long way in 95 00:05:02,020 --> 00:05:05,020 20 years. So that's how I fell into this. 96 00:05:05,030 --> 00:05:07,290 I really fell into it. And it was very serendipitous. 97 00:05:07,950 --> 00:05:11,720 I just have to say one thing. My 4th book is coming out and 98 00:05:11,730 --> 00:05:15,140 it's a publisher in Toronto. And the Co publisher literally 99 00:05:15,150 --> 00:05:19,290 is the brother, also a lawyer of the lawyer, the best friend of 100 00:05:19,300 --> 00:05:21,530 the candidate that gave me the idea to coach lawyers in the 101 00:05:21,540 --> 00:05:25,120 first like talk about the serendipity, right? 102 00:05:25,170 --> 00:05:26,920 Full circle. I can hardly wait. 103 00:05:26,930 --> 00:05:29,740 The books coming out in June. And I, when I found that out, I, 104 00:05:29,750 --> 00:05:34,700 I just was like, whoa, that is like, you can't write that, you 105 00:05:34,710 --> 00:05:36,780 know? Oh, that's amazing. 106 00:05:36,790 --> 00:05:38,360 That's amazing. Definitely can't claim for 107 00:05:38,370 --> 00:05:41,440 something like that to happen and especially with the no 20 108 00:05:41,450 --> 00:05:46,460 years of of a history on that. But that's such an incredible 109 00:05:46,470 --> 00:05:48,300 story. I'm I'm curious here. 110 00:05:49,190 --> 00:05:52,490 You just mentioned, you know, that you got this suggestion, 111 00:05:52,500 --> 00:05:54,950 you notice that the legal industry had all those, those 112 00:05:54,960 --> 00:05:59,410 gaps, those needs. So I'm curious to say, to, to 113 00:05:59,460 --> 00:06:01,890 hear what you say. Actually, I I read on your 114 00:06:01,900 --> 00:06:05,210 website that you say that lawyers are great thinkers, but 115 00:06:05,220 --> 00:06:07,690 those same traits can also hold them back. 116 00:06:07,740 --> 00:06:10,510 I devote a whole chapter to this because it's really the the 117 00:06:10,520 --> 00:06:14,430 lawyer mind is 1 of analytical critical risk averse. 118 00:06:14,480 --> 00:06:16,470 I mean, This is why we hire lawyers, right? 119 00:06:16,480 --> 00:06:19,130 They're going to find the problem or prevent the problem 120 00:06:19,180 --> 00:06:23,420 or do what they can to alleviate the problem or make it go away. 121 00:06:23,430 --> 00:06:27,020 They're problem solvers, but in that they're always looking on 122 00:06:27,030 --> 00:06:29,530 the negative side of things. They're looking for what's wrong 123 00:06:29,540 --> 00:06:32,600 with things, right? The business mind, an 124 00:06:32,610 --> 00:06:35,280 entrepreneurial mind is always looking for opportunities, 125 00:06:35,290 --> 00:06:38,120 always looking for where, where can this go? 126 00:06:38,170 --> 00:06:41,160 It's a complete, it's completely competing. 127 00:06:41,370 --> 00:06:45,810 What makes a great lawyer holds them back as a business person 128 00:06:45,910 --> 00:06:47,730 and vice versa. And I've heard this from them as 129 00:06:47,740 --> 00:06:49,140 well. Like I'm not the only one to say 130 00:06:49,150 --> 00:06:52,200 this. So basically that. 131 00:06:52,210 --> 00:06:55,300 And it's basically left brain functions, right, analytical, 132 00:06:55,310 --> 00:06:58,610 critical, all of that. And what I teach them is I teach 133 00:06:58,620 --> 00:07:01,580 them how to exercise more of their right brain functions, 134 00:07:01,590 --> 00:07:05,110 like the the creative, the innovative. 135 00:07:05,900 --> 00:07:10,090 Now with that comes a lot of challenges in their world. 136 00:07:10,100 --> 00:07:13,900 Lawyers like to have control. They don't like surprises. 137 00:07:14,470 --> 00:07:17,660 They're perfectionists. I mean, there's a whole string 138 00:07:17,670 --> 00:07:20,820 of personality traits. I always say, like all humans 139 00:07:20,830 --> 00:07:24,880 have these personality traits. But a lawyer is like a regular 140 00:07:24,890 --> 00:07:27,860 human times 100 when it comes to some of these. 141 00:07:28,310 --> 00:07:31,800 And again, it's not a criticism. It's an observation of working 142 00:07:31,810 --> 00:07:34,220 with them for 20 years. And it's purely what we want 143 00:07:34,230 --> 00:07:37,140 when we hire them, right? We hire them for that kind of 144 00:07:37,150 --> 00:07:41,400 critical analytical thinking. So that's the challenge is 145 00:07:41,410 --> 00:07:44,320 helping them understand that it's a different way of 146 00:07:44,330 --> 00:07:46,780 thinking, right? It's a different way of thinking 147 00:07:46,790 --> 00:07:49,530 in business. And the only, there's no one in 148 00:07:49,540 --> 00:07:51,980 business that can honestly say they haven't made a ton of 149 00:07:51,990 --> 00:07:54,440 mistakes. Whereas I don't find, you won't 150 00:07:54,450 --> 00:07:56,580 find many lawyers that will admit they made a ton of 151 00:07:56,590 --> 00:07:59,350 mistakes, right? Usually they don't make many 152 00:08:00,110 --> 00:08:03,440 because they can't, but in business, you can't move forward 153 00:08:03,490 --> 00:08:05,860 unless you're making mistakes. So this is how we, I mean, I 154 00:08:05,870 --> 00:08:09,210 know I've made a ton of them and that's how I've learned, right? 155 00:08:09,220 --> 00:08:11,280 That's how entrepreneurs and entrepreneurs. 156 00:08:11,290 --> 00:08:13,030 I'm not afraid of making a mistake. 157 00:08:13,100 --> 00:08:15,280 There's another, another challenge. 158 00:08:15,430 --> 00:08:20,850 Lawyers are, are like scared beyond belief of making mistake. 159 00:08:21,200 --> 00:08:23,850 And so this holds them back again in the business side 160 00:08:24,010 --> 00:08:26,190 because they're going to make mistakes, right? 161 00:08:26,200 --> 00:08:29,470 People make mistakes. And so it's a really, it's, it's 162 00:08:29,480 --> 00:08:32,929 an interesting challenge. I enjoy it because usually by 163 00:08:32,940 --> 00:08:35,690 the time a client comes to me, they know they need help. 164 00:08:35,700 --> 00:08:39,230 They passed that Rubicon, so to speak, right? 165 00:08:39,320 --> 00:08:41,850 They know they need help. Now they're trying to figure out 166 00:08:41,860 --> 00:08:45,330 where or who, how, how are they going to get the help? 167 00:08:45,420 --> 00:08:48,530 But they have to actually pass over that bridge of they need 168 00:08:48,540 --> 00:08:51,530 help to get to the next level, whatever that is in their 169 00:08:51,540 --> 00:08:54,020 career, right? Like recently, last year, I made 170 00:08:54,030 --> 00:08:56,890 the decision earlier in the year after 19 1/2 years. 171 00:08:57,860 --> 00:09:00,570 I'm strictly working with law firm owners now. 172 00:09:00,680 --> 00:09:03,930 Like I may work with some of their staff, but my lead client 173 00:09:03,940 --> 00:09:07,800 is the law firm owner looking to grow their small law firms. 174 00:09:07,810 --> 00:09:11,190 So it's entrepreneur, entrepreneur, and I truly love 175 00:09:11,200 --> 00:09:13,910 it. I saw something along the lines 176 00:09:13,920 --> 00:09:17,810 of part of your work is helping lawyers to build a firm around 177 00:09:17,820 --> 00:09:20,510 their life and not the other way around. 178 00:09:20,680 --> 00:09:23,850 I'd love to hear a little more about what does that look like 179 00:09:23,860 --> 00:09:26,410 in practice, you know, for a busier homeowner. 180 00:09:26,980 --> 00:09:30,630 OK, well first of all, the title of the book, it's called the end 181 00:09:30,640 --> 00:09:34,870 approach, Growing a successful law firm and gaining more 182 00:09:34,880 --> 00:09:38,770 freedom because that's where it all starts with it and mindset. 183 00:09:39,020 --> 00:09:43,470 So instead of I'm going to do this or that, I can, I'll show 184 00:09:43,480 --> 00:09:46,490 them, you know what's possible. You can have a successful 185 00:09:46,500 --> 00:09:49,900 business and a life. You don't have to be chained to 186 00:09:49,910 --> 00:09:52,950 the desk or change the office working 80 hours a week. 187 00:09:53,040 --> 00:09:54,950 I've had a few clients actually out of strong. 188 00:09:54,960 --> 00:09:58,680 You're in Toronto right now. We record this who spend the 189 00:09:58,690 --> 00:10:01,950 winters in Costa Rica. They figured a way out how to do 190 00:10:01,960 --> 00:10:03,200 it. We're recording this. 191 00:10:03,210 --> 00:10:06,190 I'm in Mexico, I spend my winters in Mexico working from 192 00:10:06,200 --> 00:10:08,910 here. Now, litigators obviously have a 193 00:10:08,920 --> 00:10:11,270 little bit more of a challenge with the freedom side because 194 00:10:11,280 --> 00:10:14,930 they have to be in physically in court, but they're not in court 195 00:10:14,940 --> 00:10:16,500 every week. They're not in court every 196 00:10:16,510 --> 00:10:18,470 month, right? So they can move around. 197 00:10:18,480 --> 00:10:21,690 They can, they can flexible. The challenge though, is to 198 00:10:21,700 --> 00:10:24,450 here's the challenge. In order to gain the freedom, 199 00:10:24,520 --> 00:10:27,570 they have to let go of some of their control and that's where 200 00:10:27,580 --> 00:10:30,090 they need the help. Lawyers love to have control 201 00:10:30,100 --> 00:10:32,070 because they're perfectionists, right? 202 00:10:32,340 --> 00:10:36,150 And so I, I move them a little bit along. 203 00:10:36,160 --> 00:10:39,590 I never pushed my clients out of their, their comfort zone. 204 00:10:39,740 --> 00:10:43,450 I kind of move the goal posts a little bit at a time, gently 205 00:10:43,530 --> 00:10:46,490 teasing them, expanding the the comfort zone so they understand 206 00:10:46,500 --> 00:10:51,070 that to grow and create the life that they want, it has to go 207 00:10:51,080 --> 00:10:53,370 beyond themselves. They need to build a team. 208 00:10:53,740 --> 00:10:56,090 So that's basically that in a nutshell. 209 00:10:56,100 --> 00:10:59,150 If I were to say one way how to get the freedom, it's you need a 210 00:10:59,160 --> 00:11:01,710 team around you. None of us can do all this on 211 00:11:01,720 --> 00:11:04,440 our own. Very, very interesting. 212 00:11:04,510 --> 00:11:07,480 And and something else that I saw is that you talk a lot about 213 00:11:07,550 --> 00:11:11,360 the the mindset shifts. So I wanted to hear a little 214 00:11:11,370 --> 00:11:14,130 more about your experience. What are some of the hardest 215 00:11:14,140 --> 00:11:17,640 changes that lawyers need to make when they start thinking 216 00:11:17,650 --> 00:11:19,560 like a business owner? You just talked about the 217 00:11:19,570 --> 00:11:21,810 control. Yeah, Well, that's, it's like, 218 00:11:21,820 --> 00:11:24,800 I'll repeat, yes, I'll repeat myself, because it really is 219 00:11:24,810 --> 00:11:28,790 about control and perfectionism. They have to drop those. 220 00:11:28,800 --> 00:11:32,380 They have to let them go. And to build a team, obviously I 221 00:11:32,390 --> 00:11:35,190 show them how to build the best possible team so that it's 222 00:11:35,200 --> 00:11:38,310 easier to let go of control because there's trust, right. 223 00:11:38,320 --> 00:11:39,730 We're going to work. We're going to, we're going to 224 00:11:39,740 --> 00:11:41,490 hire smart. We're going to hire the right 225 00:11:41,500 --> 00:11:42,950 people. We're going to get them in the 226 00:11:42,960 --> 00:11:46,010 right rules and we're going to give them the right support to 227 00:11:46,020 --> 00:11:49,480 grow and learn. So it's not just, you know, and 228 00:11:49,490 --> 00:11:51,410 oh, yeah, we're going to have a team and it's all going to be, 229 00:11:51,420 --> 00:11:53,870 you know, hunky Dory. No, there's a lot of work behind 230 00:11:53,880 --> 00:11:57,620 this, but when it's done right, that's when the freedom occurs. 231 00:11:57,770 --> 00:12:01,700 But they have to like it's again, it's that it's a it's a 232 00:12:01,710 --> 00:12:03,900 high wire act, Claudio. It's not. 233 00:12:04,610 --> 00:12:08,220 I don't move them from from lawyer mine to entrepreneur mind 234 00:12:08,230 --> 00:12:10,540 overnight. It takes time and depending on 235 00:12:10,550 --> 00:12:14,070 where they are in their journey, right, how many years they've 236 00:12:14,080 --> 00:12:15,940 been in. I mean, I love to have somebody 237 00:12:15,950 --> 00:12:19,380 who's been in at least five years and and and level got into 238 00:12:19,390 --> 00:12:22,240 some level of success already, because then they've had some 239 00:12:22,250 --> 00:12:24,350 failures as well. They've had some stumbling 240 00:12:24,360 --> 00:12:26,740 blocks. So they know what they know and 241 00:12:26,750 --> 00:12:28,780 they know what they don't know. Well, they actually don't know 242 00:12:28,790 --> 00:12:31,340 what they don't know, but they know they don't don't know 243 00:12:31,350 --> 00:12:34,780 everything. So that's when they that's when 244 00:12:34,790 --> 00:12:36,640 they look for help. But you know what I've always 245 00:12:36,650 --> 00:12:40,020 maintained and it's proven every single day, attitude is 246 00:12:40,030 --> 00:12:41,980 everything. Attitude is everything. 247 00:12:41,990 --> 00:12:44,260 And I, that's one of my strategies when I'm helping them 248 00:12:44,270 --> 00:12:49,000 hire is before the CV, before the law school mark, before the 249 00:12:49,350 --> 00:12:51,870 firms they worked at, if they're, if they're, you know, 250 00:12:51,880 --> 00:12:55,560 experience, how do we measure their attitude? 251 00:12:55,710 --> 00:12:58,320 Are they a go getter? Are they gonna figure it out? 252 00:12:58,370 --> 00:13:02,480 Or are they gonna be like stuck in the solution or sorry, stuck 253 00:13:02,490 --> 00:13:05,470 in the problem being part of the problem rather than the 254 00:13:05,480 --> 00:13:09,360 solution, right. And so there's a lot of, I mean, 255 00:13:09,370 --> 00:13:11,340 to me, this stuff just comes naturally. 256 00:13:11,350 --> 00:13:14,560 I don't know why I can't say how, but I guess when I look 257 00:13:14,570 --> 00:13:17,340 back at my life, like I said, everything I was interested in 258 00:13:17,350 --> 00:13:19,650 has always been around people, the study of people. 259 00:13:20,380 --> 00:13:24,300 And so I guess I'm a pretty good judge of, of people in the 260 00:13:24,310 --> 00:13:27,570 professional realm. Again, I'm not perfect, no, and 261 00:13:27,580 --> 00:13:31,110 my systems are not, you know, perfect, but they're pretty, 262 00:13:31,120 --> 00:13:33,690 pretty darn good. And I've helped, I've helped 263 00:13:33,700 --> 00:13:36,990 people build some amazing teams. And I look back at some of my 264 00:13:37,000 --> 00:13:40,950 clients now that I work with like 12 years ago, 13 years ago. 265 00:13:40,960 --> 00:13:46,170 Even one in Toronto started with him 2018, worked through 2020 266 00:13:46,520 --> 00:13:49,590 and he's already won the fastest growing law firm in Toronto 267 00:13:49,600 --> 00:13:52,650 twice from the Globe and Mail. And he's grown beyond that. 268 00:13:52,900 --> 00:13:55,510 He will, he wrote the forward for the book and he will be 269 00:13:55,520 --> 00:13:59,310 hosting the launch of the book on his face in his Bay St. 270 00:13:59,320 --> 00:14:01,430 office in June. I can't wait. 271 00:14:01,500 --> 00:14:04,140 But he's one of many stories that, you know, I had the 272 00:14:04,150 --> 00:14:06,710 opportunity of working with him. There's a great example. 273 00:14:06,810 --> 00:14:09,710 Here's a young now this is a great for some of your listeners 274 00:14:09,720 --> 00:14:13,960 too, for junior lawyers. So the story is he articled 275 00:14:14,010 --> 00:14:17,100 right. He graduated in article and he 276 00:14:17,110 --> 00:14:21,060 wasn't hired back from the firm. He couldn't get a job. 277 00:14:21,210 --> 00:14:23,920 So he went out and he started his own law firm. 278 00:14:23,970 --> 00:14:28,040 Fast forward five years later, it's got 5 lawyers working under 279 00:14:28,050 --> 00:14:29,580 him. This is when he reached out to 280 00:14:29,590 --> 00:14:32,720 me because he wanted to help create a plan about the 281 00:14:32,730 --> 00:14:36,290 partnership for the well, that was 2018 when you reached out 282 00:14:36,360 --> 00:14:38,630 last year, I saw the announcements on LinkedIn. 283 00:14:38,940 --> 00:14:41,570 They've all made partner. They've all stuck with them. 284 00:14:41,640 --> 00:14:44,070 They made partner. I worked with a number of them, 285 00:14:44,120 --> 00:14:47,530 coach them. It's amazing to see that like 286 00:14:47,540 --> 00:14:50,170 there's an example, he had already achieved quite a level 287 00:14:50,180 --> 00:14:52,910 of success, right? Like young, I think it was like 288 00:14:52,920 --> 00:14:57,820 31 or 32 or something, has A5 lawyer firm. 289 00:14:57,860 --> 00:14:59,770 Well, five lawyers under him plus him. 290 00:14:59,830 --> 00:15:02,490 And I mean, I'd say that's success, right? 291 00:15:02,540 --> 00:15:05,820 But he knew, he knew he couldn't get to the next level without 292 00:15:05,880 --> 00:15:07,790 help. So we worked together for a 293 00:15:07,800 --> 00:15:11,790 couple of years and I mean, it's just amazing to see the clients 294 00:15:11,800 --> 00:15:14,870 grow. Another one in Vancouver, she 295 00:15:14,880 --> 00:15:17,370 had left a firm. I think she was about four years 296 00:15:17,380 --> 00:15:20,150 and four year. She left the firm to start her 297 00:15:20,160 --> 00:15:24,860 own firm. That was, I'm gonna say 20. 298 00:15:24,870 --> 00:15:28,490 It was either 2012 or 2013 cause that was actually in Toronto for 299 00:15:28,500 --> 00:15:31,120 the summer when she reached, reached out to me. 300 00:15:32,090 --> 00:15:36,320 So back then, 2012, let's say it's 2012, she was her and her 301 00:15:36,330 --> 00:15:41,140 legal assistant. Now she has a team of 25 302 00:15:41,200 --> 00:15:44,500 lawyers. She branched out to a second 303 00:15:44,510 --> 00:15:49,340 practice area and is just, she has a, she's created a four day 304 00:15:49,350 --> 00:15:54,610 work week for all her staff. Like she is bleeding edge, like 305 00:15:54,620 --> 00:15:58,220 just took off one of the most brilliant auctorial lawyers I 306 00:15:58,230 --> 00:16:00,840 know in Canada. There's another one in in 307 00:16:00,850 --> 00:16:03,240 Calgary. She's a business immigration 308 00:16:03,250 --> 00:16:06,240 lawyer and she just keeps winning accolades and accolades 309 00:16:06,250 --> 00:16:08,080 and accolades over and over and over again. 310 00:16:08,510 --> 00:16:11,980 It's amazing to see when you look back and I had a bit of it, 311 00:16:11,990 --> 00:16:14,520 I had a small part in it. I'm not going to take credit for 312 00:16:14,530 --> 00:16:16,900 all of that, right? But I had some part in it. 313 00:16:16,910 --> 00:16:20,520 And that is awesome that that just makes me to see them grow 314 00:16:20,830 --> 00:16:23,140 and then move and go to a whole new level. 315 00:16:23,390 --> 00:16:25,710 It's almost like I'm a proud parent. 316 00:16:25,820 --> 00:16:28,180 Right, that's fantastic. Well, thank you so much for 317 00:16:28,190 --> 00:16:31,720 sharing those, those really tangible examples as well of 318 00:16:31,850 --> 00:16:35,240 those experiences that Gary and I saw here. 319 00:16:35,250 --> 00:16:38,000 You've you've worked with everyone from full solo 320 00:16:38,010 --> 00:16:40,960 practitioners to to partners at large firms. 321 00:16:41,030 --> 00:16:43,520 You did mention you have a little bit more of a focus now 322 00:16:43,530 --> 00:16:45,560 on, on people who own their own firm. 323 00:16:45,610 --> 00:16:49,010 But I wanted to to to ask you if throughout these years, if there 324 00:16:49,020 --> 00:16:53,980 were a few mistakes that you saw being repeated across firm sizes 325 00:16:53,990 --> 00:16:57,040 when it comes to grow for leadership, regardless of it 326 00:16:57,050 --> 00:16:59,120 being, you know, a smaller firm or a big firm? 327 00:16:59,940 --> 00:17:01,470 Yeah, well, you know, I'm glad y'all. 328 00:17:01,480 --> 00:17:04,869 So I questioned because I always tell when I was like, say I was 329 00:17:04,880 --> 00:17:07,690 working with a partner at a large firm, I always told him, I 330 00:17:07,700 --> 00:17:09,790 said think of your practice as a franchise. 331 00:17:09,980 --> 00:17:13,010 This is your business. And if you think treat it like 332 00:17:13,020 --> 00:17:15,210 that, then you might as well be running your own firm. 333 00:17:15,280 --> 00:17:18,190 So the challenges are the same, the building, the team, letting 334 00:17:18,200 --> 00:17:19,690 go. I'll give you an example. 335 00:17:19,700 --> 00:17:24,760 I worked with this fairly senior partner out in Halifax and he'd 336 00:17:24,770 --> 00:17:28,349 been coming off of, he came back from a medical leave and the 337 00:17:28,359 --> 00:17:31,110 firm hired me directly to help him get back on track. 338 00:17:31,160 --> 00:17:34,240 Right. We, we worked together for all 339 00:17:34,250 --> 00:17:36,350 over a year. And I remember near the end he 340 00:17:36,360 --> 00:17:39,210 was, we were on a call and he said, Gary, I just can't believe 341 00:17:39,220 --> 00:17:41,970 it. I'm only doing the work I love. 342 00:17:42,680 --> 00:17:45,610 And I laughed and I said, because you built A-Team and 343 00:17:45,620 --> 00:17:47,850 you're delegating. And he did. 344 00:17:47,900 --> 00:17:50,650 He got a reputation in the firm where you know all the 345 00:17:50,660 --> 00:17:53,220 associates would be talking and they'd be like, I wanna go work 346 00:17:53,230 --> 00:17:56,250 with that partner because he takes, he takes his associates 347 00:17:56,260 --> 00:17:58,750 to the client events. You're involved with the client 348 00:17:58,760 --> 00:18:01,730 relationship. He mentors them, he builds them 349 00:18:01,740 --> 00:18:04,730 up. It's the same that mistakes made 350 00:18:04,790 --> 00:18:07,950 are the same no matter if it's solo practice or senior partner 351 00:18:07,960 --> 00:18:12,910 at an international law firm. It's being rigid, not not 352 00:18:12,920 --> 00:18:15,690 letting go of control, not building a team around you. 353 00:18:15,700 --> 00:18:17,730 Like senior partners at the big firms. 354 00:18:17,740 --> 00:18:20,450 They need to build a team. They can't do it all on on their 355 00:18:20,460 --> 00:18:22,060 own. They can't build $1,000,000 on 356 00:18:22,070 --> 00:18:23,880 their own. They can say they, they're, 357 00:18:23,890 --> 00:18:26,690 their book is 1,000,000, but they've got, they've got a 358 00:18:26,700 --> 00:18:31,070 roster of lawyers and paralegals and legal assistants helping 359 00:18:31,080 --> 00:18:33,700 them. So it really no matter what 360 00:18:33,710 --> 00:18:37,270 side, if you're solo, you still need a team, whether on contract 361 00:18:37,280 --> 00:18:40,730 or they're virtual or part time or whatever, you need to build a 362 00:18:40,740 --> 00:18:42,330 team. You can't do this on your own. 363 00:18:42,520 --> 00:18:46,830 No one can but lawyers really it's, it goes back to the 364 00:18:46,840 --> 00:18:51,230 inherent traits, the perfectionism and the the very 365 00:18:51,240 --> 00:18:54,250 difficult challenge of letting go of control. 366 00:18:55,330 --> 00:18:57,740 And I understand it. Again, I'm not criticizing them, 367 00:18:57,750 --> 00:19:00,600 understanding them right? And I get it. 368 00:19:00,690 --> 00:19:02,760 But there are some good people out there. 369 00:19:02,770 --> 00:19:04,520 I know I've been in this 20 years. 370 00:19:04,590 --> 00:19:07,420 There are some good juniors. There are some good paralegals. 371 00:19:07,650 --> 00:19:10,740 There are some serious people that you can build an amazing 372 00:19:10,750 --> 00:19:12,600 team with. And here's the other thing, 373 00:19:12,610 --> 00:19:15,940 Claudio, I always say this, especially the the small law 374 00:19:15,950 --> 00:19:19,770 firm owners, there's a lot of unhappy lawyers out there 375 00:19:19,830 --> 00:19:23,440 working at the bigger firms. If you can create a culture that 376 00:19:23,450 --> 00:19:28,980 inspires innovation, inspires creativity, inspires teamwork 377 00:19:29,050 --> 00:19:31,340 where people are fulfilled, you're going to be able to 378 00:19:31,350 --> 00:19:33,400 attract the best of the best of the talent. 379 00:19:33,900 --> 00:19:36,960 Very, very interesting. Something that I also wanted to 380 00:19:36,970 --> 00:19:40,960 to ask you, I, I believe that working in this business in this 381 00:19:40,970 --> 00:19:44,480 area for over 20 years, you've surely seen many, many changes 382 00:19:44,490 --> 00:19:48,820 in how firms are run and how processes changed over time with 383 00:19:48,830 --> 00:19:51,180 more technology and as that's implemented. 384 00:19:51,190 --> 00:19:54,020 And I'm curious if there is anything you know regarding the 385 00:19:54,030 --> 00:19:58,480 business model of law firms you know as time passed and as you 386 00:19:58,490 --> 00:20:01,750 look ahead to the future? Are there ways where you know, 387 00:20:01,760 --> 00:20:05,090 this business model needs to change to stay, you know, 388 00:20:05,100 --> 00:20:09,610 healthy, profitable and and human for this next decade? 389 00:20:09,660 --> 00:20:13,110 It's interesting, I was on a webinar this morning and it was 390 00:20:13,120 --> 00:20:16,850 a coach from the UK and he was taught it was for coaches and he 391 00:20:16,860 --> 00:20:21,670 was talking about how having AI help us be more human, right? 392 00:20:21,680 --> 00:20:24,100 Not get away from human, but embrace more human. 393 00:20:24,560 --> 00:20:27,700 So law firm model, Yes, well, it's already in Australia and 394 00:20:27,710 --> 00:20:30,830 the UK and it's where non lawyers have ownership in the 395 00:20:30,840 --> 00:20:33,460 law firm. So you have people buy into the 396 00:20:33,470 --> 00:20:35,510 law firm professional management, right? 397 00:20:35,520 --> 00:20:39,190 Like a CMO or CEO. And now they've got a stake in 398 00:20:39,200 --> 00:20:41,850 in the ownership of the firm and they're part of the professional 399 00:20:41,860 --> 00:20:44,310 management. So I see that's been happening 400 00:20:44,320 --> 00:20:48,050 for guess well over 10 years, maybe 15, you know, have time 401 00:20:48,060 --> 00:20:49,870 flies. I'm always like pre COVID, post 402 00:20:49,880 --> 00:20:53,890 COVID, like COVID was like, but it's been going on in the UK and 403 00:20:53,900 --> 00:20:57,890 Australia for at least well over 10, probably well over 15 years 404 00:20:57,900 --> 00:21:01,430 where the law societies, wherever there, their governing 405 00:21:01,440 --> 00:21:03,290 bodies are over there have allowed. 406 00:21:03,300 --> 00:21:06,220 And I believe there's some talk about actually happening in the 407 00:21:06,270 --> 00:21:09,210 United States. We're a little bit behind in 408 00:21:09,220 --> 00:21:15,750 Canada, but I think that's, you know, to be a great lawyer is a 409 00:21:15,760 --> 00:21:19,090 really difficult, challenging profession. 410 00:21:19,100 --> 00:21:23,180 It's an art and to be both a great lawyer and a great 411 00:21:23,410 --> 00:21:25,960 business person, it's very, very rare. 412 00:21:26,410 --> 00:21:29,450 It's very rare I've I've seen it, but it's very rare. 413 00:21:29,460 --> 00:21:32,700 And I'll give you 2 diametrically opposed examples 414 00:21:32,710 --> 00:21:34,260 of recent owners that I've worked with. 415 00:21:34,490 --> 00:21:38,910 So one guy in Toronto, very entrepreneurial, OK, he could 416 00:21:38,920 --> 00:21:42,330 leave the lawyering to everyone else and he could be very, very 417 00:21:42,340 --> 00:21:44,570 happy during the business side and growing the firm for the 418 00:21:44,580 --> 00:21:47,810 rest of his career. The opposite of that is that 419 00:21:47,820 --> 00:21:51,970 client in Vancouver who loves to play lawyer, loves to be the 420 00:21:51,980 --> 00:21:54,560 advocate in the courtroom for his clients. 421 00:21:54,650 --> 00:21:59,200 He has no interest in marketing, Absolutely 0 interest in HR. 422 00:21:59,270 --> 00:22:01,140 I know because I took that over for him. 423 00:22:01,410 --> 00:22:02,770 And so you got two different models. 424 00:22:03,660 --> 00:22:06,340 What's the approach? We still need to build a team 425 00:22:06,350 --> 00:22:09,430 around them, but the team will be different based on their 426 00:22:09,440 --> 00:22:12,610 strengths. So I always say to, and this can 427 00:22:12,620 --> 00:22:15,040 be for, you know, even though I'm focused on law firm owners, 428 00:22:15,050 --> 00:22:20,430 this advice goes for any lawyer, solo practice partner or working 429 00:22:20,440 --> 00:22:23,450 towards partnership with a big firm is you start with your 430 00:22:23,460 --> 00:22:27,990 strengths and then you build around that with complementary 431 00:22:28,000 --> 00:22:30,150 services. So instead of trying to pick up 432 00:22:30,160 --> 00:22:32,680 your socks and if you're, if you're terrible at marketing and 433 00:22:32,690 --> 00:22:34,510 you hate marketing, get some help. 434 00:22:34,600 --> 00:22:37,340 Don't try and figure it out. You can't do it all on your own 435 00:22:38,070 --> 00:22:40,500 or if there's a certain part of marketing that you're good at, 436 00:22:40,550 --> 00:22:43,240 focus on that. Get help with the other stuff, 437 00:22:43,310 --> 00:22:46,200 right? Don't be pushing the boulder up 438 00:22:46,210 --> 00:22:47,960 the hill. Build the team. 439 00:22:48,370 --> 00:22:51,000 Build the team around your strength and what you want, and 440 00:22:51,010 --> 00:22:52,400 that's how you're going to get freedom, right? 441 00:22:52,450 --> 00:22:56,000 I can't use the same model for those approaches, for those two 442 00:22:56,010 --> 00:22:59,010 very, very different lawyers with very different goals. 443 00:22:59,020 --> 00:23:02,480 They're completely opposite. One is truly entrepreneurial. 444 00:23:02,670 --> 00:23:04,770 The other one, yeah, sure, he wants to build a law firm 445 00:23:04,780 --> 00:23:06,760 because he can see the opportunities, but he doesn't 446 00:23:06,770 --> 00:23:09,360 want to build it himself. That's fine. 447 00:23:09,410 --> 00:23:11,000 I'm not. I'm not there to judge. 448 00:23:11,050 --> 00:23:13,280 I'm like, OK, this is unique. This will be fun. 449 00:23:13,760 --> 00:23:17,420 So in his case, we build partnership or professional 450 00:23:17,430 --> 00:23:20,460 management or a combination of both to run the law firm. 451 00:23:20,570 --> 00:23:23,460 He's still signs the check, he's still the authority, right? 452 00:23:23,670 --> 00:23:27,120 But he's not running with HJ with the other guy in Toronto. 453 00:23:27,450 --> 00:23:29,920 He's running it. He's building the team around 454 00:23:29,930 --> 00:23:33,040 him and he's hiring lawyers and delegating and doing very little 455 00:23:33,050 --> 00:23:34,680 legal. You'll always have his hand in 456 00:23:34,690 --> 00:23:37,620 the legal work a little bit obviously, right? 457 00:23:37,680 --> 00:23:40,100 But he's not doing the brunt of it day-to-day. 458 00:23:40,150 --> 00:23:42,940 So there's 2 examples of where it's completely opposite. 459 00:23:42,990 --> 00:23:46,260 They approach is the same. That's building the team. 460 00:23:46,650 --> 00:23:50,020 How we do it and how we build the team is different based on 461 00:23:50,030 --> 00:23:53,620 the, on the individual lawyer. And again, that formula, 462 00:23:53,630 --> 00:23:56,990 Claudio, for any lawyer, whether you're solo practice or you're 463 00:23:57,000 --> 00:23:59,930 building your little team at a firm at the same model, same, 464 00:23:59,970 --> 00:24:04,280 it's basically for all of them. I'm curious now as kind of to to 465 00:24:04,290 --> 00:24:07,740 wrap up today's episode. A lot of my audience right now 466 00:24:07,750 --> 00:24:10,490 is early career professionals. Professionals are starting up 467 00:24:10,500 --> 00:24:12,490 their careers as lawyers in Canada. 468 00:24:12,660 --> 00:24:15,770 And I'm curious to know, you know, for those who are just 469 00:24:15,840 --> 00:24:20,050 starting out, is there some kind of piece of advice that you wish 470 00:24:20,100 --> 00:24:23,820 you would tell people earlier on in their careers or maybe that 471 00:24:23,830 --> 00:24:28,010 they asked heard early on and would help in in the longer 472 00:24:28,020 --> 00:24:30,300 game? I probably have about a million 473 00:24:30,310 --> 00:24:36,400 things, but if I were to sum it up to one thing, I would, well, 474 00:24:36,410 --> 00:24:39,080 it's a two-part, it's a two-part piece of advice. 475 00:24:39,090 --> 00:24:40,870 First of all, be true to yourself. 476 00:24:41,030 --> 00:24:47,260 OK, So if you, if you're a brainiac who like really loves 477 00:24:47,270 --> 00:24:51,440 to get into the, the nitty gritty of the law and you know, 478 00:24:51,450 --> 00:24:55,700 you just like that's go for it. Go for it if you have no desire 479 00:24:55,710 --> 00:24:59,910 on the business side of it, be the best you can be at whatever 480 00:24:59,920 --> 00:25:02,870 you enjoy the most. So be true to yourself first. 481 00:25:03,180 --> 00:25:05,390 That's my first treated advice. Otherwise you're going to have a 482 00:25:05,400 --> 00:25:07,270 miserable career. I can guarantee it. 483 00:25:07,580 --> 00:25:10,350 I've seen it. But carnage is unbelievable. 484 00:25:10,400 --> 00:25:12,670 But that's only if you don't stay true to yourself. 485 00:25:12,740 --> 00:25:16,630 The second is never, never settle for less than what you 486 00:25:16,640 --> 00:25:19,970 want, OK? There's a lot of firms out 487 00:25:19,980 --> 00:25:21,670 there. There's a lot of different 488 00:25:21,680 --> 00:25:25,790 cultures and there's absolutely no reason why you can't have a 489 00:25:25,800 --> 00:25:28,830 fulfilling and enjoyable career in law. 490 00:25:28,890 --> 00:25:31,070 But you have to take the lead, OK? 491 00:25:31,140 --> 00:25:33,650 You cannot. What I see all the time, and you 492 00:25:33,660 --> 00:25:37,030 can see that you can look up the statistics audio in the industry 493 00:25:37,040 --> 00:25:40,790 where around the four, five to seven-year mark, that's where 494 00:25:40,800 --> 00:25:42,590 the lawyers leave the profession altogether. 495 00:25:43,330 --> 00:25:46,180 It's their heads been down. They haven't had a time to 496 00:25:46,190 --> 00:25:47,890 breathe. And all of a sudden they're 497 00:25:47,900 --> 00:25:50,980 looking up from their desk one day at WTF, what am I doing 498 00:25:50,990 --> 00:25:52,260 here? Right? 499 00:25:52,350 --> 00:25:54,860 And they're burnt out, they're unhappy. 500 00:25:54,910 --> 00:25:57,290 I could go on and on. I won't you can imagine what 501 00:25:57,300 --> 00:26:00,380 comes after burnt out and unhappy, not good stuff. 502 00:26:00,650 --> 00:26:03,100 And many of them leave the profession altogether. 503 00:26:03,330 --> 00:26:06,260 And so I, I've examined why, right? 504 00:26:06,270 --> 00:26:07,780 It's not just the firm they're at. 505 00:26:07,830 --> 00:26:10,010 You can't blame it on the all on the firm. 506 00:26:10,330 --> 00:26:13,480 So really be, be true to yourself, whatever that is. 507 00:26:13,490 --> 00:26:15,760 It's like I'm a coach. I'm not here to tell you what 508 00:26:15,770 --> 00:26:19,120 you should do in your career. I'm here to help you get to 509 00:26:19,130 --> 00:26:21,140 where we want to once you decide. 510 00:26:21,210 --> 00:26:25,080 But if you wanted to be a rock star lawyer and grow, grow your 511 00:26:25,090 --> 00:26:28,460 own firm, go for it. There's so much opportunity to 512 00:26:28,470 --> 00:26:30,360 do things differently. You know, this younger 513 00:26:30,370 --> 00:26:34,980 generation is already the next couple of generations already 514 00:26:35,030 --> 00:26:37,950 millennials and Gen. Z, they're doing things 515 00:26:37,960 --> 00:26:40,400 differently. You know, that example that I 516 00:26:40,410 --> 00:26:43,950 used of the young lawyer wasn't hired back after articling he's 517 00:26:43,960 --> 00:26:46,700 a millennial and then he was hiring millennials. 518 00:26:46,750 --> 00:26:50,830 So like, don't. Just because it's been done a 519 00:26:50,840 --> 00:26:53,940 certain way for all these years does not mean it. 520 00:26:54,000 --> 00:26:57,610 It's the best way to do it and it's the way you should do it. 521 00:26:57,620 --> 00:27:01,730 Find your own path, right? You put the time in, you put 522 00:27:01,740 --> 00:27:05,590 your blood, sweat, and tears on a lot of money to get to this 523 00:27:05,600 --> 00:27:08,950 point in your career. You deserve to go that extra 524 00:27:09,000 --> 00:27:11,860 mile. And that extra mile is being 525 00:27:11,870 --> 00:27:14,390 true to yourself and not settling for less. 526 00:27:14,860 --> 00:27:16,550 Really appreciate those thoughts. 527 00:27:16,560 --> 00:27:19,530 Really appreciate you all for taking the time to tuning into 528 00:27:19,540 --> 00:27:21,390 today's episode. Thanks again, Gary. 529 00:27:22,160 --> 00:27:23,060 Thank you, Claudio.