1 00:00:12,870 --> 00:00:14,870 Welcome to studying law Around the world. 2 00:00:15,010 --> 00:00:17,860 I'm Claudio Claus. In each episode, I talk with 3 00:00:17,870 --> 00:00:20,840 lawyers, law students, and professors from different parts 4 00:00:20,850 --> 00:00:24,740 of the world to talk about legal education, careers, and what the 5 00:00:24,750 --> 00:00:26,420 profession looks like in real life. 6 00:00:26,430 --> 00:00:29,470 We talk about the hard parts, the surprises and the decisions. 7 00:00:29,480 --> 00:00:32,259 That shaped their paths. Whether you're planning to study 8 00:00:32,270 --> 00:00:33,480 abroad. Thinking about. 9 00:00:33,490 --> 00:00:36,820 Working in another legal system or just curious about how law 10 00:00:36,830 --> 00:00:39,980 works around the world? This podcast is for. 11 00:00:39,990 --> 00:00:45,130 You Hello everybody, Welcome to another episode of Studying Law 12 00:00:45,140 --> 00:00:47,560 around the world. Today I have the opportunity to 13 00:00:47,570 --> 00:00:51,520 host Saad Minhas. He is a Canadian in-house lawyer 14 00:00:51,530 --> 00:00:54,840 working at the intersection of real estate, infrastructure, 15 00:00:54,850 --> 00:00:58,840 energy and technology. He's had roles in different 16 00:00:58,850 --> 00:01:02,860 different companies all across North America and also has been 17 00:01:02,870 --> 00:01:06,000 an active member of the legal profession with mentorship 18 00:01:06,010 --> 00:01:09,500 initiatives and and many others. I'm very, very excited to be 19 00:01:09,510 --> 00:01:11,580 chatting with him today. Thank you so much for making the 20 00:01:11,590 --> 00:01:14,100 time to come to the podcast. Hi Claudia, thank you so much 21 00:01:14,110 --> 00:01:17,740 for having me. Introduce yourself to our 22 00:01:17,750 --> 00:01:20,120 listeners and walk us through little bit about your journey. 23 00:01:20,130 --> 00:01:21,540 Oh, thank you. So I would. 24 00:01:21,550 --> 00:01:25,910 Say infrastructure has been a through line in my career from 25 00:01:25,920 --> 00:01:29,240 the beginning. I started out as a consultant on 26 00:01:29,290 --> 00:01:32,960 large public private partnerships working on major 27 00:01:32,970 --> 00:01:36,030 infrastructure such as hospitals, highways, transit and 28 00:01:36,040 --> 00:01:39,480 the like. And so it made sense for me when 29 00:01:39,490 --> 00:01:42,760 I began my articles that I would continue in that vein. 30 00:01:42,830 --> 00:01:46,820 And so I've had the opportunity to essentially be able to weave 31 00:01:46,830 --> 00:01:49,060 the various elements of infrastructure. 32 00:01:49,070 --> 00:01:52,180 And when I say infrastructure, I mean broadly on real estate 33 00:01:52,190 --> 00:01:55,280 construction and power. And so elements of that in each 34 00:01:55,290 --> 00:01:59,140 case, whether it was in government, then with a major 35 00:01:59,150 --> 00:02:03,250 bank and then with a real estate startup and following that and 36 00:02:03,260 --> 00:02:07,570 for the past 6:00-ish years in data centres, working with some 37 00:02:07,580 --> 00:02:11,110 of the leading companies essentially developing data 38 00:02:11,120 --> 00:02:12,190 centres. Amazing. 39 00:02:12,260 --> 00:02:16,130 So working from across these major organizations, including 40 00:02:16,140 --> 00:02:19,530 global banks, infrastructure agencies, including also 41 00:02:19,540 --> 00:02:23,530 companies focused on AI powered data centres, what have been, 42 00:02:23,540 --> 00:02:26,870 you know, maybe a turning point that has shaped your career so 43 00:02:26,880 --> 00:02:30,350 far? I think that early on in my 44 00:02:30,360 --> 00:02:33,850 career, you know, my mentors have always kind of emphasized 45 00:02:33,860 --> 00:02:37,630 #1 being solution oriented and looking at the problems that I 46 00:02:37,640 --> 00:02:41,450 am best equipped to address, being curious throughout that 47 00:02:41,460 --> 00:02:44,550 process. And so the turning points that 48 00:02:44,560 --> 00:02:47,950 shaped my career were really about opportunities for growth 49 00:02:47,960 --> 00:02:52,150 and where I could be of use. And so although there are plenty 50 00:02:52,160 --> 00:02:56,190 of real estate and construction lawyers who have worked for in 51 00:02:56,200 --> 00:03:00,330 real estate developers or law firms specializing in those 52 00:03:00,340 --> 00:03:04,410 areas, I have kind of always drawn myself to unconventional 53 00:03:04,420 --> 00:03:08,460 ways of doing that. And so for that reason, I think 54 00:03:08,470 --> 00:03:11,550 that ultimately trusting that I can be of value to an 55 00:03:11,560 --> 00:03:14,960 organization and value there. And that has always kind of 56 00:03:15,030 --> 00:03:17,060 taken me towards these turning points. 57 00:03:17,070 --> 00:03:20,660 And, and some of them were, I think by my own choosing. 58 00:03:20,670 --> 00:03:24,180 Others, for example, you know, when my term in government was 59 00:03:24,190 --> 00:03:28,400 up and they were having contract rules, I, I was then prompted to 60 00:03:28,410 --> 00:03:31,140 find something else. We work where I was at for, for 61 00:03:31,150 --> 00:03:34,420 a little while and had its, you know, well documented ups and 62 00:03:34,430 --> 00:03:36,600 downs. And so I found myself at the end 63 00:03:36,610 --> 00:03:38,700 of that journey. And that's perfectly fine. 64 00:03:38,710 --> 00:03:42,660 I think that ultimately, whether you are choosing when your time 65 00:03:42,670 --> 00:03:45,790 ends or whether that time is chosen for you, you still have 66 00:03:45,800 --> 00:03:49,560 decisions to make in terms of where you go next and how you 67 00:03:49,570 --> 00:03:53,380 take the experience that you've built and redirect that towards 68 00:03:53,390 --> 00:03:55,640 new opportunities. And Tastic, I appreciate you 69 00:03:55,650 --> 00:03:58,390 bringing up the, the idea of, you know, mentors and the role 70 00:03:58,400 --> 00:04:01,250 they played in your career so far. 71 00:04:01,260 --> 00:04:04,610 You know, I've, I've heard different things already on one 72 00:04:04,620 --> 00:04:07,840 point talking about, you know, the, the opportunities you could 73 00:04:07,850 --> 00:04:11,770 come to, to find if you will try to keep up your practice. 74 00:04:11,780 --> 00:04:15,020 As I had the opportunity to chat with quite a few practitioners 75 00:04:15,030 --> 00:04:17,990 who who did find, you know, in a way, a niche in law that they 76 00:04:18,000 --> 00:04:21,209 were able to really specialize on and, and really get, you 77 00:04:21,220 --> 00:04:24,810 know, an interesting career out of it, really focusing on their 78 00:04:24,820 --> 00:04:26,180 area. I'm curious to hear your 79 00:04:26,190 --> 00:04:27,950 thoughts on that. What are what are some things 80 00:04:27,960 --> 00:04:31,790 that you that you think are maybe that you would even tell 81 00:04:31,800 --> 00:04:35,050 your younger self when the first few years of your practice 82 00:04:35,120 --> 00:04:37,570 keeping it? General, I mean, this is a great 83 00:04:37,580 --> 00:04:41,310 question and and honestly one that I asked myself at different 84 00:04:41,320 --> 00:04:44,530 stages and you know, others have asked me, I've certainly asked 85 00:04:44,540 --> 00:04:48,490 my mentors. The term that is commonly used 86 00:04:48,500 --> 00:04:52,390 is like T shaped lawyers. And so meaning that you have a 87 00:04:52,400 --> 00:04:56,550 certain degree of expertise, but you know, still a versatility 88 00:04:56,560 --> 00:04:59,760 towards different and other sometimes often parallel, but 89 00:04:59,770 --> 00:05:03,300 sometimes not even parallel areas of law that you stretch 90 00:05:03,310 --> 00:05:06,410 yourself out on and and still try to advise on. 91 00:05:06,480 --> 00:05:11,050 I think that that is integral in today's marketplace. 92 00:05:11,060 --> 00:05:14,490 The reality is that we are now being challenged to do more with 93 00:05:14,500 --> 00:05:16,750 less. Sometimes leverage resources 94 00:05:16,760 --> 00:05:20,590 such as AI, but not necessarily limited to AI, but really around 95 00:05:20,600 --> 00:05:23,450 commercial decision making that required need to have an 96 00:05:23,460 --> 00:05:27,400 in-depth understanding of the area where in fact you are you 97 00:05:27,410 --> 00:05:30,190 have the most expertise. And then in addition to that, 98 00:05:30,200 --> 00:05:33,790 really push yourself and drive yourself to stretch that 99 00:05:34,060 --> 00:05:37,420 capability into areas that you aren't familiar with such that 100 00:05:37,480 --> 00:05:40,900 when you are dealing with novel issues, you are able to tackle 101 00:05:40,910 --> 00:05:44,530 those or areas where there are others that are specialists that 102 00:05:44,540 --> 00:05:46,030 you were able to tackle those as well. 103 00:05:46,040 --> 00:05:49,950 Because the reality is that, you know, now it seems that we have 104 00:05:50,000 --> 00:05:53,210 far more resources at our fingertips in order to be able 105 00:05:53,220 --> 00:05:57,410 to tap into, you know, deep research or expertise. 106 00:05:57,470 --> 00:06:01,590 But that was always the case. Times you simply have to look at 107 00:06:01,600 --> 00:06:05,370 a new issue, thematically review it and provide your best advice. 108 00:06:05,380 --> 00:06:09,230 And obviously, we have professional responsibility to 109 00:06:09,460 --> 00:06:12,220 leverage experts in the field when that is appropriate. 110 00:06:12,230 --> 00:06:16,660 And you absolutely should, because those people are experts 111 00:06:16,670 --> 00:06:18,770 for a reason. But it's not to say that you 112 00:06:18,780 --> 00:06:22,610 should not challenge yourself to really follow through on what it 113 00:06:22,620 --> 00:06:26,010 is they are doing, learn from them, and then be able to apply 114 00:06:26,020 --> 00:06:29,270 that knowledge in other ways. So to answer your question in 115 00:06:29,330 --> 00:06:31,340 very, very long manner, it's both ends. 116 00:06:31,440 --> 00:06:35,230 You nowadays, I believe, have to be an expert as well as a 117 00:06:35,240 --> 00:06:37,410 generalist. And when it comes to specific 118 00:06:37,420 --> 00:06:41,180 areas of law, when somebody tells me that they practice real 119 00:06:41,190 --> 00:06:44,170 estate law, I'm imagining automatically know somebody 120 00:06:44,180 --> 00:06:46,570 who's doing conveyances, who's doing, you know, just 121 00:06:46,580 --> 00:06:49,370 residential work, some commercial real estate, maybe 122 00:06:49,380 --> 00:06:52,370 leasing, maybe a construction lien work. 123 00:06:52,380 --> 00:06:55,890 It seems like your career and and the work you've done shows 124 00:06:55,900 --> 00:06:57,670 quite quite a bit of a different side. 125 00:06:57,680 --> 00:06:59,970 Of the practice. So I'd watch a little more, you 126 00:06:59,980 --> 00:07:03,280 know, about Euro as a, as a real estate lawyer in different 127 00:07:03,290 --> 00:07:06,310 phases of your career, but really working, you know, with 128 00:07:06,320 --> 00:07:09,690 technology, with large scale projects, with, you know, global 129 00:07:09,700 --> 00:07:12,140 infrastructures. So can you tell us a little bit 130 00:07:12,150 --> 00:07:15,030 more about what you know that practice can look like? 131 00:07:15,040 --> 00:07:18,430 Yeah. I mean, I, I've always just been 132 00:07:18,440 --> 00:07:23,490 curious about unorthodox ways of practicing law. 133 00:07:23,600 --> 00:07:28,150 And so, you know, much as I respect and appreciate, you 134 00:07:28,160 --> 00:07:31,910 know, practicing law firm, spending a long time in that 135 00:07:31,920 --> 00:07:34,930 environment was really not something that I was as 136 00:07:34,940 --> 00:07:37,510 interested in in the beginning phases of my career. 137 00:07:37,700 --> 00:07:43,470 And the modality that I wanted to see was really looking at 138 00:07:43,480 --> 00:07:47,410 places that I could bring my expertise and also challenge 139 00:07:47,420 --> 00:07:51,130 myself to learn more and push myself to be able to advise in 140 00:07:51,180 --> 00:07:54,070 spaces where they, you know, would not people wouldn't 141 00:07:54,080 --> 00:07:56,720 necessarily realize that you would have, for example, a real 142 00:07:56,730 --> 00:08:00,470 estate lawyer or a construction lawyer or a, you know, an energy 143 00:08:00,480 --> 00:08:02,050 lawyer. I still for that reason, you 144 00:08:02,060 --> 00:08:05,470 know, being able to be in, in places like banks and advising 145 00:08:05,480 --> 00:08:09,490 there was always an interesting to me because I was able to kind 146 00:08:09,500 --> 00:08:13,520 of messed up my capability in, in ways that I think I would not 147 00:08:13,530 --> 00:08:16,990 necessarily have had the the level of exposure to had I been 148 00:08:17,000 --> 00:08:20,570 in a specialist shop. And similarly, within data 149 00:08:20,580 --> 00:08:24,000 centres, I think this was like particularly interesting because 150 00:08:24,010 --> 00:08:28,040 in a manner that you have within a law firm and sometimes 151 00:08:28,050 --> 00:08:32,240 in-house teams as well, you're often streamed into a particular 152 00:08:32,250 --> 00:08:35,140 practice area. I, of course, mastered the task 153 00:08:35,150 --> 00:08:38,799 that I was given and the responsibility that I had within 154 00:08:38,809 --> 00:08:41,400 a particular area. When I felt comfortable in my 155 00:08:41,409 --> 00:08:43,860 stakeholders, felt comfortable that they were being supported, 156 00:08:43,870 --> 00:08:48,300 I continued to branch out into areas that were adjacent to 157 00:08:48,310 --> 00:08:50,410 that. And so, you know, sometimes we 158 00:08:50,420 --> 00:08:53,980 look at it also Nexus, you know, you have that between areas of 159 00:08:53,990 --> 00:08:57,030 law and practice areas as well. So I, I do think that there's a, 160 00:08:57,090 --> 00:08:59,800 a through line and a connectivity between areas like 161 00:08:59,810 --> 00:09:03,460 real estate and procurement and construction and energy, 162 00:09:03,540 --> 00:09:06,740 particularly on major infrastructure projects when 163 00:09:06,750 --> 00:09:09,850 these are all components, including things like financing 164 00:09:09,860 --> 00:09:12,090 and commercial agreements and tax, etcetera. 165 00:09:12,100 --> 00:09:14,570 We're really knowing and understanding really cradle to 166 00:09:14,580 --> 00:09:17,280 grave of the deal. And my thought processes on this 167 00:09:17,290 --> 00:09:20,910 was never just about the legal practice is, yes, of course, I 168 00:09:20,920 --> 00:09:23,510 have to be able to master that and provide the best advice to 169 00:09:23,560 --> 00:09:26,970 my clients, my stakeholders. But I think even beyond that, 170 00:09:27,020 --> 00:09:30,290 when I consider this as a recipient of that advice as a 171 00:09:30,300 --> 00:09:33,330 consultant, I would always think to myself, I want that solution. 172 00:09:33,340 --> 00:09:35,070 I don't really care how it's delivered. 173 00:09:35,080 --> 00:09:38,310 But I think the greater consistency I have within that 174 00:09:38,360 --> 00:09:41,560 and being able to carry that file from start to finish is 175 00:09:41,570 --> 00:09:43,690 incredibly valuable because it creates a level of 176 00:09:43,700 --> 00:09:46,430 accountability and familiarity that is particularly helpful 177 00:09:46,440 --> 00:09:49,900 because these projects are not always separated phase by phase. 178 00:09:49,910 --> 00:09:53,710 You may have different contractors come in on a project 179 00:09:54,000 --> 00:09:57,670 phase by phase, but that handover and that consistency 180 00:09:57,680 --> 00:10:00,670 across the project can be incredibly valuable in order to 181 00:10:00,680 --> 00:10:03,330 deliver that that asset. I'm curious here as, as you 182 00:10:03,340 --> 00:10:06,370 spoke about that intersection of real estate, energy 183 00:10:06,380 --> 00:10:09,150 infrastructure and so forth. I know that one, one of the 184 00:10:09,160 --> 00:10:12,430 interesting points was, you know, how are they related? 185 00:10:12,440 --> 00:10:15,570 How, how do we see all of this coming together in the, in the 186 00:10:15,580 --> 00:10:17,390 practice? And I really appreciate you 187 00:10:17,400 --> 00:10:21,250 mentioning both the the idea of the the T shaped lawyer and also 188 00:10:21,260 --> 00:10:26,780 the idea of being commercially a good advisor, not only in the 189 00:10:26,790 --> 00:10:30,030 law, but really helping out in the business as you were really 190 00:10:30,040 --> 00:10:32,230 an important part of the business when you're acting in 191 00:10:32,240 --> 00:10:35,120 house. So tell me more about that. 192 00:10:35,170 --> 00:10:38,760 How are those connected and, and maybe how should lawyers or law 193 00:10:38,770 --> 00:10:41,530 students who are just, you know, kind of coming into the market 194 00:10:41,540 --> 00:10:45,320 this shift? With AI, there's been a lot of 195 00:10:45,330 --> 00:10:49,200 discussion about how we use AI and AI tools and I think that 196 00:10:49,210 --> 00:10:50,780 that's important and it's critical. 197 00:10:50,830 --> 00:10:54,060 What there is significantly less discussion about, although you 198 00:10:54,070 --> 00:10:57,380 will read a lot more about it in, you know, the trade press, 199 00:10:57,450 --> 00:11:04,890 you know, the financial press is around the business of AI and AI 200 00:11:04,900 --> 00:11:07,730 infrastructure. Essentially, if we are comparing 201 00:11:07,740 --> 00:11:12,050 it to, you know, driving your car to work and how integral 202 00:11:12,060 --> 00:11:16,160 that is to your day. Let's also consider the 203 00:11:16,610 --> 00:11:20,680 automobile makers and the people that built the highway and 204 00:11:20,690 --> 00:11:24,620 essentially the infrastructure that allows all of this to 205 00:11:24,630 --> 00:11:27,800 actually occur. And that to me is very 206 00:11:27,810 --> 00:11:31,800 interesting and very exciting. I think because you the look 207 00:11:31,810 --> 00:11:36,880 full of time sensitivity on these transactions is unlike 208 00:11:36,890 --> 00:11:39,660 anything I have seen before. You know, when they talk about 209 00:11:39,670 --> 00:11:43,360 the AI race, it is fully treated like a race. 210 00:11:43,370 --> 00:11:47,780 And so you need to be able to provide advice and really 211 00:11:47,790 --> 00:11:51,440 commercially oriented advice in a very, very short period of 212 00:11:51,450 --> 00:11:55,580 time and ensure that in fact, your advice is sufficient to 213 00:11:55,650 --> 00:11:58,940 carry that asset and that project throughout the life 214 00:11:58,950 --> 00:12:01,140 cycle. Because when you look at a data 215 00:12:01,150 --> 00:12:04,820 centre as the thing that essentially enables AI to 216 00:12:04,830 --> 00:12:08,580 function the way that it does, a data centre is typically 217 00:12:08,630 --> 00:12:12,800 intended to function for at least a period of 10 to 15 218 00:12:12,810 --> 00:12:15,000 years. So a decision that you make 219 00:12:15,050 --> 00:12:19,620 within a period of a week, or if you're lucky, a month, needs to 220 00:12:19,630 --> 00:12:23,680 be able to carry forward for years and years to come and the 221 00:12:23,690 --> 00:12:27,060 life cycle of that asset and sometimes the evolution of how 222 00:12:27,070 --> 00:12:30,480 that asset is utilized. So touch on another question 223 00:12:30,490 --> 00:12:33,520 that you asked around being business savvy, business 224 00:12:33,530 --> 00:12:35,880 oriented. It's really important to learn 225 00:12:35,950 --> 00:12:39,970 about, I think, the components of how your clients think about 226 00:12:39,980 --> 00:12:43,930 an issue and when it comes, in my example to data centres, 227 00:12:43,980 --> 00:12:46,350 really looking at what drives the business. 228 00:12:46,360 --> 00:12:47,190 What is? What is? 229 00:12:47,200 --> 00:12:51,110 The profit incentive for these projects, what does success look 230 00:12:51,120 --> 00:12:52,810 like? How are you serving the 231 00:12:52,820 --> 00:12:55,080 customer? These are all questions that you 232 00:12:55,090 --> 00:12:59,450 should be asking before you are undertaking your particular area 233 00:12:59,460 --> 00:13:02,810 of advice that you are providing that is critical to success. 234 00:13:02,880 --> 00:13:04,750 Success because it's your North star. 235 00:13:04,760 --> 00:13:06,910 It is. It should guide and dictate 236 00:13:06,920 --> 00:13:09,660 every decision. And in fact, it should help you 237 00:13:09,710 --> 00:13:12,970 analyze risk as well because you are of course, ideally an 238 00:13:12,980 --> 00:13:15,790 enabler of success. But at the same time, you need 239 00:13:15,800 --> 00:13:18,790 to understand that sometimes there is risk in those outcomes 240 00:13:18,800 --> 00:13:23,040 and how do you identify in that pathway to providing that advice 241 00:13:23,110 --> 00:13:27,000 where the risk can arise and perhaps other channels in which 242 00:13:27,010 --> 00:13:31,340 you can achieve the same outcome but perhaps with lesser? 243 00:13:31,350 --> 00:13:34,540 Risk I don't think that everybody has the the privilege 244 00:13:34,550 --> 00:13:38,780 of having a career as diverse as yours while we know navigating 245 00:13:38,790 --> 00:13:41,680 through the same specialty area, I see that you've moved, you 246 00:13:41,690 --> 00:13:45,120 know, between public sector, private sector in house. 247 00:13:45,190 --> 00:13:48,220 We know what are some of the differences that you noticed in 248 00:13:48,230 --> 00:13:51,780 your in your career as you went through these different spots? 249 00:13:51,950 --> 00:13:54,680 You know how how legal work happens across these 250 00:13:54,690 --> 00:13:58,520 environments and maybe even you know our our audience here, our 251 00:13:58,530 --> 00:14:00,730 students, they are early career professionals you. 252 00:14:00,740 --> 00:14:05,080 Know, I'm so glad you asked me. I'm a firm believer that the the 253 00:14:05,090 --> 00:14:08,840 space that you work in does not define you, nor does it define 254 00:14:08,850 --> 00:14:13,570 your career. I think that there are stars in 255 00:14:13,620 --> 00:14:16,630 every organization or form of practice. 256 00:14:16,640 --> 00:14:20,610 And the way to be a star in that is to really look at the task in 257 00:14:20,620 --> 00:14:25,590 front of you and not necessarily being dictated by the perception 258 00:14:25,600 --> 00:14:28,520 of your environment. And that sounds like super 259 00:14:28,530 --> 00:14:30,930 fluffy. So bit more specific about it. 260 00:14:30,940 --> 00:14:35,230 Look like some of the truisms or you know, ideas about how 261 00:14:35,240 --> 00:14:39,450 government can sometimes be bureaucratic or, you know, banks 262 00:14:39,460 --> 00:14:42,200 can be, you know, very risk averse and still to make 263 00:14:42,210 --> 00:14:47,330 decisions or startups can move very quickly or data, you know, 264 00:14:47,500 --> 00:14:50,950 large tech companies that can, you know, sometimes be not 265 00:14:50,960 --> 00:14:54,650 considering and users of the public in the same way that, you 266 00:14:54,660 --> 00:14:57,120 know, government, for example, as a responsibility to the 267 00:14:57,130 --> 00:14:59,260 taxpayer. Look, some of these things, you 268 00:14:59,270 --> 00:15:03,100 might see echoes of these within organizations, but the reality 269 00:15:03,110 --> 00:15:06,200 is that you will always have people within these 270 00:15:06,210 --> 00:15:09,700 organizations and people as individuals and sometimes as a 271 00:15:09,710 --> 00:15:12,910 collectives as well, are thoughtful, far more thoughtful 272 00:15:12,920 --> 00:15:16,700 than sometimes we in a blanket manner give them credit to being 273 00:15:16,750 --> 00:15:21,110 the the level of deliberation I saw in in government and 274 00:15:21,120 --> 00:15:24,420 thoughtfulness about how this impacts end users and 275 00:15:24,430 --> 00:15:28,250 communities and in banks about considering, you know, people 276 00:15:28,260 --> 00:15:34,450 who, you know, their lives rely on the services of a bank or, 277 00:15:34,500 --> 00:15:37,910 you know, within a large technology companies on how they 278 00:15:37,920 --> 00:15:41,310 can, you know, support communities at to grow. 279 00:15:41,380 --> 00:15:45,910 It's far more than you know, sometimes to kind of ideas of 280 00:15:45,920 --> 00:15:48,570 these types of organizations will give them credit for. 281 00:15:48,620 --> 00:15:53,310 But taking it back to, you know, people's approaches and how they 282 00:15:53,380 --> 00:15:55,530 navigate their career in these spaces. 283 00:15:55,590 --> 00:15:58,790 Look, if you want to be in one particular area or one 284 00:15:58,800 --> 00:16:03,150 particular modality of work for the entirety of your career, 285 00:16:03,160 --> 00:16:04,850 power to you. That's fantastic. 286 00:16:04,900 --> 00:16:07,850 You are able to deploy your skill set in a space that you 287 00:16:07,860 --> 00:16:10,270 like and you can grow in that and that's incredible. 288 00:16:10,340 --> 00:16:13,530 And if you do like a level of versatility in terms of you 289 00:16:13,540 --> 00:16:16,150 know, where you work and apply your skill set, then actually 290 00:16:16,160 --> 00:16:18,050 you can do that too. And you can do it again and 291 00:16:18,060 --> 00:16:20,530 again and again in your career if you so choose. 292 00:16:20,540 --> 00:16:23,510 And I don't think that it necessarily has to be limiting. 293 00:16:23,600 --> 00:16:27,390 I think that the only limitation that you would have is your own 294 00:16:27,400 --> 00:16:31,150 ability to demonstrate that you were a value within that 295 00:16:31,160 --> 00:16:33,250 organization. And you can communicate it 296 00:16:33,260 --> 00:16:36,830 effectively when you are you have the opportunity to do so 297 00:16:36,840 --> 00:16:41,570 because there are parallels across whole host of sectors. 298 00:16:41,580 --> 00:16:44,690 And as long as you're able to demonstrate how that exists, 299 00:16:44,700 --> 00:16:47,910 that you are well positioned to be able to to make moves as you. 300 00:16:47,920 --> 00:16:50,270 Please, I love that. Thank you so much for sharing 301 00:16:50,280 --> 00:16:51,840 it. I think that's so important. 302 00:16:52,280 --> 00:16:56,080 We are a lot of people who are kind of LEDs by their curiosity 303 00:16:56,440 --> 00:16:59,620 through their career as opportunities arise, they were 304 00:16:59,630 --> 00:17:02,820 able to take different directions narrative that you're 305 00:17:02,830 --> 00:17:04,859 building for for yourself and for your career. 306 00:17:04,869 --> 00:17:07,890 You've been involved in quite a few complex negotiation 307 00:17:07,900 --> 00:17:10,599 adventures, really high stake projects. 308 00:17:10,730 --> 00:17:13,869 When I think about, you know, kind of skills do you use in 309 00:17:13,880 --> 00:17:16,819 those situations. Law school gets a little bit of 310 00:17:16,829 --> 00:17:20,109 a bad reputation for not preparing people really for for 311 00:17:20,119 --> 00:17:23,000 the world of work. I'm curious, are there, you 312 00:17:23,010 --> 00:17:26,119 know, a few sets of skills that that you thought that have 313 00:17:26,130 --> 00:17:28,820 mattered the most, you know, specifically in these kinds of 314 00:17:28,830 --> 00:17:31,880 high stakes situations that really helped you to navigate 315 00:17:31,890 --> 00:17:34,330 through? Them, absolutely. 316 00:17:34,380 --> 00:17:40,110 I would say from pretty early on I'd read something somewhere 317 00:17:40,120 --> 00:17:43,330 about the type of learner you are. 318 00:17:44,080 --> 00:17:47,870 You know, whether you are an auditory learner or you learn 319 00:17:47,880 --> 00:17:52,510 through, you know, visuals or through reading, etcetera. 320 00:17:52,760 --> 00:17:55,010 I don't think it necessarily needs to be definitive. 321 00:17:55,400 --> 00:17:59,400 I think we learn in a multitude of ways, but I do think that it 322 00:17:59,410 --> 00:18:01,890 can help having some thought towards that because 323 00:18:01,900 --> 00:18:05,510 particularly when you're dealing with complex subject matter, it 324 00:18:05,520 --> 00:18:10,930 really helps to be able to have that, you know, ingested in a 325 00:18:10,940 --> 00:18:14,810 way that is preferable to you Because it can seem very 326 00:18:14,820 --> 00:18:18,310 daunting at the outset. But when you play it out in your 327 00:18:18,320 --> 00:18:21,760 head in the way that suits you, you can find ways to simplify it 328 00:18:21,770 --> 00:18:24,050 a little bit. And, you know, as a practical 329 00:18:24,110 --> 00:18:27,730 reference, sometimes I will, you know, write things down, draw 330 00:18:27,740 --> 00:18:30,530 things out, you know, record them and listen back to them. 331 00:18:30,540 --> 00:18:32,830 And it seems, you know, silly almost. 332 00:18:32,840 --> 00:18:34,880 But I think, you know, particularly when you're dealing 333 00:18:34,890 --> 00:18:36,580 with something complex and you want to make sure that you 334 00:18:36,590 --> 00:18:38,530 understand it. Look it First off, it never 335 00:18:38,540 --> 00:18:40,620 hurts to ask questions, you know, particularly when you're 336 00:18:40,630 --> 00:18:43,010 being thoughtful about it and you've already made a level of 337 00:18:43,020 --> 00:18:45,130 effort to, to understand the issues. 338 00:18:45,140 --> 00:18:48,090 Any questions that address the gaps and demonstrate that you 339 00:18:48,100 --> 00:18:51,010 have clearly attempted to to learn this yourself are 340 00:18:51,020 --> 00:18:53,840 typically welcome. But even beyond that, I think 341 00:18:53,850 --> 00:18:57,450 being able to navigate and understanding complex issues in 342 00:18:57,460 --> 00:19:00,550 a way that is receptive to you is is very helpful. 343 00:19:00,610 --> 00:19:04,160 I remember when I was in government, I had already been 344 00:19:04,170 --> 00:19:07,880 working on large JV projects as a consultant for many years. 345 00:19:07,950 --> 00:19:11,890 So I walked in thinking like, OK, I should understand this. 346 00:19:11,900 --> 00:19:14,120 This should be, you know, fairly familiar. 347 00:19:14,130 --> 00:19:17,390 And when I started working on it and I don't know what it is, I 348 00:19:17,400 --> 00:19:20,660 think a law degree comes with a very high degree of self doubt. 349 00:19:20,670 --> 00:19:23,260 So I began to question whether I knew what I actually knew. 350 00:19:23,270 --> 00:19:27,390 And I just had to, you know, take a moment, deep breath, 351 00:19:27,400 --> 00:19:31,250 pause, draw out the structure of how the JV was set up on the 352 00:19:31,260 --> 00:19:33,830 project that I was, I was working on supporting. 353 00:19:34,580 --> 00:19:38,750 And that helped, that helped a lot because I was like, OK, this 354 00:19:38,820 --> 00:19:40,820 isn't so complex. And then I asked you a couple of 355 00:19:40,830 --> 00:19:43,610 questions from my colleagues to make sure that, you know, I 356 00:19:43,620 --> 00:19:46,470 really understood what in fact, I thought I understood. 357 00:19:46,480 --> 00:19:48,250 And they were able to confirm it. 358 00:19:48,300 --> 00:19:51,610 You know, since then, now that self doubt will always be there. 359 00:19:51,680 --> 00:19:55,450 I think that anytime you, you feel like the stakes are high, 360 00:19:55,460 --> 00:19:57,690 you, you question your capability, you know, with a bit 361 00:19:57,700 --> 00:20:00,380 of practice and, you know, a little bit of time and, and 362 00:20:00,390 --> 00:20:02,970 thoughtfulness, I really don't think that there's any. 363 00:20:03,880 --> 00:20:07,680 Particular area of law that is truly rocket science. 364 00:20:07,690 --> 00:20:10,890 I mean, there are incredibly intelligent lawyers out there 365 00:20:10,990 --> 00:20:15,310 who you can also again, use this as resources to tap into, but at 366 00:20:15,320 --> 00:20:18,200 least have like a baseline understanding what's on my 367 00:20:18,210 --> 00:20:20,180 effort. I think I think most people are 368 00:20:20,190 --> 00:20:21,470 very capable. I love that. 369 00:20:21,480 --> 00:20:23,290 Thank you so much for sharing it. 370 00:20:23,440 --> 00:20:27,020 And I know you're being involved in, in quite a few different 371 00:20:27,030 --> 00:20:30,210 projects you've been involved in, in pro bono work, in access 372 00:20:30,220 --> 00:20:33,470 to justice initiatives and a lot of mentorship as well. 373 00:20:33,520 --> 00:20:36,370 So I'm curious, you know, how, how do you think that lawyers 374 00:20:36,380 --> 00:20:39,710 can stay connected should should that side of the profession? 375 00:20:39,720 --> 00:20:42,130 So I have to give credit where it's due. 376 00:20:42,140 --> 00:20:45,590 I got that from my parents. I have been a lifelong volunteer 377 00:20:45,600 --> 00:20:48,730 because I've always been thought that's responsibility that I 378 00:20:48,740 --> 00:20:51,690 have and I found it incredibly enriching and rewarding to be 379 00:20:51,700 --> 00:20:54,550 able to get back in in every which way I possibly can. 380 00:20:54,740 --> 00:20:57,870 I think that the level of effort that it takes for an individual 381 00:20:57,880 --> 00:21:02,030 to do that pays off dramatically more for the recipient of that 382 00:21:02,100 --> 00:21:05,230 assistance. And so for me, it's the best 383 00:21:05,240 --> 00:21:08,310 investment you can possibly make of your time and whether it's 384 00:21:08,320 --> 00:21:10,750 pro bono work, which by the way, I think that has made me a 385 00:21:10,760 --> 00:21:13,600 better lawyer always. You know, I think about some of 386 00:21:13,610 --> 00:21:16,290 the legal aid clinics I've worked with and supported and 387 00:21:16,300 --> 00:21:18,910 being able to provide for blowing advice to people that I 388 00:21:18,920 --> 00:21:22,830 know or or have have come to me. You have to be responsible in 389 00:21:22,840 --> 00:21:24,510 doing so. You have to be very thoughtful. 390 00:21:24,880 --> 00:21:27,830 But that I think sometimes increased standard of care. 391 00:21:28,140 --> 00:21:32,460 Is it really, it really improves your capability. 392 00:21:32,550 --> 00:21:37,510 And so I, I recommend it to, to anyone, like, I mean, access to 393 00:21:37,520 --> 00:21:42,380 justice is a huge challenge. And, you know, whether you were 394 00:21:42,390 --> 00:21:47,390 doing things in your community or at a global level, you know, 395 00:21:47,400 --> 00:21:51,690 we are all citizens and we have the gift of advocacy as lawyers. 396 00:21:51,760 --> 00:21:54,370 And that's something that I think that we should, we should 397 00:21:54,380 --> 00:21:56,430 take forward any way that we are able to do. 398 00:21:56,520 --> 00:21:59,070 I think that that's a, a responsibility that we all have. 399 00:21:59,080 --> 00:22:01,850 And as far as mentorship is concerned, I've been very 400 00:22:01,860 --> 00:22:03,430 fortunate to have incredible mentors. 401 00:22:03,440 --> 00:22:06,550 I'm simply, you know, passing along along the great advice 402 00:22:06,560 --> 00:22:09,230 that I've received and and I welcome having those 403 00:22:09,240 --> 00:22:11,250 conversations at at any opportunity. 404 00:22:11,310 --> 00:22:14,030 Is there a piece of advice that you'd like to give to someone 405 00:22:14,040 --> 00:22:17,030 trying to build, you know, a global, future oriented legal 406 00:22:17,040 --> 00:22:18,630 career? Somebody different? 407 00:22:18,640 --> 00:22:22,060 Great pieces of advice they received overtime, but the one I 408 00:22:22,070 --> 00:22:25,760 always come back to is the one for my parents around that 409 00:22:25,850 --> 00:22:28,800 values, values translate no matter where you go, values 410 00:22:28,810 --> 00:22:31,100 translate. I think that sometimes feel 411 00:22:31,110 --> 00:22:34,860 conscious about how they fit in and depending on the context 412 00:22:34,930 --> 00:22:37,980 you're you're in and the people that you're around, that can 413 00:22:37,990 --> 00:22:40,320 certainly feel daunting and sometimes rightfully so. 414 00:22:40,390 --> 00:22:43,890 But I will say that being kind, being decent, staying true to 415 00:22:43,900 --> 00:22:47,710 your values, irrespective of, you know, whether those are 416 00:22:47,720 --> 00:22:50,580 necessarily reflected back at you, I think has always paid 417 00:22:50,590 --> 00:22:54,710 off. I think that ultimately, you 418 00:22:54,720 --> 00:22:58,220 know, decency, it really does overwhelm other things. 419 00:22:58,290 --> 00:23:02,140 And I think that that also means sometimes decency and respect 420 00:23:02,190 --> 00:23:05,260 and, and these types of values that are, are often shared 421 00:23:05,270 --> 00:23:07,160 values. They also dictate you 422 00:23:07,170 --> 00:23:10,400 professionally because if you somebody gives you a task, you 423 00:23:10,410 --> 00:23:13,460 have family values and understanding and the respect to 424 00:23:13,530 --> 00:23:18,360 put hard work into that and deliver and turn that around and 425 00:23:18,370 --> 00:23:21,300 be clear in your communications to the extent that you're able. 426 00:23:21,350 --> 00:23:24,520 I think that that is that's always been the guiding light 427 00:23:24,530 --> 00:23:26,030 for me. And I think that it's something 428 00:23:26,040 --> 00:23:29,430 that I hope people can kind of take forward as as relatable to 429 00:23:29,440 --> 00:23:31,500 them irrespective of where those values. 430 00:23:31,510 --> 00:23:34,130 Derived from fantastic and I just wanted to thank you once 431 00:23:34,140 --> 00:23:36,100 again for making the time to come on the show. 432 00:23:36,110 --> 00:23:38,260 And thank you all for tuning into today's episodes and 433 00:23:38,270 --> 00:23:40,560 listening to this episode. Thank you so much for having me, 434 00:23:40,630 --> 00:23:41,760 I really appreciate it.