1 00:00:12,870 --> 00:00:14,880 Welcome to Studying Law Around the World. 2 00:00:15,010 --> 00:00:17,860 I'm Claudio Claus. In each episode, I talk with 3 00:00:17,870 --> 00:00:20,840 lawyers, law students, and professors from different parts 4 00:00:20,850 --> 00:00:24,740 of the world to talk about legal education, careers, and what the 5 00:00:24,750 --> 00:00:26,420 profession looks like in real life. 6 00:00:26,430 --> 00:00:29,470 We talk about the hard parts, the surprises, and the decisions 7 00:00:29,480 --> 00:00:32,259 that shaped their paths. Whether you're planning to study 8 00:00:32,270 --> 00:00:35,520 abroad, thinking about working in another legal system, or just 9 00:00:35,530 --> 00:00:39,640 curious about how law works around the world, this podcast 10 00:00:39,650 --> 00:00:44,850 is for you. Hey listeners, the largest 11 00:00:44,860 --> 00:00:47,690 gathering of internationally trained lawyers in Canada is 12 00:00:47,700 --> 00:00:51,990 happening at the ITO conference in Toronto on April 24th and 13 00:00:52,000 --> 00:00:54,450 25th. Secure your spot at the 14 00:00:54,460 --> 00:00:57,450 conference and gala today by registering on 15 00:00:57,460 --> 00:01:02,250 www.itlconference.ca. See you at the Marriott 16 00:01:02,260 --> 00:01:04,220 downtown. Hello everybody, Welcome to 17 00:01:04,230 --> 00:01:06,290 another episode of Studying Law around the World. 18 00:01:06,340 --> 00:01:08,950 Today I have the opportunity to host Rachel Sachs. 19 00:01:09,080 --> 00:01:12,350 She's a Filipino, German, Canadian lawyer striving to 20 00:01:12,360 --> 00:01:15,040 improve accessibility to the law for her clients. 21 00:01:15,050 --> 00:01:19,470 She has intentionally designed her practice for older adults in 22 00:01:19,480 --> 00:01:22,650 memory of her much belonged grandparents and as a way to 23 00:01:22,660 --> 00:01:26,040 honor the many wonderful older adults who have impacted and 24 00:01:26,050 --> 00:01:28,700 influenced her life. Thank you so much for being in 25 00:01:28,710 --> 00:01:30,770 the podcast today. Really, really appreciate you 26 00:01:30,780 --> 00:01:32,650 being here, Rachel. Paul, thank you so much for 27 00:01:32,660 --> 00:01:35,460 having me, Claudio. It's such a treat to be put off 28 00:01:35,470 --> 00:01:37,940 next to some of the fabulous voices that you've had so far. 29 00:01:38,010 --> 00:01:40,570 That's very kind of you. I was very much looking forward 30 00:01:40,580 --> 00:01:42,490 to having you in the podcast today. 31 00:01:42,500 --> 00:01:44,980 And just start us off. I'd love for you to introduce 32 00:01:44,990 --> 00:01:47,220 yourself to our listeners and share a little bit about your 33 00:01:47,230 --> 00:01:49,540 back. OK, so well you did a great 34 00:01:49,550 --> 00:01:53,080 introduction to start with, but so I founded my practice soon 35 00:01:53,090 --> 00:01:55,100 after my call to the bar in 2017. 36 00:01:55,110 --> 00:01:56,900 Sacks Law Professional Corporation. 37 00:01:56,950 --> 00:02:01,300 We focus on elder law, estates and civil litigation, mostly for 38 00:02:01,310 --> 00:02:03,540 older and aging adults across Ontario. 39 00:02:03,550 --> 00:02:07,900 But recently I have started taking on some disability cases 40 00:02:07,910 --> 00:02:12,430 as well because a lot of the similarity and the overlap refer 41 00:02:12,440 --> 00:02:15,640 to myself as a seniors lawyer specifically because most of my 42 00:02:15,650 --> 00:02:20,050 work focuses on protecting the autonomy, dignity rights of 43 00:02:20,060 --> 00:02:23,570 older adults, making sure that they have an opportunity to feel 44 00:02:23,580 --> 00:02:27,470 heard within the law, which is something that like very 45 00:02:27,480 --> 00:02:30,690 frequently get told that they just are feeling ignored and 46 00:02:30,700 --> 00:02:33,050 know kind of baffled by everything times little baffled 47 00:02:33,060 --> 00:02:35,690 by everything. I am also mixed race. 48 00:02:35,740 --> 00:02:38,550 And so growing up, I kind of felt like I never really quite 49 00:02:38,560 --> 00:02:40,930 fit into one box. And so I think that sort of 50 00:02:41,000 --> 00:02:44,570 general sense of standing on the outside kind of taught me to 51 00:02:44,640 --> 00:02:47,410 build my own place. And I've done that sort of 52 00:02:47,420 --> 00:02:49,870 repeatedly throughout my life and now with my practice. 53 00:02:49,880 --> 00:02:53,760 And I've always had this, I guess, words to try and help 54 00:02:53,770 --> 00:02:57,970 folks who might have also had similar experiences or been made 55 00:02:57,980 --> 00:03:00,880 to feel like outsiders in a lot of different contexts. 56 00:03:00,890 --> 00:03:03,680 And I think it has sort of coloured my general world view. 57 00:03:03,690 --> 00:03:06,930 The organizations I was engaged with early on in the law, like 58 00:03:06,940 --> 00:03:10,730 the OA's Women Lawyers Forum and Rhoda and other organizations 59 00:03:10,740 --> 00:03:14,500 like that doing, you know, some access to justice work early on 60 00:03:14,510 --> 00:03:16,670 as well. And yeah, so I, I studied in the 61 00:03:16,680 --> 00:03:19,980 UK for law school. I also studied in Canada various 62 00:03:19,990 --> 00:03:22,240 places. And then I did the law practice 63 00:03:22,250 --> 00:03:23,960 program. And that's I guess how I. 64 00:03:23,970 --> 00:03:28,860 Got here for sharing a little bit of that and and thanks for 65 00:03:28,870 --> 00:03:31,300 explaining a little bit about this this design of your 66 00:03:31,310 --> 00:03:33,340 practice with older adults in mind. 67 00:03:33,410 --> 00:03:36,060 I'm curious, if you don't mind me asking your website does 68 00:03:36,070 --> 00:03:38,160 mention you know a little bit about the influence of your 69 00:03:38,170 --> 00:03:40,580 grandparents. So why don't you ask, you know, 70 00:03:40,590 --> 00:03:45,040 if those family experiences, how they shaped the way you see law 71 00:03:45,050 --> 00:03:47,780 and service today, since you already mentioned a little bit 72 00:03:47,790 --> 00:03:50,140 of helping inform your. Yeah, definitely. 73 00:03:50,430 --> 00:03:52,050 Well, I think there were a couple of things. 74 00:03:52,060 --> 00:03:53,480 When I was little, I was an avid reader. 75 00:03:53,490 --> 00:03:56,420 I read far more than I read now. I wish I could get back to that, 76 00:03:56,430 --> 00:03:58,840 but I think we all do. Once we get into the practice of 77 00:03:58,850 --> 00:04:01,730 law, it's just like reading all sort of becomes a chore as well. 78 00:04:01,810 --> 00:04:06,160 But I read a lot and it was kind of my escape and my, I had two 79 00:04:06,170 --> 00:04:09,580 older brothers. And when I was, I think about 80 00:04:09,620 --> 00:04:14,400 12, my eldest brother suffered a pretty severe accident that left 81 00:04:14,410 --> 00:04:17,279 him quadriplegic. And so all of a sudden, you 82 00:04:17,290 --> 00:04:20,390 know, my family was cast into this sort of legal battle 83 00:04:20,399 --> 00:04:25,340 against the city of Alhambra, which city, one of the Great 84 00:04:25,350 --> 00:04:29,790 Lakes where he'd had his injury. And it was just, you know, this 85 00:04:29,800 --> 00:04:35,530 whole awful thing with insurance and, you know, like 10 lawyers 86 00:04:35,540 --> 00:04:38,080 from the insurance company. And my brother is 2 lawyers 87 00:04:38,090 --> 00:04:41,130 who'd taken his case pro bono. And I think like the way that 88 00:04:41,140 --> 00:04:43,570 they interact, the lawyers interact with my brother, the 89 00:04:43,580 --> 00:04:46,840 way that they treated him, the kind of lack of appropriate care 90 00:04:46,850 --> 00:04:51,280 system was in place for him also really impacted a lot of my 91 00:04:51,290 --> 00:04:54,840 early sort of outlooks of what, what a lawyer does and what what 92 00:04:54,850 --> 00:04:59,040 a lawyer should be doing. And then with my grandparents, I 93 00:04:59,050 --> 00:05:02,290 was very close throughout all of my childhood to my grandparents. 94 00:05:02,300 --> 00:05:04,200 And around that time, what happened to my brother, you 95 00:05:04,210 --> 00:05:08,510 know, my, my grandfather also passed away at a similar point 96 00:05:08,520 --> 00:05:10,680 in time. And we were, we were so, so very 97 00:05:10,690 --> 00:05:13,600 tight. He was my absolute favorite 98 00:05:13,650 --> 00:05:15,220 relative. You know, he'd been through a 99 00:05:15,230 --> 00:05:20,350 lot, but was always extremely cheerful and happy and all. 100 00:05:20,360 --> 00:05:23,290 He was just always there for us. So like he just accomplished so 101 00:05:23,300 --> 00:05:26,270 much throughout his life And he could do anything. 102 00:05:26,280 --> 00:05:28,530 He could grow any plants. He, you know, make it the most 103 00:05:28,540 --> 00:05:29,970 amazing doughnuts, bread, whatever. 104 00:05:29,980 --> 00:05:32,670 And he was just always there like always like a stalwart, 105 00:05:32,680 --> 00:05:34,950 sturdy man in the midst of everything. 106 00:05:35,020 --> 00:05:38,260 And my grandmother, she was a real fighter. 107 00:05:38,270 --> 00:05:41,850 She did not have, you know, any formal education in her life. 108 00:05:41,860 --> 00:05:45,370 She got married quite young. She never, she never really 109 00:05:45,380 --> 00:05:48,770 learned to read. And she managed when she came to 110 00:05:48,780 --> 00:05:52,970 Canada to buy three properties, you know, men and paid them all 111 00:05:52,980 --> 00:05:56,660 off and they'll all fully owned. And she ran her own bed and 112 00:05:56,670 --> 00:06:00,250 breakfast company for, you know, a long time, like most of my 113 00:06:00,260 --> 00:06:02,790 childhood. And it was just, you know, 114 00:06:02,870 --> 00:06:06,790 having her be that while I was growing up and then when I came 115 00:06:06,800 --> 00:06:10,330 back from university to find her kind of reverting back to being 116 00:06:10,340 --> 00:06:14,130 a child because of her dementia. And then having to help with my, 117 00:06:14,190 --> 00:06:17,690 you know, my dad with caring for her and making sure that she was 118 00:06:17,700 --> 00:06:21,110 safe and that she was getting access to the services that she 119 00:06:21,120 --> 00:06:23,770 needed. And just saying like all the 120 00:06:23,780 --> 00:06:27,410 absolute failings in home care, you know, it took me a really 121 00:06:27,420 --> 00:06:29,860 long time to get to the seniors law practice. 122 00:06:29,870 --> 00:06:31,010 Like I didn't start out that way. 123 00:06:31,020 --> 00:06:33,810 I was practicing like try my head and all kinds of other 124 00:06:33,820 --> 00:06:36,450 things before this. But eventually like it just sort 125 00:06:36,460 --> 00:06:39,130 of once I was able to sort of come to terms with her death 126 00:06:39,140 --> 00:06:42,100 after that, which happened actually right at the end of the 127 00:06:42,110 --> 00:06:47,150 LP or in the middle of the LP. It was not good time. 128 00:06:47,900 --> 00:06:50,900 And that's how I just kind of a couple of years later decided, 129 00:06:50,910 --> 00:06:53,550 you know, like this is something that I I think I need to do. 130 00:06:53,960 --> 00:06:58,490 I'm was at a place where I could really properly kind of go all 131 00:06:58,500 --> 00:07:00,230 into it. So right before the pandemic, I 132 00:07:00,240 --> 00:07:03,090 decided this is a great time to start a practice for older 133 00:07:03,100 --> 00:07:04,970 adults. Yeah, what a story. 134 00:07:05,040 --> 00:07:08,640 I'm glad, you know, you see this opportunity to, you know, with 135 00:07:08,650 --> 00:07:12,180 your professional endeavors to honor their memory and and 136 00:07:12,190 --> 00:07:14,570 that's, that's truly beautiful. Thank you for sharing that. 137 00:07:14,640 --> 00:07:17,330 Thinking about a little bit about, about what you said on 138 00:07:17,340 --> 00:07:19,510 your introduction, you did mention that you studied in 139 00:07:19,520 --> 00:07:22,490 Canada and abroad. And I'm curious too, I feel like 140 00:07:22,500 --> 00:07:25,550 a lot of people that I speak with in the podcast, when they 141 00:07:25,560 --> 00:07:28,580 have these, these opportunities to, you know, get you go to 142 00:07:28,590 --> 00:07:31,700 another country, see, I'll sometimes another system or even 143 00:07:31,710 --> 00:07:34,140 like a very similar system does things differently. 144 00:07:34,150 --> 00:07:36,140 It usually informs a lot of the worldview. 145 00:07:36,150 --> 00:07:40,120 It does bring a lot of insights and really lots of good memories 146 00:07:40,130 --> 00:07:43,800 for the rest of peoples lives. And I was curious, you know, if 147 00:07:43,810 --> 00:07:46,580 those experiences for you also changed a little bit of the way 148 00:07:46,590 --> 00:07:50,580 you, you think about, you know, community, clients, leadership, 149 00:07:50,640 --> 00:07:52,780 if it also informs your viewing that way. 150 00:07:52,830 --> 00:07:55,870 Yeah, I think absolutely. Like I grew up in Toronto, so 151 00:07:55,990 --> 00:07:59,780 you know, I you know, my school is very was pretty diverse for 152 00:07:59,790 --> 00:08:02,210 its time period. Well, I say pretty diverse. 153 00:08:02,220 --> 00:08:05,340 I was still like one of two Asian people in the school or 154 00:08:05,450 --> 00:08:07,070 maybe 3, maybe there were three of us. 155 00:08:07,080 --> 00:08:13,170 Anyway, I found though, when I like Toronto was a weird kind of 156 00:08:13,180 --> 00:08:14,590 place. It's a little bit insular. 157 00:08:14,680 --> 00:08:18,730 We really didn't have exposure to things like indigenous 158 00:08:18,740 --> 00:08:23,490 communities growing up. And I So what I initially went 159 00:08:23,570 --> 00:08:27,010 away to school at West, it was kind of like a big shock to the 160 00:08:27,020 --> 00:08:31,070 system as to like all of these, all of these things that were 161 00:08:31,080 --> 00:08:35,190 kind of told or, or sort of espoused within the like Toronto 162 00:08:35,280 --> 00:08:38,809 cultural atmosphere that just we're just not at all true 163 00:08:38,820 --> 00:08:41,049 about, you know, like all kinds of terrible. 164 00:08:41,280 --> 00:08:42,909 What's the word piece that people would say about 165 00:08:42,919 --> 00:08:44,730 Indigenous people and none of them are true. 166 00:08:45,260 --> 00:08:48,810 So I really had the opportunity to meet with other people and, 167 00:08:48,820 --> 00:08:51,490 and kind of grow from those experiences. 168 00:08:51,500 --> 00:08:54,260 But as well, like lives in the UK, like, again, it's, you know, 169 00:08:54,270 --> 00:08:55,770 it's a completely different space. 170 00:08:55,840 --> 00:08:58,730 People interact differently. They had the care about 171 00:08:58,740 --> 00:09:01,590 different things. You kind of have to learn to 172 00:09:01,600 --> 00:09:04,820 navigate this whole new system, understanding people. 173 00:09:04,830 --> 00:09:08,740 I had one for Kessler in law school and he was Scottish. 174 00:09:08,750 --> 00:09:10,840 And it was my first encounter with a Scottish person. 175 00:09:10,850 --> 00:09:14,260 And I could not understand him at all for like the first three 176 00:09:14,270 --> 00:09:18,040 months of our course that at one point as well, I was like one of 177 00:09:18,050 --> 00:09:20,680 the only the students there that had a computer. 178 00:09:20,770 --> 00:09:23,540 And at one point he was like, are you watching a TV in my 179 00:09:23,550 --> 00:09:26,640 class? And I was like, no, this was, 180 00:09:26,690 --> 00:09:29,320 you know, like I also, can I copy this? 181 00:09:29,330 --> 00:09:32,460 I did my law degree like several years before my calls to the bar 182 00:09:32,790 --> 00:09:34,800 because of the caring for my grandmother and all that stuff. 183 00:09:34,810 --> 00:09:37,260 So there was a big gap. But so, so this was in a time 184 00:09:37,270 --> 00:09:39,830 period when it wasn't as common for students all have their 185 00:09:39,840 --> 00:09:43,090 laptops, like outing class. And there were maybe two of us 186 00:09:43,100 --> 00:09:46,310 in the class who had laptops. And so he, you know, very 187 00:09:46,320 --> 00:09:48,040 rightfully called me out. Like, are you paying attention 188 00:09:48,050 --> 00:09:51,150 to my class? And I at this point, like it 189 00:09:51,160 --> 00:09:53,290 took me a little while to sort of figure out what he was 190 00:09:53,300 --> 00:09:55,010 saying. And I didn't really get, was 191 00:09:55,020 --> 00:09:58,090 able to get a response to him. But, you know, just like those 192 00:09:58,100 --> 00:09:59,450 kinds of things. I learned so much from that 193 00:09:59,460 --> 00:10:01,670 professor though as well. And his wife, they were both 194 00:10:01,730 --> 00:10:04,890 fabulous, fabulous teachers. And I feel like there was a 195 00:10:04,900 --> 00:10:07,510 twofold effect. So when I studied in the UK, I 196 00:10:07,520 --> 00:10:09,510 found that like, I've always been a pretty good student. 197 00:10:09,520 --> 00:10:12,090 But when I got to the UK, like I learned how to be like an 198 00:10:12,100 --> 00:10:15,930 amazing student. So, you know, I learned how to 199 00:10:15,980 --> 00:10:18,740 find my voice in school. I was always very shy and never 200 00:10:18,750 --> 00:10:21,690 really spoke out that much, but I was by myself in the UK, like 201 00:10:21,700 --> 00:10:26,340 I had to adapt very quickly. I had to make friends new, like, 202 00:10:26,350 --> 00:10:29,810 I, you know, previously had been the third child and everybody 203 00:10:29,820 --> 00:10:32,760 knew who I was like, oh, you're the sibling of blah, blah, blah. 204 00:10:32,770 --> 00:10:35,260 So you must be like them. And so it kind of gave me a 205 00:10:35,270 --> 00:10:37,460 chance to come out of my shell a little bit and develop and 206 00:10:37,470 --> 00:10:40,280 figure out, you know, who I wanted to be, what kind of 207 00:10:40,290 --> 00:10:43,010 person I wanted to be, what kind of people I wanted to engage 208 00:10:43,020 --> 00:10:45,020 with. My, I also got to see like 209 00:10:45,090 --> 00:10:48,060 instances of racism. Oh my gosh, I was, I, I went to 210 00:10:48,070 --> 00:10:51,290 school in Sheffield in the UK and man, did I get a lot of 211 00:10:51,300 --> 00:10:53,110 races in my way for all kinds of things. 212 00:10:53,120 --> 00:10:55,640 We are called all kinds of terrible names because I was not 213 00:10:55,850 --> 00:11:00,120 as white as many of the people around, but it was not like 214 00:11:00,130 --> 00:11:02,820 weirdly. So that level racism was 215 00:11:02,830 --> 00:11:05,130 interesting. It was more like, that's curious 216 00:11:05,140 --> 00:11:08,910 that this is happening in this place, whereas I find when I 217 00:11:08,920 --> 00:11:12,330 encounter similar things, you know, in Canada or from my own 218 00:11:12,340 --> 00:11:15,350 communities, and that's where it really gets under your skin and 219 00:11:15,360 --> 00:11:16,990 really sticks with you for a long time. 220 00:11:17,060 --> 00:11:19,480 And so sometimes when those things happen to my clients, 221 00:11:19,490 --> 00:11:22,630 like I know, you know, a lot of lawyers encourage us to be more 222 00:11:22,640 --> 00:11:27,850 dispassionate advocates. And I, I do see some merit in 223 00:11:27,860 --> 00:11:29,870 that. But I also see merit in in 224 00:11:29,880 --> 00:11:32,610 really caring for what your clients is going through and 225 00:11:32,620 --> 00:11:35,890 making sure that you are a source that can try and make 226 00:11:35,900 --> 00:11:38,450 things a little bit easier for them that makes any. 227 00:11:38,460 --> 00:11:40,610 Sense, absolutely. Well, thank you so much for 228 00:11:40,620 --> 00:11:42,810 that. I see here too that before 229 00:11:42,820 --> 00:11:45,690 building your own practice, you had quite a few different work 230 00:11:45,700 --> 00:11:49,290 experiences in charities, in financial institutions, in small 231 00:11:49,300 --> 00:11:52,150 businesses. So I'm always curious to know, 232 00:11:52,160 --> 00:11:56,090 you know, if those experiences and, and how those experiences 233 00:11:56,160 --> 00:11:59,190 made you become the person you are today and really the lawyer 234 00:11:59,200 --> 00:12:01,950 you you strive to be. Yeah, I think, I think that's 235 00:12:01,990 --> 00:12:03,520 definitely they, they had an impact. 236 00:12:03,530 --> 00:12:06,850 Like I, I feel like our earlier rules really do shape how we 237 00:12:06,860 --> 00:12:10,250 practice, like avidly encourage people to and young students 238 00:12:10,260 --> 00:12:14,100 when I meet them to not go straight into law to try and 239 00:12:14,110 --> 00:12:18,560 figure out, you know what, who you are without coming into our 240 00:12:18,570 --> 00:12:21,140 professional, which is very strongly like you are a lawyer, 241 00:12:21,150 --> 00:12:23,220 like this is who you are, this is what you must do. 242 00:12:23,290 --> 00:12:25,460 This is your identity. You know, one thing that I 243 00:12:25,470 --> 00:12:29,220 learned also in the UK is that law is, it's not our identity, 244 00:12:29,350 --> 00:12:31,780 it's just, it's our job, it's our career. 245 00:12:31,790 --> 00:12:34,820 Sure. But like you, we are all so much 246 00:12:34,830 --> 00:12:36,790 more than that. So we need to kind of embrace 247 00:12:36,800 --> 00:12:38,160 that. And what I think with a lot of 248 00:12:38,170 --> 00:12:42,400 the work that I did before and a lot of those roles kind of told 249 00:12:42,410 --> 00:12:46,460 me that, you know, law, it's not a silo, it is an ecosystem. 250 00:12:46,470 --> 00:12:50,200 We are just like one piece and a bigger puzzle and we have to 251 00:12:50,210 --> 00:12:54,430 figure out how we work well with those other people and puzzle 252 00:12:54,440 --> 00:12:56,690 pieces. What are other small businesses 253 00:12:56,700 --> 00:12:58,410 looking for? What are the people you 254 00:12:58,420 --> 00:13:00,650 encounter? How do you serve clients on a 255 00:13:00,700 --> 00:13:04,390 sort of a, a more, a closer basis where you're not funneling 256 00:13:04,400 --> 00:13:06,640 them through a number of different people before they 257 00:13:06,650 --> 00:13:09,870 actually get to the person or thing that they need? 258 00:13:09,920 --> 00:13:14,130 And then the bigger business is, well, I mean, like financial 259 00:13:14,140 --> 00:13:16,080 institutions, I worked in compliance. 260 00:13:16,090 --> 00:13:20,460 So that was really helpful because I did get a lot of very 261 00:13:20,470 --> 00:13:25,500 good understanding of risk metrics and how the financial 262 00:13:25,510 --> 00:13:28,850 and business world looks at risk and financial crimes. 263 00:13:28,920 --> 00:13:33,360 And I think as you may be aware, as your listeners are probably 264 00:13:33,370 --> 00:13:37,540 aware, lawyers have increasing obligations within these global 265 00:13:37,550 --> 00:13:41,080 financial crime reporting. And, and I think that is really 266 00:13:41,090 --> 00:13:43,170 important. I found that what it really 267 00:13:43,180 --> 00:13:45,740 called me is that I wanted to get back to people and that's 268 00:13:45,750 --> 00:13:48,820 why I left the banks. I really wanted to deal. 269 00:13:48,830 --> 00:13:51,130 I really wanted to have those conversations with like science. 270 00:13:51,140 --> 00:13:53,990 I wanted to hear what was going on in their lives and see if 271 00:13:54,000 --> 00:13:55,320 there was a way that I can help them. 272 00:13:55,330 --> 00:14:00,750 And I, I try to now take clients that I actually like that I want 273 00:14:00,760 --> 00:14:02,540 to work with and that I want to spend time with. 274 00:14:02,590 --> 00:14:05,420 I think that's really important for all of us because we do 275 00:14:05,430 --> 00:14:08,980 spend so much time at work. But yeah, I mean, sometimes I 276 00:14:08,990 --> 00:14:12,340 feel like it would be great to just have another job. 277 00:14:12,380 --> 00:14:15,520 You know, there's your law job and then there's like you're fun 278 00:14:15,530 --> 00:14:22,350 job or another some other way. You can just be that contributor 279 00:14:22,360 --> 00:14:24,750 if you have extra something to contribute. 280 00:14:24,760 --> 00:14:27,930 And maybe that's why I have gotten myself in broiled and all 281 00:14:27,940 --> 00:14:31,210 the volunteer organizations because I I think there is 282 00:14:31,280 --> 00:14:35,410 there's so much that feeds are all an individual souls and 283 00:14:35,460 --> 00:14:38,740 sometimes it is really hard to find that and it does change. 284 00:14:38,750 --> 00:14:42,010 And so having something else that you can focus on, whether 285 00:14:42,020 --> 00:14:47,020 it's, you know, your second job or your, your dream job and your 286 00:14:47,030 --> 00:14:51,720 law job and your family, of course, it just gives you that 287 00:14:51,730 --> 00:14:55,880 little extra push to do better in, in all of the sort of realms 288 00:14:55,890 --> 00:14:57,780 of your. Amazing. 289 00:14:57,790 --> 00:15:00,620 I found it interesting that that you had these connections with 290 00:15:00,630 --> 00:15:03,620 the financial world and mentioned the questions and 291 00:15:03,630 --> 00:15:06,520 reporting and all of that. And with all of that in mind, 292 00:15:06,530 --> 00:15:09,860 I'm sure that the population that you serve as well, at least 293 00:15:09,910 --> 00:15:13,620 from what we hear out there are unfortunately victims of of many 294 00:15:13,630 --> 00:15:15,500 kinds of financial crimes as well. 295 00:15:15,570 --> 00:15:17,880 But I'd love to hear a little more, you know, you just said 296 00:15:17,890 --> 00:15:20,320 about, you know, the, the volunteer work you're involved 297 00:15:20,330 --> 00:15:22,650 in. I know you're mentoring many 298 00:15:22,660 --> 00:15:28,240 organizations, mostly towards internationally trained lawyers 299 00:15:28,250 --> 00:15:30,840 and, and I'm curious to hear a little bit about that. 300 00:15:30,850 --> 00:15:33,780 I know there's a big conference coming up in Toronto as well, 301 00:15:33,790 --> 00:15:36,720 but tell me, tell me more about, you know, this experience with 302 00:15:36,730 --> 00:15:39,720 mentorship, with volunteering at the big conference and, and 303 00:15:39,770 --> 00:15:42,640 even, you know, what do you, what would you wish that younger 304 00:15:42,650 --> 00:15:45,720 lawyers understand about building this career? 305 00:15:45,790 --> 00:15:49,320 That is a big question. Well, you know, I think younger 306 00:15:49,330 --> 00:15:52,080 lawyers need to sort of understand themselves to begin 307 00:15:52,090 --> 00:15:54,570 with. I feel like that is a key 308 00:15:54,610 --> 00:15:57,300 factor. Like when I first started, I, 309 00:15:57,310 --> 00:15:59,180 you know, I went, I had a bunch of mentors. 310 00:15:59,250 --> 00:16:01,680 I didn't really know what to do with that when I first started 311 00:16:01,690 --> 00:16:03,050 out. Like I didn't like there are 312 00:16:03,060 --> 00:16:05,720 these guys and they kind of tell you, but like, if you aren't 313 00:16:05,730 --> 00:16:08,760 really sure about yourself, where are your directions or 314 00:16:08,770 --> 00:16:10,510 where you want to be. And I thought I knew, I didn't 315 00:16:10,520 --> 00:16:13,500 think that I knew where I wanted to be, but where I thought I 316 00:16:13,510 --> 00:16:16,280 wanted to be with an environmental lawyer or possibly 317 00:16:16,350 --> 00:16:19,090 construction lawyer. And I am a very far removed 318 00:16:19,100 --> 00:16:21,890 thing from those, those two items at the moment. 319 00:16:21,980 --> 00:16:23,970 So we know, we never really know. 320 00:16:23,980 --> 00:16:27,410 And I feel like there's, you know, underlying wants and needs 321 00:16:27,420 --> 00:16:30,960 for all of us that if you don't really take time to just sit 322 00:16:30,970 --> 00:16:35,090 with yourself and consider that you'll, you'll never be able to 323 00:16:35,100 --> 00:16:38,110 express them to someone else in a way that we kind of need to 324 00:16:38,120 --> 00:16:39,310 when we're dealing with a mentor. 325 00:16:39,320 --> 00:16:42,680 Because the, the fact is, is that the mentees have to drive 326 00:16:42,690 --> 00:16:44,700 that ship. Your mentors are really, really 327 00:16:44,710 --> 00:16:48,230 busy. They may not be able to give all 328 00:16:48,240 --> 00:16:50,490 the time that they want to give to you. 329 00:16:50,500 --> 00:16:52,990 And you need to be the ones who are telling that you need to 330 00:16:53,000 --> 00:16:55,830 tell your mentor, like, what is it that you want from them? 331 00:16:55,900 --> 00:16:59,050 And ideally, if you could book the appointments, that would be 332 00:16:59,060 --> 00:17:02,040 great or, or you know, at least kind of start driving the ship 333 00:17:02,050 --> 00:17:05,280 in, in that way a little bit. I, I think it's really important 334 00:17:05,290 --> 00:17:09,260 for all of us to have a lot of different mentors and mentees. 335 00:17:09,270 --> 00:17:12,140 Like we are never going to be in a place where we know everything 336 00:17:12,150 --> 00:17:13,670 and we don't need to be mentored. 337 00:17:14,470 --> 00:17:17,800 This does not reality. I mean, maybe when you retire, 338 00:17:17,810 --> 00:17:21,359 but I mean, even then, I feel like some retirees would go on 339 00:17:21,369 --> 00:17:23,500 to have second careers and do all kinds of crazy things. 340 00:17:23,510 --> 00:17:25,640 So they probably also still need vendors. 341 00:17:25,650 --> 00:17:29,190 And I think it's really hard when you don't feel like you fit 342 00:17:29,250 --> 00:17:31,840 anywhere. I think with ITL especially, you 343 00:17:31,850 --> 00:17:33,960 get that. I actually got a message from 344 00:17:33,970 --> 00:17:39,220 1:00 today that was asking me how to sort of navigate the 345 00:17:39,230 --> 00:17:41,700 challenges that they're going to face through this process. 346 00:17:41,710 --> 00:17:46,340 And I, you know, I'm not really sure how to answer because I, I 347 00:17:46,350 --> 00:17:48,120 kind of needed one, I need more information. 348 00:17:48,130 --> 00:17:51,500 But two, on the face of things, it looks like they're navigating 349 00:17:51,550 --> 00:17:53,910 those challenges pretty well so far. 350 00:17:53,920 --> 00:17:56,920 And it's just kind of a good reminder too, that, you know, 351 00:17:56,930 --> 00:17:59,560 we, we might think that everyone has it all together and that 352 00:17:59,570 --> 00:18:02,510 everybody, everything is fine, but we have no idea what's going 353 00:18:02,520 --> 00:18:06,210 on with anybody underneath. And, you know, we, we just have 354 00:18:06,220 --> 00:18:09,620 to kind of remember who there are people that we're dealing 355 00:18:09,630 --> 00:18:12,360 with and that they have all these layers to them that we're 356 00:18:12,370 --> 00:18:15,450 just not Privy to. And I think when you're 357 00:18:15,460 --> 00:18:19,830 mentoring, having being able to feel on the outside of all these 358 00:18:19,840 --> 00:18:24,130 things kind of helps you to spot what's needed, like as a mentor. 359 00:18:24,180 --> 00:18:27,860 But unless that like the student is giving us or the mentee is 360 00:18:27,870 --> 00:18:31,150 giving us that a little bit like, you know, there's a push 361 00:18:31,160 --> 00:18:33,340 and pull here. And also like you can teach your 362 00:18:33,350 --> 00:18:36,830 mentee things for your mentor, things like, and most mentors, 363 00:18:36,840 --> 00:18:39,750 if they're actually really in it like they are, they want to 364 00:18:39,760 --> 00:18:41,950 learn from you too. They want to learn about you. 365 00:18:42,050 --> 00:18:43,190 Don't make them talk all the time. 366 00:18:43,200 --> 00:18:45,150 They want to hear from you. That's amazing. 367 00:18:45,320 --> 00:18:49,070 If I may ask you, can you tell us a little bit about the ITL 368 00:18:49,080 --> 00:18:50,650 conference that will happen in Toronto? 369 00:18:50,660 --> 00:18:53,150 Yeah, yeah. So for hurdles through horizons, 370 00:18:53,160 --> 00:18:58,290 the evolving ITL landscape. So this conference is the second 371 00:18:58,300 --> 00:19:02,050 of its kind in Canada. It is the first one that 372 00:19:02,060 --> 00:19:05,070 happening in Toronto. And it's pretty exciting because 373 00:19:05,080 --> 00:19:10,450 Toronto is an Ontario is really in my opinion at least the hub 374 00:19:10,500 --> 00:19:15,190 of where most of the IC L's in Canada happen to land, at least 375 00:19:15,200 --> 00:19:18,480 at the first instance because apparently our licensing process 376 00:19:18,490 --> 00:19:21,930 is easier. But also it just generally like 377 00:19:22,000 --> 00:19:25,500 folks come to Ontario and and there's a lot of ITIL here and 378 00:19:25,510 --> 00:19:28,860 there's a lot of older ITL's here as well who kind of hide a 379 00:19:28,870 --> 00:19:31,100 little bit more in the shadows. You know, you don't necessarily 380 00:19:31,110 --> 00:19:33,780 know who they are unless they tell you that they are IRL. 381 00:19:33,790 --> 00:19:37,380 But the conference itself is, is kind of like our transformative 382 00:19:37,450 --> 00:19:42,000 approach to bringing together like the vast diversity that is 383 00:19:42,010 --> 00:19:44,660 the IL community, the international Chandler community 384 00:19:44,750 --> 00:19:49,260 in Canada. And you know, we have a full day 385 00:19:49,270 --> 00:19:53,080 of programming that's intended to speak to issues that are 386 00:19:53,130 --> 00:19:56,540 really important for everyone in the profession, but in 387 00:19:56,550 --> 00:19:59,220 particular hit ITL's a little bit differently. 388 00:19:59,230 --> 00:20:01,880 So, you know, what does diversity mean? 389 00:20:01,950 --> 00:20:05,900 You know, in context with the ITL community like we are all 390 00:20:05,910 --> 00:20:08,300 coming and again, like there's, you know. 391 00:20:08,400 --> 00:20:12,550 There are so many people from so many different countries with so 392 00:20:12,560 --> 00:20:15,600 many different cultural norms that they're bringing in trying 393 00:20:15,610 --> 00:20:19,370 to fit into the Canadian landscape and trying to 394 00:20:19,380 --> 00:20:22,960 integrate with their peers and bosses and clients. 395 00:20:22,970 --> 00:20:26,220 And it's very difficult. So I wanted to sort of tackle 396 00:20:26,230 --> 00:20:29,910 that kind of head on. And then we also have amazing 397 00:20:30,140 --> 00:20:32,780 panel on the rule of law that I'm very much looking forward to 398 00:20:32,790 --> 00:20:36,790 because again, you know, our, our, our world is fracturing. 399 00:20:36,860 --> 00:20:40,240 There's no other way to say it. And I also have really, I think 400 00:20:40,250 --> 00:20:43,490 unique insights into this because we are coming from 401 00:20:43,500 --> 00:20:45,920 different places. We are coming from different 402 00:20:45,930 --> 00:20:49,350 places with different political norms and very different 403 00:20:49,410 --> 00:20:53,480 possibly views of what it means to adhere to the rule of law. 404 00:20:53,490 --> 00:20:55,400 And so you want to have those conversations and also, you 405 00:20:55,410 --> 00:20:57,780 know, a mental health because again, these are things that I 406 00:20:57,790 --> 00:21:01,060 think do get talked about in law, at least more recently, but 407 00:21:01,110 --> 00:21:04,400 they are not ever. I've never seen them addressed 408 00:21:04,470 --> 00:21:06,920 in the ITL context. And then of course, we will have 409 00:21:06,930 --> 00:21:10,800 some other amazing programs on, you know, networking and AI and, 410 00:21:10,810 --> 00:21:12,760 you know, all your typical lawyer programs. 411 00:21:12,830 --> 00:21:16,810 But I think like those, there are 300 programs throughout the 412 00:21:16,820 --> 00:21:19,760 day are, are the real like cornerstone of, you know, what 413 00:21:19,770 --> 00:21:23,360 it means to find your place and to not only find your place, but 414 00:21:23,420 --> 00:21:27,260 build from it. And, you know, make a community 415 00:21:27,270 --> 00:21:31,140 that is integrated within the broader Canadian legal community 416 00:21:31,190 --> 00:21:34,060 where we're, we're no longer just, you know, people being 417 00:21:34,070 --> 00:21:36,340 pulled along on the sidelines, But we are the leaders. 418 00:21:36,410 --> 00:21:38,920 We are the people who are shaping the system, who are 419 00:21:38,990 --> 00:21:43,520 informing perspectives and policies because we have that 420 00:21:43,530 --> 00:21:46,180 experience. And not me necessarily in 421 00:21:46,190 --> 00:21:50,720 particular, but a lot of the ITL's absolutely do that. 422 00:21:51,090 --> 00:21:54,520 You know, the weird thing about being an ITL is like you, you 423 00:21:54,530 --> 00:21:57,480 come into Canada and you're told, well, you have to start at 424 00:21:57,490 --> 00:21:59,320 the bottom. Maybe you have to go become a 425 00:21:59,380 --> 00:22:01,320 law clerk. I mean, how many of us have been 426 00:22:01,330 --> 00:22:04,410 told they'll be a lock clerk? Not saying that locks don't do a 427 00:22:04,420 --> 00:22:05,600 great job. They do and they're really 428 00:22:05,610 --> 00:22:08,080 important. And so our paralegals, but 429 00:22:08,270 --> 00:22:11,280 that's not the right approach to tell the internationally trained 430 00:22:11,290 --> 00:22:14,460 lawyers coming in that they should go and be a paralegal or 431 00:22:14,470 --> 00:22:17,960 a loser unless it's unless it's actually what they want, but 432 00:22:18,050 --> 00:22:20,520 usually it's not. So, you know, I think it's 433 00:22:20,530 --> 00:22:24,510 really important to highlight the bias, highlight the the 434 00:22:24,520 --> 00:22:29,770 disparities and try and find a way to rise above both 435 00:22:29,780 --> 00:22:34,550 personally and professionally. Choose since you had this 436 00:22:34,560 --> 00:22:38,050 opportunity to navigate the internationally trained process 437 00:22:38,060 --> 00:22:41,710 for for a while now and have been following and helping so 438 00:22:41,720 --> 00:22:44,690 many people along this journey, I wanted to ask you what are 439 00:22:44,700 --> 00:22:47,670 some of the things that you're seeing progress on? 440 00:22:47,740 --> 00:22:50,990 What are a few of the things that maybe you weren't concerns 441 00:22:51,100 --> 00:22:54,290 when you did the process, but now you know people will bring 442 00:22:54,300 --> 00:22:55,770 up? Are there a couple of points 443 00:22:55,780 --> 00:22:58,150 that you notice, you know, repeating themselves or? 444 00:22:58,240 --> 00:23:02,930 I think the worst thing is, is that people still feel like they 445 00:23:02,940 --> 00:23:06,360 are being told that they're sucking class to Canadian 446 00:23:06,370 --> 00:23:08,310 students. And I think that's really sad. 447 00:23:08,680 --> 00:23:13,610 And it's also just so, so demoralizing when someone says 448 00:23:13,620 --> 00:23:16,000 that to you. And, and the fact that I'm 449 00:23:16,010 --> 00:23:17,940 trying to think how many years has since, I don't even want to 450 00:23:17,950 --> 00:23:20,100 say how many years it's been since I started in truth 451 00:23:20,110 --> 00:23:22,660 initially. But the fact that it's been so 452 00:23:22,670 --> 00:23:28,090 long that that message has been perpetuated is, is something 453 00:23:28,100 --> 00:23:31,310 that I think, you know, the law societies need to address and 454 00:23:31,320 --> 00:23:33,700 they don't. And I think, you know, last 455 00:23:33,710 --> 00:23:36,180 year's Cochrans, the Law Society, several lost societies 456 00:23:36,190 --> 00:23:38,460 showed up and they talked about all kinds of things and they 457 00:23:38,470 --> 00:23:42,640 were all, oh, yeah, we really are so supportive and we want to 458 00:23:42,650 --> 00:23:44,700 make sure everybody succeeds and all this. 459 00:23:44,750 --> 00:23:48,060 I don't know that we're actually seeing that development on the 460 00:23:48,070 --> 00:23:50,020 ground. I think there is some 461 00:23:50,030 --> 00:23:53,480 interesting discussions happening about licensing. 462 00:23:53,530 --> 00:23:55,880 I mean, I don't know what's going to come. 463 00:23:55,890 --> 00:24:00,210 I don't want to put my own opinions on that right now, but 464 00:24:00,280 --> 00:24:02,420 you know, I, I think it's important to have those talks, 465 00:24:02,430 --> 00:24:05,910 but those talks really need to include more of the ITL voices. 466 00:24:05,920 --> 00:24:09,630 And we're not really seeing that they're not, we're not seeing as 467 00:24:09,640 --> 00:24:12,630 separate stakeholders. And I think that's a problem 468 00:24:12,680 --> 00:24:17,130 because and, and like, I think it's only the OA apparently has 469 00:24:17,140 --> 00:24:22,930 some sort of ITIL consultancy thing happening and the VC BA, 470 00:24:23,100 --> 00:24:27,900 well, what DABCO BA version, whatever they called, whatever 471 00:24:27,910 --> 00:24:30,520 they're called out there, they have an ITS section, but they 472 00:24:30,530 --> 00:24:33,030 are the only province with an ITL section. 473 00:24:34,100 --> 00:24:37,210 That's part of the CBA. And while I am no longer a 474 00:24:37,220 --> 00:24:42,770 member of the Oba or the CBA, I, I do recognize that they have 475 00:24:42,840 --> 00:24:45,370 quite a lot of influence and sway. 476 00:24:45,380 --> 00:24:49,250 And I think some of these organizations really need to get 477 00:24:49,260 --> 00:24:53,490 on board and provide that kind of recognition to the ITL 478 00:24:53,500 --> 00:24:58,110 community in order to help the law societies and other sort of 479 00:24:58,120 --> 00:25:02,430 leadership type enterprises move the dial a little bit forward. 480 00:25:02,580 --> 00:25:05,610 Because it can't all just be like grassroots wait, like it 481 00:25:05,620 --> 00:25:08,670 can't all just be, well, there's now so many of us now what do we 482 00:25:08,680 --> 00:25:09,720 do with them? I don't know. 483 00:25:09,780 --> 00:25:11,850 Does that answer your? Question No, absolutely, 484 00:25:11,860 --> 00:25:14,190 absolutely did. Oh, thank you so much. 485 00:25:14,280 --> 00:25:15,960 Thank you for for sharing your thoughts. 486 00:25:15,970 --> 00:25:19,410 I wanted to tap in a little bit in your, in your practice before 487 00:25:19,480 --> 00:25:22,610 we run out of time here. And I know that you host some 488 00:25:22,620 --> 00:25:25,310 seniors ask me anything sessions. 489 00:25:25,360 --> 00:25:26,860 So why don't you ask you about that? 490 00:25:26,870 --> 00:25:29,950 You know, what are some of the, the most common worries that you 491 00:25:29,960 --> 00:25:32,770 hear from older adults? What what they bring usually? 492 00:25:32,820 --> 00:25:35,210 What lawyers in general should keep in mind when they are 493 00:25:35,220 --> 00:25:37,390 serving this group? Oh, I think I'll start with that 494 00:25:37,400 --> 00:25:39,290 last bit. I think lawyers need to keep in 495 00:25:39,300 --> 00:25:44,450 mind that these are still real full human beings with autonomy 496 00:25:44,460 --> 00:25:46,000 for the most part. They have. 497 00:25:46,010 --> 00:25:48,870 They know what they want. Like nobody knows what they want 498 00:25:48,880 --> 00:25:51,020 as much as an older person knows what they want. 499 00:25:51,030 --> 00:25:53,830 No one can handle themselves as much as an older person. 500 00:25:53,840 --> 00:25:58,360 And yet we assume that they are not capable most of the time or 501 00:25:58,370 --> 00:26:00,760 that we, we just assume that they're saying, Oh, well, that's 502 00:26:00,770 --> 00:26:03,960 just the thing that that old man over there is saying, you know, 503 00:26:03,970 --> 00:26:06,920 like the, the tropes about the old man yelling at the kids off 504 00:26:06,930 --> 00:26:09,370 of salon. We, you know, we have to give 505 00:26:09,380 --> 00:26:13,600 them a little bit more time. We need to understand that, that 506 00:26:13,610 --> 00:26:17,740 when we dismiss them like it's, it's like a wholesale dismissal. 507 00:26:17,930 --> 00:26:21,280 I think, you know, in terms of their worries, a lot of older 508 00:26:21,290 --> 00:26:24,500 adults are, they aren't sure what comes next. 509 00:26:24,510 --> 00:26:27,700 They feel like they, they, I think they're most concerned. 510 00:26:27,710 --> 00:26:32,240 What's been raised to me is that when they go see lawyers, they 511 00:26:32,250 --> 00:26:34,460 are never, they don't get listened to. 512 00:26:34,930 --> 00:26:38,580 And often the lawyers will just, they'll say what they want and 513 00:26:38,590 --> 00:26:40,040 lawyers won't even ask them questions. 514 00:26:40,050 --> 00:26:43,760 They'll just provide them with a document and expect that they'll 515 00:26:43,810 --> 00:26:47,740 just sign it or if they're with their, you know, loved one, like 516 00:26:47,750 --> 00:26:50,480 a say a child of theirs or something, that they're 517 00:26:50,490 --> 00:26:52,420 constantly the lawyers constantly going to defer to 518 00:26:52,430 --> 00:26:54,300 this person rather than talking to them. 519 00:26:54,350 --> 00:26:57,580 And I think it's kind of worth thinking about and sort of like 520 00:26:57,650 --> 00:26:59,820 when we are dealing with the translator, right? 521 00:26:59,830 --> 00:27:03,280 Like the translator is there, but they're not the client. 522 00:27:03,290 --> 00:27:05,500 The client is the client. So you need to be talking to the 523 00:27:05,510 --> 00:27:07,970 clients and not the translator. And the translator is just like 524 00:27:07,980 --> 00:27:10,790 the voice box, same thing their family members, just the voice 525 00:27:10,800 --> 00:27:13,270 box. But that older adults is the one 526 00:27:13,280 --> 00:27:15,020 that you need to focus on and engage with. 527 00:27:15,090 --> 00:27:19,280 No prioritizing risk facts for that person, no matter what 528 00:27:19,290 --> 00:27:23,220 their capabilities are, because their dignity doesn't decrease 529 00:27:23,230 --> 00:27:24,820 just because their capacity does. 530 00:27:25,210 --> 00:27:29,710 Using plain language and listening, active listening key. 531 00:27:29,800 --> 00:27:35,060 I think, you know, one thing is that seniors often gets they 532 00:27:35,070 --> 00:27:38,790 become outsiders as they age, but like we need to make sure 533 00:27:38,800 --> 00:27:43,230 that our systems and that the way we practice that we design 534 00:27:43,240 --> 00:27:46,180 them with, you know, their needs in mind as well. 535 00:27:46,270 --> 00:27:48,820 And there is a misconception that seniors are not 536 00:27:48,870 --> 00:27:51,660 technologically forward. And I think there are some who 537 00:27:51,670 --> 00:27:54,940 are who certainly struggle. But I do, although just want to 538 00:27:54,950 --> 00:27:57,860 point out that I have a load of clients who are very, very good 539 00:27:57,870 --> 00:28:00,700 with technology and sometimes it's my younger ones who just 540 00:28:00,750 --> 00:28:03,220 are not good. I met maneuvering. 541 00:28:03,370 --> 00:28:06,340 I wanted to ask you, you know, you're humbling so many 542 00:28:06,350 --> 00:28:09,860 responsibilities, from family responsibilities to your 543 00:28:09,870 --> 00:28:14,480 practice, your volunteer work, and you also like really spoke 544 00:28:14,490 --> 00:28:17,630 as you know, being grounded, knowing who you are and the kind 545 00:28:17,640 --> 00:28:21,280 of lawyer you are and, and 1st we want to be. 546 00:28:21,340 --> 00:28:23,930 I want to ask you, you know, what kind of advice would you 547 00:28:23,940 --> 00:28:27,710 give to younger lawyers who are trying to find them both their 548 00:28:27,720 --> 00:28:30,730 space and the profession, but also that maybe skins have foam 549 00:28:30,740 --> 00:28:32,570 is seen it. I don't know. 550 00:28:32,580 --> 00:28:34,920 It took me a really long time. It took me like 40 years to get 551 00:28:35,540 --> 00:28:38,750 you. So it's, so it's definitely a 552 00:28:38,760 --> 00:28:42,070 work in progress and it's it's still ongoing. 553 00:28:42,080 --> 00:28:47,680 I would say therapy helps, you know, all of the things like for 554 00:28:47,690 --> 00:28:49,460 my husband, especially kids really helped. 555 00:28:49,470 --> 00:28:52,100 For me, it was more like, now I'm a mom, what do I do with 556 00:28:52,110 --> 00:28:53,000 that? No longer. 557 00:28:53,090 --> 00:28:58,270 But I, I think like therapy helps, exercise helps spending 558 00:28:58,280 --> 00:29:01,510 time in nature if you can. Like we used to go before she 559 00:29:01,520 --> 00:29:03,320 was blown. She's not quite ready for now, 560 00:29:03,330 --> 00:29:07,460 but we used to go for long walks with our old one through various 561 00:29:07,470 --> 00:29:11,520 like hiking areas that we have a jar, a little glitter jar that 562 00:29:11,530 --> 00:29:14,700 is filled with different hiking spots all over Ontario. 563 00:29:14,770 --> 00:29:18,560 And we would pull one out every weekend and, and go for like a 564 00:29:19,050 --> 00:29:22,510 long hike. Just exploring those types of 565 00:29:22,520 --> 00:29:24,900 things really, really help. No, now things like playing with 566 00:29:24,910 --> 00:29:27,870 the kids helps. Just seeing them, seeing them 567 00:29:27,940 --> 00:29:30,240 engaged to with their grandparents is really special. 568 00:29:30,350 --> 00:29:34,590 And I'm really thrilled that for my kids, at least they had 569 00:29:34,600 --> 00:29:38,050 access to, they have access to all four grandparents. 570 00:29:38,060 --> 00:29:41,370 Listen for me, I had my two who were here kind of maybe sharing 571 00:29:41,430 --> 00:29:46,350 and my grandmother in the Philippines, But I, I never met 572 00:29:46,360 --> 00:29:48,450 my grandfather who was a lawyer as well. 573 00:29:48,460 --> 00:29:51,190 And I think my mom never told me that until I became a lawyer 574 00:29:51,200 --> 00:29:53,270 myself. And it always just kind of stuck 575 00:29:53,280 --> 00:29:55,950 with me after that. And he was the kind of lawyer 576 00:29:55,960 --> 00:29:59,430 who was also practicing in A to J practice. 577 00:29:59,480 --> 00:30:03,430 And it's just kind of like full circle, you know, and kind of 578 00:30:03,440 --> 00:30:06,110 reminding yourself of who you are within your family and 579 00:30:06,120 --> 00:30:09,630 within you yourself is helpful. Great advice. 580 00:30:09,720 --> 00:30:12,290 It was great to learn a little bit more about your story as 581 00:30:12,300 --> 00:30:14,530 well. So I wanted to say that I really 582 00:30:14,540 --> 00:30:16,620 appreciate you Minion podcast here today. 583 00:30:16,690 --> 00:30:19,760 Thank you for for making the time to be here and to Share 584 00:30:19,770 --> 00:30:21,730 your story. Thank you so much for having me, 585 00:30:21,740 --> 00:30:23,840 Claudia. I hope it's a good one. 586 00:30:24,070 --> 00:30:26,480 Absolutely, absolutely. It's a good one for sure. 587 00:30:26,490 --> 00:30:28,480 And thank you all for tuning in and listening to today's 588 00:30:28,490 --> 00:30:29,340 episode.