1 00:00:12,880 --> 00:00:14,880 Welcome to Studying Law Around the World. 2 00:00:15,020 --> 00:00:17,870 I'm Claudio Claus. In each episode, I talk with 3 00:00:17,880 --> 00:00:20,850 lawyers, law students, and professors from different parts 4 00:00:20,860 --> 00:00:24,730 of the world to talk about legal education, careers, and what the 5 00:00:24,740 --> 00:00:26,410 profession looks like in real life. 6 00:00:26,420 --> 00:00:29,470 We talk about the hard parts, the surprises, and the decisions 7 00:00:29,480 --> 00:00:32,270 that shaped their paths. Whether you're planning to study 8 00:00:32,280 --> 00:00:35,520 abroad, thinking about working in another legal system, or just 9 00:00:35,530 --> 00:00:39,650 curious about how law works around the world, this podcast 10 00:00:39,660 --> 00:00:44,120 is for you. This evening I have the 11 00:00:44,130 --> 00:00:48,560 opportunity to host John Paul Rodriguez and Justin Rochester. 12 00:00:48,630 --> 00:00:51,720 Thank you both so much for taking the time to being here in 13 00:00:51,730 --> 00:00:54,620 the podcast. I just wanted to do a quick 14 00:00:54,630 --> 00:00:57,880 introduction here and then I'll I'll ask you to speak a little 15 00:00:57,890 --> 00:01:01,540 more about yourselves respectively before JP. 16 00:01:01,670 --> 00:01:05,140 He's an award-winning legal instructor and paralegal program 17 00:01:05,150 --> 00:01:10,480 coordinator at Trios College, founded the Paralegal Town Hall 18 00:01:10,550 --> 00:01:14,660 Forum connecting paralegals, lawyers, taters and students to 19 00:01:14,670 --> 00:01:17,140 discuss the present and future of the profession. 20 00:01:17,150 --> 00:01:21,720 He tutors betterly paralegals students for the P1 licensing 21 00:01:21,730 --> 00:01:25,580 exam and has featured over 500 legal professionals on his 22 00:01:25,780 --> 00:01:29,870 YouTube Justice in Pieces. Beyond legal communication, AP 23 00:01:29,880 --> 00:01:34,270 is a lawyer who primarily works as a telephone duty counsel on 24 00:01:34,280 --> 00:01:36,150 criminal and immigration matters. 25 00:01:36,160 --> 00:01:38,130 So Claudia, thank you so much for having me. 26 00:01:38,140 --> 00:01:41,570 I'm really excited to be on the other side of the microphone 27 00:01:41,580 --> 00:01:43,850 answering questions. I know someone who's talked to 28 00:01:43,860 --> 00:01:45,880 so many legal professionals like yourself. 29 00:01:45,890 --> 00:01:47,650 I think you've been a guess as well on mine. 30 00:01:47,760 --> 00:01:50,690 And yeah, I'm, I'm involved. It's actually Tribes College but 31 00:01:50,760 --> 00:01:54,070 I've been there for 10 plus years and I've been giving 32 00:01:54,080 --> 00:01:57,890 everything I have focused on the paralegal profession and helping 33 00:01:57,900 --> 00:02:01,780 paralegals thrive and cultivating those knowledge of 34 00:02:01,790 --> 00:02:04,600 the students so they can succeed in the field. 35 00:02:04,940 --> 00:02:07,530 It was such a pleasure to being Justice and Pieces and I 36 00:02:07,540 --> 00:02:09,410 appreciate you being here with us today. 37 00:02:09,460 --> 00:02:12,210 I also want to introduce Adjusting Rochester, who is a 38 00:02:12,220 --> 00:02:15,230 licensed paralegal, a practicing criminal law in Ontario and 39 00:02:15,320 --> 00:02:18,870 pitching at multiple colleges. With over 9 years of experience 40 00:02:18,880 --> 00:02:22,450 and more than 7000 court appearances, Justin has trained 41 00:02:22,460 --> 00:02:25,970 lawyers and paralegals while advocating for clients every 42 00:02:25,980 --> 00:02:27,670 day. Thank you so much for being 43 00:02:27,680 --> 00:02:29,670 here, Justin. Thank you so much for having 44 00:02:29,680 --> 00:02:32,710 both of us, Claudio. We really appreciate everything 45 00:02:32,720 --> 00:02:35,470 you're doing for paying attention to these legal issues 46 00:02:35,480 --> 00:02:38,250 and, and discussions that help further understandings. 47 00:02:38,260 --> 00:02:41,590 And that's very important. And yeah, I'm myself, I've been 48 00:02:41,600 --> 00:02:44,770 practicing or providing legal services and criminal law for 49 00:02:44,780 --> 00:02:47,000 just 10 years now. It's been quite fulfilling. 50 00:02:47,010 --> 00:02:50,750 There's not a lot of paralegals in that realm that kind of do 51 00:02:50,760 --> 00:02:53,290 what I do. And so it's always great to see 52 00:02:53,300 --> 00:02:57,130 new paralegals and join the ranks of criminal practice, for 53 00:02:57,140 --> 00:02:59,150 lack of a better term. Yeah. 54 00:02:59,160 --> 00:03:00,730 And I teach them multiple colleges. 55 00:03:00,740 --> 00:03:04,330 And I cofounded the Paralegal Town Hall alongside my good 56 00:03:04,340 --> 00:03:06,290 friend John. Paul Rodriguez Amazing. 57 00:03:06,340 --> 00:03:09,070 So to start over interview tonight, I, I wanted to ask you 58 00:03:09,080 --> 00:03:11,670 a little more about the role that paralegals play. 59 00:03:11,760 --> 00:03:15,760 I've heard that Ontario has a very specific and unique setting 60 00:03:15,770 --> 00:03:19,130 where paralegals can do a little more than they could in other 61 00:03:19,140 --> 00:03:22,190 jurisdictions, be it in the US or even in other Canadian 62 00:03:22,200 --> 00:03:24,450 provinces. So can you tell me a little more 63 00:03:24,460 --> 00:03:28,070 about the role that paralegal splay and and specifically how 64 00:03:28,080 --> 00:03:30,270 this works here in Ontario? Yeah, for sure. 65 00:03:30,280 --> 00:03:34,090 So, you know, we really are like one of the only places in the 66 00:03:34,100 --> 00:03:39,210 world that has this secondary licensing and it's really a 67 00:03:39,220 --> 00:03:41,880 beautiful thing because access to justice is realized. 68 00:03:41,890 --> 00:03:46,880 We are trained quite, quite well and we have a strenuous academic 69 00:03:46,890 --> 00:03:48,680 journey in order to take to get licensed. 70 00:03:48,690 --> 00:03:51,980 And once we are, we become especially essentially sorry, 71 00:03:52,030 --> 00:03:53,600 specialists in our in our fields. 72 00:03:53,610 --> 00:03:56,520 And paralegals are declogging courtrooms. 73 00:03:56,530 --> 00:03:59,200 They are making sure individuals who would not normally have 74 00:03:59,210 --> 00:04:01,020 representation get representation. 75 00:04:01,090 --> 00:04:04,560 Because to be quite frank, the alternative to a paralegal is 76 00:04:04,570 --> 00:04:07,180 not a lawyer for most people. It's out of their price range. 77 00:04:07,190 --> 00:04:10,320 The alternative is self representation, which can be, 78 00:04:10,430 --> 00:04:12,900 you know, quite adverse for them and just as far as getting the 79 00:04:12,910 --> 00:04:16,070 best outcome possible or even worse, going to jail or criminal 80 00:04:16,079 --> 00:04:17,910 record. So far, leagues play a crucial 81 00:04:17,920 --> 00:04:21,060 role and we do things in civil and the tribunals, 82 00:04:21,070 --> 00:04:23,940 administrative law. There's a lot of places looking 83 00:04:23,950 --> 00:04:27,200 at Ontario, seeing that it works and and thankfully are starting 84 00:04:27,210 --> 00:04:30,580 to move their mind towards opening up their legal system to 85 00:04:30,590 --> 00:04:33,880 house paralegals and in the same way that Ontario does. 86 00:04:33,950 --> 00:04:37,460 Yeah, I would certainly add paralegals are independently 87 00:04:37,470 --> 00:04:40,320 regulated by the Lost City. So they're, they're just like 88 00:04:40,330 --> 00:04:42,990 lawyers and that they have to go through a regulation process. 89 00:04:43,000 --> 00:04:46,690 They gotta finish education, they gotta pass licensing exams, 90 00:04:46,750 --> 00:04:49,520 they gotta be of good character, they gotta do their CPD 91 00:04:49,530 --> 00:04:52,140 requirements. And so when you look at it 92 00:04:52,150 --> 00:04:55,000 within their scope, as Justin alluded to, U.S. dollar limit in 93 00:04:55,010 --> 00:04:58,700 small claims court, certain summary conviction offences or 94 00:04:58,710 --> 00:05:00,840 should I bring matters that proceed summarily within 95 00:05:00,850 --> 00:05:03,560 criminal law? There are hundreds if not close 96 00:05:03,570 --> 00:05:07,560 to 1000 different tribunals aware and as well as traffic 97 00:05:07,570 --> 00:05:09,120 tickets and other provincial offences. 98 00:05:09,570 --> 00:05:13,800 You can have a paralegal representing the plaintiff in 99 00:05:13,810 --> 00:05:16,130 small claims court and you can have a lawyer representing the 100 00:05:16,140 --> 00:05:18,080 defendant. Or you can have a paralegal 101 00:05:18,090 --> 00:05:20,980 representing an implicated the human rights tribunal and you 102 00:05:20,990 --> 00:05:24,130 can have a lawyer representing the respondents right and and 103 00:05:24,140 --> 00:05:27,810 they work seamlessly side by side or on opposite sides. 104 00:05:27,820 --> 00:05:30,410 Again, we're all legal professionals, and together the 105 00:05:30,420 --> 00:05:34,970 two create a complete legal systems or legal services 106 00:05:35,030 --> 00:05:38,800 ecosystem that thrives in providing access to justice. 107 00:05:38,810 --> 00:05:41,120 And thank you so much for explaining a little more about 108 00:05:41,190 --> 00:05:44,640 how all the paralegals really play it very interesting role 109 00:05:44,650 --> 00:05:47,640 and, and how the regulation plays a role in all of that. 110 00:05:47,720 --> 00:05:50,990 So I I'd love to ask you if you could walk us through a little 111 00:05:51,000 --> 00:05:55,160 bit about the types of matters that you regularly handle and 112 00:05:55,170 --> 00:05:59,090 explain where maybe a paralegal would even be a best choice for 113 00:05:59,100 --> 00:06:00,010 clients. Yeah. 114 00:06:00,020 --> 00:06:03,130 So I'll jump in here as of actually as a paralegal, I'm so 115 00:06:03,140 --> 00:06:06,550 in the criminal realm, I do a lot of would say assault cases, 116 00:06:06,640 --> 00:06:09,710 mischief F cases, a lot of domestics. 117 00:06:10,060 --> 00:06:12,070 Those tend to be the the lion share. 118 00:06:12,140 --> 00:06:15,830 And in this system, the way in which we delineate as far as 119 00:06:15,840 --> 00:06:20,820 what paralegals can do is essentially any, any, any crime 120 00:06:20,830 --> 00:06:24,170 that has a penalty up to two years in prison for two years 121 00:06:24,180 --> 00:06:27,190 less a day, I should say, in jail, I should say over $5000 in 122 00:06:27,200 --> 00:06:29,350 fines ends up being designated summary. 123 00:06:29,390 --> 00:06:31,050 And then the summary designation, that's where 124 00:06:31,060 --> 00:06:34,310 paralegals can appear. Anything over 2 years of a jail 125 00:06:34,320 --> 00:06:37,350 time is considered to be indictable in nature and would 126 00:06:37,360 --> 00:06:40,550 require a lawyer. And so there are a large swath 127 00:06:40,560 --> 00:06:44,590 of what we call hybrid offences. And that essentially is where 128 00:06:44,600 --> 00:06:48,110 the Crown has the prerogative to elect either in summary or 129 00:06:48,120 --> 00:06:51,510 indictable, which again, and there's many factors that go 130 00:06:51,520 --> 00:06:55,210 into that decision. When Bill C-75 was passed back 131 00:06:55,220 --> 00:06:58,470 to 2019, it really expanded the scope of paralegals because it 132 00:06:58,480 --> 00:07:03,410 redesignated a large swath of offences to hybrid by making the 133 00:07:03,420 --> 00:07:07,290 jail term, you know, qualifier, 2 years less a day. 134 00:07:07,360 --> 00:07:12,330 And so it's been an absolute pleasure being able to serve my 135 00:07:12,340 --> 00:07:15,130 society and my community and providing legal services to 136 00:07:15,140 --> 00:07:17,840 individuals would not normally have access to justice in this 137 00:07:17,850 --> 00:07:19,900 way. And that I truly believe that 138 00:07:19,910 --> 00:07:24,340 the paralegal, well educated and well trained into regulated 139 00:07:24,350 --> 00:07:28,440 paralegal is the true answer to the access to justice question. 140 00:07:28,510 --> 00:07:32,060 Yeah, Just to add, actually just from earlier today, I was 141 00:07:32,170 --> 00:07:36,240 picking up a plaque from our trophy place. 142 00:07:36,250 --> 00:07:39,120 We have a golden gavel award that we give out to paralegal 143 00:07:39,130 --> 00:07:40,590 students. And the person just said, oh, 144 00:07:40,600 --> 00:07:42,340 you're a lawyer. You know, maybe you can help me 145 00:07:42,350 --> 00:07:43,860 with this. You know, I mean, I feel like 146 00:07:43,870 --> 00:07:46,300 all these conversations start randomly like this one of the 147 00:07:46,310 --> 00:07:51,020 people that was in the store there and then they were like, 148 00:07:51,030 --> 00:07:52,580 oh, we're gonna go to small claims court. 149 00:07:52,590 --> 00:07:55,030 And maybe it's really too expensive to get a lawyer. 150 00:07:55,040 --> 00:07:57,940 That's why I was sending my own demand letters earlier. 151 00:07:58,050 --> 00:08:00,120 I said, well, you know what, actually, I have a great 152 00:08:00,130 --> 00:08:02,230 referral for you. It's it's a paralegal, somebody 153 00:08:02,240 --> 00:08:05,700 who can provide you with, you know, strong advocacy, strong 154 00:08:05,710 --> 00:08:08,820 representation, but at a fraction of what it would cost 155 00:08:09,030 --> 00:08:12,080 for one of my lawyer colleagues to do small claims. 156 00:08:12,090 --> 00:08:15,260 Or more often, they may pay more money in legal fees than what 157 00:08:15,270 --> 00:08:16,580 they're looking to recover. Right. 158 00:08:16,590 --> 00:08:19,330 And as Justin alluded before, right, is that you got to find 159 00:08:19,340 --> 00:08:21,440 that balance because the alternative is self 160 00:08:21,450 --> 00:08:24,320 representation. And so I was always taught this 161 00:08:24,330 --> 00:08:28,180 quote that whoever represents themselves has a fool for a 162 00:08:28,190 --> 00:08:30,650 client. And certainly you don't want to 163 00:08:30,660 --> 00:08:34,340 go into those battles unarmed. And you can of a paralegal who's 164 00:08:34,350 --> 00:08:37,640 affordable that is well versed and especially in those areas 165 00:08:37,789 --> 00:08:40,760 where you don't see too many lawyers that they are going to 166 00:08:40,770 --> 00:08:42,580 be very successful for their clients. 167 00:08:42,690 --> 00:08:46,520 Amazing, yes, I actually had the opportunity to summer in the 168 00:08:46,530 --> 00:08:50,340 government and being in quite a few hearings for the Landlord 169 00:08:50,350 --> 00:08:54,080 Tenant Board, I got you to cross paths with quite a bit of, of 170 00:08:54,090 --> 00:08:56,520 paralegals there and, and learn a little bit more about their 171 00:08:56,530 --> 00:08:58,320 role. And honestly, most of the cases 172 00:08:58,330 --> 00:09:02,000 that I was at did the other side was, was very well represented 173 00:09:02,010 --> 00:09:04,760 by a paralegal and I was quite, quite intrigued. 174 00:09:04,770 --> 00:09:08,460 So I'm glad you learned a little more about this branch of the 175 00:09:08,470 --> 00:09:11,700 profession with you 2 today. And if I may ask you kind of 176 00:09:11,710 --> 00:09:13,880 plug it into that. Are there a few, you know, 177 00:09:13,890 --> 00:09:17,420 common misconceptions about paralegals that you know, 178 00:09:17,430 --> 00:09:20,700 questions that you get asked and and how do you address then in 179 00:09:20,710 --> 00:09:23,860 your work? So let me jump in here because 180 00:09:23,870 --> 00:09:27,320 I, I love this question and I have this term, I call it the 181 00:09:27,510 --> 00:09:30,360 Meghan Markle effect. Actually, I was just watching on 182 00:09:30,370 --> 00:09:36,410 my, my Instagram reels when Mike Ross first meets her and he's 183 00:09:36,420 --> 00:09:38,940 like, well, everyone just thinks of me as just a paralegal. 184 00:09:39,010 --> 00:09:41,780 And so a lot of people have this misconception because when they 185 00:09:41,790 --> 00:09:45,340 hear the word paralegal, they're thinking about Meghan Markle. 186 00:09:45,350 --> 00:09:48,810 They're as Rachel Zane on suits or other roles where, you know, 187 00:09:48,820 --> 00:09:52,040 again, as Justin said before, we're the only one that has 188 00:09:52,050 --> 00:09:54,860 fully licensed representation where paralegals, you know, 189 00:09:54,870 --> 00:09:56,010 British Columbia is almost there. 190 00:09:56,020 --> 00:09:59,260 We were talking to some US paralegals recently who are 191 00:09:59,270 --> 00:10:02,080 saying they're they're looking at Arizona and Utah is 192 00:10:02,090 --> 00:10:06,540 potentially places right now. Ontario has fully licensed 193 00:10:06,550 --> 00:10:08,700 paralegals. SO1 misconception is that 194 00:10:08,710 --> 00:10:11,910 paralegals are just legal assistance or law clerks and 195 00:10:11,920 --> 00:10:15,960 that they just do clerical work or support work or assist 196 00:10:15,970 --> 00:10:19,640 lawyers at law firms. Again, in Ontario, it's not the 197 00:10:19,650 --> 00:10:21,600 case at all. They're fully licensed, as I 198 00:10:21,610 --> 00:10:23,180 said before, they're fully regulated. 199 00:10:23,190 --> 00:10:26,980 They have education, they have experience and they work 200 00:10:26,990 --> 00:10:29,460 independently. So paralegals can open up their 201 00:10:29,470 --> 00:10:31,760 own firms. Paralegals can partner with each 202 00:10:31,770 --> 00:10:33,250 other, partner, partner with lawyers even. 203 00:10:33,260 --> 00:10:37,180 There's a lot of multidiscipline practices like that where you 204 00:10:37,190 --> 00:10:39,560 see lawyers working side by side with paralegals. 205 00:10:39,650 --> 00:10:42,300 And as you were asking before, they could take a matter from 206 00:10:42,310 --> 00:10:46,760 start to finish from the arrest in some cases or from the 207 00:10:46,770 --> 00:10:49,880 statement of claim being filed or from the traffic ticket, 208 00:10:50,090 --> 00:10:51,340 right? And they can go all the way 209 00:10:51,350 --> 00:10:53,440 through to the end. And so I think that 210 00:10:53,450 --> 00:10:56,780 misconception that paralegals are just a paralegal, as Justin 211 00:10:56,890 --> 00:11:00,440 had a nice article about, is there's a lot more than simply 212 00:11:00,450 --> 00:11:04,380 being assistance or support. So they can do everything a 213 00:11:04,390 --> 00:11:07,760 lawyer can do within their scope and do it very effectively. 214 00:11:07,960 --> 00:11:10,780 And I'll just add that that the idea that there's a lowering of 215 00:11:10,790 --> 00:11:13,680 a standard as far as legal representation is somewhat 216 00:11:13,690 --> 00:11:16,390 insulting to the individuals that work very hard to ensure 217 00:11:16,400 --> 00:11:19,990 that they are capable to do the level of justice that we are 218 00:11:20,000 --> 00:11:22,100 entrusted to do. I, I liken it a lot to the 219 00:11:22,110 --> 00:11:24,240 doctor nurse debate. And that's probably not much of 220 00:11:24,250 --> 00:11:26,640 A debate, but because nurses are actually well regarded and well 221 00:11:26,710 --> 00:11:28,650 perspective, but there are things that nurses do that 222 00:11:28,660 --> 00:11:31,350 doctors themselves are not essentially trained on or, or 223 00:11:31,360 --> 00:11:34,950 don't do so often that they are as good as, for instance, a 224 00:11:34,960 --> 00:11:37,010 nurse. A nurse practitioners can do a 225 00:11:37,020 --> 00:11:40,480 lot of things, including diagnosis for and, and, you 226 00:11:40,490 --> 00:11:43,050 know, surface level triage and sort of speak. 227 00:11:43,060 --> 00:11:46,530 So paralegals in my mind, tend, you know, the debate I'm hearing 228 00:11:46,540 --> 00:11:49,800 in BC as well is this idea that lawyers are pushing back saying, 229 00:11:49,810 --> 00:11:52,690 you know, well, licensing paralegals is not truly a 230 00:11:52,740 --> 00:11:55,390 granting access to justice is just lowering the standard of 231 00:11:55,400 --> 00:11:58,170 legal representation. And as I said before, it's it's, 232 00:11:58,180 --> 00:12:01,750 it's actually quite insulting to suggest that because like 233 00:12:01,760 --> 00:12:04,510 anything else, we're all people learning our various areas. 234 00:12:04,520 --> 00:12:07,490 And once you become an expert or first in your area, it doesn't 235 00:12:07,600 --> 00:12:09,990 to me matter whether you're a lawyer or paralegal. 236 00:12:10,070 --> 00:12:12,160 For instance, in provincial offences court, a landlord 237 00:12:12,170 --> 00:12:14,420 tenant board, There's lawyers who asked are you mean criminal? 238 00:12:14,430 --> 00:12:17,120 There's new new lawyers who asked me questions for about 239 00:12:17,130 --> 00:12:18,740 procedure or. Practices of the Court. 240 00:12:18,830 --> 00:12:21,620 That doesn't make me see them any less as far as their ability 241 00:12:21,630 --> 00:12:24,200 to, to advocate for the client. It's just, I've been doing it 242 00:12:24,210 --> 00:12:25,750 for 10 years. So I just tend to have more 243 00:12:25,760 --> 00:12:26,980 knowledge in that, in that field. 244 00:12:26,990 --> 00:12:29,170 And so that's another misconception that I just wanted 245 00:12:29,180 --> 00:12:31,290 to get out of the way that essentially just because you 246 00:12:31,300 --> 00:12:33,810 allow paralegals or in America, I think it's more of a second 247 00:12:33,820 --> 00:12:36,720 tier licensee idea, junior lawyer, I think they're trying 248 00:12:36,730 --> 00:12:39,040 to call it that you're lowering some sort of bar. 249 00:12:39,050 --> 00:12:41,370 And I, I just don't agree with that and I push back against 250 00:12:41,380 --> 00:12:43,190 that a lot. Thank you so much for bringing 251 00:12:43,200 --> 00:12:45,480 that up. I, I really like the, the idea 252 00:12:45,490 --> 00:12:49,140 of bringing the, the light to the subject and really sharing 253 00:12:49,150 --> 00:12:51,180 it out in the profession, the possibilities. 254 00:12:51,190 --> 00:12:54,390 And, and I think that it's even an interesting point where, you 255 00:12:54,400 --> 00:12:57,350 know, it's a different kind of education, It's a different 256 00:12:57,440 --> 00:13:00,610 really path to, to pursue. But I wanted to ask you a little 257 00:13:00,620 --> 00:13:04,310 bit JP and, and just think what made you choose, you know, to, 258 00:13:04,320 --> 00:13:08,910 to in JP's case to work and stay committed to paralegals and then 259 00:13:08,980 --> 00:13:12,130 justing in this work that you've done for quite a few years now? 260 00:13:12,620 --> 00:13:15,710 For me, I mean, again, I, I've had the benefit obviously went 261 00:13:15,720 --> 00:13:18,810 to law school and immediately after law school, I was teaching 262 00:13:18,820 --> 00:13:22,270 law in, in China actually. So I got the experience of 263 00:13:22,320 --> 00:13:25,230 teaching in a law school and then some of my students went on 264 00:13:25,240 --> 00:13:27,770 to be, I think, judges and lawyers there. 265 00:13:27,860 --> 00:13:30,150 And so I had this experience and I wanted to come back. 266 00:13:30,160 --> 00:13:32,810 And as you know, you either have to be a practitioner for with 267 00:13:32,820 --> 00:13:36,230 many years, you got to have a PhD mean the qualifications to, 268 00:13:36,240 --> 00:13:39,760 to work in law school or university here or a lot more 269 00:13:39,770 --> 00:13:41,620 than I was prepared to, especially after taking a few 270 00:13:41,630 --> 00:13:44,510 years out after law school. And so there's an opportunity 271 00:13:44,520 --> 00:13:47,380 to, to to get involved in a paralegal college for me again, 272 00:13:47,390 --> 00:13:50,680 as, as Justin said, the education is, is very practical, 273 00:13:50,690 --> 00:13:52,400 right? And that that's very different 274 00:13:52,410 --> 00:13:54,900 from law school. I was reading an article on on 275 00:13:54,910 --> 00:13:57,690 LinkedIn, I think his name is Aaron Buyer, who's writing on 276 00:13:57,700 --> 00:13:59,580 me. Did you do you really learn to 277 00:13:59,590 --> 00:14:03,180 be a lawyer in law school or do you learn it from sort of hands 278 00:14:03,190 --> 00:14:06,360 on training, you know, in your summers and your articling? 279 00:14:06,430 --> 00:14:08,980 I mean, I teach contract law, for example, in paralegal 280 00:14:08,990 --> 00:14:10,700 college. And we actually look through, 281 00:14:10,740 --> 00:14:13,140 you know, the terms of a contract and you would interpret 282 00:14:13,150 --> 00:14:14,540 it. But, you know, when I was in law 283 00:14:14,550 --> 00:14:18,120 school, I mean, contract law was, you know, Sandale and all 284 00:14:18,130 --> 00:14:22,030 these cases, but I don't think we ever actually broke down a 285 00:14:22,040 --> 00:14:23,910 contract, right? We were very focused on the 286 00:14:23,920 --> 00:14:25,930 theoretical. And so that's why when I, when, 287 00:14:25,940 --> 00:14:28,390 when people are comparing the, well, I went to university, I 288 00:14:28,400 --> 00:14:32,130 went to law school, I wrote the Lsats, I wrote all these exams, 289 00:14:32,140 --> 00:14:34,820 highly qualified. And then as, as you're in front 290 00:14:34,830 --> 00:14:37,550 of played off that paralegals because they don't have all 291 00:14:37,560 --> 00:14:40,430 that, that they're suddenly inferior or less qualified. 292 00:14:40,520 --> 00:14:43,450 I mean, you learn on the job, you learn in the experience. 293 00:14:43,460 --> 00:14:45,960 And that's why there are paralegal students of mine who 294 00:14:45,970 --> 00:14:48,970 are internationally trained lawyers, for example, those 295 00:14:49,080 --> 00:14:52,690 paralegals have been practicing for almost 2 decades that are 296 00:14:52,800 --> 00:14:56,220 well versed and could run circles around any lawyer that 297 00:14:56,230 --> 00:14:59,210 comes into their domain, right? And so I think it's very unfair 298 00:14:59,280 --> 00:15:04,590 to characterize education as as simply the be all and end all, 299 00:15:04,660 --> 00:15:06,670 right. And, and I think when you look 300 00:15:06,680 --> 00:15:08,610 at that, why I wanted to get involved was there was an 301 00:15:08,620 --> 00:15:12,410 opportunity really to, to grow and, and, and cultivate to 302 00:15:12,420 --> 00:15:15,820 students who are fresh into the profession or about to enter the 303 00:15:15,830 --> 00:15:17,960 profession and sort of give all that I can. 304 00:15:17,970 --> 00:15:21,150 And, and it's again, when you look at as a lawyer, often I'm 305 00:15:21,160 --> 00:15:23,930 asked, well, you're a lawyer, why are you helping paralegals? 306 00:15:23,940 --> 00:15:25,270 Why do you care about paralegals? 307 00:15:25,280 --> 00:15:27,950 But I think both professions can work side by side. 308 00:15:27,960 --> 00:15:30,810 I mean, that's the goal, right, is that we need more lawyers, 309 00:15:30,960 --> 00:15:34,450 younger lawyers and newly licensed lawyers to know that 310 00:15:34,540 --> 00:15:37,770 paralegals are competent there. They are educated, they're 311 00:15:37,780 --> 00:15:41,530 knowledgeable, and they can do work with you, especially in 312 00:15:41,540 --> 00:15:43,970 situations where it may have been referred under the. 313 00:15:44,120 --> 00:15:47,330 And so for me, I think I take up that cause as a lawyer in the 314 00:15:47,340 --> 00:15:50,310 paralegal space, one of the, you know, the few perhaps really 315 00:15:50,320 --> 00:15:53,770 strongly advocating because we need more lawyers like myself to 316 00:15:53,780 --> 00:15:57,430 recognize what paralegals bring to the table because who often 317 00:15:57,440 --> 00:16:01,150 many of my colleagues are, are pushing and raising sort of 318 00:16:01,160 --> 00:16:04,270 unfounded concerns that though they're watering down the 319 00:16:04,280 --> 00:16:06,770 profession. So you got to have allies that 320 00:16:06,780 --> 00:16:09,560 stand side-by-side proudly with paralegals. 321 00:16:09,570 --> 00:16:12,670 And that's why I'm doing it. And that's why I think working 322 00:16:12,680 --> 00:16:15,290 with Justin as the paralegal town hall, actually having a 323 00:16:15,300 --> 00:16:18,590 lawyer and paralegal side by side, shows exactly what this 324 00:16:18,600 --> 00:16:21,250 profession is capable. Of yeah, what he said times 2 325 00:16:21,260 --> 00:16:23,630 for me but no seriously, I got into this. 326 00:16:23,700 --> 00:16:26,470 I always wanted to do something in the law since I was younger 327 00:16:26,660 --> 00:16:29,910 people, much like many lawyers, they're back story is everybody 328 00:16:29,990 --> 00:16:33,140 say you should become a lawyer because you love to argue or ask 329 00:16:33,150 --> 00:16:35,580 them any questions. And that's the same tag line for 330 00:16:35,590 --> 00:16:37,980 me much of my life. But then I decided to get into a 331 00:16:37,990 --> 00:16:39,720 lot more trouble than I should have, but youth. 332 00:16:39,730 --> 00:16:42,480 And thankfully, I didn't do everything in my power to ruin 333 00:16:42,490 --> 00:16:44,600 my life like I had tried to do with my teen years. 334 00:16:44,610 --> 00:16:47,600 And one day I was working, you know, continuous construction 335 00:16:47,610 --> 00:16:50,270 jobs or I was working in factories and I started doing 336 00:16:50,280 --> 00:16:52,150 the night shift and it was just the absolute worst. 337 00:16:52,160 --> 00:16:54,640 And I just truly felt like my potential was being wasted. 338 00:16:54,690 --> 00:16:57,800 And I checked the mail and lo and behold, there was a flyer 339 00:16:57,810 --> 00:16:59,620 there for a program called Second Career. 340 00:16:59,630 --> 00:17:01,760 I wanted the few government programs that work. 341 00:17:01,770 --> 00:17:04,020 And it was, it felt like it was tailored to me. 342 00:17:04,109 --> 00:17:05,380 But you know, is your name Justin? 343 00:17:05,390 --> 00:17:07,690 Do you hate your life right now? What do you wish you did better? 344 00:17:07,700 --> 00:17:09,329 And that's kind of like, Yup, Yup, Yup. 345 00:17:09,660 --> 00:17:12,800 Those things where I entered, I tried, I applied, and I just 346 00:17:12,810 --> 00:17:15,310 kept waiting for the shoe to fall and for me to kind of be 347 00:17:15,319 --> 00:17:17,170 blunted and stopped what I was trying to do. 348 00:17:17,180 --> 00:17:19,300 And it just kept going forward. And next thing you knew, I was 349 00:17:19,310 --> 00:17:21,550 licensed. And in that I have found great 350 00:17:21,560 --> 00:17:24,839 honor and this practice I've found hauling and it's about 351 00:17:24,849 --> 00:17:27,069 access to justice. And then through that calling 352 00:17:27,079 --> 00:17:30,740 and meeting, you know, John Paul and doing teaching, a second 353 00:17:30,750 --> 00:17:34,080 calling arose in me, which was to educate the profession. 354 00:17:34,090 --> 00:17:36,900 So those entering the field could be on the knowledge. 355 00:17:36,910 --> 00:17:39,520 Because one of the things that I like to emphasize is that 356 00:17:39,530 --> 00:17:41,960 feeling that you get once you understand something that aha 357 00:17:41,970 --> 00:17:45,040 moment or that relief. And if I can provide that to 358 00:17:45,050 --> 00:17:47,460 individuals as far as their understanding the procedure or 359 00:17:47,470 --> 00:17:51,400 process or how the area of law works, then I'm doing something 360 00:17:51,470 --> 00:17:54,040 far greater than just for myself, but for that person and 361 00:17:54,050 --> 00:17:55,700 whoever that person ends up representing. 362 00:17:55,710 --> 00:17:58,990 So that ends up having long lasting effects on society. 363 00:17:59,000 --> 00:18:02,270 And so at the access to justice component became a secondary, 364 00:18:02,280 --> 00:18:04,110 but just as important call for me. 365 00:18:04,120 --> 00:18:06,450 And the paralegal town hall allows for us to do that. 366 00:18:06,460 --> 00:18:09,390 As JP said, it's a lawyer and paralegal coming together and 367 00:18:09,460 --> 00:18:13,350 using common sense to solve issues and address areas that 368 00:18:13,360 --> 00:18:17,450 are lacking and and do so in a way that people tend to or or 369 00:18:17,460 --> 00:18:20,590 have I should say, thankfully, I humbly gravitate. 370 00:18:20,600 --> 00:18:23,340 Towards very interesting though. Thank you so much for for 371 00:18:23,350 --> 00:18:26,530 sharing a little more about your your journeys you get here too. 372 00:18:26,540 --> 00:18:29,350 But I wanted to ask you what challenges paralegals face in 373 00:18:29,360 --> 00:18:32,460 the profession today. And considering that you both 374 00:18:32,470 --> 00:18:35,250 have been in the profession for quite a bit now, I also wanted 375 00:18:35,260 --> 00:18:38,560 to ask you if if you've noticed over the years, if things you 376 00:18:38,570 --> 00:18:41,620 know got better, if there is a few things that are getting 377 00:18:41,630 --> 00:18:46,470 harder or most things are in a way being seen more positively. 378 00:18:46,510 --> 00:18:48,380 So what are what? What's your take on that? 379 00:18:48,450 --> 00:18:50,970 So, I mean, look, I started out 10 years ago. 380 00:18:50,980 --> 00:18:53,160 This profession is about 20 years old next year. 381 00:18:53,250 --> 00:18:54,940 Essentially I started at the halfway point. 382 00:18:54,950 --> 00:18:59,120 So I, I had a very, I would say important seat at this table 383 00:18:59,130 --> 00:19:02,040 where I got to see where had where it had come to and then 384 00:19:02,050 --> 00:19:06,310 where where it has gone now. And there's been a great shift 385 00:19:06,360 --> 00:19:10,280 in, you know, respect for paralegals, especially in the 386 00:19:10,290 --> 00:19:11,990 Criminal Court system where there's, they're not well 387 00:19:12,000 --> 00:19:13,930 represented. It took a long time to get, you 388 00:19:13,940 --> 00:19:16,290 know, enough respect. But that also takes showing up, 389 00:19:16,300 --> 00:19:18,500 being there, people knowing that you do the work and then doing 390 00:19:18,510 --> 00:19:20,450 the work well. So when people think back on or 391 00:19:20,460 --> 00:19:23,410 remember or reflect on the work you've done, it's in a positive 392 00:19:23,420 --> 00:19:26,370 way, which allows for the other paralegal behind you to be 393 00:19:26,380 --> 00:19:30,060 perceived that way as well. You know, and even when I first 394 00:19:30,070 --> 00:19:33,810 started Cook Story, a judge was like, essentially lawyers filed 395 00:19:33,820 --> 00:19:36,970 what's called the designation, which allows them to their 396 00:19:36,980 --> 00:19:39,620 client to designate them to appear to appear in court on 397 00:19:39,630 --> 00:19:42,090 their behalf when the matter is elected to be indictable. 398 00:19:42,160 --> 00:19:44,690 Because usually if it's a summary offence, individuals can 399 00:19:44,700 --> 00:19:46,710 just appear on the strength of what's called an agent or an 400 00:19:46,720 --> 00:19:49,770 agency of the court. And the the judge was mistaken 401 00:19:49,780 --> 00:19:53,950 in asserting that I didn't have the ability to appear on 402 00:19:53,960 --> 00:19:56,450 pursuant to the designation on behalf of council for the 403 00:19:56,460 --> 00:19:58,170 client. But at that point, I had a 404 00:19:58,180 --> 00:20:00,830 choice. I could either argue and become 405 00:20:00,900 --> 00:20:04,370 combative or I could assert myself and then respectfully, 406 00:20:04,900 --> 00:20:06,650 you know, bow to the king essentially. 407 00:20:06,660 --> 00:20:09,050 And I, I did the latter. And thankfully, about a week 408 00:20:09,060 --> 00:20:10,670 later, I happened to be before him again. 409 00:20:10,680 --> 00:20:13,630 And he stopped what he was doing middle of his trial and he 410 00:20:13,640 --> 00:20:15,510 apologized for being misinformed. 411 00:20:15,520 --> 00:20:18,030 And I thought to myself that day, it's a great lesson. 412 00:20:18,040 --> 00:20:20,490 And the cause and effect of our actions. 413 00:20:20,500 --> 00:20:23,320 If I were to have acted or responded in a way that was 414 00:20:23,330 --> 00:20:25,570 combative, he would never went home and double checked or did 415 00:20:25,580 --> 00:20:28,750 the homework and figured out that he was mistaken, which 416 00:20:28,820 --> 00:20:31,290 doesn't just benefit me, it benefits every paralegal after 417 00:20:31,300 --> 00:20:33,440 me and every judge that he speaks to afterwards will be 418 00:20:33,450 --> 00:20:34,760 informed of the exact same thing. 419 00:20:34,770 --> 00:20:36,270 So that. Cause and effect, that butterfly 420 00:20:36,280 --> 00:20:39,190 effect is very important. And so I've watched the, the 421 00:20:39,200 --> 00:20:42,450 growth of it being from feeling like an, and this is all speak 422 00:20:42,460 --> 00:20:43,710 to the first point of the question. 423 00:20:43,780 --> 00:20:46,590 I would find one of the hardest things is the imposter syndrome 424 00:20:46,600 --> 00:20:48,490 aspect of it. We all feel like the kid brother 425 00:20:48,500 --> 00:20:50,820 of the lawyer walking into court or the, the little, the little 426 00:20:50,830 --> 00:20:54,110 cousin or whatever it is. And I'm here to help individuals 427 00:20:54,120 --> 00:20:56,950 find their and Orient themselves in a way that they no longer 428 00:20:56,960 --> 00:21:00,150 have that feeling of second guessing themselves or wondering 429 00:21:00,160 --> 00:21:02,090 if they belong here. Because the answer is that they 430 00:21:02,100 --> 00:21:04,150 do belong here and they should not second guess themselves. 431 00:21:04,160 --> 00:21:05,690 And the imposter syndrome is normal. 432 00:21:05,700 --> 00:21:09,090 Even lawyers sometimes get it. And I would say more often than 433 00:21:09,100 --> 00:21:11,990 sometimes, probably a lot more times than many would admit. 434 00:21:12,100 --> 00:21:15,490 But paralegals just need to get over the fact that the, the old 435 00:21:15,500 --> 00:21:19,000 paralegals that build what they built, the new era paralegals 436 00:21:19,010 --> 00:21:22,080 are doing 4 year programs, for instance, at Humber or our 437 00:21:22,090 --> 00:21:26,170 undergraduates or are using this as a way to get their, the their 438 00:21:26,180 --> 00:21:27,450 bearings before they enter law school. 439 00:21:27,460 --> 00:21:30,060 So it's a whole different caliber of paralegal entering 440 00:21:30,070 --> 00:21:33,080 the fray now and then. That's exactly who we represent. 441 00:21:33,210 --> 00:21:35,790 And again, I think the biggest challenge still remains public 442 00:21:35,800 --> 00:21:37,960 awareness. As I said before, many people 443 00:21:37,970 --> 00:21:41,060 still don't fully understand when and why they should hire a 444 00:21:41,070 --> 00:21:44,190 paralegal compared to a lawyer. And many lawyers themselves 445 00:21:44,200 --> 00:21:46,980 don't necessarily understand what paralegals can do right. 446 00:21:46,990 --> 00:21:49,930 And and so the challenger there and, and as Justin said, there's 447 00:21:49,940 --> 00:21:54,760 been certainly strives me it's made over the last 10 years that 448 00:21:54,770 --> 00:21:57,660 he's been in the profession. And we think that that gap is 449 00:21:57,750 --> 00:22:00,300 getting smaller and smaller where you realize, again, these 450 00:22:00,310 --> 00:22:03,510 are highly educated, highly trained individuals. 451 00:22:03,520 --> 00:22:06,810 And so the best strategy forward to overcome this is continuing 452 00:22:06,820 --> 00:22:10,170 education, further collaboration between legal professionals and 453 00:22:10,180 --> 00:22:12,570 more public outreach, right? I mean, you know, you should see 454 00:22:12,580 --> 00:22:15,360 more awareness of what paralegals can do. 455 00:22:15,640 --> 00:22:19,130 Or is this as we have a phrase that there's a paralegal for 456 00:22:19,140 --> 00:22:21,040 them? Because a lot of lawyers who've 457 00:22:21,050 --> 00:22:24,370 been practicing for 25 years or 30 years, right? 458 00:22:24,380 --> 00:22:26,810 When they hear the word paralegal, they think of the 459 00:22:26,820 --> 00:22:29,490 uneducated. I don't no experience. 460 00:22:29,500 --> 00:22:33,480 I mean, back then, our illegals could just open up a business 461 00:22:33,490 --> 00:22:36,480 and start representing people on traffic tickets with no 462 00:22:36,490 --> 00:22:39,350 education, no insurance, no real experience. 463 00:22:39,420 --> 00:22:42,410 And that would certainly come a long way in two decades from 464 00:22:42,420 --> 00:22:46,190 that and continuing to build on that and will only break down 465 00:22:46,200 --> 00:22:50,290 further barriers for successful paralegals like Mr. Rochester 466 00:22:50,300 --> 00:22:53,670 here and others to continue to move the profession forward. 467 00:22:53,680 --> 00:22:55,530 Amazing, thank you for sharing those. 468 00:22:55,540 --> 00:22:58,810 For those interested in becoming paralegals, what are some of the 469 00:22:58,820 --> 00:23:01,970 skills or experiences that you think are most important to 470 00:23:01,980 --> 00:23:05,870 succeed in this profession? I would say communication is 471 00:23:05,880 --> 00:23:08,510 huge, right? I mean, the number one complaint 472 00:23:08,580 --> 00:23:12,430 of lawyers and paralegals is communication, right? 473 00:23:12,440 --> 00:23:15,730 It's not about competence, it's not about not knowing any slaw 474 00:23:15,740 --> 00:23:19,150 or I mean AI generated hallucinatory law or whatever it 475 00:23:19,160 --> 00:23:21,170 may be. It's about communication. 476 00:23:21,180 --> 00:23:25,790 And so it being able to explain these complex legal ideas 477 00:23:25,800 --> 00:23:29,520 clearly to clients is, is going to potential rates of attention 478 00:23:29,530 --> 00:23:33,370 to detail, having strong advocacy skills, empathy, right? 479 00:23:33,380 --> 00:23:35,750 I mean, it's something, you know, be trauma informed, 480 00:23:36,080 --> 00:23:39,310 paralleling or trauma informed lawyering, right, are also 481 00:23:39,320 --> 00:23:42,010 critical because many clients are going through these 482 00:23:42,070 --> 00:23:44,450 stressful situations when they seek legal help. 483 00:23:44,520 --> 00:23:46,710 And so you're, you're putting on a bunch of different things, 484 00:23:46,720 --> 00:23:48,190 right? You're putting on the legal 485 00:23:48,200 --> 00:23:51,180 advocate, you're putting on the communications, not there, 486 00:23:51,190 --> 00:23:54,070 you're putting the social worker and sometimes. 487 00:23:54,160 --> 00:23:55,660 And so you got to be able to do all of that. 488 00:23:55,670 --> 00:23:58,530 And, and the sort of biggest take away there is how you 489 00:23:58,540 --> 00:24:02,310 communicate that, the right tone, the right words, the right 490 00:24:02,320 --> 00:24:06,210 mix of all of that. So you are firm but fair and 491 00:24:06,220 --> 00:24:08,350 effective in getting the job done for your. 492 00:24:08,360 --> 00:24:10,730 Clients and I'll just, I mean everything, JP said. 493 00:24:10,740 --> 00:24:13,510 Exactly right, but I would say at the at the crux of all that, 494 00:24:13,520 --> 00:24:15,870 at the top of all that is the idea of just being mature, 495 00:24:15,880 --> 00:24:18,210 taking yourself seriously. One of the things I try to 496 00:24:18,220 --> 00:24:20,430 impart of my students is the minute you start taking yourself 497 00:24:20,440 --> 00:24:23,890 seriously, the more the better the chance of success is. 498 00:24:23,900 --> 00:24:27,070 This is a serious endeavor. It's a people based service. 499 00:24:27,140 --> 00:24:28,950 Individuals are paying you and relying on you. 500 00:24:28,960 --> 00:24:30,670 I've urged multiple times in their life. 501 00:24:30,740 --> 00:24:33,190 And it doesn't matter if it's a small claims matter because if 502 00:24:33,200 --> 00:24:36,310 somebody loses, they could not regain damages that they have 503 00:24:36,320 --> 00:24:39,590 incurred or B be subject to damages to be paid. 504 00:24:39,720 --> 00:24:41,730 And that's thousands and thousands of dollars which could 505 00:24:41,740 --> 00:24:44,680 financially ruin them. If the landlord intended matter, 506 00:24:44,720 --> 00:24:47,530 somebody could be the subject of an eviction or somebody could 507 00:24:47,540 --> 00:24:49,650 not get their home back who put a lot of money into it on the 508 00:24:49,660 --> 00:24:52,150 other end of the landlord represented for the landlord for 509 00:24:52,160 --> 00:24:53,590 criminal. I think this makes it pretty 510 00:24:53,600 --> 00:24:55,940 obvious. So you just always in my mind 511 00:24:56,010 --> 00:24:59,060 need to remember that this is a profession that you are entering 512 00:24:59,070 --> 00:25:03,260 A licensed profession and one that is unique in the world. 513 00:25:03,310 --> 00:25:05,800 It's it's one of those no pressure, right? 514 00:25:06,090 --> 00:25:08,480 In reality, we really are the testing ground. 515 00:25:08,490 --> 00:25:11,670 We are the Guinea pigs for this, for this, this thing called the 516 00:25:11,680 --> 00:25:15,540 experiment of paralegals. Much, much appreciated learning 517 00:25:15,550 --> 00:25:18,700 a little bit more about what you, you'd considered good 518 00:25:18,710 --> 00:25:20,100 skills. And it's interesting because I 519 00:25:20,110 --> 00:25:22,920 feel like in many ways it's, it's very similar to what you 520 00:25:22,930 --> 00:25:25,160 know, someone who's going through law school would need to 521 00:25:25,170 --> 00:25:27,100 succeed. So it makes a lot of sense. 522 00:25:27,110 --> 00:25:30,480 And looking ahead, I'm, I'm curious, how do you see the, the 523 00:25:30,490 --> 00:25:34,170 role of paralegals evolving maybe here in Ontario where you 524 00:25:34,180 --> 00:25:37,350 already have those privileges in other areas as you mentioned 525 00:25:37,440 --> 00:25:40,530 U.S. states are are possibly going to test it out. 526 00:25:40,600 --> 00:25:44,690 So over the next 5-10 years and maybe what excites you most 527 00:25:44,700 --> 00:25:47,950 about this future? Yeah, I mean, as far like people 528 00:25:47,960 --> 00:25:50,130 don't realize in a lot of paralegals don't realize the 529 00:25:50,140 --> 00:25:54,010 actual scope of our scope, it's actually quite well represented. 530 00:25:54,020 --> 00:25:56,210 And I think Ontario has a nice balance here. 531 00:25:56,220 --> 00:25:58,350 Sure, a few things could be refined, a few things could be 532 00:25:58,360 --> 00:26:02,190 worked on and a few minor expansions I would say maybe in 533 00:26:02,200 --> 00:26:05,210 the civil putting it up to $100,000 appropriate to me, 534 00:26:05,220 --> 00:26:07,750 certain things in criminal just like minor tweaks. 535 00:26:07,760 --> 00:26:10,550 I, I think after that, I think we are the standard model. 536 00:26:10,560 --> 00:26:13,710 It makes sense that we have we operate within the scope that we 537 00:26:13,720 --> 00:26:15,510 have currently. I think it's well representative 538 00:26:15,520 --> 00:26:18,550 of the level of training and, and, and education that we get 539 00:26:18,620 --> 00:26:22,170 as far as this idea, this experiment spreading across the 540 00:26:22,180 --> 00:26:23,600 globe. I think the proofs in the 541 00:26:23,610 --> 00:26:26,020 pudding. I just did a, a discussion with 542 00:26:26,030 --> 00:26:29,160 the South Korean think tank where I was able to open their 543 00:26:29,170 --> 00:26:31,400 eyes to this idea. And as long as there's people 544 00:26:31,410 --> 00:26:34,820 like John Paul yourself, for instance, myself, we're out here 545 00:26:34,870 --> 00:26:37,800 advocating or, or giving a platform for the accuracy of, of 546 00:26:37,810 --> 00:26:40,340 the idea of this, of paralegal experiment. 547 00:26:40,350 --> 00:26:43,380 I feel like the more the world will will benefit because again, 548 00:26:43,530 --> 00:26:46,930 the justice system is one of the strongest pillars of a society. 549 00:26:46,940 --> 00:26:49,740 When the justice system fault falters, that pillar falters. 550 00:26:49,750 --> 00:26:51,960 And it's usually one of the first things to go when it's 551 00:26:51,970 --> 00:26:54,760 society is crumbling. And I don't, I'm not trying to 552 00:26:54,770 --> 00:26:57,040 be dramatic here. It's, it's, it's, it's a fact, 553 00:26:57,050 --> 00:26:58,680 it's history. It's, you just have to look it 554 00:26:58,690 --> 00:27:00,780 up. So I find that paralegals answer 555 00:27:00,790 --> 00:27:02,860 a question that has been asked for a long time. 556 00:27:02,870 --> 00:27:05,840 And that is, how can the common man have access and, and, and 557 00:27:05,850 --> 00:27:08,370 have fair justice and, and I think the paralegal is the 558 00:27:08,380 --> 00:27:09,790 answer to that. Right. 559 00:27:09,800 --> 00:27:13,960 And to add to that, I mean, one of our colleagues, Sawyer Camp 560 00:27:13,970 --> 00:27:16,960 had this post a few days ago that you know, the word 561 00:27:16,970 --> 00:27:20,290 paralegal comes from the Greek para meaning beside, right. 562 00:27:20,300 --> 00:27:22,600 It's not about replacement, it's not about dilution. 563 00:27:22,610 --> 00:27:25,280 It's a it means operating alongside. 564 00:27:25,290 --> 00:27:28,620 And I think over the next 5 to 10 years in Ontario, you're 565 00:27:28,630 --> 00:27:31,640 going to have again, more and more lawyers like yourself. 566 00:27:31,650 --> 00:27:34,280 You're almost, they're getting called Claudio so excited for 567 00:27:34,290 --> 00:27:35,880 you. But they're they're going to see 568 00:27:35,890 --> 00:27:38,800 that they are working in a legal landscape where there are 569 00:27:38,810 --> 00:27:42,490 paralegals and there are lawyers both on opposite sides are on 570 00:27:42,500 --> 00:27:46,180 the same side assisting clients at providing legal services. 571 00:27:46,270 --> 00:27:49,210 And we're going to also see other jurisdictions like in BC, 572 00:27:49,220 --> 00:27:52,130 like in Alberta, like in in various U.S. states and around 573 00:27:52,140 --> 00:27:54,270 the world, right? I mean, you know, this podcast 574 00:27:54,280 --> 00:27:55,870 is studying law around the world, right? 575 00:27:55,880 --> 00:27:59,630 I mean, people are going to see, well, can we find a way to get 576 00:27:59,640 --> 00:28:03,950 from university to providing legal services where it's not an 577 00:28:03,960 --> 00:28:08,430 8910 year process where it's very expensive and the average 578 00:28:08,440 --> 00:28:11,310 person can't afford that, You know, in in different places 579 00:28:11,320 --> 00:28:13,450 around the world. When I was in high school, if 580 00:28:13,460 --> 00:28:17,490 you want it to be for me was Johnny Cochran, the OJ Simpson 581 00:28:17,500 --> 00:28:19,310 trial. But if you wanted to be a 582 00:28:19,320 --> 00:28:22,070 lawyer, right, you had to go to university, You took a political 583 00:28:22,080 --> 00:28:25,590 science program and then then you did law school and 584 00:28:25,600 --> 00:28:27,730 articling. And you know, it's an 8-9 year 585 00:28:27,740 --> 00:28:29,410 commitment. But you know, when I go and talk 586 00:28:29,420 --> 00:28:32,030 to high school students, I say, well, what about being a 587 00:28:32,040 --> 00:28:33,570 paralegal, right? I mean, you could go to a 588 00:28:33,580 --> 00:28:36,620 program and, and once two years and if you have those those 589 00:28:36,630 --> 00:28:39,720 skills, and then you learn more about the law and you develop 590 00:28:39,730 --> 00:28:43,190 that, you could be there in as little as two years, right? 591 00:28:43,200 --> 00:28:46,150 I mean, in terms of finishing a program, asking your licensing 592 00:28:46,160 --> 00:28:49,390 exams and then learning on the job under we have a coach and 593 00:28:49,400 --> 00:28:51,730 advisor network, for example, with the loss if I do that, 594 00:28:51,800 --> 00:28:53,590 that's where you're going to learn those skills, right? 595 00:28:53,600 --> 00:28:56,350 And so the future again, is paralegals are going to continue 596 00:28:56,360 --> 00:28:58,750 to grow. The legal system is focused on 597 00:28:58,760 --> 00:29:02,070 access to justice, and paralegals have key role in 598 00:29:02,080 --> 00:29:04,950 continue and will continue to pay that key role in making 599 00:29:05,020 --> 00:29:08,030 those legal services approachable and affordable. 600 00:29:08,090 --> 00:29:11,520 And what really excites me is, like Justin and myself, we have 601 00:29:11,530 --> 00:29:15,030 this collaboration between lawyers and paralegals and we'll 602 00:29:15,040 --> 00:29:17,530 build that ecosystem that's going to work better for the 603 00:29:17,540 --> 00:29:21,030 public so you can have everything and and be able to 604 00:29:21,040 --> 00:29:23,830 afford it. It's not dilution, it's working 605 00:29:23,840 --> 00:29:25,450 side-by-side. Fantastic. 606 00:29:25,460 --> 00:29:27,840 I wanted to thank you both for taking the time to being in the 607 00:29:27,850 --> 00:29:31,470 podcast today and for sharing very, very informative 608 00:29:31,480 --> 00:29:34,670 information of really the importance of paralegals should 609 00:29:34,680 --> 00:29:38,110 profession and, and really what you do and and how you go about 610 00:29:38,120 --> 00:29:39,780 it. I really appreciate you taking 611 00:29:39,790 --> 00:29:40,370 the time. Perfect. 612 00:29:40,380 --> 00:29:42,210 Thank you so much, Claudia, for having us. 613 00:29:42,220 --> 00:29:45,410 It was, it's always great. It's nice to be able to talk and 614 00:29:45,420 --> 00:29:47,950 and not just ask questions as well. 615 00:29:47,960 --> 00:29:50,330 And I think it's really important that you know, all 616 00:29:50,340 --> 00:29:52,800 your listeners and, and those around the world, right? 617 00:29:52,810 --> 00:29:54,810 I mean, they may see that there is a future. 618 00:29:54,820 --> 00:29:57,230 Where you could have. Paralegals providing legal 619 00:29:57,240 --> 00:30:00,560 services where ever again, as long as you're getting the the 620 00:30:00,570 --> 00:30:03,500 proper training and the education like we have here in 621 00:30:03,510 --> 00:30:05,620 Ontario, I think the Sky's the limit. 622 00:30:05,630 --> 00:30:08,620 And I'm really proud to to be able to work alongside 623 00:30:08,630 --> 00:30:11,260 exceptional people in the profession like Mr. Rochester 624 00:30:11,270 --> 00:30:13,850 and and many others. And I thank you again for taking 625 00:30:13,860 --> 00:30:15,980 the time to chat. With us today, and I'll echo my 626 00:30:15,990 --> 00:30:18,290 friends sentiment there, obviously, it's an honor and a 627 00:30:18,300 --> 00:30:21,400 privilege to work with alongside Mr. Rodriguez as we traverse 628 00:30:21,410 --> 00:30:25,280 this landscape and try to be essentially a beacon for the 629 00:30:25,290 --> 00:30:29,090 idea of the acceptance and full immersion of paralegals into the 630 00:30:29,100 --> 00:30:30,980 legal field. But also yourself, Claudio. 631 00:30:30,990 --> 00:30:34,160 I think things like this, these types of podcasts, these types 632 00:30:34,170 --> 00:30:37,400 of discussions are important because the law is what society 633 00:30:37,470 --> 00:30:38,980 has. That's the way it protects 634 00:30:38,990 --> 00:30:41,680 itself from the government. That's the way it protects 635 00:30:41,690 --> 00:30:45,230 itself from collapse and the rule of law is quite important 636 00:30:45,240 --> 00:30:49,270 and platforms like yourself that give voice to these discussions 637 00:30:49,580 --> 00:30:53,110 are a vital for that endeavor. So thank you, Sir, for having 638 00:30:53,120 --> 00:30:54,190 us. Absolutely. 639 00:30:54,260 --> 00:30:57,690 Just wanted to say for all any paralegals or paralegal students 640 00:30:57,700 --> 00:30:59,950 or any legal professionals interested that be sure to check 641 00:30:59,960 --> 00:31:04,370 out the paralegal town hall at the theparalegaltownhall.ca 642 00:31:04,380 --> 00:31:07,070 there. And we're very happy to provide 643 00:31:07,080 --> 00:31:11,960 services and help build on the knowledge and the CD's and and 644 00:31:11,970 --> 00:31:13,640 events and everything that we're doing.