1 00:00:12,890 --> 00:00:14,860 Welcome to Studying Law Around the World. 2 00:00:15,030 --> 00:00:17,860 I'm Claudio Klaus. In each episode, I talk with 3 00:00:17,870 --> 00:00:20,840 lawyers, law students, and professors from different parts 4 00:00:20,850 --> 00:00:24,740 of the world to talk about legal education, careers, and what the 5 00:00:24,750 --> 00:00:26,420 profession looks like in real life. 6 00:00:26,430 --> 00:00:29,470 We talk about the hard parts, the surprises, and the decisions 7 00:00:29,480 --> 00:00:32,259 that shaped their paths. Whether you're planning to study 8 00:00:32,270 --> 00:00:35,520 abroad, thinking about working in another legal system, or just 9 00:00:35,530 --> 00:00:39,640 curious about how law works around the world, this podcast 10 00:00:39,650 --> 00:00:44,310 is for you. Today I have the privilege of 11 00:00:44,320 --> 00:00:46,980 interviewing Darren Smith. He was called to the bar in 12 00:00:46,990 --> 00:00:51,650 2004, worked in private practice for 15 years focusing on civil 13 00:00:51,660 --> 00:00:54,580 and commercial litigation before joining Imon Publishing. 14 00:00:54,590 --> 00:00:57,910 Theron has acted as an article in principle and mentor to many 15 00:00:57,920 --> 00:01:01,190 juniors lawyers and has served as a director on the board of 16 00:01:01,200 --> 00:01:03,190 several not-for-profit corporations. 17 00:01:03,200 --> 00:01:06,830 For the past six years, Darren has been helping, developing and 18 00:01:06,840 --> 00:01:10,210 running imand Exam prep. Thank you so much for making the 19 00:01:10,220 --> 00:01:12,610 time to to be here in the podcast today, Darren. 20 00:01:12,900 --> 00:01:14,950 Thank you very much for inviting. 21 00:01:14,960 --> 00:01:18,030 Me absolutely. It's your to start episode. 22 00:01:18,040 --> 00:01:20,770 Even though I did a, a very short introduction, I'd love to 23 00:01:20,780 --> 00:01:23,590 hear a little bit about your story and, and maybe even how 24 00:01:23,600 --> 00:01:25,510 did you decide to go to law school? 25 00:01:25,600 --> 00:01:27,750 How did you get into, you know, litigation? 26 00:01:27,760 --> 00:01:30,770 Was that what you wanted to do all throughout your law school 27 00:01:30,780 --> 00:01:32,630 experience? Tell us a little more about 28 00:01:32,640 --> 00:01:37,930 yourself. OK, Well into law through a very 29 00:01:37,940 --> 00:01:43,150 untraditional way, I found myself at one point in time 30 00:01:43,160 --> 00:01:47,640 after having gone through and got myself a design and 31 00:01:47,650 --> 00:01:51,990 illustration background. I enjoyed science and so I 32 00:01:52,000 --> 00:01:53,990 wanted to become a medical illustrator. 33 00:01:54,060 --> 00:01:58,150 In fact, the school did a science degree at the University 34 00:01:58,160 --> 00:02:01,230 of Toronto in my program involved me in a lot of 35 00:02:01,240 --> 00:02:03,690 forensics. So we were the first accredited 36 00:02:03,700 --> 00:02:08,130 forensic program in Canada. And so I got really interested 37 00:02:08,139 --> 00:02:11,260 in criminal law. And at that time the 38 00:02:11,270 --> 00:02:14,970 International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia was 39 00:02:14,980 --> 00:02:17,490 happening. And Madam Justice, lose our 40 00:02:17,500 --> 00:02:21,170 Bureau, prior to being appointed Supreme Court, was ahead of the 41 00:02:21,180 --> 00:02:25,670 ICT Y. And I dreamt about going to law 42 00:02:25,680 --> 00:02:29,070 school, getting a law degree, taking my forensics background 43 00:02:29,080 --> 00:02:32,800 and working as one of the lawyers at the ICT Y. 44 00:02:32,810 --> 00:02:39,030 And so eventually through that, I found myself in law school and 45 00:02:39,040 --> 00:02:41,630 on my journey to what I'm doing now. 46 00:02:41,640 --> 00:02:45,510 So everything was very organic and nothing was planned and I 47 00:02:45,520 --> 00:02:47,230 just kind of found my way through. 48 00:02:47,240 --> 00:02:49,430 Amazing. Can you can you walk us through 49 00:02:49,440 --> 00:02:52,950 a little more about how specifically you got into the 50 00:02:52,960 --> 00:02:56,250 area that you worked on for for most of the time on civil and 51 00:02:56,260 --> 00:02:59,280 commercial litigation? Was it, you know, love at first 52 00:02:59,290 --> 00:03:02,300 sight? Did you really grow to like the 53 00:03:02,310 --> 00:03:06,090 area the more you stay that or were, you know, ultra law school 54 00:03:06,100 --> 00:03:09,530 really wanting to do it? Again, another funny story where 55 00:03:09,540 --> 00:03:12,190 I just let things happen organically. 56 00:03:12,280 --> 00:03:17,110 I got into law school, I again, wanting to do criminal law from 57 00:03:17,120 --> 00:03:20,350 the perspective that I said I, I knew that I wanted to be in the 58 00:03:20,360 --> 00:03:25,670 courtroom and I did first year and I really did not enjoy 59 00:03:25,680 --> 00:03:29,510 criminal law. So I spent time kind of 60 00:03:29,520 --> 00:03:33,660 exploring in my second and third year in a number of different 61 00:03:33,670 --> 00:03:36,630 areas. Didn't particularly like 62 00:03:36,680 --> 00:03:40,150 business law. It wasn't necessarily my thing. 63 00:03:40,160 --> 00:03:44,450 Found that I did like litigation though, So torts and all that 64 00:03:44,460 --> 00:03:48,500 fun stuff. I thought I'd yeah, do that. 65 00:03:48,510 --> 00:03:52,640 And then I found myself at a boutique litigation firm doing 66 00:03:52,650 --> 00:03:57,180 my articling, and they did a lot of commercial litigation, lot of 67 00:03:57,190 --> 00:04:00,980 real estate work for developers and worked for a lot of 68 00:04:00,990 --> 00:04:03,620 corporations. And that's where I kind of 69 00:04:03,630 --> 00:04:07,370 discovered how incredibly interesting commercial 70 00:04:07,380 --> 00:04:11,280 litigation can be as opposed to some of the other more 71 00:04:11,290 --> 00:04:15,320 traditional litigation areas like personal injury or just 72 00:04:15,390 --> 00:04:19,589 traditional torts. I learned that I had to think on 73 00:04:19,600 --> 00:04:22,740 a different level. Every case was very different. 74 00:04:22,830 --> 00:04:24,660 The facts were different every time. 75 00:04:24,670 --> 00:04:29,220 The law was slightly different and it really engaged my brain. 76 00:04:29,270 --> 00:04:33,300 And because of that, I found that I very quickly which just 77 00:04:33,310 --> 00:04:36,670 started soaking up everything I could about business law, 78 00:04:36,680 --> 00:04:40,830 contracts, everything, litigation and I, I ended up 79 00:04:40,840 --> 00:04:49,640 making a reasonable career. Hey, I'm Tony Albert here with 80 00:04:49,650 --> 00:04:52,720 another LinkedIn tip from Contender, the LinkedIn 81 00:04:52,730 --> 00:04:56,680 ghostwriting agency for lawyers are questioned today. 82 00:04:56,750 --> 00:05:00,100 What are the easiest things I can do to improve my LinkedIn 83 00:05:00,110 --> 00:05:02,380 profile? So there are a few things you 84 00:05:02,390 --> 00:05:06,160 can do very quickly to make it a real difference. 85 00:05:06,230 --> 00:05:09,660 First one, your headshot. If your headshot is a few years 86 00:05:09,670 --> 00:05:14,240 out of date or just not high quality, the camera on your 87 00:05:14,250 --> 00:05:19,200 phone is most likely good enough to get you a really sharp 88 00:05:19,210 --> 00:05:22,090 picture. That is also current update that 89 00:05:22,100 --> 00:05:25,600 that's nice and easy. The banner, if you have that 90 00:05:25,610 --> 00:05:30,890 Gray background or just like a sort of generic design or just 91 00:05:30,900 --> 00:05:37,820 an image and you can update that rule quickly where even 92 00:05:37,830 --> 00:05:41,860 something with the logo of your company, maybe a different photo 93 00:05:41,870 --> 00:05:46,260 of you and just a quick align a sentence about what you do or 94 00:05:46,270 --> 00:05:49,860 who you help and how. Bonus for branding, colours can 95 00:05:49,910 --> 00:05:52,860 make a big difference. The third you're about section, 96 00:05:52,970 --> 00:05:54,860 it's a write it from the first person. 97 00:05:54,910 --> 00:05:59,460 Start with a statement about what drives you, what motivates 98 00:05:59,470 --> 00:06:04,830 you, and instead of making it based on your resume, see if you 99 00:06:04,840 --> 00:06:08,830 can't tell a little story about how you make people's lives 100 00:06:08,840 --> 00:06:11,720 better and how you might be able to help them and how to contact 101 00:06:11,730 --> 00:06:13,410 you. Do those three things, you're 102 00:06:13,420 --> 00:06:18,740 out of the game. I'm mostly curious. 103 00:06:18,750 --> 00:06:21,020 You ask a little more about your transition. 104 00:06:21,030 --> 00:06:23,670 You know, I found it very interesting that you started 105 00:06:23,680 --> 00:06:26,590 with design and then you end up at a publishing company. 106 00:06:26,600 --> 00:06:29,800 So it sounds like your whole career had some interesting 107 00:06:29,810 --> 00:06:33,150 threads looking now, you know, kind of backwards at this moment 108 00:06:33,160 --> 00:06:35,130 in history. But I wanted to ask you, you 109 00:06:35,140 --> 00:06:39,210 know, what motivated you then to transition from private practice 110 00:06:39,260 --> 00:06:42,830 after 15 years litigating into illegal public publishing in 111 00:06:42,840 --> 00:06:46,670 legal education? Well, I, I found that, you know, 112 00:06:46,680 --> 00:06:50,990 as I was continuing on with practice, I was in a situation 113 00:06:51,000 --> 00:06:54,270 where a couple of times I was joining friends, rebuilding 114 00:06:54,280 --> 00:06:59,010 litigation practices and, and departments, a lot of work, a 115 00:06:59,020 --> 00:07:03,020 lot of stress. It's started to wear on the a 116 00:07:03,030 --> 00:07:07,000 bit in terms of my health. I wasn't enjoying it like I used 117 00:07:07,010 --> 00:07:11,700 to, but the one thing that I always did enjoy was the the 118 00:07:11,710 --> 00:07:15,080 teaching aspects of the articling and mentoring. 119 00:07:15,130 --> 00:07:20,420 When it got to the point where for my own self, I wasn't 120 00:07:20,430 --> 00:07:25,480 enjoying it going into going into the firm every day was more 121 00:07:25,490 --> 00:07:29,180 of a chore than something I was excited about doing. 122 00:07:29,250 --> 00:07:33,730 I had to, or at least I told myself I had to really kind of 123 00:07:33,740 --> 00:07:36,260 rethink things. And so I did a little bit of 124 00:07:36,270 --> 00:07:40,680 soul searching, took some time to do that and look to see what 125 00:07:40,690 --> 00:07:43,480 it was that I really, truly loved. 126 00:07:43,490 --> 00:07:48,180 And I found myself kind of going back to my more artistic side. 127 00:07:48,230 --> 00:07:51,500 One of the things that I did in undergrad is part of my science 128 00:07:51,510 --> 00:07:53,460 degree was a lot of professional writing. 129 00:07:53,510 --> 00:07:57,940 And so I was a big proponent when I practiced and written 130 00:07:57,950 --> 00:08:00,780 advocacy. I think that's a skill that is 131 00:08:00,850 --> 00:08:05,060 underutilized and that everybody should learn to master grow. 132 00:08:05,130 --> 00:08:10,880 Sort of thinking about how much I loved writing and the law and 133 00:08:10,890 --> 00:08:16,350 working with young lawyers. I luckily found myself connected 134 00:08:16,360 --> 00:08:20,280 to some people at Emond Publishing and I got an 135 00:08:20,290 --> 00:08:24,270 invitation to make legal education a new career for 136 00:08:24,280 --> 00:08:28,910 myself and I took the plunge at decided it was worth the risk 137 00:08:28,920 --> 00:08:34,470 and I haven't looked back since. I love every single day of OF. 138 00:08:34,480 --> 00:08:37,230 This job amazing. Well, thank you so much for for 139 00:08:37,240 --> 00:08:39,450 sharing that. You did mention that one of your 140 00:08:39,460 --> 00:08:42,049 passions was the teaching, the mentoring aspect of it. 141 00:08:42,159 --> 00:08:45,310 And, and I saw in your bio and, and mentioned it when I was 142 00:08:45,320 --> 00:08:47,530 first introducing you that you've mentored many junior 143 00:08:47,540 --> 00:08:49,800 lawyers. I was thankful to hear a little 144 00:08:49,810 --> 00:08:52,350 bit of your advice as well. But why didn't you ask you? 145 00:08:52,360 --> 00:08:56,590 You know, looking at all your experience and continuing 146 00:08:56,640 --> 00:08:59,370 chatting with these students today, what do you think that 147 00:08:59,380 --> 00:09:02,670 new lawyers struggle with the most nowadays? 148 00:09:04,220 --> 00:09:09,800 Not anything from a substantive perspective, but my experience 149 00:09:09,810 --> 00:09:12,000 in dealing with a lot of candidates and speaking to 150 00:09:12,010 --> 00:09:15,960 people who are preparing to write licensing exams, I get a 151 00:09:15,970 --> 00:09:21,160 mix of a number of things. So there's often, I think, a bit 152 00:09:21,170 --> 00:09:28,150 of overconfidence where people think that they don't need to 153 00:09:28,160 --> 00:09:32,350 work as hard as they really do. And it's not just with respect 154 00:09:32,360 --> 00:09:37,410 to licensing, it's also when it comes to articling and practice 155 00:09:37,420 --> 00:09:39,790 overall. I don't think people are fully 156 00:09:39,800 --> 00:09:43,150 prepared for the amount of work that really needs to go into it. 157 00:09:43,160 --> 00:09:45,810 And that's also something that I experienced with articling 158 00:09:45,820 --> 00:09:49,150 students a lot of times. And I'm not saying this is the 159 00:09:49,160 --> 00:09:53,780 case for everyone, but it's a common thing that I've run into. 160 00:09:53,790 --> 00:09:57,680 And even now when I speak with students and young lawyers are 161 00:09:57,690 --> 00:09:59,910 looking for answers to be handed to them. 162 00:09:59,920 --> 00:10:02,930 They don't want to work, they don't want to do the digging, 163 00:10:02,940 --> 00:10:05,770 they don't want to figure things out on their own. 164 00:10:05,960 --> 00:10:08,930 But there's so much value in doing that. 165 00:10:09,010 --> 00:10:14,260 When I worked with articling students, my I used the Socratic 166 00:10:14,270 --> 00:10:18,560 method or Socratic approach because my area was in 167 00:10:18,570 --> 00:10:21,360 litigation. We lived by the rules of Civil 168 00:10:21,370 --> 00:10:24,680 Procedure. So when an article student would 169 00:10:24,690 --> 00:10:28,400 come to me saying, I don't know what to do, tell me. 170 00:10:28,450 --> 00:10:31,240 The first thing I would say is get your rules. 171 00:10:31,370 --> 00:10:34,630 What are we doing? I'd ask the questions, what are, 172 00:10:34,640 --> 00:10:36,920 what are we in the process of doing? 173 00:10:37,010 --> 00:10:40,140 They respond, I'd say, So what do the rules say? 174 00:10:40,150 --> 00:10:44,120 Like make them read the rule and I'd work through things with 175 00:10:44,130 --> 00:10:47,600 them. And so if you put in the work 176 00:10:47,610 --> 00:10:52,230 and and make the effort to find the answers, even if it's 177 00:10:52,240 --> 00:10:56,230 through being prodded as I would, you learn things, you 178 00:10:56,240 --> 00:11:00,360 retain things, you remember them going forward, and that makes 179 00:11:00,370 --> 00:11:04,700 you better and stronger. So again, it's one having some 180 00:11:04,710 --> 00:11:08,410 humility and understand that you don't know everything coming out 181 00:11:08,420 --> 00:11:13,040 of law school, that you have to put in the time and effort and 182 00:11:13,050 --> 00:11:17,210 that by doing it, it's going to make you that much better, that 183 00:11:17,220 --> 00:11:19,750 much stronger and that much more respected. 184 00:11:19,820 --> 00:11:22,150 Amazing. And I'm assuming that applies 185 00:11:22,160 --> 00:11:24,310 very much to the licensing exams. 186 00:11:24,440 --> 00:11:28,450 It applies to, to all of that like educational aspect of it, 187 00:11:28,460 --> 00:11:29,960 right. So you just mentioned about 188 00:11:30,020 --> 00:11:31,650 taking the time putting in the work. 189 00:11:31,660 --> 00:11:35,050 It sounds very much like what I hear when you know, you're doing 190 00:11:35,120 --> 00:11:39,820 StarCraft Shepley, right, Do do a lot of hours of, of seating 191 00:11:39,830 --> 00:11:42,840 and listening and studying. So I wanted to ask you, you 192 00:11:42,850 --> 00:11:46,140 know, in, in your experience now six years working with legal 193 00:11:46,150 --> 00:11:49,470 education, licensing exams and all of that, what are some of 194 00:11:49,480 --> 00:11:52,720 the skills or habits that have made the difference for 195 00:11:52,730 --> 00:11:56,040 candidates as you've kind of seemed and growing and, and 196 00:11:56,050 --> 00:12:00,020 going through these processes? So there are a number of 197 00:12:00,030 --> 00:12:05,120 different things and I think both substantive and in terms of 198 00:12:05,130 --> 00:12:10,500 other technical things that that are skills that help in terms of 199 00:12:10,510 --> 00:12:13,420 success. So understanding and looking for 200 00:12:13,430 --> 00:12:18,220 different ways to learn. If you struggle with content, 201 00:12:18,320 --> 00:12:23,320 think about other ways. What if a try to take the 202 00:12:23,330 --> 00:12:27,290 information that's contained in the LSO study materials off the 203 00:12:27,300 --> 00:12:29,650 page? Think about it in my head, 204 00:12:29,700 --> 00:12:33,680 trying to work through it. And as I'm doing that, maybe 205 00:12:33,690 --> 00:12:36,990 what I'm doing is I'm drawing charts, I'm preparing a flow 206 00:12:37,000 --> 00:12:41,750 chart, I'm putting together a mind map, I'm laying things out 207 00:12:41,760 --> 00:12:46,370 in a visual format. So opening up your your mind to 208 00:12:46,440 --> 00:12:49,830 different approaches of displaying information and 209 00:12:49,840 --> 00:12:53,190 understanding the information is really important and I think 210 00:12:53,200 --> 00:12:58,030 makes a huge difference because similar to the Socratic method 211 00:12:58,040 --> 00:13:01,850 that I would use with articling students, as you walk through it 212 00:13:01,940 --> 00:13:07,400 and you put it down on paper, you're forcing yourself to think 213 00:13:07,410 --> 00:13:10,460 through it, you retain it better, you understand it 214 00:13:10,470 --> 00:13:12,440 better. Similarly, when I was dealing 215 00:13:12,450 --> 00:13:16,280 with clients who are new to the litigation process and they 216 00:13:16,290 --> 00:13:20,740 didn't understand anything, I would draw out a timeline and I 217 00:13:20,750 --> 00:13:24,760 would indicate roughly when things would happen and what 218 00:13:24,770 --> 00:13:27,280 steps were going to happen, what was involved. 219 00:13:27,290 --> 00:13:32,060 And so as I would draw it visually and break it down, 220 00:13:32,110 --> 00:13:35,600 clients would understand it even if they had never contemplated 221 00:13:35,610 --> 00:13:37,860 anything from a legal perspective in their life. 222 00:13:37,870 --> 00:13:41,600 And if you do that with yourself, you can understand and 223 00:13:41,610 --> 00:13:44,300 work through the most complicated of the substantial 224 00:13:44,310 --> 00:13:47,590 materials. The other things too are things 225 00:13:47,600 --> 00:13:50,430 like discipline. Having discipline is very 226 00:13:50,440 --> 00:13:54,570 important and that can be displayed in something as simple 227 00:13:54,580 --> 00:13:59,430 as creating a study schedule and sticking to it. 228 00:13:59,500 --> 00:14:03,290 So taking the calendar, if it's on your computer, if it's in, 229 00:14:03,620 --> 00:14:07,110 you know, in a book or anything like that, figuring out what's 230 00:14:07,120 --> 00:14:10,930 my plan of attack, knowing when the exam is working backwards to 231 00:14:10,940 --> 00:14:13,690 wherever you are in time and saying, I'm going to cover this 232 00:14:13,700 --> 00:14:18,010 material in this way on these days, including any resources 233 00:14:18,020 --> 00:14:20,150 that you doing and sticking to it. 234 00:14:20,160 --> 00:14:23,570 Hold yourself accountable for doing all of that. 235 00:14:23,580 --> 00:14:27,970 It it creates a steady, organized plan. 236 00:14:28,040 --> 00:14:31,650 It helps you ensure that you're covering everything so there are 237 00:14:31,660 --> 00:14:35,330 no gaps, you're not missing something accidentally and and 238 00:14:35,340 --> 00:14:39,050 it ensures that you as best prepared as you can within the 239 00:14:39,060 --> 00:14:42,900 timeline you've got other things like practice exam. 240 00:14:43,090 --> 00:14:47,300 It's unbelievable how effective and important practice exams 241 00:14:47,310 --> 00:14:51,540 are, are for it not for the purposes of testing your memory 242 00:14:51,610 --> 00:14:54,300 because nobody is going to remember all that material for 243 00:14:54,310 --> 00:14:56,440 the exam. But what it does is it allows 244 00:14:56,450 --> 00:14:59,740 you to practice other techniques that are super important for 245 00:14:59,890 --> 00:15:05,040 time management is a massively important tool and technique for 246 00:15:05,050 --> 00:15:09,660 you to be able to employ. It's amazing how easily you can 247 00:15:09,710 --> 00:15:14,190 lose control of the time and it just snowballs after that. 248 00:15:14,240 --> 00:15:18,450 Other things like answering the questions using certain 249 00:15:18,460 --> 00:15:21,500 techniques, so eliminating the obvious, if you're able to 250 00:15:21,510 --> 00:15:24,900 eliminate answers that obviously wrong using clues from the 251 00:15:24,910 --> 00:15:29,040 questions, then it helps you spend your time more effectively 252 00:15:29,050 --> 00:15:32,460 on those potential answers. And that again requires 253 00:15:32,470 --> 00:15:35,420 discipline and practice through doing things like practice 254 00:15:35,430 --> 00:15:39,220 exams. So yeah, it it's again the a 255 00:15:39,230 --> 00:15:42,900 substantive approach and a technical approach as well that 256 00:15:42,910 --> 00:15:45,360 requires discipline and hard work. 257 00:15:46,780 --> 00:15:50,020 Opinions, you know, on the row of exempt preparation, 258 00:15:50,110 --> 00:15:52,380 specifically in, in legal education. 259 00:15:52,430 --> 00:15:56,340 And if you see this role changing a little bit, both for 260 00:15:56,350 --> 00:15:58,300 the examination and the preparation. 261 00:15:58,510 --> 00:16:00,950 When you look at, you know, the experience you've had for the 262 00:16:00,960 --> 00:16:04,000 last six years, has this been changing a little bit in Canada? 263 00:16:04,010 --> 00:16:07,180 Has this, you know, kind of stayed the same throughout this 264 00:16:07,190 --> 00:16:10,500 this time that you've been kind of following these very closely? 265 00:16:10,510 --> 00:16:13,590 I don't know if you were licensed back in the time where 266 00:16:13,600 --> 00:16:17,820 you had bar ads or what was the the licensing method back or 267 00:16:17,830 --> 00:16:21,060 when you did it, but I'd love to hear your comments on on all of 268 00:16:21,070 --> 00:16:25,120 this. He was fortunate enough that I 269 00:16:25,130 --> 00:16:29,320 did go through the bar ads process and it was, I actually 270 00:16:29,330 --> 00:16:32,760 thought it was pretty good. I like the approach and spending 271 00:16:32,770 --> 00:16:36,280 time in the classroom learning about that particular subject, 272 00:16:36,330 --> 00:16:40,930 being taught by an expert in addition to working through the 273 00:16:40,940 --> 00:16:42,680 materials and then writing exams on it. 274 00:16:42,740 --> 00:16:46,560 And obviously the examination of the licensing process has 275 00:16:46,570 --> 00:16:51,900 changed since then, but I think that what exam preparation does 276 00:16:51,910 --> 00:16:56,590 now is important because I think the one thing that people don't 277 00:16:56,600 --> 00:17:00,770 understand about this licensing process, and it's unique in this 278 00:17:00,780 --> 00:17:03,770 because not a lot of people discuss this, but I look at it 279 00:17:03,780 --> 00:17:06,680 from the perspective of the mandate of the Law Society. 280 00:17:06,690 --> 00:17:10,430 And again, there's appreciate that you want exam prep is very 281 00:17:10,440 --> 00:17:14,329 Ontario focused. Ontario is the only province in 282 00:17:14,339 --> 00:17:18,490 Canada or territory that has this particular type of 283 00:17:18,500 --> 00:17:22,030 licensing exam where it's strictly multiple choice based 284 00:17:22,040 --> 00:17:25,310 upon different fact based questions or scenario based 285 00:17:25,319 --> 00:17:29,850 questions. And I think that despite the 286 00:17:29,900 --> 00:17:33,550 opinions about standardized tests and how they are not 287 00:17:33,560 --> 00:17:37,350 equitable and all that, it's important because if you 288 00:17:37,420 --> 00:17:41,280 consider the mandate of the Law Society, its mandate is to 289 00:17:41,290 --> 00:17:45,100 protect the public. It's not to protect the lawyers. 290 00:17:45,110 --> 00:17:49,560 And that has to be understood in the sense that what the 291 00:17:49,570 --> 00:17:54,040 licensing process does is it allows candidates to demonstrate 292 00:17:54,190 --> 00:17:58,660 a minimum understanding or minimum level of competencies. 293 00:17:59,610 --> 00:18:06,900 And the goal behind this is to ensure that brand new licensees 294 00:18:06,910 --> 00:18:09,720 on the very first day of practice after being called, 295 00:18:09,730 --> 00:18:12,500 when the training wheels are off, you're no longer an 296 00:18:12,510 --> 00:18:14,660 articling student need. This is for real. 297 00:18:14,710 --> 00:18:18,060 You can sit down with clients, whether you're working for a 298 00:18:18,070 --> 00:18:22,330 firm or you're on your own, so you can be handed a file and you 299 00:18:22,340 --> 00:18:26,390 can actually look at it, understand what's important, 300 00:18:26,400 --> 00:18:31,630 what's not, what the law really is, how it really applies, and 301 00:18:31,640 --> 00:18:36,350 provide proper legal advice. And that's the thing that that 302 00:18:36,360 --> 00:18:38,710 really kind of gets missed in all the discussions. 303 00:18:38,720 --> 00:18:42,670 It's about being able to provide proper legal advice. 304 00:18:42,680 --> 00:18:46,530 And so a lot of times as a new lawyer, you might be sitting 305 00:18:46,580 --> 00:18:51,900 with clients discussing what they think is important and all 306 00:18:51,910 --> 00:18:56,010 the facts in their matter that they think is important and what 307 00:18:56,060 --> 00:19:00,750 their rates of remedies are. But in fact, you need to be able 308 00:19:00,760 --> 00:19:05,210 to sift through all that stuff and say, you know, really it's 309 00:19:05,260 --> 00:19:08,110 using its acts. It's really wide. 310 00:19:08,300 --> 00:19:12,750 And you know, yeah, you maybe you've been wronged in this way 311 00:19:12,760 --> 00:19:18,230 and you've got a case here, but you're real real, you know, 312 00:19:18,280 --> 00:19:23,270 remedy or the real action lies from this piece of legislation. 313 00:19:23,280 --> 00:19:27,620 And so that's what the law societies examination, the 314 00:19:27,630 --> 00:19:32,030 licensing examination tries to get the lawyers to the point of 315 00:19:32,040 --> 00:19:34,500 it's about application of the law. 316 00:19:34,560 --> 00:19:37,550 It's about critical thinking processes. 317 00:19:37,620 --> 00:19:41,410 That's why the exam isn't straight recall. 318 00:19:41,580 --> 00:19:45,720 Anybody can go look through the materials or memorize many facts 319 00:19:45,730 --> 00:19:49,000 and figures as possible, but what's really required for 320 00:19:49,010 --> 00:19:53,080 success in the examined and the way it's set up in Ontario is it 321 00:19:53,090 --> 00:19:56,880 requires you to take that knowledge and apply it to 322 00:19:56,890 --> 00:20:02,480 specific facts or scenario in a way that applies that knowledge 323 00:20:02,490 --> 00:20:04,910 and information that you're getting from the materials, from 324 00:20:04,920 --> 00:20:07,900 law school and from any other things that you're using to 325 00:20:07,910 --> 00:20:11,800 study and demonstrate the Law Society that yeah, I understand 326 00:20:11,810 --> 00:20:16,040 it, I can apply it and I can provide proper legal advice on 327 00:20:16,050 --> 00:20:17,340 day. One amazing. 328 00:20:17,350 --> 00:20:19,340 Thank you so much for for sharing that there. 329 00:20:19,350 --> 00:20:22,700 And I'm curious to hear a little more about, you know, your, your 330 00:20:22,710 --> 00:20:24,400 decision making throughout your career. 331 00:20:24,410 --> 00:20:27,880 You mentioned you, you've been at different firms and and you 332 00:20:27,890 --> 00:20:30,740 did this work for quite a while, mentored a lot of people. 333 00:20:30,750 --> 00:20:34,000 So if I may ask, you know, what are some of the decisions or 334 00:20:34,010 --> 00:20:36,960 experiences that you've gone through that really had the 335 00:20:36,970 --> 00:20:40,580 biggest impact on your professional growth looking back 336 00:20:40,590 --> 00:20:43,940 as you kind of look at this career, you know, over 20 years 337 00:20:43,950 --> 00:20:47,420 out in in the market? That is, it's a challenging 338 00:20:47,430 --> 00:20:51,380 question because there are a lot of experiences that I've been 339 00:20:51,390 --> 00:20:54,720 through, some amazing and and some not very good. 340 00:20:54,770 --> 00:20:59,530 But I think probably one of the biggest lessons that I learned, 341 00:20:59,540 --> 00:21:03,280 and I had to learn this very quickly, and I think all young 342 00:21:03,290 --> 00:21:05,320 lawyers are going to have to learn this as well. 343 00:21:05,330 --> 00:21:10,000 Is that a loss of business? We or most of us spend our time 344 00:21:10,010 --> 00:21:13,680 in law school thinking that we are going to change the world, 345 00:21:13,690 --> 00:21:15,870 that we're going to fight the good fight. 346 00:21:15,880 --> 00:21:18,420 And in many cases we do get to do that. 347 00:21:18,490 --> 00:21:23,480 But most of us be realistic, end up working for firms or for 348 00:21:23,490 --> 00:21:28,520 ourselves and quickly need to understand that what we as 349 00:21:28,530 --> 00:21:33,240 lawyers do is provide a service. And that service is part of a 350 00:21:33,250 --> 00:21:36,220 business. And so we need to understand 351 00:21:36,230 --> 00:21:39,960 that very quickly. And a lot of things that will 352 00:21:39,970 --> 00:21:44,620 happen in your time practicing law will be shaped around the 353 00:21:44,630 --> 00:21:49,370 fact that it's a business. Sometimes you will butt heads 354 00:21:49,380 --> 00:21:53,780 with people and a lot of the reason for that is because of 355 00:21:53,790 --> 00:21:56,250 the nature of it being a business. 356 00:21:56,260 --> 00:21:59,650 Some people you know, will have issues. 357 00:21:59,660 --> 00:22:01,510 Maybe you're having a better year than them. 358 00:22:01,560 --> 00:22:05,330 Maybe you're getting more clients or maybe they wish they 359 00:22:05,340 --> 00:22:08,040 had got that client instead of you. 360 00:22:08,100 --> 00:22:11,160 Maybe they wish that they were brought on that file because 361 00:22:11,170 --> 00:22:13,370 they know it's going to be big and you're going to be able to 362 00:22:13,380 --> 00:22:16,760 bill and, and meet your quotas, all those kinds of things. 363 00:22:16,770 --> 00:22:20,390 And so people may not change their attitudes about you. 364 00:22:20,400 --> 00:22:24,110 And it's really interesting. I, I can't speak for all of 365 00:22:24,120 --> 00:22:27,010 Ontario, but my experience has been in Toronto. 366 00:22:27,100 --> 00:22:30,170 Toronto is very much driven by the business. 367 00:22:30,180 --> 00:22:33,950 And so in addition to having to learn about the law and all the 368 00:22:33,960 --> 00:22:36,750 other things that you do, especially as a litigator, 369 00:22:36,820 --> 00:22:41,120 having to learn how to not only just the law and how to do 370 00:22:41,130 --> 00:22:44,900 written advocacy effectively, but also oral advocacy and all 371 00:22:44,910 --> 00:22:47,460 the court etiquettes and all of that stuff. 372 00:22:47,470 --> 00:22:51,520 But you're also having to learn all the all the etiquettes of 373 00:22:51,530 --> 00:22:54,840 firm life. You're having to do the client 374 00:22:54,850 --> 00:22:57,740 development. You're having to worry about 375 00:22:57,790 --> 00:23:01,520 what the guy in the next office might be saying to try and get 376 00:23:01,530 --> 00:23:04,560 work instead of you, all those little things. 377 00:23:04,570 --> 00:23:09,320 And this isn't being said to to throw shade on practice on the 378 00:23:09,330 --> 00:23:12,300 practice of law. But if you're asking what is it 379 00:23:12,310 --> 00:23:16,100 that I had to learn the most and what is it that drove a lot of 380 00:23:16,110 --> 00:23:20,680 my decisions about where I went and what I did and all of that. 381 00:23:20,770 --> 00:23:25,680 I think a lot of it again, was, you know, the Nexus was the 382 00:23:25,750 --> 00:23:30,140 business of of the law where people, you know, there were 383 00:23:30,150 --> 00:23:33,200 situations where partners didn't want to spend the money to 384 00:23:33,210 --> 00:23:35,760 provide resources because it cost money. 385 00:23:35,770 --> 00:23:40,180 And you're working a lot harder, a lot later, you know, extra 386 00:23:40,190 --> 00:23:43,880 days, all those kinds of things just to do the things that, you 387 00:23:43,890 --> 00:23:47,000 know, some help would make it easier for you. 388 00:23:47,010 --> 00:23:50,920 And then that adds up, or at least it did with me. 389 00:23:50,930 --> 00:23:54,370 And it gets to a point where now that starts to affect your 390 00:23:54,380 --> 00:23:57,410 health and your ability to do good quality work or you're 391 00:23:57,420 --> 00:23:59,400 retired. And so you're not thinking the 392 00:23:59,410 --> 00:24:01,220 way you should be. Fantastic. 393 00:24:01,230 --> 00:24:04,200 Well, I really appreciate you sharing that this is one of the, 394 00:24:04,470 --> 00:24:06,810 as the main points that you can't really, it's something 395 00:24:06,820 --> 00:24:09,590 that school doesn't teach and that it really is, you know, 396 00:24:09,600 --> 00:24:12,670 shaped by life, shaped by experience and, and shaped by 397 00:24:12,680 --> 00:24:14,490 the different environments you've been on, right? 398 00:24:14,500 --> 00:24:18,390 It's, it's easy to in a way, be really naive being in, in 399 00:24:18,400 --> 00:24:20,750 different environments, right? It, it, it was much of my 400 00:24:20,760 --> 00:24:22,830 experience. I've actually had this, one of 401 00:24:22,840 --> 00:24:26,850 my supervisors in a, in a job that I had about like 5-5, six 402 00:24:26,860 --> 00:24:29,490 years ago that specifically told me that he thought it was a 403 00:24:29,500 --> 00:24:32,350 little being a little bit too naive dealing with my colleagues 404 00:24:32,360 --> 00:24:34,310 and all of that. And, and it's interesting, 405 00:24:34,320 --> 00:24:37,050 right, because when you're trying to leave by a set of 406 00:24:37,060 --> 00:24:40,710 values and all of that, then at at what point, you know, it 407 00:24:40,720 --> 00:24:43,550 makes sense to you, you know, maybe get more business and, and 408 00:24:43,560 --> 00:24:47,050 make things a little bit different, but not living true 409 00:24:47,060 --> 00:24:50,510 to those values as well. So I can see how all of it can 410 00:24:50,520 --> 00:24:54,390 play it very different role and, and how each experience is just 411 00:24:54,400 --> 00:24:57,450 so unique and so personal to, to one person, right? 412 00:24:57,460 --> 00:25:00,510 I can see how two articles students can go to the same firm 413 00:25:00,580 --> 00:25:03,230 and have completely different experiences. 414 00:25:03,300 --> 00:25:06,850 So it's it's always fun to see like how much do you really 415 00:25:06,860 --> 00:25:10,070 control and then how much it's not really up to you, but. 416 00:25:10,120 --> 00:25:12,970 So absolutely. And I think you said something 417 00:25:12,980 --> 00:25:16,510 very important, and that is that these are the kinds of things 418 00:25:16,520 --> 00:25:19,450 that law school doesn't teach us, and it doesn't prepare us 419 00:25:19,460 --> 00:25:22,050 for the law. Law school prepares us for the 420 00:25:22,060 --> 00:25:25,010 theory. They teach us the substantive 421 00:25:25,020 --> 00:25:28,910 part of law. They don't necessarily get us 422 00:25:28,920 --> 00:25:31,610 ready for the realities of practice. 423 00:25:31,710 --> 00:25:35,260 And that's probably the biggest culture shock coming out of 424 00:25:35,270 --> 00:25:38,830 school, getting licensed and going into the profession. 425 00:25:38,840 --> 00:25:42,300 Article will start to give you that sense and you'll see 426 00:25:42,310 --> 00:25:46,580 different experiences and each person will have a different a 427 00:25:46,590 --> 00:25:49,400 different experience based upon who they work with, what they 428 00:25:49,410 --> 00:25:52,880 work on, and that individual as well. 429 00:25:52,970 --> 00:25:57,580 And so like, I don't know if it's like yourself, but 430 00:25:57,590 --> 00:26:03,990 certainly with me in of alignment with the comment that 431 00:26:04,000 --> 00:26:08,000 you said somebody made to you, I was naive about it. 432 00:26:08,010 --> 00:26:12,660 And I think a large portion of people are just as naive. 433 00:26:12,670 --> 00:26:15,860 We just don't talk about that. We don't open up about it. 434 00:26:15,930 --> 00:26:19,020 We won't say things like that because it's not part of the 435 00:26:19,030 --> 00:26:20,830 culture. Fantastic church. 436 00:26:20,840 --> 00:26:23,860 To wrap up today's episode, I wanted to hear what kind of 437 00:26:23,870 --> 00:26:27,200 advice would you give to your younger self, maybe if you were, 438 00:26:27,210 --> 00:26:29,960 you know, starting a legal career again today? 439 00:26:30,030 --> 00:26:34,520 Probably the same advice I give to everyone, and I do this 440 00:26:34,530 --> 00:26:38,500 because I say this because I want people to benefit from the 441 00:26:38,510 --> 00:26:42,130 lessons that I learned. So first thing I would say to 442 00:26:42,140 --> 00:26:46,570 myself is be a sponge. Soak up as much as you can. 443 00:26:46,650 --> 00:26:50,150 The word is much as you can. And it's not just from being 444 00:26:50,200 --> 00:26:54,170 involved in a file or learning, doing a particular bit of 445 00:26:54,180 --> 00:26:56,970 research or anything like that, but it's also related to the 446 00:26:56,980 --> 00:27:01,970 culture within the firm within within the industry, right? 447 00:27:01,980 --> 00:27:05,630 Like RAW is there are a lot of lawyers, but it's a very small 448 00:27:05,640 --> 00:27:08,530 community. And so there's a lot to learn, 449 00:27:08,540 --> 00:27:12,410 not just about the practice, but about the culture, the 450 00:27:12,420 --> 00:27:15,570 etiquettes, all those things, how you work with others, 451 00:27:15,640 --> 00:27:19,350 understanding how important your reputation is. 452 00:27:19,360 --> 00:27:21,340 And that starts right from day one. 453 00:27:22,480 --> 00:27:27,170 The, the other thing, and I, I've said this to a few people 454 00:27:27,240 --> 00:27:32,750 that, you know, I try to and care to give good advice to is 455 00:27:32,800 --> 00:27:36,030 learn how to say no. And that's something that I 456 00:27:36,040 --> 00:27:39,130 didn't necessarily do from the, from the beginning. 457 00:27:39,140 --> 00:27:42,450 And it's hard when you're an articling student or a young 458 00:27:42,460 --> 00:27:45,530 lawyer, you know, you call or within your first couple of 459 00:27:45,540 --> 00:27:49,110 years, because the idea or the thinking is we never want to say 460 00:27:49,120 --> 00:27:52,030 no because we never know when we're going to get asked again. 461 00:27:52,040 --> 00:27:55,880 And we need the work and we're always looking to be accepted 462 00:27:55,890 --> 00:27:59,090 and we want to get hired back and all those other reasons. 463 00:27:59,100 --> 00:28:04,710 But you can say no for the reason that or should say no for 464 00:28:04,720 --> 00:28:07,490 the reason that. If you don't, it quickly becomes 465 00:28:07,500 --> 00:28:11,170 overwhelming the quality of your work as you're trying to juggle 466 00:28:11,180 --> 00:28:15,770 so many things and keep so many balls in the air slips that 467 00:28:15,780 --> 00:28:19,570 makes you look bad. You don't necessarily end up 468 00:28:19,580 --> 00:28:22,350 hitting your deadlines. And when you do hand things in, 469 00:28:22,360 --> 00:28:25,920 it's maybe incomplete or you've missed things because your 470 00:28:25,930 --> 00:28:31,590 attention is spread too thin. What works is trying to manage 471 00:28:31,600 --> 00:28:33,940 that and you can manage expectations. 472 00:28:33,950 --> 00:28:38,710 So in a way of saying no, the way to for a young lawyer or an 473 00:28:38,720 --> 00:28:43,420 article student to approach this is they say yes, I'd love to do 474 00:28:43,430 --> 00:28:46,410 that for you. Thank you for asking me about 475 00:28:46,420 --> 00:28:48,700 it. I'm happy to do it, but I'm 476 00:28:48,760 --> 00:28:52,700 working on something right now for this lawyer and that lawyer 477 00:28:52,710 --> 00:28:55,600 and I've got another project and these are one they'll do. 478 00:28:55,650 --> 00:29:01,200 I can do this for you, but I can't do it until whatever time 479 00:29:01,280 --> 00:29:04,860 and then let that goes is it manages the expectations and it 480 00:29:04,870 --> 00:29:08,480 gives the lawyer who is providing you work or the 481 00:29:08,490 --> 00:29:12,980 opportunity to decide for themselves whether or not they 482 00:29:12,990 --> 00:29:15,740 still want you to do it. If it's not time sensitive. 483 00:29:15,750 --> 00:29:20,440 And you'd be amazed even without seeing it to you, but you'd be 484 00:29:20,450 --> 00:29:25,260 amazed at how much that is respected because it shows 485 00:29:25,270 --> 00:29:28,480 maturity and it shows incredible professionalism. 486 00:29:28,840 --> 00:29:34,840 And it also saves you. You're not as overwhelmed, 487 00:29:34,850 --> 00:29:38,080 you're not as stressed, and you're doing better quality work 488 00:29:38,090 --> 00:29:41,620 and you're able to meet your obligations, which is so 489 00:29:41,630 --> 00:29:44,340 important, particularly when you're just starting. 490 00:29:44,350 --> 00:29:46,900 Out I really appreciate you making the time to be in the 491 00:29:46,910 --> 00:29:49,940 podcast today there and thank you so much for listening to 492 00:29:49,950 --> 00:29:52,860 today's episode as well. Thank you so so much.