1 00:00:12,880 --> 00:00:14,880 Welcome to Studying Law Around the World. 2 00:00:15,020 --> 00:00:17,870 I'm Claudio Claus. In each episode, I talk with 3 00:00:17,880 --> 00:00:20,850 lawyers, law students, and professors from different parts 4 00:00:20,860 --> 00:00:24,730 of the world to talk about legal education, careers, and what the 5 00:00:24,740 --> 00:00:26,410 profession looks like in real life. 6 00:00:26,420 --> 00:00:29,470 We talk about the hard parts, the surprises, and the decisions 7 00:00:29,480 --> 00:00:32,270 that shaped their paths. Whether you're planning to study 8 00:00:32,280 --> 00:00:35,520 abroad, thinking about working in another legal system, or just 9 00:00:35,530 --> 00:00:39,630 curious about how law works around the world, this podcast 10 00:00:39,640 --> 00:00:45,430 is for you. Today I have the opportunity to 11 00:00:45,480 --> 00:00:49,290 be meeting with Amber Newman. She has a wonderful story. 12 00:00:49,300 --> 00:00:51,750 She holds a JD from the University of Toronto. 13 00:00:51,920 --> 00:00:55,610 She has a certificate in mental Health law from Osgoode Hall Law 14 00:00:55,620 --> 00:00:59,910 School, and she has worked in several different institutions 15 00:00:59,920 --> 00:01:03,970 from being Crown Council and Adjudicator and also for having 16 00:01:03,980 --> 00:01:06,870 a position at the Office of the Public Guardian and Trustee and 17 00:01:06,880 --> 00:01:09,950 now with her very own law firm. Thank you so much for taking the 18 00:01:09,960 --> 00:01:11,950 time to speak with me today, Amber. 19 00:01:12,000 --> 00:01:14,670 Very excited for a chat today. Thank you. 20 00:01:14,680 --> 00:01:16,590 I'm so happy to be here. Thank you for inviting me. 21 00:01:17,490 --> 00:01:20,080 Absolutely. And she started conversation. 22 00:01:20,090 --> 00:01:23,360 I'd love to ask you to introduce yourself to your listeners. 23 00:01:23,410 --> 00:01:27,210 So who's Amber today and what also guides your working lot 24 00:01:27,220 --> 00:01:31,070 these days? Well, I'm, I'm Amber Newman, I, 25 00:01:31,080 --> 00:01:34,950 I'm in Ontario lawyer and I describe my practice as being 26 00:01:34,960 --> 00:01:37,410 sort of focused on the intersection of psychosocial 27 00:01:37,420 --> 00:01:41,030 disability and civil litigation. So this usually looks like 28 00:01:41,040 --> 00:01:43,770 matters having to do with substitute decision making and 29 00:01:43,780 --> 00:01:46,030 questions around consent and capacity. 30 00:01:46,240 --> 00:01:48,610 Most of my work is about property rights, like about 31 00:01:48,620 --> 00:01:51,370 stuff about money, about the things that you own your assets. 32 00:01:51,760 --> 00:01:54,460 But I've also had a fair amount of experience looking at these 33 00:01:54,470 --> 00:01:56,140 questions in the context of healthcare. 34 00:01:56,150 --> 00:01:58,890 And as you mentioned at the top, I sat on the consenting capacity 35 00:01:58,900 --> 00:02:01,250 board for a while. So, so that's what I do. 36 00:02:01,260 --> 00:02:04,310 I, I do psychosocial disability and civil litigation. 37 00:02:04,320 --> 00:02:07,150 I don't get into criminal like I just do the civil litigation. 38 00:02:08,250 --> 00:02:11,200 Amazing. And can you, can we go a little 39 00:02:11,210 --> 00:02:14,860 bit more of what does psychosocial disability mean to 40 00:02:14,870 --> 00:02:17,350 start with? Ooh, that's a good question. 41 00:02:17,400 --> 00:02:20,670 So it's, it's a very deliberate choice. 42 00:02:20,820 --> 00:02:24,430 I say psychosocial disability instead of mental health or 43 00:02:24,440 --> 00:02:26,930 mental health issues or mental illness. 44 00:02:27,020 --> 00:02:30,110 And that's because that language reflects a shift from the 45 00:02:30,120 --> 00:02:33,090 medical model to to a right space model. 46 00:02:33,460 --> 00:02:35,870 It's certainly not of my making. It's something that aligns with 47 00:02:35,880 --> 00:02:38,350 the United Nations Convention on the Rights of persons with 48 00:02:38,360 --> 00:02:41,650 Disability, for example. So when we say psychosocial 49 00:02:41,660 --> 00:02:45,010 disability, we're recognizing that a person's challenges don't 50 00:02:45,020 --> 00:02:48,270 exist in isolation. It's not in solar, certainly not 51 00:02:48,280 --> 00:02:51,760 solely within their own mind. It's shaped by social, legal, 52 00:02:51,860 --> 00:02:55,970 environmental barriers, stigma, discrimination, lack of support. 53 00:02:55,980 --> 00:02:58,970 And that can disable participation and autonomy just 54 00:02:58,980 --> 00:03:02,120 as much as the condition itself. Rather than framing a person as 55 00:03:02,130 --> 00:03:04,840 somehow impaired, the term acknowledges that there's this 56 00:03:04,850 --> 00:03:07,510 interaction between the individual and society. 57 00:03:07,570 --> 00:03:10,980 And it calls on systems, including the legal system, to 58 00:03:11,430 --> 00:03:14,540 those those barriers. So that that's why I choose that 59 00:03:14,550 --> 00:03:15,720 phrase. That's why I choose to speak 60 00:03:15,730 --> 00:03:17,820 that way. I see. 61 00:03:17,980 --> 00:03:21,220 That's so interesting. And speaking specifically about 62 00:03:21,230 --> 00:03:24,510 that and thinking about all the roles you've had in different 63 00:03:24,520 --> 00:03:28,070 capacities specifically on this area of law, are there such 64 00:03:28,080 --> 00:03:31,890 things as, you know, lawyers have this common mistakes or 65 00:03:31,980 --> 00:03:36,570 common misunderstandings about capacity, consent and the client 66 00:03:36,580 --> 00:03:38,970 experience that you've seen repeatedly? 67 00:03:39,040 --> 00:03:42,930 And maybe is there a few things that you've noticed quite a few 68 00:03:42,940 --> 00:03:45,330 times that maybe we as a profession can do better? 69 00:03:46,270 --> 00:03:48,640 Oh, that's a good question. I mean, there's so much to talk 70 00:03:48,650 --> 00:03:49,780 about, there's so much to unpack. 71 00:03:49,790 --> 00:03:52,090 I don't know if I would, I would, I would call it sort of 72 00:03:52,100 --> 00:03:53,420 mistakes or errors that we're making. 73 00:03:53,430 --> 00:03:57,180 It's just, it's an interesting and unusual area of law. 74 00:03:57,190 --> 00:03:59,460 So there's lots of stuff to unpack and look at. 75 00:03:59,930 --> 00:04:03,340 I think if there's one point that I would want to get across, 76 00:04:03,350 --> 00:04:06,600 it's it's at capacity just isn't a fixed label. 77 00:04:06,690 --> 00:04:09,370 It's, it's fluid. It depends on the nature of the 78 00:04:09,380 --> 00:04:11,730 decision. It depends on the moment in time 79 00:04:12,570 --> 00:04:15,630 that someone might have capacity for one purpose but not for 80 00:04:15,640 --> 00:04:19,110 another and it might fluctuate with time as well as other 81 00:04:19,120 --> 00:04:22,180 factors. So the test for capacity to 82 00:04:22,190 --> 00:04:24,960 instruct council, for example, it's not the same as the test 83 00:04:24,970 --> 00:04:27,540 for capacity. And Mary, and that test is 84 00:04:27,550 --> 00:04:29,960 different from capacity to manage property and that's 85 00:04:29,970 --> 00:04:32,550 different from capacity to make personal care decisions. 86 00:04:32,850 --> 00:04:35,940 Each test is different and it's context specific. 87 00:04:36,250 --> 00:04:39,500 So the questions are different, the relevant evidence is 88 00:04:39,570 --> 00:04:41,580 different. And I think that's a piece that 89 00:04:41,590 --> 00:04:46,500 I that I do often see. We really do have to bring the 90 00:04:46,510 --> 00:04:52,950 evidence that is relevant to the issue at hand and that meets the 91 00:04:52,960 --> 00:04:57,620 questions of the test that we're addressing in this circumstance. 92 00:04:57,630 --> 00:05:00,290 As lawyers, it's really important to be alert to the 93 00:05:00,300 --> 00:05:03,010 difference in this test and to understand that that difference 94 00:05:03,020 --> 00:05:05,670 really matters. Yeah, I think that's what I 95 00:05:05,680 --> 00:05:07,840 would say. The biggest thing that I would 96 00:05:07,910 --> 00:05:10,580 urge us all to always think about when we're coming forward 97 00:05:10,590 --> 00:05:14,670 with these proceedings is to think about the actual test for 98 00:05:14,680 --> 00:05:18,880 this circumstance, for this context, and ask yourself, are 99 00:05:18,890 --> 00:05:21,910 you bringing the evidence and is the evidence relevant to this 100 00:05:21,920 --> 00:05:24,470 particular test? Fantastic. 101 00:05:24,560 --> 00:05:28,750 So Ember, as we mentioned before and as you also did in your 102 00:05:28,760 --> 00:05:32,190 introduction, you've worked across the public sector for 103 00:05:32,240 --> 00:05:34,130 quite a significant part of your career. 104 00:05:34,240 --> 00:05:36,690 And I'd love to hear a little more about what was that 105 00:05:36,700 --> 00:05:40,030 experience like and maybe even what drew you to the public 106 00:05:40,040 --> 00:05:43,790 sector in the first place. So I've worked in like this sort 107 00:05:43,800 --> 00:05:46,810 of third sector in every way. Like long before I, I came to 108 00:05:46,820 --> 00:05:49,810 law, I did nonprofit project management. 109 00:05:49,820 --> 00:05:54,220 I, you know, I have worked in Canada, overseas in the States. 110 00:05:54,230 --> 00:05:56,180 I worked for universities, I worked for governments. 111 00:05:56,190 --> 00:05:58,710 That the common thread though, has always been that sort of 112 00:05:58,760 --> 00:06:03,590 third sector kind of approach when I think about what drew me 113 00:06:03,640 --> 00:06:07,040 to public service. So my sister this resource 114 00:06:07,050 --> 00:06:09,720 development and operations management in the nonprofit 115 00:06:09,730 --> 00:06:13,640 sector and I do this. Both of us agree that the 116 00:06:13,650 --> 00:06:16,020 biggest factor in our choice of career was probably our mom. 117 00:06:16,210 --> 00:06:18,730 She was a hippie. She was an activist. 118 00:06:18,740 --> 00:06:21,120 She was a community nurse. She would call it a street 119 00:06:21,130 --> 00:06:23,460 nurse. And it's really, it's really 120 00:06:23,470 --> 00:06:26,540 relevant to her story actually this year that she died of 51 121 00:06:26,550 --> 00:06:28,400 from the complications of addiction. 122 00:06:28,630 --> 00:06:32,320 She she was an uncommon woman with an absolutely fascinating 123 00:06:32,330 --> 00:06:34,280 story. She, you know, went from small 124 00:06:34,290 --> 00:06:38,040 town Ontario, traveled all over North America. 125 00:06:38,050 --> 00:06:40,300 We used to joke that she would sooner move than wash the 126 00:06:40,310 --> 00:06:42,260 dishes. You know, I went to 13 different 127 00:06:42,270 --> 00:06:45,780 schools from from kindergarten to grade 13 at the time. 128 00:06:45,790 --> 00:06:48,820 Actually, you know, we start the 13th grade here in Ontario and 129 00:06:48,830 --> 00:06:51,990 Ontario. So in any case, my mother never 130 00:06:52,000 --> 00:06:54,890 met a stranger and she had the like the deepest, most visceral 131 00:06:54,900 --> 00:06:58,650 compassion for everyone, but especially the marginalized. 132 00:06:58,740 --> 00:07:01,830 She would often bring people home because they needed a place 133 00:07:01,840 --> 00:07:05,030 to be or something to eat or a warm place to land for a bit. 134 00:07:05,040 --> 00:07:08,650 And yes, this was as unnerving to us as children as you imagine 135 00:07:08,660 --> 00:07:10,710 it might be. But she was always really 136 00:07:10,720 --> 00:07:14,090 motivated by by love, by respect. 137 00:07:14,320 --> 00:07:18,480 She saw peoples humanity in a way that capitalism would have 138 00:07:18,490 --> 00:07:20,890 us overlook. And so while neither one of my 139 00:07:20,900 --> 00:07:25,230 sister or I grew up to be as hands on as our mom, we really 140 00:07:25,240 --> 00:07:28,390 both took her message of not giving back. 141 00:07:28,460 --> 00:07:31,490 I don't think don't think that she would see it that way, but 142 00:07:31,500 --> 00:07:36,190 of sort of fully recognizing that you are an integral part of 143 00:07:36,200 --> 00:07:39,460 your neighbor's humanity and that we are all bound to one 144 00:07:39,470 --> 00:07:42,540 another. This is the number one message 145 00:07:42,590 --> 00:07:46,240 that my mother left with us. And if I'm honest, I do think 146 00:07:46,250 --> 00:07:49,020 this is probably what informs my career choices and hopefully my 147 00:07:49,030 --> 00:07:51,660 life choices. That's amazing. 148 00:07:51,740 --> 00:07:54,760 And, and thinking about this motivation and thinking about 149 00:07:54,770 --> 00:07:58,230 the career you chose as well. A lot of our listeners at this 150 00:07:58,240 --> 00:08:02,170 moment in the podcast, our young lawyers or law students still 151 00:08:02,180 --> 00:08:05,800 trying to choose which area of law they want to work in and 152 00:08:05,810 --> 00:08:07,930 still trying to figure out the whole thing. 153 00:08:08,000 --> 00:08:12,730 And it's always been interesting to me as the host to ask a few 154 00:08:12,740 --> 00:08:16,570 questions that I get asked when, you know, in events or when I'm 155 00:08:16,580 --> 00:08:19,610 talking to some of our listeners as well over, you know, 156 00:08:19,620 --> 00:08:22,650 messaging and all of that. And one of the things that I 157 00:08:22,660 --> 00:08:26,170 wanted to ask you today is, is what kinds of habits would you 158 00:08:26,180 --> 00:08:30,270 suggest for young lawyers who are starting up their careers 159 00:08:30,280 --> 00:08:34,390 and who are, you know, trying to develop really good habits to 160 00:08:34,460 --> 00:08:38,490 grow and to really find that satisfaction in the profession? 161 00:08:38,580 --> 00:08:41,289 What are a few things that that you would point out from your 162 00:08:41,299 --> 00:08:44,780 experience? You know, I have to say, 163 00:08:44,790 --> 00:08:47,720 Claudio, I feel like I'm not qualified to answer that because 164 00:08:47,730 --> 00:08:52,880 I was never a young lawyer. I was already like my, my 40th 165 00:08:52,890 --> 00:08:55,780 birthday was in Humira before I started law school. 166 00:08:55,830 --> 00:09:01,900 And I was always so amazed by my colleagues in school, the 167 00:09:01,910 --> 00:09:07,970 incredible discipline, the way that they were able to approach 168 00:09:08,020 --> 00:09:11,490 their work absolutely astonished me every time. 169 00:09:11,560 --> 00:09:14,190 I don't think I could have done it, to be completely honest. 170 00:09:14,240 --> 00:09:16,610 I don't think I could have been successful. 171 00:09:16,620 --> 00:09:20,170 I don't think I was ready at all for law school at their age, the 172 00:09:20,180 --> 00:09:23,190 way that my colleagues work. So first of all, I'm going to 173 00:09:23,200 --> 00:09:25,510 say I've, I've got no notes. I have no, no. 174 00:09:25,520 --> 00:09:28,150 So I'm, I'm very impressed. I was very impressed with my 175 00:09:28,160 --> 00:09:31,510 colleagues at law school. That said, I think for all of 176 00:09:31,520 --> 00:09:35,740 us, all of us as lawyers, no matter what age we are, when we 177 00:09:35,750 --> 00:09:42,320 start, we are hoping to be good at what we do, maybe even hoping 178 00:09:42,330 --> 00:09:47,930 to be excellent at what we do in moments and hopefully to enjoy 179 00:09:48,000 --> 00:09:50,130 and find some fulfillment in what we do. 180 00:09:50,140 --> 00:09:52,470 I, I'm not the type of person who thinks that life is your, 181 00:09:52,480 --> 00:09:55,510 that work is your be all and end all, that you spent a lot of 182 00:09:55,520 --> 00:09:59,210 time doing it to not enjoy it or get any fulfillment out of it. 183 00:09:59,220 --> 00:10:01,890 A lot of us spend more time at work, for example, than we do 184 00:10:01,900 --> 00:10:06,470 with our, with our families. So when I think about what 185 00:10:06,480 --> 00:10:10,160 habits I might suggest for, you know, sort of growing your 186 00:10:10,170 --> 00:10:15,450 skills and your judgment, I think the number one thing is to 187 00:10:15,460 --> 00:10:20,760 work on your emotional intelligence to as a friend of 188 00:10:20,770 --> 00:10:23,070 mine says, to always be working on your wisdom. 189 00:10:24,350 --> 00:10:26,780 It's good to be intelligent. It's good to be smart. 190 00:10:26,890 --> 00:10:31,100 It's good to be accomplished. Wisdom takes time and 191 00:10:31,110 --> 00:10:34,390 experience. Wisdom can't be purchased off 192 00:10:34,400 --> 00:10:36,540 the shelf. You really have to build that 193 00:10:36,590 --> 00:10:39,060 and hone that. And when I say wisdom, I'm 194 00:10:39,070 --> 00:10:44,410 talking about really being able to see the people in the story, 195 00:10:45,980 --> 00:10:49,430 to understand that almost no one is irrational. 196 00:10:50,630 --> 00:10:53,290 The thing that they're doing, the choices that they're making, 197 00:10:53,350 --> 00:10:55,780 are rational for them in their context. 198 00:10:56,820 --> 00:11:01,290 And as lawyers, maybe even hopefully one day judges, we are 199 00:11:01,300 --> 00:11:06,210 wise to be able to see that, to stand at just a little bit of a 200 00:11:06,220 --> 00:11:12,340 distance, to be able to look at the human beings in the story 201 00:11:12,690 --> 00:11:17,950 and their context and say, what's going on here, What makes 202 00:11:17,960 --> 00:11:22,740 sense here? How did we get here and what is 203 00:11:22,830 --> 00:11:27,250 the fairest and most reasonable way to get to resolution? 204 00:11:28,100 --> 00:11:31,080 I think everything else will learn, will know, you know, yes, 205 00:11:31,090 --> 00:11:34,050 you should study the laws. You should understand the laws. 206 00:11:34,060 --> 00:11:35,960 You should have good work habits. 207 00:11:35,970 --> 00:11:38,730 You should figure out how to manage your time, all of these 208 00:11:38,740 --> 00:11:39,950 things. Of course you should. 209 00:11:40,380 --> 00:11:43,450 But honestly, if I think about it, the biggest thing is to 210 00:11:43,460 --> 00:11:46,420 understand that this wasn't that. 211 00:11:46,430 --> 00:11:48,380 I can think about this as a human profession. 212 00:11:48,390 --> 00:11:50,640 This is about the conflict between human beings. 213 00:11:50,650 --> 00:11:54,660 So you must, you must, you must develop that emotional 214 00:11:54,670 --> 00:11:56,890 intelligence. You must, You must. 215 00:11:56,900 --> 00:12:01,210 You must develop your wisdom. That was quite unique. 216 00:12:01,220 --> 00:12:02,970 I really appreciate you mentioning that. 217 00:12:02,980 --> 00:12:05,510 And I think that, yeah, that that's something that I want to 218 00:12:05,520 --> 00:12:08,110 write down and take to heart. I love that. 219 00:12:08,120 --> 00:12:11,080 Working on your wisdom, I don't think many people have used 220 00:12:11,150 --> 00:12:14,510 those words before. So it's I'm very glad that I get 221 00:12:14,520 --> 00:12:17,710 to interview you and to hear your advice. 222 00:12:17,720 --> 00:12:21,160 And then you you also mentioned about having a career before 223 00:12:21,170 --> 00:12:24,350 law. So that that is that is a think 224 00:12:24,360 --> 00:12:27,600 a case that people are still looking for information. 225 00:12:27,920 --> 00:12:32,130 And I feel like what I try to do with the podcast is to have, you 226 00:12:32,140 --> 00:12:35,740 know, a place for you to do for you to get a little bit of 227 00:12:35,750 --> 00:12:38,590 information to make informed decisions, be it on the 228 00:12:38,600 --> 00:12:42,800 recruitment process beyond the career choices you make as a 229 00:12:42,810 --> 00:12:46,840 lawyer, but not only as young lawyers, but also as people who, 230 00:12:46,850 --> 00:12:50,700 you know, change careers. So I was curious to know from 231 00:12:50,710 --> 00:12:55,120 from your experience maybe are there are a few things that you 232 00:12:55,190 --> 00:12:58,030 would like to tell people who are looking into a career change 233 00:12:58,040 --> 00:13:01,270 and maybe considering law for that they should know before 234 00:13:01,280 --> 00:13:05,530 they're apply And even how how you see your prior industry 235 00:13:05,540 --> 00:13:08,530 experiencing becoming a strength in this field? 236 00:13:09,190 --> 00:13:12,900 Yeah, that's really interesting. I mean, everybody's got their 237 00:13:12,910 --> 00:13:14,660 own path, right? So I can't say that, you know, 238 00:13:14,670 --> 00:13:17,640 what worked for me makes sense for for other people. 239 00:13:17,890 --> 00:13:21,040 I'll share a little bit of what happened to me, a little bit of 240 00:13:21,050 --> 00:13:24,320 the choices that I made in the hopes that it might be useful 241 00:13:24,330 --> 00:13:28,080 for for someone else. So, you know, at 42 years old, 242 00:13:28,090 --> 00:13:30,720 and I know people can't see me, but this is relevant. 243 00:13:30,730 --> 00:13:34,260 A 42 year old woman of colour, I found myself sitting, you know, 244 00:13:34,270 --> 00:13:38,540 in the first year class at U of T Law and, and how did I get 245 00:13:38,550 --> 00:13:41,090 there? And a 42 year old woman of 246 00:13:41,100 --> 00:13:43,320 colour who was raised in chaos and poverty, I should probably 247 00:13:43,330 --> 00:13:46,260 say as well. So it was interesting. 248 00:13:46,270 --> 00:13:50,670 Brief Notes Grew up in a really chaotic sort of household, and 249 00:13:50,680 --> 00:13:53,520 you know it. Also, you know, I love my 250 00:13:53,530 --> 00:13:54,540 mother. She was wonderful. 251 00:13:54,550 --> 00:13:57,100 She was incredibly uncommon woman, but we had a very 252 00:13:57,110 --> 00:14:02,130 uncommon upbringing. Dropped out of high school. 253 00:14:02,300 --> 00:14:05,960 I married somebody I'd known for six weeks when I was 18. 254 00:14:06,020 --> 00:14:08,550 I had three children one after the other. 255 00:14:08,620 --> 00:14:13,050 I was divorced by the time I was 29. 256 00:14:13,140 --> 00:14:16,070 I was a single parent for 10 years. 257 00:14:16,120 --> 00:14:19,950 In that time. I decided to try to get myself a 258 00:14:19,960 --> 00:14:23,690 university education. I was living in Windsor at the 259 00:14:23,700 --> 00:14:27,090 time and you know, big shout out and props to Windsor. 260 00:14:27,160 --> 00:14:30,030 The town itself was very affordable at the time. 261 00:14:30,040 --> 00:14:33,480 So I could, you know, work at Starbucks and wedding banquets 262 00:14:33,490 --> 00:14:36,790 and halls and stuff like that part time to put myself through 263 00:14:36,800 --> 00:14:39,230 school while also sort of trying to continue to feed these 264 00:14:39,240 --> 00:14:42,710 children who have children have an increasing insistence upon 265 00:14:42,720 --> 00:14:45,240 eating every single day, sometimes several times a day. 266 00:14:45,330 --> 00:14:50,520 It, it, it can really expensive. You know, I had part time work 267 00:14:50,530 --> 00:14:52,090 to do that. I mean, I've been working before 268 00:14:52,100 --> 00:14:54,920 that, I should say I had a, I had built myself a, a nice 269 00:14:54,930 --> 00:14:57,760 little career in nonprofit project management. 270 00:14:57,770 --> 00:15:01,120 So I worked for, you know, small International Development 271 00:15:01,130 --> 00:15:06,380 agencies in, in Canada. I worked for a university in the 272 00:15:06,390 --> 00:15:10,280 state doing in the state, sorry, in, in, in Detroit doing 273 00:15:11,170 --> 00:15:13,920 managing a project that had to do with barriers to care for 274 00:15:13,930 --> 00:15:16,030 people of colour living with HIV. 275 00:15:16,070 --> 00:15:18,880 So, you know, I had lots of interesting experiences. 276 00:15:18,950 --> 00:15:21,680 I went and I lived overseas for quite some time. 277 00:15:21,770 --> 00:15:23,100 When I separated, I took the children. 278 00:15:23,110 --> 00:15:26,810 We went and looked in Cairo for awhile, which is a story for 279 00:15:26,820 --> 00:15:30,380 another day. And when I came back, I was 280 00:15:30,390 --> 00:15:32,710 working, as I said, for that university in the States. 281 00:15:32,720 --> 00:15:36,130 I decided that I wanted to go to university and I did sort of 282 00:15:36,140 --> 00:15:39,190 worked part time and, you know, got through that. 283 00:15:39,200 --> 00:15:45,050 I did well and I enjoyed it. I then went and worked for an 284 00:15:45,060 --> 00:15:49,390 international law organization in Egypt doing sort of project 285 00:15:49,400 --> 00:15:52,620 management. Again, I realize working with 286 00:15:52,630 --> 00:15:54,750 those lawyers that I wanted to be a lawyer. 287 00:15:54,760 --> 00:15:57,830 I wanted to be part of that conversation, but financially it 288 00:15:57,840 --> 00:16:01,210 didn't seem to make a lot of sense to to me, you know, a 289 00:16:01,220 --> 00:16:05,690 legal education is not as financially as accessible as as 290 00:16:05,700 --> 00:16:08,110 we might hope it could be. I eventually came back from 291 00:16:08,120 --> 00:16:10,610 there. I was working for the city of 292 00:16:10,620 --> 00:16:14,430 Toronto on a homelessness grant. It was really, really 293 00:16:14,440 --> 00:16:17,070 interesting. We were dealing with street 294 00:16:17,460 --> 00:16:21,150 people who were St. homeless and all of this sort of it really 295 00:16:21,160 --> 00:16:24,690 highlighted for me the social marginalization that is a part 296 00:16:24,700 --> 00:16:26,420 of that. And very often again, we have 297 00:16:26,430 --> 00:16:31,720 this sort of common thread of how the law could work for or, 298 00:16:31,730 --> 00:16:34,580 you know, very often against people in that circumstance. 299 00:16:35,380 --> 00:16:38,160 Wait. At a certain point, I actually 300 00:16:38,210 --> 00:16:42,000 got married again. And that made it possible at the 301 00:16:42,010 --> 00:16:45,020 moment to think about going to to law school. 302 00:16:45,030 --> 00:16:48,380 My now husband had graduated from UFT. 303 00:16:48,710 --> 00:16:51,860 He was a big, you know, sort of supporter that I should go. 304 00:16:52,150 --> 00:16:55,540 We got married. We went on a three-week 305 00:16:55,590 --> 00:16:58,420 honeymoon. And when we came back, I was as 306 00:16:58,430 --> 00:17:01,390 dissatisfied with my job as I had been before I left. 307 00:17:01,650 --> 00:17:06,300 And so I, you know, made the decision to take the LSAT, see 308 00:17:06,310 --> 00:17:07,680 if I could apply to go to school. 309 00:17:07,690 --> 00:17:13,119 I applied to University of Windsor Law, Osgood Hall at York 310 00:17:13,230 --> 00:17:15,339 and U of T Windsor didn't accept me. 311 00:17:15,349 --> 00:17:16,839 And I'm still sad and bitter about it. 312 00:17:16,849 --> 00:17:20,760 And Osgood accepted me and I was very happy about that. 313 00:17:20,880 --> 00:17:24,770 And a few weeks later, at the beginning of January, I got a 314 00:17:24,780 --> 00:17:27,569 call from UFT. Wasn't it wasn't my first 315 00:17:27,579 --> 00:17:29,530 choice. My partner really encouraged me 316 00:17:29,540 --> 00:17:31,040 to do it. To be honest, I didn't feel like 317 00:17:31,050 --> 00:17:33,150 I would feel in place or welcome. 318 00:17:33,160 --> 00:17:35,910 I was wrong about that. But my main reason for accepting 319 00:17:35,920 --> 00:17:39,670 at UFT is because at the time, my, my teenage son was dealing 320 00:17:39,680 --> 00:17:42,710 with some fairly major health issues. 321 00:17:42,720 --> 00:17:45,890 And I often would have to go and, you know, deal with 322 00:17:46,120 --> 00:17:48,670 doctor's appointments or emergency things at that time. 323 00:17:48,740 --> 00:17:51,910 And so it occurred to me that if I was going to FT, I'd be right 324 00:17:51,920 --> 00:17:54,010 downtown where we lived and I wouldn't have to miss a whole 325 00:17:54,020 --> 00:17:56,410 day of school in order to take my son to the doctor. 326 00:17:56,420 --> 00:17:59,130 So there we go. That's, you know, and So what am 327 00:17:59,140 --> 00:18:02,670 I saying with all of that? It's the twists and the turns. 328 00:18:02,860 --> 00:18:05,260 I've had three or four different careers. 329 00:18:05,270 --> 00:18:07,340 They've all been very interesting, they've all been 330 00:18:07,350 --> 00:18:11,370 very rewarding. And even though I was coming 331 00:18:11,380 --> 00:18:17,290 from a position of poverty and scarcity, I feel really 332 00:18:17,340 --> 00:18:23,150 fortunate that I was. I've always been willing to to 333 00:18:23,160 --> 00:18:26,110 take that chance to try something different. 334 00:18:26,120 --> 00:18:30,010 I've always been willing to go ahead and see what's around the 335 00:18:30,020 --> 00:18:32,770 next bend. I'm not saying everybody can do 336 00:18:32,780 --> 00:18:34,300 it. I'm not saying everybody should 337 00:18:34,310 --> 00:18:36,470 do it. I'm saying if you're out there 338 00:18:36,620 --> 00:18:40,630 and you're listening to me and you're wondering should I go 339 00:18:40,640 --> 00:18:43,950 ahead and take that chance? All I can tell you is that I 340 00:18:43,960 --> 00:18:46,890 did. I have every single time and 341 00:18:46,900 --> 00:18:48,410 every single time it's been worth it. 342 00:18:48,580 --> 00:18:50,890 I have no regrets. So I think that that's, that's 343 00:18:50,900 --> 00:18:53,130 what I say. I can't say what's best for you. 344 00:18:53,140 --> 00:18:56,160 I can only tell you what has worked for me. 345 00:18:56,170 --> 00:18:58,710 And if you're listening to me out there someplace and you can 346 00:18:58,720 --> 00:19:01,170 hear me, you can find me on LinkedIn, you can find me 347 00:19:01,180 --> 00:19:04,130 whatever. Reach out, call me, send a DM, 348 00:19:04,140 --> 00:19:07,980 say I'm not sure if I should take this leap and, and I will 349 00:19:07,990 --> 00:19:09,820 tell you, yes, yes, you should. Go ahead. 350 00:19:09,870 --> 00:19:13,480 Life is short and you should you should live every minute of it 351 00:19:13,490 --> 00:19:16,380 until you're done. That's amazing. 352 00:19:16,390 --> 00:19:19,520 I really appreciate you saying that and I'm sure it will be a 353 00:19:19,530 --> 00:19:23,050 great motivation for many, many of us listening to this episode 354 00:19:23,060 --> 00:19:26,500 going from these really motivational high, you know, way 355 00:19:26,850 --> 00:19:29,400 of the episode. I also wanted to come into 356 00:19:29,410 --> 00:19:32,540 another topic, right. So so you did mention that civil 357 00:19:32,550 --> 00:19:34,790 litigation is one of the things you approached. 358 00:19:34,800 --> 00:19:37,380 And then we talked a little bit about, you know, being a 359 00:19:37,390 --> 00:19:40,980 reasonable and trying to find really a good path to solve 360 00:19:40,990 --> 00:19:43,120 conflict. But I understand you've led and 361 00:19:43,130 --> 00:19:46,790 and help with, you know, decisions of cases that were 362 00:19:46,800 --> 00:19:49,220 really, you know, high stress settings. 363 00:19:49,230 --> 00:19:53,660 And as we have been talking in a way throughout this podcast, we 364 00:19:53,670 --> 00:19:56,040 as lawyers are are a whole human being, right? 365 00:19:56,050 --> 00:19:58,940 So even though we love to think about the idea of, you know, 366 00:19:58,950 --> 00:20:02,980 have your professional self and your personal self, we are one 367 00:20:02,990 --> 00:20:05,840 whole being. I wanted to ask you kind of like 368 00:20:05,850 --> 00:20:09,990 in this, in this personal sense, then what practices maybe help 369 00:20:10,000 --> 00:20:13,100 you, you know, with these managing the stress, you know, 370 00:20:13,110 --> 00:20:17,180 being able to keep empathy even though going through, you know, 371 00:20:17,190 --> 00:20:20,540 a big volume of cases that sometimes might might seem like 372 00:20:20,550 --> 00:20:23,970 numbers and and even avoiding burnout. 373 00:20:24,110 --> 00:20:26,770 Wow, that is an excellent, excellent question class. 374 00:20:26,780 --> 00:20:29,800 It's so important to think, to think through this. 375 00:20:30,920 --> 00:20:34,870 So I think what I wanted to do is, is share a little anecdote. 376 00:20:34,880 --> 00:20:39,010 When I was an articling student, I was reading a file, Whatever, 377 00:20:39,020 --> 00:20:41,850 I'll spare you the details, but there was something in those 378 00:20:41,860 --> 00:20:45,090 facts as I was reading was I was just deep into it. 379 00:20:45,100 --> 00:20:47,880 I was sitting in the office in that sort of cubicle, that 380 00:20:47,890 --> 00:20:50,710 articling student pod that articling students have. 381 00:20:51,080 --> 00:20:54,210 And I could hear suddenly I realized in the distance I could 382 00:20:54,220 --> 00:20:58,310 hear sobbing, like gut wrenching sobbing, just thinking, Oh my 383 00:20:58,320 --> 00:21:01,470 God, like I thought it did, you know, started in the back of my 384 00:21:01,480 --> 00:21:03,140 mind. I could hear it, hear it, could 385 00:21:03,150 --> 00:21:04,760 hear it louder. I thought, Oh my gosh, who's 386 00:21:04,770 --> 00:21:06,890 crying? And I'm not exaggerating when I 387 00:21:06,900 --> 00:21:09,470 tell you it was me. I hadn't even realized it was 388 00:21:09,480 --> 00:21:11,670 me. And I was sobbing that deeply. 389 00:21:11,720 --> 00:21:14,470 One of my there were four of us who were articling. 390 00:21:14,710 --> 00:21:18,360 All of us were women all and this is the time of in person. 391 00:21:18,370 --> 00:21:21,320 So everybody was there. They really stood up and wrapped 392 00:21:21,330 --> 00:21:23,360 around me. One of them was a trained social 393 00:21:23,370 --> 00:21:26,480 worker. She came, she sort of stood me 394 00:21:26,490 --> 00:21:27,980 up. She picked up my sweater off the 395 00:21:27,990 --> 00:21:29,860 back of the chair. She wrapped it around my 396 00:21:29,870 --> 00:21:32,980 shoulders. She's walked me down into the 397 00:21:32,990 --> 00:21:35,010 elevator. We went down, we walked around 398 00:21:35,020 --> 00:21:38,670 the corner and she just walked with me and held space for me 399 00:21:39,460 --> 00:21:43,990 until the emotion passed. That woman is still a councillor 400 00:21:44,000 --> 00:21:46,360 at the Office of the Public Guardian and trustee today. 401 00:21:46,370 --> 00:21:48,560 And she, you know, I, I still have so much respect for her. 402 00:21:49,790 --> 00:21:54,960 So what I'm saying is what I took from that moment is how 403 00:21:54,970 --> 00:21:59,150 important it is, as you've said, to fully recognize that we are 404 00:21:59,160 --> 00:22:02,440 whole human beings. You don't ever want to be the 405 00:22:02,450 --> 00:22:07,720 person who witnesses some somebody's team deep trauma and 406 00:22:07,730 --> 00:22:12,140 pain and not have that effect. If that's where you're at, 407 00:22:12,890 --> 00:22:16,090 you're not OK and you shouldn't be doing this job. 408 00:22:16,390 --> 00:22:19,440 I'm just saying that flat out, we are whole human beings. 409 00:22:19,450 --> 00:22:22,240 We are going to experience a range of emotions. 410 00:22:22,530 --> 00:22:25,060 What do you do with that? I think it's so important to 411 00:22:25,070 --> 00:22:30,060 acknowledge that sometimes it's going to hurt to see it, to 412 00:22:30,070 --> 00:22:33,050 allow yourself to feel it so that you can process. 413 00:22:33,720 --> 00:22:38,230 I think that piece is important and it remains important for me. 414 00:22:38,280 --> 00:22:42,370 So I would say nearly 10 years down the road, what do I do with 415 00:22:42,380 --> 00:22:45,210 that today? Over time, I've come to 416 00:22:45,220 --> 00:22:47,170 understand what my personal triggers are. 417 00:22:48,400 --> 00:22:54,340 I now know what type of facts are likely to really push those 418 00:22:54,350 --> 00:22:55,050 buttons. For me. 419 00:22:56,110 --> 00:22:59,280 Sometimes that means letting that file go and give it to 420 00:22:59,290 --> 00:23:03,520 somebody else. Sometimes it means, OK, I know 421 00:23:03,530 --> 00:23:06,180 that I can't pass it on to somebody else. 422 00:23:06,190 --> 00:23:09,880 I know that I'm going to have to deal with it, but then I, I, 423 00:23:09,950 --> 00:23:14,720 I've learned to leave space for myself to say, OK, do what you 424 00:23:14,730 --> 00:23:16,920 need to do. Get the love and support that 425 00:23:16,930 --> 00:23:20,530 you need in preparation. Go through it, do the work. 426 00:23:20,600 --> 00:23:23,790 And that piece, that piece of emotion that's there in the back 427 00:23:23,800 --> 00:23:28,180 of my mind, I'm able to say, hold on my love, let me do what 428 00:23:28,190 --> 00:23:30,380 I need to do and I will be back for you. 429 00:23:31,570 --> 00:23:35,470 And I do, I honor that and I respect that, you know, and I 430 00:23:35,480 --> 00:23:37,700 give myself space for that afterwards. 431 00:23:37,710 --> 00:23:40,490 And so I'm, I'm not here to tell you that, no, it's not going to, 432 00:23:40,500 --> 00:23:42,190 you know, I'm not going to cry. I'm not going to be upset. 433 00:23:42,200 --> 00:23:44,730 I'm going to, you know, compartmentalize my emotions. 434 00:23:44,740 --> 00:23:47,030 And that's how you're efficient. I, I just think that that's 435 00:23:47,040 --> 00:23:48,330 garbage. I just don't think that it's 436 00:23:48,340 --> 00:23:51,050 true. I think that it's so important, 437 00:23:51,120 --> 00:23:55,830 as I said, to see it, feel it, recognize it, as you've said, to 438 00:23:55,840 --> 00:23:59,740 recognize that I'm a whole human being and to make space for, for 439 00:23:59,750 --> 00:24:01,530 that. I would say, you know, 440 00:24:01,540 --> 00:24:05,760 everybody's got their, their, you know, their Wellness things. 441 00:24:05,770 --> 00:24:10,800 I guess a few years ago, I, I was traveling, I'd done yoga 442 00:24:10,810 --> 00:24:14,060 lots of times before, but I've never tried yin yoga, which is a 443 00:24:14,270 --> 00:24:19,080 more internal kind of thing. Popped into a class And for me, 444 00:24:19,130 --> 00:24:23,000 it was really transformational. It, it had a huge impact on my 445 00:24:23,010 --> 00:24:28,440 ability to guess, learn to sit quietly with myself, to allow 446 00:24:28,450 --> 00:24:32,000 things to pass without holding on to them. 447 00:24:32,050 --> 00:24:34,680 And I, and I've just really been able to, to use that and develop 448 00:24:34,690 --> 00:24:36,060 that as a tool for myself as well. 449 00:24:36,070 --> 00:24:38,920 And after a couple years of practice, I actually went last 450 00:24:38,930 --> 00:24:43,370 year, I spent some time over in Egypt and in the Sinai 451 00:24:43,380 --> 00:24:44,950 Peninsula. It was beautiful, it was 452 00:24:44,960 --> 00:24:48,650 restful, it was peaceful. And I did a training to qualify 453 00:24:48,660 --> 00:24:50,430 to be a yin yoga instructor myself. 454 00:24:50,440 --> 00:24:54,270 So I continue to to do that. I continue to learn, I continue 455 00:24:54,280 --> 00:24:55,910 to practice, I continue to teach. 456 00:24:55,920 --> 00:24:58,620 And I just think it's if you've got the space and you know, I've 457 00:24:58,630 --> 00:25:01,580 got many children in and out cold dogs. 458 00:25:01,590 --> 00:25:04,430 I don't have a lot of time or space, but I still feel it's 459 00:25:04,440 --> 00:25:06,790 important to carve out some space for me in the space that I 460 00:25:06,800 --> 00:25:09,910 carve out for me is, is in that, that teaching in that practice. 461 00:25:09,920 --> 00:25:12,060 So I guess those are the two things that I would that I would 462 00:25:12,070 --> 00:25:13,970 offer. Again, they work for me. 463 00:25:14,010 --> 00:25:15,250 I don't know if they work for everybody. 464 00:25:15,970 --> 00:25:19,740 I love that I feel like getting the chance, you just hear from 465 00:25:19,750 --> 00:25:23,220 other people's experience can definitely informs in future 466 00:25:23,230 --> 00:25:26,260 decisions. So it's always, I feel like it's 467 00:25:26,270 --> 00:25:29,660 always helpful and I appreciate you being so open about that. 468 00:25:29,670 --> 00:25:33,960 Now, if I were to ask you about, you know, looking back into your 469 00:25:33,970 --> 00:25:38,640 story and your career, I'm wondering is there one or or a 470 00:25:38,650 --> 00:25:42,120 few specific points that you could point out as, you know, 471 00:25:42,130 --> 00:25:45,430 turning points that shaped your career, that shaped your path? 472 00:25:46,090 --> 00:25:49,160 And then maybe what are some things that you've learned from 473 00:25:49,170 --> 00:25:53,320 it and that maybe continue to inform your legal practice 474 00:25:53,330 --> 00:25:55,920 today? I think about turning point. 475 00:25:55,930 --> 00:25:59,380 No thing that really sticks with me is that in the second year of 476 00:25:59,390 --> 00:26:02,020 law school, I did not like the first year of law school, did 477 00:26:02,030 --> 00:26:04,590 not enjoy it was completely ready to quit and then I did 478 00:26:04,600 --> 00:26:06,300 this like I really, really didn't like it. 479 00:26:06,310 --> 00:26:08,340 The only reason I didn't quit is because I was embarrassed. 480 00:26:08,350 --> 00:26:11,620 Only reason, only reason I felt like we paid the money and 481 00:26:11,630 --> 00:26:13,800 everybody knew that I was going to law school and how was I 482 00:26:13,810 --> 00:26:15,760 going to tell them that I put that that was really the only 483 00:26:15,770 --> 00:26:18,350 reason I didn't quit. I had managed to get a summer 484 00:26:18,360 --> 00:26:22,360 job at our school's legal clinic, which is called downtown 485 00:26:22,490 --> 00:26:25,960 DLS, Downtown legal services. That is one piece that I would 486 00:26:25,970 --> 00:26:31,150 say really change my path. It is only because I did the DLS 487 00:26:31,160 --> 00:26:34,550 clinic as a case worker in the summer after my first year of 488 00:26:34,560 --> 00:26:38,110 law school that it wasn't only that it wasn't my first and last 489 00:26:38,120 --> 00:26:40,610 year of law school. The only reason that I continued 490 00:26:40,620 --> 00:26:43,910 to go back in September was was because of that experience 491 00:26:43,920 --> 00:26:46,810 there. It felt very practical and real 492 00:26:46,820 --> 00:26:49,850 and hands on. It felt that the things that I 493 00:26:49,860 --> 00:26:53,890 had to bring to the table had some value in that. 494 00:26:53,960 --> 00:26:56,950 In that context, I felt that I could be useful. 495 00:26:57,020 --> 00:27:01,290 And then after that, that fall, actually, my old career called 496 00:27:01,300 --> 00:27:03,710 me. A colleague tapped me to ask me 497 00:27:03,720 --> 00:27:08,510 to come and help run a project for the United Nations 498 00:27:08,520 --> 00:27:13,720 Development Program in Libya. So the, the initial sort of 499 00:27:13,730 --> 00:27:16,700 revolution had, you know, the fighting had largely settled 500 00:27:16,710 --> 00:27:21,220 down and judiciary, judiciary had reached out to look for some 501 00:27:21,290 --> 00:27:24,200 assistance and support as they were sort of restructuring 502 00:27:24,210 --> 00:27:27,270 themselves. I've done some judicial 503 00:27:27,530 --> 00:27:30,400 management and support in Egypt before. 504 00:27:30,410 --> 00:27:32,860 So a colleague had called me and asked me to come to Libya and do 505 00:27:32,870 --> 00:27:35,420 that work. So I was there for a bit. 506 00:27:35,430 --> 00:27:39,920 I ended up having to miss the second semester of year 2 law 507 00:27:39,930 --> 00:27:42,120 school. And as we know here, like a law 508 00:27:42,130 --> 00:27:44,320 school is not like courses that you can pick up here and there. 509 00:27:44,330 --> 00:27:46,760 You have to like do it in its in its in its pieces. 510 00:27:46,830 --> 00:27:50,440 So since I've missed that second semester, I came back like 3/4 511 00:27:50,450 --> 00:27:53,060 of the way through this semester and time on my hands. 512 00:27:53,070 --> 00:27:55,650 I didn't have something to do, and I don't even know how it 513 00:27:55,660 --> 00:27:57,730 came up, but I learned about this. 514 00:27:57,800 --> 00:28:02,090 Osgood's continuing professional development program had this 515 00:28:02,740 --> 00:28:04,430 certificate in mental health law. 516 00:28:04,480 --> 00:28:07,150 So it was like several different modules that went on over 517 00:28:07,160 --> 00:28:09,130 several different weeks. It was, you know, give me 518 00:28:09,140 --> 00:28:13,000 something to do. So I went and in one of the 519 00:28:13,010 --> 00:28:18,210 modules, a woman stood up to speak and she was a lawyer with 520 00:28:18,220 --> 00:28:20,010 the Office of the Public Guardian and Trustee. 521 00:28:20,020 --> 00:28:22,370 And she was talking about things that I had never even 522 00:28:22,380 --> 00:28:25,250 considered. My mind was blown when she was 523 00:28:25,260 --> 00:28:27,370 talking about sort of property rights. 524 00:28:27,380 --> 00:28:31,230 And I, you know, I really began to see and because she explained 525 00:28:31,240 --> 00:28:34,910 it so well, really for one thing, the importance of money, 526 00:28:35,200 --> 00:28:37,730 you know, when, when, when you're living with the, with the 527 00:28:37,740 --> 00:28:40,590 disability, poverty often comes with it, you know, 528 00:28:40,600 --> 00:28:44,510 unfortunately. And the work that was being done 529 00:28:44,560 --> 00:28:50,370 at the PGT helps protect those rights, whether it is an 530 00:28:50,380 --> 00:28:54,810 interest in an estate, whether it's having a, the household 531 00:28:54,820 --> 00:28:57,250 and, and getting the money for it, whether it's, you know, 532 00:28:57,260 --> 00:29:00,600 qualifying for OSP or other sort of entitlement programs. 533 00:29:01,280 --> 00:29:04,810 At the end of the day, getting somebody the money that they 534 00:29:04,820 --> 00:29:08,570 need to be that is that they have a right to, to be able to, 535 00:29:08,880 --> 00:29:10,910 you know, improve their quality of life. 536 00:29:10,960 --> 00:29:12,850 It really touched me. It hit me hard. 537 00:29:12,860 --> 00:29:17,410 And I knew for sure that that's where I wanted to do my, my 538 00:29:17,420 --> 00:29:20,170 summer, my, my, my year 2 summer. 539 00:29:20,250 --> 00:29:22,210 And hopefully where I wanted to article. 540 00:29:22,220 --> 00:29:24,970 So when it came time to doing, oh, I should point out that that 541 00:29:24,980 --> 00:29:27,930 lawyer, by the way, is today the actual public guardian and 542 00:29:27,940 --> 00:29:29,750 trustee, her name is Sydney Peterson. 543 00:29:29,760 --> 00:29:32,630 She's absolutely amazing. So in any case, I, I knew that 544 00:29:32,640 --> 00:29:36,170 this is what you know, lol. I had no interest in anything. 545 00:29:36,220 --> 00:29:38,430 I just wanted the PGT. That's all I want. 546 00:29:38,440 --> 00:29:42,040 I studied for it like it was an exam that doing the resume and 547 00:29:42,050 --> 00:29:45,540 then getting the interview. So I would say that that 548 00:29:45,550 --> 00:29:49,030 probably was was a pivotal point learning even about this area of 549 00:29:49,040 --> 00:29:51,630 the law and through Sidney Peters, learning about the 550 00:29:51,640 --> 00:29:53,120 public guardian trustee and what it would do. 551 00:29:53,190 --> 00:29:56,280 And again, like the, the work is there in in many other places, 552 00:29:56,290 --> 00:29:59,020 not only the PGT that's doing the work, although I certainly 553 00:29:59,030 --> 00:30:01,920 love the way that they do it. But just just the idea that 554 00:30:01,930 --> 00:30:04,020 there was this sort of, as I said, the intersection of 555 00:30:04,030 --> 00:30:07,890 psychosocial disability and civil litigation or property 556 00:30:07,900 --> 00:30:09,620 rights. That was a real turning point 557 00:30:09,630 --> 00:30:11,220 for me. Learning that it existed in his 558 00:30:11,230 --> 00:30:12,860 really informed what I've done ever since. 559 00:30:13,390 --> 00:30:15,220 That's fantastic. What a story. 560 00:30:15,230 --> 00:30:17,950 Thank you for sharing that wrap up today's episode. 561 00:30:17,960 --> 00:30:21,960 Like, why don't you ask you? How do you find joy and purpose 562 00:30:21,970 --> 00:30:25,060 in the profession today? And maybe even what small 563 00:30:25,070 --> 00:30:28,960 choices can lawyers make each week to keep that sense of 564 00:30:28,970 --> 00:30:33,770 meaning alive? I mean, I find joy and purpose 565 00:30:33,780 --> 00:30:36,050 because I find the word joyful that has a purpose. 566 00:30:36,060 --> 00:30:38,650 You know, I'm not, I'm not doing stuff that I don't think is 567 00:30:38,660 --> 00:30:41,850 interesting or, or valuable or has meaning. 568 00:30:41,940 --> 00:30:45,990 And look, I know a lot of us do. A lot of us, a lot of us feel 569 00:30:46,000 --> 00:30:48,830 the pressure to do a job that doesn't feel like that. 570 00:30:48,920 --> 00:30:50,670 And I've been there. And I understand that. 571 00:30:50,680 --> 00:30:53,230 Believe me. Working at a banquet hall in 572 00:30:53,240 --> 00:30:55,390 Detroit to put myself through law school did not have a lot of 573 00:30:55,400 --> 00:30:56,680 joy or meaning. I'm sorry. 574 00:30:56,690 --> 00:30:58,620 To put myself through undergrad didn't have a lot of joy or 575 00:30:58,630 --> 00:30:59,910 meaning. But you know, you do what you 576 00:30:59,920 --> 00:31:04,320 have to do. But if you have found yourself 577 00:31:04,370 --> 00:31:09,880 in a position of a certain degree of privilege that truly 578 00:31:09,950 --> 00:31:15,270 being able to practice as a lawyer is that it's important to 579 00:31:15,280 --> 00:31:19,650 maybe not accept the blinders that sometimes the profession 580 00:31:19,660 --> 00:31:21,130 might have. You think, you know, there there 581 00:31:21,140 --> 00:31:23,120 is a little bit of the culture that says, you know, there's 582 00:31:23,130 --> 00:31:26,110 only one way to do it, right? And if you know, if you don't, 583 00:31:26,120 --> 00:31:30,330 if you're not, you know, I don't know, full service Bay St. firm. 584 00:31:30,340 --> 00:31:32,310 And I know lots of people who are working there and love it. 585 00:31:32,320 --> 00:31:33,540 They're great people and great lawyers. 586 00:31:33,550 --> 00:31:35,710 Please don't get me wrong. But it's not for everybody. 587 00:31:35,720 --> 00:31:39,940 And the idea that there's only one path, it's, it's just not 588 00:31:40,100 --> 00:31:42,480 true. So, you know, I would say, how 589 00:31:42,490 --> 00:31:46,330 do I find purpose and joy? Because I do something that I 590 00:31:46,340 --> 00:31:48,590 find purposeful that brings me joy. 591 00:31:48,670 --> 00:31:52,870 And I have made the choices and sacrifices to put myself in that 592 00:31:52,880 --> 00:31:54,430 position. So there's that. 593 00:31:55,610 --> 00:31:57,110 What are the things that you can do? 594 00:31:57,120 --> 00:31:59,530 Or to feel that you're sort of keeping that sense of meaning 595 00:31:59,540 --> 00:32:01,810 alive. Look, more than anything else, 596 00:32:01,820 --> 00:32:07,280 one of the most amazing things about being a lawyer is that you 597 00:32:07,290 --> 00:32:13,680 are paid for and expected to provide your independent advice. 598 00:32:14,980 --> 00:32:19,470 It is your brain, you know you you have to exercise your 599 00:32:19,480 --> 00:32:21,830 judgment. At the end of the day, the buck 600 00:32:21,840 --> 00:32:26,330 stops with you for that reason. If you don't approach it that 601 00:32:26,340 --> 00:32:28,890 way, you're probably going to be unhappy. 602 00:32:29,580 --> 00:32:31,430 You must. You must. 603 00:32:31,480 --> 00:32:37,880 You must, as a lawyer, develop your own independent judgment 604 00:32:37,930 --> 00:32:40,250 and voice. I'll say it again. 605 00:32:40,760 --> 00:32:45,510 You must develop your independent judgment and voice 606 00:32:45,560 --> 00:32:48,780 and start early. Find a practice that makes sense 607 00:32:48,790 --> 00:32:52,860 to you, that has meaning for you, in a place that makes sense 608 00:32:52,870 --> 00:32:57,020 for you. When you do that, you'll be able 609 00:32:57,070 --> 00:33:02,570 to pour yourself into it in a way that allows you to build a 610 00:33:02,580 --> 00:33:08,730 career that is joyful, that is meaningful, that that makes 611 00:33:08,740 --> 00:33:11,390 sense. And again, life, if you're 612 00:33:11,400 --> 00:33:16,720 lucky, is long. Do not spend a great amount of 613 00:33:16,730 --> 00:33:20,560 time and effort, you know, beating yourself into the ground 614 00:33:20,570 --> 00:33:25,150 doing something that does not, you know, create some sense of 615 00:33:25,160 --> 00:33:28,180 joy and purpose for you. If your life and what you're 616 00:33:28,190 --> 00:33:32,950 doing is not doing that for you, you know, you have to ask 617 00:33:32,960 --> 00:33:34,850 yourself why. And I know I can hear, I can 618 00:33:34,860 --> 00:33:37,090 hear the people growing saying, oh, it's not that simple. 619 00:33:37,100 --> 00:33:38,910 It's not that easy. Believe me, I know. 620 00:33:38,980 --> 00:33:41,070 Come talk to me. Your girl knows life is not that 621 00:33:41,080 --> 00:33:45,380 simple and that easy, OK. But I also know that there are 622 00:33:45,390 --> 00:33:50,030 choices to be made, and the reward is there when you put in 623 00:33:50,040 --> 00:33:53,290 the work. And the reward is there because 624 00:33:53,300 --> 00:33:56,460 it's internal, because you reward yourself with that joy 625 00:33:56,470 --> 00:33:59,620 and that sense of fulfillment. That's it. 626 00:33:59,630 --> 00:34:02,870 That's my Ted talk. Thank you so much for joining me 627 00:34:02,880 --> 00:34:05,480 in the podcast today. Thank you all for tuning in and 628 00:34:05,490 --> 00:34:08,159 listening to this episode. Thank you so much class. 629 00:34:08,170 --> 00:34:09,489 Have a great afternoon. Thank you.