1 00:00:11,870 --> 00:00:14,080 Hello, everybody. Welcome to another episode of 2 00:00:14,090 --> 00:00:16,920 Studying Law Around the World. Today I have the honor to 3 00:00:16,930 --> 00:00:21,000 welcome Gina Alexandris to join us and to share a little bit 4 00:00:21,010 --> 00:00:25,670 about her personal journey in law and to share with us also 5 00:00:25,680 --> 00:00:28,540 about the work that she does these days helping 6 00:00:28,550 --> 00:00:31,580 internationally trained lawyers and lawyers in general with 7 00:00:31,590 --> 00:00:34,270 clarity in their careers. Thank you so much for joining us 8 00:00:34,280 --> 00:00:36,170 today, Gina. It is such a pleasure to be 9 00:00:36,180 --> 00:00:37,430 here, Claudio. Thank you for having. 10 00:00:37,440 --> 00:00:40,960 Me thank you for joining us and choose start our meeting today, 11 00:00:40,970 --> 00:00:43,330 our podcast. I'd love for you to introduce 12 00:00:43,340 --> 00:00:45,930 yourself to our listeners. Would you be able to tell us 13 00:00:45,940 --> 00:00:48,450 about yourself and your career? Absolutely. 14 00:00:48,460 --> 00:00:50,730 I start off by saying two things. 15 00:00:50,740 --> 00:00:56,670 One is that my childhood as a child of immigrant parents has 16 00:00:56,680 --> 00:00:59,910 impacted me in ways that I don't think I appreciated when I was 17 00:00:59,920 --> 00:01:01,890 growing up and as I was even a young adult. 18 00:01:01,960 --> 00:01:05,870 And the second thing is that I have had opportunities that did 19 00:01:05,880 --> 00:01:10,630 not exist when I was in law school and when I graduated from 20 00:01:10,640 --> 00:01:13,090 law school. And so I always remind people 21 00:01:13,140 --> 00:01:16,130 that first of all, to think about what is important to you 22 00:01:16,140 --> 00:01:19,260 and second of all, to understand that there are pathways ahead of 23 00:01:19,270 --> 00:01:22,450 you that you may not realize. So with that in mind, want to 24 00:01:22,460 --> 00:01:24,750 start off wanting to be a teacher, but then because of a 25 00:01:24,760 --> 00:01:28,130 circumstance that happened to my parents with a legal matter, I 26 00:01:28,140 --> 00:01:31,310 realized that they didn't have access to a lot of legal 27 00:01:31,320 --> 00:01:34,150 representation and I switched from wanting to go into teaching 28 00:01:34,160 --> 00:01:36,890 to wanting to go into law. As a result, went to law school, 29 00:01:36,900 --> 00:01:40,230 graduated and worked in a small Toronto firm practicing civil 30 00:01:40,240 --> 00:01:44,250 and family litigation and enjoyed a lot of elements of it 31 00:01:44,260 --> 00:01:45,750 over a period of about four years. 32 00:01:45,760 --> 00:01:48,930 But as I'll discuss later on, something else kept drawing me. 33 00:01:48,940 --> 00:01:51,240 And remember what I said about going back to sort of things 34 00:01:51,250 --> 00:01:54,550 that are of importance to you. Through a variety of ways, I 35 00:01:54,560 --> 00:01:58,180 found my way to a new role that was opening up at Osgoode Hall 36 00:01:58,190 --> 00:02:00,570 Law School to start the career development office. 37 00:02:00,580 --> 00:02:03,310 And it seemed to be the right place at the right time in the 38 00:02:03,320 --> 00:02:07,060 right opportunity and took that role, not having a clue what it 39 00:02:07,070 --> 00:02:09,490 meant to be part of a career development office because at 40 00:02:09,500 --> 00:02:12,180 that time we didn't have them in Canadian law schools. 41 00:02:12,190 --> 00:02:16,900 Worked there and really found a great fit for me and worked 42 00:02:16,910 --> 00:02:20,320 there for about 3 years before the opportunity to become 43 00:02:20,330 --> 00:02:22,340 assistant Dean of the law school came up. 44 00:02:22,410 --> 00:02:26,220 And I remember Claudia and I use this example for many thinking, 45 00:02:26,290 --> 00:02:29,720 I'm not ready for this. This is, this is a leap role or 46 00:02:29,730 --> 00:02:32,040 a stretch role. How can I possibly even think 47 00:02:32,050 --> 00:02:33,720 about it at this stage? It's too soon. 48 00:02:33,770 --> 00:02:36,400 But then a little voice in me said, yeah, but the next person 49 00:02:36,410 --> 00:02:38,420 who does it might be there for a long while. 50 00:02:38,430 --> 00:02:40,480 You might lose this opportunity. Why not try? 51 00:02:40,490 --> 00:02:43,300 And so with that and a lot of support and encouragement from 52 00:02:43,310 --> 00:02:46,140 people that I knew and loved and trusted, I put my hand in for 53 00:02:46,150 --> 00:02:49,100 that and got the role. And, and I was the person who 54 00:02:49,110 --> 00:02:52,450 kept the role for the next 9 years and it was a fabulous 55 00:02:52,460 --> 00:02:55,950 opportunity to engage with the legal community, students, 56 00:02:55,960 --> 00:02:59,870 faculty in ways that I had not even anticipated before. 57 00:02:59,980 --> 00:03:04,330 And Fast forward a total of 12 years at Osgood, the University 58 00:03:04,340 --> 00:03:07,170 of Toronto Faculty of Law had gotten funding from the province 59 00:03:07,180 --> 00:03:09,810 to start something called the Internationally Trained Lawyers 60 00:03:09,820 --> 00:03:12,250 program. We had a few ITL's who were 61 00:03:12,260 --> 00:03:16,000 coming in through the NCAA applicant process at Osgood, but 62 00:03:16,010 --> 00:03:19,670 there were very few other resources at the time for 63 00:03:19,680 --> 00:03:23,070 internationally trained lawyers. And again, change is hard. 64 00:03:23,140 --> 00:03:26,120 Going to the competing law school, quote UN quote, even 65 00:03:26,130 --> 00:03:28,270 though we had a lot of collaboration was hard. 66 00:03:28,320 --> 00:03:31,020 Osgood had been my alma mater, but I decided let me try it. 67 00:03:31,030 --> 00:03:35,300 Let me do it went to the ITL the and started the internationally 68 00:03:35,310 --> 00:03:39,180 trained lawyers program with a group of phenomenal colleagues 69 00:03:39,190 --> 00:03:43,040 and really started seeing what the world of ITL's is like. 70 00:03:43,050 --> 00:03:46,740 And as I go back to as a kid of immigrants, many experiences 71 00:03:46,750 --> 00:03:49,610 that they were facing were still very similar, although there 72 00:03:49,620 --> 00:03:50,980 were some that were very different. 73 00:03:51,050 --> 00:03:54,510 Was really, really happy to be part of that world and to 74 00:03:54,520 --> 00:03:58,340 understand to be able to offer things to Itls that had not been 75 00:03:58,350 --> 00:04:00,940 available, including community before. 76 00:04:00,950 --> 00:04:04,100 And what I saw from that point was that a number of different 77 00:04:04,110 --> 00:04:07,880 programs started coming up after that at EU of T at Osgood across 78 00:04:07,890 --> 00:04:11,220 Canada, programs that were formal programs, informal 79 00:04:11,230 --> 00:04:13,500 programs. And it was that voice was 80 00:04:13,510 --> 00:04:16,300 starting to get louder and I was really, really happy about that. 81 00:04:16,310 --> 00:04:20,040 Somewhere along the lines in about 3 or 4 years that I was at 82 00:04:20,050 --> 00:04:23,150 the ILP, the Ministry of the Attorney General came calling 83 00:04:23,160 --> 00:04:26,460 and said we need somebody to do some of our strategy and 84 00:04:26,470 --> 00:04:27,980 professional development for our lawyers. 85 00:04:27,990 --> 00:04:29,880 Would you come? And I thought, this is a group 86 00:04:29,890 --> 00:04:32,980 public service that I had not worked with before and I knew 87 00:04:32,990 --> 00:04:35,140 what private practice was like. I wanted to do that. 88 00:04:35,190 --> 00:04:38,920 I made this shift and did it and was really blessed to meet a 89 00:04:38,930 --> 00:04:42,400 number of bright, talented giving individuals and 90 00:04:42,410 --> 00:04:45,400 discovered what the OS, the Ontario Public Service has to 91 00:04:45,410 --> 00:04:48,280 offer for lawyers that I hadn't appreciated before. 92 00:04:48,330 --> 00:04:51,940 But then Fast forward the opportunity to start yet another 93 00:04:51,950 --> 00:04:57,040 program at the third university in Toronto, Van Ryerson, now TM 94 00:04:57,050 --> 00:05:00,850 U came up. They had gotten the approval to 95 00:05:00,860 --> 00:05:04,770 launch the English version of the law practice program and 96 00:05:04,780 --> 00:05:08,520 that that pull to start something new to support people 97 00:05:08,530 --> 00:05:11,990 who otherwise we're finding challenges just was too, too 98 00:05:12,000 --> 00:05:14,850 strong. Made the leap and spent about 99 00:05:14,860 --> 00:05:18,000 close to 9 years with the university with the law practice 100 00:05:18,010 --> 00:05:21,250 program and also starting and helping to develop the their new 101 00:05:21,260 --> 00:05:23,750 law school, which was a phenomenal experience. 102 00:05:23,800 --> 00:05:26,830 So again, if you had asked me at graduation, what would I be 103 00:05:26,840 --> 00:05:28,490 doing? I would have told you civil and 104 00:05:28,500 --> 00:05:31,140 family litigation forever and ever never even because each of 105 00:05:31,150 --> 00:05:34,070 those worlds that I mentioned were brand new did not even 106 00:05:34,080 --> 00:05:38,840 exist. And and then I had while at UFT, 107 00:05:38,850 --> 00:05:42,580 I had started my coach training and it was time about 2 1/2 108 00:05:42,590 --> 00:05:47,020 years ago for me to pursue that full time and made the difficult 109 00:05:47,030 --> 00:05:50,650 but easy decision to again switch and move into the 110 00:05:50,660 --> 00:05:53,920 entrepreneurial role which I'm in now, which is supporting 111 00:05:53,930 --> 00:05:56,800 lawyers and law students and other professionals as they 112 00:05:56,870 --> 00:06:01,210 navigate leadership transitions, changes generally and watch 113 00:06:01,220 --> 00:06:03,340 their successes. So that's in a nutshell. 114 00:06:03,390 --> 00:06:05,980 That's amazing. I feel like not not a lot of 115 00:06:05,990 --> 00:06:09,280 professionals have had the exposure you had to this whole 116 00:06:09,290 --> 00:06:13,160 world of internationally trained lawyers, programming development 117 00:06:13,230 --> 00:06:16,160 and the legal field itself. So it's just fantastic to hear 118 00:06:16,170 --> 00:06:19,180 about your story. And, and I feel like there is a 119 00:06:19,190 --> 00:06:22,500 common thread connecting all of these career choices. 120 00:06:22,510 --> 00:06:25,990 I think I mentioned it before in a few podcasts and there's this 121 00:06:26,000 --> 00:06:29,920 graduation speech by Steve Jobs where he talks about connecting 122 00:06:29,930 --> 00:06:32,120 the dots when you look backward and all of that. 123 00:06:32,210 --> 00:06:36,120 And I, I'd love to know, you know, after holding such like a 124 00:06:36,130 --> 00:06:40,010 wide range of roles across leadership, law, education, what 125 00:06:40,020 --> 00:06:42,820 would you say that connects these points in your career over 126 00:06:42,830 --> 00:06:44,900 the years? It's interesting because believe 127 00:06:44,910 --> 00:06:49,280 it or not, this was when I was thinking about leaving law or 128 00:06:49,290 --> 00:06:51,680 not figure not sure what I wanted to do while I was in 129 00:06:51,690 --> 00:06:53,740 practice. Something felt off but I wasn't 130 00:06:53,750 --> 00:06:57,100 quite sure I could identify what it was and I went to a then 131 00:06:57,190 --> 00:06:59,660 career psychologist. We didn't have coaches 132 00:06:59,670 --> 00:07:02,790 necessarily that time and one of the first her sizes she asked me 133 00:07:02,800 --> 00:07:06,490 to do was do a quote UN quote life map to see sort of what 134 00:07:06,500 --> 00:07:09,570 were the highs and the lows and you sort of that I experienced 135 00:07:09,660 --> 00:07:11,950 up until that point and to help connect the dots. 136 00:07:11,960 --> 00:07:16,020 So that exercise is a phenomenal exercise for all of us to do a 137 00:07:16,030 --> 00:07:18,230 different stages. The first one certainly came up 138 00:07:18,240 --> 00:07:21,250 at that time and has been consistent and that's the idea 139 00:07:21,260 --> 00:07:23,030 of personal and professional development growth. 140 00:07:23,120 --> 00:07:27,470 My father was an individual who had a grade 3 education and yet 141 00:07:27,480 --> 00:07:30,770 really craved and really encouraged learning. 142 00:07:30,840 --> 00:07:34,940 And I think I've taken that on in ways that I had not not 143 00:07:34,980 --> 00:07:38,530 necessarily appreciated, but my own and others. 144 00:07:38,540 --> 00:07:40,970 Personal and professional development is something that is 145 00:07:41,040 --> 00:07:45,150 a critical theme and a critical dot throughout all of the roles 146 00:07:45,160 --> 00:07:47,730 that I've had and personally. But what I've discovered, and 147 00:07:47,740 --> 00:07:50,040 this is this I think I discovered during my coach 148 00:07:50,050 --> 00:07:54,720 training, the second theme or the second connecting the dot is 149 00:07:54,770 --> 00:07:57,610 celebration and celebrating people's journeys. 150 00:07:57,620 --> 00:08:00,590 Remind people of the celebrations as you're doing 151 00:08:00,600 --> 00:08:02,890 with a lot of people and for people who aren't even in the 152 00:08:02,900 --> 00:08:05,930 profession yet. Being able to hold the mirror 153 00:08:05,940 --> 00:08:09,870 and spotlight and celebrate others has been what I enjoy 154 00:08:09,880 --> 00:08:13,150 doing. My favorite part of my role at 155 00:08:13,480 --> 00:08:18,610 at Osgood and at the ITLP and the LP were the convocations at 156 00:08:18,620 --> 00:08:20,550 Osgood and the calls to the bar ceremony. 157 00:08:20,560 --> 00:08:23,770 I had the benefit and the privilege of being on stage for 158 00:08:23,780 --> 00:08:27,600 the calls to the bar ceremony. Those moments, those hours, 159 00:08:27,610 --> 00:08:31,700 those celebrations sort of just highlight for me being able to 160 00:08:31,710 --> 00:08:34,539 say you've got this, you've got this milestone, there's more to 161 00:08:34,549 --> 00:08:36,500 go, but you'll be celebrated then as well. 162 00:08:36,570 --> 00:08:39,750 And even being there in my coaching practice for the 163 00:08:39,809 --> 00:08:43,299 celebration Solar Large that clients find themselves a new 164 00:08:43,309 --> 00:08:46,810 job, a new understanding, a new philosophy, a change that they 165 00:08:46,820 --> 00:08:49,220 were looking forward to. I think it's important for each 166 00:08:49,230 --> 00:08:51,840 of us to be able to do it individually, but then to have 167 00:08:51,850 --> 00:08:54,480 somebody champion us and that way I think is also important 168 00:08:54,490 --> 00:08:57,320 and I enjoy that role. So the professional and personal 169 00:08:57,330 --> 00:09:01,420 development and the celebration or championing of of peoples 170 00:09:01,430 --> 00:09:05,000 successes I think are the 2 common links in everything that 171 00:09:05,010 --> 00:09:07,400 I have done today. How has your idea of career 172 00:09:07,410 --> 00:09:12,390 success changed overtime? I think think Claudio, that one 173 00:09:12,400 --> 00:09:16,690 of the biggest ways it's changed for me is taking it more from an 174 00:09:17,060 --> 00:09:20,090 in, from an outward reflection. What do other people want me to 175 00:09:20,100 --> 00:09:21,380 do? What do other people think I'm 176 00:09:21,390 --> 00:09:23,470 good at? What do other people define the 177 00:09:23,480 --> 00:09:26,330 success? How do other people view success 178 00:09:26,400 --> 00:09:30,110 to more of an inward reflection and how do I define success? 179 00:09:30,120 --> 00:09:32,330 What do I want? What does it look like to me? 180 00:09:32,340 --> 00:09:35,510 And understanding and appreciating success looks so 181 00:09:35,520 --> 00:09:37,850 different for every for each and every person. 182 00:09:37,940 --> 00:09:41,970 And to appreciate and to celebrate our own definition of 183 00:09:41,980 --> 00:09:44,190 success. I can tell you that the pull 184 00:09:44,200 --> 00:09:47,650 towards other people's goals and other people's definitions is so 185 00:09:47,660 --> 00:09:50,670 very strong, especially in a profession like law. 186 00:09:50,720 --> 00:09:52,860 It starts almost from the first day of law school. 187 00:09:52,940 --> 00:09:56,270 See, it also starts from before we even get to law school. 188 00:09:56,280 --> 00:09:59,450 I think good intentions on, on our schools, I was part of this 189 00:09:59,460 --> 00:10:03,390 whole process where we want to see people see themselves in 190 00:10:03,400 --> 00:10:06,140 leadership roles, But there's many ways of defining 191 00:10:06,150 --> 00:10:07,790 leadership. There's many ways of defining 192 00:10:07,800 --> 00:10:09,950 successes. And I think when you're able to 193 00:10:09,960 --> 00:10:13,290 sift through the noise and when you're able to actually think 194 00:10:13,300 --> 00:10:15,960 through what it is that you really want, what's important to 195 00:10:15,970 --> 00:10:20,130 you, you can define success in the way that you want to. 196 00:10:20,140 --> 00:10:23,540 And so I think that that shift for me more and it came and I'll 197 00:10:23,550 --> 00:10:26,010 tell you this, I hadn't really made the connection until just 198 00:10:26,020 --> 00:10:30,250 now when I was transitioning from the practice of law to my 199 00:10:30,260 --> 00:10:33,380 new job at Osgood, which again, nobody knew what a career 200 00:10:33,390 --> 00:10:35,650 development was or a career development, Sir. 201 00:10:35,660 --> 00:10:38,330 I had no clue how to explain it to people. 202 00:10:38,400 --> 00:10:40,570 Yet there was something there that was telling me, it's in 203 00:10:40,580 --> 00:10:43,610 law, it's in legal education, it's helping people. 204 00:10:43,690 --> 00:10:46,870 And it felt right at the time. But I remember my biggest you've 205 00:10:46,880 --> 00:10:49,860 seen, and I'm sure others who might be watching know how close 206 00:10:49,870 --> 00:10:53,870 I was to my parents and how remarkably impactful they were. 207 00:10:53,910 --> 00:10:57,090 I remember being really nervous and ambivalent of telling my 208 00:10:57,100 --> 00:10:59,690 father that I was not going to be a lawyer anymore. 209 00:10:59,700 --> 00:11:02,490 That identity that people have. It's easy to define what a 210 00:11:02,500 --> 00:11:04,590 lawyer is. And I still remember the time 211 00:11:04,600 --> 00:11:08,730 when I was telling him and, and nervous that he'd be 212 00:11:08,740 --> 00:11:13,130 disappointed, upset, fill in whatever word that that might be 213 00:11:13,170 --> 00:11:16,730 applicable for you, because I had his definition. 214 00:11:16,740 --> 00:11:20,520 You know, the successful lawyer, the successful advocate, the, 215 00:11:20,590 --> 00:11:24,600 the, you know, the daughter who went on to, to go to law school 216 00:11:24,610 --> 00:11:27,300 that when nobody else had my dad was very practical man. 217 00:11:27,310 --> 00:11:30,750 And I remember telling him very nervous and he, his response, he 218 00:11:30,760 --> 00:11:32,680 looked at me and he said, are you going to be happy? 219 00:11:32,750 --> 00:11:35,020 And I said, he had daddy. Actually, I think I will. 220 00:11:35,030 --> 00:11:36,700 And he said, good, I'm very glad. 221 00:11:36,710 --> 00:11:39,570 Then do what you do really well and be happy with it and I'll be 222 00:11:39,580 --> 00:11:41,520 very happy for you. And all of a sudden, I thought 223 00:11:41,630 --> 00:11:44,780 this man's definition of success is not what I had thought it 224 00:11:44,790 --> 00:11:46,600 was. It was a very different success 225 00:11:46,610 --> 00:11:48,740 definition. And it allowed me then to free 226 00:11:48,750 --> 00:11:52,640 myself from outside definitions and start really thinking about 227 00:11:52,650 --> 00:11:54,960 what my own definition. Was that's fantastic. 228 00:11:55,090 --> 00:11:58,710 It's always inspiring to hear that and to have that family 229 00:11:58,720 --> 00:12:01,710 support. I, you know, at times people 230 00:12:01,720 --> 00:12:05,580 have asked how, how do you keep up with doing the LM and, and 231 00:12:05,590 --> 00:12:08,550 you know, keeping this side projects, doing a podcast, part 232 00:12:08,560 --> 00:12:11,310 time work and this and that. And honestly, without that 233 00:12:11,320 --> 00:12:13,610 family help it, it wouldn't be the case for me. 234 00:12:13,620 --> 00:12:17,570 So I feel very, very privileged to, to have that support. 235 00:12:17,580 --> 00:12:21,240 And it's amazing to hear how you've got your experience that 236 00:12:21,250 --> 00:12:24,450 you and thinking about your trajectory and the things that 237 00:12:24,460 --> 00:12:27,210 you shared so far. You've worked closely with a lot 238 00:12:27,220 --> 00:12:30,250 of internationally trained lawyers for many years. 239 00:12:30,340 --> 00:12:33,290 And I was wondering what are some of the most common 240 00:12:33,300 --> 00:12:36,970 challenges that you would see they facing when entering the 241 00:12:36,980 --> 00:12:39,830 the legal market? And also, if I may ask, adding 242 00:12:39,840 --> 00:12:43,620 to that question, how have you seen it changing overtime from 243 00:12:43,630 --> 00:12:46,980 when you started to what you see with your clients now? 244 00:12:46,990 --> 00:12:50,350 Really great question. And I as you know, just before 245 00:12:50,360 --> 00:12:53,430 we have taped this, I have sort of been immersed in ITL's, the 246 00:12:53,440 --> 00:12:56,180 ITL conference in Calgary next year they're planning on having 247 00:12:56,190 --> 00:13:00,020 it here in Toronto. So just a word of encouragement 248 00:13:00,090 --> 00:13:02,440 to Itls to think about joining next year. 249 00:13:02,490 --> 00:13:05,860 That thought really came up for me that your second thought, 250 00:13:05,870 --> 00:13:09,240 especially in terms of what's changed and what's still the 251 00:13:09,250 --> 00:13:11,750 same, because there's a lot that's still the same, but there 252 00:13:11,760 --> 00:13:14,860 have been changes. And in terms of access to 253 00:13:14,870 --> 00:13:17,040 information, I'll say the following. 254 00:13:17,110 --> 00:13:21,640 There used to be few resources and few points of information, 255 00:13:21,710 --> 00:13:25,180 and now there is so much and, and on the one hand, I am so 256 00:13:25,190 --> 00:13:28,800 glad that there are more resources available for Itls. 257 00:13:28,810 --> 00:13:32,260 What I'm hearing though, is that people are so overwhelmed with 258 00:13:32,270 --> 00:13:34,380 data and information. Sometimes they just don't know 259 00:13:34,390 --> 00:13:36,120 how to start and how to access it. 260 00:13:36,190 --> 00:13:39,900 So while it's there, it's the challenge of accessing it. 261 00:13:39,910 --> 00:13:42,980 So the growth of data and information is really wonderful. 262 00:13:42,990 --> 00:13:44,210 Let's talk about the elephant in the room. 263 00:13:44,220 --> 00:13:48,300 There's still stigma about Itls, although it's lessened with more 264 00:13:48,310 --> 00:13:53,120 and more Itls speaking and supporting one another with more 265 00:13:53,130 --> 00:13:57,630 champions of ITL's being vocal, the stigma has lessened, but 266 00:13:57,640 --> 00:14:00,130 it's still there. And, and I think being able to 267 00:14:00,200 --> 00:14:04,260 A, understand that it's there and B, work towards and find 268 00:14:04,270 --> 00:14:07,950 your supports to be able to overcome that I think is really, 269 00:14:07,960 --> 00:14:11,710 really critical. You mentioned the networks and 270 00:14:11,720 --> 00:14:13,420 community support or family support. 271 00:14:13,430 --> 00:14:15,680 So while you and I may have talked about families, one of 272 00:14:15,690 --> 00:14:19,730 the challenges for a lot of Itls is that they don't have. 273 00:14:19,740 --> 00:14:21,970 And I don't know how many people I've spoken to who have said 274 00:14:21,980 --> 00:14:25,880 I've got to do everything on my own because I don't have family 275 00:14:25,890 --> 00:14:27,900 around. I don't have, many times I don't 276 00:14:27,910 --> 00:14:29,900 have even friends. They've come completely not 277 00:14:29,910 --> 00:14:33,720 knowing anybody around. And that lack of personal and 278 00:14:33,730 --> 00:14:37,380 let alone professional networks or relationships or communities 279 00:14:37,430 --> 00:14:39,410 is really challenging. And what I found is these 280 00:14:39,420 --> 00:14:41,280 groups. So the change is that these 281 00:14:41,290 --> 00:14:45,080 groups, whether it's the ITL network, whether it's an LLM, 282 00:14:45,150 --> 00:14:49,460 these groups allow people to have the community that I felt 283 00:14:49,470 --> 00:14:52,340 was so important when we started the ITLP at the University of 284 00:14:52,350 --> 00:14:54,600 Toronto. It's that community of other 285 00:14:54,610 --> 00:14:58,220 people who are in the same boat and get you understand that 286 00:14:58,230 --> 00:15:01,340 you're juggling immigration challenges with figuring out 287 00:15:01,350 --> 00:15:06,540 your next job, with getting that that training that you need with 288 00:15:06,590 --> 00:15:08,420 looking for daycare for your child. 289 00:15:08,490 --> 00:15:11,740 We had new babies born in each of the programs and then 290 00:15:11,810 --> 00:15:15,520 individuals who were trying to juggle new parenthood with all 291 00:15:15,530 --> 00:15:18,200 of that. It's the figuring out how to 292 00:15:18,210 --> 00:15:22,560 cope with illness with people back home who you're so far from 293 00:15:22,570 --> 00:15:25,780 and yet so dearly love. So community building here I 294 00:15:25,790 --> 00:15:29,640 think is really a challenge, but also something that I've seen 295 00:15:29,650 --> 00:15:31,920 change. And one thing that I will say 296 00:15:31,990 --> 00:15:35,870 continues to be a challenge and always has been is access to 297 00:15:35,880 --> 00:15:38,500 that very first job. I think the other elements, the 298 00:15:38,510 --> 00:15:42,800 access to information, the stigma, the community, all help 299 00:15:42,850 --> 00:15:45,460 with access to that first legal job. 300 00:15:45,510 --> 00:15:47,990 But that continues to be throughout the conference, 301 00:15:48,060 --> 00:15:49,910 throughout people. When I have conversations with 302 00:15:49,920 --> 00:15:52,800 people, that tends to be one of the first challenges. 303 00:15:52,870 --> 00:15:56,020 I see fantastic. And and it seems like for that, 304 00:15:56,070 --> 00:15:59,010 for that first opportunity, that's the one that hasn't 305 00:15:59,020 --> 00:16:01,120 changed a whole lot then through the years. 306 00:16:01,190 --> 00:16:03,880 Very interesting. So you've talked about, you 307 00:16:03,890 --> 00:16:06,840 know, building careers with purpose and all of that and 308 00:16:06,850 --> 00:16:09,960 mentioned now this is struggles. So what are some ways that 309 00:16:09,970 --> 00:16:13,000 internationally trained lawyers can stay focused on their 310 00:16:13,010 --> 00:16:16,640 purpose when they're navigating so many transitions? 311 00:16:16,710 --> 00:16:19,300 And I say that thinking about where there's so much to 312 00:16:19,310 --> 00:16:23,240 consider here, but at times we, we and, and I catch myself 313 00:16:23,250 --> 00:16:26,120 talking about this with colleagues as well, where at 314 00:16:26,130 --> 00:16:29,560 this point, many people have a bit more clarity in their 315 00:16:29,570 --> 00:16:31,570 careers. They've gone through know the 316 00:16:31,580 --> 00:16:35,130 undergrad, many of us did have some legal experience before 317 00:16:35,140 --> 00:16:36,890 starting this career here in Canada. 318 00:16:36,970 --> 00:16:41,760 And then it seems like maybe an area of law is really open to 319 00:16:41,770 --> 00:16:45,090 receiving people and that you can more easily find an 320 00:16:45,100 --> 00:16:47,150 articling position in that area of law. 321 00:16:47,160 --> 00:16:50,230 But you know, you, you really don't, you know, match that 322 00:16:50,240 --> 00:16:52,050 area. And then what do you do? 323 00:16:52,060 --> 00:16:56,050 Do you just, you know, take it so that you can get license or, 324 00:16:56,100 --> 00:16:59,310 you know, so, so there's so many reflections to make about that. 325 00:16:59,320 --> 00:17:01,630 And I'd love to pick your brain a little bit and hear your 326 00:17:01,640 --> 00:17:03,990 thoughts on that. Claudia, you've you've hit on 327 00:17:04,060 --> 00:17:07,690 sort of a constant conversation that I have with ITL's the 328 00:17:07,700 --> 00:17:10,859 balancing act, right? That has to take place, but also 329 00:17:10,869 --> 00:17:12,970 when you use the word, and I'm so glad that you did the 330 00:17:12,980 --> 00:17:16,030 reflection and the self reflection that we need to be 331 00:17:16,040 --> 00:17:18,410 doing regularly. And, and you know, sometimes 332 00:17:18,420 --> 00:17:21,150 people will say to me, I have no time to self reflect or I have 333 00:17:21,160 --> 00:17:25,030 no time to, or energy to have the privilege of thinking 334 00:17:25,040 --> 00:17:27,450 through what I want. I just need to get things done. 335 00:17:27,460 --> 00:17:29,790 I need to get a job. I need to put food on the table. 336 00:17:29,800 --> 00:17:32,810 And, and I always ask them just to pause because it's so really 337 00:17:32,820 --> 00:17:34,330 important. I realize that there's a 338 00:17:34,340 --> 00:17:36,780 privilege in being able to self reflect, but I think there's a 339 00:17:36,790 --> 00:17:41,910 danger if you don't take that time and energy and space to 340 00:17:41,920 --> 00:17:44,670 allow yourself to think about what's really important to you. 341 00:17:44,760 --> 00:17:47,610 And it could be that what's really important to you at this 342 00:17:47,620 --> 00:17:50,130 time maybe a little bit different than what was 343 00:17:50,140 --> 00:17:53,230 important to you five years ago or two years ago, and what might 344 00:17:53,240 --> 00:17:56,360 be important to you six or seven years down the road, for that 345 00:17:56,370 --> 00:17:57,750 matter. So thinking about what's 346 00:17:57,760 --> 00:18:00,360 important to you at this very time is critical. 347 00:18:00,370 --> 00:18:03,760 And typically some of those values, some of those priorities 348 00:18:03,770 --> 00:18:07,120 will be the same regardless of circumstances around us. 349 00:18:07,190 --> 00:18:10,860 So if you think, for example, that time spent with family is 350 00:18:10,870 --> 00:18:14,760 important, or if you think that being a subject expert in a 351 00:18:14,770 --> 00:18:17,380 particular, just being a subject expert is important. 352 00:18:17,430 --> 00:18:22,000 Or if you have a particular interest in and enthusiasm for a 353 00:18:22,010 --> 00:18:25,100 particular area of law, intellectual property or family 354 00:18:25,110 --> 00:18:27,640 law. Or if you think that right now 355 00:18:27,650 --> 00:18:31,620 priority is money and you need financial stability because 356 00:18:31,630 --> 00:18:34,340 that's been something that you are craving and have not been 357 00:18:34,350 --> 00:18:37,420 able to establish. Each of those is a legitimate 358 00:18:37,430 --> 00:18:39,470 goal to have. Each of those is illegitimate 359 00:18:39,480 --> 00:18:41,550 value to have. Again, it goes back to the 360 00:18:41,560 --> 00:18:44,410 inward versus the outward. Don't second guess yourself on 361 00:18:44,420 --> 00:18:47,340 what your classmate is doing or what Claudio is saying he's 362 00:18:47,350 --> 00:18:49,090 doing or what Gina is saying she's doing. 363 00:18:49,160 --> 00:18:51,950 Thinking about what's important to you at any given time is 364 00:18:51,960 --> 00:18:54,810 really, really important. And you know, many people say, 365 00:18:54,820 --> 00:18:58,150 well, you know, our parents or whoever other immigrants were 366 00:18:58,160 --> 00:19:00,920 thinking about didn't have the luxury of thinking about these 367 00:19:00,930 --> 00:19:03,000 things. And I say, I bet you they did. 368 00:19:03,010 --> 00:19:05,870 They just didn't formalize it or just didn't think about doing 369 00:19:05,880 --> 00:19:07,280 it. But I'm sure that when they were 370 00:19:07,290 --> 00:19:10,430 looking for a first job, they may have been thinking right now 371 00:19:10,480 --> 00:19:12,630 I don't have the luxury of financial stability. 372 00:19:12,640 --> 00:19:16,290 I need that or right now I do. My circumstances are such. 373 00:19:16,360 --> 00:19:18,430 Let me think about what I can look at. 374 00:19:18,440 --> 00:19:20,840 So self reflection, I think on your values is important. 375 00:19:20,850 --> 00:19:24,290 What matters to you most in any particular given time, speak to 376 00:19:24,300 --> 00:19:27,750 someone about it, a good friend, a trusted colleague, a coach, an 377 00:19:27,760 --> 00:19:29,840 instructor. People appear that you're 378 00:19:29,850 --> 00:19:32,730 meeting, but don't necessarily just go with what they say. 379 00:19:32,780 --> 00:19:35,680 Speak about it to get information, to hear your own 380 00:19:35,690 --> 00:19:38,150 thoughts out loud. Because when we speak about 381 00:19:38,160 --> 00:19:40,310 things in our head, Claudio, it's a jumble. 382 00:19:40,320 --> 00:19:42,830 Sometimes we have to speak it through and speak it out. 383 00:19:42,840 --> 00:19:45,520 And I always say to other things, maybe give yourself a 384 00:19:45,530 --> 00:19:48,790 visual reminder. If family is a priority, put a 385 00:19:48,800 --> 00:19:50,890 screenshot of family on your phone. 386 00:19:50,980 --> 00:19:56,250 If excitement or travel or journey is is important or 387 00:19:56,260 --> 00:19:59,270 priority, have a picture on your on your screen somewhere to 388 00:19:59,280 --> 00:20:02,570 remind you of what that is if calm and stability. 389 00:20:02,640 --> 00:20:05,760 Or financial success is what is motivating you right now. 390 00:20:05,810 --> 00:20:07,680 Again, what's that visual reminder? 391 00:20:07,750 --> 00:20:09,680 I also, and I don't know if you've ever done this. 392 00:20:09,690 --> 00:20:10,960 I can't remember in any of your posts. 393 00:20:10,970 --> 00:20:13,850 I've seen this and if, if, if you have, my apologies. 394 00:20:13,860 --> 00:20:16,920 I sometimes get clients dues and I used to get our students to do 395 00:20:16,930 --> 00:20:18,960 this. Do a letter to your future self 396 00:20:19,030 --> 00:20:23,460 reminding you in the future what is important to you right now. 397 00:20:23,470 --> 00:20:28,040 And whether with wonder of technology, you can post market 398 00:20:28,050 --> 00:20:31,280 for six months down the road for a year down the road for three 399 00:20:31,290 --> 00:20:33,160 months down there for three years down the road. 400 00:20:33,230 --> 00:20:36,930 You can use the you know, e-mail send function to you. 401 00:20:36,940 --> 00:20:38,980 Hopefully you won't change emails or you'll look at the 402 00:20:38,990 --> 00:20:40,660 e-mail. You know, that will be a letter 403 00:20:40,670 --> 00:20:43,640 to yourself and a reminder of what's important to yourself. 404 00:20:43,650 --> 00:20:46,230 I think being able to talk through those issues on a 405 00:20:46,240 --> 00:20:49,870 regular basis with somebody that you trust and believe in, but 406 00:20:49,880 --> 00:20:56,910 also just to remind yourself of what's important today helps 407 00:20:56,920 --> 00:20:58,990 when you're making decisions. And one of the exercises that I 408 00:20:59,000 --> 00:21:02,050 do with my coaching clients is we go through this values 409 00:21:02,060 --> 00:21:03,470 exercise where we talk through it. 410 00:21:03,480 --> 00:21:06,850 And then as during our coaching engagement, as opportunities 411 00:21:06,860 --> 00:21:10,190 come up, I always bring that back to people and say, remember 412 00:21:10,200 --> 00:21:13,090 when we had this value exercise? How does this particular job 413 00:21:13,100 --> 00:21:15,450 opportunity align with what's important? 414 00:21:15,520 --> 00:21:16,810 And then we have to make decisions. 415 00:21:16,820 --> 00:21:20,130 We're adults. And so sometimes if it aligns 416 00:21:20,140 --> 00:21:22,650 with eight out of ten of our values, great. 417 00:21:22,660 --> 00:21:25,430 Sometimes we have to make decisions that even if right now 418 00:21:25,440 --> 00:21:28,790 this opportunity might not align with the majority of our values, 419 00:21:28,880 --> 00:21:30,430 we need to take it for other reasons. 420 00:21:30,440 --> 00:21:33,870 We're making an informed decision. 421 00:21:33,880 --> 00:21:35,110 And I think that's really critical. 422 00:21:35,120 --> 00:21:38,410 I'll give you a brief example. And again, it hadn't really, 423 00:21:38,570 --> 00:21:41,940 they hadn't connected it until we had this conversation when I 424 00:21:41,950 --> 00:21:45,360 was assistant Dean and I'd, I'd oftentimes get first year 425 00:21:45,370 --> 00:21:47,980 students or even sometimes second year students come in to 426 00:21:47,990 --> 00:21:50,870 me, especially first year students in the first few months 427 00:21:50,880 --> 00:21:54,520 who would be questioning their choice of coming to law school. 428 00:21:54,530 --> 00:21:56,660 Why did I decide to do it? I can't do it. 429 00:21:56,670 --> 00:21:58,840 I'm, I'm stuck. I'm not sure it's what I really 430 00:21:58,850 --> 00:22:01,050 want. And we had paper files in the 431 00:22:01,060 --> 00:22:03,340 early days. I would go back and pull out 432 00:22:03,350 --> 00:22:06,380 their admission letter or their application, their personal 433 00:22:06,390 --> 00:22:09,240 statement and their application. And without them knowing what I 434 00:22:09,250 --> 00:22:12,980 was doing, I would actually read out a portion of their personal 435 00:22:12,990 --> 00:22:15,240 statement. And so they were hearing out 436 00:22:15,250 --> 00:22:19,280 loud what they wrote anywhere from one to two or three years 437 00:22:19,290 --> 00:22:21,990 earlier about why they wanted to go to law school. 438 00:22:22,050 --> 00:22:25,670 And I don't know how many times I'd get stunned looks with who 439 00:22:25,680 --> 00:22:27,770 was that person. Well, yeah, I forgot that that's 440 00:22:27,780 --> 00:22:29,650 what I want to do. And then a conversation would 441 00:22:29,660 --> 00:22:32,310 start. I still really wanna do that or, 442 00:22:32,380 --> 00:22:33,750 you know, that was what I wanted them. 443 00:22:33,760 --> 00:22:36,210 But I think I've changed, and this is what I want to do. 444 00:22:36,220 --> 00:22:39,410 But it sort of reminded people of what was in their head at 445 00:22:39,420 --> 00:22:41,830 some point, and then they could think through why this was 446 00:22:41,840 --> 00:22:44,210 important at this point. That's incredible. 447 00:22:44,220 --> 00:22:47,690 What a privilege for those that got the chance to, to have that 448 00:22:47,700 --> 00:22:49,630 done for them. That's so amazing. 449 00:22:49,800 --> 00:22:51,950 Going forward. Here is our conversation and 450 00:22:52,000 --> 00:22:54,720 wow, so many good reflections you're bringing. 451 00:22:54,730 --> 00:22:56,950 Thank you so much. What kind of advice would you 452 00:22:56,960 --> 00:22:59,300 give then to internationally trained lawyers who are trying 453 00:22:59,310 --> 00:23:02,450 to to balance these ideas of meeting the licensing 454 00:23:02,460 --> 00:23:06,870 requirements in trying to build a community in a network here in 455 00:23:06,880 --> 00:23:10,330 Canada that will, you know, give that that support that you just 456 00:23:10,340 --> 00:23:13,330 mentioned that sometimes we have with family, we have with 457 00:23:13,340 --> 00:23:16,170 friends, and then, you know, juggling all of these things at 458 00:23:16,180 --> 00:23:18,550 the same time. And then also, I guess that 459 00:23:18,560 --> 00:23:21,050 network may also, you know, open job opportunities. 460 00:23:21,100 --> 00:23:24,770 So there's so much involved in the whole, you know, system of 461 00:23:24,780 --> 00:23:27,950 different stakeholders involved. There is so much. 462 00:23:27,960 --> 00:23:32,550 And this past weekend, the person who was being the MC for 463 00:23:32,560 --> 00:23:37,780 the conference was an Ontario IIT L who actually knew from the 464 00:23:37,840 --> 00:23:41,530 law practice program. But he was using a phrase when 465 00:23:41,540 --> 00:23:45,200 people would, when he would be thanking speakers or panelists 466 00:23:45,210 --> 00:23:47,890 or keynotes or whatnot. And he was using a phrase that I 467 00:23:47,900 --> 00:23:50,170 hadn't really heard before. And as given what I said 468 00:23:50,180 --> 00:23:52,230 earlier, it really resonated with me. 469 00:23:52,300 --> 00:23:54,690 But instead of saying, you know, let's give them a round of 470 00:23:54,700 --> 00:23:57,310 applause, which is sort of the typical thing, or let's, you 471 00:23:57,320 --> 00:24:00,450 know, let's thank our guests or our speakers or panelists, He 472 00:24:00,460 --> 00:24:02,790 would say, let's, let's celebrate them. 473 00:24:02,840 --> 00:24:04,690 Let's join me in celebrating them. 474 00:24:04,740 --> 00:24:07,510 And I want to do the same for you because I think what you are 475 00:24:07,520 --> 00:24:11,080 asking and what you are doing for the ITL community really is 476 00:24:11,090 --> 00:24:14,770 an incredible opportunity. And, and I want to celebrate you 477 00:24:14,780 --> 00:24:17,410 and I want to celebrate all Itls who may be listening. 478 00:24:17,520 --> 00:24:20,650 And I want to celebrate all of the profession who is giving, 479 00:24:20,700 --> 00:24:24,530 who are giving Itls that chance. And so that in terms of the 480 00:24:24,540 --> 00:24:27,950 community building that you're asking me about, two things come 481 00:24:27,960 --> 00:24:30,220 up in particular. One is to remember that this 482 00:24:30,230 --> 00:24:33,310 process, as much as you want to get through it, as much as you 483 00:24:33,320 --> 00:24:36,020 want to run through it and finish because you've got to 484 00:24:36,030 --> 00:24:37,960 tick off everything on your checklist, right? 485 00:24:37,970 --> 00:24:40,940 We all have this mental checklist done, done, done, done 486 00:24:40,990 --> 00:24:43,590 or still in progress. Just remember, it's a marathon. 487 00:24:43,600 --> 00:24:47,610 It's a marathon, not a Sprint. It is a long journey and it can 488 00:24:47,620 --> 00:24:51,120 take you longer than you had anticipated, and that's OK. 489 00:24:51,190 --> 00:24:53,300 It's not a Sprint. Don't try and rush through it. 490 00:24:53,310 --> 00:24:55,980 You're going to miss so much if you try and rush through it. 491 00:24:55,990 --> 00:24:58,880 And the other part that I will say, which sort of takes that 492 00:24:58,890 --> 00:25:03,270 into account is include relationship building as part of 493 00:25:03,280 --> 00:25:05,830 that process. When you think about, OK, first 494 00:25:05,840 --> 00:25:08,700 the accreditation process, then the NCA process, I mean, then 495 00:25:08,710 --> 00:25:11,160 the licensing process and as part of the licensing process, 496 00:25:11,260 --> 00:25:14,510 exams or articling, then that first job after that. 497 00:25:14,580 --> 00:25:16,590 And then of course, we compartmentalize all the other 498 00:25:16,600 --> 00:25:18,130 things that we have to do in our life. 499 00:25:18,140 --> 00:25:21,600 Personally perhaps. And my comment on that is think 500 00:25:21,610 --> 00:25:25,110 about it all as one big journey, one big part of your journey. 501 00:25:25,120 --> 00:25:28,010 And if we think about networking or community building or 502 00:25:28,020 --> 00:25:30,300 relationship building as a separate, it's going to 503 00:25:30,310 --> 00:25:33,500 overwhelm us. Even with current lawyers who 504 00:25:33,510 --> 00:25:36,200 are thinking about business development, I have to get 505 00:25:36,210 --> 00:25:39,490 across to them and their mindset has to change that. 506 00:25:39,500 --> 00:25:42,450 In fact, business development is just a part of the job. 507 00:25:42,460 --> 00:25:46,390 When they think about the practice of law and I have to 508 00:25:46,400 --> 00:25:50,380 build a portfolio or I have to build a client list, when they 509 00:25:50,390 --> 00:25:52,570 think about it as separate, they're not going to give it the 510 00:25:52,580 --> 00:25:54,750 attention they need. When we see it as all part of 511 00:25:54,760 --> 00:25:57,620 the same process, there's more likelihood that we're going to 512 00:25:57,630 --> 00:25:58,800 do it. So dedicate. 513 00:25:58,810 --> 00:26:01,220 I often say, use it as one of your files. 514 00:26:01,230 --> 00:26:04,600 If you're in the process and you're going through exams or 515 00:26:04,610 --> 00:26:08,320 the LLM, think about the relationship building as one of 516 00:26:08,330 --> 00:26:11,490 your courses. It's one of not a separate 517 00:26:11,500 --> 00:26:13,800 thing. It's a part of and make the 518 00:26:13,810 --> 00:26:15,980 time. Just as you're scheduling your 519 00:26:15,990 --> 00:26:18,680 research or your class time, schedule it. 520 00:26:18,740 --> 00:26:21,560 Put it in your calendar where you devote and you can determine 521 00:26:21,570 --> 00:26:24,660 what's important and what's so, how much time you can do for it. 522 00:26:24,670 --> 00:26:27,270 Doing some research about people you wanna meet, sending out 523 00:26:27,280 --> 00:26:30,900 those emails, having the coffee chats, following up with them 524 00:26:30,910 --> 00:26:35,560 afterwards, attending events. Actually allot yourself a time. 525 00:26:35,570 --> 00:26:37,980 And I know people are gonna say, Gina, I've got 24 hours in a 526 00:26:37,990 --> 00:26:39,560 day. I need to sleep, I need to eat, 527 00:26:39,620 --> 00:26:42,080 I have my children or my part time job. 528 00:26:42,090 --> 00:26:46,080 And my comment is it doesn't have to be a lot at that stage. 529 00:26:46,090 --> 00:26:49,380 Can it be half an hour? What's the best use of that half 530 00:26:49,390 --> 00:26:51,520 hour? But actually have half an hour. 531 00:26:51,590 --> 00:26:56,000 We brush our teeth, we we put on clothes, we sometimes cook, we 532 00:26:56,010 --> 00:26:58,220 take time to eat. Hopefully we take time to eat 533 00:26:58,230 --> 00:27:02,360 and we do take time to sleep. If we can think about this as as 534 00:27:02,430 --> 00:27:05,040 one of those elements of our life that and I find 535 00:27:05,050 --> 00:27:08,320 relationship building is just sort of a now woven into what I 536 00:27:08,330 --> 00:27:11,250 do part of what I really enjoy. But it wasn't how I started off 537 00:27:11,260 --> 00:27:14,240 thinking about this. It was that extra thing I had to 538 00:27:14,250 --> 00:27:15,670 do. And if you tell me I have to do 539 00:27:15,680 --> 00:27:17,570 something, I don't really necessarily wanna do it, but 540 00:27:17,580 --> 00:27:21,110 when it becomes something that is part of and actually quite 541 00:27:21,120 --> 00:27:22,360 beneficial, I think it's helpful. 542 00:27:22,370 --> 00:27:25,130 And the only other thing that I'll say on that is it's helpful 543 00:27:25,140 --> 00:27:27,730 when you're doing it in a way that is authentic and meaningful 544 00:27:27,740 --> 00:27:31,070 to you. So, you know, I started off by 545 00:27:31,180 --> 00:27:35,130 public speaking and teaching and that was given what I, what was 546 00:27:35,140 --> 00:27:37,370 important to me, that was that made it easier. 547 00:27:37,420 --> 00:27:40,190 I like people and I like celebrating other people. 548 00:27:40,200 --> 00:27:42,850 So attending events is OK. I know some people don't like 549 00:27:42,860 --> 00:27:45,310 doing that. So find the best way possible 550 00:27:45,320 --> 00:27:48,590 for you, but spend time actually dedicating to doing it. 551 00:27:48,600 --> 00:27:51,650 And you said, I think you used the word genuine part, right? 552 00:27:51,660 --> 00:27:54,530 And it's so true. If you're not genuine, if you're 553 00:27:54,540 --> 00:27:57,710 not coming across as genuine, it will be harmful to you and 554 00:27:57,720 --> 00:28:00,920 harmful to not harmful, just not enjoyable for the other person. 555 00:28:00,970 --> 00:28:03,120 It's not about getting a job, Claudio, right? 556 00:28:03,130 --> 00:28:04,520 You've probably heard this before. 557 00:28:04,530 --> 00:28:08,180 It's really about learning about others, sharing about yourself, 558 00:28:08,190 --> 00:28:12,210 building relationships and doing it in a way that feels really, I 559 00:28:12,220 --> 00:28:14,500 was gonna say that feels really natural, understanding that 560 00:28:14,510 --> 00:28:16,800 sometimes we do have to put ourselves up in those 561 00:28:16,850 --> 00:28:19,500 uncomfortable situations. Bring a buddy to an event. 562 00:28:19,550 --> 00:28:22,200 If you don't like going by yourself, do some research 563 00:28:22,210 --> 00:28:23,560 beforehand about who's going to be there. 564 00:28:23,570 --> 00:28:26,620 So there's somebody that's somehow shares a connection that 565 00:28:26,630 --> 00:28:29,000 you do, the school that you enter the area of practice. 566 00:28:29,010 --> 00:28:31,620 Maybe they talk about having a dog, maybe they talk about 567 00:28:31,750 --> 00:28:35,500 liking to travel and and then use that as sort of an entry to 568 00:28:35,510 --> 00:28:38,460 speak to somebody. So don't treat it as a separate 569 00:28:38,510 --> 00:28:40,480 task. Really think about it as 570 00:28:40,550 --> 00:28:43,980 interwoven professional. I'd say part of being a human is 571 00:28:43,990 --> 00:28:47,120 being part of the community and take the long road and think 572 00:28:47,130 --> 00:28:49,760 about the marathon that you're on, not just the I gotta get 573 00:28:49,770 --> 00:28:51,800 this done to cross it off my list. 574 00:28:51,870 --> 00:28:53,070 That's amazing. Thank you. 575 00:28:53,080 --> 00:28:56,340 So. Much for all of that and to 576 00:28:56,350 --> 00:29:01,100 continue this reflection and to those that would like to get to 577 00:29:01,110 --> 00:29:04,300 learn more about your services and what kind of contact they 578 00:29:04,310 --> 00:29:06,700 could have with you, do you know, would you tell us a little 579 00:29:06,710 --> 00:29:10,560 more about the services you provide as a career coach and 580 00:29:10,570 --> 00:29:12,680 also how people could reach out to you? 581 00:29:12,750 --> 00:29:14,050 Absolutely. So what? 582 00:29:14,060 --> 00:29:17,390 I've done since going sort of out on my own is maintain two 583 00:29:17,400 --> 00:29:21,130 different elements of my career coaching and consulting role. 584 00:29:21,180 --> 00:29:24,030 On the one hand are my one-on-one coaching sessions 585 00:29:24,040 --> 00:29:26,530 with individuals and I'll I'll come to that in a second. 586 00:29:26,600 --> 00:29:30,090 But I also very much stay involved with organizations and 587 00:29:30,100 --> 00:29:33,750 doing either keynotes or workshops or projects with them. 588 00:29:33,760 --> 00:29:37,210 So whether it's the hidden gems project for the Law Society or 589 00:29:37,220 --> 00:29:40,310 whether I do workshops for certain organizations, firms or 590 00:29:40,320 --> 00:29:43,810 the civility project that I would encourage all Itls take a 591 00:29:43,820 --> 00:29:46,370 look at from the Toronto Lawyers Association. 592 00:29:46,440 --> 00:29:50,110 Those are sort of things that people can access as resources 593 00:29:50,120 --> 00:29:53,410 or attend as participants. The one-on-one coaching. 594 00:29:53,420 --> 00:29:56,410 And again, I love both. I get energy from the group 595 00:29:56,460 --> 00:29:58,770 material and the projects, and I also get energy from the 596 00:29:58,780 --> 00:30:00,990 one-on-one engagement. When you sit down with one 597 00:30:01,000 --> 00:30:03,830 person, drill down in terms of what's really important to them 598 00:30:03,840 --> 00:30:07,750 and work through a plan, Two things, a plan to how to get to 599 00:30:07,760 --> 00:30:11,030 that and a plan on first of all, what it is and then how to get 600 00:30:11,040 --> 00:30:12,700 to that. And, and then working through 601 00:30:12,710 --> 00:30:14,590 some of the challenges. And oftentimes what we're doing, 602 00:30:14,660 --> 00:30:19,700 our mock mock interviews, mock coffee chats, we're doing mock 603 00:30:19,770 --> 00:30:23,050 difficult conversations sometimes, like if you're in a 604 00:30:23,060 --> 00:30:26,720 particular role and you've got a challenging supervisor, a 605 00:30:26,730 --> 00:30:29,500 challenging colleague, a challenging client, let's talk 606 00:30:29,510 --> 00:30:32,050 through the conversations that you might have with them and how 607 00:30:32,060 --> 00:30:33,900 to better prepare yourself for it. 608 00:30:33,950 --> 00:30:37,620 So everything from the resumes and interviews, even before we 609 00:30:37,630 --> 00:30:40,350 get there, what's important to you, the values and working 610 00:30:40,360 --> 00:30:44,020 through a process. I'm starting to also talk to 611 00:30:44,070 --> 00:30:48,370 more senior lawyers who are into the next transition, which is 612 00:30:48,420 --> 00:30:51,590 whatever they want to call that, that retirement or that next 613 00:30:51,600 --> 00:30:54,410 phase or the reduction. And that's sort of a new area 614 00:30:54,420 --> 00:30:57,430 that I've started to engage with with lawyers about as well. 615 00:30:57,500 --> 00:31:01,350 I TL's and and locally trained lawyers as well. 616 00:31:01,420 --> 00:31:04,050 How can you reach me? There's probably three ways. 617 00:31:04,060 --> 00:31:07,230 One is through my website. I have a contact me there. 618 00:31:07,240 --> 00:31:11,710 Gina alexanders.com, my YouTube channel has a number of things. 619 00:31:11,720 --> 00:31:14,350 One a couple of years ago, I started a book club, career 620 00:31:14,360 --> 00:31:17,090 conversations book club and there's some fabulous authors 621 00:31:17,100 --> 00:31:20,280 with some fabulous books that they've written and we have, you 622 00:31:20,290 --> 00:31:21,970 know, one hour conversations with them. 623 00:31:21,980 --> 00:31:25,470 And if you're an IT L who is already in practice or if you're 624 00:31:25,480 --> 00:31:28,660 not, but the Itls were in practice, each of those sessions 625 00:31:28,720 --> 00:31:34,470 is worth CPD hours for the LSO. So you can free resource to be 626 00:31:34,480 --> 00:31:37,610 able to mark off your CBD hours and learn something and have 627 00:31:37,620 --> 00:31:40,440 some fun conversations. And I also have a particular on 628 00:31:40,450 --> 00:31:43,710 that YouTube channel, which is Gina Alexander's career coach. 629 00:31:43,720 --> 00:31:47,520 If you type that in, or if you search Gina Alexander's career 630 00:31:47,530 --> 00:31:49,140 coach on YouTube, you'll be able to find me. 631 00:31:49,210 --> 00:31:52,200 There's a, there are a couple of sessions for ITL's. 632 00:31:52,210 --> 00:31:53,820 One is learning the legal landscape. 633 00:31:53,830 --> 00:31:56,670 Another is about your resume and cover letter. 634 00:31:56,710 --> 00:31:58,540 So there's some free resources there. 635 00:31:58,550 --> 00:32:01,940 And as you very well know, I'm very regularly on LinkedIn. 636 00:32:01,950 --> 00:32:04,700 I think it's an exceptional platform for us to build those 637 00:32:04,710 --> 00:32:06,740 networks. One of the things that was so 638 00:32:06,750 --> 00:32:10,080 gratifying over the last couple of days at this concert, part of 639 00:32:10,090 --> 00:32:13,800 me at this conference was meeting people who I knew 640 00:32:14,350 --> 00:32:17,720 virtually through LinkedIn. One person, a professor at 641 00:32:17,730 --> 00:32:22,990 Ucalgary getting Christian who I, who I knew from from LinkedIn 642 00:32:23,000 --> 00:32:26,050 for the past, I don't know, 10 years or so, we've never met in 643 00:32:26,060 --> 00:32:28,390 person. And it was such a such a 644 00:32:28,680 --> 00:32:30,670 wonderful opportunity to meet in person. 645 00:32:30,740 --> 00:32:34,850 I'm on LinkedIn and I do hope people reach out and connect. 646 00:32:34,860 --> 00:32:37,830 Those are sort of the three primary ways right now in doing 647 00:32:37,840 --> 00:32:41,030 so amazing and for. Those of you listening to this 648 00:32:41,040 --> 00:32:44,310 episode, you just look at the show descriptions down below and 649 00:32:44,320 --> 00:32:46,970 you'll see all of these links. I'm sure they are there. 650 00:32:46,980 --> 00:32:49,740 And thank you all so much. Thank you enough for sharing 651 00:32:49,750 --> 00:32:54,200 these wonderful ideas, advice and reflections with us today. 652 00:32:54,270 --> 00:32:56,810 And thank you all for taking the time to listen to today's 653 00:32:56,820 --> 00:32:58,900 episode and we'll see you on the next one. 654 00:32:58,970 --> 00:33:00,150 Thank you, Claudia. All the best. 655 00:33:00,230 --> 00:33:00,860 Bye, bye now.