1 00:00:12,880 --> 00:00:14,890 Welcome to Studying Law Around the World. 2 00:00:15,020 --> 00:00:17,870 I'm Claudio Claus. In each episode, I talk with 3 00:00:17,880 --> 00:00:20,850 lawyers, law students, and professors from different parts 4 00:00:20,860 --> 00:00:24,740 of the world to talk about legal education, careers, and what the 5 00:00:24,750 --> 00:00:26,410 profession looks like in real life. 6 00:00:26,420 --> 00:00:29,470 We talk about the hard parts, the surprises, and the decisions 7 00:00:29,480 --> 00:00:32,270 that shaped their paths. Whether you're planning to study 8 00:00:32,280 --> 00:00:35,520 abroad, thinking about working in another legal system, or just 9 00:00:35,530 --> 00:00:39,650 curious about how law works around the world, this podcast 10 00:00:39,660 --> 00:00:44,480 is for you. So many of the guests on this 11 00:00:44,490 --> 00:00:47,780 podcast have talked about how important it is to have strong 12 00:00:47,790 --> 00:00:51,420 writing skills as a lawyer. It's true, written communication 13 00:00:51,470 --> 00:00:55,300 is essential in this profession, but it can also be one of the 14 00:00:55,310 --> 00:00:58,640 trickiest skills to master. If you find your writing feels a 15 00:00:58,650 --> 00:01:01,560 bit clunky, or you're getting a lot of edits on your work, or 16 00:01:01,570 --> 00:01:04,110 perhaps you're breaking into an English speaking jurisdiction 17 00:01:04,120 --> 00:01:07,410 for the first time, Grammatica International can help. 18 00:01:07,660 --> 00:01:10,490 I'm Rebecca Lockwood, the lawyer, mediator and educator 19 00:01:10,500 --> 00:01:13,720 behind Grammatica, and we help lawyers and law students to 20 00:01:13,730 --> 00:01:16,910 write more sharply, speak more clearly, and advance their 21 00:01:16,920 --> 00:01:19,850 careers with group training and one-on-one skills coaching 22 00:01:19,900 --> 00:01:21,910 designed just for legal professionals. 23 00:01:22,320 --> 00:01:25,010 I have worked with so many lawyers like you who are 24 00:01:25,020 --> 00:01:28,590 exceptionally smart, qualified and capable, but need a bit of 25 00:01:28,600 --> 00:01:31,250 guidance to stand out in a competitive legal market. 26 00:01:31,760 --> 00:01:34,130 And I get it myself, having lived and worked in five 27 00:01:34,140 --> 00:01:37,370 countries during my 17 years in law and education. 28 00:01:37,900 --> 00:01:40,030 Whether you're looking to sharpen your writing skills 29 00:01:40,040 --> 00:01:43,520 generally, refresh your CV, or draft an application for a law 30 00:01:43,530 --> 00:01:48,280 program, Grammatica can help. Visit gramatica.co to learn 31 00:01:48,290 --> 00:01:55,610 more. Today I have the opportunity to 32 00:01:55,620 --> 00:01:59,230 host Neil Montgomery. He is a graduate of the 33 00:01:59,240 --> 00:02:02,610 University of Sao Paulo in Brazil, where he studied both 34 00:02:02,780 --> 00:02:05,990 Bachelors of Laws and a Masters in International Law. 35 00:02:06,040 --> 00:02:10,610 He was admitted to the bar in Brazilian 97 and has since 36 00:02:10,780 --> 00:02:14,310 worked in different law firms, has worked in an English law 37 00:02:14,320 --> 00:02:19,770 firm, and he's now the founder and CEO of his own firm, 38 00:02:20,040 --> 00:02:22,930 Montgomery. So I wanted to thank you so much 39 00:02:22,940 --> 00:02:26,360 for coming to the podcast, for being willing to join us today, 40 00:02:26,370 --> 00:02:28,510 and you'll thank you so much for being here today. 41 00:02:28,580 --> 00:02:30,490 Thank you, Claudia. It's a pleasure to be here. 42 00:02:30,540 --> 00:02:33,070 Really appreciate it. And you started an interview 43 00:02:33,080 --> 00:02:34,740 today. I'd love for you to introduce 44 00:02:34,750 --> 00:02:37,860 yourself to our audience. So I just had a few highlights, 45 00:02:37,990 --> 00:02:40,910 but I'm sure that that there's a lot more where that comes from. 46 00:02:40,970 --> 00:02:44,820 OK, well certainly despite my name, I am Brazilian. 47 00:02:44,870 --> 00:02:48,640 I was born in Rio de Janeiro, my father is from Scotland, my 48 00:02:48,650 --> 00:02:51,260 mother was Brazilian. They met in Saint Paul in the 49 00:02:51,270 --> 00:02:55,750 70s and have therefore dual national and both Brazilian 50 00:02:55,930 --> 00:02:58,040 because I was born in Brazil, but my dad being. 51 00:02:58,050 --> 00:03:00,580 British. I also have a British passport. 52 00:03:00,630 --> 00:03:03,480 I have lived in the UK twice in my life. 53 00:03:03,530 --> 00:03:06,260 When I was a. Kid, I lived a few months in a. 54 00:03:06,270 --> 00:03:08,000 Place called Solihull just outside. 55 00:03:08,010 --> 00:03:11,360 Of Birmingham in England and then three years in Aberdeen, 56 00:03:11,370 --> 00:03:14,210 Scotland, that's where. Maybe I acquired a little bit of 57 00:03:14,220 --> 00:03:16,480 a. Scottish accent which sticks. 58 00:03:16,600 --> 00:03:19,190 To this date. And then during my adult life. 59 00:03:19,240 --> 00:03:21,770 I also. Lived and worked as a in London, 60 00:03:21,920 --> 00:03:25,750 as a lawyer, as a foreign associate and so I left Brazil 61 00:03:25,760 --> 00:03:27,110 when I was 4. Returned. 62 00:03:27,120 --> 00:03:30,810 When I was 14. After Scotland, I lived six 63 00:03:30,820 --> 00:03:33,210 years in Lima. Peru, so that's where. 64 00:03:33,220 --> 00:03:35,710 I learned Spanish as well, so I've been around a little bit 65 00:03:35,720 --> 00:03:37,990 and I think the. Fact that I have. 66 00:03:38,000 --> 00:03:41,030 Traveled internationally has prepared me to be an 67 00:03:41,040 --> 00:03:43,630 international lawyer, and that's what I do nowadays. 68 00:03:43,640 --> 00:03:45,690 And Montgomery? Which as you said. 69 00:03:45,760 --> 00:03:47,850 Is the the law firm I founded here in Sao? 70 00:03:47,860 --> 00:03:51,060 Paulo specializes. In advising foreign clients 71 00:03:51,070 --> 00:03:52,390 doing business in. Brazil so. 72 00:03:52,460 --> 00:03:56,150 The fact that I moved around, learned several languages, and 73 00:03:56,160 --> 00:03:58,630 have a dual nationality prepared me. 74 00:03:58,640 --> 00:04:00,420 To do what I do today. Amazing. 75 00:04:00,430 --> 00:04:04,640 And as we were speaking in preparation for this podcast, 76 00:04:04,710 --> 00:04:07,420 I've heard a few of your interviews in the past and I 77 00:04:07,630 --> 00:04:11,060 really followed your career with a lot of enthusiasm. 78 00:04:11,130 --> 00:04:14,270 And I've heard of very interesting story about, you 79 00:04:14,280 --> 00:04:17,320 know, early in your career when you were working for a Brazilian 80 00:04:17,329 --> 00:04:22,320 firm and and you got the chance to travel to London and then 81 00:04:22,330 --> 00:04:25,310 basically rides that experience. So I'd love to hear a little 82 00:04:25,320 --> 00:04:27,840 more about that experience, and I think our audience would 83 00:04:27,850 --> 00:04:30,950 really appreciate that one. It wasn't so. 84 00:04:30,960 --> 00:04:35,640 Early in my career it was around I think 1006. 85 00:04:36,750 --> 00:04:40,390 So next year's 20th anniversary, therefore. 86 00:04:40,400 --> 00:04:44,920 And I had already been a lawyer for nearly ten years. 87 00:04:44,930 --> 00:04:47,490 Because as you said. I enrolled with the bar in Saint 88 00:04:47,500 --> 00:04:52,490 Paul in 1987, graduated 1986. So it was around about 10 years. 89 00:04:52,500 --> 00:04:57,330 I was at the time a very senior associate at a large Brazilian 90 00:04:57,340 --> 00:05:00,750 law firm and I was about to become an equity partner. 91 00:05:01,140 --> 00:05:03,570 And at the time I I knew. That. 92 00:05:03,660 --> 00:05:06,890 To become an equity partner, I needed to have a client base. 93 00:05:06,940 --> 00:05:09,610 So the. Way that I devised to start 94 00:05:09,620 --> 00:05:12,490 getting my own clients was to put on. 95 00:05:12,680 --> 00:05:15,370 What I call? The London Roadshow at the firm 96 00:05:15,380 --> 00:05:16,910 I worked. With at the the. 97 00:05:16,920 --> 00:05:21,580 Time always been more inclined with North America, especially 98 00:05:21,590 --> 00:05:25,740 the United States, and had not. Looked so closely to Europe a 99 00:05:25,750 --> 00:05:28,060 few years. Early when earlier when I was 100 00:05:28,070 --> 00:05:32,510 working for an English law firm in London, I, I had the 101 00:05:32,520 --> 00:05:35,580 experience for the first time of working as an international 102 00:05:35,590 --> 00:05:39,680 lawyer at a major firm. I made lots of good contacts 103 00:05:39,690 --> 00:05:42,780 when I returned to Brazil and then I, I moved to this other 104 00:05:42,790 --> 00:05:45,980 firm. I said now is the time to maybe 105 00:05:45,990 --> 00:05:49,520 look not to North America, but to Europe and more closely and 106 00:05:49,530 --> 00:05:51,560 specifically to London, not only. 107 00:05:51,570 --> 00:05:53,240 Because I had. Worked in London. 108 00:05:53,390 --> 00:05:58,700 Because also I've always. Seen London as probably the main 109 00:05:58,810 --> 00:06:01,720 International Centre. For legal services. 110 00:06:01,730 --> 00:06:04,630 In the world will definitely London was going to be. 111 00:06:04,680 --> 00:06:07,870 A very good place. To try and. 112 00:06:07,920 --> 00:06:11,410 Let's say harvest maybe? The first seeds planted. 113 00:06:11,420 --> 00:06:15,540 Several years ago so. At the time I went to the the 114 00:06:15,550 --> 00:06:17,830 managing partner of the firm or. Was. 115 00:06:17,920 --> 00:06:20,320 I asked. For frozen dollar budget for one 116 00:06:20,330 --> 00:06:24,270 week in London to visit law firms in the City of London. 117 00:06:24,340 --> 00:06:27,450 Those law firms tend to be quite large firms, and they have a lot 118 00:06:27,460 --> 00:06:28,730 of. International practice. 119 00:06:28,840 --> 00:06:32,910 So what I did was to access the websites of each of those. 120 00:06:32,920 --> 00:06:34,960 Law firms identify who was the manager and. 121 00:06:34,970 --> 00:06:37,870 Partner or who was? The partner responsible for 122 00:06:37,920 --> 00:06:40,310 their international practice introduce. 123 00:06:40,320 --> 00:06:42,650 Myself, who I was, who the firm was, what we. 124 00:06:42,660 --> 00:06:46,570 Did and to see? Whether they would have. 45 125 00:06:46,640 --> 00:06:50,790 minutes to an hour to see me. So when I went to the management 126 00:06:50,800 --> 00:06:54,710 part and asked for this $5000 budget, several weeks passed 127 00:06:55,140 --> 00:06:58,520 after then and there was no response and. 128 00:06:58,530 --> 00:07:01,550 So more or less. After a month I went up to him 129 00:07:01,560 --> 00:07:03,000 and said. Now do we have a? 130 00:07:03,050 --> 00:07:05,760 A response from the board and he said. 131 00:07:05,770 --> 00:07:07,680 Well, the board is a bit skeptic. 132 00:07:07,730 --> 00:07:10,800 They don't really believe in the outcomes of these. 133 00:07:10,810 --> 00:07:13,730 Types of exercises we've. Done them in the past and they 134 00:07:13,740 --> 00:07:16,780 haven't produced the clients that we want and so it's a bit. 135 00:07:16,790 --> 00:07:19,600 Difficult maybe to get this approved at the board. 136 00:07:19,770 --> 00:07:22,420 Well, I turned to him then, and I think he must have been quite 137 00:07:22,430 --> 00:07:23,540 surprised. With what I had. 138 00:07:23,550 --> 00:07:28,480 To say, and I said look no problem, I have my my annual 139 00:07:28,490 --> 00:07:30,310 leave coming up. I'll take a week. 140 00:07:30,320 --> 00:07:33,080 Off my holidays. And I will self. 141 00:07:33,090 --> 00:07:38,080 Fund myself, I'll take $5000 from my bank account and I'm 142 00:07:38,090 --> 00:07:42,070 sure that I'll make this happen. And so I think you must have 143 00:07:42,080 --> 00:07:46,260 been quite surprised with the determination I had that when I 144 00:07:46,300 --> 00:07:48,210 when I contacted these law firms. 145 00:07:48,580 --> 00:07:50,830 Because I had a a tight budget, right? 146 00:07:50,900 --> 00:07:53,680 I would send an e-mail introducing myself, introducing 147 00:07:53,690 --> 00:07:57,590 the firm, and I would give them a specific date and a specific 148 00:07:57,600 --> 00:08:00,390 time that would like them to welcome. 149 00:08:00,460 --> 00:08:02,430 Me to their offices, because I was. 150 00:08:02,440 --> 00:08:06,050 Going to do everything using the London Underground and so. 151 00:08:06,120 --> 00:08:09,430 I would do it per region every day, so I had. 152 00:08:09,480 --> 00:08:11,890 More or less like. I mapped. 153 00:08:11,900 --> 00:08:13,970 I got a big. Map of London, the City of 154 00:08:13,980 --> 00:08:15,910 London. I pinpointed where. 155 00:08:15,920 --> 00:08:19,570 All the law firms. Were and then I I managed to 156 00:08:19,640 --> 00:08:22,950 confirm I think there were eight meetings. 157 00:08:23,120 --> 00:08:26,740 Per day, every day for five. Days at the time. 158 00:08:26,750 --> 00:08:30,080 This is going back to 2006 or well before the pandemic. 159 00:08:30,210 --> 00:08:34,520 Everybody was working at the office, not working from home, 160 00:08:34,590 --> 00:08:38,000 so I managed to pack in 40 meetings. 161 00:08:38,010 --> 00:08:40,860 At. 40 different law firms in London. 162 00:08:41,169 --> 00:08:43,880 Everyone welcomed me exceptionally well. 163 00:08:43,890 --> 00:08:47,680 Most of them had told me that it was the first time ever that a 164 00:08:47,690 --> 00:08:49,760 Brazilian. Lawyer had literally. 165 00:08:49,770 --> 00:08:53,220 Knocked on their door and so they were very interested in 166 00:08:53,270 --> 00:08:56,460 knowing more about myself, knowing more about my firm. 167 00:08:56,510 --> 00:09:00,540 And I showed that we had a sophisticated practice that. 168 00:09:00,630 --> 00:09:03,760 The common denominator? That I had with the people who. 169 00:09:03,770 --> 00:09:06,300 Welcomed me. Was, of course, the British. 170 00:09:06,380 --> 00:09:09,280 Nationality as well, and the language and the cultural ties. 171 00:09:09,290 --> 00:09:12,590 And I know that when I got to Wednesday in the middle. 172 00:09:12,600 --> 00:09:16,540 Of the week I had walked. So much cloudier, but so much up 173 00:09:16,550 --> 00:09:19,460 and down stairs and the Underground and the streets of 174 00:09:19,470 --> 00:09:21,420 London that my. Feet. 175 00:09:21,430 --> 00:09:25,430 Were literally in blisters and I remember arriving back at the. 176 00:09:25,440 --> 00:09:30,000 Hotel I had reserved a a well located but a three. 177 00:09:30,010 --> 00:09:32,980 Star apart. Hotel style hotel. 178 00:09:33,070 --> 00:09:36,980 And I took out all the bandages and had to bandage my feet. 179 00:09:36,990 --> 00:09:39,560 Because of the blisters, but the next. 180 00:09:39,570 --> 00:09:41,580 Two days, Thursday and Friday, I made. 181 00:09:41,590 --> 00:09:44,000 It with a little. Bit of pain of course, but I 182 00:09:44,010 --> 00:09:47,180 made it to all my meetings and when I returned over the 183 00:09:47,190 --> 00:09:48,680 weekend. Back to Sao Paulo. 184 00:09:48,730 --> 00:09:52,810 I returned with the sensation of mission accomplished. 185 00:09:52,860 --> 00:09:56,670 And this happened not, not very quickly, but in the months 186 00:09:56,680 --> 00:09:59,450 following, maybe in the 12 months following my trip to 187 00:09:59,460 --> 00:10:02,590 London, I got many referrals from many. 188 00:10:02,600 --> 00:10:04,870 Of the law firms. I had visited and. 189 00:10:04,880 --> 00:10:09,690 While I believe I. Didn't spend $5000 at the end 190 00:10:09,700 --> 00:10:12,310 because I was very economical after one year. 191 00:10:12,500 --> 00:10:18,070 The referrals I received had generated about 50. $1000 in 192 00:10:18,080 --> 00:10:20,330 terms. Of legal fees so I I. 193 00:10:20,340 --> 00:10:23,670 Proved my point that. I was capable of. 194 00:10:23,680 --> 00:10:27,050 Obtaining clients Damonte way, just going out there and 195 00:10:27,060 --> 00:10:31,370 knocking on the doors and really doing it wholeheartedly. 196 00:10:31,420 --> 00:10:34,220 Years later when I. Left the firm my client. 197 00:10:34,230 --> 00:10:37,040 Portfolio was already worth. Millions. 198 00:10:37,050 --> 00:10:39,560 And that allowed. Me to take. 199 00:10:39,750 --> 00:10:43,520 The even bolder step of setting up my own law firm. 200 00:10:43,570 --> 00:10:46,360 Because I already had. A very good client base. 201 00:10:47,390 --> 00:10:50,580 It's something that I did 20 years ago. 202 00:10:50,590 --> 00:10:55,380 I'm 51 today so I just turned. 30 So very, very, let's say 203 00:10:55,390 --> 00:10:57,140 early. In one's life, professional 204 00:10:57,150 --> 00:10:59,490 life, but I think it was. One of the best. 205 00:10:59,500 --> 00:11:03,840 Decisions I ever took because I'm here now, today with my own 206 00:11:03,850 --> 00:11:07,580 firm, because I planted those seeds back then. 207 00:11:08,150 --> 00:11:10,720 And I really. Was determined. 208 00:11:10,990 --> 00:11:13,600 I was resilient. I was methodical. 209 00:11:13,730 --> 00:11:16,500 I was consistent. Because year after year. 210 00:11:16,620 --> 00:11:20,320 I also returned to London to visit not only the same firms 211 00:11:20,330 --> 00:11:24,200 but other new firms during my journey as well, and that is 212 00:11:24,210 --> 00:11:26,140 what? Allowed me to. 213 00:11:26,210 --> 00:11:29,900 Plant the seeds for a future firm with my own name. 214 00:11:29,970 --> 00:11:31,740 That's amazing. What a story. 215 00:11:32,270 --> 00:11:36,980 I'm generally happy to to get to listen to it and to get to have 216 00:11:36,990 --> 00:11:40,640 it here in the podcast because it's just incredible what to do 217 00:11:40,650 --> 00:11:42,940 there. And you know, more and more in 218 00:11:42,950 --> 00:11:45,180 the last two episodes, I actually spoke to different 219 00:11:45,190 --> 00:11:47,220 lawyers about different approaches to business. 220 00:11:47,890 --> 00:11:51,460 And oftentimes we'll be very, you know, we'll hear about a few 221 00:11:51,470 --> 00:11:54,700 different tips and people will say very, you know, low 222 00:11:54,710 --> 00:11:58,640 involvement, kind of tips of how to to do business development be 223 00:11:58,710 --> 00:12:01,190 saying you nurture the relationships, reach out to 224 00:12:01,200 --> 00:12:03,790 people that you've talked in the past update and let them know 225 00:12:03,800 --> 00:12:06,810 what you're doing these days. But I love this approach of 226 00:12:06,820 --> 00:12:10,250 actually going and meeting with people and, and, you know, 227 00:12:10,260 --> 00:12:12,270 having a roadshow, as you said, I loved it. 228 00:12:12,280 --> 00:12:14,170 Yeah. I'd love to, to hear a little 229 00:12:14,180 --> 00:12:16,830 bit about, you know, if you could advise a young lawyer in 230 00:12:16,840 --> 00:12:20,970 2025 in regards to business development to, to really 231 00:12:20,980 --> 00:12:23,610 building that network and, and book of business. 232 00:12:23,680 --> 00:12:26,590 What would you suggest? Well, I think one thing I've 233 00:12:26,600 --> 00:12:28,850 learned in over or nearly 30 years. 234 00:12:28,860 --> 00:12:29,970 Of. Lauren, I think the. 235 00:12:29,980 --> 00:12:34,490 Keyword is visibility. If there's one word and 1 tip I 236 00:12:34,500 --> 00:12:37,420 would give any lawyer or any professional is. 237 00:12:37,430 --> 00:12:38,710 For you to have. Visibility. 238 00:12:38,720 --> 00:12:41,830 Nowadays, potentially to have. Visibility. 239 00:12:41,920 --> 00:12:43,560 It may. Be a bit easier with all the 240 00:12:43,570 --> 00:12:46,900 technologies. We have social media, a video, 241 00:12:46,910 --> 00:12:50,850 conferences. I think it's potentially easier. 242 00:12:50,910 --> 00:12:54,380 To scale visibility. Back in the day 20 years ago, 243 00:12:54,430 --> 00:12:57,840 visibility meant knocking on. Doors, as you saw, but I think 244 00:12:57,850 --> 00:13:00,740 visibility. Is, especially if you want to 245 00:13:00,750 --> 00:13:02,200 have an. International Career. 246 00:13:02,270 --> 00:13:05,260 Is what makes you stand out, and you must stand out not only 247 00:13:05,270 --> 00:13:06,540 because. You're visible, but you're 248 00:13:06,550 --> 00:13:09,140 visible for the best. Reasons of course so. 249 00:13:09,210 --> 00:13:12,680 You have to be visible. Because you are seen. 250 00:13:12,770 --> 00:13:14,140 As a very good. Professional. 251 00:13:14,150 --> 00:13:16,220 And what you do? So somebody who knows? 252 00:13:16,230 --> 00:13:19,440 What you're doing somebody who is reliable, who can be trusted. 253 00:13:19,450 --> 00:13:22,100 Somebody who is nice as well. Because people like doing 254 00:13:22,110 --> 00:13:24,400 business with people they like. So I. 255 00:13:24,410 --> 00:13:26,540 Think you need? To show yourself as. 256 00:13:26,550 --> 00:13:30,590 Somebody who is a nice person, an interesting person. 257 00:13:30,700 --> 00:13:32,690 Who has? Tumble as well. 258 00:13:32,700 --> 00:13:35,410 I think you need to be humble always, every time. 259 00:13:35,480 --> 00:13:38,530 Regardless of what? Pinnacles you reach in your 260 00:13:38,580 --> 00:13:41,760 career, I think you need to always maintain your feet on the 261 00:13:41,770 --> 00:13:44,210 ground and be humble and be grateful for all the 262 00:13:44,220 --> 00:13:46,770 achievements you've. You've made over your your 263 00:13:46,780 --> 00:13:53,260 career, so visibility. For me has meant visiting firms, 264 00:13:53,270 --> 00:13:55,280 clients around the world. They do travel quite. 265 00:13:55,290 --> 00:14:01,100 Extensively it is also meant speaking at conferences, it in 266 00:14:01,110 --> 00:14:04,380 books, written articles, support in podcasts and other. 267 00:14:04,390 --> 00:14:07,340 Types of videos. This weekend, for example, I 268 00:14:07,350 --> 00:14:09,260 have an. Article to write. 269 00:14:09,550 --> 00:14:12,260 On the developments of gaming law in Brazil, which is 1 of. 270 00:14:12,270 --> 00:14:15,160 My practice areas so. I'm going to use the time that 271 00:14:15,170 --> 00:14:19,560 my, my wife and my, my eldest daughter, they're going to show 272 00:14:19,630 --> 00:14:22,920 in Sao Paulo tomorrow and I'll be staying at home right in my. 273 00:14:22,930 --> 00:14:25,290 Article SO. One thing also that I can give 274 00:14:25,300 --> 00:14:29,720 us a tip is that nothing comes free, everything takes. 275 00:14:30,070 --> 00:14:32,660 A lot of work, a lot of effort, a lot of. 276 00:14:32,670 --> 00:14:36,480 Time, a lot of investment, so one thing that I think. 277 00:14:36,570 --> 00:14:40,220 I see is a bit difficult. For the younger generations. 278 00:14:40,910 --> 00:14:43,900 Is is this? That things do take a lot of 279 00:14:43,910 --> 00:14:46,740 effort and take time. There are no shortcuts. 280 00:14:47,010 --> 00:14:51,360 If you wanna really, well, long lasting career, it's something 281 00:14:51,370 --> 00:14:55,000 that takes time and visibility is something that of course 282 00:14:55,010 --> 00:14:57,660 ultimately you will achieve. You have to keep it as. 283 00:14:57,670 --> 00:15:02,420 Well, you cannot, let's say, simply rest on your laurels. 284 00:15:02,490 --> 00:15:05,700 You have to continue doing it. You have to be consistent. 285 00:15:05,770 --> 00:15:08,360 You have to be focused. You have to be determined so it 286 00:15:08,370 --> 00:15:09,820 is. It does make life. 287 00:15:09,830 --> 00:15:12,940 Very intense, and I think another thing is to have balance 288 00:15:12,950 --> 00:15:15,940 in one's life, not only professionally but personally. 289 00:15:15,950 --> 00:15:19,060 As well. So despite I have always worked 290 00:15:19,070 --> 00:15:22,300 a lot, but I've always dedicated. 291 00:15:22,770 --> 00:15:26,170 A lot of time dial to my family. I have a wife. 292 00:15:26,180 --> 00:15:27,640 I have two daughters. You can. 293 00:15:27,650 --> 00:15:29,940 See the photographs. Of them when they were much 294 00:15:29,950 --> 00:15:33,780 younger behind me. I've been married now for 25. 295 00:15:33,790 --> 00:15:36,140 Years my. Eldest daughter is 21, my 296 00:15:36,150 --> 00:15:41,850 youngest is 17, approaching 18 and I think being a. 297 00:15:42,240 --> 00:15:44,690 A. Good husband, a good father, 298 00:15:44,920 --> 00:15:48,970 teaching good stuff to our kids and being present really makes a 299 00:15:48,980 --> 00:15:50,810 difference as well. Well, I do. 300 00:15:50,820 --> 00:15:53,950 Work a lot and my family knows that and and really has 301 00:15:53,960 --> 00:15:57,390 supported me all along. They also know that when I'm 302 00:15:57,400 --> 00:15:59,030 with them, I'm with them as well. 303 00:15:59,200 --> 00:16:03,670 So I think having balance both in your personal life and your 304 00:16:03,680 --> 00:16:05,850 professional life does make a difference. 305 00:16:05,860 --> 00:16:10,090 You do need to excel in your profession, in your career you 306 00:16:10,100 --> 00:16:12,290 do need. To have full support. 307 00:16:12,300 --> 00:16:13,830 From home. Fantastic. 308 00:16:13,840 --> 00:16:17,470 Those are really good piece of advice here, talking about 309 00:16:17,580 --> 00:16:21,170 leadership and and really building your own firm as well. 310 00:16:21,460 --> 00:16:23,980 I'd love to hear a little more about that thought process. 311 00:16:24,050 --> 00:16:27,170 So you, you said that, you know, building that book of business, 312 00:16:27,180 --> 00:16:28,490 you were already a senior lawyer. 313 00:16:28,500 --> 00:16:31,190 So you definitely knew you already had the clients, you 314 00:16:31,200 --> 00:16:33,650 already had the knowledge of the law as well. 315 00:16:33,700 --> 00:16:37,290 But were there a few, you know, specific things that you learned 316 00:16:37,300 --> 00:16:40,090 as you were building your firm and now as well as you continue 317 00:16:40,100 --> 00:16:42,370 to lead it? Are there a few specific 318 00:16:42,380 --> 00:16:45,550 approaches that you are methodical on continuing to 319 00:16:45,560 --> 00:16:47,910 improve your practice? What are some of your thoughts 320 00:16:47,920 --> 00:16:50,200 on that? OK, well, Gwen, just. 321 00:16:50,210 --> 00:16:52,670 Back to the roadshow in order for you to be. 322 00:16:52,940 --> 00:16:57,150 A good salesperson, you need to know your stuff, so you need to 323 00:16:57,160 --> 00:16:59,060 know what you're selling. So in order. 324 00:16:59,070 --> 00:17:02,130 To be a good sales lawyer. You need to be a good lawyer in 325 00:17:02,140 --> 00:17:04,930 the 1st place. Working with foreign clients has 326 00:17:04,940 --> 00:17:08,460 really made me. Have a very broad practice. 327 00:17:08,470 --> 00:17:10,970 So nowadays. While I started as. 328 00:17:10,980 --> 00:17:13,960 A corporate manna lawyer and a large Brazilian firm. 329 00:17:14,030 --> 00:17:17,160 Back in 1996, when I was graduating from law school, 330 00:17:17,230 --> 00:17:20,760 working with foreign clients doing business in Brazil really 331 00:17:20,810 --> 00:17:23,829 helped me enlarge the scope. Of work I do. 332 00:17:23,890 --> 00:17:28,740 So nowadays it's not only corporate contracts, it's also M 333 00:17:28,750 --> 00:17:34,490 and A litigation, employment tax, IP and other specialisms. 334 00:17:34,500 --> 00:17:38,160 That I also over the years. Develop in for example. 335 00:17:38,170 --> 00:17:41,380 The aviation law. And gaming law as in gambling. 336 00:17:41,450 --> 00:17:46,040 So I think being a well-rounded lawyer, knowing the law. 337 00:17:46,090 --> 00:17:49,610 It's easier for you to sell your services. 338 00:17:49,620 --> 00:17:54,550 And this led also. 2A business. Model that I nicknamed and 339 00:17:54,560 --> 00:17:58,930 branded Lean full service where? With less lawyers you can 340 00:17:58,940 --> 00:18:00,950 provide a full service. To your clients. 341 00:18:00,960 --> 00:18:06,010 Because each lawyer practices at least two or three areas of law, 342 00:18:06,020 --> 00:18:08,470 I here at. The firm get involved in all 343 00:18:08,480 --> 00:18:12,830 areas and that has given me a lot of knowledge and all of a 344 00:18:12,840 --> 00:18:16,550 lot of experience and this is. The heart of what I call. 345 00:18:16,720 --> 00:18:19,550 Lean full service. It's like a general. 346 00:18:19,560 --> 00:18:22,790 Counsel in private practice where you are not only 347 00:18:22,800 --> 00:18:26,070 superficial in the areas you know well. 348 00:18:26,120 --> 00:18:29,030 You are a specialist, so. I can sit down. 349 00:18:29,040 --> 00:18:31,650 At a table after. Being a lawyer for nearly 30 350 00:18:31,660 --> 00:18:34,610 years, as I said and. Discuss several. 351 00:18:34,620 --> 00:18:38,840 Different legal topics 1A par with lawyers from other firms 352 00:18:38,850 --> 00:18:40,560 that are specialists in their area. 353 00:18:40,630 --> 00:18:43,880 And so I think that has made me a very good salesperson as well 354 00:18:43,890 --> 00:18:46,100 because I know what I'm talking about. 355 00:18:46,190 --> 00:18:51,300 And here at the firm when I founded Montgomery in 2013 under 356 00:18:51,310 --> 00:18:54,480 the lean full service model that has given us. 357 00:18:54,630 --> 00:18:58,440 A very good case. Study and a lot of success 358 00:18:58,750 --> 00:19:00,780 because companies nowadays. They. 359 00:19:00,790 --> 00:19:03,040 All operate under tighter. Budgets. 360 00:19:03,120 --> 00:19:05,580 They wanna personalized service. And they want a. 361 00:19:05,590 --> 00:19:08,720 Cheaper service so with less cost because. 362 00:19:08,790 --> 00:19:11,980 We increase efficiencies. By having less lawyers do the 363 00:19:11,990 --> 00:19:15,240 full service. We can be more personalized, we 364 00:19:15,250 --> 00:19:17,620 can be more cost. Effective as well. 365 00:19:17,690 --> 00:19:20,310 And so that unites. Off of the factors. 366 00:19:20,320 --> 00:19:22,950 Needed for a firm like. Ours to succeed. 367 00:19:23,060 --> 00:19:24,890 We are now. Past our 12th. 368 00:19:24,940 --> 00:19:28,960 Anniversary next year we'll turn 13 and hopefully there will be 369 00:19:28,970 --> 00:19:32,730 many years to come and as the leader of the firm, if there's 370 00:19:32,740 --> 00:19:35,650 something. That I always like to do is to 371 00:19:35,660 --> 00:19:38,830 lead by. Example and the top biller and 372 00:19:38,840 --> 00:19:41,270 have been for many years. So despite all the traveling. 373 00:19:41,440 --> 00:19:44,150 All the business. Development, all the management, 374 00:19:44,200 --> 00:19:46,760 everything. I have still kept. 375 00:19:46,770 --> 00:19:51,130 Myself at the top of my internal ranking here being the top 376 00:19:51,140 --> 00:19:53,070 biller in terms of. Billable hours. 377 00:19:53,080 --> 00:19:57,470 And I like to inspire the younger generation and those who 378 00:19:57,480 --> 00:20:00,110 work alongside me to do the same. 379 00:20:00,360 --> 00:20:02,890 I'm always here early on one of. The first to. 380 00:20:03,020 --> 00:20:05,280 They arrive in the morning, one of the last. 381 00:20:05,290 --> 00:20:07,120 To leave practically every day I. 382 00:20:07,130 --> 00:20:09,920 Continue at home as well after dinner with my family. 383 00:20:09,990 --> 00:20:13,640 But it's the real resilience, the consistency that gets. 384 00:20:13,650 --> 00:20:19,330 You to the top so. From I have obtained the 385 00:20:19,340 --> 00:20:23,030 knowledge I've obtained, let's say the experience and I like to 386 00:20:23,040 --> 00:20:27,130 lead by example. So I want everyone who is 387 00:20:27,140 --> 00:20:30,120 working with me see. Well, if Neil has the management 388 00:20:30,130 --> 00:20:33,770 partner can do all everything he does, then there's no excuse for 389 00:20:33,780 --> 00:20:37,330 me not to do the same, right? And life is intense, I. 390 00:20:37,340 --> 00:20:40,590 Agree with that, but that's. What makes life very rewarding 391 00:20:40,600 --> 00:20:42,910 as well? I've met so many different 392 00:20:42,920 --> 00:20:45,460 people from around the world, many interesting. 393 00:20:45,470 --> 00:20:48,090 People like yourself, Claudio, who told me a little. 394 00:20:48,100 --> 00:20:49,800 Bit about your background before we started. 395 00:20:49,810 --> 00:20:51,920 This podcast. And I think if. 396 00:20:51,930 --> 00:20:55,850 You are a good person. And you do whatever you can do. 397 00:20:56,080 --> 00:20:59,890 To do good to at. Least from your own perspective, 398 00:20:59,940 --> 00:21:01,910 make. The world a better place? 399 00:21:02,010 --> 00:21:04,730 I think that's what makes the difference and I believe. 400 00:21:04,790 --> 00:21:07,020 That if you do. Good, good comes back. 401 00:21:07,030 --> 00:21:08,960 To you as well. And I have been. 402 00:21:08,970 --> 00:21:12,700 Grateful over the years. Doing the good and transforming 403 00:21:12,710 --> 00:21:16,200 peoples lives because that is also something that I believe 404 00:21:16,210 --> 00:21:17,960 Montgomery will. Leave as a legacy. 405 00:21:18,030 --> 00:21:20,050 I'm very well known in the market. 406 00:21:20,060 --> 00:21:23,840 It can be a problem sometimes because headhunters like to pick 407 00:21:24,030 --> 00:21:26,740 on our colleagues, but they know. 408 00:21:26,750 --> 00:21:30,400 That whoever has worked. At Montgomery is going to be a 409 00:21:30,410 --> 00:21:32,120 hell of a. Good lawyer because. 410 00:21:32,130 --> 00:21:36,040 We take the time, the patience to train and to. 411 00:21:36,050 --> 00:21:40,440 Prepare lawyers for. The legal market, not only in. 412 00:21:40,450 --> 00:21:45,990 Brazil, but worldwide so. I am very proud of our legacy in 413 00:21:46,000 --> 00:21:48,810 transforming and. Very positively. 414 00:21:48,880 --> 00:21:52,170 Peoples life lives professionally and not only 415 00:21:52,180 --> 00:21:54,050 that. Our firm has always. 416 00:21:54,060 --> 00:21:57,430 Been predominantly female and female lawyers have thrived. 417 00:21:57,440 --> 00:21:59,400 In their careers here. They have become. 418 00:21:59,410 --> 00:22:02,570 Mothers as well. Some have had one. 2 or even 419 00:22:02,580 --> 00:22:04,790 more. Children, and this has been. 420 00:22:04,900 --> 00:22:08,010 Let's say a safe. Birth for them to grow their. 421 00:22:08,020 --> 00:22:11,390 Families because life as. A a lawyer and a. 422 00:22:11,400 --> 00:22:12,730 Full service law. Firm can. 423 00:22:12,740 --> 00:22:16,010 Be very, very. Daunt and very difficult and 424 00:22:16,020 --> 00:22:17,310 I'm. Glad to say here. 425 00:22:17,370 --> 00:22:22,250 That we may be an Oasis within the legal market in Brazil and 426 00:22:22,260 --> 00:22:25,310 specifically in Sao Paulo, which is probably one of the toughest 427 00:22:25,320 --> 00:22:28,130 in. Brazil because of the, let's 428 00:22:28,140 --> 00:22:29,990 say. The balance. 429 00:22:30,000 --> 00:22:31,960 You have in your. Life both in and. 430 00:22:31,970 --> 00:22:34,340 Out of the firm. So that is also. 431 00:22:34,350 --> 00:22:37,100 Something very positive. That I'm very proud of. 432 00:22:37,110 --> 00:22:40,510 Here at Montgomery. I have one equity partner who is 433 00:22:40,570 --> 00:22:43,500 a female labour and employment lawyer. 434 00:22:43,510 --> 00:22:46,340 Dial She has had her child as well. 435 00:22:46,390 --> 00:22:50,140 She may be thinking of having another one in the near future. 436 00:22:50,150 --> 00:22:52,120 And we're very. Proud of. 437 00:22:52,130 --> 00:22:56,190 What we can leave, not only in terms of the professional 438 00:22:56,250 --> 00:22:58,820 changes we can make to 1's. Life, but the personal. 439 00:22:58,830 --> 00:23:00,560 Changes as well. Amazing. 440 00:23:00,610 --> 00:23:02,780 Well, that's that's quite inspiring to hear. 441 00:23:02,790 --> 00:23:06,940 And going forward here to wrap up today's episode, actually, I 442 00:23:06,950 --> 00:23:10,940 wanted to hear a little more about that, that continuance of 443 00:23:10,950 --> 00:23:14,140 business development. So you've shared your incredible 444 00:23:14,240 --> 00:23:17,770 story, you've shared some about your leadership style and how 445 00:23:17,780 --> 00:23:19,830 you do a business model in your firm. 446 00:23:19,920 --> 00:23:23,210 And I'd love to hear a little more about also, how do you once 447 00:23:23,220 --> 00:23:27,330 you have new clients, once you deliver exceptional work, and 448 00:23:27,340 --> 00:23:29,910 then how do you keep client relationships? 449 00:23:29,920 --> 00:23:32,330 And I say that from a perspective of somebody who's 450 00:23:32,400 --> 00:23:36,110 beginning in the profession. So I also thought I'd mentioned 451 00:23:36,120 --> 00:23:39,310 our, our main audience of the podcast are either law students 452 00:23:39,320 --> 00:23:43,450 or OK, professionals. So, so it's a, it's a lot of us 453 00:23:43,460 --> 00:23:46,690 that didn't have you had the opportunity to see, you know, a 454 00:23:46,700 --> 00:23:50,130 lot of a lot of transactions from beginning to end, year 455 00:23:50,140 --> 00:23:52,340 after year. But I'd love to hear a little 456 00:23:52,350 --> 00:23:56,510 more about your thoughts on on maintaining those relationships 457 00:23:57,010 --> 00:24:00,000 after the first legal service is off. 458 00:24:00,010 --> 00:24:02,540 Yeah. I I gauge success. 459 00:24:02,550 --> 00:24:05,700 Claudio, in terms of relationships, I think? 460 00:24:05,710 --> 00:24:08,780 If you're successful. In the relationships and you 461 00:24:08,790 --> 00:24:11,940 build strong relationships internally and externally. 462 00:24:11,950 --> 00:24:14,560 That is how you measure success and. 463 00:24:14,650 --> 00:24:17,140 It is tough. To keep any relationship. 464 00:24:17,150 --> 00:24:19,640 Whether it? Be within your family, within 465 00:24:19,650 --> 00:24:23,080 your friendships, within your business community 466 00:24:23,130 --> 00:24:25,480 relationships. They're difficult to maintain 467 00:24:25,490 --> 00:24:30,540 because they demand time, they demand effort, they demand a 468 00:24:30,550 --> 00:24:33,840 certain donation on the part of the people belonging to the 469 00:24:33,850 --> 00:24:37,480 relationship. So not everyone has the patience 470 00:24:37,490 --> 00:24:39,970 potentially to dedicate themselves. 471 00:24:40,050 --> 00:24:43,010 As they should. To any sort of relationship and 472 00:24:43,020 --> 00:24:43,790 we're. Happy to say. 473 00:24:43,800 --> 00:24:49,140 That here at the firm we now have over 1000 clients, 90% are 474 00:24:49,150 --> 00:24:54,050 multinational companies and each relationship with each client is 475 00:24:54,100 --> 00:24:57,770 as important to us as any other. It's not because a. 476 00:24:57,780 --> 00:25:03,690 Client is bringing $1000 or $1,000,000 that the relationship 477 00:25:03,700 --> 00:25:05,550 will be different. We use. 478 00:25:05,560 --> 00:25:11,010 The passion we have in the same. Degree to provide the best 479 00:25:11,020 --> 00:25:16,010 possible legal services. To each individual client, each 480 00:25:16,020 --> 00:25:21,740 one of those 1000 clients and we like to make them special and 481 00:25:21,750 --> 00:25:25,270 feel special not only because they have dedicated client 482 00:25:25,280 --> 00:25:27,670 partner. To all his oversee. 483 00:25:27,860 --> 00:25:31,430 The work that is being done, the client partner may not be. 484 00:25:31,620 --> 00:25:33,370 The person, of course, for obvious. 485 00:25:33,380 --> 00:25:35,730 Reasons doing all the. Work because that's why we have 486 00:25:35,740 --> 00:25:37,310 other. Lawyers and other teams. 487 00:25:37,350 --> 00:25:39,070 But there. Will always be 1. 488 00:25:39,080 --> 00:25:42,050 Partner to hold. The hand of the client within 489 00:25:42,060 --> 00:25:45,890 the firm and to give the comfort to that client that everything 490 00:25:46,120 --> 00:25:50,030 is in order, everything is progressing and everything is 491 00:25:50,040 --> 00:25:53,670 being overseen and when clients. Visit us as well. 492 00:25:53,780 --> 00:25:57,210 Physically, here in Sao Paulo to our offices in Villa Olympia, we 493 00:25:57,220 --> 00:25:59,650 also welcome them in a different manner. 494 00:25:59,660 --> 00:26:02,650 We have. A television in our reception 495 00:26:02,720 --> 00:26:06,730 where in several languages we welcome the person who is 496 00:26:06,740 --> 00:26:10,920 visiting and also we include the name, we include the name of the 497 00:26:10,930 --> 00:26:13,920 company as well. So from the very moment the 498 00:26:13,930 --> 00:26:17,920 person steps foot at Montgomery, the receptionist and the 499 00:26:17,930 --> 00:26:19,640 infrastructure. Will already. 500 00:26:19,650 --> 00:26:23,580 Provide a more welcoming environment for that client and 501 00:26:23,590 --> 00:26:25,980 this is what. We like to do throughout the 502 00:26:25,990 --> 00:26:28,840 legal services. We we provide not only all 503 00:26:28,850 --> 00:26:31,760 lawyers and even the most senior lawyers like myself. 504 00:26:31,830 --> 00:26:35,100 Are always involved. I always take a lot of care. 505 00:26:35,170 --> 00:26:37,940 To be present at video conferences. 506 00:26:37,950 --> 00:26:41,360 To be available. For my clients, even though I'm 507 00:26:41,370 --> 00:26:45,540 traveling internationally, I'm just one WhatsApp message away, 508 00:26:45,550 --> 00:26:49,360 one e-mail, 1 telephone away. And I think when you do things 509 00:26:49,570 --> 00:26:52,760 with fashion, hold. Heartedly, as we do. 510 00:26:52,810 --> 00:26:55,550 Nothing is difficult, everything is easy, right? 511 00:26:55,730 --> 00:27:00,540 It won't be a strain on you if you do things with passion and I 512 00:27:00,550 --> 00:27:03,220 think. If you dedicate yourself 513 00:27:03,280 --> 00:27:04,960 wholeheartedly to your. Clients. 514 00:27:05,090 --> 00:27:08,660 Your clients will appreciate that and there will be your long 515 00:27:08,910 --> 00:27:11,120 standing client. So for those. 516 00:27:11,130 --> 00:27:15,150 Students who are about to graduate from university, if 517 00:27:15,160 --> 00:27:17,700 there's one tip I can give besides everything. 518 00:27:17,710 --> 00:27:21,680 I've said so far is. To do everything wholeheartedly, 519 00:27:21,770 --> 00:27:25,180 with passion, without expecting anything in return. 520 00:27:25,350 --> 00:27:28,080 And you'll see that people will remember you. 521 00:27:28,150 --> 00:27:31,100 Your reputation will live up to you and. 522 00:27:31,110 --> 00:27:34,410 People will. Admire you and inspire and we'll 523 00:27:34,420 --> 00:27:37,000 be inspired by. You this week I had. 524 00:27:37,010 --> 00:27:41,560 The very fortunate situation where a lawyer I hadn't dealt 525 00:27:41,570 --> 00:27:46,400 with for 15 years, so somebody prior to the foundation of 526 00:27:46,410 --> 00:27:51,140 Montgomery reached out to me to introduce a client of his and. 527 00:27:51,190 --> 00:27:53,680 We did a video. Fortunately, I saw the e-mail, 528 00:27:53,690 --> 00:27:57,400 it had landed in my my junk inbox in my spam. 529 00:27:57,450 --> 00:28:01,860 So it's always very important to check your junk box is not only 530 00:28:01,870 --> 00:28:07,180 the inbox because you never know where clients will appear and I 531 00:28:07,190 --> 00:28:09,280 was so. Happy that he still. 532 00:28:09,290 --> 00:28:11,420 Remembered the services are. Offered. 533 00:28:11,490 --> 00:28:13,540 And hopefully we're going to. Work together with this. 534 00:28:13,550 --> 00:28:15,920 New client as well and this was a time. 535 00:28:16,050 --> 00:28:19,410 This was the first time I actually metem face to face. 536 00:28:19,460 --> 00:28:22,650 Because 15 years ago there wasn't the habit of 537 00:28:22,660 --> 00:28:25,450 videoconferences so. We only corresponded and 538 00:28:25,460 --> 00:28:27,620 exchanged and interacted by e-mail. 539 00:28:27,630 --> 00:28:31,330 This time I managed to see him face to face by video 540 00:28:31,340 --> 00:28:32,910 conference. So what I say? 541 00:28:32,920 --> 00:28:36,450 Is that never lose any opportunities to. 542 00:28:36,460 --> 00:28:39,550 Network as well. You never know where the next 543 00:28:39,560 --> 00:28:42,120 client, the next relationship will arise. 544 00:28:42,520 --> 00:28:45,640 Once returning from the United States from a conference had 545 00:28:45,650 --> 00:28:50,330 been a speaker my flight, which was going from San Francisco to 546 00:28:50,340 --> 00:28:54,230 Miami and then Miami to Sao. Paulo was cancelled and I was. 547 00:28:54,240 --> 00:28:58,730 Rerouted through New York. I was really pissed off because 548 00:28:58,740 --> 00:29:00,510 of the extra. Time that it would. 549 00:29:00,520 --> 00:29:03,600 Take to get back to Brazil. But on my flight from new. 550 00:29:03,610 --> 00:29:09,320 York to Sao Paulo, I sat beside the HR director. 551 00:29:09,390 --> 00:29:12,020 Of a multinational company. That has had. 552 00:29:12,030 --> 00:29:15,920 A presence in Brazil and I. Told my story. 553 00:29:16,010 --> 00:29:18,920 Of how I had founded my firm. It had been just. 554 00:29:18,930 --> 00:29:21,680 A few years after. The foundation, we got along 555 00:29:21,690 --> 00:29:24,680 well. I like to chat and I encourage. 556 00:29:24,690 --> 00:29:27,200 People always to. Not be shy and to chat. 557 00:29:27,210 --> 00:29:29,260 With people who are. Beside, you never know. 558 00:29:29,330 --> 00:29:32,720 What you will. Discover and after many hours of 559 00:29:32,730 --> 00:29:35,040 chitchatting. The HR director. 560 00:29:35,110 --> 00:29:37,980 When she got off the plane. With me said, I'll introduce 561 00:29:37,990 --> 00:29:39,940 you. To our general counsel. 562 00:29:40,090 --> 00:29:42,640 To see. Whether there's anything we can 563 00:29:42,650 --> 00:29:44,040 do? Together we do. 564 00:29:44,050 --> 00:29:46,810 Have another firm? This counselor in Brazil, but I. 565 00:29:46,820 --> 00:29:50,150 Really liked your. Ethos I liked your spirit. 566 00:29:50,340 --> 00:29:54,570 And I would love for our. Organizations to work together. 567 00:29:54,800 --> 00:29:56,780 And that's actually what happened. 568 00:29:56,860 --> 00:30:00,350 So over the years. We got more and more business 569 00:30:00,360 --> 00:30:02,300 from this company and then became their. 570 00:30:02,310 --> 00:30:07,390 Exclusive exclusive advisors in Brazil and it all started 571 00:30:07,460 --> 00:30:11,300 because first fate to a certain. Degree played a role. 572 00:30:11,310 --> 00:30:13,490 Because. Had I not been diverted? 573 00:30:13,500 --> 00:30:15,470 I would never had sat beside this person. 574 00:30:15,680 --> 00:30:18,730 And also part of me. To reach out to. 575 00:30:18,740 --> 00:30:22,920 Be communicatively and to establish a a conversation with 576 00:30:22,930 --> 00:30:26,470 the person sitting beside me. That's that's amazing. 577 00:30:26,640 --> 00:30:29,900 I can see that if we were to talk here for another hour, 578 00:30:29,970 --> 00:30:32,940 you'd have many and many of those stories, and it's just 579 00:30:32,950 --> 00:30:34,030 incredible. But. 580 00:30:34,040 --> 00:30:36,340 Yes, yes. I just had a lot of the credit 581 00:30:36,350 --> 00:30:38,510 to you for putting yourself out there and. 582 00:30:38,810 --> 00:30:40,320 You cannot be. Shy as a. 583 00:30:40,330 --> 00:30:43,000 Lawyer Claudio, never be shy. I think that. 584 00:30:43,010 --> 00:30:45,660 Is the. Main tip to the youngsters out 585 00:30:45,670 --> 00:30:46,780 there. Is to. 586 00:30:46,790 --> 00:30:48,920 Believe in yourself if you've gone to. 587 00:30:48,930 --> 00:30:52,760 University, you've graduated. As a lawyer, you must know your 588 00:30:52,770 --> 00:30:55,300 stuff. So believe in yourself. 589 00:30:55,350 --> 00:30:57,080 And don't be shy. I love it. 590 00:30:57,150 --> 00:30:59,520 I love it. Well, Neil, thank you so much 591 00:30:59,530 --> 00:31:02,200 for taking the time to being in the podcast today to share all. 592 00:31:02,210 --> 00:31:04,100 Thank you for being fantastic and I look. 593 00:31:04,110 --> 00:31:06,850 Forward to. Meeting you in person in 594 00:31:06,860 --> 00:31:08,740 Toronto. Later this year. 595 00:31:08,870 --> 00:31:11,060 For the annual conference. Of the IBA. 596 00:31:11,580 --> 00:31:13,200 Right, that's right. I'll be there. 597 00:31:13,250 --> 00:31:15,360 I'm looking forward to meeting you in person too. 598 00:31:15,450 --> 00:31:17,380 Likewise. Amazing. 599 00:31:17,390 --> 00:31:20,260 Well, thank you all so much for tuning into today's episode. 600 00:31:20,270 --> 00:31:23,420 Well, since you mentioned it, if you're coming out to the IBA 601 00:31:23,430 --> 00:31:26,380 conference in Toronto this November, please do send a 602 00:31:26,390 --> 00:31:29,300 message and we'll make sure that we have a podcast meet up.