1 00:00:12,870 --> 00:00:14,860 Welcome to studying Law around the world. 2 00:00:15,010 --> 00:00:17,860 I'm Claudio Claus. In each episode, I talk with 3 00:00:17,870 --> 00:00:20,840 lawyers, law students, and professors from different parts 4 00:00:20,850 --> 00:00:24,740 of the world to talk about legal education, careers, and what the 5 00:00:24,750 --> 00:00:26,420 profession looks like in real life. 6 00:00:26,430 --> 00:00:29,470 We talk about the hard parts, the surprises, and the decisions 7 00:00:29,480 --> 00:00:32,259 that shaped their paths. Whether you're planning to study 8 00:00:32,270 --> 00:00:35,520 abroad, thinking about working in another legal system, or just 9 00:00:35,530 --> 00:00:39,640 curious about how law works around the world, this podcast. 10 00:00:39,650 --> 00:00:45,170 Is for you. If you're an internationally 11 00:00:45,180 --> 00:00:48,490 trained lawyer or law student working in or trying to break 12 00:00:48,500 --> 00:00:52,870 into an English speaking common law system, you know that legal 13 00:00:52,880 --> 00:00:56,310 writing is one of the biggest challenges and one of the most 14 00:00:56,320 --> 00:01:00,270 important skills to master. That's where Grammatica comes 15 00:01:00,280 --> 00:01:02,460 in. I'm Rebecca Lockwood, the 16 00:01:02,470 --> 00:01:05,310 lawyer, mediator, educator and founder of Grammatica 17 00:01:05,319 --> 00:01:08,780 International. We help lawyers and law students 18 00:01:08,790 --> 00:01:13,320 to write sharper, speak clearer, and land more interviews with on 19 00:01:13,330 --> 00:01:17,290 demand online courses, live workshops and one-on-one 20 00:01:17,300 --> 00:01:20,060 consulting designed just for legal professionals. 21 00:01:20,430 --> 00:01:23,510 I have worked with so many lawyers like you who are 22 00:01:23,520 --> 00:01:27,040 exceptionally smart, qualified and capable, but need some 23 00:01:27,050 --> 00:01:29,980 guidance to really stand out in a competitive legal market. 24 00:01:30,130 --> 00:01:32,800 And I get it myself, having lived and worked in five 25 00:01:32,810 --> 00:01:35,950 countries during my 17 years in law and education. 26 00:01:36,630 --> 00:01:39,080 Whether you're looking to sharpen your writing skills 27 00:01:39,090 --> 00:01:42,960 generally, refresh your CD, or draft an application for a law 28 00:01:42,970 --> 00:01:47,940 program, Grammatica can help. Visit Grammatico to get started. 29 00:01:54,940 --> 00:01:58,230 Today I have the opportunity to interview Alex Glickman. 30 00:01:58,240 --> 00:02:01,550 He's a tax lawyer and also the founder of Taxpayer Law. 31 00:02:01,620 --> 00:02:03,290 Thank you so much for joining us today. 32 00:02:03,300 --> 00:02:05,210 Alex, my pleasure, Claudia, thanks for having. 33 00:02:05,220 --> 00:02:07,990 Me amazing so she start today's episode. 34 00:02:08,000 --> 00:02:10,289 I'd love to hear a little bit about your story. 35 00:02:10,340 --> 00:02:13,330 So can you introduce yourself to our audience and share about 36 00:02:13,340 --> 00:02:16,030 your journey through law school based treat and also starting 37 00:02:16,040 --> 00:02:17,730 your own firm? Yeah, sure. 38 00:02:17,740 --> 00:02:22,280 I mean the genesis of it, I was born abroad, you know, single 39 00:02:22,290 --> 00:02:25,460 mother parent, came to Canada with a couple of kids and it 40 00:02:25,470 --> 00:02:28,710 wasn't any easy life unnecessarily when I started 41 00:02:28,720 --> 00:02:30,860 off. But you know, lots of people go 42 00:02:30,870 --> 00:02:32,690 through the immigrant experience, so it's nothing 43 00:02:32,760 --> 00:02:36,100 crucial for Canada. And so then I did my undergrad 44 00:02:36,110 --> 00:02:39,360 at York, I guess because I didn't really want to change 45 00:02:39,370 --> 00:02:42,340 the, the design on my wall in terms of the degrees. 46 00:02:42,350 --> 00:02:44,340 I wanted to make sure all the degrees look the same on 47 00:02:44,350 --> 00:02:46,360 identical. I continued my journey at York 48 00:02:46,370 --> 00:02:50,320 and I got my JD, MBA, York. So all my degrees are from York. 49 00:02:50,370 --> 00:02:53,100 So now they look really nice and polished on the wall. 50 00:02:53,110 --> 00:02:56,540 And yeah, that's kind of been my educational journey. 51 00:02:56,550 --> 00:02:59,660 Went to Osgood and graduated. Wasn't really sure what to do 52 00:02:59,670 --> 00:03:02,020 with, you know, with, with, with my life, but I didn't really 53 00:03:02,030 --> 00:03:06,360 want to provide for my family. So I, I got a job on B Street. 54 00:03:06,670 --> 00:03:10,220 I worked at one firm for a few years, then worked at another 55 00:03:10,230 --> 00:03:14,740 firm for, for, for a few years, But I was fully an entrepreneur 56 00:03:14,750 --> 00:03:19,460 by nature. It's, uh, it made sense for me 57 00:03:19,470 --> 00:03:24,980 to do my own firm. I, I think it was kind of always 58 00:03:24,990 --> 00:03:26,380 within me. I always had my own clients I 59 00:03:26,390 --> 00:03:30,560 found and I always, you know, had the drive to build something 60 00:03:30,570 --> 00:03:32,980 in my own, whether in law or elsewhere. 61 00:03:33,030 --> 00:03:36,820 I started a business when I was, you know, he could say 6 year 62 00:03:36,830 --> 00:03:38,700 old. So like I've, I've sold things, 63 00:03:38,710 --> 00:03:41,710 I collected golf balls and golf courses and sold them, you know, 64 00:03:41,720 --> 00:03:45,100 did all sorts of little things kind of to make, make some 65 00:03:45,110 --> 00:03:46,780 money. So I was always kind of 66 00:03:46,790 --> 00:03:49,340 entrepreneurial by nature. So kind of made sense for me to 67 00:03:49,350 --> 00:03:53,940 go and start my own law firm. And I don't think the big law 68 00:03:53,950 --> 00:03:57,420 path would necessarily give me the flexibility to do what I 69 00:03:57,430 --> 00:03:58,920 wanted to do. And I didn't necessarily want to 70 00:03:58,930 --> 00:04:00,720 do just law. I wanted to build a business, I 71 00:04:00,730 --> 00:04:04,370 wanted to do investment stuff. I enjoy reading, so I wanted to 72 00:04:04,380 --> 00:04:08,060 spend some time reading as well. Until, you know, having your own 73 00:04:08,070 --> 00:04:10,840 firm, you kind of you're, you're free to do whatever you want to 74 00:04:10,850 --> 00:04:11,950 do. 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Edmond.ca and use promo code ITL 105 00:05:53,640 --> 00:05:58,560 50 to claim your 50% discount on NCA exam preparation courses. 106 00:06:02,000 --> 00:06:04,530 Amazing. So I, I've, I've read some of 107 00:06:04,540 --> 00:06:07,860 what you put there on on LinkedIn for context, a lot of 108 00:06:07,870 --> 00:06:10,620 my audience here in the podcast. Are early career. 109 00:06:10,630 --> 00:06:14,900 Professionals or law students, a frequent question that ends up 110 00:06:14,910 --> 00:06:18,080 coming over and over again is how do you decide your area of 111 00:06:18,090 --> 00:06:19,860 practice? So I wanted to ask you, what 112 00:06:19,870 --> 00:06:23,280 made you choose tax? And I've, I've read a few of 113 00:06:23,290 --> 00:06:25,740 your comments saying that it offers electoral challenges, 114 00:06:25,750 --> 00:06:29,470 work life balance, satisfaction. But was there a specific moment 115 00:06:29,480 --> 00:06:31,560 or experience that made that click for you? 116 00:06:31,630 --> 00:06:34,800 Or was it more of a realization that you had over the years? 117 00:06:34,890 --> 00:06:39,640 Well, I think when I worked at a large law firm, what was helpful 118 00:06:40,050 --> 00:06:42,180 is that you're able to experience multiple practice 119 00:06:42,190 --> 00:06:44,330 serious something that you don't necessarily get a smaller 120 00:06:44,340 --> 00:06:46,740 boutique shop where there's one practice here. 121 00:06:46,750 --> 00:06:50,160 So I tax is not something necessarily I thought of until I 122 00:06:50,170 --> 00:06:52,540 worked in the tax group. At the time. 123 00:06:52,550 --> 00:06:55,020 I did take it a few tax courses and I thought they were great. 124 00:06:55,030 --> 00:06:56,460 I also were like tort law, though. 125 00:06:56,470 --> 00:06:59,780 So my first summer I spent in the tort department, the group's 126 00:06:59,790 --> 00:07:03,460 called the store group. So I was able to experience 127 00:07:03,470 --> 00:07:05,740 that. But what really attracted me to 128 00:07:05,750 --> 00:07:09,840 tax is just kind of it aligned with the way that I think. 129 00:07:09,930 --> 00:07:14,360 And I'm more of a logical numerical thinker and tax in the 130 00:07:14,410 --> 00:07:17,040 basic essence of it. You know, the Income Tax Act is, 131 00:07:17,050 --> 00:07:20,600 you know, a formula. It's it's it's very, you know, 132 00:07:20,650 --> 00:07:23,620 long formula and, and, and written with using a lot of 133 00:07:23,630 --> 00:07:24,960 words. But at the end of the day, it is 134 00:07:24,970 --> 00:07:27,300 a formula. So that's that's why I was 135 00:07:27,310 --> 00:07:29,770 attracted to tax. There's other areas, as I said, 136 00:07:29,780 --> 00:07:33,010 I'd like tort law, but I don't think it really, you know, while 137 00:07:33,020 --> 00:07:35,270 I liked it, it didn't really make sense with my background. 138 00:07:35,280 --> 00:07:37,660 I kind of had a business undergrad, business MBA. 139 00:07:37,670 --> 00:07:40,250 So, so tax kind of made sense with that background. 140 00:07:40,260 --> 00:07:44,970 And I can also see myself working in competition law. 141 00:07:45,020 --> 00:07:47,700 I like a comics on competition. Well, I think it's another area 142 00:07:47,710 --> 00:07:49,570 that that that's quite interesting to me. 143 00:07:49,580 --> 00:07:52,770 So yeah, I, I think there's no backgrounds, but the reason why 144 00:07:52,780 --> 00:07:55,190 I chose taxes because it just made a lot of sense to me. 145 00:07:55,240 --> 00:07:58,130 And, and you're right to point out that tax lawyers seem to be 146 00:07:58,140 --> 00:08:01,090 happy. You know, multiple surveys and 147 00:08:01,100 --> 00:08:04,600 studies suggest that tax lawyers rank often the most in the most 148 00:08:04,610 --> 00:08:07,750 satisfied to most, most satisfied legal professionals 149 00:08:07,760 --> 00:08:10,090 out there. And I think the reason for it 150 00:08:10,100 --> 00:08:15,280 is, is probably, you know, the fact that it's the Tax Act is 151 00:08:15,290 --> 00:08:17,180 like a puzzle. You got to try to figure things 152 00:08:17,190 --> 00:08:19,060 out. It's a, you know, the laws 153 00:08:19,070 --> 00:08:21,590 always changing. It's impossible to know it all. 154 00:08:21,600 --> 00:08:23,210 You're always kind of digging, digging through it. 155 00:08:23,220 --> 00:08:25,920 You're always learning, you're attending CPD events, You were 156 00:08:25,930 --> 00:08:31,640 able to publish a lot, you know, kind of challenge yourself and, 157 00:08:31,650 --> 00:08:34,289 and, and, and try to kind of find and answers sometimes the 158 00:08:34,299 --> 00:08:36,659 questions that he answers that don't exist. 159 00:08:36,669 --> 00:08:39,840 And you're trying to kind of come up with, with those answers 160 00:08:39,850 --> 00:08:42,059 using, using whatever information is out there. 161 00:08:42,070 --> 00:08:44,860 And so it makes, it makes it quite interesting. 162 00:08:44,870 --> 00:08:48,370 And I kind of prior to this podcast, did a little bit of 163 00:08:48,430 --> 00:08:53,180 research and it seems that, you know, results have showed that 164 00:08:53,270 --> 00:08:56,770 tax associates have the highest job satisfaction of all practice 165 00:08:56,840 --> 00:08:59,460 areas, which is pretty awesome. And there was a survey which was 166 00:08:59,470 --> 00:09:03,630 done with the question of would you choose your, your practice 167 00:09:03,640 --> 00:09:06,020 area again as a metric for happiness? 168 00:09:06,030 --> 00:09:09,250 And 89% of tax attorneys said they would choose the same job 169 00:09:09,260 --> 00:09:11,110 again. So the highest of any practice 170 00:09:11,120 --> 00:09:14,090 group, which, which is, which is pretty remarkable, but I've seen 171 00:09:14,100 --> 00:09:16,240 this before. So it's, it doesn't really 172 00:09:16,250 --> 00:09:18,370 surprise me. It's not a surprising outcome, 173 00:09:18,440 --> 00:09:21,210 but what I think it shows is that it really is a terrific 174 00:09:21,220 --> 00:09:24,420 practicer out there in terms of work life balance. 175 00:09:24,430 --> 00:09:27,290 Again, in fewer and tax litigation, you were, you have 176 00:09:27,300 --> 00:09:30,390 a, you know, you have trials, of course, you have various, you 177 00:09:30,400 --> 00:09:32,450 know, various discoveries, etcetera, but you have a 178 00:09:32,460 --> 00:09:35,370 calendar by which you follow. So it's kind of structured and 179 00:09:35,380 --> 00:09:38,040 predictable. Tax planning is also, it could 180 00:09:38,050 --> 00:09:41,260 be hectic, but there's an element of predictability there. 181 00:09:41,270 --> 00:09:44,750 There isn't a lot of overnights I'll find in working as a tax or 182 00:09:45,240 --> 00:09:48,570 which also really helps with with happiness and satisfaction. 183 00:09:48,620 --> 00:09:52,290 No, that's amazing that that might, you know, give some some 184 00:09:52,300 --> 00:09:54,880 food for thought for people who are deciding which practice area 185 00:09:54,890 --> 00:09:57,830 they wanna go into and going forward. 186 00:09:57,840 --> 00:10:01,350 You know, another of the facts here that I wanted to ask you 187 00:10:01,360 --> 00:10:03,710 about is about building a practice as well. 188 00:10:03,720 --> 00:10:05,470 You build your own from the ground up. 189 00:10:05,600 --> 00:10:08,430 And I'd love to hear, you know, a little bit about what are some 190 00:10:08,440 --> 00:10:10,670 of the hardest decisions you have to do. 191 00:10:10,680 --> 00:10:14,880 I know it's not always easy to leave the comfort of staying in 192 00:10:14,890 --> 00:10:17,970 a firm and then also maybe like the learning curves that you 193 00:10:17,980 --> 00:10:20,470 have in those first years. And then also, what would you 194 00:10:20,480 --> 00:10:22,730 say to somebody who's considering the same path? 195 00:10:22,780 --> 00:10:25,670 I think first thing, it would be helpful to our a few years 196 00:10:25,680 --> 00:10:28,590 behind your back, regardless of whether you're in tax or another 197 00:10:28,600 --> 00:10:29,900 practice. I mean, I think it's really 198 00:10:29,910 --> 00:10:32,790 difficult to start a fire without having any practical 199 00:10:32,860 --> 00:10:34,810 experience. Law school doesn't teach you a 200 00:10:34,820 --> 00:10:37,680 lot of practical skills. And I think, you know, having 201 00:10:37,690 --> 00:10:40,030 that experience very helpful, especially in tax where the 202 00:10:40,040 --> 00:10:42,450 learning curve is much greater. So I think that's the first 203 00:10:42,460 --> 00:10:46,650 thing that somebody considering going out on their own, I would 204 00:10:46,660 --> 00:10:50,550 suggest that they go and work somewhere so that it's so they 205 00:10:50,560 --> 00:10:51,960 can gain those skills and experience. 206 00:10:51,970 --> 00:10:54,930 That's the first thing. But just starting it off on my 207 00:10:54,940 --> 00:10:56,710 own for what were the challenges? 208 00:10:56,720 --> 00:11:00,030 I think one challenges kind of to stay within your circle of 209 00:11:00,040 --> 00:11:01,130 competence. Right? 210 00:11:01,480 --> 00:11:03,410 When I started off, I had 0 files. 211 00:11:03,420 --> 00:11:08,450 I, you know, I left the work, You know, you, you want to drum 212 00:11:08,460 --> 00:11:11,280 up some work, but you also want to drum up some work that fits 213 00:11:11,290 --> 00:11:12,730 within your circle of competence. 214 00:11:12,740 --> 00:11:15,410 And I'm using the term Warren Buffett that's using the 215 00:11:15,420 --> 00:11:18,560 investment world, but I think it also applies to the legal 216 00:11:18,570 --> 00:11:21,180 profession. You don't want to necessarily 217 00:11:21,220 --> 00:11:24,370 double outside what your comfort zone is an outside. 218 00:11:24,380 --> 00:11:26,600 What should you do when you're starting on your own 0 files? 219 00:11:26,670 --> 00:11:30,080 Of course, there's, there's, you know, potential pressures there 220 00:11:30,090 --> 00:11:32,320 too, to go out and just get work for the sake of work. 221 00:11:32,370 --> 00:11:35,680 But I think my, my advice to anybody starting off on their 222 00:11:35,690 --> 00:11:38,640 own would be to stay within your circle of competence and reject 223 00:11:38,650 --> 00:11:40,620 the work that doesn't make sense to take on. 224 00:11:40,630 --> 00:11:43,740 I think it's, you know, helps with limiting potential 225 00:11:43,750 --> 00:11:47,660 liability and builds that expertise that, that a lawyer 226 00:11:47,670 --> 00:11:49,920 has on a certain practice here. And that of course, not building 227 00:11:49,930 --> 00:11:51,860 upon that expertise is kind of a flywheel, right? 228 00:11:51,870 --> 00:11:54,780 You get better and better at something and then you can get 229 00:11:54,790 --> 00:11:58,670 more work within that circle of competence and and and continue 230 00:11:58,680 --> 00:12:03,490 that flywheel. Whether you're studying law in 231 00:12:03,500 --> 00:12:06,870 Mumbai or practising in Manhattan, Rev can help you 232 00:12:06,880 --> 00:12:09,910 transcribe and analyze all your case materials with 233 00:12:09,920 --> 00:12:20,240 verifiablecitations.learnmore@rev.com. So that those are kind of, you 234 00:12:20,250 --> 00:12:23,730 know, the, the, the basic things, I think from a business 235 00:12:23,740 --> 00:12:26,440 perspective, you know, you want to make sure you monitor cash 236 00:12:26,450 --> 00:12:28,310 flow, right? Because when you're starting off 237 00:12:28,320 --> 00:12:31,270 and you have no files, even if you get one file, you're, you've 238 00:12:31,280 --> 00:12:33,760 got to do the work, you've got to send the bill and you got to 239 00:12:33,770 --> 00:12:35,760 get paid. So if you think of, you know, 240 00:12:35,770 --> 00:12:37,140 doing the work, how long will that take you? 241 00:12:37,150 --> 00:12:38,980 A couple of months, right? Sending the bill, you sent it 242 00:12:38,990 --> 00:12:41,520 out, let's say at the end of the couple months, takes you a 243 00:12:41,530 --> 00:12:42,820 couple months to get paid, right? 244 00:12:42,830 --> 00:12:46,250 So all of a sudden there's no cash for four months in my 245 00:12:46,260 --> 00:12:48,780 example. And, and that's a, that's 246 00:12:48,790 --> 00:12:50,030 tricky. So the first year is very 247 00:12:50,040 --> 00:12:51,760 difficult from a casual perspective. 248 00:12:51,770 --> 00:12:54,360 So it's as a result, it's important to kind of keep your 249 00:12:54,370 --> 00:12:56,160 costs down when you're starting off referral. 250 00:12:56,170 --> 00:12:59,000 We didn't have an office physical office at the time and 251 00:12:59,390 --> 00:13:01,880 just had a mailing address at the time when I started. 252 00:13:01,950 --> 00:13:05,060 Got your own laptop law for insurance practice management 253 00:13:05,070 --> 00:13:08,200 software perhaps and some other tools, but very, very limited. 254 00:13:08,210 --> 00:13:10,780 You don't need a lot of resources to run the offer 255 00:13:10,790 --> 00:13:13,640 effectively nowadays. The barriers to entry into the 256 00:13:13,650 --> 00:13:17,120 legal profession are fairly low. After you get your logic, you're 257 00:13:17,130 --> 00:13:19,180 actually opening up your own farm isn't necessarily that hard 258 00:13:19,190 --> 00:13:21,440 and order to what you got to do in order to start up firm. 259 00:13:21,750 --> 00:13:23,180 It used to be much more difficult, right? 260 00:13:23,190 --> 00:13:24,880 There were a lot of administrative hurdles, but 261 00:13:24,890 --> 00:13:27,740 there's software tools now that enable you to send the bill 262 00:13:27,810 --> 00:13:31,250 seamlessly with absolute ease would enable you to track your 263 00:13:31,260 --> 00:13:33,100 time, you know, seemingly with ease. 264 00:13:33,430 --> 00:13:36,340 It is much easier than it used to be to just try to offer your 265 00:13:36,390 --> 00:13:39,640 firm, hang your own shingle and start doing the legal work. 266 00:13:39,650 --> 00:13:42,090 I remember talking to a practitioner who, you know, 267 00:13:42,330 --> 00:13:45,450 really started in these in Rennison from the 80s or 90s, 268 00:13:45,460 --> 00:13:46,630 right? And one of the things he 269 00:13:46,640 --> 00:13:49,450 complained about was that, you know, it was just too hard, too 270 00:13:49,460 --> 00:13:52,210 much admin burden and running our firm nowadays that had been 271 00:13:52,220 --> 00:13:54,350 Burton was just lower. So it makes it much easier to 272 00:13:54,360 --> 00:13:57,950 start keeping costs low. Don't be afraid to fire, but 273 00:13:58,000 --> 00:14:00,070 hire careful. I think that's another piece of 274 00:14:00,080 --> 00:14:02,270 advice really, you know, otherwise you'll stay by 275 00:14:02,280 --> 00:14:05,140 yourself all the time. And it's, it's a lot more fun to 276 00:14:05,150 --> 00:14:07,290 work in a team to build something. 277 00:14:07,300 --> 00:14:10,870 So we're fortunate to, to, to be growing into being some very, 278 00:14:10,880 --> 00:14:13,730 very good growth and to have a team with us that's, that's 279 00:14:13,740 --> 00:14:15,570 exceptionally strong for a smaller firm. 280 00:14:15,620 --> 00:14:18,270 And that's probably another challenge is how you build a 281 00:14:18,280 --> 00:14:20,290 team that's exceptionally small, strong firm. 282 00:14:20,300 --> 00:14:22,690 And you know, we, we just have to be very careful with their 283 00:14:22,700 --> 00:14:25,310 hiring, recruiting selection process. 284 00:14:25,400 --> 00:14:29,110 And, and that's what worked for us kind of relating to keeping 285 00:14:29,660 --> 00:14:31,850 costs low. And, and that, that, you know, 286 00:14:31,860 --> 00:14:35,860 cash flow crunch is, you know, you gotta build time only when 287 00:14:35,870 --> 00:14:37,630 you, when you, when you're running and especially at the 288 00:14:37,640 --> 00:14:39,990 beginning, right, you do want to get cash for, and I think that's 289 00:14:40,000 --> 00:14:42,250 another piece of advice. You want to have a regular cat 290 00:14:42,580 --> 00:14:45,710 cadence for billing. So we bill monthly, for example, 291 00:14:45,760 --> 00:14:47,960 every month, you know, at the beginning of the month, somebody 292 00:14:47,970 --> 00:14:49,530 goes into the bill, sends them all out. 293 00:14:49,600 --> 00:14:53,030 And then and it's, it's, it's a routine and everybody enters 294 00:14:53,040 --> 00:14:55,690 their dockets sometime. And we, you know, we send an 295 00:14:55,700 --> 00:14:57,950 e-mail around the firm saying, you know, stand the month after 296 00:14:57,960 --> 00:15:00,730 your doctors because we're billing and you need the cash in 297 00:15:00,740 --> 00:15:03,840 order to keep the fire going and keep the firm growing. 298 00:15:03,850 --> 00:15:06,060 And it with the growing firm, of course, that's a challenge 299 00:15:06,070 --> 00:15:09,380 because you, you know, you need the cash not just to kind of 300 00:15:09,470 --> 00:15:12,270 satisfy current obligations, but if you're growing, you got to 301 00:15:12,280 --> 00:15:14,760 ensure that you have enough cash for working capital and other 302 00:15:14,770 --> 00:15:17,010 things that you're investing in order to like, if you want to 303 00:15:17,020 --> 00:15:19,320 hire somebody, you hire them today, you gotta pay them today, 304 00:15:19,390 --> 00:15:24,660 but it might take a few months for them to, to, to generate any 305 00:15:24,670 --> 00:15:26,600 revenue, right? So you got to pay today? 306 00:15:26,690 --> 00:15:28,160 Amazing. That's fantastic. 307 00:15:28,170 --> 00:15:31,400 I think those are all things that people who are considering 308 00:15:31,410 --> 00:15:34,200 that path should keep in mind and tell very much about the 309 00:15:34,210 --> 00:15:37,380 practical side of it. So thank you for for going into 310 00:15:37,390 --> 00:15:39,700 those details. I think that can be quite 311 00:15:39,710 --> 00:15:42,900 straightforward when you have the right guidance and the right 312 00:15:43,450 --> 00:15:45,730 business mindset. But maybe it's a little bit 313 00:15:45,740 --> 00:15:48,780 daunting when you first notice all the big list of things that 314 00:15:48,790 --> 00:15:51,200 you have to do. It is, it is, and I find that 315 00:15:51,500 --> 00:15:54,990 really set us apart. Well, you know, because, you 316 00:15:55,000 --> 00:15:57,730 know, law firm is a law firm, but I think if you, you got, if 317 00:15:57,740 --> 00:16:00,450 you're creative in the way you do things, that really pushes 318 00:16:00,460 --> 00:16:03,970 you to be different and that really makes the difference. 319 00:16:03,980 --> 00:16:06,830 I think in terms of, you know, whether it's a highly successful 320 00:16:06,840 --> 00:16:09,810 firm or not a successful firm. So we're pretty creative and 321 00:16:09,860 --> 00:16:12,510 marketing. We're pretty creative and hiring 322 00:16:12,600 --> 00:16:14,850 the way we approach, for example, we don't do regular OC 323 00:16:14,860 --> 00:16:17,840 I, we just don't go through the process because you're competing 324 00:16:17,850 --> 00:16:20,020 with everyone else. And we just decided we're not 325 00:16:20,030 --> 00:16:21,310 going to compete in that process. 326 00:16:21,400 --> 00:16:24,310 There's no need for that. So we hire differently and we 327 00:16:24,380 --> 00:16:27,610 and we do marketing differently. And, and I think that's one of 328 00:16:27,620 --> 00:16:30,850 the key reasons for our success. So that's my, my advice to 329 00:16:30,860 --> 00:16:33,050 anybody starting your own forms, kind of think outside of the 330 00:16:33,060 --> 00:16:34,750 box, think how you can do things differently. 331 00:16:34,820 --> 00:16:37,600 Try to take, you know, see if there is any paths out there 332 00:16:37,610 --> 00:16:40,680 that nobody's taking before perhaps, but there are and and 333 00:16:40,750 --> 00:16:43,780 and perhaps they'll work really, really well if you do take that. 334 00:16:43,790 --> 00:16:46,520 Fantastic. And on that same note about 335 00:16:46,530 --> 00:16:49,520 creativity and all of that, I've read quite a bit of what you put 336 00:16:49,530 --> 00:16:53,080 out there on LinkedIn on work life balance, parenting and so 337 00:16:53,090 --> 00:16:55,300 forth. And out of curiosity, I'd love 338 00:16:55,310 --> 00:16:58,580 to know a little bit about how do you manage running a growing 339 00:16:58,590 --> 00:17:02,260 firm while staying present, you know, both as a father, a 340 00:17:02,270 --> 00:17:04,140 partner. So is there any kind of like 341 00:17:04,150 --> 00:17:08,140 routine or boundary that is specifically help you or, or 342 00:17:08,150 --> 00:17:10,720 it's kind of everybody's on board and you know, type 343 00:17:10,730 --> 00:17:13,160 sometimes they're busier at the firm, sometimes they're busier 344 00:17:13,170 --> 00:17:15,740 in family. How do you specifically manage 345 00:17:15,750 --> 00:17:17,540 that? I mean, I think it helps that I 346 00:17:17,550 --> 00:17:19,849 don't, it doesn't work, doesn't feel like work. 347 00:17:19,900 --> 00:17:21,550 I mean, that's the first thing to me. 348 00:17:21,560 --> 00:17:24,869 Work doesn't feel like work. So I don't really notice when 349 00:17:24,880 --> 00:17:26,270 I'm working, when I'm not working. 350 00:17:26,319 --> 00:17:29,390 It's just, you know, every day is a good day. 351 00:17:29,700 --> 00:17:31,990 And then and I kind of just keep going at it. 352 00:17:32,000 --> 00:17:35,040 And, and, and I think another thing that was really, really 353 00:17:35,050 --> 00:17:38,130 important is your team, right? Like, I mean, the team that we 354 00:17:38,140 --> 00:17:39,570 have at the firm is just so terrific. 355 00:17:39,660 --> 00:17:41,450 And maybe that's why I worked doesn't feel like work is 356 00:17:41,460 --> 00:17:44,510 because everybody is just so great and just does their part. 357 00:17:44,520 --> 00:17:47,250 And honestly, if it wasn't for the team, I don't know what we 358 00:17:47,260 --> 00:17:50,690 would do, what I would do here. I mean, I'm, I'm, you know, 359 00:17:50,760 --> 00:17:54,960 without them, I'm nothing. My partner Igor is also, you 360 00:17:54,970 --> 00:17:58,450 know, a terrific, terrific lawyer and the terrific team 361 00:17:58,460 --> 00:18:00,690 member. So I mean, I, I don't know if 362 00:18:00,700 --> 00:18:04,860 it's really just, yeah. So work life balance, I think 363 00:18:04,870 --> 00:18:09,060 from that perspective, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, 364 00:18:09,070 --> 00:18:11,360 it's a mixture of kind of how you feel about it. 365 00:18:11,370 --> 00:18:15,360 I mean, if work doesn't feel like work and then then you know 366 00:18:15,410 --> 00:18:17,730 what, what is work life balance, then, you know, to me, that's 367 00:18:17,740 --> 00:18:19,240 all life. I think that's what, that's one 368 00:18:19,250 --> 00:18:22,620 aspect of it from I guess a practical perspective, we are a 369 00:18:22,630 --> 00:18:25,960 firm that has a 1200 billable hour target. 370 00:18:25,970 --> 00:18:28,820 I mean, that's a very, very low and reasonable target compared 371 00:18:28,830 --> 00:18:31,810 to a lot of firms out there. They have much higher, other 372 00:18:31,820 --> 00:18:33,550 firms have much higher target out there. 373 00:18:33,650 --> 00:18:38,820 So that enables people at the firm to, to have, I think a, a 374 00:18:38,830 --> 00:18:40,900 work life balance. And the fact that we work from 375 00:18:40,910 --> 00:18:43,900 home is another aspect, right? If you think about how long 376 00:18:43,910 --> 00:18:47,490 people spend and the commute, if you're going half an hour to 377 00:18:47,500 --> 00:18:50,520 work, half an hour from work every single day, 50 work day 378 00:18:50,530 --> 00:18:54,510 working days per year, you're spending 250 hours in traffic. 379 00:18:54,520 --> 00:18:56,820 We're on the train or something like that, that we are, you 380 00:18:56,830 --> 00:18:58,170 know, virtual for him. First. 381 00:18:58,180 --> 00:19:00,540 We do have some physical offices where people can come in, but 382 00:19:00,550 --> 00:19:04,180 that's entirely optional. So that saves a lot of time and 383 00:19:04,190 --> 00:19:07,390 that enables people that work here to have a real work life 384 00:19:07,400 --> 00:19:08,530 balance. You know, when you, when you 385 00:19:08,540 --> 00:19:11,460 have a lower billable hour target, when you have, you know, 386 00:19:11,470 --> 00:19:14,430 no commute, it really adds up and makes it for a really 387 00:19:14,440 --> 00:19:18,570 enjoyable environment to be in. And and and for non work 388 00:19:18,580 --> 00:19:23,750 obligations, non work things to to to to to the part you know 389 00:19:23,760 --> 00:19:26,540 that enables people to take part in things that they might not 390 00:19:26,550 --> 00:19:28,070 necessarily have time for otherwise. 391 00:19:28,150 --> 00:19:29,860 That's fantastic. No, I love that. 392 00:19:30,290 --> 00:19:33,380 Beyond the DIS aspect, I think another aspect that can be quite 393 00:19:33,390 --> 00:19:37,780 important is also mentorship and how you start that early on and 394 00:19:37,790 --> 00:19:41,380 how you see people who you admire and sometimes will give 395 00:19:41,390 --> 00:19:44,440 you some tips and advice, whether through like a formal 396 00:19:44,450 --> 00:19:47,620 mentorship or just really true being helpful. 397 00:19:47,710 --> 00:19:50,590 So I'd love to hear a little more about that in your 398 00:19:50,600 --> 00:19:55,240 perspective as well, if, if you had big influences that mentored 399 00:19:55,250 --> 00:19:58,980 you and helped you early on, and then also how that translates 400 00:19:58,990 --> 00:20:02,320 into into how you try to be a mentor to others today. 401 00:20:02,430 --> 00:20:06,020 Yeah, I think is there a phrase that you're a product of like 402 00:20:06,090 --> 00:20:09,640 the five people you spend the most time with, So I think it's 403 00:20:09,650 --> 00:20:10,900 helpful to surround yourself with. 404 00:20:10,910 --> 00:20:13,010 Great people that you can learn from and they can challenge you. 405 00:20:13,020 --> 00:20:16,890 I think that's that's important. And I think again, having a 406 00:20:16,900 --> 00:20:20,030 great team around me is, is phenomenal. 407 00:20:20,120 --> 00:20:24,790 And, and you know, we all mentor each other in some way, shape or 408 00:20:24,800 --> 00:20:27,930 form as by virtual working together and helping each other 409 00:20:27,940 --> 00:20:30,360 out. In terms of maybe like more 410 00:20:30,420 --> 00:20:33,530 formal, you know, maybe not formal, but more, more people 411 00:20:33,540 --> 00:20:36,370 who I look up to, you know, people like Warren Buffett and 412 00:20:36,380 --> 00:20:39,710 Charlie Munger are probably some of the people I really, really 413 00:20:39,720 --> 00:20:42,760 admire, not for necessarily their financial acumen, which is 414 00:20:42,770 --> 00:20:45,330 which is great, but just for the way that they live their life 415 00:20:45,340 --> 00:20:49,010 and the values that they uphold. I think that's really important. 416 00:20:49,080 --> 00:20:51,930 You know, it's just, you look at Warren Buffett and you know, he 417 00:20:51,940 --> 00:20:55,090 lives very, very simple life, very humble life. 418 00:20:55,230 --> 00:20:58,600 And, you know, at the age of 94 that he still goes into work and 419 00:20:58,610 --> 00:21:01,360 he, you know, does what he loves doing. 420 00:21:01,410 --> 00:21:03,260 I've, you know, I, I love what I do. 421 00:21:03,270 --> 00:21:07,400 And he, he, you know, he talks about skipping into work and 422 00:21:07,410 --> 00:21:10,020 I'm, I'm grateful that I have the same kind of experience 423 00:21:10,030 --> 00:21:14,460 skipping into work myself. So it's a lot of fun to do what 424 00:21:14,470 --> 00:21:17,770 you enjoy doing. So I, I really look up to people 425 00:21:17,780 --> 00:21:20,140 like Warren Buffett and Charlie Munger just for their life 426 00:21:20,190 --> 00:21:22,800 lessons and principles that they're willing to share, 427 00:21:22,810 --> 00:21:24,680 obviously not directly, but through their, you know, 428 00:21:24,690 --> 00:21:27,660 writings and, and just watching videos and their experiences. 429 00:21:27,670 --> 00:21:30,370 You know, it's always a good idea to, to learn from the 430 00:21:30,380 --> 00:21:33,660 experiences of others. I, I tried to do that on the 431 00:21:33,670 --> 00:21:36,700 legal front. I mean, I worked with some 432 00:21:36,710 --> 00:21:41,330 incredible lawyers in my life and you learn a lot from the 433 00:21:41,340 --> 00:21:43,560 lawyers that you work with. Now, a few names that come to 434 00:21:43,570 --> 00:21:46,210 mind. Goss currency was, for example, 435 00:21:46,220 --> 00:21:48,070 he taught me something incredibly valuable. 436 00:21:48,080 --> 00:21:49,690 You don't always answer your phone call, right. 437 00:21:49,700 --> 00:21:52,330 So if you got a phone on, you get a call from the client 438 00:21:52,340 --> 00:21:54,190 answer call clients really appreciate that. 439 00:21:54,200 --> 00:21:57,890 You have Pat Marley, for example, who is just not only 440 00:21:57,900 --> 00:22:01,410 incredible technical lawyer, but also an incredible, you know, 441 00:22:01,420 --> 00:22:05,130 rainmaker. So, and there's, there's lots of 442 00:22:05,140 --> 00:22:09,250 examples that, you know, you admire and, and learn from 443 00:22:09,260 --> 00:22:13,010 people, all sorts of things that Helen Kennebeck, another lawyer 444 00:22:13,020 --> 00:22:17,450 who, you know, you, you notice how he treats students and how 445 00:22:17,460 --> 00:22:19,670 he treats partners, etcetera. And everybody's treated the 446 00:22:19,680 --> 00:22:21,270 same. And I was just, you know, you 447 00:22:21,280 --> 00:22:25,010 observe that me saying what a gentleman and in, in the way 448 00:22:25,020 --> 00:22:28,920 that he approaches things. There's lots of just terrific 449 00:22:28,930 --> 00:22:32,390 lawyers out there who I was fortunate to work with at some 450 00:22:32,400 --> 00:22:35,400 point and to observe. Also, you know, I can't 451 00:22:35,410 --> 00:22:38,440 necessarily call them all my formal mentors, but there there 452 00:22:38,450 --> 00:22:42,450 are people that inspire me to be a better lawyer and who have 453 00:22:42,460 --> 00:22:44,850 taught me a lot along the way. I love that. 454 00:22:44,860 --> 00:22:47,280 No, I really like that you that you mentioned that especially 455 00:22:47,290 --> 00:22:49,810 when people might feel, you know, that they they need to 456 00:22:49,820 --> 00:22:51,980 have those formal mentor relationships. 457 00:22:51,990 --> 00:22:53,840 Mentorship can really be found anywhere. 458 00:22:53,850 --> 00:22:56,330 It can be found in books that can be found through, you know, 459 00:22:56,340 --> 00:22:58,080 seeing how other people live their lives. 460 00:22:58,150 --> 00:23:01,280 So I really appreciate that it doesn't necessarily come from a 461 00:23:01,290 --> 00:23:04,140 one-on-one conversation of somebody who's continually 462 00:23:04,150 --> 00:23:08,420 checking on you and all that. So really nice insight that one. 463 00:23:11,040 --> 00:23:14,260 You know, as we've been hearing from lawyers around the world on 464 00:23:14,270 --> 00:23:17,370 this show, one thing that's universal is the challenge of 465 00:23:17,380 --> 00:23:20,110 managing massive amounts of case materials. 466 00:23:20,160 --> 00:23:23,160 Whether you're dealing with witness statements in Sydney or 467 00:23:23,170 --> 00:23:27,530 reviewing contracts in Chicago, the volume can be overwhelming. 468 00:23:27,600 --> 00:23:31,470 That's why I wanted to tell you about Rev. Instead of analyzing 469 00:23:31,480 --> 00:23:35,730 documents one at a time, you upload everything to 1 workspace 470 00:23:35,800 --> 00:23:41,180 PDF's, audio recordings, video depositions, transcripts, Revs. 471 00:23:41,190 --> 00:23:45,630 AI analyzes them altogether and spots connections you'd never 472 00:23:45,640 --> 00:23:49,090 catch working file by file. Every insight comes with 473 00:23:49,100 --> 00:23:52,390 clickable citations that take you right back to the source. 474 00:23:52,440 --> 00:23:55,420 So when the AI finds a contradiction between witness 475 00:23:55,430 --> 00:23:57,900 statements, you can verify it instantly. 476 00:23:57,950 --> 00:24:01,020 Whether you're a law student or practicing attorney building 477 00:24:01,030 --> 00:24:04,800 your international career, Rev Insights gives you that edge our 478 00:24:04,810 --> 00:24:08,310 guests always talk about. Check it out at rev.com. 479 00:24:12,410 --> 00:24:15,930 To to wrap up today's episode, I was wondering if you have a 480 00:24:15,940 --> 00:24:19,180 piece of advice that you'd like to give to law students or 481 00:24:19,190 --> 00:24:21,430 lawyers who are just starting off their careers. 482 00:24:21,500 --> 00:24:25,640 These podcasts main audience are people in that demographic right 483 00:24:25,650 --> 00:24:27,720 now. So I'd love to hear what kind of 484 00:24:27,730 --> 00:24:31,030 thing maybe you wish you had heard earlier in your career or 485 00:24:31,040 --> 00:24:34,350 something that looking at the market nowadays you notice. 486 00:24:34,410 --> 00:24:35,830 Love to hear some of your thoughts. 487 00:24:35,900 --> 00:24:38,790 Yeah, sure. I mean, I think law students 488 00:24:38,800 --> 00:24:41,510 have a lot of options. So they could go and work at a 489 00:24:41,520 --> 00:24:44,990 large firm, a small firm, they could work in government, but 490 00:24:45,000 --> 00:24:46,410 they cannot pursue career in law. 491 00:24:46,420 --> 00:24:49,930 I think it's all subject to individual preferences, right? 492 00:24:49,940 --> 00:24:53,800 And it's not for me to you tell anyone what what they will enjoy 493 00:24:53,810 --> 00:24:55,520 doing. And I think it's important for 494 00:24:55,530 --> 00:24:57,770 people to consider what they enjoy doing and making that 495 00:24:57,780 --> 00:24:58,680 decision. Yeah. 496 00:24:58,750 --> 00:25:01,780 You know, I, I always thought that, you know, I want to live 497 00:25:01,790 --> 00:25:04,740 my life in a way that minimizes the number of regrets that I 498 00:25:04,750 --> 00:25:07,000 have. And the path that I'm following 499 00:25:07,010 --> 00:25:09,900 is, is the one that that that allows me to do that right? 500 00:25:09,910 --> 00:25:12,660 That if if I'm old, I want to say I live the life the way I 501 00:25:12,670 --> 00:25:15,740 wanted to live, live it. And I find that sometimes people 502 00:25:15,790 --> 00:25:17,800 don't do that. Sometimes people do things for 503 00:25:17,810 --> 00:25:19,900 procedure, for money or for other things. 504 00:25:19,990 --> 00:25:22,890 And they don't necessarily enjoy their life and, and, and, and 505 00:25:22,900 --> 00:25:27,640 they are not happy. I would rather be, have no money 506 00:25:27,710 --> 00:25:30,580 and be very happy and what with what I'm doing there rather than 507 00:25:30,590 --> 00:25:32,100 have lots of money and big miserable. 508 00:25:32,190 --> 00:25:34,660 That's kind of been my general approach in life. 509 00:25:34,670 --> 00:25:37,950 And I think it worked really well for me and I hope it works 510 00:25:37,960 --> 00:25:40,780 well for others. As I said, I skip into work 511 00:25:40,790 --> 00:25:42,770 every single day kind of like we're involved with this. 512 00:25:42,780 --> 00:25:44,220 It's, it's, it's, it's a lot of fun. 513 00:25:44,230 --> 00:25:48,040 I enjoy opening up emails. I look forward to Mondays. 514 00:25:48,050 --> 00:25:51,250 I mean, it's just some weird things for, for potentially for 515 00:25:51,260 --> 00:25:53,120 some people, right, But but not for me. 516 00:25:53,130 --> 00:25:57,920 And I find that if you enjoy what you're doing, if you enjoy 517 00:25:58,050 --> 00:26:00,890 the people that you're working with and you get the right 518 00:26:00,900 --> 00:26:03,940 spouse, the rest of the life doesn't really matter too much. 519 00:26:04,010 --> 00:26:06,570 Get those three things right. The rest is easy. 520 00:26:06,630 --> 00:26:11,140 So that's kind of my parting devices that are trying to focus 521 00:26:11,150 --> 00:26:14,680 on and on on those three things as students get a job or do what 522 00:26:14,690 --> 00:26:16,980 you enjoy doing, work with people you enjoy working with 523 00:26:16,990 --> 00:26:20,380 and and and and and find the right spouse and then the rest 524 00:26:20,470 --> 00:26:22,200 should just take care of that on my. 525 00:26:22,210 --> 00:26:24,800 Mind, that's fantastic. Well, Alex, really thank you so 526 00:26:24,810 --> 00:26:27,720 much for taking the time to be a part of the podcast today. 527 00:26:27,730 --> 00:26:29,920 Really appreciate. It my pleasure Claudia, thank 528 00:26:29,930 --> 00:26:32,090 you very much for having. Me Thank you all for tuning in 529 00:26:32,100 --> 00:26:33,530 and we'll see you on the next episode.