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Hello, everybody. 
Welcome to another episode of 

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Studying Law Around the World. 
Today, I have the opportunity to

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interview Amanda Haverstick. 
We'll be talking about a few 

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different things, but Amanda has
had such an incredible career. 

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She's been a lawyer, She has 
worked with helping students 

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with their careers at a 
university, and she's a book 

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author. 
She's a LinkedIn superstar and 

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so many other things. 
So thank you so much for joining

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us today, Commander. 
Thank you for taking the time. 

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You're welcome. 
And I, as I always say, I think 

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it looks like kind of good on 
the outside. 

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And then when you get off course
from my perspective, I'm sort of

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trying to still figure out what 
I'm doing. 

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So is so thank you for that 
intro. 

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Well, thank you for your time. 
And to start off, I, I'm sure 

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that most of our listeners are 
already quite familiar with your

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work in the social media and 
with DRL and so many other good 

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things you've put out there. 
But would you mind introducing 

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yourself to your listeners a 
little bit and telling us about 

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your journey? 
Sure. 

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I am a former big law lawyer. 
I worked for about 20 years in 

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big law. 
I worked in house for a couple 

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of those years. 
I'm a mother to three and I 

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stopping a lawyer about nine 
years ago now 8 or 9, and I took

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some years off. 
I have a big gap. 

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And then COVID happened and I 
think as a lot of people found 

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it sort of looked life in the 
face of you and what are you 

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doing? 
And so I was turning 50 and I 

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just kind of on a whim, someone 
was like, oh, you really should 

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do social media marketing, which
I had no idea what was that. 

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So I just went starting one post
at a time back in early, I mean,

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September 2021, I guess it was 
and it really took off And there

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was, it was great. 
I started with a mission to help

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really the one out. 
And I had started my first time 

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tutoring was earlier in 2021, 
and it was during the pandemic. 

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So everything was really to be a
student then and have it all be 

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remote was extremely difficult. 
And so out of that, I just, but 

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legal writing is always so hard 
for people. 

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So that was something that I 
knew that I had a lot of 

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experience in. 
And it's really evolved and led 

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to a book, Dear 1L Notes to 
nurture a new legal writer, 

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which is on Amazon. 
And I, the people who have read 

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it, I mean, and it's done well. 
I mean, it's just me by myself. 

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I didn't have a publisher or 
anything, but they've all said 

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that it's really indispensable. 
And now that some people have 

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it, everyone really needs to 
read it before they start law 

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school because there's some core
lessons that you, that you're 

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only going to learn if you read 
it. 

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So, so that's how I have a 
website which has a lot and, and

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I've been, yeah, the whole 
LinkedIn thinks crazy. 

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Don't you think it's wild? 
I don't know. 

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I, I didn't set out to do any of
this, but I, yeah, I have a big 

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following on LinkedIn and it's 
been lovely. 

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That's so fantastic. 
You, you've had really a reached

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career as as you mentioned, 
well, you know, big law, 

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in-house teaching, coaching. 
And if I may ask you, if you 

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could go back to your very first
day as a lawyer, what kind of 

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advice would you give yourself 
back then? 

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Well, my tongue and cheek. 
My short little answer is to 

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always carry a pen and a pad of 
paper when you go into a 

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partner's office because I 
learned the very hard way when I

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didn't on my very first day and 
was sent back to my office to go

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get pen and a paper to write 
with and it was most unpleasant.

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So that's probably what I would 
have said that I have a 

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romanticized view or had a 
romanticized experience in big 

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law because I met my husband on 
the first day of work. 

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So in Westlaw training to boot. 
So, and before that, I had been 

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in Boston for law school and I 
had this big decision was like 

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going to stay in Boston or go 
back to New York where I was 

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from and had grown up and all my
friends were starting to go. 

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And I was completely single. 
And I mean, I was 26 and I, Long

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story short, had just sort of, I
went to New York, bought my own 

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apartment, started my life as a 
career woman, and then met my 

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husband, my current husband, 
Matt. 

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So that's really fun. 
And so for the first year or so,

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I was sort of, I mean, I was 
madly in love with someone who's

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at work and then we got married.
So it was like a really happy 

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experience. 
So I would say that you never 

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know what's going to happen. 
Keep, you know, always be open 

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to new new possibilities. 
Well, that's fantastic. 

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Yeah. 
That has been one of the fun 

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things of talking to different 
lawyers because things seem to 

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happen when people, you know, 
show up at work, have a good 

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attitude, beat in their personal
life, in their professional 

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life. 
Just very unexpected more often 

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than not. 
But things just happen. 

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And I don't know what you call 
that a specifically, but it's 

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being just amazing to witness 
that and to hear all about it. 

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Well, I think that I really 
think that you need to just do 

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you put yourself in situations 
where you're doing what you 

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would do regardless of who 
you're going to meet and do 

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something that you are just set 
to do. 

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Because then once you do that, I
think you look attractive and 

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you attract people because you 
look like you got stuff 

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together. 
I don't know, We're all trying 

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to figure it. 
Out very enough. 

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Fair enough. 
So I did a little digging on 

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your website and all of that and
I and I noticed something that I

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really thought it was amazing. 
You mentioned something along 

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the lines that you really love 
seeing your students outgrow 

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you. 
And I was just wondering if 

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there is like a one moment that 
made you really proud as a as a 

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coach, as a mentor, as somebody 
who's who's there to, you know, 

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teach and cheer on future 
generations in a way. 

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That I've been very fortunate to
have had wonderful interactions 

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even when I was in big law. 
The thing I love the most was 

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the mentoring and the the 
guiding of junior associates. 

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But I will get my recent story 
is last summer I had a student, 

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a pre law student reach out to 
me and he was very insecure 

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about starting law school 
because he was a musician and 

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had spent college studying music
mostly and had also done math 

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law school. 
He just was worried English was 

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his second language to boot. 
So there was another layer and 

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he just thought, I mean, he 
really, and he, he was so 

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brilliant, but he and he was 
going to a T14, which is the 

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sort of top ranked fourteen in 
law schools in our country. 

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And so we worked on it with A1 
on one to get him ready for law 

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school. 
And it's, it was a five session 

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one-on-one thing that we did, 
but he left the fifth one and 

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said, OK, I think I'm ready to 
start, but I want to save it for

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before exams and what have you. 
Long story short, he got 

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straight A's in everything. 
His first memo was like used as 

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a model for the class. 
And so I would get these notes 

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from him throughout the 
semester. 

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I mean, it was just, it made me 
feel so good because this was 

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the first student that I had 
really spent a lot of time with 

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helping them get ready for the 
first year of law school and be 

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prepared to come in with their 
like, are their command of 

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English language as rock solid 
as possible? 

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Because as you know, once you 
filter, you Add all the layers 

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of complexity with the legal 
terms and the complex ideas. 

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If you, I mean, if you need to 
have really good writing, that's

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just perfect form wise so that 
these, the concepts, when you 

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add them into the to regular 
writing makes sense and they're 

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complicated. 
So he did such a great job. 

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I was so proud of him and he's 
just soaring. 

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So that's my proud moment. 
That's fantastic. 

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That's so good to hear. 
And and going on to legal riding

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one of your specialties here, 
I'm sure you can feel 

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intimidating. 
You just mentioned this student,

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but I'm sure sometimes even for 
seasoned lawyers, I feel things 

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can, you know, be something that
they they need to double check 

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or talk with somebody over. 
So is there such a thing as like

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a big myth that you see people 
in the legal industry thinking 

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about or believing about in 
regards to legal writing? 

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I don't know that I would say a 
myth necessarily, as I see the 

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problem as legal writing and the
great advice from a couple 

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experts at the top really just 
is not filtering down to 

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everyone. 
It's legal writing has always 

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been something that's that, you 
know, most erudite of scholars 

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and you think of, I think of old
men and dusty robes and this 

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sort of cloak and it's just 
scary. 

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It's like mystical. 
It's so abstract. 

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It seems like there is an 
unending university universe of 

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things to learn. 
And there's also, you'll have 

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different partners writing 
styles, some of which are not 

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necessarily good, that go into 
the mix of how 1 needs to write.

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And there's also depending on 
what you're writing and what 

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your audience is, it will all 
change. 

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And I think that there are so 
many people who struggle with 

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legal writing. 
And I really believe it's that 

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one of the root causes is that 
people are starting law school 

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and they don't remember grammar 
from middle school. 

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They haven't thought about it. 
It's not, it's not, you know, 

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something that's really a focus 
in college where really they're 

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measuring substance and, and 
your idea is not your, your 

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grammar. 
So I, I want to, I really think 

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that we need to like take off 
the like, this is like in this 

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dusty book from old time that we
have to figure out and really 

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make it more accessible to 
everyone. 

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And so, I mean, that's sort of 
what I think, at least in terms 

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of me and I and my goal of sort 
of bringing, trying to make it 

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easy for people to learn because
it's so hard legal writing, 

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right? 
I mean, and it takes so long and

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you beat yourself up and lawyers
spend so much time writing that 

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it's really, there's a lot of 
time spent alone writing at your

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computer and beating yourself up
because you're not sure if your 

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words sound right or if you're 
writing it right. 

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So that's kind of, that's what I
really want to change about 

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legal writing and how we learn 
it. 

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I. 
Love that. 

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So we, we spoke about a few 
different things, went over a 

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little bit of your career, a 
little bit of, you know, ideas, 

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moments of success, talked about
legal writing. 

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And if I may ask you, you know, 
you bring a lot of gems from 

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your from your book, Dear 1L on 
LinkedIn every once in a while. 

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And I'm thinking here also 
regarding professionals who are 

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a little more mature in the 
legal field. 

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What would you say to someone 
who's feeling a little stuck in 

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their career and maybe is scared
to pivot or trying something 

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new, be, you know, getting out 
of a law firm, going and 

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shooting house, or be it, you 
know, going through a quasi 

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legal role or something 
completely out of the legal 

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field. 
What are some of your thoughts? 

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It's difficult because the 
decision is all wrapped up in 

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money most of the time. 
And the practical reality can be

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that because it was for me, you 
know, kept working in big law 

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because I needed that money and 
I it, it just was, I had three 

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children and I was trying to do 
it all. 

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I mean, it was hard. 
And so I think that if you're at

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the stage where you could 
financially accept it, and it's,

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it really depends on what kind 
of income you need to make. 

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But what I would say to all 
really, and, and I'm just going 

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to keep stressing the importance
of communication skills. 

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But if you keep investing in 
your skills and your, your 

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speaking skills, you're writing,
you're interacting with people, 

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that's going to be really 
helpful no matter what you 

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decide to do. 
So if you're still kind of stuck

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and you need to be stuck for 
money or you, or you're not 

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quite sure yet what you want to 
do, I would, I would advise to 

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work on those things because and
don't feel like you're stuck, 

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like you're actually doing 
something that's going to help 

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you later. 
So that it's useful use of your 

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time that you should be writing 
and practicing and learning. 

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And I think so, so that's that 
in terms of people who really 

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are just need to push and who 
are ready and need to move on. 

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I would say that there is so 
there's so much life after big 

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law and you can really get, you 
get in this. 

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I found a big law. 
It's such a hierarchy. 

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And the corner office partners 
are like kings and their sort 

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of, I mean, they walked down the
hall and you just sort of, oh, 

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royalties walking. 
I mean, it's, it's you feel the 

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divide, the hierarchy. 
There's also a big usually age 

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divide, which exacerbates it. 
And so once when I went in 

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house, the biggest difference I 
noticed is that people would say

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thank you and be so appreciative
when you would do something. 

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And that's kind of a bad 
commentary I think on the 

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culture just generally at law 
firms where you're just a 

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service person to the clients 
and you kind of no one care, you

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know, about how you feel about 
the feedback you're getting. 

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So that's kind of a long winded 
answer. 

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That makes a lot of sense taking
that into consideration here, 

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you know, between writing, 
coaching, family life, you must 

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have a really full schedule and 
and also keeping on top of all 

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the notifications on LinkedIn as
well. 

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But if I may ask you on a more 
personal side, what what's your 

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favorite way to recharge or find
a moment of calm after all of? 

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That actually, I mean, I think 
it's a little bit I, I am busy 

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only because I spend a lot of 
time creating and thinking and I

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don't take on very many clients 
in part because I'm trying to 

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figure out whether I need to 
make, how much money I need to 

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make myself and what, whether 
that's, you know, how important 

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that goal is and all of it. 
But I would say the fun things. 

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I have three daughters that are 
in their early 20s and I just 

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love listening to music and 
talking to them. 

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We have really fun times and I, 
they, I see them And so it's 

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lovely. 
And and that's probably my just 

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greatest sort of enjoyment. 
Fantastic and she Rep up today's

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episode. 
I I thought I'd try a little bit

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of a fun more silly over 
question here. 

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But you know, you've lived in 
some great cities, work that 

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some iconic places like 
Hershey's. 

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And if you could describe your 
career journey using a candy 

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bar, which one would you pick 
and why? 

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So I didn't know this question 
in advance. 

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I'm going to spill your beans. 
So I have had a little thinking 

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time about it. 
This is not necessarily what 

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would have come to me right 
away, But when I was at Hershey,

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they had sweet and salty bar and
I thought maybe the combination,

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something about the contrast, 
because in my whole career, I've

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always I've really, I've been a 
mom and I've been a lawyer and 

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balancing them and they're so 
different. 

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And then also I had always 
wanted to be a teacher and I 

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kind of ended up going to law 
school. 

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That's another long story that I
won't say, but I I think that 

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somehow these two different 
things, the writing and the 

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lawyer and just sort of came 
together all but none of it 

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00:15:51,190 --> 00:15:53,780
looks. 
I mean, it was not planned and 

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there was so much inner torment 
along the way. 

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But then after a certain point 
you think oht this all makes 

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sense looking backwards. 
That's amazing. 

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That's amazing. 
Well, I just wanted to really 

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thank you so much for your time 
for speaking with me today and 

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thank you all for tuning into 
this episode and hope to see you

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on the next one.