1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:02,560 I am sitting in my apartment in Ishvat Karambiavna. 2 00:00:02,960 --> 00:00:06,440 I am surrounded by boxes, bubble wrap and lots of garbage. 3 00:00:06,960 --> 00:00:10,360 We're moving next week, and once this episode drops, I will no 4 00:00:10,360 --> 00:00:13,920 longer be a member of the Kohl in Ishvat Karambiavna. 5 00:00:14,840 --> 00:00:17,840 There are so many question marks about what life is going to be 6 00:00:17,840 --> 00:00:20,600 like afterwards. I really hope that this podcast 7 00:00:20,600 --> 00:00:22,920 will continue to grow and develop, and I'll be able to 8 00:00:22,920 --> 00:00:26,680 make the time and space to invest as much energy as I can 9 00:00:26,760 --> 00:00:29,400 because I really have enjoyed this journey so, so much. 10 00:00:29,600 --> 00:00:31,560 But for the next two weeks, we're going to be doing 11 00:00:31,560 --> 00:00:32,720 something a little bit different. 12 00:00:32,720 --> 00:00:36,000 As the summer winds to a close, we're going to reflect back on 13 00:00:36,000 --> 00:00:38,240 some of the very important conversations we've been having 14 00:00:38,240 --> 00:00:40,640 on the Stark Team podcasts. It's really special. 15 00:00:40,640 --> 00:00:44,280 To hear that the episodes that we've put out have really 16 00:00:44,280 --> 00:00:46,160 spawned some very interesting conversations. 17 00:00:46,160 --> 00:00:48,240 Some people reach out to me with great feedback. 18 00:00:48,240 --> 00:00:50,360 Some people discuss it with their friends, their colleagues, 19 00:00:50,360 --> 00:00:51,800 their families, on their Shabbos tables. 20 00:00:52,120 --> 00:00:54,560 And that's been very inspiring and heart warming for me to 21 00:00:54,560 --> 00:00:56,840 hear. And because I think this topic 22 00:00:56,840 --> 00:00:59,280 is really about the conversation, it's really about 23 00:00:59,280 --> 00:01:00,880 the journey, it's really about the challenge. 24 00:01:00,880 --> 00:01:03,600 There are no easy answers, there are no quick fixes. 25 00:01:03,800 --> 00:01:06,080 So I thought that it would be really cool to take some of 26 00:01:06,080 --> 00:01:08,800 these conversations and put them on the air, record them for 27 00:01:08,800 --> 00:01:12,240 everyone to hear and listen to. I firmly believe that these 28 00:01:12,240 --> 00:01:15,640 follow up conversations are among the most important aspects 29 00:01:15,640 --> 00:01:18,240 of Stark Tank and therefore I'm really excited to do this 30 00:01:18,240 --> 00:01:20,920 two-part series. In today's episode, we will be 31 00:01:20,920 --> 00:01:23,480 speaking with a listener who some of you may have heard of. 32 00:01:23,760 --> 00:01:27,840 His name is Michael Bloch. He spent over 20 years at a 33 00:01:27,840 --> 00:01:31,440 small company that you may have heard of called McKinsey, and it 34 00:01:31,440 --> 00:01:34,360 might be cheesy to call him a McKenzie level Mensch, but 35 00:01:34,360 --> 00:01:36,200 that's absolutely an accurate portrayal. 36 00:01:36,600 --> 00:01:39,640 And we spoke about some of his reactions to the podcast, 37 00:01:39,840 --> 00:01:42,400 especially his unique perspective as a Baal Chuva. 38 00:01:43,280 --> 00:01:45,800 As always, I love to receive all feedback. 39 00:01:45,920 --> 00:01:47,920 My e-mail is jakobwolf@gmail.com. 40 00:01:48,240 --> 00:01:50,560 And a reminder that we have our quiet WhatsApp group. 41 00:01:50,560 --> 00:01:52,240 The link is in the show notes, so you can go over there and 42 00:01:52,240 --> 00:01:55,040 check that out. My name is Jakob Wolf and this 43 00:01:55,280 --> 00:02:11,520 start. So when I started this podcast, 44 00:02:11,520 --> 00:02:14,040 a lot of people reached out to me with different suggestions of 45 00:02:14,040 --> 00:02:15,200 people who I should be speaking to. 46 00:02:15,200 --> 00:02:17,920 And one of the names that came up a lot was the name Michael 47 00:02:17,920 --> 00:02:19,680 Bloch. And I had heard a little bit of 48 00:02:19,680 --> 00:02:21,160 Michael Bloch. I had heard about some of the 49 00:02:21,160 --> 00:02:22,520 very, very impressive things he's done. 50 00:02:22,520 --> 00:02:24,560 And I had really admired some of his work from afar. 51 00:02:24,880 --> 00:02:27,480 And when I reached out to him, I was really honored and humbled 52 00:02:27,680 --> 00:02:30,880 that he's actually a listener of the Stark Tank podcast. 53 00:02:30,880 --> 00:02:33,160 So I'm happy to have a conversation with Michael 54 00:02:33,160 --> 00:02:35,280 following up on some of these ideas and topics. 55 00:02:35,440 --> 00:02:37,760 So, Michael, welcome to the show and thank you for joining us 56 00:02:37,760 --> 00:02:40,880 today. My pleasure, Jakov, it's good to 57 00:02:41,240 --> 00:02:44,240 see you again in person and, and, and and be on there for 58 00:02:44,240 --> 00:02:46,560 once. So maybe tell us a little bit 59 00:02:46,560 --> 00:02:47,960 about your background. You have a very interesting 60 00:02:47,960 --> 00:02:50,280 story, a very interesting professional path, and also a 61 00:02:50,280 --> 00:02:52,760 tour journey that goes alongside it. 62 00:02:52,760 --> 00:02:54,600 So maybe you give us a little bit of that background to start 63 00:02:54,600 --> 00:02:56,640 off. I'll give you the the personal 64 00:02:56,640 --> 00:02:59,560 professional side and then go back to the sort of thorough 65 00:02:59,560 --> 00:03:02,440 journey in parallel with the with with with the rest some I'm 66 00:03:02,440 --> 00:03:06,640 from Switzerland originally. I grew up there, studied at the 67 00:03:06,640 --> 00:03:09,120 local college business and technology, worked a bit in the 68 00:03:09,120 --> 00:03:13,680 banking world and then left for the USI spent two years, one in 69 00:03:13,680 --> 00:03:15,560 California in Berkeley, one in New York. 70 00:03:15,560 --> 00:03:18,920 I was studying for a PhD was the early times of the business use 71 00:03:18,920 --> 00:03:20,600 of the Internet. That's what I was studying. 72 00:03:21,040 --> 00:03:24,800 But then I met my wife, came back to Europe, spend a few 73 00:03:24,800 --> 00:03:27,360 months in the university trying to write up a PhD that I had 74 00:03:27,360 --> 00:03:31,400 started, but then realized I enjoyed consulting, which I was 75 00:03:31,400 --> 00:03:34,280 doing on the side much more than writing up the PhD. 76 00:03:34,280 --> 00:03:38,040 So I left college, joined McKinsey, that was just building 77 00:03:38,040 --> 00:03:43,000 a technology practice then, and spent 23 years at McKinsey, most 78 00:03:43,000 --> 00:03:44,680 of them as a partner, a senior partner. 79 00:03:45,120 --> 00:03:48,280 We spent seven years in in Switzerland and for five years I 80 00:03:48,280 --> 00:03:52,000 led the technology practice in France and we made Dalia in 81 00:03:52,000 --> 00:03:56,280 2010, literally 4014 years ago, 3 days from now. 82 00:03:57,480 --> 00:04:00,120 And I stayed with McKinsey for 11 years here in Israel, serving 83 00:04:00,120 --> 00:04:03,480 clients all around the world, mostly large companies, helping 84 00:04:03,480 --> 00:04:07,080 them with business, with operations, transformation 85 00:04:07,080 --> 00:04:09,880 strategy. But every year I also worked 86 00:04:09,880 --> 00:04:12,080 with nonprofits. I realized quickly you could 87 00:04:12,600 --> 00:04:14,760 help nonprofits with the same business toolkit. 88 00:04:15,240 --> 00:04:17,240 So I worked with two or three nonprofits a year on their 89 00:04:17,240 --> 00:04:20,040 strategy on the growth. And frankly, I felt these were 90 00:04:20,040 --> 00:04:22,920 amazing projects that were highly impactful at A at a 91 00:04:22,920 --> 00:04:26,120 different level than, you know, saving another few $100 million 92 00:04:26,120 --> 00:04:27,880 for a bank. But for me, they, they, they 93 00:04:27,880 --> 00:04:30,040 matter more. So about three years ago, I 94 00:04:30,040 --> 00:04:33,880 decided to leave McKinsey, partly because I was tired and 95 00:04:33,920 --> 00:04:36,280 and I wanted something new, partly because I really want to 96 00:04:36,280 --> 00:04:38,160 spend more time with non profits. 97 00:04:39,120 --> 00:04:42,480 I then looked for the next concept, and after many 98 00:04:42,480 --> 00:04:44,880 discussions with many people, I realized that the people who 99 00:04:44,880 --> 00:04:48,560 needed the most help were the philanthropic foundations that 100 00:04:48,560 --> 00:04:52,360 had hundreds of millions, sometimes billions of dollars of 101 00:04:52,360 --> 00:04:55,520 money to invest, to give here in Israel. 102 00:04:55,920 --> 00:04:58,920 And I could help these people either grow the nonprofits they 103 00:04:58,920 --> 00:05:03,000 were supporting or solve social issues that say you want to 104 00:05:03,000 --> 00:05:06,480 increase the amount of computer science students in Israel. 105 00:05:06,520 --> 00:05:09,480 You've got $20 million to do it. What's the best approach, the 106 00:05:09,480 --> 00:05:10,880 best path? How do you get that done? 107 00:05:11,480 --> 00:05:13,520 And last I discovered that there were a number of new 108 00:05:13,800 --> 00:05:16,080 philanthropic funders that wanted to start giving in 109 00:05:16,080 --> 00:05:19,400 Israel, either people from the high tech scene who had made, 110 00:05:19,520 --> 00:05:22,120 you know, hundreds of millions or people from the US who went 111 00:05:22,120 --> 00:05:24,680 new to Israel. And so I build a small team 112 00:05:24,680 --> 00:05:27,760 around me, mostly former consultants, and together we've 113 00:05:27,760 --> 00:05:32,800 done something like 30 projects and I love it now in parallel 114 00:05:32,800 --> 00:05:35,240 with that. So I grew up in a non in a non 115 00:05:35,240 --> 00:05:39,640 religious family in, in Switzerland when I was in the US 116 00:05:39,640 --> 00:05:42,200 was the beginning of my, my chuva. 117 00:05:42,960 --> 00:05:46,000 Frankly, I think it was the, the availability of Torah books that 118 00:05:46,240 --> 00:05:48,560 started the journey. I had always been interested in 119 00:05:48,560 --> 00:05:51,920 Torah, but there was nothing to learn from in Switzerland where 120 00:05:51,920 --> 00:05:55,520 I grew up or in, in French. But suddenly in the US, you 121 00:05:55,520 --> 00:05:58,720 know, I was faced with this world of Kirov, particularly in 122 00:05:58,720 --> 00:06:01,880 New York, you know, Esha Torah rather by Bofal and the Lincoln 123 00:06:01,880 --> 00:06:04,120 Square scene. There were so many opportunities 124 00:06:04,120 --> 00:06:06,800 to learn and I took advantage of that. 125 00:06:08,760 --> 00:06:12,520 And then over time, try to adapt reading here and there at some 126 00:06:12,520 --> 00:06:15,960 point, maybe about 15 years ago also, you know, with my kids 127 00:06:15,960 --> 00:06:19,760 growing up, I didn't mention we've got three kids from 22 now 128 00:06:19,760 --> 00:06:22,080 to 13. I decided to be a bit more 129 00:06:22,080 --> 00:06:25,560 systematic about my, my learning and starting going through, I 130 00:06:25,560 --> 00:06:28,920 would say the, the, the, the major works of Torah in the 131 00:06:28,920 --> 00:06:33,160 systematic way, starting with the, you know, all of Michnetto. 132 00:06:33,200 --> 00:06:34,760 I'm quite systematic in my learning. 133 00:06:34,760 --> 00:06:37,000 So then I went through Dafiomi. There are many people who 134 00:06:37,000 --> 00:06:40,200 finished Dafiomi. I, I was joking to say that very 135 00:06:40,200 --> 00:06:42,840 few finished Dafiomi in and out plane, which is what I did. 136 00:06:42,840 --> 00:06:47,400 I, I learned mostly on my business trips and then, you 137 00:06:47,400 --> 00:06:49,160 know, I did Havuto here and there. 138 00:06:49,720 --> 00:06:53,720 And today I spend, you know, 10 to 20 hours a week learning a 139 00:06:53,720 --> 00:06:56,000 little bit, depending on the, on the workload that a significant 140 00:06:56,000 --> 00:07:00,880 amount of, of time and Hashem have been able to grow in, in 141 00:07:00,880 --> 00:07:03,000 my, in my capabilities. You know, even though there's 142 00:07:03,000 --> 00:07:04,520 there's, there's still so much to be done. 143 00:07:04,760 --> 00:07:08,320 And how old were you when this journey started on the learning? 144 00:07:08,920 --> 00:07:11,920 Oh, probably. You know, I was 20 when I 145 00:07:11,920 --> 00:07:16,160 started making chuva gradually, but I would say it accelerated 146 00:07:16,360 --> 00:07:18,920 since I came to Israel. Also because coming to Israel 147 00:07:18,920 --> 00:07:21,800 forced me to learn Hebrew. That gave me access to a whole 148 00:07:21,800 --> 00:07:27,000 new range of learning capabilities and and of course, 149 00:07:27,000 --> 00:07:29,000 you know, the availability of Torah teachers here, you can 150 00:07:29,000 --> 00:07:33,440 walk to the neighborhood shul and find that would be rather 151 00:07:33,440 --> 00:07:36,560 name in in Europe. So a lot more opportunities to 152 00:07:36,560 --> 00:07:40,440 learn from from everybody. And I've always felt that maybe 153 00:07:40,440 --> 00:07:43,680 one of the really big challenges that someone in your place would 154 00:07:43,680 --> 00:07:46,240 probably feel would be the the language, which is such a 155 00:07:46,240 --> 00:07:48,160 barrier. Did you have any sort of Hebrew 156 00:07:48,160 --> 00:07:50,680 background even in the non religious way from from your 157 00:07:50,680 --> 00:07:54,360 childhood? No, in reality not, and it's 158 00:07:54,360 --> 00:07:57,040 been a real challenge. It took me 3 years. 159 00:07:57,040 --> 00:08:00,240 Well look, I was travelling every week, speaking French at 160 00:08:00,240 --> 00:08:03,160 home and English with at work. But it took me 3 years of 161 00:08:03,160 --> 00:08:06,240 intense effort to learn to speak Hebrew well to the level of 162 00:08:06,240 --> 00:08:08,680 speaking with the CEO here in in Israel. 163 00:08:09,400 --> 00:08:12,480 It took me a few more years to learn enough Hebrew to 164 00:08:12,480 --> 00:08:16,800 understand Moschioim and to be able to read, say, Alaric works. 165 00:08:18,320 --> 00:08:21,440 I'm not working on the Aramaic, which is, you know, another set 166 00:08:21,440 --> 00:08:23,440 of challenge. And it's harder to speak Aramaic 167 00:08:23,720 --> 00:08:26,560 with your friends. So, but I'm not systematically 168 00:08:26,560 --> 00:08:29,600 going through, you know, list of common words and keywords and 169 00:08:29,600 --> 00:08:32,840 trying to grow in, in, in, in, in Gamara learning on an 170 00:08:32,919 --> 00:08:36,280 independent way. I, I, I've started to switch my 171 00:08:36,280 --> 00:08:38,600 asphalt Gamara from the red one to the blue one, if you know 172 00:08:38,600 --> 00:08:40,720 what I mean. And that's a challenge on it's 173 00:08:40,760 --> 00:08:43,480 own, but it's also a, you know, satisfaction that, you know, you 174 00:08:43,480 --> 00:08:45,200 grow up in your in your capabilities. 175 00:08:46,200 --> 00:08:48,000 OK, so let's talk a little bit about Stark Tank. 176 00:08:48,720 --> 00:08:53,640 What do you think for you has been so meaningful about the 177 00:08:53,640 --> 00:08:56,120 discourse in general? Just very broadly, the idea of 178 00:08:56,120 --> 00:08:58,800 having a podcast out, being a mentor in the workforce, where 179 00:08:58,880 --> 00:09:01,800 in your life has that come in in the most, in the most important 180 00:09:01,800 --> 00:09:04,920 way? Well, look, I think everybody, 181 00:09:04,920 --> 00:09:07,480 and I think it's particularly true for for for about it to buy 182 00:09:07,480 --> 00:09:09,720 and people who are sort of deep in the business world, but 183 00:09:09,880 --> 00:09:13,080 everybody struggles with the balance of, you know, business 184 00:09:13,080 --> 00:09:15,480 life and personal life. And in this case, business life, 185 00:09:15,480 --> 00:09:18,120 personal life and Torah life or Torah learning. 186 00:09:18,840 --> 00:09:21,880 And I think the podcast is the first one that sort of addresses 187 00:09:21,880 --> 00:09:25,160 the issue heads on others. You know, you can you can find 188 00:09:25,160 --> 00:09:27,760 content and you know, Ravi Asaman wrote some very 189 00:09:27,760 --> 00:09:31,200 interesting books on the topic. Ravi Loplansky did the same. 190 00:09:31,520 --> 00:09:34,640 But I think you and the podcast, you know, are the first ones to 191 00:09:34,640 --> 00:09:37,480 sort of head on, address the challenge and bring different 192 00:09:37,480 --> 00:09:39,840 perspectives, some more Torah based, some more business based 193 00:09:39,840 --> 00:09:42,560 to the, to the, to the balancing challenge. 194 00:09:43,080 --> 00:09:45,800 And I thought that was that was incredibly helpful. 195 00:09:45,800 --> 00:09:48,000 I thought, you know, like every podcast, it's an, it's an 196 00:09:48,000 --> 00:09:50,040 opportunity to hear from remarkable people. 197 00:09:50,560 --> 00:09:53,040 But here it's remarkable people who've saw the challenge, which 198 00:09:53,040 --> 00:09:57,160 I find most interesting and most, you know, personal. 199 00:09:58,400 --> 00:10:00,840 And so in terms of getting inspiration, getting practical 200 00:10:00,840 --> 00:10:02,680 advice, the podcast has been invaluable. 201 00:10:03,840 --> 00:10:06,240 I think somehow you've also managed to, I would say, build a 202 00:10:06,240 --> 00:10:08,520 small community. Interestingly, a lot of the 203 00:10:08,520 --> 00:10:10,600 people you you had on the show and I was yesterday going 204 00:10:10,600 --> 00:10:13,880 through the list are people I've, I've known personally, 205 00:10:13,880 --> 00:10:16,080 I've met repeatedly. You know, people like Xavier 206 00:10:16,080 --> 00:10:20,760 Heinitz, Mormonic, Ralf Pfeffer, Nohan Basserman, you know, your 207 00:10:20,760 --> 00:10:24,080 father, Josh Wolf, Mark Lesnick, all, all are people who I, I 208 00:10:24,080 --> 00:10:27,440 respect met with, work with in some, in some context. 209 00:10:27,960 --> 00:10:30,400 You've brought many famous authors whose books I've read, 210 00:10:30,400 --> 00:10:33,360 you know, give student Vava Shavais, Michael Eisenberg, Ralf 211 00:10:33,360 --> 00:10:36,280 Opansky, Ralf David Lapin. So you feel like you're, you're 212 00:10:36,280 --> 00:10:39,240 meeting your friends and your colleagues and, and your masters 213 00:10:39,240 --> 00:10:41,960 and your teachers. And so somehow you build a sort 214 00:10:41,960 --> 00:10:44,680 of virtual Kabura, which I, I, I value very much. 215 00:10:45,800 --> 00:10:48,320 And last I would say, you know, I, I refer people to the podcast 216 00:10:48,320 --> 00:10:50,480 on a regular basis. No later than last Friday, 217 00:10:50,480 --> 00:10:53,920 someone came to my home to get advice on, on his professional 218 00:10:53,920 --> 00:10:55,560 life. And he was saying, no, I'm about 219 00:10:55,600 --> 00:10:57,560 Chuva. But really the only thing I care 220 00:10:57,560 --> 00:11:00,000 about is Torah. The business world is Tafel. 221 00:11:00,000 --> 00:11:02,720 I really, I said, look, you know, you need to find the 222 00:11:02,720 --> 00:11:03,960 balance. And by the way, here's a good 223 00:11:03,960 --> 00:11:05,920 podcast. And Rob, David Leipin has 224 00:11:05,920 --> 00:11:08,720 certain things to tell you. And you know, that's, that's, 225 00:11:08,760 --> 00:11:10,480 that's a virtual Habura and it's wonderful. 226 00:11:10,960 --> 00:11:13,560 Well, if yeah, it's, it's very special and I, I really 227 00:11:13,560 --> 00:11:16,120 appreciate the opportunity that I've had to, to put this 228 00:11:16,120 --> 00:11:17,480 together and to gather these voices. 229 00:11:17,480 --> 00:11:20,200 And I think that the community aspect is a is a really special 230 00:11:20,200 --> 00:11:21,600 one. It's one we actually discussed 231 00:11:21,600 --> 00:11:24,480 before and I hope to develop more in the future. 232 00:11:24,600 --> 00:11:26,640 With regards to the idea of balancing. 233 00:11:26,640 --> 00:11:29,440 I'm wondering through your experiences and all of the high 234 00:11:29,440 --> 00:11:32,360 level business people that you have spoken to, do you have any 235 00:11:32,360 --> 00:11:35,560 particular insights or examples even from like non Jews who 236 00:11:36,240 --> 00:11:39,360 because sometimes right the, the the more powerful you get, the 237 00:11:39,360 --> 00:11:41,400 more busy you get, the less balance you have, which is a bit 238 00:11:41,400 --> 00:11:43,680 ironic. So maybe any examples or 239 00:11:43,680 --> 00:11:45,360 insights you have from your experiences that you want to 240 00:11:45,360 --> 00:11:47,440 share with our listeners? So I don't know if I want to 241 00:11:47,440 --> 00:11:49,560 name names, but I would say that the two or three things that 242 00:11:49,560 --> 00:11:53,080 strike me the most in people who are really balanced are people 243 00:11:53,080 --> 00:11:56,960 who are very disciplined. And particularly over the years, 244 00:11:57,000 --> 00:12:01,880 I've realized how your calendar is where things happen and how 245 00:12:01,880 --> 00:12:05,800 people who master their calendar in many ways master their life. 246 00:12:05,800 --> 00:12:08,480 And specifically what I'm referring to is and, and the 247 00:12:08,480 --> 00:12:10,920 practice I've adopted in the in in recent years, but I wish I 248 00:12:10,920 --> 00:12:15,720 would have discovered the, you know, even earlier was how, you 249 00:12:15,720 --> 00:12:18,160 know, taking a blank calendar at the beginning of the year and 250 00:12:18,160 --> 00:12:22,000 starting to put in there all the important things for you, Madam. 251 00:12:22,000 --> 00:12:24,080 So, you know, you want to do sports, great. 252 00:12:24,080 --> 00:12:26,280 You know, just set two or three slots to do sports a week. 253 00:12:26,280 --> 00:12:29,920 You want to be learning morning evenings, Cavutot put it there. 254 00:12:30,360 --> 00:12:32,840 You want to go on a walk with your wife to make sure you, you 255 00:12:32,840 --> 00:12:35,520 know, you can talk outside of the house and, and stay 256 00:12:35,520 --> 00:12:37,840 connected. Great final slot in there. 257 00:12:38,160 --> 00:12:40,600 Once you find the slots for the rest, don't worry. 258 00:12:40,640 --> 00:12:43,200 You know, business meetings will fill the rest with ease. 259 00:12:43,640 --> 00:12:45,760 But if you start with business meetings, we all know that 260 00:12:45,760 --> 00:12:47,960 there's no space at the end left for the important things. 261 00:12:48,760 --> 00:12:51,840 And I think the people that I, I admire the most are people who 262 00:12:51,840 --> 00:12:55,600 have this sort of personal discipline to, you know, first 263 00:12:55,600 --> 00:12:58,760 work on the things that that, that they care about and then 264 00:12:58,760 --> 00:13:01,040 let the rest expand and fill the space. 265 00:13:01,640 --> 00:13:04,200 That's beautiful. So the last thing I want to ask 266 00:13:04,200 --> 00:13:07,040 you about is the community of Bali Chuva. 267 00:13:07,040 --> 00:13:11,360 It was quite surprising to me how enthusiastic and how much 268 00:13:11,480 --> 00:13:15,120 traction this podcast has gotten among Bali Chuva specifically. 269 00:13:15,360 --> 00:13:17,360 And it was not saying that I was expecting. 270 00:13:17,360 --> 00:13:20,160 I'm very happy that people who who come from a bit of a 271 00:13:20,160 --> 00:13:22,320 different background than maybe me and Mike Hevra are, are 272 00:13:22,320 --> 00:13:24,800 enjoying the podcast and growing from it, and I've interacted 273 00:13:24,800 --> 00:13:27,200 with a lot of them. Do you have any quick takes as 274 00:13:27,200 --> 00:13:29,680 to why that might be? So why specifically Bali Chuva 275 00:13:29,800 --> 00:13:31,600 have sort of latched onto this resource? 276 00:13:31,600 --> 00:13:34,720 Maybe more than I was expecting. Well, first of all, we should 277 00:13:34,720 --> 00:13:39,400 realise that the word Bale chuva covers a broad range of people. 278 00:13:39,400 --> 00:13:42,400 You know, the, the, the, the, the rush of our local back in 279 00:13:42,400 --> 00:13:45,720 rush, something I'm, I'm quite involved with, you know, you 280 00:13:45,720 --> 00:13:49,360 know, you know me Chuva at age 15 today, he knows most of 281 00:13:49,360 --> 00:13:51,360 Shah's mahara have cooked by heart. 282 00:13:51,360 --> 00:13:53,960 So, you know, there's Bale chuva and Bale chuva. 283 00:13:53,960 --> 00:13:57,440 But I would say at my own little level, I can relate to that. 284 00:13:57,440 --> 00:14:01,520 And I understand, I think, look, I think most Bale Chuva by 285 00:14:01,640 --> 00:14:03,760 nearly by definition, when you sort of deep in the business 286 00:14:03,760 --> 00:14:05,840 world, because they don't have the yeshiva training that would 287 00:14:05,840 --> 00:14:10,160 push them to be, to be able to be people who are only involved 288 00:14:10,160 --> 00:14:12,160 in in Torah. And so by definition, when they 289 00:14:12,160 --> 00:14:15,680 think Torah is important, they struggle number one, with 290 00:14:15,680 --> 00:14:18,080 managing their, the, the balance, as we discussed, but 291 00:14:18,080 --> 00:14:20,280 also with the amount of learning they need to catch up with, you 292 00:14:20,280 --> 00:14:23,920 know, the, the Rambam in the beginning of Ilhot Tamut Torah 293 00:14:23,920 --> 00:14:29,280 talks about, you know, Michel Olimdo Aviv Hayab lamented that 294 00:14:29,280 --> 00:14:32,040 small he needs to learn on his own because he did not absorb 295 00:14:32,040 --> 00:14:35,600 that people who grew up in the religious world underestimate 296 00:14:35,600 --> 00:14:40,040 how much you learn up to age 15/18/20 when you get out of the 297 00:14:40,040 --> 00:14:42,760 Shiva and how much catch up there is to do for someone who 298 00:14:42,760 --> 00:14:46,320 didn't absorb that. So by definition, by the Shiva 299 00:14:46,320 --> 00:14:50,360 are faced with that challenge and are struggling for, for, for 300 00:14:50,360 --> 00:14:52,800 responses. They also haven't built, you 301 00:14:52,800 --> 00:14:55,400 know, the learning habits, the havoc taught, the learning base 302 00:14:55,400 --> 00:14:58,240 that that gives them and the ability to catch up in an hour 303 00:14:58,240 --> 00:15:01,040 and to do so much at the same time. 304 00:15:01,040 --> 00:15:04,120 I always reminded, you know, Rabbi Efrain Buchwald, who was 305 00:15:04,120 --> 00:15:07,480 one of The Pioneers in Kirov in New York, the first one to 306 00:15:07,480 --> 00:15:10,400 advertise in the subway for tort classes and and so on. 307 00:15:10,920 --> 00:15:13,720 He always had this argument that Bailey Chuva brings a certain 308 00:15:13,720 --> 00:15:20,480 energy and passion to Torah that the more jaded, you know, from 309 00:15:20,480 --> 00:15:24,760 from birth didn't have somehow that Chuva is, is, is constantly 310 00:15:24,760 --> 00:15:27,640 trying to catch up with himself, to learn from others to to 311 00:15:27,640 --> 00:15:30,760 improve himself. And so I think the passion makes 312 00:15:30,760 --> 00:15:33,560 them more eager to learn from others, connect with the 313 00:15:33,560 --> 00:15:36,280 podcast. And yeah. 314 00:15:36,440 --> 00:15:38,160 And finally, you know, when you're not in, when you're in 315 00:15:38,160 --> 00:15:40,440 the business world, you have more time to, you know, more 316 00:15:40,440 --> 00:15:44,360 that time that, that you can feel with, with, with podcasts, 317 00:15:44,360 --> 00:15:46,280 you know, when travelling or whatever. 318 00:15:46,280 --> 00:15:48,680 So that's, that's also again, not much more, more team to what 319 00:15:48,680 --> 00:15:52,080 you're doing. Interesting. 320 00:15:52,400 --> 00:15:55,160 I, I, I think those all resonated with me a lot. 321 00:15:55,160 --> 00:15:57,080 One of the things that I was thinking about that I wanted to 322 00:15:57,080 --> 00:15:59,640 share with you and, and hear your response to was the fact 323 00:15:59,640 --> 00:16:04,440 that often times by Chuba probably have a much more open 324 00:16:04,440 --> 00:16:09,520 mind to being curious and to asking questions and to maybe 325 00:16:09,520 --> 00:16:11,680 questioning some of the norms or habits. 326 00:16:11,840 --> 00:16:15,200 So if I sort of grew up in the track and I sort of feel myself 327 00:16:15,200 --> 00:16:19,120 as going along with the flow. So then, if the flow means, you 328 00:16:19,120 --> 00:16:21,880 know, learning X amount or Y amount or going to this career 329 00:16:21,880 --> 00:16:23,560 or that career. So okay, I'll, I'll go with 330 00:16:23,560 --> 00:16:26,600 that, with that track. Whereas by true, and this 331 00:16:26,600 --> 00:16:28,360 resonates me a lot. You know, I, I ask a lot of 332 00:16:28,360 --> 00:16:30,280 questions. I, I think about things a lot. 333 00:16:30,400 --> 00:16:33,320 Maybe I overthink things, but what led me, one of the things 334 00:16:33,400 --> 00:16:35,960 me on this journey was my, my overthinking of things. 335 00:16:35,960 --> 00:16:39,240 And maybe by two, have a little more intellectual curiosity and 336 00:16:39,240 --> 00:16:42,560 openness to how we approach some of the routines and habits and 337 00:16:42,560 --> 00:16:44,800 structures around our Torah and business life. 338 00:16:44,880 --> 00:16:46,800 Does that resonate with you? No, I think that's very right. 339 00:16:46,800 --> 00:16:49,200 I look about Shuba, by definition, is a fish that swims 340 00:16:49,200 --> 00:16:51,600 against the current. And so that makes him much more 341 00:16:51,600 --> 00:16:55,240 sort of willing to challenge himself and constantly rethink 342 00:16:55,240 --> 00:16:56,960 things. You know, I, I remember, you 343 00:16:56,960 --> 00:16:59,280 know, 20 years ago I was dealing with these issues of Torah and 344 00:16:59,280 --> 00:17:01,720 science and trying to see ways of reconciling it. 345 00:17:02,280 --> 00:17:04,920 And somehow I'm still interested in the issue. 346 00:17:04,920 --> 00:17:07,640 Just on Shabbat, I read another book on the on the topic. 347 00:17:07,640 --> 00:17:10,040 I think you're, you're constantly revisiting the things 348 00:17:10,040 --> 00:17:12,760 that you started to think about at the beginning of your journey 349 00:17:13,160 --> 00:17:18,400 and to re challenge them. And again, having you know who 350 00:17:18,400 --> 00:17:21,760 are on the same journey and can can advise on the journey, you 351 00:17:21,760 --> 00:17:24,400 know, through the podcast or in real life is, is critical there. 352 00:17:27,800 --> 00:17:30,920 On that point, do you have any advice for people who are older 353 00:17:30,960 --> 00:17:35,600 and maybe feel like they don't have that sense of curiosity and 354 00:17:35,600 --> 00:17:37,640 openness to growth? I mean, obviously you can be 355 00:17:37,640 --> 00:17:39,960 very challenging someone who already has a wife and already 356 00:17:39,960 --> 00:17:42,720 has a kid and already has a reputation and they're already 357 00:17:42,720 --> 00:17:45,680 within a certain community. So having that openness and 358 00:17:45,680 --> 00:17:48,880 being able to really grow and have an open mind later in life 359 00:17:48,880 --> 00:17:51,360 can be a little harder. Bali Chuva obviously are forced 360 00:17:51,760 --> 00:17:54,840 to do something different. So do you have any advice from 361 00:17:54,840 --> 00:17:57,920 the Valley Chuba angle to someone who grew up from about 362 00:17:57,920 --> 00:17:59,760 being able to really, because, you know, Malabar Cliche and 363 00:17:59,760 --> 00:18:02,360 Meridian, we should always be trying to grow and learn and not 364 00:18:02,360 --> 00:18:04,560 be, I don't know, stuck in, in in our old ways. 365 00:18:04,720 --> 00:18:06,800 So what's your what's your? You have any advice on that? 366 00:18:06,800 --> 00:18:09,400 Finding motivation all along is difficult. 367 00:18:10,000 --> 00:18:11,800 I think there are, you know, there are two ways of learning, 368 00:18:11,800 --> 00:18:12,840 you know, the cute and the young. 369 00:18:12,840 --> 00:18:15,600 I think most Valley chubas start with the cute because they're 370 00:18:15,600 --> 00:18:19,120 trying to sort of catch up and and that provides satisfaction 371 00:18:19,120 --> 00:18:20,880 to to say, you know, I've covered the whole mission and 372 00:18:20,880 --> 00:18:23,920 understand there's no concept in just that I will meet and and 373 00:18:23,920 --> 00:18:25,880 not be at least somewhat familiar with one. 374 00:18:25,880 --> 00:18:30,040 Staying at the higher at the at the at the higher level is 375 00:18:30,040 --> 00:18:32,720 indeed a a deep source of of satisfaction. 376 00:18:33,240 --> 00:18:35,440 But then you've got the problem. OK, but now why do I do you 377 00:18:35,440 --> 00:18:36,640 know, there's so much to be learned. 378 00:18:36,640 --> 00:18:38,960 Why do I start and so on. And sometimes when you stay too 379 00:18:38,960 --> 00:18:42,680 superficial, I think that show me for all its wonders, you 380 00:18:42,680 --> 00:18:44,960 know, hurt, hurt hurt us a little bit as well. 381 00:18:46,520 --> 00:18:50,120 When you stay too superficial, you have always had that feeling 382 00:18:50,120 --> 00:18:53,000 of not knowing and, and and and having to catch up and so on. 383 00:18:53,200 --> 00:18:55,920 What I found for myself at least is if I can go, if I can take 384 00:18:55,920 --> 00:18:59,600 one area, one small area and go deep into it and feel that I 385 00:18:59,600 --> 00:19:02,720 really master it, at least at the practical alaric level that 386 00:19:02,720 --> 00:19:04,120 provides a deep source of satisfaction. 387 00:19:04,120 --> 00:19:06,040 And then you can say, OK, now let's pick another area and 388 00:19:06,040 --> 00:19:07,920 another area. I know that I spent a few years 389 00:19:07,920 --> 00:19:12,760 learning in Khod Basu Basu Khalav Taw of it Bayun to the 390 00:19:12,760 --> 00:19:15,960 level that, you know, when my wife has a question about, you 391 00:19:15,960 --> 00:19:19,880 know, the meat pan and the the basari, you know, spoon and you 392 00:19:19,880 --> 00:19:23,000 know, vice versa, our friends or my parents or my sisters and so 393 00:19:23,000 --> 00:19:24,960 on. I feel I can answer those 394 00:19:24,960 --> 00:19:28,200 questions with confidence. And when I go check myself with 395 00:19:28,200 --> 00:19:29,560 the rave, I see that I was right. 396 00:19:29,560 --> 00:19:32,960 You know, in 90% of the cases, sometimes a bit too much me as, 397 00:19:33,000 --> 00:19:34,320 as you would, you know, sometimes do. 398 00:19:34,560 --> 00:19:37,640 But they provide a sense of satisfaction Sipuk that, that, 399 00:19:37,640 --> 00:19:40,960 that, that gives motivation to go for another area and another 400 00:19:40,960 --> 00:19:42,800 area. I think one of the biggest, 401 00:19:43,200 --> 00:19:45,920 maybe to close there, one of the biggest insights in Torah 402 00:19:45,920 --> 00:19:49,960 learning is the power of regularity of how you know, 403 00:19:49,960 --> 00:19:53,480 learning even a certain area 15 minutes a day, you know, after 404 00:19:53,480 --> 00:19:56,840 six months, you've learned a significant amount of, of, of 405 00:19:56,840 --> 00:19:58,680 knowledge. And I find it like when I can 406 00:19:58,680 --> 00:20:01,600 focus myself on one area and really master it, after a while, 407 00:20:01,880 --> 00:20:06,440 I I, I just feel much more willing here to to embrace 408 00:20:06,440 --> 00:20:09,440 another one and another. One, well, I like that a lot and 409 00:20:09,440 --> 00:20:12,840 I also personally feel that often times when I, you know, 410 00:20:13,360 --> 00:20:16,120 sometimes I'll I'll get really into a sugya and you might 411 00:20:16,120 --> 00:20:18,720 think, OK, like you learned it so well or you wrote an article 412 00:20:18,720 --> 00:20:21,560 about it, but it's such a small sugya, but the Torah is so 413 00:20:21,560 --> 00:20:24,080 interconnected that you're going to end up finding something else 414 00:20:24,080 --> 00:20:26,600 related to that sugya and that passion is really contagious 415 00:20:26,600 --> 00:20:29,600 within the realms of Torah. So I've, I've also found that to 416 00:20:29,600 --> 00:20:31,640 be true as well. So I appreciate you mentioning 417 00:20:31,640 --> 00:20:32,960 that. Michael, thank you so much for 418 00:20:32,960 --> 00:20:35,040 taking the time and we really appreciate your, you know, 419 00:20:35,040 --> 00:20:37,160 feedback on the podcast. And I will thank you publicly 420 00:20:37,400 --> 00:20:39,960 for giving a lot of feedback, including not good feedback, 421 00:20:39,960 --> 00:20:42,040 which is I appreciate a lot. It shows that you're really care 422 00:20:42,040 --> 00:20:43,720 and you were willing to call me out on things that you think 423 00:20:43,720 --> 00:20:45,080 could be better and could be improved. 424 00:20:45,080 --> 00:20:47,160 So I appreciate that a lot and thank you for joining us today, 425 00:20:47,160 --> 00:20:48,480 and we look forward to staying in touch.