I am sitting in my apartment in Ishvat Karambiavna.
I am surrounded by boxes, bubble wrap and lots of garbage.
We're moving next week, and once this episode drops, I will no
longer be a member of the Kohl in Ishvat Karambiavna.
There are so many question marks about what life is going to be
like afterwards. I really hope that this podcast
will continue to grow and develop, and I'll be able to
make the time and space to invest as much energy as I can
because I really have enjoyed this journey so, so much.
But for the next two weeks, we're going to be doing
something a little bit different.
As the summer winds to a close, we're going to reflect back on
some of the very important conversations we've been having
on the Stark Team podcasts. It's really special.
To hear that the episodes that we've put out have really
spawned some very interesting conversations.
Some people reach out to me with great feedback.
Some people discuss it with their friends, their colleagues,
their families, on their Shabbos tables.
And that's been very inspiring and heart warming for me to
hear. And because I think this topic
is really about the conversation, it's really about
the journey, it's really about the challenge.
There are no easy answers, there are no quick fixes.
So I thought that it would be really cool to take some of
these conversations and put them on the air, record them for
everyone to hear and listen to. I firmly believe that these
follow up conversations are among the most important aspects
of Stark Tank and therefore I'm really excited to do this
two-part series. In today's episode, we will be
speaking with a listener who some of you may have heard of.
His name is Michael Bloch. He spent over 20 years at a
small company that you may have heard of called McKinsey, and it
might be cheesy to call him a McKenzie level Mensch, but
that's absolutely an accurate portrayal.
And we spoke about some of his reactions to the podcast,
especially his unique perspective as a Baal Chuva.
As always, I love to receive all feedback.
My e-mail is jakobwolf@gmail.com.
And a reminder that we have our quiet WhatsApp group.
The link is in the show notes, so you can go over there and
check that out. My name is Jakob Wolf and this
start. So when I started this podcast,
a lot of people reached out to me with different suggestions of
people who I should be speaking to.
And one of the names that came up a lot was the name Michael
Bloch. And I had heard a little bit of
Michael Bloch. I had heard about some of the
very, very impressive things he's done.
And I had really admired some of his work from afar.
And when I reached out to him, I was really honored and humbled
that he's actually a listener of the Stark Tank podcast.
So I'm happy to have a conversation with Michael
following up on some of these ideas and topics.
So, Michael, welcome to the show and thank you for joining us
today. My pleasure, Jakov, it's good to
see you again in person and, and, and and be on there for
once. So maybe tell us a little bit
about your background. You have a very interesting
story, a very interesting professional path, and also a
tour journey that goes alongside it.
So maybe you give us a little bit of that background to start
off. I'll give you the the personal
professional side and then go back to the sort of thorough
journey in parallel with the with with with the rest some I'm
from Switzerland originally. I grew up there, studied at the
local college business and technology, worked a bit in the
banking world and then left for the USI spent two years, one in
California in Berkeley, one in New York.
I was studying for a PhD was the early times of the business use
of the Internet. That's what I was studying.
But then I met my wife, came back to Europe, spend a few
months in the university trying to write up a PhD that I had
started, but then realized I enjoyed consulting, which I was
doing on the side much more than writing up the PhD.
So I left college, joined McKinsey, that was just building
a technology practice then, and spent 23 years at McKinsey, most
of them as a partner, a senior partner.
We spent seven years in in Switzerland and for five years I
led the technology practice in France and we made Dalia in
2010, literally 4014 years ago, 3 days from now.
And I stayed with McKinsey for 11 years here in Israel, serving
clients all around the world, mostly large companies, helping
them with business, with operations, transformation
strategy. But every year I also worked
with nonprofits. I realized quickly you could
help nonprofits with the same business toolkit.
So I worked with two or three nonprofits a year on their
strategy on the growth. And frankly, I felt these were
amazing projects that were highly impactful at A at a
different level than, you know, saving another few $100 million
for a bank. But for me, they, they, they
matter more. So about three years ago, I
decided to leave McKinsey, partly because I was tired and
and I wanted something new, partly because I really want to
spend more time with non profits.
I then looked for the next concept, and after many
discussions with many people, I realized that the people who
needed the most help were the philanthropic foundations that
had hundreds of millions, sometimes billions of dollars of
money to invest, to give here in Israel.
And I could help these people either grow the nonprofits they
were supporting or solve social issues that say you want to
increase the amount of computer science students in Israel.
You've got $20 million to do it. What's the best approach, the
best path? How do you get that done?
And last I discovered that there were a number of new
philanthropic funders that wanted to start giving in
Israel, either people from the high tech scene who had made,
you know, hundreds of millions or people from the US who went
new to Israel. And so I build a small team
around me, mostly former consultants, and together we've
done something like 30 projects and I love it now in parallel
with that. So I grew up in a non in a non
religious family in, in Switzerland when I was in the US
was the beginning of my, my chuva.
Frankly, I think it was the, the availability of Torah books that
started the journey. I had always been interested in
Torah, but there was nothing to learn from in Switzerland where
I grew up or in, in French. But suddenly in the US, you
know, I was faced with this world of Kirov, particularly in
New York, you know, Esha Torah rather by Bofal and the Lincoln
Square scene. There were so many opportunities
to learn and I took advantage of that.
And then over time, try to adapt reading here and there at some
point, maybe about 15 years ago also, you know, with my kids
growing up, I didn't mention we've got three kids from 22 now
to 13. I decided to be a bit more
systematic about my, my learning and starting going through, I
would say the, the, the, the major works of Torah in the
systematic way, starting with the, you know, all of Michnetto.
I'm quite systematic in my learning.
So then I went through Dafiomi. There are many people who
finished Dafiomi. I, I was joking to say that very
few finished Dafiomi in and out plane, which is what I did.
I, I learned mostly on my business trips and then, you
know, I did Havuto here and there.
And today I spend, you know, 10 to 20 hours a week learning a
little bit, depending on the, on the workload that a significant
amount of, of time and Hashem have been able to grow in, in
my, in my capabilities. You know, even though there's
there's, there's still so much to be done.
And how old were you when this journey started on the learning?
Oh, probably. You know, I was 20 when I
started making chuva gradually, but I would say it accelerated
since I came to Israel. Also because coming to Israel
forced me to learn Hebrew. That gave me access to a whole
new range of learning capabilities and and of course,
you know, the availability of Torah teachers here, you can
walk to the neighborhood shul and find that would be rather
name in in Europe. So a lot more opportunities to
learn from from everybody. And I've always felt that maybe
one of the really big challenges that someone in your place would
probably feel would be the the language, which is such a
barrier. Did you have any sort of Hebrew
background even in the non religious way from from your
childhood? No, in reality not, and it's
been a real challenge. It took me 3 years.
Well look, I was travelling every week, speaking French at
home and English with at work. But it took me 3 years of
intense effort to learn to speak Hebrew well to the level of
speaking with the CEO here in in Israel.
It took me a few more years to learn enough Hebrew to
understand Moschioim and to be able to read, say, Alaric works.
I'm not working on the Aramaic, which is, you know, another set
of challenge. And it's harder to speak Aramaic
with your friends. So, but I'm not systematically
going through, you know, list of common words and keywords and
trying to grow in, in, in, in, in Gamara learning on an
independent way. I, I, I've started to switch my
asphalt Gamara from the red one to the blue one, if you know
what I mean. And that's a challenge on it's
own, but it's also a, you know, satisfaction that, you know, you
grow up in your in your capabilities.
OK, so let's talk a little bit about Stark Tank.
What do you think for you has been so meaningful about the
discourse in general? Just very broadly, the idea of
having a podcast out, being a mentor in the workforce, where
in your life has that come in in the most, in the most important
way? Well, look, I think everybody,
and I think it's particularly true for for for about it to buy
and people who are sort of deep in the business world, but
everybody struggles with the balance of, you know, business
life and personal life. And in this case, business life,
personal life and Torah life or Torah learning.
And I think the podcast is the first one that sort of addresses
the issue heads on others. You know, you can you can find
content and you know, Ravi Asaman wrote some very
interesting books on the topic. Ravi Loplansky did the same.
But I think you and the podcast, you know, are the first ones to
sort of head on, address the challenge and bring different
perspectives, some more Torah based, some more business based
to the, to the, to the balancing challenge.
And I thought that was that was incredibly helpful.
I thought, you know, like every podcast, it's an, it's an
opportunity to hear from remarkable people.
But here it's remarkable people who've saw the challenge, which
I find most interesting and most, you know, personal.
And so in terms of getting inspiration, getting practical
advice, the podcast has been invaluable.
I think somehow you've also managed to, I would say, build a
small community. Interestingly, a lot of the
people you you had on the show and I was yesterday going
through the list are people I've, I've known personally,
I've met repeatedly. You know, people like Xavier
Heinitz, Mormonic, Ralf Pfeffer, Nohan Basserman, you know, your
father, Josh Wolf, Mark Lesnick, all, all are people who I, I
respect met with, work with in some, in some context.
You've brought many famous authors whose books I've read,
you know, give student Vava Shavais, Michael Eisenberg, Ralf
Opansky, Ralf David Lapin. So you feel like you're, you're
meeting your friends and your colleagues and, and your masters
and your teachers. And so somehow you build a sort
of virtual Kabura, which I, I, I value very much.
And last I would say, you know, I, I refer people to the podcast
on a regular basis. No later than last Friday,
someone came to my home to get advice on, on his professional
life. And he was saying, no, I'm about
Chuva. But really the only thing I care
about is Torah. The business world is Tafel.
I really, I said, look, you know, you need to find the
balance. And by the way, here's a good
podcast. And Rob, David Leipin has
certain things to tell you. And you know, that's, that's,
that's a virtual Habura and it's wonderful.
Well, if yeah, it's, it's very special and I, I really
appreciate the opportunity that I've had to, to put this
together and to gather these voices.
And I think that the community aspect is a is a really special
one. It's one we actually discussed
before and I hope to develop more in the future.
With regards to the idea of balancing.
I'm wondering through your experiences and all of the high
level business people that you have spoken to, do you have any
particular insights or examples even from like non Jews who
because sometimes right the, the the more powerful you get, the
more busy you get, the less balance you have, which is a bit
ironic. So maybe any examples or
insights you have from your experiences that you want to
share with our listeners? So I don't know if I want to
name names, but I would say that the two or three things that
strike me the most in people who are really balanced are people
who are very disciplined. And particularly over the years,
I've realized how your calendar is where things happen and how
people who master their calendar in many ways master their life.
And specifically what I'm referring to is and, and the
practice I've adopted in the in in recent years, but I wish I
would have discovered the, you know, even earlier was how, you
know, taking a blank calendar at the beginning of the year and
starting to put in there all the important things for you, Madam.
So, you know, you want to do sports, great.
You know, just set two or three slots to do sports a week.
You want to be learning morning evenings, Cavutot put it there.
You want to go on a walk with your wife to make sure you, you
know, you can talk outside of the house and, and stay
connected. Great final slot in there.
Once you find the slots for the rest, don't worry.
You know, business meetings will fill the rest with ease.
But if you start with business meetings, we all know that
there's no space at the end left for the important things.
And I think the people that I, I admire the most are people who
have this sort of personal discipline to, you know, first
work on the things that that, that they care about and then
let the rest expand and fill the space.
That's beautiful. So the last thing I want to ask
you about is the community of Bali Chuva.
It was quite surprising to me how enthusiastic and how much
traction this podcast has gotten among Bali Chuva specifically.
And it was not saying that I was expecting.
I'm very happy that people who who come from a bit of a
different background than maybe me and Mike Hevra are, are
enjoying the podcast and growing from it, and I've interacted
with a lot of them. Do you have any quick takes as
to why that might be? So why specifically Bali Chuva
have sort of latched onto this resource?
Maybe more than I was expecting. Well, first of all, we should
realise that the word Bale chuva covers a broad range of people.
You know, the, the, the, the, the rush of our local back in
rush, something I'm, I'm quite involved with, you know, you
know, you know me Chuva at age 15 today, he knows most of
Shah's mahara have cooked by heart.
So, you know, there's Bale chuva and Bale chuva.
But I would say at my own little level, I can relate to that.
And I understand, I think, look, I think most Bale Chuva by
nearly by definition, when you sort of deep in the business
world, because they don't have the yeshiva training that would
push them to be, to be able to be people who are only involved
in in Torah. And so by definition, when they
think Torah is important, they struggle number one, with
managing their, the, the balance, as we discussed, but
also with the amount of learning they need to catch up with, you
know, the, the Rambam in the beginning of Ilhot Tamut Torah
talks about, you know, Michel Olimdo Aviv Hayab lamented that
small he needs to learn on his own because he did not absorb
that people who grew up in the religious world underestimate
how much you learn up to age 15/18/20 when you get out of the
Shiva and how much catch up there is to do for someone who
didn't absorb that. So by definition, by the Shiva
are faced with that challenge and are struggling for, for, for
responses. They also haven't built, you
know, the learning habits, the havoc taught, the learning base
that that gives them and the ability to catch up in an hour
and to do so much at the same time.
I always reminded, you know, Rabbi Efrain Buchwald, who was
one of The Pioneers in Kirov in New York, the first one to
advertise in the subway for tort classes and and so on.
He always had this argument that Bailey Chuva brings a certain
energy and passion to Torah that the more jaded, you know, from
from birth didn't have somehow that Chuva is, is, is constantly
trying to catch up with himself, to learn from others to to
improve himself. And so I think the passion makes
them more eager to learn from others, connect with the
podcast. And yeah.
And finally, you know, when you're not in, when you're in
the business world, you have more time to, you know, more
that time that, that you can feel with, with, with podcasts,
you know, when travelling or whatever.
So that's, that's also again, not much more, more team to what
you're doing. Interesting.
I, I, I think those all resonated with me a lot.
One of the things that I was thinking about that I wanted to
share with you and, and hear your response to was the fact
that often times by Chuba probably have a much more open
mind to being curious and to asking questions and to maybe
questioning some of the norms or habits.
So if I sort of grew up in the track and I sort of feel myself
as going along with the flow. So then, if the flow means, you
know, learning X amount or Y amount or going to this career
or that career. So okay, I'll, I'll go with
that, with that track. Whereas by true, and this
resonates me a lot. You know, I, I ask a lot of
questions. I, I think about things a lot.
Maybe I overthink things, but what led me, one of the things
me on this journey was my, my overthinking of things.
And maybe by two, have a little more intellectual curiosity and
openness to how we approach some of the routines and habits and
structures around our Torah and business life.
Does that resonate with you? No, I think that's very right.
I look about Shuba, by definition, is a fish that swims
against the current. And so that makes him much more
sort of willing to challenge himself and constantly rethink
things. You know, I, I remember, you
know, 20 years ago I was dealing with these issues of Torah and
science and trying to see ways of reconciling it.
And somehow I'm still interested in the issue.
Just on Shabbat, I read another book on the on the topic.
I think you're, you're constantly revisiting the things
that you started to think about at the beginning of your journey
and to re challenge them. And again, having you know who
are on the same journey and can can advise on the journey, you
know, through the podcast or in real life is, is critical there.
On that point, do you have any advice for people who are older
and maybe feel like they don't have that sense of curiosity and
openness to growth? I mean, obviously you can be
very challenging someone who already has a wife and already
has a kid and already has a reputation and they're already
within a certain community. So having that openness and
being able to really grow and have an open mind later in life
can be a little harder. Bali Chuva obviously are forced
to do something different. So do you have any advice from
the Valley Chuba angle to someone who grew up from about
being able to really, because, you know, Malabar Cliche and
Meridian, we should always be trying to grow and learn and not
be, I don't know, stuck in, in in our old ways.
So what's your what's your? You have any advice on that?
Finding motivation all along is difficult.
I think there are, you know, there are two ways of learning,
you know, the cute and the young.
I think most Valley chubas start with the cute because they're
trying to sort of catch up and and that provides satisfaction
to to say, you know, I've covered the whole mission and
understand there's no concept in just that I will meet and and
not be at least somewhat familiar with one.
Staying at the higher at the at the at the higher level is
indeed a a deep source of of satisfaction.
But then you've got the problem. OK, but now why do I do you
know, there's so much to be learned.
Why do I start and so on. And sometimes when you stay too
superficial, I think that show me for all its wonders, you
know, hurt, hurt hurt us a little bit as well.
When you stay too superficial, you have always had that feeling
of not knowing and, and and and having to catch up and so on.
What I found for myself at least is if I can go, if I can take
one area, one small area and go deep into it and feel that I
really master it, at least at the practical alaric level that
provides a deep source of satisfaction.
And then you can say, OK, now let's pick another area and
another area. I know that I spent a few years
learning in Khod Basu Basu Khalav Taw of it Bayun to the
level that, you know, when my wife has a question about, you
know, the meat pan and the the basari, you know, spoon and you
know, vice versa, our friends or my parents or my sisters and so
on. I feel I can answer those
questions with confidence. And when I go check myself with
the rave, I see that I was right.
You know, in 90% of the cases, sometimes a bit too much me as,
as you would, you know, sometimes do.
But they provide a sense of satisfaction Sipuk that, that,
that, that gives motivation to go for another area and another
area. I think one of the biggest,
maybe to close there, one of the biggest insights in Torah
learning is the power of regularity of how you know,
learning even a certain area 15 minutes a day, you know, after
six months, you've learned a significant amount of, of, of
knowledge. And I find it like when I can
focus myself on one area and really master it, after a while,
I I, I just feel much more willing here to to embrace
another one and another. One, well, I like that a lot and
I also personally feel that often times when I, you know,
sometimes I'll I'll get really into a sugya and you might
think, OK, like you learned it so well or you wrote an article
about it, but it's such a small sugya, but the Torah is so
interconnected that you're going to end up finding something else
related to that sugya and that passion is really contagious
within the realms of Torah. So I've, I've also found that to
be true as well. So I appreciate you mentioning
that. Michael, thank you so much for
taking the time and we really appreciate your, you know,
feedback on the podcast. And I will thank you publicly
for giving a lot of feedback, including not good feedback,
which is I appreciate a lot. It shows that you're really care
and you were willing to call me out on things that you think
could be better and could be improved.
So I appreciate that a lot and thank you for joining us today,
and we look forward to staying in touch.