Stress is certainly extremely negative, but what people don't
necessarily know is that even physiologically there's all
kinds of impact. Talking about hypertension,
talking about digestion, irritable bowel syndrome, muscle
tightness, headaches, backaches, all kinds of things that come
from from carrying stress extendedly.
What is important is to the extent that people share my
experience of yeshiva being the OR a formative part time in
their life, what we call interjected, we carry it inside
of us, you know, in our core values and perspectives and all
that. And so if we've developed
associations of, you know, Torah with stress from yeshiva, and
that's still what comes up for us after work, I'm going going
to learn that has to be checked and and rethought with OCD
really needs to be a Rob involved who gives you clear
guidelines because OCD kicks in very strongly when there's room
for doubt. And when it comes to cleaning
for Peso, it's like the ultimate.
Sholam Alaikum and welcome to Start Tank.
Start Tank is a podcast about the challenges and opportunities
of being a mentor in the workforce.
This week we are joined by Doctor Dan Jacobson.
He is a psychologist. He's also a Muslim.
He also has written extensively a co-author of a book called
Flipping Out, which we'll discuss a little bit.
The author of a new pamphlet about Kedusha in today's
challenging and very exposed world titled Light in the
Darkness. We'll talk about that as well.
So Doctor Jan or Dan, as you like to be called, welcome and
thank you so much for joining us today.
Thank you, Yaako. Pleasure to be here.
And just very briefly before we start, please, to all the
listeners, if you hit the subscribe button, it really
helps us grow the show and reach to listeners.
We really appreciate that. Dan, why don't you start with a
little bit of personal background about yourself.
How do you choose to become a psychologist versus all other
professions? And then we'll transition to
some of the important psychological topics that we
want to talk about today. So I actually did not major in
psychology in in college. I majored in my first love of
Jewish history and thought I was going into academia.
The sort of story was I had a conversation with my father at a
certain point who was an academic and told me he thought
that it might be a good idea to put my people's people skills to
use. Anyway, he did a course in
college, several courses in college and psychology, which I
particularly enjoyed, one of which also began kind of the
Nexus of psychology and and Torah for me.
I wrote a paper about about Hazal and and dream theory.
From there it gal gel. I had I had interests in my own
year in Israel, years in Israel process and what happened to me
and eventually wrote my dissertation about that.
But that was kind of how I things unfolded in the direction
of psychology. Yeah.
And as you alluded to, you sort of created a bit of a niche,
among other things, in, you know, Benetora Benet yeshiva and
mental health. So you can tell us a little more
about some of the original experiences that you alluded to
that sort of led you on this journey.
And what was the specific focus of your research and your
dissertation that led to the book flipping out?
OK, yeah, look, my my own journey, I would teach you about
a Kotel was there for for two years and they without getting
into too much detail, I kind of half flipped out.
I have a term for it in the in the in the book.
So they kind of saw people who didn't really change so much.
I saw people who who changed more notably than than I did and
was always interested in in that and what went on inside of me
and why I changed the way I did. So I was always very
interesting. I also feel for a lot of people,
there's some period in their life that's kind of the the
period that was most mashma Ooty for them, most meaningful for
them, time that they have their best friends from whether it's
high school or college or yeshiva.
For me, yeshiva was really that that time and I took it with me
into into Graduate School. When I was thinking about my
dissertation, I consulted with an advisor about writing on the
topic of the year in Israel. This is professor by the name of
Nancy Boyd Franklin, who's a family therapist and, and taught
the multicultural course there. She's African American and I
wrote all about my experiences in yeshiva and she was very
intrigued and gave me all good feedback about it.
When I told her I was thinking about writing my dissertation on
this, she said, she said to me that it sounds like you want to
write your dissertation about yourself and that's not usually
a very good idea because usually those dissertations never get
completed. But I think you're reasonably
worked through about this stuff. So I think it'll be OK.
And then that's kind of how I mean it's always been a school
fun. It fascinates me and it Eric
Erickson talks about this period is the period of identity
formation. It's kind of when we are in that
phase of no longer just being part of our family and really
figuring out who it is that we are and that always talk to me
very deep. Right.
So I do want to, you know, put a pin on that idea of identity
formation, the year and yeshiva, how it affects us long term.
We're going to get back to that in a little bit.
But before that, I, you know, I want to start this conversation
framing it and really giving the the bulk of the time to talk
about stress and stress in our about Hashem or other forms of
pressure anxiety. Maybe we'll get into some of the
terms. So maybe it has a background to
tell us a little bit about, you know, what is stress?
Is it always a negative thing? Is it can have positive
application as well? And then in a moment we'll apply
it to our religious lives. Yeah.
So look, I think colloquially stress and you throw in a few
different terms and stress and anxiety are often used
interchangeably. I think to some degree even
psychologists do that. And sometimes I even do that
working with my working with my clients.
But the stress and anxiety are not the same thing.
I mean, there are many different versions of anxiety.
If you open up the psychology, psychiatry, the DSM, you'll that
you see many, many flavors of anxiety disorders.
Stress. The American Psychological
Association defines the difference between stress and
anxiety as being between something which is externally
driven and internally. In other words, stress is
something that has you have a stressor and so you are feeling
stressed. Something is causing you to feel
stressed and anxiety is more of an internal process.
I personally the way I think about it and the way I use it is
is more about present versus future.
Stress is something going on inside of me now and future, and
anxiety is generally more future oriented.
So stress is more of an internal experience of pressure and
anxiety is more of an internal experience of worry or dread.
But both of these are essentially from the same place,
which is it's about the nervous system, what's called the
sympathetic nervous system, being in a state of arousal,
what people like to call a fight or flight.
And so when that's turned on, a person is experiencing whether
it's stress or anxiety or whatever flavors of anxiety
that's no, that's, that's how I generally conceptualize.
So it's very interesting because know when it comes to our Torah
and our mitzvos, and if a person is in a situation where they're
feeling that those obligations and those commitments are
creating negative emotions. So question number one, part A
is because I'll talk about this, You've done a lot of, you know,
Torah learning on these topics. So I'm curious what the Torah
storm has to say on that dynamic.
And, you know, Part B is going back something you just, you
know, distinguish between whether there's a stressor
coming from the outside versus something that's within me.
So I think it's a very important distinction here, right?
Is the Torah something and coming and causing me various
forms of, of negative emotions? Or is the Torah perfect and my
insecurities and my, you know, issues and challenges are, are
turning that into something unhealthy.
So I'm wondering if you could sort of start to break down this
again for us? So I will do that, although I
realized I didn't add to the second part of your previous
question and it's actually important as as alluded to this
question. So let me one of the part of
what you asked was, is it negative or does it have any
positive component to it? And that's actually a really
critical question. Stress is certainly extremely
negative, meaning people just know that it's unpleasant, which
potentially means it is negative potentially.
But what people don't necessarily know is that even
physiologically, there's all kinds of impact of short term
and even more so long term. Talking about hypertension,
talking about digestion, irritable bowel syndrome, muscle
tightness, headaches, backaches, all kinds of things that come
from from carrying stress extendedly.
Clearly those are those are bad. Those are bad things.
At the same time, both when it comes to stress and anxiety,
sometimes people like to think of these things as the enemy, as
something, you know, horrible and dangerous and bad.
And I think here it's really critical.
Basically, I suppose I'll talk about everything having a having
a purpose. So there's there's a need for
pressure in the world. You know, there's a
psychiatrist, Doctor Eitan Levov, who has a parenting
system with the website people can look up to call.
It's called a Yucca and I think it's in Hebrew, but he basically
formulates that traditionally was more paternalistic quote UN
quote, meaning that vis A vis a children, there were demands.
We had expectations of what people were supposed to do and
kids were supposed to do. And that there's been a shift
which was welcomed to a more maternalistic place and more
nurturing place, but that the pendulum has swung too far in
many ways. You could talk about that later.
And in any case, there's a need for a balance of these two
things going to the yeshiva world, which Stark Tank is
about. So there's there's two places
that come to mind. I won't speak about current
yeshivas, but back from my day in yeshiva, there are two places
that had an interesting phenomenon, people familiar with
Gush and people familiar with Nevaeh and Telstone.
So Nevaeh and the day had a Roshi, Shiva and a mushgia who
is fondly known as the Mosh. And they, from my recollection
from cousin and friend there, they called them mommy and
daddy. And people have similarly
described Lufenstein Ravamitale at Ghosh as sort of a mommy and
daddy. And so without without, when
there's stress there, it's because there's expectations.
If a person's feeling zero stress and yeshiva feeling, you
know, just chill the whole time, then they're probably not
shooting very high in terms of expectations of themselves.
And on the other hand, if they're feeling intense feelings
of stress, even moderate, moderate high, then you know,
something is something is off in the in, in where the pendulum is
so to Kazal that you you asked about.
So Kazal, Kazal don't give us really, you know, or, you know,
essays on on topics. We have Ma Marie Cazal scattered
through different places and we kind of, you know, collect them
and people collect them in different ways, which give, you
know, more focus to this or to that.
Certainly there's plenty in Cazal, which is about which is
about expectations and demands that being Moser nefesh for
things. And certainly the whole mosers
farm are full of Ma Marie Cazal. There are about controlling
ourselves, controlling our urges and these they're all things
that have a certain element of pressure at their core.
Meaning if I'm, if I'm in a battle with the yater, then
there's, there's stress there, there's, there's tension.
And so clearly that concept exists in Fazal prominently, but
there also are certainly many things in Fazal that talk about
the need to be aware of overstress.
And the, the Kumar Brahos says that there are a whole bunch of
lists and then Zion, I think a bunch of lists of different
things and says there are three things that are mahiv Dato
shaladam, 3 things that are meshiv Dato shaladam, which I
think more or less correspond to the things that are meshiv Dato
shaladam that kind of take the stress down.
Things that are Mahiv Dato that kind of proactively put a person
in a state of calm, which is kind of the opposite of stress.
And it's said positively, this is something which is our
desirable for a person to be in a good state.
Why? Because Commish Barfield wants
us to feel good and be happy to go though and because these are
things that enable us to do things and to accomplish things
in a in a productive way. And my mentor, many of our
mentors, Doctor David Palkovitz often like to quote the Gemara
and Yuma and hey that on the positive conditionally, you'd
better think about dog. I believe he's just gonna Ruby
AMI or vasi with daga with anxiety.
One should either talk it out with somebody or being a CF dot
from it, but has all there's a difference of opinion or
different approaches as to what is helpful.
But the clear message of both Michele and the and the Gemara
is that we want a person to be able to lower anxiety when the
anxiety is feeling. So certainly there are sources
and there are others and maybe we need a booklet about that
too, about anxiety and for those, for those perspectives.
So. I didn't mean to give you more
homework for this conversation, but let's I was it was an
open-ended question and you give a very interesting answer.
I want to summarize what I understood with the three main
points just for myself and for the listeners.
So the first thing that we said is that stress is in general,
you know, negative, especially intense stress.
There are there are mental and physiological effects to stress.
We spoke about stress coming from expectations.
So there's a, you know, a paternal and a maternal
parenting systems and, and in our institutions that we go to
in our schools and the paternal represents the expectations and
that leads to sort of ambitions and that also includes with it
some stress. So there has to be somewhat of a
balance there. And also in Kazaa, we see the,
the balance and the need to have expectations to understand the
importance of pushing ourselves, giving of ourselves for Torah
and for, for serving a hard bar, who along with staying sane,
staying normal, staying happy. So that leads, I guess, to my
next question, which is that one of the things that I've come to
realize more and more is that, you know, when you're younger,
you think of Torah as this one sort of very closed box of
values and, and, and wisdom, but it's really Taurus Kaiam.
And as the world develops and changes, so the Torah is
understanding interpretations and where we emphasize that
there's sort of Torah that is more relevant and less relevant
to each generation. So how do you think about our
current moment with regards to stress, religious stress
specifically, What sort of Torah ideas do you find most important
to emphasize in today's current reality?
Yeah. I think your point is very well
taken and really, really important when it comes to
anxiety. Anxiety is on the rise.
The World of Health Organization has tracked over, you know,
decades trends in anxiety worldwide, both anxiety and
depression prevalence is is climbing the anxiety, anxiety
more so we live in a world which for reasons that I can discuss,
if desirable, where where anxiety seems to be seems to be
on the rise and seems to be more present than the past.
We always have questions with regard to whatever psychological
topics are being discussed of. Is this something that's
actually new and more prevalent than it was?
Or is this just that we're finally paying attention to
something that was there the whole time?
And the answer is usually yes, it's both.
But I certainly certainly seems to be a reasonable consensus in
the field that that anxiety is anxiety is the most prevalent
disorder and thing that we that we got in the office and that
it's on the rise. And therefore, for that reason,
there needs to be there needs to be attention to it and more
understanding of it than there was in the past.
I remember a certain certain Rosa Shiva who who has, who has
a good kind of no psychological training, but a good
psychological kind of antenna said to me soon after we made
all the, which was almost over 20 years ago.
And I was speaking with him and the he said, he said to me,
what's this? What's this anxiety thing?
Scary anxiety, scary. That time I didn't know he was
talking about. I knew what anxiety was.
But he was picking up in the guise that he was starting to
see coming into yeshiva that he was starting to see higher
levels of this anxiety thing just just just there.
And so, you know, in terms of yeshiva, you know, yeshivas need
to be aware of it. And so there's certainly a lot
more, a lot more understanding of it that you can't just, you
know, push, push, push, push guys.
You need to pause and see, see how guys are doing and check in.
Many yeshivas nowadays and seminaries have have a mental
health person on staff or at least someone they they consult
with and checking in on on guys to make sure that they're that
they're doing that they're doing OK at the same time.
And this is true both in yeshiva and parenting.
I know you have, you know, there's a an age range amongst
your viewers, viewers and listeners, but I know some are
parents already. And so both on the parenting
side and on the yeshiva and the educational side, the answer to
this a la Doctor Levov, is not for the pendulum to swing way
far in the other direction. That's probably part of what is
increased anxiety in the world, that people think that the
response to anxiety is to be nurturing, smothering,
helicoptering, or whatever, whatever it is just to make sure
that a kid never suffers from any anxiety.
But we actually build our strength and resilience by
encountering and learning how to handle some of that, some of
that stuff. So there's with most of these
things. Again, Doctor Palkowitz has one
of his books on parenting is called Balanced Parenting is a
Balance to strike. We're on the one hand, we do
have expectations and we do allow people to experience some
difficulty and to fall and get up and all those things at the
same time to be aware that that anxiety is, is in many ways one
of the main, main, main things that we need to be aware of
nowadays. And that's true.
That's true in the Shiva as well.
So it's interesting. I want to, you know, sort of
talk a little more about the, about the implications of this,
some of the yeshiva experiences for guys who are opposed to
Shiva balabhatim and stuff like that.
But you know, before we get to that, I'm wondering, you know,
you've been doing this for for a while now, bar Hashem helping a
lot of people, helping a lot of yeshivas and seminaries and, you
know, involve other things, projects as well.
So I'm wondering in the current reality, what sort of some of
the worst things that you've seen yeshiva and seminaries do
from a mental health perspective also, you know, going back 20
years. I'm interested to hear what, you
know, some of the things that maybe don't exist anymore about
Hashem, but some of those sort of the most psychologically
damaging phenomenon you've seen in yeshivas.
I just want to, I want to, sorry, I want to qualify a
question by saying that it's not meant to be a, you know, a
critique or, you know, slamming anybody.
I'm sure everyone in every yeshiva means well, but you
know, people are still learning and then no one's perfect.
So I just wanted to add that as a caveat that we're not coming
here to whatever, but I think there's an important.
Conversation to be had here about, you know, our mental
health and our religious lives that I want to sort of unpack.
So that's why I just want to clarify that.
Yeah, it's. Important and there's no
question. I think probably most people who
are care enough to be watching or listening had a good or at
least relatively good experience in yeshiva.
But certainly there are many people who have many rough parts
of their yeshiva or educational experience.
I at one point of clarification I see on one of them on
occasion, but I do not have my finger on the pulse of the
seminary the world of the one my wife's wife's psychologist.
And so I get I get things secondhand through through my
wife. But on the men's side look, I
think sometimes now, but it more so in the past.
Sometimes it was things top down from the achievement stubs.
It was just horizontal. It was just pressures in the
air. There's many of Shiva's where
the top is not necessarily pushing people intensely that
they, you know, need to learn more and more and more.
But there's just kind of a vibe in yeshiva that like, you know,
if you're serious, like that's that's what you do.
Like why are you, why are you, why are you sleeping Venosyne?
Like you want to have a cabrusa? You think that there's more
awareness of these things. I think I think the the two the
two arenas where these things come up primarily our vis A vis
for for men, for guys particularly is vis A vis
talmatara and vis A vis musser, meaning vis A vis talmat
talmatara, just whether it's from it was from above or
horizontal, just a sense of pressure of learning.
Maybe one of your listeners will say that they did it and it was
great for them. I know my time in the Shiva.
And I think these things are, as they go in and out, where people
come up with all kinds of sleep schedules of, you know, 24,
this, that, whatever, you know, sleep, it's always that guy.
Who tries the Rambam so? Well, right, OK, they're almost
said at least Ron said sleep at sleep 8 hours as remembrance all
said to us once it doesn't have to all be at one shot at night
sleep in a star end. And but, but but yes, but there
are there are people who try assorted assorted sleep sleep
patterns and that often comes from that of like I have to
crunch it in. I have to, you know, maximize to
the last to the last drip. People often, you know, end up
and suffering. I'm not for most people, not a
fan, not a fan of that, that kind of stuff and other bad
approaches that I've seen. I think, I think it was often
more a function of stuff slipping through the cracks of
just there being, you know, whether from the Torah side of
things or from the Musser, you know, kind of they're in stress,
but often more guilt side of side of things of people just
just feeling bad and just sitting with it and just
thinking somewhere inside that this is, I guess, just how it's
supposed to be, how it's supposed to be.
And I think a lot of people back in the day, you know, could make
it through the year in yeshiva as long as they were causing
trouble and they were doing what they were supposed to do,
feeling bad or feeling horrible and, and depending on the
yeshiva, not not be noticed. It could still happen nowadays,
but I think it's I think it's less so to most of your
listeners who I think are post yeshiva.
What is important is to the extent that people share my
experience of yeshiva being the OR a formative part time in
their life. So, so we carry formative times
in our life, what we call interjected, we carry it inside
of us, you know, in our core values and perspectives and all
that. And so if we've developed
associations of, you know, Torah with stress from yeshiva, and
that's still what comes up for us, you know, after work, you
know, I'm going to learn, you know, that has to be checked
and, and, and rethought. So I appreciate.
You circling back, which is exactly where I wanted to go
with the next question. You know, if someone is post
yeshiva and they do feel stress around their learning and and
maybe it does go back to the the the, you know, those experiences
in yeshiva, I guess, you know, cast question number of ways.
But but what? What would you suggest such a
person do So look to also circle back?
I'm, I'm not suggesting again that anxiety, stress, these
things are the categorical enemy.
And if someone, if someone comes back from work and kind of tired
and they flip open their phone or whatever, and, you know,
start scrolling through Facebook or Instagram or whatever it is
that they might, might or stop videos or just, you know,
sitting and, you know, doing nothing.
And they start to feel a little bit of guilt or a little bit of,
you know, of stress or whatever. And that kind of like gives them
a jolt to, to, to realize that they're 20 minutes late to the
Karusa or to their time they will convey with themselves to
learn. I think that's that's totally
fine. Same way someone's in college or
whatever and you know, they it's midnight the night before an
exam and then suddenly they start to get this creeping
feeling of, you know, distress inside and realize like I didn't
start studying yet for my exam tomorrow morning and anxiety is
not the enemy. It's just kind of waking you up.
It's what Marshall then I had the founder of DBDBT calls an
action urge that emotions give us a push to some bit somebody.
As long as it's in a small dose like that, it's fine.
But but to the extent that to the extent it's the prime thing,
the prime emotion that someone has with regard to their
learning or is, is is a negative, negative emotion.
The first thing is just to realize that that's going on,
'cause people get, so these are patterns.
These are patterns that people are just built in to stop that
and notice it and realize it and, and to try to find
especially for, for a Balabas who doesn't have a full day of
learning, but you want there to be Simcha and pleasure and, you
know, joy in connection with your with with your learning.
I don't know if it's the of the Apne Nazer where he says the
ultimate Torah Leshma is, is being, is having synthesis where
you just where you love it. You just have a feeling of, of,
of joy, pleasure when you're when you learn Torah.
I know for myself. I know for myself.
I went through a process where at some point I realized that,
you know, that I actually the achievers from Asafas are
actually not what I enjoy most. Even saying it now, I feel like
a little bit of a little bit of guilt, guilt or failure.
Al Basra's not my favorite Masafa like what's wrong with
me? But whatever, you know, it's
not, you know, I I enjoyed learning Chavez.
I mean, Chavez, that's that's not the end of the world
Broncos, you know, and so so for probably this self realization
and at a certain point, I gave myself permission, especially as
a ball of us, not someone to Shiva all day to learn the
things that I actually have pleasure from and look forward
to learning and having someone who can give you a little bit of
outside feedback about it. Also to remind you to assuage
guilt or pressures that come up and to remind you that it
doesn't need to be that way. It could be a Revi.
It could be I had the wisdom of I mean, I married a
psychologist, but she wasn't a psychologist then.
But but she did she she did straighten out, straighten out
my my, my guilty yeshiva head and help me come to a more
balanced place of my perspective on these things, my feelings
with relation to Torah Moser and.
And what about the stress between a you describe the
depicted as a classic scene, an important scene, Someone who's
tired, they're on their phone, they should be learning a little
bit of guilt there. It's spurs empty action.
That's an important way of thinking about it.
There's another scene, which is, you know, 2 good things pulling
on me. I have my wife, I have my
learning, I have kids, I have this.
Maybe I should clean up a little more on the House.
All these different good things that are pulling at us that can
also form its own stress. So anything else to add about
addressing those types of feelings, which I personally
feel quite often? Yeah.
Look, the first, the first is to be clear that you know what my
values are. And so you know, if sometimes
for yeshiva guys where yeshiva is all a number, once discussed
with my mom, who is also a psychologist, discussed with my
mom the Mishnah of of not being Marba Sikha and the Ishto Amru
Kavakoma, etcetera. So my mom was a little disturbed
by the Mishna and we were in discussion about it when I was
young. And then, but my mom, in her
wisdom, she she wasn't talking to me in general about talking
with the girls when I was single.
Or she said, you have to understand that, you know, when
you're married, like part of this cemented marriage is like
conversation. It's, it's not all just like
talkless about something, you know.
So sometimes coming out of yeshiva or yeshiva's kind of
mindset, there's a sense of, you know, things being bittle Taro,
things being like, I really I shouldn't have to.
And so I think the first step is just recognition from myself or
else speaking with a wise Rebbe or friend or whatever and
understanding that that Aluva Alu like, you know, this isn't a
this is a really important value and this is a really important
value. And so it's not that I'm being
pulled away, it's that I've competing values and that and
that's difficult. Secondly, is is Seder meaning
sometimes when we're single, when we're younger, etcetera, we
can just kind of like hop things here and stop things there and
it just kind of kind of works. As we become parents and life
becomes busy and time becomes time becomes less available.
Sometimes it's becomes more important to find ways to
organize my time so that I know when I'm doing, you know,
different things that you can't be rigid about it because it
doesn't work to, to say, I know Khalilah, but I, I know the kid
just fell down the stairs, but my traverse is waiting for me in
the basement. That doesn't, that doesn't work.
So he needs flexibility. But still with no flexibility,
having some kind of seder can and the other part of his
psychological work on being able to let go, meaning being able
to, to kind of mindfully engage in what it is that I'm doing and
let go. I remember who it was Roshiva,
this is Alma Meltzer. He's talking about Revadia
Levine. I think that's what it was at A
at a Shiva home and and said, you know, he was he said, you
know, when when you're there, feels like you're just there and
present. I'm like, you know, I'm paying a
visit and I'm getting ready to go, you know, to my go back to
learn or go back to. So there's an art and a capacity
of being able to learn to be mindfully present in whatever it
is that I'm currently doing. And to the extent that I #1
value it and give myself permission and allow myself to
then really be present where I am.
It can help to be less in a place of constant tension of,
you know, of, of, of thinking about the other thing while I'm
doing, while I'm doing this. And it goes both directions.
It goes direction of of I'm with my family, but you know, I
should be learning or whatever. But it comes to the other
direction of I'm learning, but, but I'm feeling like, you know,
I know I need to get home soon or whatever.
So that's about, you know, kind of personal psychological work
with a therapist or just with oneself on being able to allow
oneself to be more mindfully present and whatever it is that
I'm currently doing. Those are a couple ideas.
OK, I appreciate that. We have a few more topics that I
want to hit on with the limited time available.
You know, we are coming up on Pesach and it's a time, you
know, talking about stress, there's certainly no shortage of
stress involved in many homes around Pesach, whether it's the
cleaning, the preparation, say, or night itself.
There's a lot of demands, you know, paternal demands on
getting this clean and then getting this done by Katsos and
all those things. So any sort of practical tips
for those who want to experience their pre Pesach and their
Pesach in the state of serenity and joy as much as possible?
Some class ante, which I know is maybe surprising to even think
about with all the stress going on.
But some of the key tips that you've sort of developed or seen
to help people navigate this time and their mental health,
yeah. Look, first, Khazaat, you just
love them all, OK, Sharis need new and you know, when it comes
to cleaning and also, you know, also things that things at the
same time, but special when it comes to cleaning.
It's important also to #1 have a rug and know what is actually,
you know, what I should be doing in terms of cleaning.
And to the extent that a person has Matteo to anxiety or to OCD,
which we haven't discussed, but separate discussion that it's
important all the more important.
Sometimes people like that will gravitate to a more intense rug.
But it's really important for a person with some of those Matteo
to have a rug who really understands psychology and can
address things for that particular person, but to know
what the obligations are and what the obligations are not.
This also comes up in couples issues in terms of, you know, it
can be the husband too, but more often the wife who wants to do
massive spring cleaning and the like.
So to know that it's not obligatory is important.
On the other hand, for the husband, you know, if you know
that that that's what your wife needs to do, even though it's
not halacha. There's also an issue of
acceptance and not being in a three decade fight about, you
know, whether we do spray cleaning or not, if it's going
to end up happening anyway, of being able to move past it and
accept and then try to figure out how we balance that within
and maybe start the process early or whatever it is.
And the and some of these things we get into OCD and with OCD
really needs to be a Rob involved who gives you clear
guidelines because OCD kicks in very strongly when there is room
for doubt. And when it comes to cleaning
for Pesach, I mean, that's like that's like, you know, that's
like the ultimate and to slim junior rug.
We'll give you very clear guidelines.
I worked with guys with OCD surrounding Nikitos, you know,
cleaning themselves in the bathroom, you know, especially
before Tefilla or where it's Lahab deal.
You know, putting on filling and have had rebuttin who've given
them sock, you know, in the bathroom.
Pardon me for the graphicness, but you wipe, you wipe for
maximum 2 minutes and and you're out of there not 15 minutes at 2
minutes and you're out of there chilling.
You know, you adjust your chilling for for 10 seconds, it
hit the right spot, you're good, you move, you move on.
Some people need that degree of direction when it comes to, to
cleaning of how much time they can actually devote to it and
then and then move on. But above all of this, I, I
think it's really about I once heard there's a psychologist
from Usuali and Dr. Al Khannan Adler who's spoken to Veganiel
and he spoke about you're speaking to people mostly my
age, my generation, and, and describing the difference that
my generation was a generation of halachic rebellion against
their parents. That is to say that, you know,
we know better because, you know, we observe halacha better
than the, you know, we, the 50 year olds better than than the
80 year olds did that the other generations rebellion in Israel.
I think maybe in America to some degree most of Israel is one of
is 1 of spirituality meaning in Israel especially you know in
the Telomee world of Cork etcetera, there's plenty of and
Breslow, plenty of Hasidis that has come into into our world.
Even in America you have the Kurdish phenomenon etcetera.
And so there's a sense and there's an understanding that
Kiyo mitzvos is also about meaning and connection and
passion. And so I think it might have
been the towards Nemo talked about the difference between
Rakhine and then at sea of at the sea of Rakhine was then we
caught on the Shilin and the sea of was King Majesty at at the
Seder. I leaned a little bit in the
latter direction, but you know, I I think that giving oneself
time to dedicate oneself before Pesach, the nachat not not not
not Eric Pesach, but the nachat to preparing for one seder.
Yeah, somehow cause Pesach. But as much of things that I
want to talk about at the Seder this to parents within reason of
what is going to work for your kids.
But if you're not at your Seder then with your cover Rusa in the
weeks leading up to it and on or whatever.
But to really connect to the spirit of the day and what it
means and to the extent that one is not 90% of ones learning,
focusing on on halacha, it's more likely that your mind is
going to be in a place where you can move beyond that.
And we also have to say that we go to the same thing, which, you
know, in terms of the issue of Sheeran and people being Lahood.
So first of all, to tap into, you know, whether it's casitas
or just, you know, even lipfish, lipfish cabanas are nice
thoughts about, you know, the meaning, the meaning of Mata
etcetera. Before I lean left and not just,
you know, just thinking about how many bites I'm going to
finish this Mata and you know, and the likes.
Those are some things that I think could be helpful, amazing
and I. Think, you know, it's a holiday
also have questions so that some of the big questions they have
nowadays for, for me, you know, if I don't have 4 good ones, but
at least two, you know, number one is why the lechem only is so
expensive and #2 is why the holiday of freedom feels so
enslaving and so difficult. So I appreciate you getting
some, some perspective on that question as well.
And, and hopefully everyone should have a, a hot cut or
smack. We do have one more, you know,
question that I we have to talk about all the time.
You know, we didn't episode show of him as a time where people
talk about can you show Ashmere Sinai and the summers coming up
in a few months, we'll hopefully do an episode there as well.
It's really a constant struggle, a constant issue that we face as
men in the 21st century of pornography.
All those things and that you've thought about a lot.
You recently come out with a Javert, a Contra, say, a
notebook, a pamphlet, which I've gone through is very, very
impressive. You know, that doesn't need
mascara, but I really enjoyed it.
It's called Light in the darkness and we'll put a link in
the shows. Everyone can go there right now
and download it and and and grow from it and enjoy it.
So maybe just for the listeners, maybe give a little bit of a
brief overview of what you felt was missing in the discourse
around this topic, which you know, is a topic.
People are way more aware of it bar Hashem.
And now it's not necessarily a hush hush, I don't think as
anymore. But what were we trying to
contribute to this discourse with this pamphlet that you
wrote about about Kedusha? So.
Thank you for making room. I know the podcast today is not
about that. So I'm glad you made a little
bit of room for it. Because look, one of the things
that I realized I learned this from mentor of mine, Doctor
Roman Blumenthal way back is that psychologists have he's a
he's a person psychologist, therapist also did a lot in the
community, built sort of important things.
One of the special opportunities that a psychologist that
therapists have is you get windows into people's worlds and
you have a sense of what's going on in the community in a way
that just, you know, walking around being in shul like you
don't you don't have any way of knowing what's actually going
on, what kind of things are going on.
There are less being directly talked about.
And so sitting over the last decades and my beginning of my
practice, you know, more or less coincided with the beginnings of
Internet and that that smartphones and.
You know, just, I see it, I work with young men so in particular,
so I've just seen the amount of struggle and suffering that that
people have and each person who brings it up brings it up.
You know, I, I, people don't bring it up in the intake.
I, I ask about these things directly, but when people bring
it out, they'll say it with kind of a little hesitant, usually a
little embarrassed. Well, yeah, I, you know, and the
vibe is like, what's wrong with me?
And you're probably going to think I'm disgusting.
And, you know, and I have to break the news to the person
that I have this conversation with, you know, with basically
almost every new male client that I, that I work with.
Like this is I said, you're very you're unique and very important
to me, but the things you describing are not unique in the
slightest. And so you know it.
It just became so apparent to me that so many people are
struggling with these things and for better and for worse.
Show of them, which in its core had nothing to do with Kedusha
issues, but show them over time historically developed into a
period of time to work on Shamiro Shenai and Shamiro
Sabris, which essentially is great like any other mitzvah to
try to be on the dark take about something.
So there's a period of time set aside to that.
The problem is the the fallout. And so there are there's
writings out there and there's pamphlets etcetera that, you
know, encouraging people to work on during showroom on these
things. But but and there are assorted
there are sort of things that I found over the years written
that touched on guidance and psychological components of, of
people suffering regarding this etcetera.
But I didn't find one the concentrated source that I
thought dealt from a psychological perspective with
what people need to know and think about and understand in
order to both work on trying to get to a better place with their
Shmurata. And I am a Shmurata breed and at
the same time to be in a psychologically healthy place
and not, not, not killing themselves about it, not
struggling, not falling into depression, not sitting in
addiction. So that's the purpose.
And my hope is right now it's just digital happy for people to
send it far and wide for it to help whoever can help.
And my e-mail address is in there waiting for collecting
whatever feedback people have about things to change or things
that are missing there. And then after I get sufficient
feedback, I'll, I'll possibly print hard copy, hard copy of it
as well. Also hoping for those of us in
Israel hoping to translate it into Hebrew for for our young
men over here as well. And I guess one follow up
question on that, you know, it talks about married men.
So I'm, you know, my very bad bots understanding is that I'm
assuming that some of the struggles are less when you have
a, you know, a mutter outlet for for the strongest and most
passionate desires. You know, on the other hand, the
stakes are that much higher. Even, you know, what might be
considered as you about her. You know, a small issue could
become a much bigger issue or much more touchy issue when
there's obviously the faithfulness and the
relationship with a spouse in mind.
So you know, big adult, what do you see are sort of the main
things that the married men should keep keep in mind with
regards to this topic. That's a good question.
I talked about it in the in the booklet and people should, if
they're interested in your question, they should read there
because I don't want to talk for a long time, but our regular has
look, everything you said is correct.
It's less of an issue, but it's not a it's not a non issue.
Look for for people who came into marriage, you know,
addicted or semi addicted and have continued to struggle with
it. They need to get help for for
people who are not in that category, but from time to time
have, you know, what they call a Nephila.
Hopefully they've talked about this with their wife in the
past, maybe even before marriage that, you know, they have a
certain level of struggle, struggle with this.
Women nowadays need to also be in the know.
I talked about this metabolism as well, which is that, you
know, women can't be totally ignorant about the fact that
this kind of stuff goes on with guys just to understand what
it's what it's about South in a in a best case, in a good case.
On the one hand, a a wife doesn't need to know details
about everything. You know, if once a year a guy
slips, it's a mixed bag going to do V Dewey to 1's to 1's wife,
because to some degree your wife might just prefer not to know
another hand. If a person has had this
struggle in the past and their and their wife knows, but you
know, it seems better, but they're struggling with it
again, etcetera. You can't get into a deep hole
of extendedly hiding a real struggle that you're having from
your wife. There has to be discussion about
it. It's not good generally
speaking, when the wife is the policeman.
So they will have their wife set up as you know on the account to
the filter or whatever. Like it's not a great dynamic
having wife be the policeman. These are things to good
communication can address, like when it gets complicated, it
needs couples work to to help people get through get get
through it. And to the extent that it, this
is not what it's all about. It's about emotional stuff,
etcetera. But to the extent that there's
an element of it which has to do with with with sexual
frustration, that's about communication with one's spouse
and one's intimacy should be in a place where both people have
satisfaction and sholem biases in a in a good place.
So there's a lot more to say, but that's all right.
I'll ask. OK, I.
Appreciate the teacher and the and again, the the link will be
in the show. How much you definitely go and
check it out and, and hopefully you'll find it illuminating, as
illuminating as I did. So thank you for that.
Let's go to our rapid fire. 3 short questions, three hopefully
short answers. We have a few more winter
Shabbat here in Israel before the clock change.
So on the long Friday nights, what do you like to do at that
time? I I mean talk with family a
little bit after the meal. I do love Cazar on Chavez,
things that I learned during the week and I go to sleep early
because I wake up for the 630 Ninion on Chavez.
And is there a particular safer on Parsha Savoor that you find
to be the most compelling from a psychological perspective?
Great question. Look, I, I have a little bit of
a bifurcation in me that I, it took me a long time to connect
Torah and psychology on the learning level.
So I have a lot of spine that I, that I, that I love.
Is there anyone that I that I love, I love psychologically?
I don't know that there is serious one Rev psychologist
also. He writes into our tidbits and
he writes psychological stuff, which I find good.
Some of her Sacks's writings I think have have psychological
depths up to them and. Finally, if you were forced to
quit your psychological practice, find some new job in
new industry, maybe saying Eugene you're doing as a kid,
what would that be? I'd probably be a more.
Go do the two year more. Of course it's a tour guide in
Israel. I love, I said.
I love history. I love tooling around.
I probably probably go be a tour guide.
Amazing. I.
Think the last person and only other person to ever give that
answer to this question was Rabbi Shalam Rosner, someone who
you and I both know for many, many years.
So I'm glad that you guys have that in common.
Doctor Jan, thank you so much for joining us, for all these
great conversations here and, you know, being a source of
inspiration and guidance for me off the podcast as well.
So thank you for that and we look forward to staying in
touch. Thank you scroll on this podcast
and for all the good stuff you're doing and stay safe and
well and start to vote to everybody.
I mean. I mean.