1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:05,480 Stress is certainly extremely negative, but what people don't 2 00:00:05,480 --> 00:00:09,480 necessarily know is that even physiologically there's all 3 00:00:09,480 --> 00:00:12,200 kinds of impact. Talking about hypertension, 4 00:00:12,200 --> 00:00:15,840 talking about digestion, irritable bowel syndrome, muscle 5 00:00:15,840 --> 00:00:19,800 tightness, headaches, backaches, all kinds of things that come 6 00:00:19,800 --> 00:00:22,320 from from carrying stress extendedly. 7 00:00:22,320 --> 00:00:24,920 What is important is to the extent that people share my 8 00:00:24,920 --> 00:00:29,440 experience of yeshiva being the OR a formative part time in 9 00:00:29,440 --> 00:00:32,800 their life, what we call interjected, we carry it inside 10 00:00:32,800 --> 00:00:36,080 of us, you know, in our core values and perspectives and all 11 00:00:36,080 --> 00:00:39,400 that. And so if we've developed 12 00:00:39,400 --> 00:00:46,080 associations of, you know, Torah with stress from yeshiva, and 13 00:00:46,080 --> 00:00:48,640 that's still what comes up for us after work, I'm going going 14 00:00:48,640 --> 00:00:53,760 to learn that has to be checked and and rethought with OCD 15 00:00:53,840 --> 00:00:56,520 really needs to be a Rob involved who gives you clear 16 00:00:56,520 --> 00:01:01,080 guidelines because OCD kicks in very strongly when there's room 17 00:01:01,080 --> 00:01:03,480 for doubt. And when it comes to cleaning 18 00:01:03,480 --> 00:01:05,200 for Peso, it's like the ultimate. 19 00:01:15,280 --> 00:01:17,320 Sholam Alaikum and welcome to Start Tank. 20 00:01:17,600 --> 00:01:20,200 Start Tank is a podcast about the challenges and opportunities 21 00:01:20,280 --> 00:01:21,920 of being a mentor in the workforce. 22 00:01:22,160 --> 00:01:24,480 This week we are joined by Doctor Dan Jacobson. 23 00:01:24,640 --> 00:01:27,200 He is a psychologist. He's also a Muslim. 24 00:01:27,400 --> 00:01:31,440 He also has written extensively a co-author of a book called 25 00:01:31,440 --> 00:01:32,920 Flipping Out, which we'll discuss a little bit. 26 00:01:32,960 --> 00:01:35,440 The author of a new pamphlet about Kedusha in today's 27 00:01:35,600 --> 00:01:38,160 challenging and very exposed world titled Light in the 28 00:01:38,160 --> 00:01:39,400 Darkness. We'll talk about that as well. 29 00:01:39,520 --> 00:01:42,960 So Doctor Jan or Dan, as you like to be called, welcome and 30 00:01:42,960 --> 00:01:44,120 thank you so much for joining us today. 31 00:01:44,960 --> 00:01:46,680 Thank you, Yaako. Pleasure to be here. 32 00:01:47,760 --> 00:01:50,280 And just very briefly before we start, please, to all the 33 00:01:50,280 --> 00:01:52,200 listeners, if you hit the subscribe button, it really 34 00:01:52,200 --> 00:01:54,120 helps us grow the show and reach to listeners. 35 00:01:54,120 --> 00:01:56,680 We really appreciate that. Dan, why don't you start with a 36 00:01:56,680 --> 00:01:58,440 little bit of personal background about yourself. 37 00:01:58,760 --> 00:02:01,080 How do you choose to become a psychologist versus all other 38 00:02:01,080 --> 00:02:03,160 professions? And then we'll transition to 39 00:02:03,160 --> 00:02:05,680 some of the important psychological topics that we 40 00:02:05,680 --> 00:02:09,600 want to talk about today. So I actually did not major in 41 00:02:09,600 --> 00:02:15,520 psychology in in college. I majored in my first love of 42 00:02:15,520 --> 00:02:17,840 Jewish history and thought I was going into academia. 43 00:02:17,880 --> 00:02:20,640 The sort of story was I had a conversation with my father at a 44 00:02:20,640 --> 00:02:24,280 certain point who was an academic and told me he thought 45 00:02:24,280 --> 00:02:27,520 that it might be a good idea to put my people's people skills to 46 00:02:27,520 --> 00:02:30,640 use. Anyway, he did a course in 47 00:02:30,640 --> 00:02:34,800 college, several courses in college and psychology, which I 48 00:02:35,120 --> 00:02:38,480 particularly enjoyed, one of which also began kind of the 49 00:02:38,480 --> 00:02:42,200 Nexus of psychology and and Torah for me. 50 00:02:42,280 --> 00:02:47,040 I wrote a paper about about Hazal and and dream theory. 51 00:02:47,640 --> 00:02:54,120 From there it gal gel. I had I had interests in my own 52 00:02:54,520 --> 00:02:58,120 year in Israel, years in Israel process and what happened to me 53 00:02:58,120 --> 00:03:02,200 and eventually wrote my dissertation about that. 54 00:03:02,280 --> 00:03:06,160 But that was kind of how I things unfolded in the direction 55 00:03:06,160 --> 00:03:08,280 of psychology. Yeah. 56 00:03:08,280 --> 00:03:10,800 And as you alluded to, you sort of created a bit of a niche, 57 00:03:10,840 --> 00:03:13,760 among other things, in, you know, Benetora Benet yeshiva and 58 00:03:13,760 --> 00:03:15,160 mental health. So you can tell us a little more 59 00:03:15,160 --> 00:03:17,280 about some of the original experiences that you alluded to 60 00:03:17,280 --> 00:03:18,720 that sort of led you on this journey. 61 00:03:18,880 --> 00:03:20,840 And what was the specific focus of your research and your 62 00:03:20,840 --> 00:03:22,720 dissertation that led to the book flipping out? 63 00:03:22,880 --> 00:03:26,840 OK, yeah, look, my my own journey, I would teach you about 64 00:03:26,840 --> 00:03:31,440 a Kotel was there for for two years and they without getting 65 00:03:31,440 --> 00:03:33,640 into too much detail, I kind of half flipped out. 66 00:03:34,000 --> 00:03:36,920 I have a term for it in the in the in the book. 67 00:03:36,920 --> 00:03:41,760 So they kind of saw people who didn't really change so much. 68 00:03:41,760 --> 00:03:48,760 I saw people who who changed more notably than than I did and 69 00:03:49,040 --> 00:03:53,440 was always interested in in that and what went on inside of me 70 00:03:53,440 --> 00:03:58,520 and why I changed the way I did. So I was always very 71 00:03:58,520 --> 00:04:01,000 interesting. I also feel for a lot of people, 72 00:04:01,000 --> 00:04:04,160 there's some period in their life that's kind of the the 73 00:04:04,160 --> 00:04:07,600 period that was most mashma Ooty for them, most meaningful for 74 00:04:07,600 --> 00:04:10,680 them, time that they have their best friends from whether it's 75 00:04:10,680 --> 00:04:12,800 high school or college or yeshiva. 76 00:04:13,080 --> 00:04:16,360 For me, yeshiva was really that that time and I took it with me 77 00:04:16,360 --> 00:04:19,079 into into Graduate School. When I was thinking about my 78 00:04:19,079 --> 00:04:22,720 dissertation, I consulted with an advisor about writing on the 79 00:04:22,720 --> 00:04:27,600 topic of the year in Israel. This is professor by the name of 80 00:04:27,600 --> 00:04:31,960 Nancy Boyd Franklin, who's a family therapist and, and taught 81 00:04:32,040 --> 00:04:35,480 the multicultural course there. She's African American and I 82 00:04:35,480 --> 00:04:38,720 wrote all about my experiences in yeshiva and she was very 83 00:04:38,720 --> 00:04:40,800 intrigued and gave me all good feedback about it. 84 00:04:41,400 --> 00:04:44,440 When I told her I was thinking about writing my dissertation on 85 00:04:44,440 --> 00:04:48,560 this, she said, she said to me that it sounds like you want to 86 00:04:48,560 --> 00:04:51,440 write your dissertation about yourself and that's not usually 87 00:04:51,440 --> 00:04:54,840 a very good idea because usually those dissertations never get 88 00:04:54,840 --> 00:04:57,400 completed. But I think you're reasonably 89 00:04:57,400 --> 00:05:00,600 worked through about this stuff. So I think it'll be OK. 90 00:05:01,440 --> 00:05:05,000 And then that's kind of how I mean it's always been a school 91 00:05:05,000 --> 00:05:07,000 fun. It fascinates me and it Eric 92 00:05:07,000 --> 00:05:10,520 Erickson talks about this period is the period of identity 93 00:05:10,520 --> 00:05:13,120 formation. It's kind of when we are in that 94 00:05:13,120 --> 00:05:16,240 phase of no longer just being part of our family and really 95 00:05:16,240 --> 00:05:20,400 figuring out who it is that we are and that always talk to me 96 00:05:20,400 --> 00:05:21,200 very deep. Right. 97 00:05:21,200 --> 00:05:24,760 So I do want to, you know, put a pin on that idea of identity 98 00:05:24,760 --> 00:05:27,080 formation, the year and yeshiva, how it affects us long term. 99 00:05:27,080 --> 00:05:28,480 We're going to get back to that in a little bit. 100 00:05:28,680 --> 00:05:30,760 But before that, I, you know, I want to start this conversation 101 00:05:30,760 --> 00:05:33,640 framing it and really giving the the bulk of the time to talk 102 00:05:33,640 --> 00:05:37,240 about stress and stress in our about Hashem or other forms of 103 00:05:37,240 --> 00:05:38,880 pressure anxiety. Maybe we'll get into some of the 104 00:05:38,880 --> 00:05:40,480 terms. So maybe it has a background to 105 00:05:40,480 --> 00:05:43,240 tell us a little bit about, you know, what is stress? 106 00:05:43,240 --> 00:05:45,680 Is it always a negative thing? Is it can have positive 107 00:05:45,680 --> 00:05:47,520 application as well? And then in a moment we'll apply 108 00:05:47,520 --> 00:05:49,160 it to our religious lives. Yeah. 109 00:05:49,480 --> 00:05:54,400 So look, I think colloquially stress and you throw in a few 110 00:05:54,400 --> 00:05:57,160 different terms and stress and anxiety are often used 111 00:05:57,360 --> 00:05:59,720 interchangeably. I think to some degree even 112 00:05:59,720 --> 00:06:02,440 psychologists do that. And sometimes I even do that 113 00:06:02,720 --> 00:06:04,480 working with my working with my clients. 114 00:06:04,520 --> 00:06:07,920 But the stress and anxiety are not the same thing. 115 00:06:08,000 --> 00:06:10,400 I mean, there are many different versions of anxiety. 116 00:06:10,400 --> 00:06:15,920 If you open up the psychology, psychiatry, the DSM, you'll that 117 00:06:15,920 --> 00:06:19,040 you see many, many flavors of anxiety disorders. 118 00:06:19,040 --> 00:06:21,120 Stress. The American Psychological 119 00:06:21,120 --> 00:06:24,960 Association defines the difference between stress and 120 00:06:24,960 --> 00:06:29,120 anxiety as being between something which is externally 121 00:06:29,160 --> 00:06:31,840 driven and internally. In other words, stress is 122 00:06:32,080 --> 00:06:35,440 something that has you have a stressor and so you are feeling 123 00:06:35,440 --> 00:06:37,320 stressed. Something is causing you to feel 124 00:06:37,320 --> 00:06:41,880 stressed and anxiety is more of an internal process. 125 00:06:43,000 --> 00:06:46,720 I personally the way I think about it and the way I use it is 126 00:06:46,720 --> 00:06:51,480 is more about present versus future. 127 00:06:51,480 --> 00:06:59,000 Stress is something going on inside of me now and future, and 128 00:06:59,040 --> 00:07:03,160 anxiety is generally more future oriented. 129 00:07:03,160 --> 00:07:06,440 So stress is more of an internal experience of pressure and 130 00:07:06,440 --> 00:07:10,320 anxiety is more of an internal experience of worry or dread. 131 00:07:10,680 --> 00:07:14,360 But both of these are essentially from the same place, 132 00:07:14,360 --> 00:07:19,680 which is it's about the nervous system, what's called the 133 00:07:19,680 --> 00:07:23,320 sympathetic nervous system, being in a state of arousal, 134 00:07:23,320 --> 00:07:25,080 what people like to call a fight or flight. 135 00:07:25,120 --> 00:07:28,720 And so when that's turned on, a person is experiencing whether 136 00:07:28,720 --> 00:07:32,880 it's stress or anxiety or whatever flavors of anxiety 137 00:07:34,880 --> 00:07:38,560 that's no, that's, that's how I generally conceptualize. 138 00:07:39,640 --> 00:07:43,600 So it's very interesting because know when it comes to our Torah 139 00:07:43,600 --> 00:07:46,440 and our mitzvos, and if a person is in a situation where they're 140 00:07:46,440 --> 00:07:50,640 feeling that those obligations and those commitments are 141 00:07:50,640 --> 00:07:53,880 creating negative emotions. So question number one, part A 142 00:07:53,880 --> 00:07:56,800 is because I'll talk about this, You've done a lot of, you know, 143 00:07:56,800 --> 00:07:59,120 Torah learning on these topics. So I'm curious what the Torah 144 00:07:59,120 --> 00:08:00,560 storm has to say on that dynamic. 145 00:08:00,800 --> 00:08:03,280 And, you know, Part B is going back something you just, you 146 00:08:03,280 --> 00:08:05,680 know, distinguish between whether there's a stressor 147 00:08:05,680 --> 00:08:07,800 coming from the outside versus something that's within me. 148 00:08:07,800 --> 00:08:09,560 So I think it's a very important distinction here, right? 149 00:08:09,560 --> 00:08:13,840 Is the Torah something and coming and causing me various 150 00:08:13,840 --> 00:08:17,080 forms of, of negative emotions? Or is the Torah perfect and my 151 00:08:17,080 --> 00:08:20,480 insecurities and my, you know, issues and challenges are, are 152 00:08:20,480 --> 00:08:22,440 turning that into something unhealthy. 153 00:08:22,440 --> 00:08:24,400 So I'm wondering if you could sort of start to break down this 154 00:08:24,400 --> 00:08:27,160 again for us? So I will do that, although I 155 00:08:27,160 --> 00:08:29,760 realized I didn't add to the second part of your previous 156 00:08:29,760 --> 00:08:32,880 question and it's actually important as as alluded to this 157 00:08:32,880 --> 00:08:35,200 question. So let me one of the part of 158 00:08:35,200 --> 00:08:39,000 what you asked was, is it negative or does it have any 159 00:08:39,000 --> 00:08:42,200 positive component to it? And that's actually a really 160 00:08:42,200 --> 00:08:45,800 critical question. Stress is certainly extremely 161 00:08:45,800 --> 00:08:49,880 negative, meaning people just know that it's unpleasant, which 162 00:08:50,000 --> 00:08:52,120 potentially means it is negative potentially. 163 00:08:52,840 --> 00:08:56,160 But what people don't necessarily know is that even 164 00:08:56,160 --> 00:09:00,880 physiologically, there's all kinds of impact of short term 165 00:09:00,880 --> 00:09:04,640 and even more so long term. Talking about hypertension, 166 00:09:04,640 --> 00:09:08,280 talking about digestion, irritable bowel syndrome, muscle 167 00:09:08,280 --> 00:09:12,240 tightness, headaches, backaches, all kinds of things that come 168 00:09:12,240 --> 00:09:14,800 from from carrying stress extendedly. 169 00:09:14,800 --> 00:09:17,200 Clearly those are those are bad. Those are bad things. 170 00:09:18,680 --> 00:09:21,440 At the same time, both when it comes to stress and anxiety, 171 00:09:21,440 --> 00:09:25,440 sometimes people like to think of these things as the enemy, as 172 00:09:25,440 --> 00:09:28,120 something, you know, horrible and dangerous and bad. 173 00:09:30,080 --> 00:09:32,920 And I think here it's really critical. 174 00:09:32,960 --> 00:09:35,840 Basically, I suppose I'll talk about everything having a having 175 00:09:35,840 --> 00:09:39,280 a purpose. So there's there's a need for 176 00:09:39,280 --> 00:09:44,840 pressure in the world. You know, there's a 177 00:09:45,280 --> 00:09:48,600 psychiatrist, Doctor Eitan Levov, who has a parenting 178 00:09:48,600 --> 00:09:50,720 system with the website people can look up to call. 179 00:09:50,960 --> 00:09:54,320 It's called a Yucca and I think it's in Hebrew, but he basically 180 00:09:54,320 --> 00:10:01,400 formulates that traditionally was more paternalistic quote UN 181 00:10:01,400 --> 00:10:05,400 quote, meaning that vis A vis a children, there were demands. 182 00:10:05,440 --> 00:10:08,200 We had expectations of what people were supposed to do and 183 00:10:08,200 --> 00:10:11,200 kids were supposed to do. And that there's been a shift 184 00:10:11,200 --> 00:10:13,680 which was welcomed to a more maternalistic place and more 185 00:10:13,680 --> 00:10:18,280 nurturing place, but that the pendulum has swung too far in 186 00:10:18,280 --> 00:10:20,960 many ways. You could talk about that later. 187 00:10:20,960 --> 00:10:24,520 And in any case, there's a need for a balance of these two 188 00:10:24,520 --> 00:10:28,120 things going to the yeshiva world, which Stark Tank is 189 00:10:28,120 --> 00:10:31,400 about. So there's there's two places 190 00:10:31,400 --> 00:10:33,480 that come to mind. I won't speak about current 191 00:10:33,480 --> 00:10:37,520 yeshivas, but back from my day in yeshiva, there are two places 192 00:10:37,720 --> 00:10:40,680 that had an interesting phenomenon, people familiar with 193 00:10:40,680 --> 00:10:43,640 Gush and people familiar with Nevaeh and Telstone. 194 00:10:44,000 --> 00:10:49,240 So Nevaeh and the day had a Roshi, Shiva and a mushgia who 195 00:10:49,280 --> 00:10:52,920 is fondly known as the Mosh. And they, from my recollection 196 00:10:52,920 --> 00:10:56,600 from cousin and friend there, they called them mommy and 197 00:10:56,600 --> 00:10:58,400 daddy. And people have similarly 198 00:10:58,400 --> 00:11:02,400 described Lufenstein Ravamitale at Ghosh as sort of a mommy and 199 00:11:02,400 --> 00:11:06,720 daddy. And so without without, when 200 00:11:06,720 --> 00:11:09,560 there's stress there, it's because there's expectations. 201 00:11:10,640 --> 00:11:14,640 If a person's feeling zero stress and yeshiva feeling, you 202 00:11:14,640 --> 00:11:19,480 know, just chill the whole time, then they're probably not 203 00:11:19,840 --> 00:11:23,240 shooting very high in terms of expectations of themselves. 204 00:11:23,240 --> 00:11:26,680 And on the other hand, if they're feeling intense feelings 205 00:11:26,680 --> 00:11:30,200 of stress, even moderate, moderate high, then you know, 206 00:11:30,400 --> 00:11:34,120 something is something is off in the in, in where the pendulum is 207 00:11:34,120 --> 00:11:39,080 so to Kazal that you you asked about. 208 00:11:39,080 --> 00:11:45,160 So Kazal, Kazal don't give us really, you know, or, you know, 209 00:11:45,200 --> 00:11:49,000 essays on on topics. We have Ma Marie Cazal scattered 210 00:11:49,000 --> 00:11:51,560 through different places and we kind of, you know, collect them 211 00:11:51,560 --> 00:11:54,320 and people collect them in different ways, which give, you 212 00:11:54,320 --> 00:11:56,560 know, more focus to this or to that. 213 00:11:56,560 --> 00:12:01,920 Certainly there's plenty in Cazal, which is about which is 214 00:12:01,920 --> 00:12:06,080 about expectations and demands that being Moser nefesh for 215 00:12:06,080 --> 00:12:09,000 things. And certainly the whole mosers 216 00:12:09,000 --> 00:12:13,400 farm are full of Ma Marie Cazal. There are about controlling 217 00:12:13,400 --> 00:12:17,080 ourselves, controlling our urges and these they're all things 218 00:12:17,080 --> 00:12:20,680 that have a certain element of pressure at their core. 219 00:12:20,880 --> 00:12:25,000 Meaning if I'm, if I'm in a battle with the yater, then 220 00:12:25,080 --> 00:12:27,360 there's, there's stress there, there's, there's tension. 221 00:12:27,440 --> 00:12:32,280 And so clearly that concept exists in Fazal prominently, but 222 00:12:32,280 --> 00:12:36,080 there also are certainly many things in Fazal that talk about 223 00:12:36,080 --> 00:12:39,480 the need to be aware of overstress. 224 00:12:40,200 --> 00:12:47,440 And the, the Kumar Brahos says that there are a whole bunch of 225 00:12:47,440 --> 00:12:50,600 lists and then Zion, I think a bunch of lists of different 226 00:12:50,600 --> 00:12:54,160 things and says there are three things that are mahiv Dato 227 00:12:54,160 --> 00:12:58,440 shaladam, 3 things that are meshiv Dato shaladam, which I 228 00:12:58,440 --> 00:13:02,240 think more or less correspond to the things that are meshiv Dato 229 00:13:02,240 --> 00:13:04,240 shaladam that kind of take the stress down. 230 00:13:04,240 --> 00:13:07,440 Things that are Mahiv Dato that kind of proactively put a person 231 00:13:07,920 --> 00:13:13,600 in a state of calm, which is kind of the opposite of stress. 232 00:13:13,960 --> 00:13:17,600 And it's said positively, this is something which is our 233 00:13:17,600 --> 00:13:20,640 desirable for a person to be in a good state. 234 00:13:21,000 --> 00:13:23,320 Why? Because Commish Barfield wants 235 00:13:23,320 --> 00:13:26,200 us to feel good and be happy to go though and because these are 236 00:13:26,200 --> 00:13:28,640 things that enable us to do things and to accomplish things 237 00:13:29,120 --> 00:13:32,640 in a in a productive way. And my mentor, many of our 238 00:13:32,640 --> 00:13:35,920 mentors, Doctor David Palkovitz often like to quote the Gemara 239 00:13:35,920 --> 00:13:39,480 and Yuma and hey that on the positive conditionally, you'd 240 00:13:39,480 --> 00:13:42,080 better think about dog. I believe he's just gonna Ruby 241 00:13:42,080 --> 00:13:44,880 AMI or vasi with daga with anxiety. 242 00:13:44,880 --> 00:13:48,200 One should either talk it out with somebody or being a CF dot 243 00:13:48,200 --> 00:13:51,360 from it, but has all there's a difference of opinion or 244 00:13:51,360 --> 00:13:54,120 different approaches as to what is helpful. 245 00:13:54,160 --> 00:13:59,000 But the clear message of both Michele and the and the Gemara 246 00:13:59,000 --> 00:14:03,800 is that we want a person to be able to lower anxiety when the 247 00:14:03,800 --> 00:14:08,160 anxiety is feeling. So certainly there are sources 248 00:14:08,160 --> 00:14:11,720 and there are others and maybe we need a booklet about that 249 00:14:11,720 --> 00:14:17,120 too, about anxiety and for those, for those perspectives. 250 00:14:17,120 --> 00:14:18,200 So. I didn't mean to give you more 251 00:14:18,200 --> 00:14:19,880 homework for this conversation, but let's I was it was an 252 00:14:19,880 --> 00:14:21,720 open-ended question and you give a very interesting answer. 253 00:14:21,720 --> 00:14:23,520 I want to summarize what I understood with the three main 254 00:14:23,520 --> 00:14:25,040 points just for myself and for the listeners. 255 00:14:25,200 --> 00:14:27,600 So the first thing that we said is that stress is in general, 256 00:14:28,200 --> 00:14:29,640 you know, negative, especially intense stress. 257 00:14:29,640 --> 00:14:32,560 There are there are mental and physiological effects to stress. 258 00:14:32,760 --> 00:14:34,720 We spoke about stress coming from expectations. 259 00:14:34,720 --> 00:14:36,920 So there's a, you know, a paternal and a maternal 260 00:14:38,440 --> 00:14:41,000 parenting systems and, and in our institutions that we go to 261 00:14:41,000 --> 00:14:44,960 in our schools and the paternal represents the expectations and 262 00:14:44,960 --> 00:14:47,320 that leads to sort of ambitions and that also includes with it 263 00:14:47,320 --> 00:14:48,640 some stress. So there has to be somewhat of a 264 00:14:48,640 --> 00:14:51,760 balance there. And also in Kazaa, we see the, 265 00:14:51,760 --> 00:14:54,680 the balance and the need to have expectations to understand the 266 00:14:54,680 --> 00:14:58,040 importance of pushing ourselves, giving of ourselves for Torah 267 00:14:58,040 --> 00:15:01,080 and for, for serving a hard bar, who along with staying sane, 268 00:15:01,080 --> 00:15:03,480 staying normal, staying happy. So that leads, I guess, to my 269 00:15:03,480 --> 00:15:06,600 next question, which is that one of the things that I've come to 270 00:15:06,600 --> 00:15:09,000 realize more and more is that, you know, when you're younger, 271 00:15:09,000 --> 00:15:12,840 you think of Torah as this one sort of very closed box of 272 00:15:12,840 --> 00:15:16,280 values and, and, and wisdom, but it's really Taurus Kaiam. 273 00:15:16,280 --> 00:15:19,040 And as the world develops and changes, so the Torah is 274 00:15:19,040 --> 00:15:22,280 understanding interpretations and where we emphasize that 275 00:15:22,280 --> 00:15:25,040 there's sort of Torah that is more relevant and less relevant 276 00:15:25,040 --> 00:15:26,600 to each generation. So how do you think about our 277 00:15:26,600 --> 00:15:29,040 current moment with regards to stress, religious stress 278 00:15:29,040 --> 00:15:32,680 specifically, What sort of Torah ideas do you find most important 279 00:15:32,720 --> 00:15:34,520 to emphasize in today's current reality? 280 00:15:34,560 --> 00:15:37,720 Yeah. I think your point is very well 281 00:15:37,720 --> 00:15:40,960 taken and really, really important when it comes to 282 00:15:40,960 --> 00:15:44,200 anxiety. Anxiety is on the rise. 283 00:15:44,200 --> 00:15:47,120 The World of Health Organization has tracked over, you know, 284 00:15:47,600 --> 00:15:52,080 decades trends in anxiety worldwide, both anxiety and 285 00:15:52,080 --> 00:15:59,680 depression prevalence is is climbing the anxiety, anxiety 286 00:15:59,720 --> 00:16:04,080 more so we live in a world which for reasons that I can discuss, 287 00:16:04,080 --> 00:16:07,800 if desirable, where where anxiety seems to be seems to be 288 00:16:07,800 --> 00:16:10,960 on the rise and seems to be more present than the past. 289 00:16:10,960 --> 00:16:14,400 We always have questions with regard to whatever psychological 290 00:16:14,400 --> 00:16:17,560 topics are being discussed of. Is this something that's 291 00:16:17,560 --> 00:16:19,960 actually new and more prevalent than it was? 292 00:16:19,960 --> 00:16:22,200 Or is this just that we're finally paying attention to 293 00:16:22,200 --> 00:16:23,720 something that was there the whole time? 294 00:16:24,240 --> 00:16:27,240 And the answer is usually yes, it's both. 295 00:16:28,320 --> 00:16:33,720 But I certainly certainly seems to be a reasonable consensus in 296 00:16:33,720 --> 00:16:38,680 the field that that anxiety is anxiety is the most prevalent 297 00:16:39,560 --> 00:16:43,160 disorder and thing that we that we got in the office and that 298 00:16:43,200 --> 00:16:45,560 it's on the rise. And therefore, for that reason, 299 00:16:46,880 --> 00:16:51,640 there needs to be there needs to be attention to it and more 300 00:16:51,640 --> 00:16:53,520 understanding of it than there was in the past. 301 00:16:53,720 --> 00:16:58,800 I remember a certain certain Rosa Shiva who who has, who has 302 00:16:58,800 --> 00:17:01,560 a good kind of no psychological training, but a good 303 00:17:01,560 --> 00:17:04,560 psychological kind of antenna said to me soon after we made 304 00:17:04,560 --> 00:17:06,880 all the, which was almost over 20 years ago. 305 00:17:06,880 --> 00:17:10,800 And I was speaking with him and the he said, he said to me, 306 00:17:10,800 --> 00:17:13,599 what's this? What's this anxiety thing? 307 00:17:13,599 --> 00:17:17,040 Scary anxiety, scary. That time I didn't know he was 308 00:17:17,040 --> 00:17:19,119 talking about. I knew what anxiety was. 309 00:17:19,280 --> 00:17:22,040 But he was picking up in the guise that he was starting to 310 00:17:22,040 --> 00:17:25,240 see coming into yeshiva that he was starting to see higher 311 00:17:25,240 --> 00:17:28,720 levels of this anxiety thing just just just there. 312 00:17:28,720 --> 00:17:33,800 And so, you know, in terms of yeshiva, you know, yeshivas need 313 00:17:33,800 --> 00:17:37,040 to be aware of it. And so there's certainly a lot 314 00:17:37,040 --> 00:17:43,160 more, a lot more understanding of it that you can't just, you 315 00:17:43,160 --> 00:17:45,000 know, push, push, push, push guys. 316 00:17:45,000 --> 00:17:49,160 You need to pause and see, see how guys are doing and check in. 317 00:17:49,160 --> 00:17:54,240 Many yeshivas nowadays and seminaries have have a mental 318 00:17:54,240 --> 00:17:57,080 health person on staff or at least someone they they consult 319 00:17:57,080 --> 00:18:01,560 with and checking in on on guys to make sure that they're that 320 00:18:01,880 --> 00:18:05,080 they're doing that they're doing OK at the same time. 321 00:18:05,080 --> 00:18:08,280 And this is true both in yeshiva and parenting. 322 00:18:08,280 --> 00:18:12,000 I know you have, you know, there's a an age range amongst 323 00:18:12,000 --> 00:18:15,720 your viewers, viewers and listeners, but I know some are 324 00:18:15,720 --> 00:18:18,760 parents already. And so both on the parenting 325 00:18:18,760 --> 00:18:23,520 side and on the yeshiva and the educational side, the answer to 326 00:18:23,520 --> 00:18:28,960 this a la Doctor Levov, is not for the pendulum to swing way 327 00:18:28,960 --> 00:18:31,800 far in the other direction. That's probably part of what is 328 00:18:32,160 --> 00:18:38,000 increased anxiety in the world, that people think that the 329 00:18:38,000 --> 00:18:41,880 response to anxiety is to be nurturing, smothering, 330 00:18:41,880 --> 00:18:45,120 helicoptering, or whatever, whatever it is just to make sure 331 00:18:45,120 --> 00:18:47,560 that a kid never suffers from any anxiety. 332 00:18:47,560 --> 00:18:50,600 But we actually build our strength and resilience by 333 00:18:50,600 --> 00:18:53,400 encountering and learning how to handle some of that, some of 334 00:18:53,400 --> 00:18:56,240 that stuff. So there's with most of these 335 00:18:56,240 --> 00:18:58,240 things. Again, Doctor Palkowitz has one 336 00:18:58,240 --> 00:19:01,440 of his books on parenting is called Balanced Parenting is a 337 00:19:01,480 --> 00:19:03,800 Balance to strike. We're on the one hand, we do 338 00:19:03,800 --> 00:19:07,800 have expectations and we do allow people to experience some 339 00:19:08,160 --> 00:19:11,400 difficulty and to fall and get up and all those things at the 340 00:19:11,400 --> 00:19:17,640 same time to be aware that that anxiety is, is in many ways one 341 00:19:17,640 --> 00:19:22,600 of the main, main, main things that we need to be aware of 342 00:19:22,680 --> 00:19:24,200 nowadays. And that's true. 343 00:19:24,360 --> 00:19:25,640 That's true in the Shiva as well. 344 00:19:25,640 --> 00:19:27,160 So it's interesting. I want to, you know, sort of 345 00:19:27,160 --> 00:19:32,200 talk a little more about the, about the implications of this, 346 00:19:32,200 --> 00:19:34,800 some of the yeshiva experiences for guys who are opposed to 347 00:19:34,800 --> 00:19:36,880 Shiva balabhatim and stuff like that. 348 00:19:36,880 --> 00:19:38,680 But you know, before we get to that, I'm wondering, you know, 349 00:19:38,680 --> 00:19:41,160 you've been doing this for for a while now, bar Hashem helping a 350 00:19:41,160 --> 00:19:43,840 lot of people, helping a lot of yeshivas and seminaries and, you 351 00:19:43,880 --> 00:19:45,640 know, involve other things, projects as well. 352 00:19:45,760 --> 00:19:49,760 So I'm wondering in the current reality, what sort of some of 353 00:19:49,760 --> 00:19:52,040 the worst things that you've seen yeshiva and seminaries do 354 00:19:52,040 --> 00:19:55,120 from a mental health perspective also, you know, going back 20 355 00:19:55,120 --> 00:19:58,240 years. I'm interested to hear what, you 356 00:19:58,240 --> 00:19:59,920 know, some of the things that maybe don't exist anymore about 357 00:19:59,920 --> 00:20:01,960 Hashem, but some of those sort of the most psychologically 358 00:20:01,960 --> 00:20:04,000 damaging phenomenon you've seen in yeshivas. 359 00:20:04,720 --> 00:20:06,840 I just want to, I want to, sorry, I want to qualify a 360 00:20:06,840 --> 00:20:09,080 question by saying that it's not meant to be a, you know, a 361 00:20:09,080 --> 00:20:10,600 critique or, you know, slamming anybody. 362 00:20:10,600 --> 00:20:12,800 I'm sure everyone in every yeshiva means well, but you 363 00:20:12,800 --> 00:20:14,600 know, people are still learning and then no one's perfect. 364 00:20:14,640 --> 00:20:16,720 So I just wanted to add that as a caveat that we're not coming 365 00:20:16,720 --> 00:20:18,560 here to whatever, but I think there's an important. 366 00:20:18,920 --> 00:20:21,560 Conversation to be had here about, you know, our mental 367 00:20:21,560 --> 00:20:24,400 health and our religious lives that I want to sort of unpack. 368 00:20:24,400 --> 00:20:25,720 So that's why I just want to clarify that. 369 00:20:25,880 --> 00:20:28,080 Yeah, it's. Important and there's no 370 00:20:28,080 --> 00:20:30,640 question. I think probably most people who 371 00:20:30,640 --> 00:20:35,440 are care enough to be watching or listening had a good or at 372 00:20:35,440 --> 00:20:37,600 least relatively good experience in yeshiva. 373 00:20:37,600 --> 00:20:40,000 But certainly there are many people who have many rough parts 374 00:20:40,000 --> 00:20:41,960 of their yeshiva or educational experience. 375 00:20:43,040 --> 00:20:46,400 I at one point of clarification I see on one of them on 376 00:20:46,400 --> 00:20:49,440 occasion, but I do not have my finger on the pulse of the 377 00:20:49,440 --> 00:20:52,360 seminary the world of the one my wife's wife's psychologist. 378 00:20:52,360 --> 00:20:55,960 And so I get I get things secondhand through through my 379 00:20:56,000 --> 00:20:59,000 wife. But on the men's side look, I 380 00:20:59,080 --> 00:21:02,880 think sometimes now, but it more so in the past. 381 00:21:03,200 --> 00:21:07,000 Sometimes it was things top down from the achievement stubs. 382 00:21:07,000 --> 00:21:09,480 It was just horizontal. It was just pressures in the 383 00:21:09,480 --> 00:21:10,880 air. There's many of Shiva's where 384 00:21:10,880 --> 00:21:15,160 the top is not necessarily pushing people intensely that 385 00:21:15,160 --> 00:21:18,560 they, you know, need to learn more and more and more. 386 00:21:18,560 --> 00:21:20,880 But there's just kind of a vibe in yeshiva that like, you know, 387 00:21:20,880 --> 00:21:23,240 if you're serious, like that's that's what you do. 388 00:21:23,240 --> 00:21:27,040 Like why are you, why are you, why are you sleeping Venosyne? 389 00:21:27,040 --> 00:21:32,320 Like you want to have a cabrusa? You think that there's more 390 00:21:32,320 --> 00:21:35,000 awareness of these things. I think I think the the two the 391 00:21:35,000 --> 00:21:39,120 two arenas where these things come up primarily our vis A vis 392 00:21:39,400 --> 00:21:42,400 for for men, for guys particularly is vis A vis 393 00:21:42,400 --> 00:21:47,200 talmatara and vis A vis musser, meaning vis A vis talmat 394 00:21:47,280 --> 00:21:50,760 talmatara, just whether it's from it was from above or 395 00:21:50,760 --> 00:21:54,000 horizontal, just a sense of pressure of learning. 396 00:21:54,080 --> 00:21:56,400 Maybe one of your listeners will say that they did it and it was 397 00:21:56,400 --> 00:21:58,440 great for them. I know my time in the Shiva. 398 00:21:58,440 --> 00:22:01,680 And I think these things are, as they go in and out, where people 399 00:22:01,680 --> 00:22:04,680 come up with all kinds of sleep schedules of, you know, 24, 400 00:22:04,680 --> 00:22:06,920 this, that, whatever, you know, sleep, it's always that guy. 401 00:22:06,960 --> 00:22:11,160 Who tries the Rambam so? Well, right, OK, they're almost 402 00:22:11,160 --> 00:22:14,360 said at least Ron said sleep at sleep 8 hours as remembrance all 403 00:22:14,360 --> 00:22:17,240 said to us once it doesn't have to all be at one shot at night 404 00:22:17,440 --> 00:22:22,320 sleep in a star end. And but, but but yes, but there 405 00:22:22,320 --> 00:22:28,120 are there are people who try assorted assorted sleep sleep 406 00:22:28,120 --> 00:22:31,600 patterns and that often comes from that of like I have to 407 00:22:31,600 --> 00:22:34,320 crunch it in. I have to, you know, maximize to 408 00:22:34,320 --> 00:22:37,400 the last to the last drip. People often, you know, end up 409 00:22:37,720 --> 00:22:40,560 and suffering. I'm not for most people, not a 410 00:22:40,560 --> 00:22:48,800 fan, not a fan of that, that kind of stuff and other bad 411 00:22:48,800 --> 00:22:52,040 approaches that I've seen. I think, I think it was often 412 00:22:52,040 --> 00:22:55,920 more a function of stuff slipping through the cracks of 413 00:22:55,920 --> 00:22:59,360 just there being, you know, whether from the Torah side of 414 00:22:59,360 --> 00:23:03,160 things or from the Musser, you know, kind of they're in stress, 415 00:23:03,160 --> 00:23:08,640 but often more guilt side of side of things of people just 416 00:23:09,200 --> 00:23:12,280 just feeling bad and just sitting with it and just 417 00:23:12,280 --> 00:23:15,480 thinking somewhere inside that this is, I guess, just how it's 418 00:23:15,480 --> 00:23:17,000 supposed to be, how it's supposed to be. 419 00:23:17,120 --> 00:23:24,160 And I think a lot of people back in the day, you know, could make 420 00:23:24,160 --> 00:23:26,560 it through the year in yeshiva as long as they were causing 421 00:23:26,560 --> 00:23:29,640 trouble and they were doing what they were supposed to do, 422 00:23:29,880 --> 00:23:34,200 feeling bad or feeling horrible and, and depending on the 423 00:23:34,200 --> 00:23:38,440 yeshiva, not not be noticed. It could still happen nowadays, 424 00:23:38,480 --> 00:23:43,040 but I think it's I think it's less so to most of your 425 00:23:43,040 --> 00:23:44,720 listeners who I think are post yeshiva. 426 00:23:45,240 --> 00:23:47,840 What is important is to the extent that people share my 427 00:23:47,840 --> 00:23:52,360 experience of yeshiva being the OR a formative part time in 428 00:23:52,360 --> 00:23:56,080 their life. So, so we carry formative times 429 00:23:56,080 --> 00:24:00,440 in our life, what we call interjected, we carry it inside 430 00:24:00,440 --> 00:24:03,720 of us, you know, in our core values and perspectives and all 431 00:24:03,720 --> 00:24:07,040 that. And so if we've developed 432 00:24:07,040 --> 00:24:13,680 associations of, you know, Torah with stress from yeshiva, and 433 00:24:13,680 --> 00:24:16,200 that's still what comes up for us, you know, after work, you 434 00:24:16,200 --> 00:24:19,600 know, I'm going to learn, you know, that has to be checked 435 00:24:19,640 --> 00:24:22,400 and, and, and rethought. So I appreciate. 436 00:24:22,400 --> 00:24:24,160 You circling back, which is exactly where I wanted to go 437 00:24:24,160 --> 00:24:26,720 with the next question. You know, if someone is post 438 00:24:26,720 --> 00:24:29,760 yeshiva and they do feel stress around their learning and and 439 00:24:29,760 --> 00:24:33,360 maybe it does go back to the the the, you know, those experiences 440 00:24:33,360 --> 00:24:35,960 in yeshiva, I guess, you know, cast question number of ways. 441 00:24:35,960 --> 00:24:37,840 But but what? What would you suggest such a 442 00:24:37,840 --> 00:24:40,360 person do So look to also circle back? 443 00:24:41,440 --> 00:24:45,600 I'm, I'm not suggesting again that anxiety, stress, these 444 00:24:45,600 --> 00:24:47,480 things are the categorical enemy. 445 00:24:48,640 --> 00:24:53,800 And if someone, if someone comes back from work and kind of tired 446 00:24:53,800 --> 00:24:57,240 and they flip open their phone or whatever, and, you know, 447 00:24:57,520 --> 00:25:01,800 start scrolling through Facebook or Instagram or whatever it is 448 00:25:01,800 --> 00:25:05,960 that they might, might or stop videos or just, you know, 449 00:25:06,480 --> 00:25:09,600 sitting and, you know, doing nothing. 450 00:25:09,600 --> 00:25:12,120 And they start to feel a little bit of guilt or a little bit of, 451 00:25:12,240 --> 00:25:15,640 you know, of stress or whatever. And that kind of like gives them 452 00:25:15,640 --> 00:25:19,520 a jolt to, to, to realize that they're 20 minutes late to the 453 00:25:19,520 --> 00:25:22,360 Karusa or to their time they will convey with themselves to 454 00:25:22,360 --> 00:25:24,320 learn. I think that's that's totally 455 00:25:24,320 --> 00:25:26,720 fine. Same way someone's in college or 456 00:25:26,720 --> 00:25:30,040 whatever and you know, they it's midnight the night before an 457 00:25:30,040 --> 00:25:32,440 exam and then suddenly they start to get this creeping 458 00:25:32,440 --> 00:25:35,840 feeling of, you know, distress inside and realize like I didn't 459 00:25:35,840 --> 00:25:38,720 start studying yet for my exam tomorrow morning and anxiety is 460 00:25:38,720 --> 00:25:40,720 not the enemy. It's just kind of waking you up. 461 00:25:40,720 --> 00:25:44,720 It's what Marshall then I had the founder of DBDBT calls an 462 00:25:44,720 --> 00:25:48,880 action urge that emotions give us a push to some bit somebody. 463 00:25:49,440 --> 00:25:52,560 As long as it's in a small dose like that, it's fine. 464 00:25:53,840 --> 00:25:59,440 But but to the extent that to the extent it's the prime thing, 465 00:25:59,480 --> 00:26:01,960 the prime emotion that someone has with regard to their 466 00:26:01,960 --> 00:26:05,160 learning or is, is is a negative, negative emotion. 467 00:26:05,840 --> 00:26:08,160 The first thing is just to realize that that's going on, 468 00:26:08,240 --> 00:26:10,600 'cause people get, so these are patterns. 469 00:26:10,640 --> 00:26:14,800 These are patterns that people are just built in to stop that 470 00:26:14,840 --> 00:26:19,280 and notice it and realize it and, and to try to find 471 00:26:19,280 --> 00:26:23,040 especially for, for a Balabas who doesn't have a full day of 472 00:26:23,040 --> 00:26:27,160 learning, but you want there to be Simcha and pleasure and, you 473 00:26:27,160 --> 00:26:32,320 know, joy in connection with your with with your learning. 474 00:26:32,640 --> 00:26:35,800 I don't know if it's the of the Apne Nazer where he says the 475 00:26:35,800 --> 00:26:40,520 ultimate Torah Leshma is, is being, is having synthesis where 476 00:26:40,520 --> 00:26:43,320 you just where you love it. You just have a feeling of, of, 477 00:26:43,560 --> 00:26:46,440 of joy, pleasure when you're when you learn Torah. 478 00:26:47,400 --> 00:26:50,120 I know for myself. I know for myself. 479 00:26:50,120 --> 00:26:54,240 I went through a process where at some point I realized that, 480 00:26:54,240 --> 00:26:58,200 you know, that I actually the achievers from Asafas are 481 00:26:58,200 --> 00:27:01,200 actually not what I enjoy most. Even saying it now, I feel like 482 00:27:01,200 --> 00:27:04,000 a little bit of a little bit of guilt, guilt or failure. 483 00:27:05,040 --> 00:27:07,360 Al Basra's not my favorite Masafa like what's wrong with 484 00:27:07,360 --> 00:27:10,680 me? But whatever, you know, it's 485 00:27:10,680 --> 00:27:13,520 not, you know, I I enjoyed learning Chavez. 486 00:27:13,600 --> 00:27:15,960 I mean, Chavez, that's that's not the end of the world 487 00:27:15,960 --> 00:27:21,480 Broncos, you know, and so so for probably this self realization 488 00:27:21,880 --> 00:27:25,880 and at a certain point, I gave myself permission, especially as 489 00:27:25,880 --> 00:27:29,280 a ball of us, not someone to Shiva all day to learn the 490 00:27:29,280 --> 00:27:33,760 things that I actually have pleasure from and look forward 491 00:27:33,760 --> 00:27:37,840 to learning and having someone who can give you a little bit of 492 00:27:37,840 --> 00:27:42,520 outside feedback about it. Also to remind you to assuage 493 00:27:42,760 --> 00:27:45,280 guilt or pressures that come up and to remind you that it 494 00:27:45,280 --> 00:27:47,040 doesn't need to be that way. It could be a Revi. 495 00:27:47,440 --> 00:27:50,560 It could be I had the wisdom of I mean, I married a 496 00:27:50,840 --> 00:27:52,880 psychologist, but she wasn't a psychologist then. 497 00:27:52,880 --> 00:27:57,640 But but she did she she did straighten out, straighten out 498 00:27:57,640 --> 00:28:03,680 my my, my guilty yeshiva head and help me come to a more 499 00:28:03,680 --> 00:28:07,720 balanced place of my perspective on these things, my feelings 500 00:28:07,720 --> 00:28:10,120 with relation to Torah Moser and. 501 00:28:11,680 --> 00:28:14,760 And what about the stress between a you describe the 502 00:28:14,760 --> 00:28:18,080 depicted as a classic scene, an important scene, Someone who's 503 00:28:18,360 --> 00:28:20,360 tired, they're on their phone, they should be learning a little 504 00:28:20,360 --> 00:28:21,920 bit of guilt there. It's spurs empty action. 505 00:28:21,960 --> 00:28:23,880 That's an important way of thinking about it. 506 00:28:24,040 --> 00:28:27,760 There's another scene, which is, you know, 2 good things pulling 507 00:28:27,760 --> 00:28:29,480 on me. I have my wife, I have my 508 00:28:29,480 --> 00:28:30,920 learning, I have kids, I have this. 509 00:28:30,920 --> 00:28:32,680 Maybe I should clean up a little more on the House. 510 00:28:32,680 --> 00:28:35,600 All these different good things that are pulling at us that can 511 00:28:35,600 --> 00:28:38,600 also form its own stress. So anything else to add about 512 00:28:38,760 --> 00:28:41,000 addressing those types of feelings, which I personally 513 00:28:41,000 --> 00:28:42,560 feel quite often? Yeah. 514 00:28:42,640 --> 00:28:47,160 Look, the first, the first is to be clear that you know what my 515 00:28:47,160 --> 00:28:51,400 values are. And so you know, if sometimes 516 00:28:51,400 --> 00:28:56,360 for yeshiva guys where yeshiva is all a number, once discussed 517 00:28:56,360 --> 00:28:59,120 with my mom, who is also a psychologist, discussed with my 518 00:28:59,120 --> 00:29:05,240 mom the Mishnah of of not being Marba Sikha and the Ishto Amru 519 00:29:05,560 --> 00:29:08,960 Kavakoma, etcetera. So my mom was a little disturbed 520 00:29:08,960 --> 00:29:12,040 by the Mishna and we were in discussion about it when I was 521 00:29:12,040 --> 00:29:14,560 young. And then, but my mom, in her 522 00:29:14,560 --> 00:29:17,240 wisdom, she she wasn't talking to me in general about talking 523 00:29:17,240 --> 00:29:18,400 with the girls when I was single. 524 00:29:18,400 --> 00:29:21,320 Or she said, you have to understand that, you know, when 525 00:29:21,320 --> 00:29:24,360 you're married, like part of this cemented marriage is like 526 00:29:24,440 --> 00:29:26,760 conversation. It's, it's not all just like 527 00:29:26,800 --> 00:29:28,160 talkless about something, you know. 528 00:29:28,240 --> 00:29:32,080 So sometimes coming out of yeshiva or yeshiva's kind of 529 00:29:32,080 --> 00:29:37,080 mindset, there's a sense of, you know, things being bittle Taro, 530 00:29:37,080 --> 00:29:38,880 things being like, I really I shouldn't have to. 531 00:29:39,760 --> 00:29:43,560 And so I think the first step is just recognition from myself or 532 00:29:43,560 --> 00:29:47,560 else speaking with a wise Rebbe or friend or whatever and 533 00:29:47,560 --> 00:29:51,360 understanding that that Aluva Alu like, you know, this isn't a 534 00:29:51,480 --> 00:29:53,800 this is a really important value and this is a really important 535 00:29:53,800 --> 00:29:55,960 value. And so it's not that I'm being 536 00:29:55,960 --> 00:29:58,480 pulled away, it's that I've competing values and that and 537 00:29:58,480 --> 00:30:04,320 that's difficult. Secondly, is is Seder meaning 538 00:30:04,680 --> 00:30:07,640 sometimes when we're single, when we're younger, etcetera, we 539 00:30:07,640 --> 00:30:10,400 can just kind of like hop things here and stop things there and 540 00:30:10,400 --> 00:30:13,680 it just kind of kind of works. As we become parents and life 541 00:30:13,680 --> 00:30:18,240 becomes busy and time becomes time becomes less available. 542 00:30:18,240 --> 00:30:21,240 Sometimes it's becomes more important to find ways to 543 00:30:21,240 --> 00:30:27,040 organize my time so that I know when I'm doing, you know, 544 00:30:27,040 --> 00:30:29,920 different things that you can't be rigid about it because it 545 00:30:29,920 --> 00:30:35,000 doesn't work to, to say, I know Khalilah, but I, I know the kid 546 00:30:35,000 --> 00:30:37,560 just fell down the stairs, but my traverse is waiting for me in 547 00:30:37,560 --> 00:30:40,840 the basement. That doesn't, that doesn't work. 548 00:30:40,840 --> 00:30:43,480 So he needs flexibility. But still with no flexibility, 549 00:30:43,840 --> 00:30:48,440 having some kind of seder can and the other part of his 550 00:30:48,440 --> 00:30:52,720 psychological work on being able to let go, meaning being able 551 00:30:53,080 --> 00:30:56,760 to, to kind of mindfully engage in what it is that I'm doing and 552 00:30:56,760 --> 00:31:01,200 let go. I remember who it was Roshiva, 553 00:31:01,320 --> 00:31:04,200 this is Alma Meltzer. He's talking about Revadia 554 00:31:04,240 --> 00:31:08,440 Levine. I think that's what it was at A 555 00:31:08,760 --> 00:31:14,880 at a Shiva home and and said, you know, he was he said, you 556 00:31:14,880 --> 00:31:18,320 know, when when you're there, feels like you're just there and 557 00:31:18,320 --> 00:31:20,040 present. I'm like, you know, I'm paying a 558 00:31:20,040 --> 00:31:23,120 visit and I'm getting ready to go, you know, to my go back to 559 00:31:23,120 --> 00:31:27,160 learn or go back to. So there's an art and a capacity 560 00:31:27,560 --> 00:31:31,760 of being able to learn to be mindfully present in whatever it 561 00:31:31,760 --> 00:31:34,800 is that I'm currently doing. And to the extent that I #1 562 00:31:34,800 --> 00:31:39,360 value it and give myself permission and allow myself to 563 00:31:39,720 --> 00:31:41,920 then really be present where I am. 564 00:31:42,040 --> 00:31:46,480 It can help to be less in a place of constant tension of, 565 00:31:46,480 --> 00:31:49,760 you know, of, of, of thinking about the other thing while I'm 566 00:31:49,760 --> 00:31:52,160 doing, while I'm doing this. And it goes both directions. 567 00:31:52,160 --> 00:31:54,680 It goes direction of of I'm with my family, but you know, I 568 00:31:54,680 --> 00:31:56,560 should be learning or whatever. But it comes to the other 569 00:31:56,560 --> 00:32:00,240 direction of I'm learning, but, but I'm feeling like, you know, 570 00:32:00,680 --> 00:32:02,120 I know I need to get home soon or whatever. 571 00:32:02,120 --> 00:32:06,160 So that's about, you know, kind of personal psychological work 572 00:32:06,160 --> 00:32:09,360 with a therapist or just with oneself on being able to allow 573 00:32:09,360 --> 00:32:11,680 oneself to be more mindfully present and whatever it is that 574 00:32:11,680 --> 00:32:14,080 I'm currently doing. Those are a couple ideas. 575 00:32:14,960 --> 00:32:16,640 OK, I appreciate that. We have a few more topics that I 576 00:32:16,640 --> 00:32:18,440 want to hit on with the limited time available. 577 00:32:18,640 --> 00:32:21,080 You know, we are coming up on Pesach and it's a time, you 578 00:32:21,080 --> 00:32:23,160 know, talking about stress, there's certainly no shortage of 579 00:32:23,160 --> 00:32:25,560 stress involved in many homes around Pesach, whether it's the 580 00:32:25,560 --> 00:32:27,680 cleaning, the preparation, say, or night itself. 581 00:32:27,840 --> 00:32:30,360 There's a lot of demands, you know, paternal demands on 582 00:32:30,480 --> 00:32:32,680 getting this clean and then getting this done by Katsos and 583 00:32:32,680 --> 00:32:35,200 all those things. So any sort of practical tips 584 00:32:35,280 --> 00:32:37,840 for those who want to experience their pre Pesach and their 585 00:32:37,840 --> 00:32:40,520 Pesach in the state of serenity and joy as much as possible? 586 00:32:40,520 --> 00:32:43,560 Some class ante, which I know is maybe surprising to even think 587 00:32:43,560 --> 00:32:44,760 about with all the stress going on. 588 00:32:44,760 --> 00:32:47,320 But some of the key tips that you've sort of developed or seen 589 00:32:47,360 --> 00:32:49,560 to help people navigate this time and their mental health, 590 00:32:49,640 --> 00:32:51,760 yeah. Look, first, Khazaat, you just 591 00:32:51,760 --> 00:32:55,160 love them all, OK, Sharis need new and you know, when it comes 592 00:32:55,160 --> 00:32:59,480 to cleaning and also, you know, also things that things at the 593 00:32:59,480 --> 00:33:01,160 same time, but special when it comes to cleaning. 594 00:33:01,160 --> 00:33:09,080 It's important also to #1 have a rug and know what is actually, 595 00:33:09,160 --> 00:33:11,680 you know, what I should be doing in terms of cleaning. 596 00:33:11,680 --> 00:33:17,400 And to the extent that a person has Matteo to anxiety or to OCD, 597 00:33:17,400 --> 00:33:20,200 which we haven't discussed, but separate discussion that it's 598 00:33:20,200 --> 00:33:22,160 important all the more important. 599 00:33:22,160 --> 00:33:25,960 Sometimes people like that will gravitate to a more intense rug. 600 00:33:25,960 --> 00:33:29,040 But it's really important for a person with some of those Matteo 601 00:33:29,040 --> 00:33:31,960 to have a rug who really understands psychology and can 602 00:33:31,960 --> 00:33:35,080 address things for that particular person, but to know 603 00:33:35,120 --> 00:33:37,800 what the obligations are and what the obligations are not. 604 00:33:38,400 --> 00:33:41,320 This also comes up in couples issues in terms of, you know, it 605 00:33:41,520 --> 00:33:45,000 can be the husband too, but more often the wife who wants to do 606 00:33:45,000 --> 00:33:46,600 massive spring cleaning and the like. 607 00:33:46,600 --> 00:33:48,960 So to know that it's not obligatory is important. 608 00:33:49,240 --> 00:33:52,120 On the other hand, for the husband, you know, if you know 609 00:33:52,120 --> 00:33:55,560 that that that's what your wife needs to do, even though it's 610 00:33:55,560 --> 00:33:57,440 not halacha. There's also an issue of 611 00:33:57,440 --> 00:34:00,680 acceptance and not being in a three decade fight about, you 612 00:34:00,680 --> 00:34:02,600 know, whether we do spray cleaning or not, if it's going 613 00:34:02,600 --> 00:34:05,640 to end up happening anyway, of being able to move past it and 614 00:34:05,640 --> 00:34:09,679 accept and then try to figure out how we balance that within 615 00:34:09,719 --> 00:34:12,000 and maybe start the process early or whatever it is. 616 00:34:12,000 --> 00:34:19,000 And the and some of these things we get into OCD and with OCD 617 00:34:19,080 --> 00:34:21,800 really needs to be a Rob involved who gives you clear 618 00:34:21,800 --> 00:34:26,320 guidelines because OCD kicks in very strongly when there is room 619 00:34:26,320 --> 00:34:28,760 for doubt. And when it comes to cleaning 620 00:34:28,760 --> 00:34:32,520 for Pesach, I mean, that's like that's like, you know, that's 621 00:34:32,520 --> 00:34:34,440 like the ultimate and to slim junior rug. 622 00:34:34,440 --> 00:34:36,040 We'll give you very clear guidelines. 623 00:34:36,040 --> 00:34:40,920 I worked with guys with OCD surrounding Nikitos, you know, 624 00:34:41,440 --> 00:34:43,840 cleaning themselves in the bathroom, you know, especially 625 00:34:43,840 --> 00:34:45,760 before Tefilla or where it's Lahab deal. 626 00:34:45,760 --> 00:34:48,880 You know, putting on filling and have had rebuttin who've given 627 00:34:48,880 --> 00:34:51,360 them sock, you know, in the bathroom. 628 00:34:52,040 --> 00:34:55,159 Pardon me for the graphicness, but you wipe, you wipe for 629 00:34:55,199 --> 00:34:58,680 maximum 2 minutes and and you're out of there not 15 minutes at 2 630 00:34:58,680 --> 00:35:01,400 minutes and you're out of there chilling. 631 00:35:01,400 --> 00:35:05,600 You know, you adjust your chilling for for 10 seconds, it 632 00:35:05,600 --> 00:35:07,920 hit the right spot, you're good, you move, you move on. 633 00:35:08,440 --> 00:35:12,400 Some people need that degree of direction when it comes to, to 634 00:35:12,400 --> 00:35:15,000 cleaning of how much time they can actually devote to it and 635 00:35:15,000 --> 00:35:18,840 then and then move on. But above all of this, I, I 636 00:35:18,840 --> 00:35:23,160 think it's really about I once heard there's a psychologist 637 00:35:23,160 --> 00:35:28,280 from Usuali and Dr. Al Khannan Adler who's spoken to Veganiel 638 00:35:28,320 --> 00:35:30,960 and he spoke about you're speaking to people mostly my 639 00:35:30,960 --> 00:35:36,280 age, my generation, and, and describing the difference that 640 00:35:36,440 --> 00:35:40,400 my generation was a generation of halachic rebellion against 641 00:35:40,400 --> 00:35:42,640 their parents. That is to say that, you know, 642 00:35:42,920 --> 00:35:46,160 we know better because, you know, we observe halacha better 643 00:35:46,160 --> 00:35:49,240 than the, you know, we, the 50 year olds better than than the 644 00:35:49,240 --> 00:35:54,280 80 year olds did that the other generations rebellion in Israel. 645 00:35:54,280 --> 00:35:59,120 I think maybe in America to some degree most of Israel is one of 646 00:36:00,240 --> 00:36:05,440 is 1 of spirituality meaning in Israel especially you know in 647 00:36:05,440 --> 00:36:08,960 the Telomee world of Cork etcetera, there's plenty of and 648 00:36:08,960 --> 00:36:12,480 Breslow, plenty of Hasidis that has come into into our world. 649 00:36:12,520 --> 00:36:15,520 Even in America you have the Kurdish phenomenon etcetera. 650 00:36:16,520 --> 00:36:21,040 And so there's a sense and there's an understanding that 651 00:36:21,080 --> 00:36:26,160 Kiyo mitzvos is also about meaning and connection and 652 00:36:26,160 --> 00:36:28,600 passion. And so I think it might have 653 00:36:28,600 --> 00:36:31,240 been the towards Nemo talked about the difference between 654 00:36:31,240 --> 00:36:34,880 Rakhine and then at sea of at the sea of Rakhine was then we 655 00:36:34,880 --> 00:36:39,160 caught on the Shilin and the sea of was King Majesty at at the 656 00:36:39,160 --> 00:36:40,640 Seder. I leaned a little bit in the 657 00:36:40,640 --> 00:36:46,040 latter direction, but you know, I I think that giving oneself 658 00:36:46,040 --> 00:36:50,400 time to dedicate oneself before Pesach, the nachat not not not 659 00:36:50,760 --> 00:36:55,040 not Eric Pesach, but the nachat to preparing for one seder. 660 00:36:55,440 --> 00:36:59,080 Yeah, somehow cause Pesach. But as much of things that I 661 00:36:59,080 --> 00:37:02,640 want to talk about at the Seder this to parents within reason of 662 00:37:02,640 --> 00:37:04,240 what is going to work for your kids. 663 00:37:05,480 --> 00:37:09,080 But if you're not at your Seder then with your cover Rusa in the 664 00:37:09,080 --> 00:37:11,800 weeks leading up to it and on or whatever. 665 00:37:12,160 --> 00:37:14,440 But to really connect to the spirit of the day and what it 666 00:37:14,440 --> 00:37:18,440 means and to the extent that one is not 90% of ones learning, 667 00:37:18,440 --> 00:37:23,280 focusing on on halacha, it's more likely that your mind is 668 00:37:23,280 --> 00:37:25,600 going to be in a place where you can move beyond that. 669 00:37:25,640 --> 00:37:27,800 And we also have to say that we go to the same thing, which, you 670 00:37:27,840 --> 00:37:30,880 know, in terms of the issue of Sheeran and people being Lahood. 671 00:37:30,880 --> 00:37:34,640 So first of all, to tap into, you know, whether it's casitas 672 00:37:34,640 --> 00:37:37,840 or just, you know, even lipfish, lipfish cabanas are nice 673 00:37:38,520 --> 00:37:41,240 thoughts about, you know, the meaning, the meaning of Mata 674 00:37:41,240 --> 00:37:44,120 etcetera. Before I lean left and not just, 675 00:37:44,120 --> 00:37:46,760 you know, just thinking about how many bites I'm going to 676 00:37:46,760 --> 00:37:49,600 finish this Mata and you know, and the likes. 677 00:37:50,360 --> 00:37:53,120 Those are some things that I think could be helpful, amazing 678 00:37:53,120 --> 00:37:55,360 and I. Think, you know, it's a holiday 679 00:37:55,360 --> 00:37:57,400 also have questions so that some of the big questions they have 680 00:37:57,400 --> 00:38:00,040 nowadays for, for me, you know, if I don't have 4 good ones, but 681 00:38:00,040 --> 00:38:02,760 at least two, you know, number one is why the lechem only is so 682 00:38:02,760 --> 00:38:06,480 expensive and #2 is why the holiday of freedom feels so 683 00:38:06,480 --> 00:38:08,800 enslaving and so difficult. So I appreciate you getting 684 00:38:08,800 --> 00:38:10,960 some, some perspective on that question as well. 685 00:38:10,960 --> 00:38:13,520 And, and hopefully everyone should have a, a hot cut or 686 00:38:13,520 --> 00:38:15,960 smack. We do have one more, you know, 687 00:38:15,960 --> 00:38:18,480 question that I we have to talk about all the time. 688 00:38:18,480 --> 00:38:21,320 You know, we didn't episode show of him as a time where people 689 00:38:21,320 --> 00:38:24,760 talk about can you show Ashmere Sinai and the summers coming up 690 00:38:24,760 --> 00:38:26,520 in a few months, we'll hopefully do an episode there as well. 691 00:38:26,800 --> 00:38:31,680 It's really a constant struggle, a constant issue that we face as 692 00:38:31,760 --> 00:38:35,680 men in the 21st century of pornography. 693 00:38:35,680 --> 00:38:37,840 All those things and that you've thought about a lot. 694 00:38:37,840 --> 00:38:40,640 You recently come out with a Javert, a Contra, say, a 695 00:38:40,640 --> 00:38:42,720 notebook, a pamphlet, which I've gone through is very, very 696 00:38:42,720 --> 00:38:44,280 impressive. You know, that doesn't need 697 00:38:44,280 --> 00:38:45,360 mascara, but I really enjoyed it. 698 00:38:45,480 --> 00:38:47,520 It's called Light in the darkness and we'll put a link in 699 00:38:47,520 --> 00:38:48,880 the shows. Everyone can go there right now 700 00:38:48,880 --> 00:38:51,760 and download it and and and grow from it and enjoy it. 701 00:38:52,080 --> 00:38:54,320 So maybe just for the listeners, maybe give a little bit of a 702 00:38:54,320 --> 00:38:57,600 brief overview of what you felt was missing in the discourse 703 00:38:57,720 --> 00:38:59,480 around this topic, which you know, is a topic. 704 00:38:59,480 --> 00:39:01,680 People are way more aware of it bar Hashem. 705 00:39:01,680 --> 00:39:04,240 And now it's not necessarily a hush hush, I don't think as 706 00:39:04,320 --> 00:39:06,080 anymore. But what were we trying to 707 00:39:06,080 --> 00:39:08,040 contribute to this discourse with this pamphlet that you 708 00:39:08,040 --> 00:39:10,120 wrote about about Kedusha? So. 709 00:39:10,720 --> 00:39:13,640 Thank you for making room. I know the podcast today is not 710 00:39:13,640 --> 00:39:15,560 about that. So I'm glad you made a little 711 00:39:15,560 --> 00:39:19,200 bit of room for it. Because look, one of the things 712 00:39:19,240 --> 00:39:22,280 that I realized I learned this from mentor of mine, Doctor 713 00:39:22,280 --> 00:39:25,920 Roman Blumenthal way back is that psychologists have he's a 714 00:39:25,920 --> 00:39:29,840 he's a person psychologist, therapist also did a lot in the 715 00:39:29,840 --> 00:39:32,280 community, built sort of important things. 716 00:39:32,800 --> 00:39:35,760 One of the special opportunities that a psychologist that 717 00:39:35,760 --> 00:39:40,120 therapists have is you get windows into people's worlds and 718 00:39:40,120 --> 00:39:44,600 you have a sense of what's going on in the community in a way 719 00:39:44,600 --> 00:39:47,760 that just, you know, walking around being in shul like you 720 00:39:47,760 --> 00:39:50,160 don't you don't have any way of knowing what's actually going 721 00:39:50,160 --> 00:39:51,560 on, what kind of things are going on. 722 00:39:51,920 --> 00:39:54,040 There are less being directly talked about. 723 00:39:54,040 --> 00:39:58,760 And so sitting over the last decades and my beginning of my 724 00:39:58,760 --> 00:40:03,000 practice, you know, more or less coincided with the beginnings of 725 00:40:03,040 --> 00:40:06,320 Internet and that that smartphones and. 726 00:40:08,120 --> 00:40:12,600 You know, just, I see it, I work with young men so in particular, 727 00:40:12,920 --> 00:40:18,840 so I've just seen the amount of struggle and suffering that that 728 00:40:18,840 --> 00:40:23,320 people have and each person who brings it up brings it up. 729 00:40:23,680 --> 00:40:25,960 You know, I, I, people don't bring it up in the intake. 730 00:40:25,960 --> 00:40:29,120 I, I ask about these things directly, but when people bring 731 00:40:29,120 --> 00:40:33,960 it out, they'll say it with kind of a little hesitant, usually a 732 00:40:33,960 --> 00:40:38,480 little embarrassed. Well, yeah, I, you know, and the 733 00:40:38,480 --> 00:40:41,320 vibe is like, what's wrong with me? 734 00:40:41,320 --> 00:40:43,360 And you're probably going to think I'm disgusting. 735 00:40:43,360 --> 00:40:47,000 And, you know, and I have to break the news to the person 736 00:40:47,000 --> 00:40:51,000 that I have this conversation with, you know, with basically 737 00:40:51,160 --> 00:40:54,160 almost every new male client that I, that I work with. 738 00:40:54,160 --> 00:40:57,520 Like this is I said, you're very you're unique and very important 739 00:40:57,520 --> 00:41:00,600 to me, but the things you describing are not unique in the 740 00:41:00,600 --> 00:41:03,760 slightest. And so you know it. 741 00:41:03,760 --> 00:41:06,480 It just became so apparent to me that so many people are 742 00:41:06,480 --> 00:41:10,200 struggling with these things and for better and for worse. 743 00:41:10,440 --> 00:41:14,200 Show of them, which in its core had nothing to do with Kedusha 744 00:41:14,200 --> 00:41:18,560 issues, but show them over time historically developed into a 745 00:41:18,560 --> 00:41:21,880 period of time to work on Shamiro Shenai and Shamiro 746 00:41:21,880 --> 00:41:28,760 Sabris, which essentially is great like any other mitzvah to 747 00:41:28,760 --> 00:41:30,200 try to be on the dark take about something. 748 00:41:30,200 --> 00:41:32,520 So there's a period of time set aside to that. 749 00:41:32,600 --> 00:41:36,400 The problem is the the fallout. And so there are there's 750 00:41:36,400 --> 00:41:39,040 writings out there and there's pamphlets etcetera that, you 751 00:41:39,040 --> 00:41:41,840 know, encouraging people to work on during showroom on these 752 00:41:41,840 --> 00:41:45,080 things. But but and there are assorted 753 00:41:45,600 --> 00:41:50,360 there are sort of things that I found over the years written 754 00:41:51,160 --> 00:41:54,640 that touched on guidance and psychological components of, of 755 00:41:54,960 --> 00:41:56,720 people suffering regarding this etcetera. 756 00:41:56,720 --> 00:42:00,800 But I didn't find one the concentrated source that I 757 00:42:00,800 --> 00:42:03,800 thought dealt from a psychological perspective with 758 00:42:03,800 --> 00:42:07,760 what people need to know and think about and understand in 759 00:42:07,760 --> 00:42:12,920 order to both work on trying to get to a better place with their 760 00:42:12,920 --> 00:42:14,480 Shmurata. And I am a Shmurata breed and at 761 00:42:14,480 --> 00:42:17,000 the same time to be in a psychologically healthy place 762 00:42:17,360 --> 00:42:21,640 and not, not, not killing themselves about it, not 763 00:42:21,640 --> 00:42:24,960 struggling, not falling into depression, not sitting in 764 00:42:24,960 --> 00:42:26,960 addiction. So that's the purpose. 765 00:42:26,960 --> 00:42:31,080 And my hope is right now it's just digital happy for people to 766 00:42:31,080 --> 00:42:33,480 send it far and wide for it to help whoever can help. 767 00:42:33,920 --> 00:42:37,360 And my e-mail address is in there waiting for collecting 768 00:42:37,360 --> 00:42:41,200 whatever feedback people have about things to change or things 769 00:42:41,200 --> 00:42:44,840 that are missing there. And then after I get sufficient 770 00:42:44,840 --> 00:42:49,880 feedback, I'll, I'll possibly print hard copy, hard copy of it 771 00:42:49,880 --> 00:42:52,200 as well. Also hoping for those of us in 772 00:42:52,200 --> 00:42:56,280 Israel hoping to translate it into Hebrew for for our young 773 00:42:56,280 --> 00:42:59,160 men over here as well. And I guess one follow up 774 00:42:59,160 --> 00:43:01,360 question on that, you know, it talks about married men. 775 00:43:01,360 --> 00:43:04,080 So I'm, you know, my very bad bots understanding is that I'm 776 00:43:04,080 --> 00:43:06,520 assuming that some of the struggles are less when you have 777 00:43:06,720 --> 00:43:09,720 a, you know, a mutter outlet for for the strongest and most 778 00:43:09,720 --> 00:43:12,560 passionate desires. You know, on the other hand, the 779 00:43:12,640 --> 00:43:15,080 stakes are that much higher. Even, you know, what might be 780 00:43:15,080 --> 00:43:17,480 considered as you about her. You know, a small issue could 781 00:43:17,480 --> 00:43:20,400 become a much bigger issue or much more touchy issue when 782 00:43:20,400 --> 00:43:21,960 there's obviously the faithfulness and the 783 00:43:21,960 --> 00:43:23,640 relationship with a spouse in mind. 784 00:43:23,640 --> 00:43:26,720 So you know, big adult, what do you see are sort of the main 785 00:43:26,720 --> 00:43:28,760 things that the married men should keep keep in mind with 786 00:43:28,760 --> 00:43:31,880 regards to this topic. That's a good question. 787 00:43:31,880 --> 00:43:34,400 I talked about it in the in the booklet and people should, if 788 00:43:34,400 --> 00:43:36,840 they're interested in your question, they should read there 789 00:43:36,840 --> 00:43:40,520 because I don't want to talk for a long time, but our regular has 790 00:43:40,560 --> 00:43:42,360 look, everything you said is correct. 791 00:43:42,360 --> 00:43:45,680 It's less of an issue, but it's not a it's not a non issue. 792 00:43:45,800 --> 00:43:49,040 Look for for people who came into marriage, you know, 793 00:43:49,440 --> 00:43:53,040 addicted or semi addicted and have continued to struggle with 794 00:43:53,040 --> 00:43:55,880 it. They need to get help for for 795 00:43:55,880 --> 00:44:01,200 people who are not in that category, but from time to time 796 00:44:01,200 --> 00:44:03,080 have, you know, what they call a Nephila. 797 00:44:03,800 --> 00:44:06,280 Hopefully they've talked about this with their wife in the 798 00:44:06,280 --> 00:44:09,680 past, maybe even before marriage that, you know, they have a 799 00:44:09,680 --> 00:44:11,880 certain level of struggle, struggle with this. 800 00:44:13,000 --> 00:44:15,280 Women nowadays need to also be in the know. 801 00:44:15,640 --> 00:44:19,360 I talked about this metabolism as well, which is that, you 802 00:44:19,360 --> 00:44:22,240 know, women can't be totally ignorant about the fact that 803 00:44:22,240 --> 00:44:24,360 this kind of stuff goes on with guys just to understand what 804 00:44:24,360 --> 00:44:27,760 it's what it's about South in a in a best case, in a good case. 805 00:44:27,800 --> 00:44:32,040 On the one hand, a a wife doesn't need to know details 806 00:44:32,040 --> 00:44:34,920 about everything. You know, if once a year a guy 807 00:44:34,920 --> 00:44:39,080 slips, it's a mixed bag going to do V Dewey to 1's to 1's wife, 808 00:44:39,120 --> 00:44:42,680 because to some degree your wife might just prefer not to know 809 00:44:43,040 --> 00:44:45,040 another hand. If a person has had this 810 00:44:45,040 --> 00:44:48,200 struggle in the past and their and their wife knows, but you 811 00:44:48,200 --> 00:44:50,200 know, it seems better, but they're struggling with it 812 00:44:50,200 --> 00:44:54,040 again, etcetera. You can't get into a deep hole 813 00:44:54,360 --> 00:44:57,440 of extendedly hiding a real struggle that you're having from 814 00:44:57,440 --> 00:44:59,200 your wife. There has to be discussion about 815 00:44:59,200 --> 00:45:01,000 it. It's not good generally 816 00:45:01,000 --> 00:45:02,960 speaking, when the wife is the policeman. 817 00:45:02,960 --> 00:45:05,720 So they will have their wife set up as you know on the account to 818 00:45:06,120 --> 00:45:09,000 the filter or whatever. Like it's not a great dynamic 819 00:45:09,000 --> 00:45:12,520 having wife be the policeman. These are things to good 820 00:45:12,520 --> 00:45:17,800 communication can address, like when it gets complicated, it 821 00:45:17,800 --> 00:45:22,600 needs couples work to to help people get through get get 822 00:45:22,600 --> 00:45:25,000 through it. And to the extent that it, this 823 00:45:25,000 --> 00:45:27,040 is not what it's all about. It's about emotional stuff, 824 00:45:27,040 --> 00:45:28,280 etcetera. But to the extent that there's 825 00:45:28,280 --> 00:45:33,800 an element of it which has to do with with with sexual 826 00:45:33,800 --> 00:45:36,640 frustration, that's about communication with one's spouse 827 00:45:36,640 --> 00:45:40,200 and one's intimacy should be in a place where both people have 828 00:45:40,200 --> 00:45:44,080 satisfaction and sholem biases in a in a good place. 829 00:45:44,080 --> 00:45:46,280 So there's a lot more to say, but that's all right. 830 00:45:46,280 --> 00:45:47,760 I'll ask. OK, I. 831 00:45:47,760 --> 00:45:50,800 Appreciate the teacher and the and again, the the link will be 832 00:45:50,800 --> 00:45:52,160 in the show. How much you definitely go and 833 00:45:52,160 --> 00:45:55,760 check it out and, and hopefully you'll find it illuminating, as 834 00:45:55,760 --> 00:45:57,480 illuminating as I did. So thank you for that. 835 00:45:57,480 --> 00:46:00,360 Let's go to our rapid fire. 3 short questions, three hopefully 836 00:46:00,360 --> 00:46:02,360 short answers. We have a few more winter 837 00:46:02,360 --> 00:46:04,120 Shabbat here in Israel before the clock change. 838 00:46:04,240 --> 00:46:06,240 So on the long Friday nights, what do you like to do at that 839 00:46:06,240 --> 00:46:11,840 time? I I mean talk with family a 840 00:46:11,840 --> 00:46:15,560 little bit after the meal. I do love Cazar on Chavez, 841 00:46:15,560 --> 00:46:17,720 things that I learned during the week and I go to sleep early 842 00:46:17,720 --> 00:46:21,040 because I wake up for the 630 Ninion on Chavez. 843 00:46:22,360 --> 00:46:25,520 And is there a particular safer on Parsha Savoor that you find 844 00:46:25,520 --> 00:46:28,640 to be the most compelling from a psychological perspective? 845 00:46:28,760 --> 00:46:31,560 Great question. Look, I, I have a little bit of 846 00:46:31,560 --> 00:46:35,280 a bifurcation in me that I, it took me a long time to connect 847 00:46:35,280 --> 00:46:37,880 Torah and psychology on the learning level. 848 00:46:37,880 --> 00:46:41,640 So I have a lot of spine that I, that I, that I love. 849 00:46:41,880 --> 00:46:47,840 Is there anyone that I that I love, I love psychologically? 850 00:46:47,840 --> 00:46:51,600 I don't know that there is serious one Rev psychologist 851 00:46:51,600 --> 00:46:53,240 also. He writes into our tidbits and 852 00:46:53,240 --> 00:46:55,160 he writes psychological stuff, which I find good. 853 00:46:55,160 --> 00:46:59,280 Some of her Sacks's writings I think have have psychological 854 00:46:59,280 --> 00:47:01,720 depths up to them and. Finally, if you were forced to 855 00:47:01,720 --> 00:47:04,360 quit your psychological practice, find some new job in 856 00:47:04,360 --> 00:47:06,720 new industry, maybe saying Eugene you're doing as a kid, 857 00:47:06,800 --> 00:47:08,600 what would that be? I'd probably be a more. 858 00:47:09,080 --> 00:47:12,760 Go do the two year more. Of course it's a tour guide in 859 00:47:12,760 --> 00:47:13,960 Israel. I love, I said. 860 00:47:14,040 --> 00:47:16,800 I love history. I love tooling around. 861 00:47:16,880 --> 00:47:18,960 I probably probably go be a tour guide. 862 00:47:19,840 --> 00:47:20,360 Amazing. I. 863 00:47:20,360 --> 00:47:23,040 Think the last person and only other person to ever give that 864 00:47:23,040 --> 00:47:25,480 answer to this question was Rabbi Shalam Rosner, someone who 865 00:47:25,560 --> 00:47:26,960 you and I both know for many, many years. 866 00:47:27,120 --> 00:47:29,160 So I'm glad that you guys have that in common. 867 00:47:29,440 --> 00:47:31,360 Doctor Jan, thank you so much for joining us, for all these 868 00:47:31,360 --> 00:47:34,080 great conversations here and, you know, being a source of 869 00:47:34,080 --> 00:47:36,160 inspiration and guidance for me off the podcast as well. 870 00:47:36,160 --> 00:47:38,240 So thank you for that and we look forward to staying in 871 00:47:38,240 --> 00:47:41,560 touch. Thank you scroll on this podcast 872 00:47:41,560 --> 00:47:44,160 and for all the good stuff you're doing and stay safe and 873 00:47:44,160 --> 00:47:46,480 well and start to vote to everybody. 874 00:47:47,080 --> 00:47:47,960 I mean. I mean.